← The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein
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- [00:00]
Allyson Lerness
So if you look at a best selling bag, you're going to see that bag probably in all the key cities on a certain kind of customer. However, the way it's worn and the way it styles differs. It differs hugely, right? While people can say, oh, but you know, I really miss the days when like not everything was globalized and there weren't the same stores here, the way in which fashion is interpreted I think really does vary all around the world. And that's what I find super exciting. I love, I love looking at what people are wearing or how they're wearing it.
- [00:30]
Dan Rubenstein
Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life. I might make podcasts about architecture and collecting and wax nostalgic about the golden age of magazines, but once upon a time, yours truly was a grunt. In the early days of the dot com bubble. We're talking Y2K era, years before the iPhone, much less YouTube or even Instagram. One of the reasons I made the switch to the realm of print is that things like art, design and especially fashion didn't feel remotely compatible with the digital realm. The concept of buying a luxury product online, that was totally out of the question. To watch the fashion industry over the years transform itself has been remarkable to behold. That's why I'm so excited to talk to my guest today. Allyson Learnes, the CEO of the UX Netaporte Group, better known for its two flagship E commerce platforms, Net A Porter and its menswear sister or brother site. Mr. Porter, Alison is someone who's been on the front lines of the digital transformation of the fashion industry and she has terabytes of wisdom to share about how it all happened, how global tastes are shifting, how the pandemic changed things or didn't. The struggles of creatives trying to work the so called fashion system today and more. I caught up with the American born high powered executive from her office in London to chat about how she got started in the business, the future of this crazy industry, and the lessons learned about a career in the digital trenches.
- [02:15]
Unknown
So I read that you were born in New York, but I don't really know much about your early life. And was fashion like a big part of your being as a young child?
- [02:25]
Allyson Lerness
The short answer? Indirectly, yes. And I say indirectly just because my parents didn't, I didn't grow up with anyone working in the fashion industry. My mom, I think from the age, when I was. From the age of six, my mom went back to work. She'd been a schoolteacher before my sister and I were born. And then she went back to work and she went into advertising, usually covering the beauty sector, beauty accounts on the account management side. And my dad worked in the fragrance business. So you could argue there was a little bit of sort of fashion adjacent industries at play. But I think for me, my real introduction to fashion was from my mom, who had just fantastic style and loved clothes and I think really recognized the sort of empowering nature of fashion and really had great style and also never really wanted to look exactly like anyone else, was always in search of kind of special pieces or things that were a little bit different and took me along with her to stores from the time that I was little. So I think my initiation into fashion was at a store, a now legendary but long gone store named Charavari, which had opened on the Upper west side and was really responsible. The family, I think they were called the Weiss family, who launched it, were responsible for not only discovering designers, but bringing a lot of amazing now European super brands to the US I'd say as sort of my second kind of, again, sort of not direct, but certainly important interaction with fashion came back through school because I went to a girls school with a very strict uniform. And that might sound counterintuitive that that would then lead you to fashion. But for me, somehow accessorizing what I wear every day to make it a little bit different to what everyone else had became important, became a differentiator. And I think perhaps more importantly, any day that we didn't have to be in uniform. So for sports day, which we called field day, and you could wear what you wanted to, I would like lie awake at night dreaming about what I could wear. And I think really what that was about is just, I think being in such a strict environment, structural environment for school. Fashion for me was always about creativity and self expression and freedom. So that's what I always really loved. And then my only, I guess, hands on experience from a young age was my mom's friend owned a little boutique and let me do. I'm gonna, I mean, really use these words loosely. Let me do visual merchandising. I mean by it, which basically meant like pinning something on a wall. But I thought I felt very important and really enjoyed it and just loved the experience of being on the floor.
- [05:09]
Unknown
That's amazing. Well, yeah, constraints are give birth to all sorts of good creativity Whether it's a budget or a uniform or whatever it is.
- [05:18]
Allyson Lerness
Although wouldn't it be better to have a uniform than a budget?
- [05:22]
Unknown
That's true.
- [05:23]
Allyson Lerness
If only. If only.
- [05:24]
Unknown
And, you know, you study art history at Brown and for those who aren't listening, who are listening, not from the States, you know, it's a great school. So you must have been a really good student in some way, right? I mean, you know, you went to a good school that had uniform and you went to Brown. Like, you must have been a pretty good student.
