← The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein
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- [00:00]
Claudio Morenzi
You know, it's a brand of technical elegance. Garments mean to be live in, not just look at. He has an Italian identity with an international look.
- [00:16]
Dan Rubenstein
Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour. Filled worlds of fashion, art, architecture, free food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life. As a design person, I've always viewed the world of fashion from that point of view. Everything created should have a reason. A material should perform as intended and chosen carefully. And function should always be triumphant over form. Of the many long standing luxury brands in the world today, one house in particular stands out as an insider's favorite that's just as consistently wearable as it is elegant. Herno, the brand started in 1948 with functional cotton raincoats treated with castor oil left over from the war period. And partly inspired by the humid environments around Lake Maggiore where the company was founded. And over time, it's steadily grown and expanded into a more fully fledged fashion collection with stores around the globe. And like all good Italian companies, the leadership has stayed within the family. My guest today is Claudio Morenzi, the son of the founder Giuseppe, and who has overseen a remarkable transformation of the brand since his appointment as CEO in 2007. He's not only someone who has looked after his own family business, but he's been a leader in the world of Italian fashion as well.
- [01:36]
Interviewer
He's been the head of multiple high.
- [01:37]
Dan Rubenstein
Profile organizations such as Petit Imagineer and Systemamota. I caught up with Mr. Marenzi from his headquarters to discuss how his father groomed him to take over the brand that he grew into a performance driven empire. How the fashion universe in Italy has evolved since he took over, what what his American clients think about the brand and what makes them different and his hopes for the next generation.
- [02:05]
Interviewer
So, you know, I'd love to start at the beginning. And I read that you were born in Arona, which is in the Piedmont region, a little bit west of Milan, for those who don't know. And it's a place with a strong connection to the world of Verno and to your brand. And tell me a little bit about your early life and growing up there.
- [02:25]
Claudio Morenzi
You know, the going was like a typical province life, you know, because we are, as you said, in the northbound in west of Milan and a small village in Leyza near Arona. It is a city quite big, but lesa is like 5,000 people. So really the deep province Of Italy. So let's say the life was anyway in that area like that. But on the other side we are very close to the craftsmanship and business. They co exited in this area. So my early years were about observing workshop. Then the material people commercial. So let's say I pass all my summer vacation in the summer working in the company. So through the.
- [03:26]
Interviewer
What did they make you do?
- [03:27]
Claudio Morenzi
I start to cutting room in the cutting room and iron press, sewing, the operation, generally speaking, logistics. So that was my let's say early life in. In the company.
- [03:43]
Interviewer
Were you good at it? Were you good at steaming and pressing?
- [03:45]
Claudio Morenzi
I love it, I love it, I love it. All the. The let's say the procedure. And as far as love even the commercial part. Let's say that my father has a premium. They brought. They always brought me to. To Pitti. So I start I making my first pit in the 78. And for me coming from the lake, you know, going to Pitti, it was like go to New York. So yeah, it's a big deal to.
- [04:14]
Interviewer
Go to a big fashion show like that.
- [04:16]
Claudio Morenzi
And I even see the. The customer that I was shoeing with. So I recognized them. So it was incredible for me. So really incredible period. Yeah.
- [04:31]
Interviewer
Okay. And so tell me a little bit about the company. Your father founded it in 48 in the post war years. And tell me about how this sort of idea it came up and tell me about what the beginnings of the company were like.
- [04:52]
Claudio Morenzi
You know, my father, let's say teach us more with his life than in words. The family is the company and the company is the family. So it's really Italian way. There is no almost a difference. So the company shaped my sense of responsibility. And really that was the family and the company together. Let's say my father, our father, the company, the work to a sport. Especially at the beginning when we were very young. So it was easy for us to understand about the competition, about the deal. Everything was very. Everything was about a competition and to be trained, trained to have results. So achieve the goal through a deep training. And this is my opinion was very important event for our life.
- [06:06]
Interviewer
And like what was the first products that your father created? Like back in the early days.
- [06:12]
Claudio Morenzi
The first product was the rain. The rainwear. The rainwear. So the raincoats. Everything about a function.
- [06:20]
Interviewer
And like I read that he used a certain kind of material or a certain kind of treatment at the time that kind of made them special. Is that true?
