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- [00:00]
Anna Sui
Let's say you sell a million dollars of a collection, that million dollars is not yours. You know, you have to pay all those people that made it happen. And that's the thing that a lot of that designers don't understand is that you need that support system and you need that team and you need that infrastructure and family to make your brand. And you know, just because your name is on the label, it's not just you.
- [00:24]
Dan Rubenstein
Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life. When it comes to trends, it seems like everything keeps coming back into fashion again and again. And lately the 90s seems to be the nostalgic golden age we keep pining for. It seems to be everywhere from baggy jeans to an obsession with pre iPhone.
- [00:54]
Interviewer
Digital culture, from CDs to flip phones.
- [00:57]
Dan Rubenstein
It's all amusing to me. As the 90s were my teenage college and early professional years all rolled into one. Gay rights were on the rise, but still transgressive.
- [01:07]
Interviewer
The Internet was booming in ways no one really understood.
- [01:11]
Dan Rubenstein
And fashion was at times ultra expressive and understated at the same time. My guest today is a fashion designer who was instrumental during that golden age of creativity that created numerous present day icons, including herself, Anna Sweet. As a kid growing up in the Midwest, Anna came to New York to pursue her dreams of design.
- [01:31]
Interviewer
And along the way, inching her way.
- [01:33]
Dan Rubenstein
Up in the industry one Runway show at a time helped create some of the signature looks that defined the decade. From grunge and slip dress to all things preppy. If you're looking for a treasure trove of inspiration and insider gossip from that era of Sofia Coppola, Nirvana and vintage shopping, you're in luck. Anna Sui's latest book, the 90s. Anna Sui is out now from Rizzoli. I caught up with Anna from her studio right here in Manhattan to talk about growing up a child of rock and roll sounds, moving to a big apple that might feel unrecognizable today. How she first met Marc Jacobs and Steven Meisel and much more. I read that you were raised in.
- [02:17]
Interviewer
Dearborn, Michigan and that your parents sort of men in Sorbonne in Paris studying there.
- [02:22]
Anna Sui
Yeah, well my mom was going to Sorbonne and my father was going to. There's a very famous engineering school for bridges and it's like world famous and he already had a degree in engineering and he studied in Paris and then he got a scholarship to University of Michigan. So that's how we ended up in Michigan. So actually my parents met on a trip in Spain to Avila, which there was Chinese students and they met on the train and. Yeah.
- [03:00]
Interviewer
Oh, wow. Fantastic. Were they sort of. Did they become ever Francophiles or were they.
- [03:04]
Anna Sui
You know, my mom lived in Paris for almost three years. My dad lived there for two years and then he left to go to University of Michigan and set up a house and everything. And then my mom moved to Ann Arbor, which is where University of Michigan is.
- [03:21]
Interviewer
And how did they adapt to life there in the Midwest? Which to me just sounds. I mean, I went to school somewhat near the Midwest and you know, it's cold.
- [03:30]
Anna Sui
Yeah, yeah. I mean, keep in mind they both lived in China. My dad was in boarding school most of his life and it was all during the Japanese war. So they were constantly moving and they lived in many different climates in China. So I think just the prospect of living in the United States was so exciting. And I think that they seem to adapt. I've never heard them complain about the weather, but yeah, it was like the winters were kind of harsh, but not. Not as hard as Chicago, let's say, or Minneapolis. Yeah.
- [04:08]
Interviewer
And sort of as a first generation American, is it kind of a strict household? Was it?
- [04:15]
Anna Sui
Well, my parents were pretty international, having been educated in Europe and having lived in so many different households. And I think their life was always in flux where finally settling into the Midwest, I think they just went with the flow. And this is at the height of pop culture. Everybody watched the same TV programs. It was all like a Leave it to Beaver world. They just adapted. And we weren't real strict on any kind of Chinese superstitions or even the holidays. We didn't celebrate Chinese New Year or any of the interim holidays. We celebrated Christmas and Thanksgiving and Easter. So it just like. I think they just adapted and were very modern about their whole approach.
- [05:11]
Interviewer
And I read that you have two brothers and as a teen your older brother would take you to music shows in Detroit. Is that true?
- [05:17]
Anna Sui
Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, in. In the 60s, every band passed through Detroit. It was part of the circuit. So first it was, you know, like some local bands like Iggy and The Stooges and MC5 and then all the British Invasion were passing through. So, you know, once I was old enough to go to the venues, I went to the venues. But those first couple of summers I wasn't really old enough, so my brother would take me to the Concerts in the park. And they were almost every weekend we'd see different bands.
- [05:51]
Interviewer
Oh, nice. What did you like personally as a young girl in terms of music?