- [05:38]
Allyson Lerness
Oh, thank you. I worked very hard. I was really focused and worked. I was, Yeah, I was. I was. I worked hard.
- [05:46]
Unknown
What did you. What was that like, kind of dream job for you as an art history student?
- [05:50]
Allyson Lerness
So I would say that I came out of college super happy and sad. I'd say happy because I loved really all four years there. Sad because it was. It was over. I'd like to say a bit enlightened, you know, horizons expanded, etc. And uniquely unpreprofessional in that, you know, I'd had summer jobs, which I'll come on to shortly, but I really didn't know a huge amount about the working world. Just what I had experienced through, again, summer jobs or through sort of osmosis of visiting my parents at work, essentially. I was always open to just trying things out and exploring and experimenting. I think in many ways that's why also, Brown really suited me because part of the curriculum. The curriculum is open. So you get to kind of choose to choose what you study. So I cast the net out really wide. The one thing I knew going when I began work is other than the fact that I wanted and needed a job was that I really wanted to find something that would marry business and creativity. So I looked at fashion, I looked at the Bloomingdale's training program. I looked at the magazine world, et cetera. I think my dream job, as upon graduation was let me find something in the art world. And I always had these dreams of working at a gallery. And when I graduated, the market was incredibly soft. So I took a decision then that I would keep all things art related as a sort of extracurricular pastime and an interest, but that from a work perspective, I needed to explore other industries.
- [07:25]
Unknown
And I read somewhere that during one of your summers at Brown, you worked at a Ralph Lauren in the Hamptons. Yes.
- [07:30]
Allyson Lerness
That true?
- [07:31]
Unknown
What was that like?
- [07:33]
Allyson Lerness
The best? The best, I mean. Yes. So full disclosure, it was my first summer. Was it my first. Yeah, it was my first summer after College after freshman year. And I had heard through the grapevine that Ralph Lauren was opening. It was the first store in the Hamptons, which was sort of some pretty significant importance to the brand or any brand opening up because it's such an important market where all your New York customers and tourists, etc. And I raced at the first opportunity to try and meet someone and have an interview. I had many interviews for this job. Despite it being a summer job, I was trained within an inch of my life on everything from once again, vm, managing a stockroom, receiving deliveries, how to handle the register. It was a country store, which is a concept that doesn't exist anymore, but it was based on all this sort of really old school kind of American Heritage pieces. And as part of that, we didn't want to have any kind of artificial material at the wrapping station, so no tape. So I involved managing a stop room to wrapping presents without tape and twine, which I'd love to tell you I was really great at, but that would be a lie. But what it really did, I mean, you know, my friends, I were working in law firms, they were working in investment banks. And my. I was over the moon to be on the shop floor. And it taught me so much. I mean, it taught me a lot about customers, about what people respond to, what they don't respond to, about the importance of detail of service and really what I would describe as. Not to make it sound too grand, but the sort of the theater of retail. And I remember the night before we opened and we were all the stock was behind the store in a sort of. It was like a parking space, right? Everything was all over the street and we're getting ready and it was like. And all of a sudden, you know, hours went by, everything went. And sure enough, morning came and lights up and on. We came to the stage and it was unbelievably exciting. Now, I was also a late, really late bloomer because I didn't actually apply that to my day job for some years later, but I loved it.
- [09:51]
Unknown
And before joining the current company in 2007, you had a variety of jobs in advertising and in the digital world, as well as brands like Thomas Pink. You also worked at a digital agency in those sort of early Internet days. So I'm saying what, what sort of stands out to you about that time? And I worked digitally in the dawn of the Internet before, before YouTube, before Google, before, like the late 90s.
- [10:19]
Allyson Lerness
Yeah, same.
- [10:21]
Unknown
And if you were at all in the world of like design or style or fashion or Anything that those worlds did, not really intertwined, but like looking back now, like, you know, especially in the crazy digital landscape that we have, you know, currently, like, what kind of stands out in your mind about that, that time in your career?
