← The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein
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- [00:00]
Stefano Boeri
On the other side, I think that city will remain the protagonist. Nations were weaker in conditioning all the efforts to develop a transitional technological transition and cities were becoming protagonists, recognizing cities as protagonists more than nations, more than national state. I think this is why the role of majors, for instance, is so important and the role of municipalities is so important.
- [00:31]
Dan Rubenstein
Hi, I'm Dan. I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour to the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life. In a town like New York, cutting edge architecture usually means ultra luxurious towers packed with amenities and over the top everything. Anything else tends not to innovate too much and it's easy to feel disappointed in the power of architecture to change our lives and our environment. That's why it's so inspiring today to meet our guest, Stefano Boeri. He's one of Italy's leading thinkers in architecture and design. He's an urban planner and the president of the legendary design museum called the Triennale, as well as the brains behind some truly incredible projects that make you think. He's a native of Milan and knows its urban fabric better than most. In classic Italian fashion, he takes after his mother, who is also a famed and rare female talented designer, Gini Boeri. He was once the editor of the pivotal Italian design magazine Domus and is the type to create a manifesto that really adds something to the discipline and trajectory of design. More on that later this year he's celebrating the 10th anniversary of the Bosco Verticale, or Vertical Forest, a pair of towers in Milan covered in plants and trees. It's an idea that was radical in its time and still is today. But this isn't just a matter of putting some potted plants on a few balconies either, but using the residential towers as a thriving ecosystem all its own. The incredible project, which has been widely influential and he's repeated similar designs around the globe, is also the subject of a new book out next month from Rizzoli. I caught up with Stefano from his studio in where else? Milan, to discuss growing up in the shadow of his famous mother, how developers first told him that the Bosco Verticale would be impossible to pull off, the origins and meaning of his urban forestry manifesto, his upcoming and highly spiritual megaproject.
- [02:34]
Unknown
In Nepal, and much more. You were born and raised in Milan and of course your work has left such an amazing mark on the city from like an urban point of view. I'M wondering, you know, what are your earliest memories of Milan like as a city, as a child?
- [02:54]
Stefano Boeri
I was born in Milano and I spent the first two decades of my life in Piazza Sant'Ambrogio. Piazza Sant'Ambrogios is in the center of Milano and it's an amazing square with the presence of a Roman church. I cannot forget the. Let's see, the feeling of the presence of this unbelievable quadriportico, who is the space just behind the church with at the same time, the succor and let's say profane space is a place where I used to play football with my friends. And at the same time was a very, let's say, nobile and soccer environment. But basically, Milano. It's always part of my feelings and also my perception of any urban environment that I have met in my life. So it's like a kind of precondition. It's like a filter. We could say that I used Milano as a filter. And I'm used to compare with the Milano environment, the Milano landscape, the proportion between empty and millspace, any other urban environment I've met in my life. So I think that for an architect, it's very important to have this kind of interior, intimate city, but normally correspond to the city where you are born. Not necessarily. In my case, it's absolutely. Let's say there is a very strong superimposition. So Milano is exactly. Well, I recognize a kind of matrix of Milano as a filter with all what I've seen and all what I've experienced. And basically that's also kind of fertile device in my activity as an architect, as a designer.
- [05:05]
Unknown
And a lot of my guests, they might have a parent, one or two parents that were in the art and design world or creative. But your mother, Chini Boeri, was a very prominent figure. And I was wondering if you can explain to the audience, especially an American audience, who your mother was, in brief, of course, and her contribution to design was. And just explain that part of it.
- [05:32]
Stefano Boeri
Yeah, my mother was a designer and an architect. She also was born in Milano. She was a graduate of Politecnico, like me. And I think she was a very. You can imagine, after the Second World War, we had only few women that were, let's say, part of the architectural elite in Italy. Gaiolenti, Anna Ferreri, Anna Castelli Ferreri and Cini Boeri and Franca Helgi. Franca Helg, who was the wife of Franco Albini. But all the. They were extremely brave. So they were capable to enter in this very, let's say, masculine field. And what Chini was always trying to develop in her approach to design, it's the concept of autonomy. She was designing a private house, she was designing buildings, she was designing furniture, always with this idea of autonomy and always trying to connect the result of his. Of her professional activity with, let's say, the obsession that were part of. Obsession, yes, the obsession that were part of her very private, intimate life. So she has an idea of. Of the concept of family was very important, very strong, and was based on the concept that every member of the family should require and ask a very important autonomy relation with the other. And only if this happens, you can cohabit. So it's this kind of balance between cohabitation and, let's say, independency that was very strong in all what she has done in her life. And this was present basically also in her architectures. If I go back to what she did in Sardinia, the three villas she did in Sardinia, the three houses she did in Sardinia that were based on this concept, but also in her work as a designer, that was always very important.