- [05:55]
Anna Sui
Oh, Iggy and the Stooges, MC5. I mean, of course, like, as a kid, I loved the Beatles and the Monkees and, you know, like. And, like, a lot of that, like, pop rock that was going on. Dino, Desi and Billy, you know, so. But then as I got a little older and understood a little bit more about music and rock, I mean, Iggy and The Stooges and MC5 were just so revolutionary. And Alice Cooper. Yeah.
- [06:26]
Interviewer
And if I could go back in time to when you were 16 and with a time machine and you and I could visit yourself as a younger. At a younger age, like, what would you say? How would you describe that? This sort of young woman?
- [06:38]
Anna Sui
I mean, I was always very determined to be a fashion designer. I think you probably read that When I was 5 or 6, I was a flower girl at my uncle's wedding, and I came back to Michigan telling everybody I was moving to New York and becoming a fashion designer. It took me all my childhood and teen years to figure out what that was and how to do it. So once I read about two young ladies going to Parsons School of Design and reading that they were given a boutique by Elizabeth Taylor in Paris, I thought, okay, that's the key. I have to go to Parsons. And so I did everything I could in my education and took classes so that I would have the proper portfolio to register for Parsons. So I'd say I was a very determined, focused teenager. And I would sit and read Vogue magazine in school all day long, sometimes getting in trouble about it. But it was just. It was just. That was my nature. I just had to learn as much as I could about fashion and figure out, like, how was I going to reach this goal?
- [07:52]
Interviewer
What was the biggest hurdle for you? If I were to ask a younger version of you, like, what that was? Was it like, did you think your parents wouldn't approve of becoming. Going to New York and going to Parsons? Or did you think, you know, what was the kind of. The big worry in your head to kind of figure it out after all those years?
- [08:12]
Anna Sui
Yeah, because it was just, you know, what kind of career was that? Like, was it a career at that point? You know, it's just like, I want to move to New York and be a fashion designer. What does that mean? Like, is that a dressmaker? You know, like, it was just kind of not that. That clear at that point. There weren't articles and stories about fashion designers back then. So I think once they saw how determined I was, my father even took, like, moonlighting jobs to support my education. And I think that, you know, once I started doing fashion shows, my dad and mom were at every fashion show. My father took pictures of every. Every show. And actually, that's what the book is about. It's a lot of his photos. And we had this ritual, because it's before digital. And he would take the pictures, and by the time we got home after the show, it was always the evening. Cause I always had, like, an evening, early evening show. The first thing in the morning, he and I would walk to the Photoshop. He would turn in the film. We'd go to the corner newsstand and see if there was any reviews in the Times or women's wear. And then we'd wait a couple of hours, and then he'd go pick up the photos. And that would be the first that I saw of the show. Because it wasn't. You couldn't see it. I mean, I was backstage all the time, so that would be my first clue. And I would look at the photos, not only, like, what was on the Runway, but who was in the audience. And I. You know, and so that would kind of tell me, like, what press were there, what stores were there, what celebs were there. So that was just our ritual all those years. So I think you'll see that the book is kind of a very different perspective.
- [09:56]
Interviewer
And were your parents, like, you know, sound when your dad would help you do all of this? Was he someone who would, like, try to give advice or was just, you know, gushing normal parent?
- [10:06]
Anna Sui
I mean, I think that anytime I needed advice. Yes. And when I actually moved the business out of my apartment into my first workspace, he came. And my brother. My brother. My younger brother Eddie came and they helped me paint the space. And he built all the cutting tables. And, I mean, he was just so supportive. And then at the shows, he got to know all the buyers, all the press. And actually, there's one footage of him talking with Jeannie Becker, and she's complaining that she couldn't get backstage. And she's asking my dad how to get backstage. It's just funny. Like, he just knew everybody. And he was like, you know, that kind of guy that just was. He could talk to anybody. And he knew Cal Ritenstein. He knew everybody. So I think he started really enjoying coming to the shows.
- [10:58]
Interviewer
And, you know, after school and those early days leading up to the era that your book focuses on. What would you say is your. When you think about your own career up to that point where. When the book starts to take off in the timeline, what would you say is your sort of key to fashion success? What do you think made you such a successful designer?
