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- [00:01]
Dan Rubenstein
Before we get started with today's episode, make sure you're getting the full grand tourist experience. And sign up for our newsletter, the Grand Tourist Curator on our website, thegrandtourist.net each week you'll get original content delivered right to your inbox from interviews with the most fascinating people to travel, advice from those in the know, and news on the latest exhibitions in art and design. And now back to the show.
- [00:29]
Massimo Bottura
When you feed people with emotions, the emotion stays forever. Good food is just good food. The next experience, you already forget about the one before. But when you feed people with emotions, that's your goal and it's gonna stay with them forever.
- [00:51]
Dan Rubenstein
Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life. And welcome to the finale of season 11. We'll be back after the holidays with more episodes and a few surprises. On today's episode, we're meeting one of the most respected and perhaps the most rock and roll chefs on the international scene today, Massimo. But the Italian impresario has been a force in the world of food for decades. He originally worked for his family in the petroleum business before switching to cooking. And to me you can truly tell he appreciates the humanistic cultural elements that surround the discipline of being a top tier chef in the 90s. After training under some of the biggest names in the business at the time, he opened his now famous Austria Francescana. And after an early struggle to gain respect in the business, which we'll get into, it became a massive success. Even today in 2024, it has three Michelin stars with a green star to boot. In 2019, Massimo took a huge leap and opened Casa Maria Luigia, a BB of sorts that's one of the toughest bookings around. He runs the Getaway that's in the countryside of Italy's Emilio Romano region, where he's from with his wife Lara Gilmore, whom he met in New York while he worked as a young chef. Casa Maria Luigia is also the center of his latest book that he wrote with his wife Laura. Slow fast cars out now from Phyton. Aside from being a celebrity in the cooking world, a philanthropist, restaurateur, he also runs his own label of aged balsamic called Villa Manodori, keeping alive a key Italian tradition. On top of it all, Massimo knows that being a famous chef isn't just about cooking. He Collects art that he infuses into his locales, is an avid music lover, car and motorcycle collector, and more. AI caught up with an exhausted Massimo after returning for cooking for the G7. Apparently, one of his guests, the Holy Father him, was quite impressed to chat about his new book, where he goes to escape all of the drama, his advice for young chefs, and what the key is to an amazing bottle of balsamic.
- [03:03]
Alex Kumbis
I'd love to just start at the beginning. For people that may not be familiar with your story, you were born in Modena, correct?
- [03:10]
Massimo Bottura
Yes, Yes, I was born in Modena and I grew up here, very close with my family, very large family. Brother, sister, aunt, grandmothers. And we had. Food was a very, very important part of our life because we have the brother of my grandmother, he had a very small cheese company, Parmigiano Reggiano Co. Up on the hills. And my grandmother, from my father's side, they own land close to the Po River. And so every once in a while, my father was coming back from the countryside with a car full of melon, watermelon, you know, chestnut, truffle, salami, prosciutto, you know, everything that the farmers that we're making for them, for us. So when you grow up in a family like this, food has the major influence, especially because at the table, you cannot. You were not allowed to talk about business, but we were talking about our passion. You know, fast cars, paintings, music, stuff like that. And growing up in a family like this, you know, very. I was the younger one, always very close to my mom. I was always in the kitchen, and I was always helping them to make whatever they had to make. And. And that's what probably brought me here 60 years later, here in Osseria Francescana.
- [04:58]
Alex Kumbis
And I read that you worked for your father and for your family before kind of getting into cooking. Tell me about that. What kind of business was he in?
