Annie Lennox: “I Don’t Buy Into the Game”

Summary

The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein

Episode: Annie Lennox: “I Don’t Buy Into the Game”
Release Date: September 10, 2025
Host: Dan Rubinstein
Guest: Annie Lennox, singer-songwriter and pop icon

---

Overview

In this Season 14 premiere, Dan Rubinstein sits down with Annie Lennox to trace her journey from Aberdeen childhood to international superstardom and activism. The conversation delves into the visual culture of her music career, her acclaimed new visual memoir ("Annie Lennox Retrospective"), and her philosophical stance on fame, creativity, and advocacy. Lennox’s candor, wit, and wisdom illuminate not just a life in music, but a lifetime of reinvention, self-possession, and intention.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Childhood in Aberdeen and Early Musical Influences

• Annie recounts growing up in Aberdeen during the '50s and '60s, describing a tough, working-class neighborhood influenced by Scotland’s shipbuilding industry ([03:37]).
• Her father played bagpipes; music was ever-present in the household. She began on a toy piano at age three, later joining a local choir ([06:31]).
• "I loved music. I was singing when I was about six or seven in a local choir and learning about rhythm and about singing in tune and keeping time and just the fundamentals of music making." – Annie Lennox ([06:51])

2. Formal Musical Training and Pivotal Move to London

• Won a place at a "posh" school outside her district and learned under strict expectations ([04:59]).
• Took up flute at 11 due to a school's spare instrument—her first exposure to wind instruments ([08:12]).
• Gained admission to the Royal Academy of Music in London, but dropped out upon realizing the classical path was not for her ([13:18]).
• "I knew that wasn't the right place for me. So that was devastating because I knew I'd have three years to spend there and where was I heading into a place I didn't want to go." – Annie Lennox ([13:33])

3. Finding Her Artistic Voice: From The Tourists to Eurythmics

• After leaving the Academy, supported herself with odd jobs in Camden, London, while nurturing songwriting ambitions ([13:18]).
• Meeting Dave Stewart through Camden market connections proved pivotal; he recognized her vocal talent and encouraged her to focus on music ([16:53]).
• "He said to me, you're an artist. You don't need to be waitressing." – Annie Lennox ([16:59])
• Together with Stewart and Pete Coombs, she formed The Tourists, touring and releasing albums before Stewart and Lennox formed Eurythmics ([18:46]).
• Their tenacity fueled Eurythmics’ rise: "When you have nothing to lose and you have everything to gain, you just go for it 100%." – Annie Lennox ([20:35])

4. Visual Culture and Iconic Imagery

• A lost gold bracelet in Australia, pawned and traded for a video camera, launched the duo’s experimentation with visuals. This technology—rare at the time—enabled Eurythmics to shape their image on their terms ([22:44]).
• "The visual element of Eurythmics was very important to us because it was like, not only did we have these songs, but we had to say something visually. And we loved it because it was like storytelling." – Annie Lennox ([24:06])
• The “Sweet Dreams” video, featuring surreal visuals such as a board table and a roaming cow, became iconic ([25:39]).

5. Fashion, Androgyny, and Autonomy

• Annie describes the practicality and radicalism of her signature androgynous look—born not from stylists, but from thrifting affordable menswear ([29:30]).
• "I wasn’t trying to look like a man. I wanted to be an equal. That was more the thinking behind it. I didn’t want to be an objectified pretty girl." – Annie Lennox ([31:35])
• She emphasizes that there were no stylists then—they styled themselves, expressing autonomy and intention ([31:50]).

6. Acting Interludes and the Nature of Stage Performance

• Was encouraged to act, but reflects that her deepest, truest performances are as herself on stage, not as a fictional character ([33:43]).
• "When I'm performing the songs that we wrote and I wrote, I'm actually being me, you know, really at the core, at the soul level, that is very much who I am." – Annie Lennox ([34:25])

7. Peak Pop Moments: Performing with David Bowie

• Recounts her show-stealing turn alongside David Bowie at the Freddie Mercury tribute, standing in for Freddie Mercury on "Under Pressure," days after becoming a mother ([36:11]).
• On her iconic look: "That frock that I wore, I thought it has to be like, massive black and it needs, like crinoline underneath to make it flare out. And it should be like armor, like Joan of Arc, you know." ([38:11])
• The performance’s intensity and spontaneity: "...it was all absolutely intuitive. Everything just fell into place. I get goosebumps talking about it now to you." ([40:15], [40:46])

8. Establishing Identity Amid 1980s Pop Titans

• On comparisons to Bowie or Grace Jones: "I'd be honored and flattered...But I need to be myself. I can't be sort of half this and half something else." ([42:48])
• "Ultimately you as a performer, you have to be you. No question." ([43:55])
• Discusses the destructive effects of fame and the importance of keeping part of oneself private ([44:18]).
• "I don't buy into the game. I believe in the music and I believe in the magical aspects of music, but for me personally, that doesn't work. I have to keep a part of myself." ([44:18])

9. Roots and Personal Philosophy on Fame and Authenticity

• Scottish working-class roots and family activism shaped her skepticism towards fame and exceptionalism ([44:18]).
• She likens the camera’s power to the old belief that photographs steal a piece of the soul, and warns against selling oneself for celebrity ([44:18]).

10. Activism: From Family DNA to the Global Stage

• Family tradition of activism inspired her, reaching back to grandparents fighting fascism between the world wars ([47:44]).
• Shares the story of how seeing Sting’s Amnesty International letter and missing Live Aid due to vocal injury influenced her determination to use music for advocacy ([49:31]).
• Major impact: performing at Nelson Mandela’s 2004 Cape Town concert for his AIDS foundation; moved by the women and children afflicted, she commits to maternal health causes ([49:44]-[53:52]).
• "Music is so strong. It carries messages, it inspires people, it tells stories. It goes deep to the heart and to the mind." ([50:08])

11. Reflection: Memoir, Legacy, and Advice for the Next Generation

• On assembling "Annie Lennox Retrospective," Lennox sees her life as a "shapeshifter," each era characterized by different performances, images, and emotions ([54:19]).
• "Looking back, I was just like, how the hell did we do it? How did we have such an output?" ([55:54])
• Offers advice to young artists about photo shoots: Know yourself, set boundaries, and do not be a passive puppet. "If it's going to be sexual, make sure that that's okay with you, that that's an aspect of yourself that you want to show...It's about you. So don't be scared. Don't just be a puppet." ([57:15], [58:19])
• If she could send an email to her younger self: "Don't worry so much...I suffered from stage fright for years...Just don't be afraid anymore." ([60:31])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Fame & Authenticity:
  “This thing of fame and exceptionalism can be very, very destructive. I think it’s such a powerful force that people actually almost sell their souls in a way. I just don’t, I don’t believe in it. I believe in the music...for me personally, that doesn’t work. I have to keep a part of myself. I don’t buy into the game.” — Annie Lennox ([44:18])