- [07:59]
Unknown
And you studied at Milan's Politecnico, where I think where you just mentioned that your mother also attended. Was that your choice to become a designer or was that something you felt maybe the pressure of the family to start?
- [08:12]
Stefano Boeri
No, when I was 18 and when I finished my, let's say, high school, I didn't want to do architecture at all. I started to, let's say, explore all the possible alternatives. And I was extremely attracted by oceanography and by marine biology, but was complicated because the place where was better, the best place to study oceanography was nice, nice in French, and I didn't want to go there. So finally I decided not to do oceanography. And then I started again. Again, again. And understood that my interest for architecture was extremely strong. Although my mother was. She absolutely was not pushing, but she was there always. She was always there. And probably the reason I started to study architecture from the scale of urbanism. So I graduated in studying master plans, basically, and I started to. Well, I immediately went in the opposite direction in the field of architecture. My mother was more oriented to furniture, to interiors. I was more oriented to, let's say, an approach towards the scale of the urban environment. So acting as a master plan designer, for instance.
- [09:37]
Unknown
And I don't know much about your early career in the 80s, so maybe you can explain what were your aspirations when you graduated? What were those first years like? I know, I think you were teaching also and you Were studying in Venice.
- [09:48]
Stefano Boeri
I started to. I had a PhD in Venice and my maestro, my teacher was Bernardo Secchi, who was a very important scholar and teacher. And he was one of the thinker that in the 80s started to describe the sprawl as a phenomenon happening not only in Europe. And he was very smart in his description. And I was also say, immediately involved in this attempt to describe what was happening around us. Because basically what we were studying at university was, let's say, the history of architecture and the past. So there is this kind of possession to study the classic architecture as a matrix of everything. And there were no attention to contemporary environment. So what Bernardo Secchi did and what I started to do in the 80s, writing a book on Milano and then write a book together with photographer Gabriele basilico. In the 90s, we were developing a kind of, let's say, exploration of the. Not the peripheral but of suburban environment around Milan, around Roma, around Naples. And we were studying this kind of, let's say, very, very particular environment, which is not a city, but it's not a countryside where you can find this multitude of small buildings everywhere without quality. And we were studying exactly that phenomenon. And that was very important for me. And I remember when we were part of the Venice Biennale in 1996 with Gabriele Basrico and this book and the exhibition we've done was called Italy Cross Section of a Country. It was also published in English and was important for a certain period. I also was very attracted by description of, let's say, by a kind of geography of the urban environment. And there was a founder of group of research are called Multiplicity.
- [12:15]
Unknown
That was my next question, which was, tell me about Multiplicity and what that research group was.
- [12:20]
Stefano Boeri
Yeah, no, well, my feeling was that the, let's say, the traditional way to observe and describe the urban environment. So this kind of genital point of view was less and less useful. And we need to put together other perspectives, other angles, view, observation. And that's why with multiplicity, I started to develop this concept of eclectic atlases, so to describe the relation between the things, the world and the concept, not using only a kind of, let's say, zenithal point of view, but trying to introduce in a description other possible perspective, dynamic perspective, or let's say, perspective, where we are putting together the point of view of different subjects. So I was very interested in creating a group, a research group, Multiplicity, who was not only composed by architect, but also by photographer, by psychologist, by geographers. And we started to work in the 90s 92, 93 in Milano. Then we were was quite interested because quite immediately we were more successful in the contemporary art field than in the architectural.
- [13:57]
Unknown
How so?
- [13:58]
Stefano Boeri
But so strange. We were part of documenta in Kassel 2022, 2002. We were asked to develop our, let's say installation and our research in London, in New York, in Paris, but always in a contemporary art context. I don't know why, but was quite interesting. It was also very important for us because that was a way to learn how to express not only the result of our research, but also the methodology. So we are quite. I think we are capable to use this art context as a way to say it's a kind to offer the possibility of falsification, because every visitor could have the possibility to see what we have done, to decide if they like it or not, but also to discuss the methodology we are using as a researcher. And so multiplicity was very important for me.