- [05:06]
Massimo Bottura
Yeah, my father owns an important company, oil company, and he was very successful, actually. The company was founded by the mother of my mom. But he brought the company on another level. And as soon as he got success, you know, those were like those days, 50, 60. And my father was deciding also what my older brother had to do. So he was an engineer, the second one a doctor, third one an accountant. I had to be the lawyer of the family, you know, But I wasn't happy. I was good on study, but I wasn't happy studying to become a lawyer. And my mom, that she knew me better than anyone else, convinced my father to let me go and become A chef. This was the 80s. The chef at that time, they were like just those people. They didn't want to study and, okay, what are you going to do? You're going to be. I want to be in the kitchen. And once my mom convinced my father to let me go one week later, I bought a very small trattoria, 10 km from Modena, outside of Modena, where I was cooking, following the music that was already being written by other chefs. So tradition, you know, but buying the most amazing products. So I brought tradition. The French, they usually say en la ve. We brought to a different level tradition using the most amazing ingredient you could find. Then I met a French chef called Georges Cognier, that he was. He had two star Michelin. Two Michelin star in. In Piacenza. And he had a dinner in my place and he loved it. And he said, okay, I can help you to improve. So I was going up there and to learn the classic French cuisine. And what I was learning, I was learning technique that I transfer into the classic Italian traditional food. So it was very, very interesting, matching, you know, from there. I remember, you know, one autumn, Alain Ducasse arrived, you know, at that time, he just got the three Michelin star in Hotel de Paris at Louis, Cannes, and was very known for his farm to table. So imagine in France, he was getting, you know, vegetables directly from the market, getting into the pan, extra virgin olive oil, no butter, no cream, and serve these vegetables farm to table. They're contemporary now, you know. And he was extremely impressed. And he said, massimo, at the end of the meal, Massimo, if you want, you know, you can come to the Hotel de Paris and, you know, you can stay with me whenever you want and improve. This was October, and in January I left. I left everything and I went to the Hotel de Paris. And, you know, the things that immediately blew my mind was that he let me do whatever I want. So I was working 13, 14 hours a day, trying to learn as much as I could. And I was waking up very early in the morning to make bread, to make sourdough, and then moving to the chocolate room and learn how to work with chocolate breakfast, then the whole preparation for lunch. You know, I was everywhere. And that was an incredible, intense school. You know, like, I was extremely impressed by the obsession about quality. That was not just the quality of the ingredients, was the quality of. Of every single details. From the moment you were, like, fixing the table, talking with people, buying the ingredients, using technique, organization, getting down with Mr. Gereni, Monsieur Gereni, down in a wine Cellar and match all the cognac from 1880, 1890, you know, 1900, you know, it was like insane.
- [10:31]
Alex Kumbis
And at what point did you then move to New York briefly? Because I believe you met your wife there, correct?
- [10:36]
Massimo Bottura
Yes, yes, yes, I met my wife there. At one point there were like, the opportunity to move to New York because Sylvain Poitier needs some help. And, you know, he was the chef at Le Cirque at that time. And so I moved to New York. But Le Cirque was like too many covers, too much confusion, stress. And, you know, starting from the obsession about quality that we had at the Hotel de Paris and moving to New York and, you know, the quality wasn't the same. And so I decided to quit and live New York. That was like incredible, incredible time in New York because It was like 1992, 1993. And that was the moment in which all the movement of jazz, Mataz, the DJ mixing with the jazz musician, then all the new grunge generation. So all these Per Jam and Soul Asylum and Nirvana, the wallflowers, they were all there. So for me, music is another very, very important passion. And as food, as art. But at that time was. Art was to me, was over after Duchamp till I met my wife and she teach me how to look at contemporary art in a much deeper way. And that was something that really changed the perspective of my life. But the things that was like, meant to be was like, was the moment in which we met for the first time, because we both were. She was like acting at Worcester Theater in Worcester and Grand. And I was just leaving New York as a tourist and enjoy myself. And. And I saw I want to have. I was walking around Seoul, I saw a big ILI Cafe sign. Yeah, at that time was before Starbucks, before, you know, espresso was everywhere. And, you know, I said, oh, finally I can get a good espresso. So I walk into this place called Cafe Di Nona, beautiful, charming Italian restaurant in Seoul, grand and Mercer. And I asked for a coffee as I wanted, like macchiatone in a big cup with foamy milk, you know. And it took like 20 minutes to have that coffee. So I said, guys, you need some help? If you want, this is my number. I can help you. I went back home and in the answer machine there was this message. This is Reiko Santini. I am the man behind Cafe Di Nona. And if you want to come tomorrow, we will be very happy. So I said, let's try the same message, because Lara, thanks to one of the waiters that he was asking, he was acting with Lara at the Worcester Theater received the same message because they went the same the time, the same afternoon to look for a job. Because, you know, in New York is like this. Everyone is a writer, as an actor is like screaming, you know. But at the end, everyone does bartending and waiting table and stuff like that. So because they cover, they have to cover the expenses. And so Lara received the same message and we met at 2pm 8th of April 1993 in Cafedinona. The same schedule, actually. The first cappuccino behind the desk. She was behind the desk that I asked was her cappuccino. But I saw her that she wasn't able to make a cappuccino. Because, you know, cappuccino is a very difficult things to make in the right way. It's like pizza is exactly that. Everybody know, thinks they know how to make pizza or to make a cappuccino, but no one knows, right? So I said, listen, can I teach you how to make a cappuccino? So I show her like how to whip the milk without getting high in temperature and moving the milk foam, getting on top of the espresso and create the perfect foamy, you know, that was like drink in one sip. And. And that was the. My first moment with Lara behind the desk, behind the bar at Cafe di Nona.
- [16:08]
Alex Kumbis
And you know, so when you. You eventually you returned to Modena and you open your Osteria.