- [11:23]
Anna Sui
I think a number of things. I think the fact that I did work in the industry for a while, I had some jobs with, like, very big companies, and I learned the fabric resources. I think the fact that I knew resources, knew how to source not only fabric, but buttons and trims, and, you know, it was a very vital industry at that point. And all these streets were filled with stores and showrooms for fabric. And I developed relationships with a lot of the textile companies and found out who the owners were and started befriending the owners. And once I started my own business, they were the ones that were really instrumental in getting me fabrics and giving me credit so that I could buy fabrics. I think working in some of these companies, I would sometimes go to the showroom to introduce the new collections. So that's how I met Cal Ruttenstein and a lot of the fashion directors of different publications and stores. So, I mean, I understood the whole infrastructure of the business, which I think at this point, there's not much infrastructure. Like, back then. It was very orderly, very on schedule. Like, you knew you had to get, like, okay. What would happen at the show is when you were greeting the guests, the first people in line were always the department stores, and they would start getting you to commit to what things they wanted for the windows, what they wanted for ads, and you had to give them exclusives. Stores would come up and say which collections they want or what pieces they wanted to buy. And magazines would ask you if they could be the first to photograph things. You know, it was just very, very planned that way, where now, with it being mostly digital, it's not quite. As you don't have that contact and then. And also you don't have that feedback, that immediate feedback where you're waiting for. You're waiting for the orders. You're waiting for the stores. The buyers aren't even the ones that come to the shows. You know, it's just. It's all kind of.
- [13:32]
Interviewer
And that's so much a part of, I think, New York, too, because you're talking about places to get trim and buttons and things like that. That's the garment district, right? I mean, what we're really talking about.
- [13:42]
Anna Sui
Yeah.
- [13:43]
Interviewer
And then comes the 1990s, which is where the book is centered on. And you know, it was such a different place back then for those of us, myself included, that remember it. And it mentions a lot of things that maybe people would not have thought about when talking about fashion, but this kind of, like, restaurant culture and the clubs and, you know, Patricia Field, the famous boutique which so many people would reference. Do you think your designs of the era were sort of like an outgrowth of the culture at the time, or were you responding to something like how it was a little bit of chicken and egg? Like, do you think that one begat the other?
- [14:23]
Anna Sui
Oh, definite, definite. I think that, you know, I was so obsessed and in love with fashion that I always wanted to know the latest thing. I'd always go to the latest store. I'd want to see the latest designers, and you would go to these shops to see that. I would go to the flea market every weekend, researching, looking for new inspirations. And I went to every exhibition. And, you know, I really, really, I think, got the best of all worlds in New York with not only my own obsession, but also all my friends. Like, that's all we would talk about, that we'd talk about, oh, you know, like, there's Claude Montana at Bloomingdale's. You have to go see those big shoulders. And, you know, it was just always like our obsession, you know, oh, the new Italian Vogue came out, like, you can get it at the newsstand on, like, 40th and 7th Avenue. You know, it was just always those things that were my world and, you know, what I live for. So I think that, again, it's a little different now because everything's so immediate that I don't know that everything is as precious as it was back then, because for publications, you had to wait those two or three months. Women's Wear Daily would have the black and white photos, but you wouldn't see the color usually until it finally came out in editorial. And then you wouldn't see the actual clothing until it came out six months later in the department stores. So you would ask the salespeople, when are you going to get that new collection? And when should I come to the store? And, oh, we should be getting it at the end of June, beginning of July. So you'd go, and then you'd also make friends with them and say, when is it going to go on sale? And then they say, right after, like, October 15, we start marking down, you know. So it was just like, all those things that kind of. I was so driven and always had to get, like, that piece that I saw maybe the first time in Women's Wear Daily that I just had to have that Gaultier skirt or that or that Kenzo or, you know, whoever the designer that I was obsessed with. So I think that all of that made it so much more desirable and almost like a constant quest for having, having, having to find something that you're obsessed with and waiting for it and longing for it. And I think things felt more precious.
- [16:57]
Dan Rubenstein
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- [18:23]
Interviewer
I'm just curious, like why when you decided to sit down and do this book, why the 90s, like why focus on this?
- [18:31]
Anna Sui
I wanted the newer generations to understand how genuine that period was. It wasn't completely dominated by huge corporations that paid for front row people and paid for celebrities to wear the clothes back then. It was just very organic. It was an exciting time in fashion because there was a lot going on in the arts, not only in fashion, but in music, in film. And we were all that generation that probably 15, 20 years before had experienced New York and like the true, like kind of underground New York met. I met everybody at clubs and we would all like see each other night after night, check each other out, like see what they were wearing. Some people like broke through like all Those bands from CBGB's like the Ramones and Blondie. And we saw all the British bands like Sex Pistols and the Clash, I mean, they were all hanging out. Like, you would. You would see them play, and then you would go to the Mud Club, and they'd be hanging out at the Mud Club. You know, it was just kind of much more organic. It wasn't where you had to be paid to do something, you know, And I think that you can really understand that when you see these pages and see what's going on not only on the Runway, but also backstage. Like, all those models were dating those young Hollywood stars or dating guys in the bands, and they'd be at the shows, like. And that would be the thing, like, a week or two before the show, my PR would always say, can you stop going out? You can't invite any more people to the show. Because that would be, like, whenever I met somebody, oh, you have to come to my show. And so it just kind of, again, was very organic. It wasn't, again, a paid thing, or it wasn't strategic. It was just really what was happening.