• On Visuals and Self-Styling:
  “I wasn’t trying to look like a man. I wanted to be an equal...It’s like, what is comfortable for you? What looks good on you? What do you feel good in?” — Annie Lennox ([31:36])

• On Creative Partnerships:
  “When you have nothing to lose and you have everything to gain, you just go for it 100%.” — Annie Lennox ([20:35])

• On Performance as Self-Discovery:
  "When I'm performing the songs that we wrote and I wrote, I'm actually being me...It's really embodying the deepest aspect of your being." — Annie Lennox ([34:25])

• On Activism:
  "Music is so strong. It carries messages, it inspires people, it tells stories. It goes deep to the heart and to the mind." — Annie Lennox ([50:08])

• On Advice for Young Artists:
  “If it’s going to be sexual, make sure that that’s okay with you, that that’s an aspect of yourself that you want to show...Don’t just be a puppet...It’s about you.” — Annie Lennox ([58:19])

• On Self-Acceptance and Anxiety:
  "Don't worry so much because I was very, very worried and I was very anxious and, you know, going on stage is not...it's still an element of, you know, I suffered from stage fright for years and years, and now I don't." — Annie Lennox ([60:31])

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Fame and Authenticity: [00:00], [44:18]
• Childhood and Musical Upbringing: [03:37]-[08:09]
• Formal Education and Moving to London: [10:45]-[13:18]
• Meeting Dave Stewart & The Tourists: [16:53]-[18:46]
• Eurythmics’ Visual Language: [22:44]-[26:00]
• Style and Androgyny: [29:30]-[32:56]
• Acting and Performance: [33:41]-[35:36]
• Collaborations and "Under Pressure" with Bowie: [36:11]-[41:41]
• On Fame, Comparison, and Identity: [42:33]-[44:18]
• Activism and Advocacy: [47:16]-[53:52]
• Memoir, Reflection, and Artist Advice: [54:04]-[60:31]

---

Conclusion

Annie Lennox's journey, as recounted in this episode, is one of creative courage, strategic self-possession, and profound humanity. Her reflections offer not just a behind-the-scenes look at pop history, but enduring lessons in remaining true to oneself, making bold statements through art, and leveraging a platform for greater good.

---

Transcript

[Annie Lennox]

This thing of fame and exceptionalism can be very, very destructive. I think it's such a powerful force that people actually almost sell their souls in a way. I just don't, I don't believe in it. I believe in the music and I believe in the magical aspects of music, but for me personally, that doesn't work. I have to keep a part of myself. I don't buy into the game. And so the shiny side that is popular, that is famous, that has screaming audiences and all of that, I don't think that's healthy.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life and welcome to the first episode of season 14, if you can believe it. I hope you all had a great summer. We have a fantastic season planned for you that will take us up the through to the holidays. And with the smash success of our first print issue, I'm happy to announce that in 2026 we'll be going biannual. We still have some super limited copies left of the first issue, so snag them online while you still [e-mail] My first guest of this fall season is someone who literally needs no introduction. Singer, songwriter, pop icon, activist, and just about the coolest Scottish mom you can imagine. Annie Lennox. Lennox was born in Aberdeen, Scotland, and after showing some aptitude for music as a young woman, she went on to study at the Royal Academy of Music. Her first success came from the rock band the Tourists.

[Interviewer]

Love the name, by the way.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Before starting Eurythmics with fellow Tourists member Dave Stewart. On today's episode, you'll hear the story of her career from the viewpoint of visual culture and how her work helped spur the no rules look of the 1980s, wild clothes, MTV and bigger personalities. It's all chronicled in her visual memoir, Annie Lennox Retrospective from Rizzoli, coming out later this month. In the book, you'll discover some of the stories and origins behind the looks and images that helped to make her a star. From the men's androgynous tailoring look of Sweet Dreams to the leather mask of her third album cover that instantly became iconic. I found Lennox to be just exactly as you'd want her to be. Curious, insightful and incredibly warm. But then after the interview, something curious happened. I started to come across some stories from my friends in various creative industries when they heard I had interviewed her. They each told me their own tale of how they crossed paths with this living legend. In one, it was about how incredibly generous she was without anyone knowing it. And in another, it was about her guidance that helped transform someone's musical career for the better. In other words, she's the real deal. And I think you'll feel that authenticity come across loud and clear. I caught up with Annie Lennox from her studio in LA to chat about her days as a child playing the flute, how an unplanned trip to a pawn shop changed her career forever. The formation of Eurythmics, the time she sang with David Bowie in a now unforgettable pop moment, how she first caught the activism bug, and much more.

[Interviewer]

So I'd love to start at the beginning. I read that you were born on Christmas Day in Aberdeen. Is that true?

[Annie Lennox]

That is true, yeah.

[Interviewer]

And it seems that both of your parents were sort of working class folks. And I was wondering if you could share with me maybe one of your earliest memories of life as a young girl.

[Annie Lennox]

Oh, my. I mean, when I think back to my childhood now I'm 70, I'll be 71 this year. I feel as if it was such a different time. You know, I was brought up in the 50s and 60s, really. Technology still had so little to do with general life, and we were in the post industrial age now. My father went to work in the shipyards. He followed his father. You know, I live in a. We all lived in this town that was on the northeast coast. It's Aberdeen. It's on the northeast coast of Scotland, and it's a coastal town. And it had had a massive shipping industry. And so shipbuilding, which is very common to Scotland, was very prevalent in those days. And it was a very hard life. And so unbeknown to me as a child, I lived in, looking back on it now, in quite a hardcore neighborhood. I mean, it wasn't rough, it didn't feel dangerous, but it was dark. It was. There were factories around. I passed a slaughterhouse on the way to catch the bus to go to school, you know, and in those days, I could walk to school and I'd be like 6 years old walking to school by myself, you know. Such different times. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Would your parents have described you as a well behaved child?