- [16:14]
Dan Rubenstein
Correct.
- [16:15]
Massimo Bottura
Late. Late in the. Even in the year they called me to. To go back to Modena because I had to take a decision about what I was doing with the old restaurant. But my brother also told me that was Osteria Francescana for sale, that we always loved it. And so first of all, I bought those three Francescana and then I sold the small restaurant there. And I start rethinking about what I had to do, how to evolve. And the 8th of March 1995, or not 19th of March 1995, we opened Osteria Francescana.
- [17:12]
Alex Kumbis
And what was that first year like in the restaurant? Like, if I could go back in time and join you for dinner.
- [17:17]
Massimo Bottura
The first year was like first, immediately, the second day we opened one of the most important journalists in the world, Mr. Wilsberger, the creator of Gourmet magazine, German guy, he came, he was so impressed that he dedicated 10 pages on gourmet about my food. The day after we were empty, you know, then all the Modenese, they start coming to understand what I was doing. Because the rumors was that we were serving very small portion and charged a lot of money. And, you know, it wasn't. So it was a little bit crazy. You know, I thought Osteria, after the success I had with Campazo di Nonantola, I said, oh, it's going to be easy. You know, it's going to be. And. But Osteria was empty because of those. The local food critics, they really want to have, you know, big plates of pasta and gnocc and traditional food. But, you know, I was too influenced by what I've learned in Ducasse with George. And my cuisine was already on another level. So it was struggling for six years. 95 till end of 2000.
- [19:06]
Alex Kumbis
What changed?
- [19:09]
Massimo Bottura
It was like, apart for, like, few amazing food critics that still are coming to Osteria Francescana, like Andrea Grignafini, Andrea Petrini, Luigi Cremona, few Americans, Annie von Brisman, Faith Willinger. And they were writing about us because they were saying, I can't believe this restaurant is empty. Like, the food is amazing. You know why? And one night in April, April 2000, there was a car accident in A1 the highway close to Modena. The pass through Modena. And we received a phone call from Mr. Visu, actually his name was Enso Visery. And he arrived and he showed up late in the evening because he was like stuck in the traffic. And at the end of the dinner, he said, this was like one of the most amazing dinner you're going to read on the magazine Friday when it's going to come out. It's the most important magazine in Italy. Espresso. So the whole article was about. Sorry, I'm sorry, sorry for my readers, sorry for the restaurant, because I didn't come earlier because this was like, at the end of the year, we won Dinner of the Year, Young Chef of the Year, and the first Michelin star. So everything changed. And that was very. But those days in the 90s, they were extremely, extremely tough. And when we were shooting. What's the name of the Netflix show, Chef's Table, we were shooting Chef's Table. Immediately. The director said to me, we want to talk about. We need to talk about the struggle in time before getting successful. And because every single young chef who's struggling, you have to learn and believe in him yourself and keep, you know, evolving, keep fighting for your ideas. You know, that's a very important. That was a very important message then.
- [21:56]
Alex Kumbis
Those first years, the first six years that you struggled with the. Was the food similar to what you would serve today?
- [22:02]
Massimo Bottura
Absolutely. All the plates that we were serving were the same plates that now are in Casa Maria Luigia, the Osteria Francescana iconic dishes menu. So the five different age parmigiano, the walking around the Po river, the beautiful psychedelic spin painting veal ice cream bar of foie gras with hazelnut and almond, almond from noto, hazelnut from Piemonte, balsamic vinegar in the heart. All these dishes, they're like extremely iconic now. They were too avant garde at that time. Actually, in 93, when I created for the first time the five different age Parmigiano in five different texture and temperature, I received the first phone call from the consortium of Parmigiano Reggiano, from the president himself, saying, please, senor Bottura, stop cooking that dish because you ruined the image of Parmigiano Reggiano. You know why? Oh my God, why 20 years later? Because in Moderna, they were all talking about that dish. And to me, it was like just amazing to pick one ingredient and show the slowly aging process in Emilia Romagna. And I pick parmigiano. I could pick balsamic vinegar or prosciutto culatello. But you know, 20 years later, for the 150th anniversary of Italian cuisine, there was a book and came out a book and five different age parmigiano was the plate of the decade. And I received a second phone call from the consortium, from another director saying, maestro, you know, Maestro, Maestro, Maestro is Pavarotti. I said, but yes, you can use the image of the five different of the dish for your website.
