Sybil and David Yurman: The Artists Who Built an Empire

Summary

Episode Summary: Sybil and David Yurman – The Artists Who Built an Empire

In this compelling episode of "The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein," host Dan Rubinstein sits down with Sybil and David Yurman, the dynamic duo behind the renowned American jewelry brand David Yurman. Released on March 5, 2025, this episode provides an in-depth look into their artistic beginnings, entrepreneurial journey, and the enduring passion that has fueled their success over the decades.

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Early Life and Artistic Foundations

David Yurman opens up about his challenging childhood in the Bronx, contrasting sharply with Sybil's more positive experiences. He shares:

“There were gangs. Someone much older than me would approach me and say, what gang do you belong to? Do you belong to the Fordham Baldies or the Soup Gang? And I didn't know what they were talking about.”
(00:25)

In contrast, Sybil Yurman reminisces about the camaraderie and freedom she felt growing up:

“It was freedom. You could play, go, be in the street in the summertime if it was hot. It was a great sense of camaraderie and safety for me.”
(02:49)

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Meeting and Partnership

Their paths converged at the studio of sculptor Hans van der Bovenkamp in the late 1960s. Sybil recounts her first encounter:

“I was being shown around the house, and there was someone sleeping on the floor in the kitchen. I asked, what's that person doing? He said, it's Jack Kerouac. Wow, I had read on the Road, and it was like, really?”
(14:21)

David adds a vivid description of Sybil’s entrance:

“She was wearing alligator loafers... she was walking across the floor. And it was sounding like the good, the bad and the ugly.”
(21:21)

Their immediate connection blossomed into a lifelong romantic and professional partnership, marked by mutual respect and shared artistic vision.

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Transition to Craft and Business Success

Originally focused on crafting belt buckles, David discusses their early business ventures:

“We were making belt buckles... before we got into the jewelry part. I had a three million dollar business.”
(38:22)

Sybil emphasizes their initial goal wasn’t to build a company but to sustain their creativity:

“The objective was to be able to be creative, to design things, to have fun and sustain ourselves.”
(38:03)

A turning point came when they were invited to showcase their work at a major jewelry show in New York City. David recounts their pivotal meeting with Saks Fifth Avenue:

“They are Saks Fifth Avenue. I'm the buyer... He said, I'm going to give you the money.”
(42:14)

This moment signified their entry into the mainstream luxury market, setting the stage for their expansive growth.

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Navigating the Luxury Market and Brand Evolution

As their business grew, David reflects on the complexities of scaling:

“We have to prepare six months out, two years. It's a big business.”
(62:07)

Sybil shares her vision for maintaining customer joy and pleasure:

“I hope that people were still experiencing our jewelry with the same joy and pleasure.”
(68:13)

Their ability to blend creative artistry with robust business strategies has been key to their enduring success.

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Creative Process and Technological Integration

David discusses the integration of technology into their creative process:

“We can take models in 3D CAD computer and adjust them in a way that you can almost feel like you're manipulating clay.”
(59:15)

Despite embracing modern techniques, they remain committed to traditional craftsmanship, ensuring each piece retains its unique artistic essence.

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Personal Anecdotes and Notable Figures

The episode is rich with personal stories, including Sybil's encounter with Jack Kerouac and David's adventurous hitchhiking experiences. David also shares his admiration for influential figures like Kate Moss:

“She's unbelievably empathic, compassionate, funny, outrageous... She's connected.”
(54:59)

These anecdotes humanize the Yurmans, highlighting their deep connections within the artistic and cultural spheres.

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Legacy and Future Aspirations

In their concluding remarks, David underscores the importance of their partnership:

“Collaboration is messy... underneath it, you love each other. We never go to sleep angry.”
(57:00)

Sybil adds her hopes for the future:

“I hope that people were still experiencing our jewelry with the same joy and pleasure.”
(68:13)

Their enduring commitment to creativity and mutual support remains the cornerstone of their legacy.

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Notable Quotes

• David Yurman on the essence of their partnership:

  “The only thing that kept us together and focused was the love and passion of art. It's something that fed us.”
  (00:00)

• Sybil Yurman on her early artistic support:

  “My father gave me paints and canvases, and I would paint and sell my pictures to run away from home.”
  (06:57)

• David Yurman on embracing challenges:

  “If you can find something that you love, you never work a day in your life. Why would I stop doing something that I love?”
  (57:00)

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Conclusion

Dan Rubinstein masterfully unravels the inspiring journey of Sybil and David Yurman, showcasing their evolution from passionate artists to influential luxury jewelry magnates. Their story is a testament to the power of love, creativity, and resilience in building a lasting legacy. Listeners are left with a profound appreciation for their artistry and the harmonious partnership that has defined their success.

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Connect with The Grand Tourist:

• Website: thegrandtourist.net
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• Instagram: @DanRubinstein
• Listen on: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform.

Thank you to Sybil and David Yurman, and to everyone at Phaidon for their contributions to this episode.

Transcript

[David Yurman]

We are simple as a runaway. I'm a hitchhiker. Dyslexic major. Add flipping from this to that, that the only thing that kept us together and focused was the love and passion of art. It's something that fed us. We did what we wanted. We went to pleasure, not to excessive pleasure, we went to very disciplined.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life. The world of jewelry is a fickle one, dominated by many of the European houses that have decades or even centuries of history behind them. There are only a handful of American names in the business and one of them is the topic of conversation today. And wouldn't you know it, this purveyor of luxury didn't start with a royal warrant or massive investment from aristocratic backers. Instead, it started with a pair of young artists, madly in love, who used their creative talents mixed with some old fashioned New Yorker bravado to create pieces for men and women that have stood the test of time. David and Cybill Yurman. Originally both from the Bronx, the pair had their own rambunctious journeys through life as artists before meeting in the studio of a respected sculptor in the late 60s, which we'll get into before collaborating on things like belt buckles and bracelets. Sybil, an accomplished painter and master of color and abstraction, and David, a sculptor who created his own directly welded works. Of course, the history of the David Yurman name is vast, but in hearing their story today, you'll get to experience the flow of time through some of the most creative decades in American art, craft, design and eventually luxury. Their incredible journey has been detailed in the new book, Sybil and David Artists and Jewelers, published by Phaidon. I caught up with David and Sybil from their home in Manhattan to talk about their lives as rebellious kids being central figures and a success story from the age of the American craft scene. How their son Evan has gone on to carry the torch. The Times Cybill ran into Jack Kerouac, what Kate Moss is really like and more. I know you guys met, you know, later in life, but you were both born in New York the same year. So I was wondering.