- [06:27]
Claudio Morenzi
Yes, at the time it was quite normal. They used the resin oil just to dash on the cotton. So to make the cotton rainproof, we use the. The racing oil. That in our area was quite. It was a lot of this material. Yeah.
- [06:51]
Interviewer
And like, so when you were a child and. And you were growing up in this family where their company and the family are kind of one and the same. And you mentioned it comes from the spirit of competition and from sports and things like that and from active, you know, active, active things like was it a competitive household? Were you like competitive with your brothers? Or was it a very kind of spirit of competition? A lot. Okay, tell me about that.
- [07:16]
Claudio Morenzi
We are three brothers. Three, three boys. You know, we compete in sport, we compete at school, we compete, let's say in. In every, every kind of life. Of course, when we work together in the company was different. We compete together against the market in some way. So we are focused on it.
- [07:44]
Interviewer
And so when did you first join the company officially? Did you start working right away in the company once you end your studies.
- [07:52]
Dan Rubenstein
And things like that?
- [07:54]
Claudio Morenzi
I finished my studies, I even not finish the university because I make philosophy in Milan and my father was not so, let's say happy about that. So he said if you want to read the books, you can even work. So the second I do, you know, my university making a special course for pattern makers. So I become a pattern makers expert in operation and after a couple of years I start working. So let's say that after two, two years and a half, I. I dropped the university. I started working. It was 85. I make my military service because at the time it was compulsory. So I started working officially in 80, 85.
- [08:51]
Interviewer
What was your first job? What do they. What did their first job did they give you in 85?
- [08:55]
Claudio Morenzi
My first job was about operation. So I make. I look for the procedure in the production and I introduce in the company a computerized cutting and what.
- [09:17]
Interviewer
Tell me a little bit about, you know, in the 80s in Italy, in the mid-80s, we're talking about here or the late 80s, you know, what was the fashion world like? What was the industry like that you were in back then?
- [09:30]
Claudio Morenzi
You know, in the 80s, it was the period where the big brand, the big Italian brand, let's say, move to the real fashion, the world of real fashion. And coming from two different. The way or design. So Versace, Armani, Moschino Ferre, or from the accessories. So from Prada, Gucci and whatever. So there was keen on the accessories, but not in garment and manufacture. So this was the reason because they looking for company. They have a manufacture inside quality and quantity. So this we start at the end of the 80s. We start working more for the other brand than Herno. At the time in the 80s, the, you know, everything was so positive. Everybody, I mean, we talk really the 80s in Italy was very nice, very exciting drizzling. And this was the period we live in a credible atmosphere for the future. Been even of course, even some. Some fragile. Some fragile experience. Because anyway, the fashion was more keen on aesthetic and marketing innovation much more than the manufacture. So this was probably the theatre that was quite negative. I always focus my. My idea of fashion more as a manufacturer than only fashion.
- [11:28]
Interviewer
And back then in the 80s, when you were maybe producing clothing for other brands, as you mentioned, did that impact the company because you were able to learn from the system and from the world of Milan and Rome and things like that. To go beyond the early beginnings of being, you know, about raincoats and functionality.
- [11:51]
Claudio Morenzi
Let's say that affect the company because the company move more as a manufacturer than a brand. So the brand later. So in the 90s, in the beginning of 2000, became weaker in term of brand recognition. On the other side, the company improve a lot, let's say to understand better the balance between the fashion and the manufacture. So we learn for me, especially for me really for myself was very important because I built up my idea of fashion that then later on from the 2005 I put on the market, you know, meaning they all the big designers, Gill Sander, Tom Ford, Marc Jacobs. Within 97, they built out my idea of fashion. On the other side, it was my origin from the manufacturing, the technical, the functionality. So I put together. This is what's in a way is this is my background that I put on the market from 2005.
- [13:20]
Interviewer
And obviously how do you feel that you. This sort of. You have this background of being sort of like, you know, a company about functionality and design and manufacturing.
- [13:31]
Dan Rubenstein
How.
- [13:32]
Interviewer
How do you think today that kind of differentiates you from. From some of the other your, you know, your fellow Italian brands and so on.