[Annie Lennox]

Yeah, I think as a little kid, I definitely was very well behaved because I was an only child. And there was a lot of attention put onto me because there's nobody else to. No other siblings to distract my parents, you know, and there's A lot expected of me in that regard. The school that I went to had a sort of motto, you know, and it was by learning and courtesy. So girls from Aberdeen High School. I got into kind of a posh school that wasn't in the local district. I managed to get into this school when I was very young and so it felt. I don't know if you've ever seen the film called the Pride of Miss Jean Brodie, but it's a classic, you have to see it. It's very entertaining. It has Maggie Smith playing a Scottish headmistress. It's absolutely brilliant. Anyway, so what it really shows is a very old fashioned Scottish school where the girls all have to be very well behaved. And I have part of my background is that. So I'm very well behaved until I'm not.

[Interviewer]

And when did music first enter your life? Because I believe that you studied some, you know, locally before you went on to the Royal Academy in London. So what did music mean to you in those growing up outside of a slaughterhouse and in, in an industrial part of.

[Annie Lennox]

Just down the street. Just down the street. Well, music, you know, I, when I think back, I can't imagine a time when there wasn't an element of music in my life. And when I see little children being pushed in their buggies and this music comes on and they, they nod their heads or they rock back and forth, I understand how incredibly receptive little children are to music. It's a fundamental thing. And I mean if, you know, everybody loves. Well, not everybody maybe, but most people I think, identify with music and have their favorite songs and pieces of music. And I mean, we did have a radio then. My father played the bagpipes. Believe it or not, my father played the bagpipes very well. So he used to practice on this practice chanter. So there was that and I think I was about three and there was a little toy piano bought for me and I was able to pick out little tunes on the piano. So my folks noticed that I could do things like that. And yeah, I loved music. I was singing when I was about six or seven in a local choir and learning about rhythm and about singing in tune and keeping time and just the fundamentals of music making, how to observe, how to listen. It's a skillful process. You know, making music is not just. It doesn't just come overnight. It takes years to learn how to play an instrument quite well.

[Interviewer]

And did you, I believe you played the flute, correct?

[Annie Lennox]

I did eventually, yeah. I started off playing piano when I was 7 and then when I was about 11, apparently there was a flute available. There was a school orchestra. Believe it or again, believe it or not, there was a school orchestra. And I didn't pay much attention to it. And then a music teacher said, would you be interested in playing flute? Because she heard there was a flute available. And I thought, I never thought about it, but then I thought, yeah, I'd love to learn how to play flute. And so I asked if I could do that because I think we had to pay a little extra for lessons. And apparently that was fine. I had this old flute that they gave me. It had elastic bands instead of springs with two or three elastic bands to stand in for the springs. It was poor, poor ancient flute that was half broken. But I got so interested in how to produce the tone, the sound, you know, and you can actually just practice with. For those flute budding flute players out there, you can just practice flute by just taking off the head, what they call the headpiece, and just blowing across. We have to learn how to make this thing called an embouchure. And I mean, it's crazy that these sounds come from a tiny little opening between both lips. And how you have to learn how to take in air and how to put it out in a certain way so that it sustains itself through the A phrase and then taking enough air to do it again for the next phrase. And I, I guess singing follows on from there in a way from, from flute playing. They're con. They're connected in some way.

[Interviewer]

And would you think that your dad kind of connected with it some way if he played the, the bagpipes or a wind instrument? And the flute is also.

[Annie Lennox]

I think he was probably. Yeah, I mean, it was very different to playing bagpipes, but that's a reed instrument. My God. I mean, I can't think of a harder instrument for anybody to play. It's very difficult instrument in all kinds of ways. I mean, the fingers have to do all these complicated, what they call trill notes. And you have to learn how to sort of move your fingers back and forth to create these ornamented trills. And they're so beautiful. But, you know, it's a skillful thing.

[Interviewer]

And when did, when did the idea of going to London to study music, when did that first come to play.

[Annie Lennox]

And how did you get it interesting? Gosh, I mean, it's funny when I. It's hard to bring up instances. Exactly when you had a thought, I had a thought, oh, I think this would be something I could do. I mean, Obviously, when I was handed the flute, I must have thought, I think I can try this. Why not? And so I knew that there were places to study. So I could have gone to the Scottish Academy of Music and Performing Art. I could have gone to the Royal College. I could have gone to. There's another one in Manchester, in England. There's various really good colleges and academies of music all over the country. And I got quite good at the flute and I felt like, oh, I think I can master this instrument. I think, you know, I could do it. And I had a picture in my mind because I always visualized, like playing in a small chamber orchestra. That would have been my picture, I guess, there I would have been playing in a chamber orchestra. But, you know, I didn't really understand it. I was just coming from my background. I wasn't really exposed to other. Many other, you know, I hadn't gone to many classical music concerts, really. I didn't listen much to records I couldn't afford. I couldn't afford them. So, I mean, it's quite a random thought really, but maybe I think my teachers must have encouraged me with this idea that, you know, if I. If I practice hard enough and if I pass the exams. You have to pass exams, you have to pass additions. And I did that, you know, and I got into the Royal Academy and I just didn't know what it really was all about. You don't know about things until you start doing them.

[Interviewer]

And while I don't think you finished the studies at.

[Annie Lennox]

The Royal Royal Academy.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, like soon after you were in a couple of bands and then you were. Then comes especially in the book, it you kind of lead into your time with the tourists. Fantastic name for a band, by the way. Of course I'm biased, you know, for your fans that only know you from, you know, the Eurythmic days. From the beginning. Tell us about the tourists and like, what that was like and. And how that started.

[Annie Lennox]

Well, I mean, probably a lot of people that have heard Eurythmics music, remember Reusmix music at our peak when we were in the 80s, you know, they probably think we just arrived there successful everywhere. But it wasn't like that. There were years of, you know, I had an ambition. So I knew. I mean, when I went to the Academy, I knew that wasn't the right place for me. So that was devastating because I knew I'd have three years to spend there and where was I heading into a place I didn't want to go. So I did drop out and it was very devastating for my parents because they had an idea that at least you get a certificate and you have something to prove that you've been there. But I dropped out, so they were very upset about that. But I knew eventually. It took me a while, but eventually I realized, ah, I think I could be a singer songwriter. Yeah, that's what I want to do, you know, I'll take the poems that I've been writing and I'll adapt them and they could become lyrics for songs. And I've been taught so much that I was rebelling against being taught. So singing, I went back to singing because I really hadn't been taught, over taught, you know. And I felt with classical music it was just too much. I didn't have that kind of discipline, you know. So I went around with this notion that I wanted to be a singer songwriter. I wanted to record songs, I wanted to perform songs, I want to make records, you know. But I mean, how do you do that? It's still difficult to know how you begin. And in those days there were so few female singer songwriters or, you know, people that performed. I mean, my. My heroines were people like Dusty Springfield and Petula Clark and. And Aretha Franklin and Diana Ross and all the female singers of the 60s and the 50s 60s, you know, I loved all of those people, but I never. They were not role models to me because I never. They were so beyond anything that was possibly achievable. You know, they were stars. But then I met Dave. By complete happenstance, he just happened to know someone that I knew. And this is the way things happen, you know, I met him and I had been offered a publishing contract and I had no clue as to what a publishing contract even was. I had this piece of paper, you know, and I was asking people. I was working in a. In around Dingwall's in Camden Lock Market. I was selling secondhand clothes and waitressing and doing all sorts of stuff like that to feed myself, you know. And Dave is a friend of a friend of mine that had a record stall in Camden Lock Market. And he. Paul. Paul Jacobson, he introduced me to Dave. And we just got on and we just had everything to talk about. And it was like I finally felt I met somebody that understood me because I didn't understand myself at all. I just didn't.