- [15:17]
Dan Rubenstein
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- [16:48]
Unknown
And you started your firm Boeri Studio in 1999 and what was the first project that your studio completed that you felt maybe in your mind go, ah, okay, this is here who we are. This represents who I am and my aspirations as a firm. Like what was your. In another way of saying your first big success?
- [17:10]
Stefano Boeri
Yeah, was no doubt on that was a geothermal plant. Geothermal plant for Enel, who was the most important energy company in Italy. And this was built, if I'm not wrong, in 1994, 1995, and was quite interesting because the request was to mimetized, let's say, really badly conditioning the landscape in Tuscan, in Monte Amiata, nearby Grosseto. And what we did and what I did was in a way the opposite. So we wanted to, let's say, emphasize to make this mechanical presence, not didn't want to hide it, but to maybe make them more and more visible, adding a different configuration. So we were reinterpreting the space, the industrial mechanism, in a new way. And I remember well that project was appreciated by Salvaro Sidza and Tadao Ando and was awarded. And we were part of an exhibition in Tokyo, in Japan, where at a certain moment there was this award for young architects, for European young architects. And so that was probably the first step in my career.
- [18:49]
Unknown
And just to get this right, that was before you started the studio in 1999 or after?
- [18:55]
Stefano Boeri
No, because honestly I started the studio by myself also I started to have a studio because basically where I am now, it's where I was. So in the same space, in the same city, in the same road. And my private apartment is, let's say, in the same floor of my studio. And since basically 1984, 1985, so I started to work as an architect immediately after the university. So in, basically in 1981, 82, 83. And I started to do competition and the project for Bagnolo Renal, for the Geoplant thermal plant was, if I'm not Wrong, was in 1992, 1993. Then in 1999, I was founding the Boeri Studio with two young students I had from. From Genoa Milano. And that was another step, if you want. Yeah, because I started to teach in Genova in 1992. From 92 to 2002 I was teaching in Geneva.
- [20:12]
Unknown
And now you've done many projects, but.
- [20:15]
Dan Rubenstein
Of course, today I'd love to talk.
- [20:16]
Unknown
To you about the Vasco Verdicale. And you, I think you had the concept for. The idea had started when you were the director of Domus magazine, one of the important design magazines in Italy and the world, especially at the time. Tell me about that idea and how the idea started before the building, just as a concept on paper, essentially.
- [20:39]
Stefano Boeri
Well, yes, it's. No, no, I think you're right. What was. Something was very present in my life. So the idea to try to combine living nature with Architecture and started to work around this obsession. Probably, yes, you're right. When I started to run the Damos magazine and at the same time, well, same time, I think I had was quite difficult to find an opportunity to transform this obsession in a real opportunity to do something real. And this happened only in 2007, when I met Mr. Heinz and his Italian CEO and they asked me to imagine how to realize two high rise building in the center of Milano, important in an area who was bombed during the second World War. And it was, let's say, remained as a kind of black hole for 50 years. And I remember well that I was teaching at Harvard GSD in 2007, 2008, and with my students we're studying Dubai, the explosion of this city in a desert environment with hundreds of high rise buildings covered by glass. And well, I remember very well that I was in Dubai in that very moment when I started to think how to answer to the request of Mr. Heinz and Mr. Cattell. And then I started to imagine, well, why don't we try to convince them that could be so interesting and to develop a high rise building which act as a kind of ecosystems, where instead of having a mineral facade with glass of steel or concrete, we could have a kind of double facade, biological facade with plants and trees. And this happened when I was exactly in Dubai, where this hundred of glasses facade were growing. And yes, I think there was a relation between these two texts. And then they at the beginning were very skeptical and they told me, well, dear Boeri, I think you are crazy. But for different reasons, they were in a certain way in debit me because they knew that I could be extremely helpful from, let's say, an intellectual or political point, for other reason I could help them to go ahead in their project of developing this new settlement. So they told me, well, for us what you are proposing is impossible, but if you want, we can give you three months. You have the time to come back with answers to this list of very strong requests. And the question, how can a tree live at 100 meter? How can you imagine to irrigate 10, 20, 30,000 plants, considering the different humidity conditions? How can you imagine to manage and to develop the maintenance of these trees? How much will be the cost of the maintenance? How can you avoid that with extreme windy condition, a tree at 100, 120 meter break and create problems for the tenants and for the inhabitants of the district? So what I did was I was simply gathering a bunch of friends, engineers, etologists, zoologists, and we spent, let's say, Three months studying, and then we came back with the answer. And honestly, they were very current. The two men were very current with their expectation. They told me, yes, okay, we can start. And we started. So we started in 2007 to transform this, let's kind abstract concept in something real. Then we started the construction in 2009. But 2009, as you know well, was a very direct period for them, let's say, for not only for the real estate sphere, but more in general for the economy of Europe and worldwide. Cannon so the construction company who started to build the Voska Verticale was collapsing in 2012. So for two years, for one year and a half, we were. They say, well, what's happening? Because everything was stopped. Then we found another construction company who decided to go ahead and we were inaugurated, opening the building in October 2014. So exactly 10 years ago, we were lucky, very lucky.