- [20:38]
Interviewer
So I guess you could say that if you had, you know, after Parsons, if you had moved to Miami or Paris or something, that your career would have turned out completely differently and your designs might have, too.
- [20:49]
Anna Sui
Well, you never know. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, but I think I was very influenced by New York, very influenced by the whole club scene that I experienced from the beginning when I moved here.
- [21:05]
Interviewer
And there's also a fantastic monograph of your career and as many facets that coincided with a museum show in London in 2017, with the 90s. Did it kind of spur any kind of. Because the first book is rather comprehensive and it goes through your life, but this book also is kind of a trip down memory lane with other people and other kind of, like, you know, cultural phenomena. Was it kind of. What kind of research did you need to do to kind of, like, dig up all of this kind of thing?
- [21:38]
Anna Sui
Cause actually, the first book that I did was with Andrew Bolton, and it was chronological. The second one I did with Tim Blanks, and it coincided with this exhibition at the Fashion Textile Museum. And so we. We worked hand in hand with them, with the. The archetypes of my career. And so we picked. I forgot seven or eight categories and curated the museum show that way. But also I spent, like, four days with Tim and we talked about each of those archetypes and what the influences were, what was going on in my life during the time when I was working on those. And I think that so much of what I Was inspired by was nostalgia for a long time. Like, I mean, I missed out on the 60s. I wasn't in London. I wasn't on Carnaby Street. I didn't see the Beatles, you know, like, all those things. But I was always longing for that. In the 70s, when I finally did come to New York, it started that I was meeting all these bands and all these, like, artists and different people. And by the 90s, I think that everything kind of got on track. It was. Everyone was being inspired by the music. And you'd go to a concert and you'd see everybody that was in town because everybody wanted to see Nirvana or Smashing Pumpkins. And the audiences were so excited. And everyone was all dressed up and wearing the latest whatever. Or you'd go to a film premiere, and again, you'd see so many people that, again, weren't paid to go there. They were just genuinely friends or interested. And same with the restaurants. It was always like, a movable feast where you would go to a restaurant and you'd see, like, 10 to 20 people that you knew or wanted to know or, you know, were, like, starstruck by, but everybody would be at the same restaurant. It's not like today where you go to a restaurant and it's like, who are these people? Like, is this New York? You know, it was a very different time, but. And then, like, that. That restaurant would, like, probably be it for, like, a month or two or the summer or. And then you would move on to the next place. But you were guaranteed to, like, run into somebody and hear about the parties or the next concerts or whatever that was going on. It was because it was all. Everybody depended on word of mouth. Then there wasn't everything on the Internet, so it became very exclusive for people, too, because we kind of were in the grapevine, where now everything is immediate and, like, on the Internet, even before it happens. And then it's just. It's not that, like, has no underground sense about it.
- [24:33]
Interviewer
So in the 90s, what was a typical weekend like for you?
- [24:39]
Anna Sui
I guess there would always be, like, some kind of dinner or party and then, like, shopping. Because the flea market in New York was incredible. I mean, it's probably the best flea market ever. And at one point, there were three huge parking lots that were just filled with vendors. And you would see everyone from Yves Saint Laurent to Andy Warhol to, like, everybody shopping, depending on what type of time of day you went there. And then you would make friends with all the different vendors, and they would bring special stuff for you. And it would not be a matter of, like, if you found something. It'd be like, what? What can I afford to buy? And like, how much can I buy? Because you had to choose, because there was just always so much. I mean, I furnished my whole stores and apartment with all the amount of furniture that they had there and the great selection. And you know how I have all this like rococo stuff. I had one vendor that she looked out for that stuff for me and she would like, send me pictures or she would take photographs or Polaroids or photographs and she'd say, okay, I can get you this, I can get you this. And we furnished all my stores that way because she knew exactly the kind of like rococo Bombay shaped furniture that I liked.
- [25:51]
Interviewer
You bring up such a great point about flea markets in New York and how they've kind of used to be such a big thing and then they kind of faded away and I guess the Internet must have killed it, or we don't. There's so many cities around Europe and elsewhere that have, you know, amazing flea markets to this day, or even if they're once a month or something like that.
- [26:08]
Anna Sui
Yeah.
- [26:08]
Interviewer
What do you think? Kind of. When did you. When did you think that the flea market universe kind of in New York started to kind of fade?