[Dan Rubenstein]

How so?

[Interviewer]

What did he see in you that maybe you didn't realize?

[Annie Lennox]

Well, I played him a couple of my songs. I had an old harmonium in a bed sit that I had living in Camden Town. And I played him a few songs and I sang to him, and immediately he's like, whoa, you've got a really good voice. You know, you can do this. This is. Wow. I haven't heard this very often. And so that was a piece of recognition, you know. And he said to me, you're an artist. You shouldn't be. You don't need to be waitressing. Because I didn't want to be waitressing, but, you know, I had to put food on the table. So, like a lot of musicians, you have to kind of work doing odd jobs. It's quite interesting in a way, that I'm talking about this, because this background as to how do you become successful, how do you establish yourself in any kind of way? And it is. These are all funny stories and all of it is synchronistic. And there was never really a plan or a plot, except, you know, we just have to take opportunities as they might come our way. So Dave was working with his friend Pete Coombs, and they were writing songs together. And Dave took me to meet Pete, and we didn't really discuss it very much, but we just ended up assuming that there'd just be three of us. And that was actually at the very, very beginning. We called ourselves the Catch. And again, we went into so many long stories. I don't want to bore anybody who's listening, but, you know, I met Dave. I therefore met Pete, who'd been writing loads of songs. We ended up calling ourselves the Tourists. We got a record deal, bizarrely enough, with a new record label called Logo Records. And at that time, punk was starting and we both felt very drawn towards it. You know, the hippie thing was kind of fading off, and I was too young to be a hippie, but I was a little bit too old to be a punk. So I was kind of caught in between the two things, you know. But in the end, your age didn't really matter. It's more about your attitude, really, and the. The quality of the work that you do, you know. But anyway, you know, we ended up with this band called the Tourists, and we actually did quite well in a way that we toured and we went. We went all around Europe and we recorded three albums. And. Yeah, and that was. These are all, like, chapters. And I put them all down to experience for me, because all the lessons that I needed to learn before Dave and I created this notion of just the two of us, nobody else, just the two of us. And we're going to focus on creating a sound, creating a style, creating an ethos, you know, an identity as to who we are that really expresses who we are musically and expresses our attitude to life and to the world. And so when Dave and I finally ended up, just the two of us and we decided to call ourselves Eurythmics, and we had a whole kind of set of experiences behind us that stood us in good stead, actually, in a way, because there's always lessons to be learned. You know, when you're a neophyte at anything, you have no clue. I mean, Dave knew a bit more than me because he's a little bit older and had had more experience than me. But I was catching up really quick. And, you know, we were both very determined because we had nothing to lose. And when you have nothing to lose and you have everything to gain, you just go for it 100%. And I think it's part of that energy that we sunk into Eurythmics, you know.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Before we return to our guest, a word from our sponsor, Lumens. Sourcing great design online can be a challenge. There are hundreds of incredible brands from around the globe, but finding all of these objects online can sometimes feel like an endless task. Thankfully, we have lumens.com, the incredible online platform for furniture, lighting and accessories. At this digital destination, you'll find dozens of luxurious brands, from legendary names like Louis Polsen, Cappellini, Alessi and Tom Dixon to more hard to find editor favorite labels such as Petit Frateur, in common with Rosie Lee and many, many more. Of course, if you're a fan of the Grand Tourist, then you'll know how important authentic design is. And that's one of my many reasons to shop on lumens.com everything from the 400 brands on site are vetted for authenticity, not to mention its world class customer support that ensures your next project is as flawless as possible. But even if you're not in the market, you might find yourself doing what I do quite often, shopping on lumens.com to get inspired and discover new designs and designers, and to keep your mind's eye as up to date and sharp as possible. To source everything you need for a truly curated lifestyle, visit lumens.com that's L U M E N S.com.

[Interviewer]

And there's a lovely story at the end of the tourists and the beginning of the Eurythmics in the book involving a pawn shop camera. And I was wondering if you could tell us about that and how sort of Dave's impulse purchase had such an effect on that next dramatic phase of your life.

[Annie Lennox]

Oh, things. Things sometimes fell into place and sometimes things just went from bad to worse. But we were in Australia for our sins, and the band, the Tourists, had split up and I was left, like. Pete went back to England and I was left, like, having to sing the songs. We had to finish a tour. We had to do this tour. We were contracted to do it. And so.

[Interviewer]

So even though you'd broken up, you had to finish the tour?

[Annie Lennox]

Yeah, we had to.

[Interviewer]

Oh, gosh.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Okay.

[Annie Lennox]

Yeah, yeah. And so I just stepped in and sang. I think maybe Dave might have done a bit of singing, I don't know. But we were just on this club and pub tour, and it was hardcore, you know, it's very Spinal Tap, really, and. God. Anyway, we were in Sydney, Australia, which is a really. I love Sydney. It's a great city, actually. And we were in a certain area of the city where there were some. A row of cafes in the street. And we were just walking down the street and Dave spotted a solid gold charm bracelet on the. On the pavement. And he picked it up, he said to me, look. Look at this. I said, oh, my God. Must belong to somebody in the cafe. So we went in and we asked for the manager, and we said, we found this gold bracelet. And has anybody come to ask that's been said they'd lost a bracelet. And he said, no, but I'll take it. And we said, no, give us your number, and if anybody comes, we'll bring it back.

[Interviewer]

Good point.