- [13:41]
Claudio Morenzi
You know, what I. What I did from 2005 when I remained alone, almost without my brothers. And just as having my. Yes, my father has a president just for guarantee the family. I start to make a balance between the aesthetic and the manufacturer. So between marketing and the perception of quality. So the value for money. This was really important for me because you know, let's say that, you know, I started really the assertorial engineering fashion and because I really felt deeply manufactured. So let's say that this was my way at that time. Was very innovative. Now let's say that many, many brands follow us. I mean they are saying to follow meaning the functional and the fashion and the manufacturer is, you know, the, the main, the mainstream of many brands. We started really because we coming from the manufacturer, it was my, at the beginning was my only strength. We were manufacturers, so we really makes what we are, even to design.
- [15:13]
Dan Rubenstein
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- [16:33]
Interviewer
And so when you first sort of took over in around 2005 and you were kind of alone, right? You were kind of essentially at the head of the company, more or less like, what was the vision like? What did you, what was your dream like? What did you want or know to become?
- [16:48]
Claudio Morenzi
The dream was of course to increase the brand recognition of the company. The brand, sorry. The task was how. Because in 2005, if you remember, I mean, the market was quite full as today. The market is space. It seems not to have a space. This was even the thoughts of my brother. This is because they don't want, they didn't agree with me in these ambitions. So I started from, you know, thoughts. We are. Our DNA is the raincoats. Okay? The raincoats are, is a functionality garment because you have to save from the rain. So in some way we can say that we are a function company A functional fashion company. So if you are functional brand, let's say in our tasks it's important to increase the performance of what we are making the function. So we are a performance company, but if we have a performance company, we can perform to even other kind of items. Coats, double face and down. So I started to let's say to put big heifer in the R and D. So research and development. We start first in 2008. Direct injection of the down in. In the court. We start in 2010 for the first time making a collection, a fashion collection with Goretex fabrics. So a kind of hyper performance items for fashion and for urban use. So let's say that everything was about fashion on one side and function on the other. And in this, in this way we make our own path through the fashion. And little by little we take. We. We. We say we open our space.
- [19:19]
Dan Rubenstein
And in those early days when you were investing in all this new R.
- [19:22]
Interviewer
And D and things like that, was there. Was there a product or something that was an early success that you thought ah, okay, this is working. I'm doing the right thing?
- [19:30]
Claudio Morenzi
Yeah, many we are.
- [19:33]
Interviewer
What's your favorite?
- [19:36]
Claudio Morenzi
My favorite. It was one very nice. We have a succeed for quite years. It was a very. It was even funny we call a zip out and was at items that you have the zip that in some way you have a zipper you. You can open not without, you know the pulling, but just open like that because it's a special zip that you can. You can open that way without. Without, without of course break the zip. And this was very nice. It takes times to. To achieve the right results. But it was very. And because it was quite. Let's say it was a show. You know, I mean you open this, this, this jacket in just one side and we did it in 2012. So let's say that each. Not each season but each year we just move to this kind of items on the other side. In the last seven years going even to direct retail, we let's say we increase the typology of products. So we started as an outdoor jacket luxury outerwear. But then now we are making a global proposal with pants, knit shirt, dress, whatever. But with. With a must everything must be thoughts and industrialized in the company. We don't. We. Everything we are. We are putting on the market is in. Is design studies as a prototype and industrialized in the company. So everything's come for. For our entire procedure.
- [21:50]
Interviewer
So you're not outsourcing essentially?
- [21:52]
Claudio Morenzi
No, we are. So we, we of course we are using some outsource as a production directly controlled by us. But everything is, is done by, by directly control.
- [22:06]
Interviewer
And so in the beginning you said that your, your brothers didn't agree with you. What, what, what did they, what did they want? What did, they were there. What was their opinion? What was they, what did they disagree with?
- [22:16]
Claudio Morenzi
You know, the opinion, the opinion, the opinion was that anyway the market was, was packed, saturated, no space, so we, we were not so unique. And so it would be better stay as a manufacturer, stay. I mean, and keep going like that. You know, in some way they gave up, they, they gave up the competitive spirit. Yeah.
- [22:44]
Interviewer
And you know, you've served on, on many, you know, leadership positions and a lot of, you know, Italian industrial bodies like Pitti and Sistema Moda Italia. Like what, what have you learned from your time working with these groups about, you know, manufacturing today? Because you have a very privileged, you know, position. You have, you, you, you know things and you've seen things that you can, you know, share. Like what do, what do you, what have you learned from all that? Those time with those groups?