- [10:40]
Allyson Lerness
It felt incredibly foreign in that I was working. I mean, listen, I'd come from Saatchi and Saatchi, I'd come from Hishab de la pack, I'd come from these big sort of established corporations. I came from Disney and I deliberately made the move. You know, the Internet bubble was like expanding, expanding, almost about to burst literally at that moment. And I was a Luddite, you know, and I thought, well, hang on a second. I mean this is going to be super important. I'm curious, I know nothing about this. Let's try it. Let's go into the place that's not comfortable where some of your learnings can be applied. But I really, I remember showing up in this office and it was kind of, it was a startup but with cushion, meaning it was a startup, but it was a well invested startup. So we were, our office was like a little sort of side pocket of an advertising agency. So it's not, we weren't in someone's garage, but we were sort of in the fire escape, if you see, if you see me. But I had no idea what anyone was talking about. I mean literally, like it's, it was as if all these people were speaking younger, a different language and everyone was senior to me and everyone was younger than me. And I remember thinking like, wow, I really have a lot to learn in so many areas. It was a phenomenal experience though. My learning curve was super steep. I mean, our mission at the agency was really digital and e comm strategy for lifestyle and entertainment companies. So I knew about brand, I knew about consumer, I knew about sales. But then using this whole new platform was really fascinating. And it really, that was the company that got me to London, which then got me to lvmh, which then got me to Net a porter. So I'm forever grateful. But I just remember feeling really like a fish out of a fish out of water. And I think, you know, I talked a little bit before just about being a late bloomer. I mean you hear so much these days from. I was just actually just up doing a fireside chat at my alma mater and just from students studying fashion and they're like, whoa, how do I. What if I don't know what I want to do? And I think it took me a long time to figure out what I really wanted to do. And now people look at my CV and they're like, oh my gosh, that's so great. It's so diverse. It's. But at the time, I mean, people having just thought I was lost, like, why is she bouncing around so much? And I've just been very sort of gut driven and so that's really responsible for it.
- [13:09]
Unknown
And those digital jobs were quite, they were quite seen as risky. Right? Like it was very, it was not a sure thing, like everyone thing was kind of, you know, you're going to leave the safety of a very established industry to go into some crazy thing you couldn't even explain to most people, right?
- [13:25]
Allyson Lerness
Yes. And I think they had sort of respect and disdain simultaneously.
- [13:30]
Dan Rubenstein
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- [14:52]
Unknown
About your first role in the company, because it seems like you joined at a really critical time when things were coming together. Can you just. For people who have no concept at all, just sort of describe when you joined and what was going on at the time?
- [15:04]
Allyson Lerness
Yes, so I joined. So I joined Net a Porter in 2007 and at the time we were, let's say, the better part of 100 people. I mean, give me some room for error on that one. But give or take our HQ was, as it is today on the net, a porter side. Anyway, in London, the business had been started seven years prior. So it felt like from an E Comm player perspective, it felt then sort of quite established. With hindsight, I realized how small we were and how it was the most exciting time. I mean, the business was growing rapidly. I joined and it was a real combination of talent that had been in the business, a handful of people who had been there since the beginning. And then when I joined, I moved into a role that was vice president of sales and marketing. Marketing that was created for me just as we started to really build out further, build out the management team. And in that role, I was responsible for all of the customer touch points. So creative brand pr, marketing, personal shopping, customer care actually being. It had been in operations. It then moved to me and then it moved later on back into operations. So it was really, it was a phenomenal experience and it really from the earliest days felt like home in so many ways. One, because I loved the business model, I loved what we were doing. Everyone shared this obsession with customer as well as with product. And it was really clear our goals were universally shared and super transparent. And, you know, the growth was, was, was amazing. And it really became very quickly, like work, family, which it remained for years and years.
- [17:05]
Unknown
And like, what was that landscape like at the time? Like, who was the big competition you guys were competing against? Or was it so early that you kind of didn't have one? Is that all? Because it was.
- [17:15]
Allyson Lerness
There were always, there were always competitors. I mean, then there was. It was large, a lot of bricks and mortar. Right. So like the US department stores, in terms of players, at, at that point there was a site that was owned by LVMH called Eluxury, which was in the. I think they were just about winding down. Boo.com had just imploded.
- [17:36]
Unknown
Oh, gosh, yes.