- [24:02]
Dan Rubenstein
Before I return to the program, a word from our sponsor, Lumens. As a design editor and magazine veteran for decades, I can remember keeping so many where to buy lighting, where to buy great furniture, rugs, accessories, pillows, vases, you name it. Just keeping track of where to get access to the best design houses online was a job unto itself. But today, homeowners and designers have access to lumens.com, a source for more than 400 global brands all in one place. What started as an insider's go to source for lighting has emerged as an encyclopedic powerhouse of good Design, celebrating its 20th anniversary, offering nearly everything an architect, designer or aficionado could require. From iconic names like B and B Italia and Floss to Carl Hansen and Nani Marquina. Our guest today, Massimo Bottura, is known for his love of art, motorcycles and so much more than just food and wine in the kitchen. Every design driven home will need a set of retro looking mugs Bowls and plates from the American company Heller, whimsical food containers for cookies, and more from Alessi and Cartel, and even great examples of photography and wall art for just about any space. So take some advice from the grand tourist and think about design from a more cultural, holistic perspective. And shop@lumens.com for all facets of a truly well lived life. That's L U m e n s.com.
- [25:27]
Alex Kumbis
Tell me about Casamari Luigia. How. How did that begin? How did. Why, Why? I mean, it's. It's a. It's a major undertaking. You know, if you were to say, I'm going to do this in the future, I would say, wow, that's a really big job to, you know, hospitality and the grounds. And not just a restaurant in a city, why do it?
- [25:50]
Massimo Bottura
The one of the most important people in Modena, the CEO of Ferrari at that time, Sergio Marchione, was keep pushing me to do something at the same level of Osteria Francescana in hospitality, because a lot of our guests, they were leaving Modena after the experience in Francescana and I didn't know what to do because. But I'll always leave the door open for the unexpected. And for me, the unexpected was to find a beautiful property in the right place that was unexpected because was confiscated by the court. And so I went there with Sergio to check the property, but the property was closed. So he said, no problem, it's very private. 5 minutes Modena South, 25 minutes from Maranello and the airport in Bologna. It's private, Buy it. I did it. I put an offer very low for what I could. And two years later I was in New York with Aziz Ansari, you know, doing like the party for the second season of Master of None. I received a message from the court here in Modena saying, the bank accept your offer and the property is yours. Oh, my God. No, no, no, no. That was a nightmare. That was a very strange. I had a very strange reaction. I was there with Lara and Lara, who was this guy, you know, I said, lara, we had Casa Maria Luigia, we have like the properties there, you know. And I said, okay, let's do it. Come on, let's do it. And we start with the garden, because the property was built on top of a source of water. So this incredible park, 250 years old, was absolutely perfect, overgrown. So we had to clean it and rebuilt it, reshape it as we wanted. Then we started restoring the carriage space and create a space for events. But as soon as in Osteria Francescana. We have a waiting list of 232,000 males and people there where they are waiting to come and experience Osteria Francescana's meal. I said, why don't we create this amazing space and give a different experience to all our guests. Move all the iconic dishes from the classic here in Via Stella, the classic restaurant, but in a very unusual contest. And we created the Osteria experience, as in our refetorio. And we broke the wall, we opened the kitchen and every night we cook in front of all our guests there. We invite to share tables and be part of the show. And we go. It's like going on stage, it's like being a theater. And so since then I didn't know what to expect. But since then we are fully booked and the guests are coming from all over the world. They want to share this experience. And most of the time they do one day in Modena, in Casa Maria Luigia for dinner and the iconic dishes. And the other day they try contemporary food at those three Francescana. So this is how everything starts. Actually, Actually, you know, just one month ago, we are the only established that we have. We have been prized with seven Michelin stars, three red plus one green Sustainability in Via Stella, three red in Casa Maria Luisa.
- [30:34]
Alex Kumbis
Amazing. And how do you. And your wife also works with you and sort of runs everywhere.
- [30:41]
Massimo Bottura
Yeah, she's very good on communication. So she's like. She's the one who conceptualize everything we do in our restaurants.
- [30:52]
Alex Kumbis
And I would love to talk about the book Slow Food, Fast Cars. How did the idea for this book come about?
- [31:02]
Massimo Bottura
So the idea of the book, 24 years ago, 25 years ago, there was a big. The first, probably the first event about the fast cars, the Motor Valley. So where the Reggione Emilia Romagna, the city of Modena, and the Maserati, Lamborghini, Ducati, Pagani and Ferrari all together, because all these companies are in 35 kilometers, so it's like 20 miles. At that time, I gave an interview talking about the dinner, the opening dinner. And I was using all the ingredients, classic dop, protected from Emilia. So parmigiano, aceto, balsamico, prosciutto, mortadella, all the. A dessert with pear cacio and pear cheese and pear. And when I had to explain in front of everyone, I said, what is Emilia Romagna? I don't know why I did that, but what is Emilia Romagna? Emilia Romagna is the land of slow food and fast cars, you know, and since then, I love that idea. And everyone in the modern valley decided to use that expression and became an icon. When you had to talk about Emilia, it's very easy. It's the land of slow food and fast cars.