- [23:13]
Claudio Morenzi
Yeah, let's say that what I've seen is shifting the manufacturing to quality, traceability and sustainability, meaning that, you know, pass by just the aesthetic to this value that are very important because, you know, and I even saw that company and the quality could be not done by just one player, but it's very important all the supply chain.
- [23:54]
Interviewer
And so when you're dealing with all of these different companies in these groups, you know, what, what are their challenges to doing this?
- [24:03]
Claudio Morenzi
The challenges is to put all together and focus on just one direction and deal all together with, let's say with.
- [24:21]
Interviewer
The.
- [24:24]
Claudio Morenzi
Uno, European, the EU and then through all the other countries, meaning the rule that are placed now in, in Europe and done more mostly for the North Europe countries that are not so keen on manufacture. So they say that the real manufacture countries are Italy for sure, and on the other side, Germany. But the rule of Europe right now are more keen on commercial this. That means that the manufacturer are not. So they don't put value on the manufacture.
- [25:17]
Interviewer
Okay. So there's too much of a, there's too much of an asp. Of a focus on commerciality rather than on the manufacturing essentially. And so I know that the brand has, with, with her know, like, you know, has acquired some and spun off others and, and kind of changed. So what is your, your vision today for the future? Because now, you know, from the beginning we talked about your original vision in 2005 and so now today in 2025, has your. Has your vision changed? Because I'm sure a lot has. Has shifted and. And grown and your original vision has kind of come true in a sense.
- [25:58]
Claudio Morenzi
Yeah. Let's say that the most important task is keep going like that. No second way, no plan B go straight to our. To our path. Of course that means that anyway you have to say adapted to the market but still not make any kind of open to different ways. So manufacture control the manufacture. Asking ourselves when we make some new items, why we are doing not only in terms of aesthetic but even in terms of functionality and especially give always the best value for money starting from the manufacture. So when we study the product, of course when we study we study in term of fashion so aesthetic function, but then study a lot even about the. The procedure how to do it just to have. Achieve the best price for the best quality. This will be our. Let's say really our path and we have not to go away from that.
- [27:34]
Interviewer
So now into the future, is there any kind of avenue that you kind of want to explore now that you've kind of, you know, really kind of moved the brand into a new space over these years?
- [27:48]
Claudio Morenzi
Let's say that our expansion in the next years should be in a retail. Now the retail for US represents the 40% of our turnover. Should be right going at least to 60%. So going majority for retail just because it's not a question of margin but it's a question of to show our product in the right way. And of course you can do it just in your direct shop. So we have to move to that. Of course it's quite expensive expansion. But even as I said before even doing that we have to not to let's say to decrease our duty on. On R and D. So let's see, this is the task for the future, the near future. Balance our investment between let's say the brand recognition through direct retail to the other side. Moving in still moving in R and D.
- [29:23]
Interviewer
And putting business aside for a moment. I read that you have quite the contemporary art collection.
- [29:29]
Claudio Morenzi
Yeah.
- [29:30]
Interviewer
I heard that you bought your first piece of art when you were 15. Tell me. Yes, in the summer's cutting fabric from your.
- [29:37]
Claudio Morenzi
You're right. I mean with the first pocket money that my father gave me to me during the. During the summer I bought my first piece of art. I I make painting my bedroom doors from a local artist. So I have already. I still.
- [29:57]
Interviewer
You commissioned it?
- [29:58]
Claudio Morenzi
I commissioned. I commission. You know, they painted with nice subject. My. My door. I keep it the door. When I, when I left my family's house, I went out with the door. So this was my first. I always love art even because I always admire the artist that can make and they can talk with people and have a vision of the future through their hand. This is something that, you know, I haven't. So it's something that I always admire in the other. It started like that then, you know, I have a bit, a lot of passion energy about that now. This energy of course is mitigated with the discipline. But at the beginning was, you know, I was really full of energy for heart. I organized many events. I. I met all my generation artists not only from Italy. So it became kind of second job, let's say more. It's a business investment right now. But anyway, I always find the art kind of a view of the future. The art, the artists, the very big artists, the very nice artist is the artist that anyway they have over a view in advance.
- [31:48]
Dan Rubenstein
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- [32:56]
Interviewer
And the company opened its first flagship in the United States almost, I don't know, eight years ago or something in 2017. What has your experience been like with Americans? Like, have you felt, is there a difference? You mentioned you went to Japan and so I'm just wondering, like, how do you kind of think about the American consumer for Ernault versus like Italy or Tokyo or something like that.