- [17:38]
Allyson Lerness
Yeah, the year that we launched, actually. So the landscape was really different. So I think one of the main things is. Yes, in terms of. Were there lots of people out there in the universe selling luxury fashion? Absolutely. Were they selling it online? No. And so in my early years and in the earlier years of the company, there was a lot of business development involved just really knocking on doors of brands and explaining why selling to us was one a complementary exercise to their own retail efforts, but also why it was a good thing and what kind of customer we were bringing in. And when I joined, we just had the one brand. It was net a porter. Several years after we launched the Outnet, which is Our discount business. And then in 2011 we launched Mr. Porter which was really designed for the men and the Net A Porter woman's life. And before you knew it we went from one store to a group and not just a group, we also launched new categories. We launched beauty and grooming and sport. We opened up warehouses around the world, we opened in Hong Kong, we localized, we translated the sites. And in 2015 the business was merged with Yoox and so we became first we became Ucks Net A Porter and then we were really four brands. So net a Porter and Mr. Porter which targets a really high value customer base offering an editorial voice to sell luxury, fashion and style. And in the case of Yuk Sentent they're really the pioneers in off price fashion. Online and across the four stores there's tremendous reach. I mean we're just over three and a half million active customers trading in 170 odd countries and a social media following of over 8 million. So the reach is big. I mean and what's shared across all the businesses despite their different targets or their different objectives again is this just never ending focus on the customer.
- [19:50]
Unknown
And during that sort of like big wave of growth in fashion and E commerce that's like really boom time from 10 years ago to now. Like what kind of lessons do you think you learned that maybe you see as more revelatory today? Like what are you kind of being like oh there was something where we kind of really something clicked where a lesson learned that maybe kind of helped bring you into the modern times.
- [20:16]
Allyson Lerness
I'd say there's sort of a few things. One, staying on top of technology and evolution within technology. What I mean by that is everything from various platforms, apps to there's a lot out there that's super interesting and there's a lot out there that's also quite gimmicky. And really the importance of what we really learned is just the importance of keeping the customer as your touchstone. Because it was very easy, it was very easy to get excited about new product. And I say product from a tech perspective as it launched. But then if it didn't actually make your life as a customer easier, better, more interesting, create some fun, there's really no reason for it to exist. And actually it's why when we eventually launched our first app we were adamant that you were able to transact which I know sounds like completely unfathomable, that would even be a discussion today. But I remember going to all these like mobile conferences and people would say hey there's this cool app and look, here's a shoe and the thing and it can spin and you can make it red and yellow. Okay. You know, you couldn't buy it. And so, you know, actually we went to market with the first luxury fashion app. That was where you could transact and that was really, really important to us. I think it was one. And answer your question, really keeping the customer as a touchstone. I think also being really following the customer lead in terms of how they want to communicate with you. I mean, WhatsApp really has been a game changer, not just to all of us socially, but I think also in terms how customers want to hear from you and being clear that it doesn't mean that you abandon email or you get rid of all your other channels, but really investing where it's going to matter most to the end user. And then also being patient with social media. I think in the early days, a lot of businesses were squeezing social for instant return and just understanding, understanding the power of engagement and the power of followings and that how ultimately you end up with a sort of influential shopping experience that isn't always one click away, but also the impact that can have both positively and sometimes less positively.
- [22:29]
Unknown
And speaking of Mr. Porter, I remember when it first launched and those first couple of years when it was really mixing content and commerce in this really innovative way and people would constantly use it as one of the examples of digital fashion done right. And it was such a touchstone and it still is. You know, what was that like? And when you guys were putting this together, kind of did you feel like that content was really needed to make, to connect with that guy or was it just kind of the mood at the moment or, you know, how have you seen that kind of evolve, that rationale?