- [33:02]
Alex Kumbis
Amazing. And so you have a car collection, Correct.
- [33:06]
Massimo Bottura
This.
- [33:06]
Alex Kumbis
I've seen pictures.
- [33:09]
Massimo Bottura
No, it's easy because, you know, with all these companies in the back, they understood immediately the value of Casa Maria Luigia, as Sergio Marchione did in the beginning. So they helped me to put together a group of cars that stay there as a permanent collection. And they switch it, of course. But it's just incredible, the reaction of all our guests when they come to Casa Maria Luigi. They go to this playground, enormous playground, to get fit, to work out with the gym, et cetera. You have enormous painting all around and all these Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini, you know, they create for us, you know, the company they create for us and unique in the world. And they are there to decorate, to show. And you have no idea how many guests they're coming to Casa Marie Luigi. At the end they left and they. I would love this, I would love that. I, you know, because there are cars from. For anyone, you know, like, there's also the Lancia Delta, the 500 Fiat, there's a. But beautiful, beautiful, like Fiat 500 Riva. So like the motorboat, so all wood inside. The classic blue Riva with the super elegant. So you. You see all these different approach from 500 to the most expensive Ferrari of all.
- [35:00]
Alex Kumbis
And also some motorbikes too.
- [35:03]
Massimo Bottura
Yeah, of course, because Ducati is, you know, if you ask me, what I really like to do when I'm down and out, is like putting my helmet disappear inside my helmet, get my Ducati and go up on the Apennine, south of Modena and drive, you know, up there and enjoy the ride. This is the way I clean my mind.
- [35:36]
Alex Kumbis
And what have you learned from. From running Casa Maria Luigia?
- [35:41]
Dan Rubenstein
Like what?
- [35:41]
Alex Kumbis
Like, because it is a sort of new sort of hospitality adventure. Like after these years, like how. What have you learned from. From this experience?
- [35:49]
Massimo Bottura
First of all, the difficult to, as you said before, the difficult to manage in a best way, the experience that is not those two, three hours, but 24 hours, that's very difficult. But the format that we create, because, you know, I'm not happy to do what everyone else does, I always go to the opposite side. And what I did, I said to Lara, reflect what we are missing the most when we are traveling everywhere. We are missing home. And that's why we call Casa home. It's not an hotel. It's not luxury. It's not the bed and breakfast. It's not. It's home. So we want to treat everyone like home, like it was their home. And Maria Luisa is my mom. My mom was Maria Luisa. We name it under my mom because my mom, she was an amazing, amazing ghost. She's like, always had the refrigerator full for all the friends, the friends of the friends, girlfriends and whatever. The door of the house was always open for the unexpected guest. There was always a chair that was free. And my brothers, they rename our home Hotel California. So that's what we want. And we said, okay, so these are oma. They have to reflect the place where we are, because every single guest, they have to understand they are in Modena. So on the counter of the kitchen, there's some cheese and Lambrusco for snack in the middle of the afternoon or like after breakfast, the refrigerator is always open, full of amazing things that our chefs, they're preparing during the day. There's a spirit room for your gin tonic before dinner, or grappa at the end of the dinner. There's a beautiful music room, as I have home to decompress with 8,000 vinyls. And in every room there's a coffee machine, because as I do when I travel, I want to have my coffee before talking with people. So that's a very important. Those are very important steps. And all that is free. So I don't want to sign any documents, to me is free. So whatever water you want to need, San Pellegrino or whatever, Arancia, Lambrusco, Parmigiano, everything is free because it's your own. That's how we did it. And the experience, you go into the kitchen and you make your own espresso at 5 in the afternoon. And no one is asking to sign anything. So that's why we recreate the OMI experience in a very upscale restoration of an old villa in Modena. The countryside and the power of hospitality. So this is the secret of our success. And if you think that the guide Michelin that you know is the most serious guide in the world, they prize us with three Michelin stars. Actually, they call keys because they don't care about the multinational of hospitality. They care about the experience. And that was the experience that we won every one of our guests that.