[Annie Lennox]

So anyway, nobody called us. Nothing happened. And we had this gold bracelet. So it was in those days of poverty. So we were like, okay, well, it must mean it's ours then. So Dave went off to the pawn shop and he pawned this bracelet who belonged to somebody. And my God, thank you very much. Whoever it belonged to. But he bought a little video camera. And, you know, this is back in the day when you had Sony Walkmans and just about to have Sony Walkmans. I mean, we have technology now that's way beyond anybody's dreams. But back then, to have a little portable camera with a little. You know, we had little cassettes that you would film on these little cassettes. And so he was like, you know, we can do our own filming. We can. So the visual element of Eurythmics was very important to us because it was like, not only did we have these songs, but we had to say something visually. And we loved it because it was like storytelling. And you could create scenarios, like the very. The most significant one of all, which is sweet Dreams. I think as far as our, you know, people know that song everybody knows Sweet Dreams, more or less. And the video, which was Dave's concept of having a board table with a cow walking around freely while we. While he types on a prototype computer, I mean, it's gold. This is amazing picture that Dave had in his mind. And it was so left field, it was so utterly surreal. But I totally understood what he meant by it. I understood the symbology in it. And all of the elements in that video are deliberate. There's nothing that is just random and it doesn't matter. It's all a statement about modernity and future and success and the natural world and so many things. You know, as human beings, we're only here for such a brief period of time. And yet if you live to be as old as I am, you see these changes taking place. You know, I remember hearing the Beatles for the first time. I mean, that as and of itself is a remarkable thing.

[Interviewer]

When you were. Sorry, when you were experimenting with things like visuals in that early camcorder and things like that. This was around the time when MTV and the sort of the, you know, the video killed the radio star. Yeah, all that stuff was happening.

[Annie Lennox]

It was about. It was just very early stages.

[Interviewer]

Just the early beginnings was that, you know, when you were talking to managers and people about the Eurysmics and everything, was that a part of the conversation at the time? Like, oh, you got to be on TV and you got to have video and what are you going to do and all that?

[Annie Lennox]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it was. There were all kinds of things going on. There were all kinds of things that had to be taken care of. There was equipment that had to be accessed. There was a place to record with this equipment. You know, there were albums that needed to be made, there were time schedules, there were tours that needed to be done, there were interviews that needed to be done. You know, radio, press, tv, there were performances on television, there were videos to be made. I mean, what needs to be done, what goes on behind the scenes of any sort of aspiring musician or successful musician is much, much more than anybody that's not in the music industry can possibly imagine.

[Interviewer]

And was any part of that kind of new that was compared to when you were at the tourists? Because the times were changing and you were kind of.

[Annie Lennox]

Yes, it was. It was very new. Because here was the thing, the one element that was so remarkable was that you could purchase for, you know, if you had some kind of budget, you could purchase a drum machine, you could buy do you remember those wonderful pads that people like Phil Collins always used to play on them? Do, do, do, do like this. Everybody was like, that's the sound. Oh, my God, we can afford that sound. Or maybe we'll use milk bottles. And we just won't bother about technology, you know, but it was all about creativity and scheduling and trying to come up with this. And so we were just running. We were running.

[Interviewer]

And in the book, there's some mention that a little bit of this, an early kind of androgynous look and what people identified in the press as androgyny actually kind of came from you pulling menswear from vintage shops and that that was kind of what you could afford. And in a sense. Or that overlapped with a little bit. Or is that. Am I giving too much emphasis on that?

[Annie Lennox]

No, not so much, but it's more that. Actually, Dave and I had been making lots of. We'd been in lots of photo sessions with different photographers over the years. And finally, you know, we had our autonomy, just the two of us, so we didn't have to ask other people, like, is it? How about this? We just kind of knew we were very, very in tune with each other. So that was a great thing at the time. And we came to Sweet Dreams. Sweet Dreams was the convergence of all the things that we'd learned. It became like a very, very clear statement over time. And so before we did this photo session with Louis Zolczek, actually the COVID of the book is just a portrait. It's just a headshot. And that was the day when Dave and I had brought two cheap men's outfitters, suits that fitted us. We just. They were cheap. We went into a store and we bought them for about 30 quid or something, and we both wore them. And I put makeup on. So I wasn't trying to look like a man. I wanted to be an equal. That was more the thinking behind it. I didn't want to be an objectified pretty girl. It just wasn't part. I didn't feel comfortable in it. It's like I'm not much of a. I do wear dresses from time to time, but you'll very rarely see me in a dress just because I'm more comfortable in trousers and pants, you know, so it's like, what is comfortable for you? What looks good on you? What do you feel good in? And after I cut my hair like that and colored it like that, it was very. It was quite radical at the time. You know, nowadays, radical. We've seen everything Almost. So nothing is shockworthy anymore, but. And I wasn't really trying to shock. It was just. That was how I felt. I felt radical. I felt like making a statement. When you have been through the mill and you don't have much access to means of any kind, you know, you have to make it up yourself. And I saw, as a performer, I thought, it's a statement. What you wear is a statement. You know, it has to be like, you have to be this person. So I didn't like Dave and I discussed this and he said to me one day, you know, you have to look the way you are all the time. And I was like, what do you mean, all the time? I just, you know, I just wear what I want to wear. He said, no, we're stepping it up now. You have to become. And I thought about this, and it didn't take me too long. Once we had the music and everything was going together, it was unquestionably. I knew what Eurythmics looked like. I knew how I felt. I just knew what was right for me and I knew what was wrong, you know, so stylists, at that point, I don't even think there were any. I honestly don't think that was a job.

[Interviewer]

Did anybody warn. Did anybody in, like a music label kind of be like, what are you doing? Why are you doing this?

[Annie Lennox]

Oh, yeah, people were. Yeah, people were confounded by us. They just didn't know what to make of us at all until we had success, that is, selling lots of records, you know, and then it's easy. Then they've discovered you and they always knew you all along.

[Interviewer]

And speaking of the sort of. The video or the visual part of it, there are some sort of adventures in acting that are covered briefly in the book, namely the film Revolution, which I'm sort of fascinated by because I, sad to say, I wasn't familiar with the film. And I watched a trailer on YouTube, which you can. And Al Pacino's in it, and it's mid-80s, and it's sort of this amazing cast and crew that was part of this historical film. Was that something that you. Did someone come to you say, you should be an actor? Or is that you wanted to act.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Or how did that happen?