[Sybil Yurman]

Well, we didn't meet later in life. We met at. When we were 25. But I did have quite a life before I was 25.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Sure. Well, you were. You didn't meet when you were born.

[David Yurman]

That's for sure. We were five blocks apart.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Five blocks apart. Okay. And so tell me about your first memories of life in the city as children. Five blocks apart, but even though you didn't know each other, of course, at the time. Sybil, what's your earliest memory of New York?

[Sybil Yurman]

Well, mine were actually quite wonderful, of the Bronx. It was a place for exploration. I lived right off Brooknable, right near where the White Castle is on Brooklyn Boulevard. It was a wonderful experience. It was freedom. You could play, go, be in the street in the summertime if it was hot. You could sleep on a fire escape or be outside with a cot. It was a great sense of camaraderie and safety for me. Many children. There's a picture in the book of a group of about 10 children on the street. So there was always interactions. Bert Tansky, who was the chairman of Neiman's, lived next on the same street. For me, it was sunshine, it was camaraderie.

[David Yurman]

Well, I gotta say, I don't know what block you were living on, but I wish I was one block closer because I can say it's Haiti. It was death and destruction. It was ugly, it was fearful. It was a living nightmare for me. I was very disoriented. There were gangs. Someone much older than me would approach me and say, what gang do you belong to? Do you belong to the Fordham Baldies or the Soup Gang? And I didn't know what they were talking about. I felt I was dropped in from another planet. And I would be regularly beaten up by, you know, saying the wrong gang. And it was, thank God. I only lived there until I was about 9 years old, 9 or 10. And we moved out to Long island where it was a house. I was on a. Like, a little bit of property, some fruit trees. I had a bicycle. Life was good. Everything flipped, totally flipped when I moved out.

[Dan Rubenstein]

And, Cybil, in your book, you describe yourself as sort of as a young person, as rebellious, and your parents as sort of like formidable characters. Tell me about your parents, and did they kind of encourage you as a young artist or as a young aspiring artist or a blossoming one?

[Sybil Yurman]

Oh, yes. Well, I didn't live with my parents until. I lived with my parents until I was about 15 and a half, 16. I ran away from home very early, but my father, who was a poet and he was a designer of furniture. He was very. Our house was. Even though our apartment was very small, it was a one bedroom. My parents slept in the living room. But our furniture was beautiful Danish furniture. Things were made Furniture was made from cherry wood by designers. The walls were. My father would put up different pictures of Gauguin or Matisse or the artist that was touching him at the moment, even though it was this tiny little apartment, three children sleeping in a bedroom. And it was very difficult childhood. My brother died when I was 10 years old. He was only 6. So there was a great deal of trauma around that. My father being a poet and having to work three jobs to support us all was also trauma. But when he realized I liked to paint, he bought me paints. And I didn't have a lot of money, so he gave me the colors I wanted and canvases, and I would paint and sell my pictures to whomever came in the house or whoever lived near us. And I used that money to run away from home.

[Dan Rubenstein]

And David, in the book, you describe your own childhood as tricky and you mention an undiagnosed sort of dyslexia. How do you believe that kind of affected you as a young man? And also did it maybe even push you to be more visual and to kind of like, oh, exactly, this is a more creative world?

[David Yurman]

Yeah, I, I think if you're afflicted with something, whatever, whatever the deficiency is you, you. It's like water. You try to. I think the creative spirit is. Wants to go where it's. Where it can be healthiest, where the sun is. And, and for sure, I was dyslexic. Still am a bit. There was no adhd. It's just David is acting out and, and not paying attention, which I still do. But the acting out was like. It became like, how does it get me out of class and get me to the nurse's office so I don't have to be embarrassed when they ask me the question that I don't know the answer to because I couldn't read well enough. And I would fall asleep after about 15 minutes of reading. I would just doze. So it made me move towards the visual and I think the proclivity. You know, my father was, he's. He thought he was in the belt and trimming business in the, on. In the, the fashion district. And, and he, he really was. He owned this business called Foremost Trimmings, and he made belts and, and trim for the dress industry for Evan Pacone and Mary Mecco, and he matched and he designed these wide cinch belts of the 50s and lame, stretchy and, and just all kinds of emblematic stuff. I, I'd go to see his, his factory every once in a while on Saturday and just climb around the Bolts of fabric and stuff. And so there was that creativity or understanding of fashion. He was a dresser of a picture of him wearing. I think they were. They were loafers. He was in a boat, a little. Little rowboat, and was fishing. And he's wearing alligator loafers. Not exactly the shoe you want to be wearing on a boat, but he thought it looked really nice, so maybe they were getting old, so he wanted to throw them out. But that was his boat shoe, alligator loafers.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Did you. Did you think you were ever gonna. Did he ever push you to be like, you know, one of the. One of these days, kid, this is all gonna be yours kind of thing?

[David Yurman]

There was no lineage there. There was very little. The only real contact I had with my father, with the exception of going on occasional to see the factory, it was really, let's go horseback riding. Let's dress you up so you look like a proper. A son of the gentleman rider. And we wore jodfas and tweed jackets. And we went to Hempstead Lake State Park. And on most Saturdays when probably from the age of 13, 12, 13 to the age of 15 or 16, and we rode together, there was not a lot of conversation. There was not a lot of training. It was sort of like, figure it out. You're on the horse. You know, pull back, you'll stop. Okay, catch up.

[Dan Rubenstein]

I think I actually. I think I was actually dragged to go horseback riding in the same place a few decades later. And I definitely did not enjoy it. But that's a podcast for another day.

[David Yurman]

It's scary right around with it. There are. There's a parkway around this. These reservoirs.

[Dan Rubenstein]

I find horses very scary.

[David Yurman]

Oh, I love my. I've.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Horses are the worst. And later on in, you know, in. In the 60s, you guys both rebelled against convention, and you spent a lot of time in the Village and out west in the country. I'd love to hear from you guys in your own words, sort of how that journey was before you met that sort of. Those sort of formative years. Sybil, let's start with you, because I know you spent some time in San Francisco.