- [40:21]
Dan Rubenstein
Have before a return to Masa Mo Butora. A word from our sponsor, Janus ac. In the world of design, an appreciation of the outdoors is more important in our lives than ever before. Enter Janus AC. As a leader in outdoor furniture for more than 45 years, Janus AC provides unparalleled levels of craft and engineering to create works by the world's best design designers and architects, from Philippe Stark and Paolo Navone to Patrizia Urchiola. But beyond the incredible products and designs, Janus AC provides a level of service and expertise that's always best in class. Janus AC's journey began in 1978 in vibrant West Hollywood and has since led to a stunning expansion and the opening of award winning showrooms around the world. 2024 brings new flagships to Bethesda, Maryland and London. Continuing its commitment to quality and design, Janus AC is renowned for their commitment to outstanding materiality, including elements that are environmentally friendly as well as extremely durable. This approach has earned the company more than 150 juried product design awards, including multiple red dot and good design honors. To transform your outdoor space with incredible designs from Janus ac, make an appointment at your local Janus AC showroom or visit Janus ac. That's J A N U S E t c I e.com.
- [41:43]
Alex Kumbis
And you've always had a. I mean right behind you you have this beautiful painting. You've always had a connection with the art world. And I'm wondering, you mentioned it a little bit before, how did that passion for art begin?
- [41:54]
Massimo Bottura
The passion for art starts when I was a kid because my mom she was very into modern art, classic music, especially opera. Because this is the place for. That's why all our tasty menu are like operas. So you have you, we open with an over tour. Then you have the adagio very mild. Then you have increscendo, the allegro, then the minueto. Up, up, up, up. Minueto and then the grand finale. So because my mom teach me how to listen the opera. But art was like for my mom and my father more my mom was all about 19th century paintings, local paintings. So very countryside, the city, development of the city, the first tram, the first, you know, those kind of painting. Local painters there were not without any value till I met one of the most important galleries and one of the most important people in my life. That's Emilio Mazzoli. He's the owner of a very, very important contemporary gallery and that he really teach me deeply the concept behind the creative process behind contemporary art and between Lara that it was like showing me the historic steps from the abstract American painters till the British revolution. You know, Damien Hirst, Tracy Emin, Jake and Dinos Chaplin. You know, in the middle everything like Between Warhol and, you know, and all the others, it was like a revelation for me. And since the beginning, I started buying what I could buy because I'm not born a millionaire. So I had to buy the right pieces. It teach me how to buy the rice, the right pieces that I could, you know, afford. But in the moment you could afford, it was like, please stay close to your generations, so don't go deep in the past, because you cannot buy the masterpieces of the past. So stay focused on your generation. And you see, one day you're gonna have a lot of satisfaction. So I was listening and I started doing that. Even when I didn't have space for these enormous paintings. I was using Emilio Mazzoli storage to leave the painting there. And, you know, you stay there, we take care of you one day.
- [45:12]
Alex Kumbis
Who are some of the people you were collecting from your generation from the.
- [45:16]
Massimo Bottura
Beginning of the 80s? Robert Longo, Cindy Sherman, Julian Schnabel, Philip Taft, Ross Blackner, you know, the old Transavanguardi. Italian, Trans Avanguardia. Cookie Clemente, Palladino, Demaria Sandro Kia. All painters, artists. They're like. They were living in New York at that time. They were like the East Village generation, you know, Christopher Wall, you know, David Sal, you know, that kind of stuff, you know.
- [45:53]
Alex Kumbis
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so you're. You can pick them really well then.
- [45:58]
Massimo Bottura
Yeah, it was like, very, very good.
- [46:01]
Dan Rubenstein
Wow.
- [46:01]
Massimo Bottura
You know, you can. If you come to Maria Luigi, you see masterpieces of the right ears. You know, for those people. There's a. There's a Peter ailly incredible, like 5 meters long by 3 meters high called Somewhere. That was one of the most published Peter Rayleigh of all time. There's a 1982 Schnabel that he was doing, like the Portrait of Jean Michel Basquiat at the Venice Biennial. No one won it because was too big. I said, okay, I'm gonna buy it and leave it there. So he stayed there for like more than 10 years. And when. Even more. And when, you know, we did Casa Maria Luigi and the new playground, we had enormous walls to be able to show all these paintings. So we decided to share with all our guests. If you come to Cabo San Maria Luigi, it's like you're gonna be mind blown, you know, because they say, oh my God, where these painting comes from. Yeah, they come from a collection of 40 years that we were like, you know, putting together. And. And now we can share with all our guests.
- [47:26]
Alex Kumbis
And I saw in a photo shoot at Casamaria that you had a tattoo that says no more excuses. And I was wondering, are you prone to make. Yes, on your shoulder, are you prone to making excuses and that's why you needed it? Or where did that idea come from?