- [33:21]
Claudio Morenzi
But you know, the American consumer very keen on quality and very fast. So everything in terms of, in engagement is about quality and the service. You cannot drop that. So it's very important, really very important. The, the service in, in some way the American are spoiled about that. You know, let's say all the logistics. So everything must be on time, must Be in the right, in, in the right. In the right moment.
- [34:04]
Interviewer
We're used to Amazon basically.
- [34:07]
Claudio Morenzi
Yeah. I mean they are very. So say that this was a great task for us but we were quite let's say aware of that because even Japan is like that Japan in terms of let's say aesthetic and I don't know if we can say peakness of quality is like Italian but for. Yeah there they are very, very focused on that. But they're even more very focused on the, on the service in my opinion is coming from the American side of them. And so you were quite accustomed to. So when we opened the first shop in the US we were quite aware of that. So anyway, the, the. The American and are a little bit more classic than European. They, they move fashion to another kind of fashion. So they are more, they are more royalty in a way.
- [35:27]
Interviewer
They're more loyal to their, to their brands basically.
- [35:30]
Claudio Morenzi
Yeah, yeah. But you cannot let's say make something wrong because how the loyalty if, if you are not. If they. If you spoil them then it's very difficult to. To make them come back.
- [35:50]
Interviewer
So as long as you, you. You maintain the level that they expect, they will be loyal to you essentially. Okay. Yeah.
- [35:57]
Claudio Morenzi
And this is we. We see especially in the second shop, in the second store that we open in Madison where there are many customers that are already wear Erno. Let's say that is more. Is a kind of Erno area. So in that area we have many loyalty customer and it's very, it's a very great experience. I met many of them when I pass by in New York and it is very useful because they even give us advice on product. So it's nice. Yeah.
- [36:43]
Interviewer
What kind of advice did the customers tell you about your.
- [36:46]
Claudio Morenzi
In terms of stability, for example, term of weight of the items because of the season. I remember a discussion, nice discussion with the customer advise us to say you should have more inter. Seasonal items because in New York we one day is very cold and the other day very warm. So you cannot just think about season. So it's nice they interacted with the brand. This is. That means the loyalty is quite important.
- [37:32]
Interviewer
I mean that's an interesting point you bring up because so much of your brand identity is things in coats and raincoats and things like. And these performance things. And obviously nowadays, I mean it was 80 degrees in New York the other day. And when we're recording this in middle of September, is global warming becoming an issue? Do people buying as many heavy coats and outerwear essentially? Because I kind of Feel like maybe people don't need it as much as they used to.
- [38:04]
Claudio Morenzi
Yeah, you are right. We are lighter our items and especially we are making a collection really a lot of transitional items. Not heavy, but they say medium heavy items in in the summer and light items in. In the evening in the winter. They say that more than we are not selling any more heavier items. Let's say that we are selling more different in a different way. Not there's not one season for heavy items and one season for light. You should be prepared selling all over the season different kind of weight.
- [39:04]
Interviewer
And obviously I wanted to ask you something that has been talked about for a long time and especially with your work with PT and these other groups is this concept of made in Italy, right It that that has evolved and changed and has many issues surrounding it. So today, now in the post pandemic moment, especially when there are a lot of issues about free trade and all sorts of things like what, what. What does made in Italy mean to you personally?
- [39:40]
Claudio Morenzi
You know, it's a very big question. First of all, we are making the. The 50% of our items in Italy and the 50% in East Europe. Okay. We have a company, a factories in Italy. Of course, it's our headquarter on the lake. But we a second one in Sicily. So in south where we have an induction of more or less 800 people. And then we have another company in Moldova. So in east Europe around 1,000 people. And we divide the manufacture through the value of the material. So the most important material, the value cashmere, cotton, silk, all the kind of wool or whatever in Italy. And the man made material, nylon, polyamide or whatever in East Europe just to balance the value of the manufacture and the value of the material just to achieve as I told you before, the most right value for money. About that, in my opinion there is an answer meaning to do that we strengthen the extraordinary quality of the made in Italy. So we have to make in Italy the most worth items. Because it's a question of. Is not only a question of know how is a question of passion and love. In Italy we have that passion. We love to serve other people. We love to. To make people. Wow. You know, I mean, wow. They were making the best. You know, this is happening even in, you know, in the food, whatever. So we love to make people, you know, make a great experience. And this is something that you can feel in the. In the Italian manufacture when we want to just to make just items with the made in Italy, we make a mistake. We have to make In Italy only that items that people, you know, stay astonished in some way. So we have to. To focus on the high quality. We have to focus on the best items that we can do and leave it to. To other country, the more industrial one. Sometimes happen that this is not so clear. People wants. People the brands wants just the Made in Italy. And this way we make some mistake. But they say the system, you know, in. In Italy for. In the fashion are involved more or less 7. 700. 700,000 people and more or less 10,000. 10,000 company. This just for the manufacturer. So for us it's quite big area. And there is of course there is something that is not meant to in with the 700,000 people. Some wrong procedure could be happen. Could happen.