[Sybil Yurman]

Yes, I did. Well, when I was 16, as I said, I was 16 and a half, I ran away from home to Greenwich Village, and I was able to get a job in a coffee shop on Bleecker street and meet a lot of interesting people that I didn't know existed. But I knew there was life after the Bronx. That's why I wanted to leave. At a very early stage, I met a group, the Leary and Alpert. People. And mescaline was something that was quite common at the time. And so hallucinogenics and the beginning of Zen Buddhism and poetry, poetry readings. Met Allen Ginsberg and Peter Orlovsky, and that was in Greenwich Village. And then what we did was, I went to San Francisco. A friend of mine, I had always wanted to swim in the ocean. While the sunset water's always been important to me, little did I that in California the water was freezing and there were oil wells really dotting the ocean. So you really. It was not something I was able to realize as a fantasy, but I was very happy to be in California, where the people were very different than what had become of the Bronx. And I was fortunate because my friend had told me, go to City Lights bookstore and put your name on and your whereabouts, address, where you're going to be, and I'll find you. And sure enough, in a few days, this person found me and then took. I had to find a place to live and took me to a place called the Hyphen House. And the Hyphen House was a house where pretty much beat writers of the time lived. And no women were supposed to live there. The women were at a place called the East West House. But because I was so young, he thought they would let me stay there and take care of the house to keep it clean. And they did. When? The first day that I was brought there, I was being shown around the house, and I looked in the kitchen. He was showing me the kitchen, and there was someone sleeping on the floor in the kitchen. And I asked, what's that person doing on the floor? Who is it? And he said, oh, it's Jack Kerouac. Do not wake him up. And it was like, what?

[Dan Rubenstein]

Okay.

[Sybil Yurman]

Wow. I had read on the Road, and it was like, really? And so that was the beginning of me being a peripheral character in the lives of the people that were at the East West House and at the Hyphen House.

[David Yurman]

So were you the only painter? No, it just seemed like a literary world of. No, there was interesting dropouts.

[Sybil Yurman]

No, there was another painter in the house, but I can't remember his name for some reason. And he was very good and very successful. And when they realized I wanted to paint, Cassidy got me paints. He would come to different places.

[David Yurman]

Wait a minute. Is that Hopalong Cassidy?

[Sybil Yurman]

No, no.

[David Yurman]

What Cassidy are we talking about?

[Dan Rubenstein]

Well, if you can't remember his name. Well, you know.

[David Yurman]

Well, you know, the mushrooms.

[Dan Rubenstein]

That's true, that's true. That's Glennessa or all that stuff. And David, you, you, I heard you, you did the most American of rituals. You hitchhiked cross country Many times. Many times. Okay, many times. Why, why hitchhike? Why hitchhike? Why not money? Or you have this idea of like, this is going to be an awesome adventure.

[David Yurman]

Exactly. I thought it'd, adventure. I didn't read on the Road. It was an adventure. I had finished high school at one year of college, and then I was supposedly going to Santa Monica City College. I sent some papers off, so I was going to matriculate, as I said, and my parents gave me about a hundred bucks, $150, and, and a ticket to take a bus to California. So a friend, friend of mine, Bob Berg, and I went to the, the ticket station office and we ready to get on the bus. And I said, can I return this for money? Yeah, $78. I said, great, I'd like to get $78 back. And Bob looked at me, so what are you doing? I said, well, I think it's, we could hitchhike. It'd be better to hitchhike. And we just had two rucksacks. That was our, that's, it was called rucksacks back then, the backpacks, and we hitch. It was a great experience going out together. I mean, really, I mean, some frightening moments. I, I, we got to St. Louis and he wanted to stay. He had a girlfriend. I want to go out to, to Santa Monica and be out with the beatniks. So he said, I'm staying. I'll meet you out there. And that's, I hitchhiked the rest of the way and that's great. That's definitely too much time to tell the adventures. And there were a lot of adventures on that first trip out. But I, I did drive away cars and I hitched about, about five times back and forth.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Oh, wow. Okay. What was the craziest thing that ever happened to you on a hitchhike? Any hitchhiking trip?

[David Yurman]

It was the, it was the year, actually it was two or three years after that. It was the year that Kennedy was shot, that was assassinated. And it was that next morning I was in, in Terre. Hoot. Terre. And, and no, it's on the Will Rogers Parkway. It was part of Route 66. And this guy picked me up and he started asking me these questions and where are you going? Where do you come from? Just lots of interrogative questions. And I said, are you like, you police? I mean, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm okay, you know, what do you think about this, you know, the assassination we're talking. He said, no, I'm a truant officer. And I, I think I was 22, 23. So he wasn't looking at me being, you know, cutting from school. And, and so we're just chatting away and there's a couple, a young couple on the side of the road, picks them up. They go in the back seat and he starts asking them questions and they're giving him all the wrong answers. They're changing their story. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're going to see our aunt, our uncle, I mean. And I said, oh, oh, God. So he goes up a couple of 10 miles with that and he pulls over to the side and he said, well, David, this is where I'm going to let you off. It's good enough for you here. And it gives me a little wink. I said, yeah, yeah, it's fine. Thank you. I get out and he makes a big looping u turn off the highway. And oh dear, there was another one where I actually had a gun pulled on me. But I don't want to tell. That's bad memory. But most of them were good. Most of them were. I drove a, a bus picked me up outside of Indiana and was the buses whole? 7 or 8 buses were leaving Indiana and going to Oxnard, California. And I took the whole ride with them and all the people that were picked up along the way, vagrants and teachers and a painter who had blood poisoning. I said next was going to see his, his, his, his daughter. And it was just incredible. I also learned how to thread a needle while, while sitting in the back of a bus. This guy showed me that you, most important, you take the thread and you get a little wet and you bring the needle to the thread, not the thread to the needle. So if you ever want to be threading a needle in the back of a bus, remember, you take the needle to the thread.

[Dan Rubenstein]

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[Sybil Yurman]

Well, he didn't have a big impact on me as artists. As an artist, I worked for him doing their projects and commissions and saw that all the young sculptors and David was the foreman there, that we all had the materials we needed. And what it did for me was I met David there and that was the beginning of our friendship. And then three months.

[David Yurman]

Romance is good.

[Sybil Yurman]

I just said it in the beginning of our romance, okay, was, you know, on my birthday in December. So I started working in September. So three months later, we started a romance. And we've been together now for 53 years.