- [26:21]
Unknown
And one of the elements of Bosco Verticale that I think gets overlooked, I think just to the average person, is that it's not necessarily just about putting trees on a building, right? But that it's also sort of a habitat that impacts not just the building, but also for animals. And I was wondering. Tell me about that sort of ecosystem that it creates, not just larger potted plants on a terrace.
- [26:50]
Stefano Boeri
No, I think it's. We have a very small apartment. We have rented a small apartment in the vertical forest, and we go there quite frequently to, let's say, test the cohabitation between humans, birds, insects and plants. And it's extremely interesting to observe this cohabitation. Until now, honestly, we didn't have serious troubles on this, observing this cohabitation, but I think it's what makes this building, I think, a prototype of a possible generation of new buildings is that it's possible to imagine, let's say, a cohabitation inside one unique building of different living species or living being. And it's possible to. To see how these buildings that are, let's say, as we are written, building for birds and plants, and not only for humans, let's say, can be replicated and interpreted in different continents, in different environment. I'm very happy, I think, that after 10 years, this prototype, this experiment is answering quite well to the request we had, and we have learned a lot from it. So we have learned also in terms of. We are now, I think, in condition to correct some mistakes, to improve some of the character of the building itself. It's very important. Basically, I think the most significant result of what we have done is that this building is always changing that's so strong. That's something that I didn't expect changing because the fact that it's covered by plants makes this building mutant. So every season, every year, sometimes also in one day, you can see in terms of how they react to the sunlight, the change. So it's a kind of ever changing, overchanging building is very, very, very unexpected and important for me, this quality which is quite unique.
- [29:26]
Unknown
And what did you learn? Like what if you could do this Bosco verticale again from scratch? How would you do different, anything differently?
- [29:35]
Stefano Boeri
Well, I think it. We Immediately after 2014, the opening of the versus vertical, we had been asked to, not to replicate but to design other, let's say, green high rise buildings in other parts of the world. And every time we had to start not with our, let's say, stylistic obsession, but we start considering the climate condition of every space, every place. And then after observing the climate condition, we start to select the plants, the species that are more adaptable to this specific climate condition. And only at that moment we start to act as designer. Because the life trajectory of every species is for us extremely important. When we design the facade, when we design the relation between the balcony and the loggia, or between two balconies. So we have to give to every tree, to every shrubs, to every bush, to every plants, the space for its growth. And this is a completely different way to design a building. So if you want, we are considering trees as tenants, we are really considering their request, the expectation, the trajectory, growth. And so we have in a way introduced botany in our knowledge. And this is still extremely intriguing and interesting. And this explains also why all the vertical force that we have designed in Holland, in China, in, in Egypt are different. Because every time we start again, you.
- [31:38]
Unknown
Know, if you want, and you know, 10 years later, how is the building holding up? Like, how is it, you know, how the people. What is the feedback like from the people that live there now that they've been there for, for 10 years?
- [31:52]
Stefano Boeri
No. Well, in Milano I think it's fantastic the reaction of people. So the. We honestly didn't have any kind of trouble problems. If I go and I see what's happening in Eindhoven, for instance, where we had built three years ago a social housing vertical forest, which is completely inhabited by student and young researcher is all for rent. It's very, let's say very cheap if you want, in terms of construction, cost, building, but extremely successful. And also in that case I'm very happy what's happening there. So there are the same in China In Guangu, where we have built these two towers, which are also in a way, such a housing from a certain point of view. So I think it's. I have the dream to create a kind of an association of tenants of the buildings that have this kind of philosophy. I probably will do it in the future.
- [32:55]
Unknown
Good. And tell me a little bit about. To people that don't know. Tell me about your sort of manifesto.