- [26:15]
Anna Sui
Well, I think, like, because of economics, like they lost those parking lot spaces and then they moved into the garage. And so the garage was maybe 50% as good as what it was. So it was a big decline there. And then once they lost the garage and it'd be off and on in that parking lot that it is now. Like, so many of the vendors were of that age where they probably retired. You know, they couldn't hack it anymore because it wasn't what it had been. And I think the audience changed a lot. People change. Didn't care about those, like, antique or kind of vintage things that, that my generation loved, like, you know, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, but in mid century stuff. And they started wanting like yesterday, you know, like. And so I think, like vintage, the resurgence of vintage has been incredible. But it started out just wanting yesterday instead of things from like my mother's era or whatever. And now it's incredible because you can find exactly what you didn't get the first time around. Like, let's say you want that Prada fairy bag. You can Google it and you can find five resources depending on how much you want to spend for it. But that again, makes it that holy grail and even more precious than buying a Prada bag. That they have in the store right now, because that, you know, you can get. But getting that exact one that you missed out on makes it even better. So it's kind of. The whole thing has kind of really shifted.
- [27:55]
Interviewer
And, you know, to me, growing up in the early 90s as a teenager and going to school, grunge was just something that kind of happened to the world around me, you know, so obviously it was something that felt so normal and what being a teenager was all about. But you had a front row seat. And your 93 collection, I believe, was kind of pivotal in part of making this look and what it is. And for someone listening today who might be in school, maybe a Parsons student, what is grunge in your own words?
- [28:30]
Anna Sui
I think it was a reaction against the big hair bands from the 80s, which were kind of almost manufactured, all from LA, kind of belonged to big record companies. Very flash and very loud. And suddenly there were these shoe gazers, these shy people that were almost more like the artists that you remember in school that probably never talked to anybody. And you didn't realize they had this hidden talent. And they would gather at these clubs or venues and play their music, which was on a very different, like, sound level from, like, those metal bands. And it was much more casual. And they all had, like, this much more casual way of dressing. Instead of, like fringe leather with studs and big hair. They were. Everything was very quiet. There were flannel shirts and T shirts and baggy jeans. And a lot of them came from the Seattle area. And they were all of a sudden new record companies, much smaller record companies, indie record companies. And even, like, the circuit that they played was very different. It wasn't Madison Square Garden, it was smaller venues. And so it again, felt much more intimate. And it kind of reflected what was going on with the rest of the arts, where there was a whole new generation of filmmakers and artists and. And then designers, fashion designers followed suit. They, you know, like. Like we went to see those bands, we met those bands because someone was dating somebody in the band or. And. Or you'd go backstage at the show and meet them and, you know, and it was just. It was just much more intimate again. It wasn't that. That kind of, like big business that heavy metal was.
- [30:26]
Interviewer
And, you know, in the fashion industry, when these things went from, you know, kids finding vintage to, you know, fashion labels producing the look, like, were there kind of gatekeepers or buyers that were just kind of like, resistant to the idea, like, at the time that it was all kind of happening, like what was the sort of discussion, like the meta discussion about like, hey, we need to sell things people can wear to work, you know, or that kind of thing?
- [30:53]
Anna Sui
Exactly. I mean, because again, it was like power dressing from the 80s and suddenly these things all look like they were from the flea market. So the generation of buyers at that point, not all of them were wanting to make that change. They were still wanting those big shoulders and power dressing styles. It took a very savvy buyer to understand it in the beginning. And I mean, Mark is a perfect example of that from Perry Ellis. So I think that, that. But that was also what really brought so much attention to, to my clothes. And, and you know, at first people didn't really know where to put it. Like they didn't really get. It wasn't junior fashion and it wasn't designer fashion where like I couldn't hang next to Calvin Klein or Donna Karan. Like they didn't really understand where to categorize it. And so I was really fortunate. I had a friend that worked at Calvin Klein and he saw me on the street one day and he said, I need to talk to you and let's have dinner. And at dinner he said, you need to open a boutique. You have to showcase what your clothes are about. And that's when I opened my boutique on Green Street. I went very, the very next day, found the space. It was an artisan residence building and the rent was $5,000 and I had like a 20 year lease. So that was the best, one of the best business deals I ever made because it made my, my store really affordable. And that was pre boom of SoHo in the 90s. And by the end, you know, we'd have hundreds of people coming through the store every day. You know, I mean, at the end of the 90s, it was just like such a boom with all the Japanese shoppers and Chinese shoppers and then all the tourists and plus local, you know, it changed again like after 2008, but at that point it was such a boom.
- [32:59]
Interviewer
And there's a fantastic chapter on music and of course we've been speaking about some of the big names that have kind of come through and inspired everything. But if there was one musician that you think most impacted your work or your life, who would that be in the 90s?