[David Yurman]

So I started the romance from day one. When you walked in the door, Listen, she walks in the door, this long studio, 75ft in Lenten, and the door sort of in the middle, and this person comes out with giant, like, it was like Cher hair, just black hair, black hair. And it was this wild kind of like shrub. And she was wearing a poncho sweater from probably from Peru on the top, but on the bottom she had this, a similar poncho on the bottom. And his black bushy hair. And black. I think they were black boots, red laces, and there were little bells. And she was walking across the floor. And it was sounding like the good, the bad and the ugly. And I kaching ka ching. I'm like leaning over and look at her and look. And so was everyone else. All the other six or seven sculptors were all leaning. I said, wow, what was that? I don't know. But. But Hans, she's definitely gonna have an interesting interview. And. And she got the job, and she kind of. She got all the guys together because at lunchtime we would. We'd separate and go different ways, but she got us to have communal lunches together. And. And she was sort of like. She was very attractive, and everyone was sort of hitting on her, and we were, you know, she. She was totally in control. It was, you know, she wasn't like this little cute secretary gal Friday, and she wanted to learn how to do some welding. So we. She was. She was welding and brazing. We were doing. Hanson, for me, was a businessman as well as an artist. I mean, equal. I mean, I liked his art. I like what he made. And a lot of the guys were like, ah, that's. You know, that's. He's just doing architectural. Did I just. I mean, he's doing big projects, you know, I wouldn't put him down. Well, you know, he did the.

[Sybil Yurman]

He did the. At the Peachtree Plaza. The sculpture there that shoots flames. He did that piece that was mostly most.

[David Yurman]

He's making these large fountains, but he had a commercial business where you could put a fountain in your home. There are seven or eight styles, and we manufactured them by hand. These copper fountains and things would move up and down and water wheels and little motors in them. And I was kind of the foreman of the group for a while. And then I said, oh, God, it's like care and feeding of the animals. I don't want to do that. So I worked a deal with him where I would make a fountain and do it at piecework, and I'd be an independent contractor on his premises, so I could do two days work and make my salary. And that would give me enough time to go to my studio and try to figure out what the hell I was doing.

[Sybil Yurman]

But he showed up every. But he did show up every morning and bring me coffee, which I didn't drink because I never drank coffee.

[David Yurman]

I don't know what you tell me, you know, bring me tea.

[Dan Rubenstein]

I said, well, you never told him, I don't drink coffee. You just took it as like a fun. That's. That's cute. I mean, that's pretty good. That's.

[Sybil Yurman]

Well, you know, he brought me coffee. It made him happy. I liked the donut.

[David Yurman]

That's my woman.

[Sybil Yurman]

He talked to me, and I was busy, you know, taking care of the business for the. For the group. And I did. When I. When I was there the first time, the woman that was. It had been her job, and she was walking me through. And I met all the people, all the men, and I asked her about David. I said, what about David? Is he married? And she said, no. And I said, is he gay? And she said, no. And I said, oh, okay, thanks. And he asked essential questions. Jackpot. Yes, he asked her about me, which I didn't know until later in our relationship, but it was a fun time and what I liked and really helped me towards understanding when we had our own workshop, that the idea of bringing everyone together and how important it was to have camaraderie and to either have lunch at work or all go out together and talk about what we were doing and what was working and what wasn't working when we were trying to, you know, facilitate the projects that were in front of us.

[Dan Rubenstein]

And Sybil, how would you describe them to someone you never met before? If someone says, oh, you're a painter, what are your paintings like? What did you respond?

[Sybil Yurman]

Interesting. It's still the same. It's still the same river that runs through. They were emotional connotations. They were heartfelt experiences. What it felt like, what it felt like being at the beach, looking at the sky and experiencing the sky. It's not an intellectual experience. I just had a show of my work in Sag harbor this summer and I haven't shown in years and I didn't want to necessarily. And I was asked to show a group of paintings I do. And they're house paintings. They're all houses. And they really are almost self portraits of an emotional moment. So that's what my work was about. If I was going to explain it, there were.

[Dan Rubenstein]

And David, what was your first impression of Sybil's paintings? When you. At some point she must have said, come to my studio, look at my paintings.

[David Yurman]

Like, yeah, I went, I went to 99th Street. There was a very. She had a very large all in the. On the. The west side and on Riverside, 99th, I think it was like five bedroom apartment. Her. There were other artists living there as well. Her paintings, particularly the one that's called sky, sky markings. And the sky markings were. I didn't know where the horizon was. I didn't know you were in the sky. You were in. It was like soft blues and pinks and a sharp line cutting across. And it was like, what am I looking at here? But there was something very, very compelling. And I just felt. I felt enveloped by this. The color was. It was. You got absorbed in the color and then you saw these markings and then you sort of like, there's a language here. Someone speaking. Something. Something is. There's something of intelligence that's coming across here. It was cosmically beautiful. And I never thought of looking at abstract paintings. I just. In that way that it started speaking to me much more than any abstract paintings. And I like looking. I went to museums all the time and the paintings can touch you in a way that is. They're so subtle, but just. Sybil and I went to a Morandi show on the east side in a small gallery. Some guy has collected like 60 of Morandis over the years. And there's something about. It's almost a religious experience when you sit and stand in front of a painting. The stillness of it, the intelligence of it, the, you know, this. I don't know what it is. Visual vibrations that, you know. I want to get too mushy here. But for me, those quiet moments are looking at someone's creativity and the energy that's gone into them. Am I answering this question?

[Dan Rubenstein]

Yeah, you are.

[David Yurman]

I was in love with the paintings. She was. Okay, okay.

[Dan Rubenstein]

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[David Yurman]

Well, I, I think what was happening is, this is the great. One of the great movements in, at least in America for the counterculture. People living in urban environments were going to, to upstate New York, to Vermont, to Maine. They were leaving the, the urban congestion and whatnot. There was the Whole Earth catalog, which was kind of their bible of how to, how to live in nature, how to make your own psilocybin mushroom mix, how to grow asparagus. And you know, just. It was like everything. It was, it was, you know, a force against. It was. I think Basquiat was, was, was painting and Keith Haring and this. It was just a kind of, it was a real, it was an artistic and very personal rejection of what was, what, what was going on. It was the Vietnam War. There was, the music was changing the, the. There was a throughput. That from, from the, I guess the, not the beatniks, but the, the bohemians were always there and expanding mind. Mind expansion and you know, through, through various drugs and whatnot. But Aldous Huxley and Brave New World and it was like, what are we doing? How are we living our lives? Why are we on a treadmill? Why are we, you know, marching to someone else's tune? And we, you know, tune into, turn on, drop out. That was one of the expressions. But it was clearly just, even the way you dressed. You're a beatnik, you're a hippie, you're not at the office. You know, you could identify yourself as belonging to the other team. You are definitely not wearing pinstripes. You're a Dodger fan. They look different, they eat different, they talk different. Differently there. It's a different, you know, we're the other people, we're the crazy creatives. And then when eventually we do, we did this as another, you know, parts of this that we, we do end after having about 15 years of that 12, 15 years, we start integrating because we're maturing. We start integrating back into the existing culture, back into the mainstream. And that's kind of what we did. We did about 10, 12 years with an overlap. We were just selling art galleries and very high end craft stores and some.