- [33:02]
Stefano Boeri
Manifesto?
- [33:03]
Unknown
The urban forestry sort of manifesto and what urban forestry means to you.
- [33:09]
Stefano Boeri
No, we started to think how to scale the concept of ecosystem to the entire urban environment. And that's why we were launching this manifesto in 2015. And I think we used it also to promote the first international forum on Urban Forestry together with FAO Food Agricultural Organization of the United Nations. And this was held in Mantua. And the second one was last year in Washington. The next will be in China in two years. Well, this is simply because we believe that to build green buildings is not enough if we want to slow down the global warming effect. So if we want really to tickle and to try to reduce the disadvantages of climate change, we have to, let's say, extend this kind of green obsession to different and stronger and wider actions like introduce forest and urban environment and connect all the green environments, creating biological corridors. So that's why we were working on that everywhere. We are asked to intervene as architects, urban planners. So I think this is a very important issue for different reasons. But the main reason is that CTR producing the 70% of CO2 which is present in the atmosphere. And the cheaper, the more pragmatic and the more inclusive way to try to, let's say to slow down or to counterpoint the production of CO2 is to enlarge the biological and greenness environment inside our cities, like to fight the enemy in its field. And that's for us, extremely important because trees are absorbing CO2, trees are absorbing the fine dust of pollution. Trees are reducing the consumption of energy because they're also shading the facade, so reducing the need of conditioning the air, the summertime, for instance. But trees are also shading. And I think it's also. That's why we are also working a lot with urban forestry everywhere. We just finished to propose a project for making a part of Riyadh greener and as a way to shade all the public spaces and to reduce the consumption of energy. I think that shade will become one of the main issues of the future. We need more and more and more shade everywhere in our cities, which are mineral environments. And we have to go back to the idea that basically cities should be ecosystems and not only mineral environments. And we need plants to do that because plants are at the base of any possible biological evolution.
- [36:40]
Unknown
And, you know, obviously, we're dealing at the time that I'm speaking to you, we're dealing with an election and a lot of political changes both in the United States and in Europe. And I'm wondering, with so much emphasis being placed on the urban center as this sort of hope for the future. Right. What can the design world do about the sort of political implications of that? Meaning, are we overlooking the sort of the rural areas or small towns or the other parts of the world, the other 30, 40, 50% of where people live? Right. Are we, are we putting too much emphasis on the city intellectually, that we're not coming up with something that is could be enacted upon as much as it should be? Does that make sense?
- [37:31]
Stefano Boeri
Probably, I'm sure. You know, Richard Weller is a teacher at Penn University, and he is a friend and some years ago came out with this idea of World Park. And what Richard was saying is that we need to connect all the biodiversity hubs present in the planet. And thanks to this possible network of biological corridors, we could multiplicate the advantages produced by these biodiversity hubs. And he was designing three main, let's say green and biological paths that are connecting different part of the planet, of the continental planet and at a different scale. We are working in Italy and in South Europe with the same idea. And we are developing this idea of Parco Italia, which is exactly where we are putting connection, not only the natural reserves, but all, let's say, the place where you have a hot pot of biodiversity. And this is very important because there's also a way to try to intervene on the hundreds of small historical villages of hamlets that we have in the in Central Italy, we have in Germany, we have in French that are northern part abandoned or semi abandoned. So I think that this, what we are saying about the necessity to not simply, let's say, reduce our observation to city is absolutely crucial. We have to enlarge scale of things on the other side. I think that city will remain the protagonist all what will happen in the future. And you started your answer talking about politics, about what will happen in the United States. Well, if you go back to the period of Trump, the last period of Trump, there was probably a moment where nations were weaker in conditioning all the force to developing transition, technological transition, and cities were becoming protagonist of this campaign. If I go back to, there were several Cities association that were promoting ecological transition and that became stronger and stronger in that period. So I think what will happen in the next month will be the same. So I think we have to go back to recognizing cities as protagonists, more than nations, more than national state in this campaign. And well, I think this is why the role of mayors, for instance, is so important and the role of municipality is so important.
- [40:42]
Unknown
And of course I can't overlook your role at the Triennale. And to someone maybe coming to visit, maybe you say someone came to visit.
- [40:50]
Dan Rubenstein
Milan for the first time and they.
- [40:51]
Unknown
Said, what is the Triennale? How do you describe it?