- [33:13]
Anna Sui
I guess you can say in the 90s. Well, because I would say Anita Pallenberg, because I loved her style and I actually got to be really good friends with her in the 90s. So that was really fun, going to flea markets with her. Shopping with her and just seeing how she dressed and what a distinct style she had and how she kind of invented that look for the rock and roll woman. But also bands started asking me for clothes. And so I dressed a lot of the different bands during that period. And I think the. Maybe the first. I also introduced menswear. So my first customers for menswear were Mick Jagger and then Nick Rhodes. But then James Eha from Smashing Pumpkins asked me to make something for him. And then I think that same summer Anthony Kiedis bought like the satin kilt skirt and he wore it through his whole tour.
- [34:13]
Interviewer
Are you someone who likes to listen to music while you work?
- [34:16]
Anna Sui
I do when I'm sketching, yeah. Usually that happens on the weekends and I usually have some rock concert going on like in my head and just play the same music over and over again during the regular week. There's just too much else going on. Business wise, it's a little difficult and distracting because it's kind of carries you away somewhere else.
- [34:42]
Interviewer
And if you were sketching on a weekend, like what's a. What's a playlist or an album that you. You is on your. Your go to lately, it really depends.
- [34:52]
Anna Sui
On what the next collection is going to be about. So I think if you see my fall collection, which was about Madcap Heiress, and I was really inspired by those 1930s films about all these rich heiresses that would like run off with the butler or the chauffeur. And so I was listening to all that music and like researching as much as I could and finding out, like, oh, Doris Duke's favorite song is I Love the Way youy're Breaking My Heart. And so I would listen to that over and over and over again. And just. Just to kind of get the flavoring of like, what those women were about, what the sound was like, and imagining like them dancing in like El Morocco or some of the nightclubs, you know, and then. Or there would be other times when I was inspired by like, maybe a different period of time. One collection that I loved, we did it was based on the Belly Poke. And I worked a lot with Frederick Sanchez on music. So I kept calling Frederick because he knows so much not only about contemporary music, but historical music, opera, classic music. And I. I wanted to know, like, what was the music that Toulouse Lautrec was listening to. And that was actually at the beginning of recording. And he sent me all these recordings of like one of those dance hall singers. And so, you know, it just. It just helps you kind of transport and get yourself in the mood for what you're. The elements of what you're trying to introduce into the collection. Even though it's not like a historical recreation, you can pick up elements of that period by looking at pictures and hearing the music.
- [36:40]
Interviewer
And there's a wonderful chapter on all things preppy. And why do you think that sort of struck a chord at the time? Because I remember it being kind of preppy was also, from my young point of view when I was a kid, was almost the transgressive, slightly. I don't know, like it was radical because it was kind of felt somehow conservative or something. What do you accredit that sort of like preppy boom in the 90s, too?
- [37:14]
Anna Sui
Yeah, I mean, it was kind of my way of perversing it almost because it was such a classic thing and such a middle of the road thing. But how do you make it, like, more subversive? And so there's like little jokes throughout the whole collection. But still, it was kind of the way people were dressing with the baby tees and the little plaid skirts and like a little kind of cardigan. But I did them in, like, colors that people hadn't seen that style before. It wasn't like red, white and blue. It was, you know, baby pink or baby yellow. Baby baby blue. And Hush Puppies had just come out with their Hush Puppies again. And I got them to make special colors in all those pastels for me, which again was kind of like subverting it where like when Hush Puppies were big, they were like brown or black or, you know, then suddenly there's these, like, fun, like. Like kind of almost. They look like candy almost. So I think that, you know, that's something that it was. It was a lot of fun to do and taking all those elements. Actually, I had the copy of the Preppy Handbook looking at it, but subverting it.
- [38:45]
Interviewer
Yeah, the preview Handbooks. It's one of those books for those who might be a little bit younger. It's like it always comes back around in the culture. People keep finding it and reprinting it. And I have to ask about the movie Clueless because obviously, if you're my age, Clueless was like almost this film that is more important than almost anything in the evolution of style in the 90s. And can you explain that? I believe your works, kind of your collection kind of inspired the costumes in the film and it was such a big national hit.
- [39:20]
Anna Sui
Yeah, I think if you look at my first show, those little plaid kilts and matching jackets and the Little cap that all kind of precluded. There's also, like, a bright yellow window pane and a pink window pane. You know, so all of that, like, precluded that look. But I think that, you know, that's what happens with fashion is sometimes something sets. Sets off a look and takes a while to, like, really catch on. And so I think Clueless came out, like, a couple years after that. Or like, there I did that one collection that was very preppy again, and, like, had, like, golf inspired clothes. And again, I subverted the golf, but it was very much like the Wes Anderson Royal Tenenbaums movie. Like, that styling, and that became such a look. Like, everybody was wearing tracksuits again. And, you know, so it was just kind of. I think that it's what fashion is about. Like, you take an element that you feel that's in the air, and you kind of try to do your own version of it.