[Sybil Yurman]

Museums and we were living in upstate New York, right?

[David Yurman]

We were Living on a farm.

[Sybil Yurman]

We were living. I was farming with two other women. And the man that was helping us, teaching us how to do organic farming, was the advisor to Japan after the bombings of Hiroshima. And he would teach us how to. How to farm naturally. And it was the time of being vegetarians and macrobiotics. And so one day we just. One day it was like, let's move back to. Let's move. I want to move back to New York.

[Dan Rubenstein]

I can imagine.

[Sybil Yurman]

And also at the same time, I decided to go to school. I'd never gone to high school, so I had to get a high school degree in order to go to college. And I decided to. I wanted to work as a psychologist with children. And so I was doing that and I was painting the whole time. And I. Someone said to me, what do you mean you're not going to be an artist? And it was, well, I want to go. I'm going to school now. This is what I'm planning to do. I'm going to get trained at the Horney Institute. And they were like, I thought you were an artist. Why? Well, you think like an artist. You think in visual imagery. You don't speak like someone who would be doing this other profession. And he's like, well, what's your calling? And so I had to really ponder what a calling was. And finally I really lost all sense of what that meant. So I went to my father, who was a philosopher and a poet, and asked him, dad, I've lost perspective. What is a calling? And he said, well, if you were a leaf on a tree, you would fall to your natural place. And I went back to the university and I said, can I transfer out of the department? And I would like to learn how to do life drawing. And I'd like to learn how to draw better than what I'm doing with more proficiency. And they said, sure, of course, but I don't think you need to go to school, but if you want to, sure, you can be in the program. There were only 25 students at the time, and it was based on Bauhaus concept at the time. And so I did. And then I was painting and. And my work. I was selling work and I was showing in a few galleries. And I was able to help finance the business because no one would lend us any money. And it was a different way of living. Now we were back in New York. And so we made that transition. We were both no longer vegetarians on the same day. We both came home with a little bag of meat, steak and chicken. Livers to cook up individually of each other.

[Dan Rubenstein]

And so, and so in the 80s, when, you know, we see the, the company emerge under David's name for the first time. If I kind of met you guys, went back in time and met you guys at that point, what was the aspirations for the company in those early days?

[Sybil Yurman]

Not to have a company. A company wasn't the objective for us. The objective was to be able to be creative, to be able to design things, to be able to be creative, period, and have fun and sustain ourselves. Make enough, enough money to.

[David Yurman]

Stop making jewelry and go back to sculpture and painting. I had a number. This is always civil's. See what my vision was. If I could get $75,000 in one place, that it was clearly profit after taxes, I think we'd have enough money for me to go back and, and start sculpting again and have a, you know, build up enough. I was doing direct welding, so direct welded bronzes and it would be, that's what I do. And I know that number kept on getting maybe 107. I mean, I meant 175, 1.75 million. That's what I mean, that's what I was meaning.

[Dan Rubenstein]

When, when, when did you guys enter in the world of jewelry now? Like, when did you, when was the first hit that you kind of thought, okay, this is a big success, people are really reacting to it. What was that first hit where you were like, okay, maybe 1.5 million, maybe.

[Sybil Yurman]

10, maybe there was.

[David Yurman]

We, we were, first of all, we were making belt buckles. And belt buckles is specifically for craft because wearing, you know, like wide belts and carved, we still would, would paint, paint scenes on carved belts. And we were selling belts and belt buckles. That was the business, which is really weird because my father was in belt and trimmings and I clearly didn't want to do anything my father was doing. But there I was at craft, selling belts and buckles. And then I was at national boutique shows and then I had a distributor. Before I knew it, I had a three million dollar business. And I'm saying three million dollars then. And I was a just, I was a crafter and I was, I was, I wouldn't say I wasn't regular, but I would come and go as I please, or I like to think that I was doing that, but I was a slave to the business. I was filling orders and getting this right and getting castings, getting new castings, trying to get someone to fund us to get ahead of it. And it was just trying to Keep up. But we had a $3 million business before we were getting into the jewelry part. And I learned business. I learned how to write an order, how to check credit, how to work with a distributor. And I found it very, very unsatisfactory because I was chasing. But we had if. If you go on the Shark tank and today, you know, they said, well, how much business are you doing is? And someone says, $2 million. Like, whoa, $2 million. That's incredible. So our $3 million was closer to like seven or almost $10 million business.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Yeah.

[David Yurman]

And then I just didn't want. I just. I think that the bell buckle business started to fade also.

[Sybil Yurman]

We were. We were really. There was a lot of. We were baffled by a lot of it. That we would go to a craft fair or be somewhere and it would be a crowd of people to step up and buy. Whether it was the belt buckles or the sculptural jewelry that David was. Yeah, that's what was belt buckles and jewelry. And what happened was the head of the jewelry association came to us at a show and said, I'd like to offer you a space to show in New York City in our major jewelry show. Would you like to do that? And we both said, no, not really. And mainstream. And what do you do? You sell to jewelry stores and department stores? I don't think so. And he convinced us to do it. And he said, I'll protect you, I'll help you. I'll show you what to do.

[David Yurman]

Well, actually, he. They. On their own. They decided. This man's name is Mort Abelson, who's chairman, the president of. It was called the RJA Retail Jewelers association. And it was the association that was for all the retail jewelers in America. And they had this once a year show at the time. And they said, we're going to invite 11 or 12 craft jewelers to come in and show what. What this new jewelry looks like. We love it. You know, there was. There's still. People who are still making. Have viable businesses. That started. There was 1977, 1978, and they gave us a space. You know, there was. You know, just have to build a.

[Sybil Yurman]

So to answer your question, it was. It was. It was a. A pivotal moment because there we were at the show. We didn't really understand a lot, but we had real criteria. I did, because now I had joined the business. I had.