[Annie Lennox]

People came to me very often, actually, and at one point I even did have an acting agent. And people said to me, you should. You know, people often say, you should do this, you should do that, you should be an actor or an actress. But I always felt I wouldn't mind trying, you know, because it seems like it's something I could do. Certainly I could be a character actor. I think I could do that. I kind of know myself, you know, I know what I can't do very well, certainly. But the things I think I can do, I usually can. So I think acting could have been it. But then I realized that actually when you're on stage as a singer and you're a performer, you're expressing the song through your body, through your entire body. You know, you're standing there, you're moving, the sound is coming from your body, you're exhaling breath that is going out to the audience, that's amplified through a microphone. That's a very intense physical thing to be doing. And acting is a different set of skills. And I'm not sure that I want to be somebody else. I think when I'm performing the songs that we wrote and I wrote, I'm actually being me, you know, really at the core, at the soul level, that is very much who I am. It's not the average person that you sort of sit and have a coffee with or, or have a conversation with. It's not. It's really embodying the deepest aspect of your being. That's honestly the way I see it. And it might sound a bit odd to some people, but I've always understood music to be a very profound experience.

[Interviewer]

You know, and of course I would be totally remiss. One of my favorite parts of the book is your performance with David Bowie for a Freddie Mercury tribute concert, which is now the look that you had. And there's sort of like an eye makeup, kind of like a bandit sort of mask, in a sense. That was so performative and was a one off, if I'm not mistaken. Can you tell me about that and how that came to be, this sort of one off thing that just kind of became so, yeah, I mean, I've.

[Annie Lennox]

Done a lot of one offs like that and I kind of have loved to do them in a way because they're challenging. And I was invited, you know, simply they asked me if I'd like to sing a Queen song. You know, obviously it was. They were Freddie's songs. I mean, I think he wrote that one with John Lennon, if I'm right. It's a very complex song to sing. Once I'd said yes, I'd love to do that, that sounds like a perfect thing to do. And to perform as David Bowie, I mean, it was. No, I hadn't met David before. It was the first time I really met him. I think. I think it was the first time I met him. I get muddled up now with time, but the rehearsal was the really, you know, being sort of dropped into the deep end of the pond, really, because the song is difficult. It's not. I can't. I can't say it wasn't challenging, you.

[Interviewer]

Know, it was under pressure. Correct?

[Annie Lennox]

Under. Under pressure, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Because that was what he sang with him. So you were really kind of standing in for.

[Annie Lennox]

I was standing in for Freddie.

[Interviewer]

Freddie Mercury, which is.

[Annie Lennox]

Yeah, okay. Some people would say that's quite. Quite a challenge, you know, because all the Queen fans and the Freddie fans would be like, no, it's rubbish. But I. I took it on and it was. Everything was very of the moment. So, you know, we did our run through. I think we only did. Played the song once or twice together, and they filmed it. So this part of that rehearsal was you can find on YouTube, which is wonderful, really. And I think I just had a baby as well. So, you know, I was a mother. And that's a completely different role to play. Being a rock star rocks. Stepping in for a rock legend, standing next to a rock legend.

[Interviewer]

And I remember it's a big billowy dress. Maybe that was.

[Annie Lennox]

Yeah, well, that was. The point, was that he said to me, what are you wearing? And I said, oh, I don't know yet. I have no idea. And he said, well. And he was very camp and very funny and he said, well, why don't you go to Anthony Price and get yourself a frock? Now, Anthony Price, at the time was a legendary, incredible film. Excuse me, a dressmaker. When I say dress, it was very sort of high, high. And I'd never, ever gone to Anthony Price for a frock. And it would have cost in the region of a couple of grand, you know. So I never spent money on frocks like that. But I decided it was such an important thing to do. I would go to Anthony Price and I had to be fitted specially. And I had something in mind. You know, that frock that I wore, I thought it has to be like, massive black and it needs, like crinoline underneath to make it flare out. And it should be like armor, like Joan of Arc, you know. So we found the silver material, and so it just fitted the body very simply. But it, you know. And then when I was in the dressing room, I remember I was thinking, oh, I think I know what I'm gonna do. Cause I sat in the dressing room for about seven hours before that performance, which was quite intense. And I Just sat there and I was just playing with makeup, you know, and I thought, yeah, that does it. That's exactly what it is. And it's almost like funereal. I feel that figure is death, you know, because it was about AIDS and hiv, and I could enter into this Persona of imminent sort of darkness and that's. And to almost seduce him. But it was all.

[Interviewer]

Was that seductive kind of. Just intuitive on the moment. Absolutely discussed it before.

[Annie Lennox]

Absolutely intuitive. I was just like, huh, maybe I can just go up to him. You know, maybe I'll just. I'd never. I'd never even gone near him. I mean, when we rehearsed, we were standing apart from each other. But then, yeah, it just worked. And he was so such a showman that he got it instantly, you know, he knew what to do. And he just. I felt him like, just stand stock still and just look out unflinchingly. And I thought, oh, he gets it. He's playing with me now. That's great. And you can see it happening. That's what's so thrilling about it. You see this exchange. It's a silent exchange between two performers. And everything just fell into place. I think I get goosebumps talking about it now to you. It just fell into place. And I think he was a bit stunned. I was stunned. I was stunned that we'd actually done it. And it felt so good because Queen were just like this quintessential brilliant band. I mean, the drums, the bass, the guitar, everything was just brilliant. And they were on their game because, you know, they probably hadn't played that song since they accompanied Freddie. So it was very, very highly charged stuff.

[Interviewer]

And there is a New York Times review of your New York City debut that I kind of looked up, which was at the Ritz.

[Annie Lennox]

Oh, my gosh.

[Interviewer]

Where they connected your look with Bowie. And they mentioned Bowie and they mentioned Grace Jones, of course. Amazing people to be compared to. But it felt like very 80s and described your performance as having a, quote, ominous, feline intensity. I don't know if you remember that. That quote.

[Annie Lennox]

I don't.

[Interviewer]

But now that I think about you, the performance with. With Bowie, there is a kind of that silky, nimble. Maybe a feline may. May not be what I would choose, but there. And in that era of like, you know, these megastars of, you know, everyone is compared to some other big giant 80s. Oh, always.

[Annie Lennox]

Always compared to.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Yeah.

[Annie Lennox]

Somebody else.

[Interviewer]

Did you find it hard at the time, you know, in that era of like, Bowie and Michael Jackson and Gris Jones? And these bigger than life personalities to kind of carve your own path. Were you annoyed by these comparisons?

[Annie Lennox]

No. Oh, no, no, no. I mean, I'd be honored and flattered to be compared to anybody as brilliant as that, you know, But I think I understood very early on I need to be myself. You know, I can't be sort of half this and half something else. I really. Because people always compared the voice, you know, to other singers. Until I had my own voice sound, my own vocal sound that was very identifiable, you know, and I was working on that all the time, just kind of trying to find. It's like trying to find the voice, but it's also the voice to who you are. It's not just the singing voice, but it's who am I as a person and as a performer. And all the rehearsals I ever did, all the performances I ever gave, they were all like lessons every time in perfecting it and making it stronger. What could be improved? What could I do differently? Which ideas could we bring into this? How do we present this? You know, everything was thought, very much thought through, but ultimately you as a performer, you have to be you. No question. I mean, Grace Jones, how could anybody. There's no one can be Grace Jones. No one. It's a standalone. David Bowie standalone, Michael Jackson standalone. This is the level that these artists were on.