- [40:38]
Interviewer
And, you know, there's a discussion in the book about how fashion is, you know, cyclical and the fact that, you know, the 90s kind of looked a little bit like the 60s at some points. There's a wonderful chapter about, you know, the trend of vintage clothes that we've. We've spoken about. I'm wondering, like, if when you went shopping for vintage in New York at the time, like, did you have favorite spots that you would go to or what was that kind of like for you?
- [41:02]
Anna Sui
Oh, yeah, definitely. But I think the flea market was the best.
- [41:05]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [41:07]
Anna Sui
And I. It was, you know, shortly after the Yves Saint Laurent revolutionary collection where the women were wearing kind of 1940s clothes. And. And it caused a scandal because it was so close to. I mean, a lot of people still remembered World War II and the occupation. And so I think people walked out of that show. People, people like top journalists like Eugenia Shepard, just were so critical about it. But again, it kind of reminded me of what happened in the 90s with the buyers that were still left over from the 80s and power dressing. And then suddenly when grunge started happening, they weren't getting where it was going. But again, that's always what fashion's about. In the beginning, when I was buying vintage, it was 40s, there was a shop in Detroit that was on the other side of town that if you brought in a shopping bag from the grocery store, you could fill it for $5, and they would have all these incredible 40s jackets with shoulder pads and beading. And, you know, like, all the. During glam rock, all the guys were wearing Those too, like wearing them with the skinny pants. And so it was just kind of such a look and it was not that easy to find those 40s pieces. And this shop was like chock full of that.
- [42:35]
Interviewer
And you know, to the observer, there's something about the 90s that maybe in New York, especially coming out of the gritty 80s, that was like dangerous. And of course it was very heavy because of like the AIDS crisis. And we talk a lot about.
- [42:48]
Dan Rubenstein
And there's something about the 90s that.
- [42:49]
Interviewer
Feels kind of fun and carefree and, you know, baby doll and clueless. And there's this emphasis on humor and youth culture. And it was also kind of like it feels pretentionless in a sense than maybe the big power suit 80s. Is that fair to say, like now.
- [43:09]
Dan Rubenstein
With some distance, looking back on that era?
- [43:11]
Anna Sui
Oh, definitely. And it's pre Internet. So I think that was the next big change, that everything, everything felt more genuine, more sincere, I think is maybe a good word for it. I think that we. There were a lot of independent artists and designers and we didn't answer to a big corporation. So I think that that made a big difference. I think that the fact that there was a whole movement of art and film and music all kind of coming up together and it all felt so new and it was a new generation of creatives. And I think that that was. That that made it different as well. And I think the camaraderie of like the word of mouth and, you know, having to like, go out to find out what else was going on that night. You know, like you went to the place for dinner, but then you would hear about if there was a party or a club or something else happening later in the week. You know, like, that was kind of great. Where now everything is just on your phone.
- [44:35]
Interviewer
Yeah, sadly. And you've collaborated with a lot of people over the years and a lot of these names like Marc Jacobs and these sort of New York fixtures and musicians, it's a lot of people focused and personality focused. But one name does come up a lot in multiple books that you've done, which is Steven Meisel. And I was wondering if you. How did the two of you meet and kind of. Why do you think you guys clicked?
- [45:01]
Anna Sui
Yeah, I mean, we met at Parsons. I remember walking into his drawing class and, you know, dropping my. My art kit and thinking like, oh my God, this is the most beautiful man I've ever seen. And like, how can I get to meet him? And so, I mean, it took a while because he was in Illustration. And I was in fashion design. And we were encouraged not to mix with the other students, really. So, of course, what did I do? I went to the lunchroom and met. Met the other students. And so Stephen saw me and, like, signaled me to come over and sit with him. And he's like, do you ever go out dancing? And I'm like, no, but I'd love to. So then we went out to, like, clubs and, like, that became a regular thing because I had an apartment in kind of midtown. And so everyone would come over to my apartment and we'd all get dressed up and we'd go out.
- [45:53]
Interviewer
So east side or west side?
- [45:55]
Anna Sui
East side. Yeah. So it. It was, yeah, kind of the ritual. And even though we weren't even really old enough to get in the clubs, like, we had this thing where we would get there before nine and hide in the bathroom and then. And then, like, wait like an hour or two and then. Then when people started showing up, then we would, like, mingle.