- [40:54]
Stefano Boeri
That's a good question. Triennale, because this name is quite ambiguous, it means three years. But the reason is that Trinale was born 100 years ago. And the building who is hosting the activity of the Trinalis institution was built 90 years ago. And since 1928 Tenal is part of the BIE Bureau Internationale des Exposition, which is a place in Paris where all the Expos are promoted. All the international Expos that you can see was in Dubai last year, before Dubai was Milan and then was Shanghai and so on. So since 1928, this building in Milano was hosting every three years an international expo. But in 1980, the Ternale foundation, so the association of the institutions that were promoting the Tenali Expo decided to change basically its activity, the life of the institution. And the decision was to have a series of permanent activities. So not only every three years, but the name Triennale was still present as a legacy of this past and is still there, but now Trienale. Nowadays Triennale is a public institution within a public building. And what makes this place so unique in Milano is that we have a theater, we have a dance room, we have several exhibition spaces, we have several restaurants. It's a place to go and to stay, not simply to be part or to visit an exhibition. Well, I think it's an amazing place. It's a little bit like Barbican in London. So we deal with cinema, theater, design, architecture, visual art, graphic fashion and all together there. So it's a place where all the art languages were used to hybridize themselves, to not respect borders between discipline and art.
- [43:24]
Unknown
And what is your sort of mandate been as director? What are the big projects, the big piece, the big things you're moving, not talking about like individual exhibitions. What is your sort of big mandate?
- [43:34]
Stefano Boeri
Yeah, I will say two things. One was to. To, let's say, to work on the. On a bunch of protagonists of the recent History of Italian design and architecture and to approach each one of them from an anthropological point of view, not simply from, let's say, technical or simply architectural point of view. So we were reconstructing the life and the amazing human relation they had in their life. That's one and the other interest or part of my mandate probably will be invisible in few months because we are going to open on May, the 24 Expo International Expo. And who will have us a title, how to manage a fracture of Humanity. And it will be all on describing inequalities in different fields, showing how inequalities have grown, are growing everywhere, basically in our cities, but also observing how we cannot simply applicate a kind of binary approach to inequality. Because inequalities are part sometimes of different aspects of our life. They are related with life expectations, they are related with gender, they are related with, for sure difference in terms of production of CO2 and capacity to, let's say, to implement efforts to reduce the effect of global warming. So there are different layers that we'll try to put together in the six months of the exhibition that we open on May 22nd in Milano.
- [45:40]
Unknown
And do you think that that filter has changed over the years? Has that matrix changed to today?
- [45:47]
Stefano Boeri
Not so much. Not so much. Or if you want, what has changed is that I have changed the period of the Milano history that became more and more important in certain moment of my life, of an activity as a designer, for instance, for sure. I remember very well that when I was 30, my attention were extremely focusing on all what's happening in Milano just after the Second World War, so the period 50s and the 60s with this, let's say, explosion of amazing architectures. And well, in that moment I started to. To run Thomas magazine and then a Vitare magazine. And so the idea to recognize in the two, let's say more, let's say, significant masterpieces of Pylanese architecture of the 1560s. So the Pirellino skyscraper by Gioponti and the Velazquez tower by bbpr. So these were the two metrics of my, let's say, feelings of how Milano was and how Milano should become. And for me was very important because also these two figures, so Gioponti on one side was the inventor of Domus, so he was the founder of the Domus magazine. On the other side, Ernesto Nathan Rogers, who was one of the BBPR team architectural team, was the founder of Casabella. Who are the two? So what I think about Milano, Milano is a kind of binary city. So with also two poles. It's a binary. So we have Velasquez and Pirellino. We have Domus and Casabella. We have Milan and Inter. We have Motta and Alemania. So it's always like a kind of two polarity, different soccer teams.
- [47:55]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like we have the Mets and the Yankees here. In terms of baseball in New York.
- [48:01]
Stefano Boeri
Yes, I know, I know.
- [48:03]
Unknown
If you had to describe your career in three words, what three words would you choose? Your career?
- [48:10]
Stefano Boeri
Uncertain, discontinuous and amazing.
- [48:18]
Dan Rubenstein
Thank you to my guest, Stefano Boweri, as well as to Walker Drummond and everyone at Rizzoli for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don't forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, the Grand Tourist curator@thegrandtourist.net and follow me on Instagram DanRubenstein. And don't forget to follow the Grand Tourist on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. And leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next time, Sa.