[David Yurman]

I have exception to the one thing you said, Sybil. We didn't understand a lot. Well, that's a. That's almost a given but we did have, for almost nine years, business experience. I mean, we had a $3 million buckle business with two distributors West Coast Mid. So we were. I like business. I like making money. I like producing. I like knowing that my belt buckles, we sold 5,001 year. And there was a rodeo. I can't remember who was. It was George Strait. George Strait has a David Yurman belt buckle. George Strait is a legend. He just retired, by the way. And besides singing and writing songs, he also, you know, he bulldogs. He, you know, he. He ropes. He's a real cowboy. So I, for me, people that are genuine.

[Sybil Yurman]

I don't know what people don't know. David's a cowboy. He's a cowboy. His other. His other Persona is that of straight out cowboy, and he's out Western horses.

[David Yurman]

Competitively, even at the age of 82.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Do you own. Do you own horses?

[David Yurman]

Yeah, I own. I own. Right now I'm down to two. I have two western quarter horses that. That are. One's a world champ, and the other one is just real good to ride.

[Sybil Yurman]

But David is a Rainer, and a Rainer is someone who does Western dressage.

[David Yurman]

Yeah, that's the way to say it.

[Sybil Yurman]

You know, they spin and slide and do these different things. But what I was getting at was that for us coming into this new world of dealing. Well, you asked the question, when did we realize and how did we. What was the pivotal moment that we said, wait a minute, this is interesting. This is the beginning of something bigger than we imagined. So there was a moment, and it's a very simple moment. Maybe I could say something more sophisticated, but it was a very simple moment, being at this trade show. And two women came over, one dressed very nicely and the other one kind of like a dotty woman, big glasses, covered with powder on it from her makeup. And it turns out they're looking at things, at the jewelry. And. And they. I said, well, what do you like? Which things? They said, well, we're not writing an order right now. And I said, well, all right, I can take a paper and I'll put down for you the pieces that interest you. So you could. Well, we don't want you to write an order. I said, I'll give it to you. You could take it. So you know what it is when you want to call us and ask for the pieces? And I asked, well, what's the name of the company? And the woman says, sachs. And I said, well, I spell it. S A C, H, H, H, S. And she said, no, that's not how you spell Saks? And I said, well, how do you spell it? And she said, s, A K. You know, K S. And I said, well, how do you get away with that? And she said, what do you mean? And I said, well, that's Saks Fifth Avenue's name. How do you get away with using that? And she said, we are Saks Fifth Avenue. I'm the buyer, and she's the. She's the creative chief merchandiser, chief merchant. So that was chief merchant for the store. So it's like, oh, okay.

[David Yurman]

Really? And you look like this.

[Dan Rubenstein]

And it was like a big effing deal back then.

[Sybil Yurman]

Exactly. And then two hours later, a man comes over with a team, and he's looking at things, and he says, this is interesting. Interesting, okay. And he gives me. He starts rattling off, I like this one, this and this, and I'm writing it all down. And he says, okay, I'm not placing an order now, but I'll place an order with you. And I said, okay. What? Oh, it's Bloomingdale's. And then I was like, that's a lot of. Lot of things to order. And he said, well, yeah, we're gonna place an order. And it's for more than one store. I said, oh, I don't think we have enough. We don't have enough money to fill that, to do that, to buy the materials. And he said, what are you talking about? What are you doing here? And I said, well, another store just came and placed a very. You know, it looks like they're placing a large order. And he said, who was it? And I said, it was Saks Fifth Avenue. And he said, really? And he said, really? And I said, well, we can't do this unless you could give us the money to buy the materials. So he said, you mean you want cash before delivery? Yeah. And he said, well, either you're very smart or really naively stupid. So I said, well, what do you want to do? And I was a little. You know, I didn't know what to do. And he said, you know what? I want the goods, so I'm gonna give you the money. And I said, okay. And then this is where the pivotal beginning was. They had the work, and at first, it didn't sell very well. I called him after four weeks to find out how it was going. And he said, it's not doing very well. You better come over here and take a look at this, or you're out. So we went to the Bloomingdale's. I took a look. I understood what was happening.

[David Yurman]

Yeah. You understood what was selling, what was.

[Sybil Yurman]

Selling and what wasn't. And I understood how we needed to make a change and what to do. And they may love all the purples and pinks and everything, but they really wanted black and pearl jewelry or whatever it was we were doing at the time. So then what happened was we went to. We decided to take him out to lunch. They told. Someone told us, you have to take them out to lunch. So we said, where? And they said, you go to the Four Seasons. Since they sit around the fountain, it was like, oh, my. Go around the pool. Oh, my God.

[David Yurman]

Really?

[Sybil Yurman]

Okay. Do we even know where that is? Okay, yeah, we can do that.

[David Yurman]

We're saying, do we pay for it or do they pay for it?

[Sybil Yurman]

So they said, you know, you have to give them. You have to give them a kickback. And was. What was that? Well, you have to give them some money back to warrant this. And it was like, really? So David got an envelope, he put the money into it, and we went there, and we're having this lunch, and the man says, well, what do you want? And so, well, we'd like you to place some orders. And he said, well, all right. And then he said, okay. And David then starts trying to give this man this envelope.

[David Yurman]

Well, I was fumbling around, you know, you have to pull this thing out of your pocket. And I have a hard time giving. Should I give him a tip before, a tip after? So I'm totally unfamiliar what to do, and I pull this thing out, and it drops on the floor. And now I'm bending over, you know, awkwardly under the table, and the head buyer says, david, what the hell are you doing? I'm getting an envelope. What envelope? You dropped an envelope? Yes, it's for you. Oh, no, no, no, no. First of all, that's not how you do it. Number one. But you don't have to give me an envelope. Well, I, I. The guys in the jewelry industry said, that's how it works. He said, no, no, no, no. They have what everyone else has. I can only get this from you. So you don't have to do anything special, but deliver quality on time and work with us.

[Sybil Yurman]

And he then tells us, and then he says, what do you guys want? And we said, well, we'd like you to fill back in on the order. And we're thinking it's one store, but he places an order for 17 stores.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Oh, gosh.

[Sybil Yurman]

And then Saks places an order for all their stores. And then it's like, oh, my God, how Do we get the money for this? What do we do? And that was like the beginning of realizing there was going to. That there were things that were going to happen and how are we going to do this? And people all along the way were fantastic. To us, it was very rare that someone wasn't. How to get credit from a caster, how to learn how to. To. To include other people into the vision.