- [47:44]
Massimo Bottura
No, that was like, okay, you know that we have a lot of social projects. We talk about tortellante, but we also have food for soul. That is a project which we try. The focus is fighting food waste and social isolation through beauty. And in the first, we call these places refetorio, as Leonardo da Vinci was doing did 500 years ago. Refetorio is from the word refiture, to restore. Restore the soul of the guests. They are coming into your place as the restaurant, you know. So in the refetorio in Milan, during the Universal Exposition, we decide to involve. To create beauty. Architects, designer and artists, they like. They create incredible pieces to share with everyone. And one of the pieces was a neon. Is a neon, because it's still there, 22 meters long, in which, in Helvetica, Mauricio Nannucci wrote no more excuses. And that was like. To me, was like genius. Because when you talk about food waste, social isolation, and during the Universal Exposition, in which the theme was Feed the Planet, there are no excuses. You waste 33% of what you produce. No excuses. You're going to share with the people in need. So this is the idea. And then this was in the beginning, was like the beginning of a Universal Exposition was June, in December. I thought everything was over. We left the key of our refutorial to the volunteers and the Caritas Ambrosiana, they were running there every day. But I received a phone call from the mayor of Rio de Janeiro, thanks to also Alessandra Forbes, a journalist, and David Hertz activist in Brazil. They want to do another project, another refutorio in Rio de Janeiro during the Olympics. So we did it. We raised enough money, we restored and we open during the Olympics. When I arrived there, like one week before the whole opening, all these volunteers, actually, they didn't know, you know, imagine coming from Modena, three Michelin star focus, all about quality, organization, etc. Arrived in Rio de Janeiro working with volunteers. So it's like, oh, my God. I was like starting, you know, to teach them how to taste, how to work, how to not waste bananas, tomatoes, all the fruit and vegetables they were, you know, rescue from destroying. And at one point, one morning, I realized I was always too strong, too aggressive with these volunteers. So I said to my daughter Alexa, let's take a walk, I have to decompress so we took a walk around Rio. We arrived at at Copacabana and we turned around the Hotel Copacabana palace and we found this tattoo place. And I said, you know what? I have to change something, I have to do something. I want to go inside and tattoo no more excuses because I'm going to. I never gonna forget in the morning when I take a shower, you know, that looking at my harm that I don't have to use excuses for anything. If I cannot teach the volunteers, it's my fault, not their fault. So I tattoo no more excuses. And he's with me since then.
- [52:46]
Alex Kumbis
Wow, amazing. And of course I have to ask you also about your vinyl collection because it seems like you not only collect art and not only collect cars and motorcycles, but a lot of vinyl. And you mentioned music earlier. So what is your sort of go to if you want to just relax? What are you going to listen to from your class?
- [53:08]
Massimo Bottura
You know, in Casa Maria Luigia there's the old vinyl collection from my mom. So all the classic and opera, but also lots of jazz. Lots of jazz.
- [53:25]
Dan Rubenstein
You like jazz?
- [53:26]
Massimo Bottura
Yeah, I love jazz because you know, my older brothers, they grew, they grew up. The older one was pro Beatles, the second one was pro Rolling Stones. They were fighting like 24 hours a day. And you know, the third brother that was in the middle between the two older and me and my sister was like crazy about country and blues, I don't know why. In Italy at that time, you know, and he was importing country and blues from United States vinyl. And I was very close with Paolo, actually was the one who suggest me to buy Osteria Francescana when I was living in New York. And Paolo introduced me to the blues. They're serious blues like Lightning Hopkins, Muddy Waters, John Lecher, Screaming J. Hawkins. And then step by step between blues and jazz. The step is very short, you know, you listen to Billy Ollie, then you don't know what it is. You know, it's blues or jazz. And then, you know, I started listening to these blues men connected with the jazz players of the same era, then getting back to the classics and the. I start like this. And once you start listening to jazz, you know, you can't step back and going back to where it was. But I personally love music in general, you know, starting from Bob Dylan till Michael Stipe. But also. But jazz is my favorite. Like when you listen to Thelanius Monk or you know, whatever, you know, it's just insane.
- [55:33]
Alex Kumbis
And you also age your own balsamic. Correct. And Episcotta Villo Madori. Can you. How did that, how did that happen? And why go through all of that to recipe?
- [55:45]
Massimo Bottura
Villa Menodori is the name of the house where my sister lives and was where I kept all my barrels before moving to Casa Maria Luigi. And is the name of our company that probably saved Osteria Francescana. Because I created this company in 95 when I opened Osteria Francescana. And Vila Manoari was the reason because I could pay the bills at the end of the month selling balsamic vinegar. And that was since when we were kids, me and my sister, we were like very close to my grandmother. And we were always working upstairs in our home because she was the only one who had the keys upstairs where we were keeping the barrels. And I start, you know, getting all the barrels from the batteries, the group of barrels to my sister house and buying new barrels to large the products and the production. And actually step by step, one step at the time, we grow in quantity and quality and we become very successful. Especially Germany, usa, Holland, all Europe and US. And that's how I could pay the bills. And at the moment I bought out the people in Casa Maria Luigi. The third or fourth step to restore Casa Maria Louisa was the acetaia. I put together all the batteries from Villa Manodori and the one that I found in the old villa. One barrel at a time, we restore and we recreate the feeling of the balsamic vinegar. Actually we are the only vinegar place with two gold medal in the competition of balsamic vinegar.