- [23:03]
Allyson Lerness
Yeah, I mean, content, I mean, it's crazy to think that was almost 14 years ago, but content was really been at the core of what. What we do. And I appreciate it became very much a sort of zeitgeist development in the E Comm world or certainly in the retail world in recent years. But for us, we see it not as marketing. It's really a service. So it's explaining to you, the customer, how and giving you ideas and giving you inspiration. And what we found with our male customer, even, I'd say even more so somehow than with a female customer, is that he wants to. Instruction is really, you know, instruction is probably not the right word, but the sort of how, the how to wear and the context, like, I think, you know, for a very long time our most popular YouTube video was how to tie a bow tie. So it was just like, show me how, right, like show me how. Give me ideas. And then is it okay to. Can I. So it's really taking the customer by the hand. So it was incredibly important to us. I think, you know, in the early days it was, was we launched with 80 brands, we have several hundred today. It was the way in which men shopped at the beginning was, I'd say cautious. I remember seeing our first few orders because we have these screens that show the orders coming in around the business, around the offices. And the first few orders you could tell men were just like, well, either men or competitors were testing us out because we sold a lot of socks initially. Let's see if this thing works. Let's just see how this is working. And then before you knew it, the orders increased. And I think that, you know, really wanted to create, coming back to the content piece, a trusted environment and where a guy could go and see sort of his various need states addressed. So it's like, okay, I'm going, I'm a city guy, I'm going to the country. What do I wear, what do I bring? I'm a country guy going to the city. I play sports, I do this, I do that. And really identifying themselves in some way or at least someone, something relatable that really helped them in their, in their decision making process. And then again from a service perspective, making it really easy for them in terms of product, let's say 10 years ago, the customer, it was much what he was buying into. 10 years ago really was probably the high point of the sneaker zeitgeist product trend that was driving that. Of course that lasted a whole number of years. We know what happened during COVID and this sort of shift into casual and sort of maybe more accessible functional pieces. What we're starting to see now on the men's business is really, and we started to see pretty early days following Pandemic was really this move back to investment pieces and luxury, particularly on the ready to wear side. But even when we look at shoes, you know, yes, we still sell lots of sneakers, but men's formal shoes, quote unquote, hard shoes perform, you know, really, really well. But what was fascinating when we launched Mr. Porter was that, you know, even though we launched with 80 brands, which today feel small, when we, when we went to market felt like quite a bit. And there were guys who were looking for what they already owned. And I remember talking to somebody, we were speaking with somebody who tested the site and said, you guys don't have anything. And we're like, what do you mean we don't have anything? We've got 80 brands, we've got ready to wear, we've got shoes. And he said, oh no, but you don't have blah blah, which was a brand that. And it was so interesting that his perspective was because we didn't have blah blah, we had nothing. So there was a bit of education to be done just in terms of introducing men to things they didn't necessarily wear before, into newness and into this notion of curation.
- [26:57]
Unknown
Now you've got over what, how many hundreds of brands?
- [27:00]
Allyson Lerness
We've got several hundred brands now.
- [27:02]
Unknown
It's an amazing array. Yeah. And you know, your platform gives an amazing opportunity for emerging brands to be noticed or be put in the same breath or the same page page view as other more important, more established brands. Is there anyone you've worked with lately that you think we should be paying attention to? Who's, who's the hot tip?
- [27:25]
Allyson Lerness
Yeah, there's a number of newer brands that we've been working with that we're very, very excited about. I'll probably focus on women's because otherwise we might be here for longer than you have. We have recently sort of brought to market a number of newer brands which we bannered sort of new designers to know and we actually celebrated them at an event in London last month. But they're Veronic Dipiante, Better, a brand called Sassouffie and Ceylon 1884, all female, founded, all doing quite different things, some a bit more traditional, some such as better with really strong sustainability credentials, but from a product standpoint really differentiated from the rest of our assortment. Libero has also been a fantastic success for us. They're part of our 2024 Vanguard Designer Program and Vanguard is our sort of new designers mentoring program. There is a brand that was introduced to me that I adore out of New York called thank you, have a good day. Which is great. They used to be based in Brooklyn, they're now in Tribeca and just doing really interesting silhouettes out of both kind of found and end of line materials. Super, super cool. We actually just, we did a pop up on net a Porter with Jane Mail and her brand Maison Mail which she had a store called Mail Ma Wiley on Elizabeth street in the 90s which was a cult favorite and then she closed that store and reemerged years later with her own atelier and just. I've known her for years. I've Been a fan of the product for years. And it's just doing. It sort of combines the sort of 40s and the 70s aesthetic. Does really small production runs, really special. I'll stop myself there. That's not exhaustive, but that's a smattering.
- [29:34]
Unknown
You know, as someone sitting at the top of a. The tippy top of an e commerce empire. Like, what's selling today? You know, if someone. If you're at a dinner party and someone's like, what's popular today? What's selling that's surprising? Like, what's going on?
- [29:47]
Allyson Lerness
Gosh. Okay, well, what's selling and what's selling that's surprising Might not. I might disappoint you on the surprising. Possibly, but I don't know. Let's see. And I only say this because it will probably, you know, if you're speaking to other people in the sort of fashion space, it's probably pretty consistent in that luxury is selling. Now, when I say luxury, it doesn't necessarily mean the top five brands, you know, or the brand, but really products that are appealing to our most engaged customer are, you know, we're doing very well with bags, really, across a plethora of. Of brands. All the big guys you can imagine, we're also seeing players that are newer to the space, such as Totem, who are selling bags incredibly well. They have this T lock bag that really is a top performer, and they have a bucket bag. Summertime raffia bags really dominated. Louisville was really first in that space. From a shoe perspective. I'll start with women's, and then I'll head to men's, you know, ballerinas and loafers, which everyone's seeing all over the place. Alaia really owning ballerinas and loafers. We're seeing really, across a number of brands, but really, we can't keep them in stock. We're starting to see the customer. She's getting dressed up. Dresses are really working.