[Interviewer]

Do you think you stand alone? I think you do.

[Annie Lennox]

I think I do. It's different. I'm not. I don't see myself. You see, I've been through so much and I've been exposed to being famous and well known, you know, that everybody knows your name and everybody recognizes you and all of that. And I've rebelled against that too, because in a way, I don't buy into it. I think it's my Scottish background. I think that as much as I worshiped music and certain kinds of music, I've always thought, where's the human being in all of this? You know, they can't just be the starry star 24 7. And I think what happens is that, yeah, I think what happens is that this thing of fame and exceptionalism can be very, very destructive. I think it's such a powerful force that people actually almost sell their souls in a way. They may not realize it at the time, but, you know, it's like imagine, if you will, people from tribal places telling photographers, don't take our picture. This is our souls that you're taking now. And I think in a way, the photographic image, in a sense, takes an aspect of your soul. That you're kind of. It's a representation of who you are each time and you have to be very careful what you're seeing in those photographs. And if it's just coming, it's just, you know, oh, now I'm going to sell this product and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. For me personally, that doesn't work. I have to. I have to keep a part of myself and I've tried to do this over the years. Just, I don't buy into the game, you know, I just don't. I don't believe in it. I believe in the music and I believe in the magical aspects of music. But that aspect when, you know, many, many gifted people have died, right, if you think about it, and they died too young and they died because they were expected to be superhuman and they were human after all. And so the shiny side that is popular, that is famous, that has screaming audiences and all of that and driven off in limousines and living from five star hotel to the next five star hotel, I don't think that's healthy. So I think it's good to make your own bed, it's good to go do your shopping, good to have your feet on the ground, good to know that you're a human being as well as this is. The other stuff is projection. It's all projection from my perspective, you.

[Interviewer]

Know, and obviously this is probably a good point to bring up the role that advocacy has played in your life and you've been so impactful in that. And was there a genesis moment where this kind of began? And obviously I'm thinking of the 80s and the AIDS crisis and was there an aha moment or a genesis moment of that in your life?

[Annie Lennox]

Well, there've been many, there's just been many.

[Interviewer]

Or the first.

[Annie Lennox]

It could be one or it could be the first. But, you know, I've got activism in my blood, it's in my DNA. My father's side of the family were very socially, politically, very active, you know, and even my grandparents, particularly in the years before, in between the first and second world wars, they were out on the streets fighting fascism and, you know, really actually literally fighting fascism at the factory gates in Scotland. So that activism is in my Lennox blood, although I don't necessarily see myself as aligned to any political party. I just don't. I just, I'm very disillusioned with politics. But that's my own personal thing. Yes. One time I was, and this is a good story, actually, I was Very kindly Sting, and I'm dropping a name here. I'm sorry, guys, but Sting is a friend. I know. I consider him to be a good friend. And he. Very kindly. Well, him and Trudy allowed me and my husband to stay in there. They had a loft on Hudson street and the. And they were very, very generous and said, you can come and you can just stay there. And so we were staying there anyway. And he had a music stand, as you would expect, in his living room. And on the music stand, there was something. It was a letter from Amnesty International thanking him for his involvement in the Amnesty International tour with Tracy Chapman and Yusu Nudur and Peter Gabriel. I don't know that you're maybe too young to remember that.

[Interviewer]

I remember those names, of course.

[Annie Lennox]

Yeah. But it was a very significant tour, you know, and they went to different countries and it was on behalf of Amnesty. And I had a bit of fomo. That's fear of missing out, because I honestly thought, that's the kind of gig I want to play. And we did. You know, Eurythmics had opportunities to. To get involved. I mean, Live Aid came and unfortunately, I had a nodule on my vocal cord at the time, and I was being told not to speak, not to sing, and I had to rest my voice. And that happened around the time of Live Aid. So we weren't on Live Aid, although we were invited to take part. So that was another disappointment. So I was having these kind of opportunities, but then I couldn't do it. So I always had this thing like, music is so strong. It's such a. It carries messages, it inspires people, it tells stories. You know, it goes deep to the heart and to the mind. And I thought, oh, I want to do something. And eventually the craziest thing that really got me hooked into it was, I mean, this again, this sounds like a crazy story, but there was a concert held in cape town in 2004 in South Africa, and it was to launch Nelson Mandela's HIV AIDS program at that time, and it was a foundation. Do excuse me. And. Well, anyway, I'll try and cut it short, but I had the opportunity. Through the performances and all the other artists that came, we were all introduced to Nelson Mandela and he took us to Robben Island. And his focus at that time, it was post presidential era in his life, but he started to focus on hiv, AIDS because he hadn't been able to do so in his presidency. And actually his son had died of aids. So there was a personal reason for bringing it out of the Stigma and bringing it out into the air for people to stop being ashamed of it. Because there was one in five people were dying of AIDS at that time. I mean, imagine that. And then he said, especially women. Women are mothers who are carrying babies, and the babies are. You know, the virus is transmitted to the babies. And I thought to myself, well, I'm a mother. I have that in common. And I know what it's like to have lost a child, because I did lose a child. And I felt, doesn't matter, my skin color, my culture, it doesn't make any difference. I'm a woman on this planet. And all women deserve to have decent maternal health care so that they don't die when they're giving birth. The babies don't die. You know, you have a successful outcome. And then I discovered that actually there is a process that can happen immediately after the baby's delivered where the mother doesn't have to pass the virus onto the baby so the baby can be born free of aids. Basically, a child born with AIDS will last until their fifth birthday unless they're given some intervention. And nobody knows, nobody talks about women and aids. They often. It's a very un. You know, but in Africa at that time, you know, so many young women were affected with aids, and young men and old people and everybody, everybody through the whole society, right from the topmost rung all the way down to the poorest people, or I should say all the way up. But politicians, teachers, doctors, nurses, people working in the bureaucracy, people serving you in the shops. One in five, just imagine that, you know, and they're dying. And now it's going to go back again to those awful days because, you know, there have been massive cuts in aid. So unfortunately, I dread to think, you know, what is going to be the future quite soon in the countries that are affected with hiv, we're going to go back to the awful days of the pandemic.