- [46:17]
Interviewer
Oh, gosh, okay. What clubs would you go to? See 2 with Steve and myself.
- [46:21]
Anna Sui
So this is like pre studio. So they were like. There was one club called Tamberlaine, which I remember seeing Valentino and like, all, like, all the Warhol crowd, like, all those people. And again, these weren't huge, huge clubs. So it was much more intimate. Suddenly one of Stephen's best friends said, oh, I just joined a band. Do you want to come listen to me play? And so we went and it was the Patti Smith group. And then I remember Stephen saying, oh, I heard about this band. That's that, like, the lead singer is really cute. Let's go see her. And it was Blondie. And so this is right before CBGB's happened. And then CBGB's started and there were all these bands and then they kind of spilled over into Max's Kansas City. So that was the ritual, going back and forth between Max's and CBGB's every night to see the different bands. So it was just kind of a great, great time for. For music and. And seeing like. Like witnessing a whole scene happening.
- [47:30]
Interviewer
And if you could live the 90s over again, what would you do differently?
- [47:37]
Anna Sui
Maybe try to enjoy it a little more. Because I was very driven and working really hard. And, you know, I was building my own business. I had to freelance to support my business. So I was back and forth between Italy and New York every two weeks. I mean, but there was no other way to support my business. Like, we weren't. We weren't generating enough money. So I had to get additional income. So the freelance really helped a lot. So, I mean, I guess that that would be probably the only thing that would be different if I could have hung out a little more. But maybe I was always the one that left early because I had to get up for work the next day or I had to get on a plane to get to Italy. And it was always that.
- [48:23]
Interviewer
Is there anybody in your circle back in the 90s that you look back now, you'd be like, God, I had an opportunity to hang out with that person or spend more time with them, and I just got busy, and it never happened. Is there a particular person that you can think of?
- [48:38]
Anna Sui
Not really. Because I. I don't think I felt really that deprived, you know, I mean, you know, like, if. If there was a concert going on in California, I would go, you know, like. And if there was a band playing, you know, that night, I would go, you know, So I don't think. But it's just there was always that thing where I've got to get home. Cause I gotta get up in the morning, you know, it was always like, I couldn't really hang out, like. But then maybe there was nothing more to do that night, you know, but it was just like, I always felt like, I've got to go home.
- [49:14]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another name that comes up, pops up in the book is a very young Marc Jacobs. And, you know, and he's always kind of someone who's ahead of the curve and. But I was curious, like, from your point of view, like, what was he like as, you know, a young designer back way back then. Way back then.
- [49:31]
Anna Sui
I mean. I mean, I heard about Mark through word of mouth. And also I remember seeing a big article in Women's Wear about his first collection sketchbook. And I recognized him because he worked at Charavari, which was such a great fashion store, and one of those stores that you went to to see, like, all the latest fashion all the time. So it became like, kind of a Saturday ritual. So I knew who he was, and then I started seeing him out at clubs. And we didn't really get to be friends until the 90s, when we found ourselves at events together all the time. And then we started going to those events together. And then we ended up doing freelance together in Italy. So that's how we got really close. Yeah.
- [50:18]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [50:18]
Dan Rubenstein
What kind of freelance did you work on together?
- [50:20]
Anna Sui
Well, Franca Sozani from Italian Vogue, she was so connected with the whole Italian fashion world, and they were always looking for designers to freelance. So. Yeah, so that, that really helped supplement the finances for. To pay for that fashion show. Yeah, Pay for the fabric.
- [50:44]
Interviewer
Did you enjoy all that time in Italy? I think it was such a different place back then.
- [50:49]
Anna Sui
Yeah. Because, I mean, I never learned the language. I mean, Mark was so great. He. He learned Italian, but I was just, I don't know, a dunce with that. And so. But it was so eye opening and working with like their pattern makers and. But mostly their resources because it was so different than, you know, when I. When I first started my collections. Everything was domestic, everything was made in. In the US and this kind of opened up a whole different world to me for resourcing and then connections. And then I got a contract for designing shoes. So I had that license for 12 years, like making handbags and shoes in Italy, which is the best place on earth for that. So it was just such a great learning experience and cultural experience.
- [51:40]
Interviewer
And if you had to describe yourself in three separate words, what three separate words would you use to describe Anna Sui?
- [51:50]
Anna Sui
I think lucky, grateful, and obsessed.
- [52:01]
Dan Rubenstein
Thank you to my guests, Anna Sui, as well as to everyone at Rizzoli for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don't forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, the Grand Tourist Curator at, and follow me on Instagram danrubetstein. Don't forget, you can purchase the first ever print issue of the Grand Tourist online now on our website. Just a few copies left. And follow the Grand Tourist on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. And leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next time.