- [31:10]
Unknown
Because that brings up something you said with Mr. Porter was my next question was like, how are people's behaviors changing after the pandemic? And it sounds like people are becoming. They're returning to some kind of formality or they're trying to get dressed up more, even if it may not be for work. Is that kind of like the same thing?
- [31:27]
Allyson Lerness
Absolutely. I mean, we saw like, literally just after the last of the lockdowns ended, you know, our heels business on net, a Porter spiked, which is not necessarily what you would imagine, you know, because I think there was an argument for, like, once you've gone flat like you're not going back. That is not true. And so we're really starting to see that. And when I look at the sort of top designers and categories and stuff that's selling it doesn't mean it's all like super, super dressy. But you would never say it's particularly dressed down. And on men's it's these higher ticket pieces. We're selling coats and jackets like crazy, which is great. And tailoring is back which is fantastic. I mean I mentioned the sort of hard shoes which is again probably needs a rebrand because hard shoes doesn't sound, it sounds a bit health and safety, but I think not sneakers sounds orthoped sneakers and not, not sneakers and not moccasins. More formal men's shoes. So. Absolutely. And you know the end use varies. Yes, it's for office but we'll seeing tailoring being paired with jeans. So I think it's almost like this marriage of pre and post pandemic styles coming together. So it's yes, maybe I'm a bit more casual, maybe I'm not in the office every single day, but actually I'm going back to the way I dressed and maybe I'm introducing some more casual elements but I still have returned to my own sort of sartorial d. Do.
- [32:46]
Unknown
You think over time you just because you've seen the data and you've been behind the scenes like, do you think that women in say like Paris and Milan or wherever their styles over time are becoming more globalized and similar or are people still buying very different things and different colors, different kind of like in these sort of on one side of the pond or the other.
- [33:09]
Allyson Lerness
I love that question. It's not a straightforward answer in that. So if you look at a best selling bag from a universally known designer, you're going to see that bag probably in all the key cities on a certain kind of customer. Okay. And okay, fine, maybe yellow sells here, red. But the fact of the matter is you're going to see that bag so you won't be like shocked. However, the way it's worn and the way it styles differs. So it differs hugely. Right. You know, I spend a lot of time in Milan and the way in which I sort of see women's style and put things together like while riding their bike through the city is super different to what you would see in Paris, which is super different to what you would see. So there's still while people can say oh but you know, I really miss the days when like not everything was globalized, and there weren't the same stores here. The way in which fashion is interpreted, I think really does vary all around the world, and that's what I find super exciting. I love look. I love looking at what people are wearing or how they're wearing it.
- [34:12]
Unknown
And you've been, you know, you attend New York Fashion Week for a while, and you're a fixture there. And sort of beyond the obvious, looking at, like, what's new and what's being done, like, when you attend a show, like, what are you looking for in your position specifically? Like, what are you kind of, like, trying to ascertain from what you're seeing beyond? Just like, oh, that's a nice PE source.
- [34:33]
Allyson Lerness
Yeah, I think one. It's trends, okay. And sometimes it's not the sort of obvious trends, like, it's military, but it's also just what are sort of micro trends that we're seeing, you know, like, huh, shorts are everywhere. Or, huh, did you notice that there's. From a styling perspective, it's all about making this up, but it's all about a footless tight, and there's, like, something to this. And so I think it's. It's trends headline, but it's also micro trends. It really is this excitement. And there's two things I would say in terms of looking at collections. It's a gap in the market, okay? So, gosh, we've never seen anyone, you know, we've always been looking for X, and we haven't seen it addressed in this way. And no one's done a knitwear collection that does this at that price point with that style. Amazing. We're missing it. Our woman wants it, our man. We need to pick it up. And then sometimes it's just that stuff where it's like, you fall in love, and it's a wow factor. And there's this thing where you're like, whoa, I haven't seen that. I can see how that will really, really resonate with our customer. And then there's also the online piece, too, which is that, how is this going to come across visually? Sometimes, you know, we have a very on net, a porter. We have a very early adopting customer, and she would love to get her hands on things first loves Runway. And so sometimes we'll see pieces and we can sell pieces that in certain instances, the brands don't necessarily back hugely themselves because they're like, well, the audience is kind of limited. We've got the audience for it. But also we have this wonder platform with which to Sell it where color and silhouette can really pop. And I think the main question is, what is this collection doing that's different to anything else that either we've seen or that we sell to date? And how is it going to look alongside the other things? And also the litmus test is, would you tell your friend to buy it and if so, why? And so I think it's always important before the buyers pick up a new brand to be able to say, like, Dan, I've picked up this shirt brand because no other brand is made of Sea island cotton at price X. And it comes in these colors. I've never seen anything like it. And it looks great tucked or untucked, and you can travel with it. Boom. I mean, that's not the most, that's not the sexiest description, but you take my point.