- [43:57]
Interviewer
Sure. Right. Some people are abusing the system.
- [43:59]
Claudio Morenzi
Essentially they're abusing the system. Okay. This happens. So it's happened sometimes comes out and then everybody in the world they think that this is the. The. Let's say just the situation. But it's not like that. It's just an exception. But really we should think about makes in Italy only the most beautiful items to do that we cannot make any kind of mistake.
- [44:31]
Interviewer
It's sort of. It reminds me about Apple and how they have this sort of design in California. You know, made in China, but designed in California or Cupertino, like where they're from. Is that kind of part of your thinking? It's really more about the soul of what made in Italy is, rather than a more purely technical vision of it.
- [44:53]
Claudio Morenzi
Is a part of meaning. For sure. Before I was talking about fashion. So garment of course there are some other distraction that they can make. Of course the design and the industrialization in Italy. Then they have to make the production in Asia, whatever. And of course you keep in your company just the idea. And this of course is a part of made in Italy. On the other side, yes, this is a part. The second part is the industrialization and the manufacturer. You can make a good product, very good product design study industrialize in Italy and make it in Asia. But still, when you have to make the right manufacture with the right material, Italy does better.
- [46:05]
Interviewer
And as the company specializes in activewear and things that are meant to be used. What kind of trends have you seen in your time in the company that tells us about how we spend our time?
- [46:19]
Claudio Morenzi
Think about luxury. Many people and myself, we thought luxury. The time. Time is luxury. So having the time for yourself, of course have the nice experience for each of us. So for us having a nice time, meaning making items that you make feel good in a different part of the life. Not only work, not only in the city, but even in private life. So this is always about even the functionality, you know, now there is a generation of 50 and 60 years people that they don't have the perception of the quality like their father. Meaning the possession is not on any more. Just the handmade buttonhole or the handmade jacket, sartorial, whatever. The perception of the quality is even the performance, because we are the generation of, you know, that makes part till the 60s, 70, whatever. We are using incredible material for any kind of sports. So the performance become a part of the perception of the quality. So this is because I'm so focused on the performance, because the performance became part of the quality of the perception of the quality. This because we are making, we are using our time in a different way. Not only to work, but even to stay with ourselves. Maybe in the woods, on the mountain. So we need to be more, let's say, safe in any case.
- [48:41]
Interviewer
And what's next for Ernaut?
- [48:44]
Claudio Morenzi
The next is keep going like that. And it's not an assumption, it's not so easy. Meaning keep going like that in a world that is, let's say, is quite unbalanced in some way and even changing our dimension. Meaning I started almost from 1 million. When I started in 2005, the turnover of Erno was less than 1 million. Now it's. It's going over 200 million. And you know, and keep going in the same vision is not easy because, you know, changing the needs change the dimension, change even, you know, the mentality. So the is big task is keep going in the same way, with the same enthusiasm, with the same will of, you know, keep going that.
- [49:58]
Interviewer
And have you thought about the next generation that might take over the company one day?
- [50:04]
Claudio Morenzi
The first generation? Yes, of course. I have two son to son, you know, sometimes it's. It's not, you know, first of all, I just say teach them that they keep going. The company is not only about metrics, but is about the value. And all our talking now is about value more than the metrics. But still it's very important. Not only the passion, but the experience.
- [50:49]
Dan Rubenstein
Thank you to my guest Claudio Morenzi, as well as to everyone at Herno and NPPR for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don't forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, Grand Tourist curator@thegrandtourist.net and follow me on Instagram danrubenstein and follow the Grand Tourist on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen and leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Ciao ciao.