[David Yurman]

Something that we're missing here in this. I can't remember if it's the Bloomingdale's or Saks, because they were big, chunky orders. I said, we should not be selling too much of the same. We had a broad. We had. Our selection was incredibly broad. And that. That was an issue which actually Evan, our son, who's president, chief creative, has changed. So we weren't showing 27 collections. Now we're showing, like nine collections, seven collections. So we were showing 27. I said, there's enough here that we can say, now this style is really. Is better in this. And so we kind of segmented it. And I don't know if it's Bloomingdale's or Saks. I think it was Saks. We said, we're only going to sell five. We're only going to sell three stories stores, and we want seven. I said, let's try three. We don't have the capital to do this. Let's see how these three work. One's the Midwest, one's out in the coast, and one's in the New York flagship. And I think we cut Bloomingdale's back also. And people say, are you insane? You tell him, don't order for these. I mean, it's money. I said, yeah, it's money, but it's one, I don't think we can deliver it. Two, I think that it's not a smart thing to do. Didn't feel right. And mostly we did things that if it didn't feel right, we said, we're not going to do. Could have too much good.

[Sybil Yurman]

And you have to remember, at the time, things were segmented. So we took a model that we used in the craft world, because we were just selling our work in the craft world under David's name. It used to be, for a short while, both of our names, but I ran into difficulties with the gallery that was selling my work, and I had to make a choice. So my name came off of it, off of the company, and David was the main force there at the time of designing. And so what happened was I forgot what I was going to say.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Was segmented at the time.

[David Yurman]

Well, we. We sold the department stores and specialty stores. We set up a criteria that you have. You must. It was a contract. They never had a contract from a jeweler. And the contract said that this is how you have to show our work. It has to be one contiguous case. It has to have our name in the showcase in two places. We supply the name and the fixtures have to be a certain shape or form or whatever. And we have to work that out, color checked. We work that out together. And they were like, I don't think we can do this.

[Sybil Yurman]

And I had written a. I wrote a.

[David Yurman]

A sociological paper on taking your pigs to market. And that basically it said that we were. We were captive going to craft fairs. And they had rules. Sometimes they took a percentage of everything you sold, and then they paid you later, or they didn't pay you. Paid you really late and like two. Two months later. And you can't survive like that. You know, we were doing 30, 40 craft shows a year, and you kind of felt like you were working for the man. And one of the things about the whole hippie, you know, leaving the city and whatnot, being responsible for your food and garden and living your life that you were. And living it just to work. Although we were. That you had a different lifestyle, that things were much more appropriate and you weren't just trying to build a business, which later. That's what we were trying.

[Dan Rubenstein]

You were building a brand.

[David Yurman]

We were. We really were.

[Dan Rubenstein]

The book details some of the more legendary models and actors that you guys have. Have that have worn your work, and you've had them in campaigns. So my selfish question is, what is Kate Moss like?

[David Yurman]

Oh, so you think of all the models you'd really like to know. Kate.

[Dan Rubenstein]

I'm picking Kate for. I mean, why would you pick an embarrassment of riches? But let's. I was like, who's. Who's. You know.

[David Yurman]

Okay, good choice. Good choice. I gotta tell you, you know, I've heard stories about Kate. You know, she's so fussy. She'll come when she wants to arrive. None of that's true. She's on set at sunup. She's there. She. She works tirelessly. She has the ability to. To. To perform in front of the. The camera. They would say the camera loves her. She. She's just a beautiful soul. She's. She's unbelievably empathic, compassionate, funny, outrageous. Party girl, you know, two in the morning. Let's go. I don't know where she gets the energy. She's got a great resiliency. And I never feel like I'm talking to a star. I always feel that she's. You know, when she's. When you're in a room with Kate and you're having a conversation, eyes lock, you're the only person in the room, she's talking to you. She's connected. And then, boom, she's off to another. You know, I'm not saying she's a butterfly, but she's. When she's there, she's absolutely a hundred percent there. So there's that incredible intimacy that you get from a human being that's incredibly genuine. And she's. She's just. She's increasing A genuine live wire. Incredibly talented.

[Dan Rubenstein]

And when someone reads this book cover to cover, and they put it down, like, what would you want that one thing to take away from this experience? To really know about the both of you?

[David Yurman]

You know, here we are. Sybil's a runaway. I'm a hitchhiker. Dyslexic, major. ADD flipping from this to that, that the only thing that kept us together and focused was the love and passion of art. It's something that fed us. We did what we want. We went to pleasure, not to excessive pleasure. We went to. We went to. I'm very disciplined, you know, I know what I have to do, and I do it. I was a track runner. I. I was almost going to the Olympics, but I. I pulled up with a. With a knee issue. I was focused, focused, focused. I was. And being ADD adhd, I was just add. Totally distracted about things. But when you're working on a painting and when you're working on a sculpture, you. You realize that that feeds you in a way like nothing else can feed you other than loving someone, including loving yourself. And I think the act of art is love. And if you can find something that you love, you know, they say you never work a day again in your life. You love to do it. When are you retiring? Retiring from what? From something that I love. Why would I stop doing something that I love? So. So if the takeaway is for me, one is the partnership that Sybil and I have, the collaboration, by the way, collaboration is messy. It's like. No, you're wrong. You know, it's like there are absolutes that get thrown out, but, you know, underneath it, you. You love each other. And you. We have a lot of similar things that are the same, but we have a lot of things that aren't the same. And the. And that friction is part of love. You know, we never go to sleep angry. We. We understand. Okay, let's work it out later. We don't. We don't agree. It's. It's. Hey, that's life. But we know we love each other, you know, and I know that. That that's it. This didn't happen with one person.

[Dan Rubenstein]

And as the years went on, has your sort of creative process shifted or changed, or is it kind of the same as it ever was?