- [58:24]
Alex Kumbis
What makes good balsamic vinegar. How do you. Especially to an American, it's all the.
- [58:29]
Massimo Bottura
Same time and love. Time and love. Time and love. Focus, focus, focus. The, you know, the more it's not. But it's not about, you know, the age, how much, how old it is. No, it's not about that, how good it is. We have Balsamico from 1908 that needs at least 10 years before coming back and be amazing. We have a 40 years old Balsamico that is like to die for. It's like incredible. So deep and intense and balanced. And the acidity is like touch, you know, in the perfect way. So that was the moment in which I said, okay, let's do it at this point, let's put together everything together and organize and keep tradition alive. As I did with breakfast at Casa Maria Luigi. The breakfast Casa Maria Luigi is becoming mythic. There are modernist people like two friends to girlfriends. They were like they live in Modena. They made a reservation Saturday night. To wake up Sunday morning and have breakfast at Casa Maria Luigi.
- [60:02]
Alex Kumbis
Well, what's the breakfast? What is the breakfast?
- [60:04]
Massimo Bottura
Breakfast is the same breakfast that my grandmother was preparing Christmas Day. I said to our chef, Jessica, she's a Canadian, she managed the fire very well. You know, my grandmother, I explained, my grandmother was. She wasn't a great cook because she didn't love to cook, but she had to cook. My mom, she was an amazing cook because she loved to cook. But Christmas Day, she was incredible because she was waking up very early in the morning and she was preparing breakfast for the whole family. And breakfast was incredible. So I would love to have all our guests to experience Christmas Day every day in Casa Maria Luigia. And so they're all super classic flavors from Modena as the fried dough with mortadella with the fresh daily ricotta, touch of balsamic vinegar, the cotechino sausage. Cook under the ashes in the wood burn oven with zabaione and the almond cake called sprizolona or the frittatina. Everything is cooked in a wood burn oven. So the smokiness, the flavor, the intensity is like, it's incredible. Incredible.
- [61:33]
Alex Kumbis
And I'd love to ask you a question. I ask a lot of the my chef guests. If you had to plan a dinner for your family at the last minute on a Sunday afternoon, what would you, for an early dinner, what would be on the menu.
- [61:49]
Massimo Bottura
For the family? For sure, I would serve something traditional because family and Sunday family, it's all about emotions. And when you feed people with emotions, the emotion stays forever. Good food is just good food. You know, the next experience, you already forget about the one before. But when you feed people with emotions, that's your goal and it's going to stay with them forever. That's what it is. And to me, there's nothing more emotional that those traditional flavor that I share with everyone, like the crunchy part of the lasagna. So we were fighting over that crunchy part, me and my older brothers. So, you know, I know what I'm talking about, you know, as breakfast, you know, as the breakfast in Casa Maria Luiza. That's a unique breakfast in the world. Because if you want to serve that breakfast and you want to copy that breakfast, it's just a copy. It's not because it's my breakfast when I was a kid. So those kind of flavors, I think they're going to be like the one that I would serve to my family.
- [63:13]
Alex Kumbis
If you had to describe your philosophy on life in three words, what would you say those words might be.
- [63:19]
Massimo Bottura
I would say what I do every day I compress my passion into edible bites. Sitting on centuries of history filtered by a contemporary mind is what I do because everything is very Italian and so is heritage. My passions are like music, art, poetry, fast cars, motorcycle. So everything is like stimulate my mind, but in a very critical way, never in a nostalgic one. If I am critic on those things, I get the best from the past into the future.
- [64:00]
Alex Kumbis
And if a young chef comes to you and says stops you somewhere briefly and says I love a piece of advice from you, what do you give? A piece of advice do you give young chefs?
- [64:11]
Massimo Bottura
I would say travel as much as you can, keep study as much as you can because culture is the most important ingredients for the chef of the future. And travel with your eyes and your ears open to absorb different culture. But never forget who you are and where you come from.
- [64:41]
Dan Rubenstein
Thank you to my guest Masa Boutora, as well as to Alex Kumbis for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don't forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, the Grand Tourist curator@thegrandtourist.net and follow me on Instagram an Rubenstein. And don't forget to follow the Grand Tourist on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. And leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next season.