- [36:41]
Dan Rubenstein
Yeah.
- [36:41]
Unknown
And so what you're saying is there are also, there are pieces that you think you can recognize and say, like, that actually would sell really well online, maybe even better online than offline.
- [36:49]
Allyson Lerness
Yeah, there's things. And also there are going to be things that are maybe a little bit, a little bit trickier. And that's also a world we'll work with brands directly and say, listen, we think this, da, da, da. But if we thought about it, have you thought about doing it this way? Because actually that might resonate a bit better.
- [37:02]
Unknown
You know, there's been a lot of stories in the media, a lot of.
- [37:05]
Dan Rubenstein
Deep dives about this, the quote unquote.
- [37:08]
Unknown
Fashion system today and the business and how many young brands are struggling and how difficult things have become. If you could weigh like a magical wand, industry wide, not just your, obviously in your own world, but like industry wide to make things a little bit better for brands like new brands to thrive and for fashion in a sort of fashion with a capital F to thrive, what would you do?
- [37:34]
Allyson Lerness
This is one that we've heard before. It's so important, however, which is really rethinking the cycle and meaning buy now. Where now. And if you explain to anyone in any other industry that when it's cold out, you can't buy coats, you know, or when it's warm out, you can't find a linen shirt because actually you would have bought it at markdown three, it's both the source and the byproduct of quite a bit of problems, I think, you know, attached to this kind of mixed up or messed up or confusing seasonality is also this crazy pressure that's put on designers just around the plethora of collections that they need to produce, which then creates all of this volume, which then creates all this inventory that then blows everything. And then you have this cycle and you have this glad of inventory. And the fact is, you know, there's a lot of stuff out there. A lot, A lot of stuff. And if we get to a place where actually we're producing the right amount at the right time of year for people to buy and we were selling and we didn't have to have tons of stock stuck into landfill, would really, really create seismic, positively seismic change.
- [38:49]
Unknown
You have a few kids, you know, that you've raised in London. Do you ever quiz them on kind of like, how old are your kids, if you don't mind me asking?
- [38:57]
Allyson Lerness
And, like, not at all. 16 and 17.
- [38:59]
Unknown
Okay. So they're in the middle of their own. Exploring their own fashion sense of style. Like when you. Girl, one girl, one boy or two girls. Okay, one girl, one boy. When it comes to things like style and that next generation, like, what are your perceptions of. Like, what are they reacting to? Like, are they. Do they perceive fashion and style the same way that maybe you did growing up or obviously they have much more greater access with the Internet than you and I, our generation ever did.
- [39:30]
Allyson Lerness
Ever. I mean. So, okay, in terms of question one, do I quiz them? Absolutely not. No. And we don't, like, talk about the fashion business over dinner. They're very curious. It's been absolutely fascinating to see their kind of style evolution, I'd say, with teen boys and just observing teen boys. On my travels and speaking to friends in other countries, there seems to be a similar ish style trajectory in terms of when it goes from hoodie street to preppy. And the age at which that switches seems to be. I was just talking to a friend of mine in New York about this. She was like, it's really weird. My sound. All of a sudden it's gotten really preppy. Do you think that's because of the show and the Menendez's? And I was. Was like, no. I said it might. I mean, no, no.
- [40:17]
Unknown
Girls is the reason.