[Interviewer]

And, you know, putting a book like this together from all these different phases of your career, you know, can be kind of a cathartic experience and give you a new perspective, because you can look at everything in one little volume.

[Annie Lennox]

True.

[Interviewer]

All your whole life in one little book.

[Annie Lennox]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer]

What now, when you. When you look at that, these previews before the book's been printed, now that you can see it all in one place, does it give you a new perspective on any element of your life, looking back?

[Annie Lennox]

Oh, that's a good question. I spent my time as a shapeshifter. Really. I mean, I was always thinking of the Next thing to do and how I could present myself through music and performance to an audience that I could share a humanity through music, you know, and the videos certainly were very powerful statements in their way. And I wanted to embody different aspects of being human. So, you know, the songs, let's say, might have rage in them, they might have anger in them, they might have jealousy in them, they might have love or unrequited love. There's so many aspects. There's so many aspects of humanity that were expressed through these songs and. And visually through the performances and the movements. There's a lot of irony in a lot of what our statements are. They're beautiful, beautiful melodies with really dark messaging behind them. Sort of existential angst that runs through many of these songs. You know, they're dark, and people that really are familiar with them will appreciate the different layers that exist there. So looking back, I was just like, how the hell did we do it? I mean, how did we have such an output? I mean, the thing is, There were over 6,000 images in the cloud that were just captured in this. Whatever cloud looks like. I don't know if it looks like anything.

[Interviewer]

A server somewhere. Yeah.

[Annie Lennox]

You know, I always imagine like this puffy cumulus cloud.

[Interviewer]

If only. Yeah.

[Annie Lennox]

Filled with content. Isn't that funny? But, you know, music's invisible. You know, ideas are invisible. They have to be manifest in some way. And so it starts with an idea. It just starts with one idea. And I thought, wow, everything, the looks, the characters, all of it. I mean, there's so many layers to all of it. There's so many things that had to be done. And arriving this Eurythmics, the two of us in front of Louis Zolczek's camera is very, very reminiscent. That's why there's a lot of images from Sweet Dreams, because that was the point. That was the moment that we became empowered, really.

[Interviewer]

And, you know, the book pays a lot of tributes to these photographers that you mentioned and artists you've collaborated with over the years. And if a young musician came to you today and said, annie, I'm about to do my first big shoot for an album cover, you know, what did. And I'm gonna be staring at some, I don't know, like a really big name photographer from Vogue or, I don't know, something, and we're doing an album cover, what is your advice to them when they step into the studio to kind of create something?

[Annie Lennox]

Well, you know, if you're working with a top class photographer, you've usually Got some experience already in working with them because the top class photographers don't come to new artists. So. Or, but maybe sometimes they do because they want to experiment or they want to find sort of fresh subjects. But very rarely, usually you're working with people that are aspiring. I mean, when you're sort of. So I would say the first instance. So give me that one again because are we talking about somebody that's experienced or someone that is inexperienced, that's working with a great photographer?

[Interviewer]

Well, let's say it's a. It's a young musician doing their first shoot.

[Annie Lennox]

Okay. So the record company, they've given them a deal and they've got some budget.

[Interviewer]

First time they go into a studio in front of bright lights and strobe lights and.

[Annie Lennox]

Right.

[Interviewer]

And they're about to, to. To immortalize on film or digital.

[Annie Lennox]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What their look is and what they're saying to the world. And they've got to do this with the photographer that, you know, whoever it is.

[Annie Lennox]

I think I would ask, who are you and what do you want to say? And is there a way that you want to say this? Are there things that are your boundary that you will not cross or are the things that you would like to experiment with? Talk to the photographer and explain to them how you want to be perceived? I mean, they need to have a sense of you. If you just come on like a blank slate and you just stand in front of the camera, that you can do that. But then maybe the photographer will try to make something of you. I mean, for a woman back in the day, I was always feeling that, you know, they want something more sexual from you. If it's going to be sexual, make sure that that's okay with you, that that's an aspect of yourself that you want to show. I mean, Cardi B has no problem with her sexuality being shown and she uses it to the max, you know, that is who she is. That's part of her identity. It's not part of mine. You know what I mean? It's not like one artist is different to another artist. How different are you? How would you ideally like to be presented? But I don't think you can know that until you've experimented a bit. So those early days with those friends that you might have that kind of aspiring to be a photographer, those are gold days, golden days, because you can experiment with them and you can figure it out. And so that by the time you get to the really great photographer, you could know not to be intimidated by that. It's about you. So don't be scared. Don't just be a puppet. You know, you don't have to be a puppet to anybody.

[Interviewer]

And because of this book and all the memories that it brings up. If you could write an email to yourself in 1983 that would be received by you in those very, you know, in the heyday of Taurus, leading into the Eurythmics, what would the email say? What would you tell.

[Annie Lennox]

I would say, don't worry so much because I was very, very worried and I was very anxious and, you know, going on stage is not. It's. Even when you're used to it, it's still an element of, you know, I suffered from stage fright for years and years, and now I don't. I decided just to take it. Take it under control and just not to be nervous anymore. Just. I've had so many things that were, you know, strong experiences in my life that I thought, well, why. Why are you so afraid when you've been through so much? Just don't be afraid anymore. Just like the audiences are not there to. They're not out to get you, you know, your fear doesn't have to get in the way. My intention in making this book was basically that I just have been through so much and my life story is so unusual, coming from my background and the things. So many things went wrong. So un. Many things went wrong. And yet magically, somehow, some things went right. And so it was a question of like snakes and ladders. You know, you're going down the snakes and up the ladders and you never know what's going to happen. Oh, my God. I'm right back at the beginning again. What are we going to do? It's hopeless. And then, oh, I just got a double six. How did that happen? You know, we really lived on the edge. We lived as artists and we. We knew that had to be in our destiny somehow, Somehow or another. And we made that happen. So in a way, I just want to share that this is not the whole story. The book. I always think, oh, I could do another book. There's so many books. I could do a series of books with all. I'd love to do it. It was such fun to make. So it's just. It's going to be nice that I can have conversations with people and I'm not performing. You know, I'm just talking about a life lived through performance and what that entails. And it's even performance in the photographs because you're bringing. It's a frozen moment and all these frozen moments are. That's what your life is made of from day to day. Creating a photo session or video, or doing this or doing that. And that's my life. Not bad.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Thank you to my guest, Annie Lennox, as well as to everyone at Rizzoli for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don't forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, the Grand Tourist [e-mail] and follow me on Instagram DanRubenstein. And don't forget, you can purchase the first ever print issue of the Grand Tourist online now on on our website. Just a few copies left. And follow the Grand Tourist on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. And leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next time.