[David Yurman]

Well, it. The same part as it ever was. As it ever was. That's the Talking Heads. The. I sketch all the time, and I'm. And I'll have periods where I won't. But then I go back and I look at my book and I start sketching again. So the. The river that runs through. Through this. What Sybil likes to say is, is this creative kind of. It's like a. It's a log, you know, and one thing leads to the next. And I'm. I'm in the world looking at technologies, and I said, what if we use this and technologies from. From anywhere in the world? You know, nano coatings. And I love to see what. What's happening. The. The. The fact that we can take models in 3D CAD computer and we can. Can adjust them in a way that you can almost feel like you're manipulating clay. It's that moldable because you become familiar with the technologies and that you could reproduce things by 22% larger or 13.5% smaller. And you can do carvings with Zbrush rather than cutting into. And then you can get someone who's an engraver that's an artist engraver, does a magnificent work. And now I see he's in our shop. And I said, yakov, what are you doing? He said, well, I'm doing Zbrush. I said that. He said, it's better, it's quick, it's fast. I take it out. I do clean up with. With the carving knives. So I'm still in the shop, and I'm inspired by. By hands on. And I'm inspired by the ability of what technology can do, not just replicating, but enlarging and shrinking and actually, you know, from a block of imaginary clay make a piece. So I'm still working there. Our sun clearly is taking the business has gotten to a size that the scale has to be dealt with. You can't do it like craft shows. So you have to prepare six months out, two years. We're two years planned out for certain basics. And then we have this. About 20% of production is Pronto Moto which could be six months. It's online, but for the most part, we're almost. We're a year and a half out supply lines and whatnot. And it's. It's a big business. It's, I think, counting the jewelers and the hands in the world were about easy. 4000 people are involved in making their livings off our creativity, and we have 50, 60 stores and still building.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Well, yeah. That brings me to my next question. You guys have had men's collections for. For some time, but it's. It's, you know, it's growing. And how is that concept of just jewelry for men evolved from your point of view? How is it evolving? What is that trajectory like?

[David Yurman]

Well, I think the trajectory is that men are much more comfortable wearing jewelry. And I think that the way we make jewelry, I can tell you that I wear a bracelet. There it is. I wear. Let's see where I wear a new ring just to see how it fits. And I have an issue somewhere on an edge. I wear our watch. And I think the designer, the head designer, Evan, is the design director, but there is someone that's in the weeds doing the designs. Loves to make jewelry. He's a RISD student from way back, and he's excellent. And Evan knows how to work with him. So I'm a designer. Evan's a design director, but also Evan. I get into the weeds.

[Sybil Yurman]

Also. Evan works on the original drawings as well.

[David Yurman]

Oh, yeah. But Evan brings in a concept. He said, this is the concept, you know, I want to bring in. I want to go to Arizona. I want to. I want this. I want Chewy to look like Arizona. So let's fly out to Arizona, spend, you know, three, four days out there, five days. And let's. Let's get. Get a sense. He's actually a very big thinker. He's fearless, and he has great aesthetics. And. And then. So he. That. He. That became his business. He. He runs that. I just have slight oversight, but I don't actually. I don't even have veto power.

[Sybil Yurman]

When Evan was young, this was another thing. When Evan was young and he wanted to. He loves stones, always has. He would go on trips out to Arizona and different.

[David Yurman]

The Tucson.

[Sybil Yurman]

The Tucson show, and meet gem collectors, these men. And he would end up in a trailer somewhere trying to negotiate for a specific specimen that he had heard this person had. And then he would be able to buy it and bring it back. And we set up in our loft a lapidary system for Evan, and he would cut those opals and stones on his own. So he always has had a love for stones. He has an extraordinary mineral collection that is at the Museum of Natural History. And he's now developing something new, which I'm not going to talk about if you ever want to. I'm sure he's someone that he does extraordinary. He has extraordinary things. But your question is he's been doing this, I think his whole life and it's a love of his and it's a passion and he does his own collections now even of. Of, you know. You asking about high jewelry.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Yeah, I was going to say, you know, high jewelry. You guys had your first high jewelry collection in 2010, which is kind of a world unto itself.

[David Yurman]

Yes.

[Dan Rubenstein]

As you guys are as true artists, you know, moving into that. That echelon of probably a lot of sharp elbows too in that world. What was that like? Do you kind of kind of having that first big collection. It's been, it's been, you know, almost 15 years now. But what was that like for you guys to see that first high jewelry collection?

[David Yurman]

Well, I could say first of all that the majority of the pieces were Evans. So it was proud father, proud mother. It was in Em Basel at the. At a vernissage above the three the Three Kings Fancy hotel. And I was mostly was stone centric. He was just became an aficionado of beautifully cut stones. He'd often buy stone to, I would say not often, almost all the time. He'd recut them. So he looked for value. He said this, yeah, looks sort of nice and no, no, no, it's a great stone, Dad. I said, I don't know, it's sort of dead spots. He's. Yeah, it's not cut right. And he partnered with people on buying stones who knew more about sapphires than he would ever know. So he was very collaborative and he loves learning. Yeah. And he wants to do it away from us because we have more than big shoes. We have big mouths and big brains and we share too much of what we feel it should be. And it's like, hey, who's telling you what to do? When you opened your buckle business, who was telling you how to market your work to Neiman Sachs or not? It's real difficult not to want to. Oh, I know you're going to make that. I did. I went down the road. It's stupid. Don't do that. You know, but he had to find out for himself. And he's very, he's a smart cookie. He really is. And, and I think we probably Hover or we were hovering over him more than we should have. But he made an incredibly beautiful, innovative 7 or 8, 10 years of. Of high jewelry and things that I would look at and if I didn't know who did it, because it. It's not particularly signature. It's exploratory. It's fun. It's setting sapphires and rubies and opals. Tiny opals in. In aluminum. What the. And aluminum. Yeah. You make big things and gems set into aluminum, and they're very light, you know, so he. He just. He got it, and he partners with the best in the business. He's very likable. He's very curious. He's very funny. He's a keeper.

[Dan Rubenstein]

And what are your hopes for the future for David Yurman? The brand? It took you in a time machine, and I brought you 100 years in the future. What would you hope to see?

[Sybil Yurman]

I know. I don't. Yeah, I don't know that I could answer. What would I hope to see? Oh, that people were. Do you know that there was still the joy and pleasure that people. Customers get in experiencing our jewelry, experiencing this, having the store experiencing that. There's still that element of pleasure and fun that takes place in our stores.

[Dan Rubenstein]

And, Sybil, I was wondering, can you describe David in three words? If you have to describe David in three words, what would those three words be?

[Sybil Yurman]

He's curious. There's a delight. He takes delight in the world and in people. He's a great dancer.

[Dan Rubenstein]

And a dancer. Okay. I was gonna go with cowboy, but. Okay. Dancer. That works. David dancing cowboy. Okay. Why not? David, if you had to describe Sybil in three words, what would you say?

[David Yurman]

I would say compassionate, beautiful, great dancer.

[Dan Rubenstein]

Thank you to my guests Cybill and David Yurman, as well as to everyone at Phaidon for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don't forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, the Grand Tourist [e-mail] and follow me on Instagram DanRubenstein. And don't forget to follow the Grand Tourist on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. And leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next time.

[Sybil Yurman]

Sa.