- [40:18]
Allyson Lerness
But I was like, but no, but I've seen it, you know, as well, like a few years before. Anyway, I think it's this awareness, and I think it's particularly, I'd say TikTok fueled and just this exposure to brands and style and just awareness. They just know so much. You know, I. My daughter the other day pointed out this bag, and she was like, oh, is that. Is that the Schiaparelli bag? And I was like, what? Because Believe me, I don't talk about Schiaparelli. I mean, I love Schiaparelli, don't get me wrong. But like Schiaparelli does not come up as a family topic nor are her friends wearing Schiaparelli. Okay, so it's just this idea. Yes. Just to clarify that point importantly. No, but it's just this awareness just around so. So on the one hand, I think with teenagers, I mean it was the same I guess when we were growing up too for the most part that it's like there is a uniform. You don't really want to stand out up to a certain age. I remember having kids in the house like my son's friends and my daughter's friends and literally in one pile were a sea of white Air force ones and black north face jackets belonging to like boys. And that's just like everyone was wearing the uniform and I took a picture of it because I thought it was hilarious. And then they get a bit older and as you say, they start to find their style and like we'll hold on. Thrifting is huge. And what I find fascinating is that their go to quite often can be actually no, no, no, let me just go find that thrifted. It doesn't mean they don't want new stuff. They do. But how thrifting is very much a thing. And of course they grew up with resale being under their nose that whole generation. So they have no problem saying, oh you know what, I want some new X, I'm just going to sell this and get another one from there.
- [42:05]
Unknown
Are there he's like kind of generation or shifts something that you guys talk about at work, like is it something like, you know, like oh, like this new generation is really into thrifting and like how do we adapt before 10 years from now or five years from now, they're going to be in the working for in the workforce, they're going to be buying, they're going to be, you know, a new generation is coming in.
- [42:21]
Dan Rubenstein
How do you do you try to.
- [42:23]
Unknown
Anticipate these changes to a degree.
- [42:25]
Allyson Lerness
I mean I think if you, if you, if your radar like you, your radar should be on high, whatever the high dialed up in terms of being able to pick up. Thank you, thank you. In terms of really being clear on what this next generation of customer, what inspires them, what energizes them. I think being too knee jerk is dangerous because I think it's also remembering like are they your customer today? Do you want them to be your customer today? Are you waiting for them later. What we are seeing with a younger customer is definitely a more values driven or value considered purchasing. Right. Which is why you know, provenance, sustainability, sustainable credentials, sustainability comes into mind. Tell me the story of a brand a bit more. We're seeing that more and more but just in terms of also how people are experiencing fashion, young people and so really being clear, okay, well what role? So therefore, And I think TikTok is really interesting just to see how brands are behaving on TikTok because I think, you know, certainly in the early days of TikTok it skewed a lot younger than it skewed today, but it still skews relatively young. And just saying, okay, well is what I'm producing fit for this audience or am I just like slapping a billboard in front of a different crowd which I don't think is particularly effective. And I think this need for, at the risk of using a much overused word, this real need for authenticity. I think you know, these customers and these younger customers can smell you a mile away if you're putting it on.
- [43:56]
Unknown
On and what's next for you?
- [43:59]
Allyson Lerness
So you know, next for the business. Our parent company Richemont has recently announced an agreement that YNAB is going to be acquired by Mytheriza, which is another leading multi brand digital luxury business that's subject to all kinds of customary conditions. And while I can't share much on that at the moment, it's super exciting announcement and a new chapter that should bring really a lot of opportunity for the business overall. In the meantime here at HQ we're really, you know, it's business as usual, busy as ever. We're gearing up next year for Net A Porter's 25th anniversary, which really is an incredible milestone. Not just to celebrate the achievement of the teams here and the amazing support from our customers and partners, but really also to reflect on how the online luxury experience has evolved over time, which I guess resonates very much with what you and I have been talking about. On a personal note, really guiding and mentoring the teams across the business to achieve their full potential, to drive the performance and really to ensure that we remain an E commerce leader in all that we do.
- [45:09]
Unknown
As my last question, as I ask other people, if you had to describe your sense of leadership style or who you are as a person in three words, which words did you choose?
- [45:21]
Allyson Lerness
All right. Warm, exacting, curious.
- [45:30]
Dan Rubenstein
Thank you to my guest Alison Lerness as well as to Beth Newman and everyone at UX Net A Porter Group for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don't forget to visit our website and sign up for our new letter the Grand Tourist curator@thegrandtourist.net and follow me on Instagram danrubenstein. And don't forget to follow the Grand Tourist on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. And leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next time.