C (2:28)

This is good. Yes.

A (2:29)

Okay. Hi, everyone. I, Adeshawa Josh.

C (2:32)

And I'm Jane Isa.

A (2:33)

And welcome to the Grannies Podcast. Well, we. First of all, before we get into today's show, we would like to say thank you to all of our supporters. Thank you for supporting us. Thank you for watching us. Thank you for telling a friend, a

C (2:46)

family, a ho, and your grandchildren.

A (2:49)

So this episode Happy, we're going to be talking about something essential, something a lot of people have been asking us to discuss, actually, as technology reshapes, how Family communicate. This episode explores the widening gap between generations, particularly for grandmothers whose communication styles have been disrupted or replaced. Do you feel that way? So we're going to be talking about the impact of technology on relationships, especially family, the emotional impacts of changing communication styles, how older and younger generations can better understand each other. And without further ado, there is one person who is going to help us to understand what we can do and

C (3:34)

do it better, do it, and do it more happily.

A (3:37)

Okay. And so let's bring in our very special guest. Ladies and gentlemen, please put your hands together.

C (3:44)

Come on. Jonathan.

A (3:45)

Jonathan Dogecon. Thank you. You can drag your seat in. Yes, yes. Oh, wow. All we're so excited.

C (3:58)

Hello, sweetheart.

A (3:59)

Here. How are you?

B (4:01)

Good. How are you?

A (4:02)

I'm very well, thank you. Thank you so much for honoring our invitation.

B (4:05)

Thank you so much for inviting me.

A (4:07)

Okay. Would you. I. I don't know if I did justice to your last name. So you want to say your name to tell. Tell Avi what's more about you.

B (4:13)

I'm Jonathan Dolgen Khan. I'm 11 years old and I. I go to Lower Manhattan Community Middle School.

A (4:24)

That's wonderful. And you're also a New Yorker.

B (4:26)

And. And I'm born and raised in New York.

A (4:28)

That's wonderful. Okay, first of all, I want to quickly throw this great question to Granny Jane. You're pretty much tech savvy yourself.

C (4:39)

Yes.

A (4:40)

Back in the mid-80s, you. You were one of the first women in publishing to even. To even try to use software. And all of that.

C (4:48)

It was. It was home Software. The first Apple Plus 24K. And they were selling software in little baggies. There was no packaging. And I thought, here's the market. I got a wonderful programmer, and with no memory, 24k on an Apple Plus. We did all kinds of great software. And guess what? There was no market for it. There was no installed base. We watched IBM come in with its desktop. And at some point I said to my boss, I'm going to give us. It wasn't working because we couldn't get. There were no distribution and there were no people in store base. I said, let me do an analysis the way we pay a consultant.

A (5:33)

Yes.

C (5:34)

So I did it and I gave it to him and he read it and he said, you want me to fire you? And I said, well, this isn't working. We'll figure out something else.

A (5:43)

And this was in the 80s, a

C (5:44)

couple of years later, 1984.

A (5:46)

So that was like a year after Internet was invented.

C (5:49)

This was before the Internet. It had been long invented. This was just basically Apple TVs with no much communication. And we used the first Apple TV I had. The programs were on a tape cassette on Apple plus. Apple plus. Thank you. Yeah, so I thought I was very smart and I thought I knew everything. That was 45 years ago. And let me tell you, I know nothing now. Here's the one who knows everything.

B (6:25)

Thank you.

A (6:27)

So what would you say? I mean you're just 11 years old. I wanted her to just establish some of the pros and cons of having technology, having things like the phone, having emails, to. To be able to communicate. What would you say are the pros and cons of. Of the. Of technology on communication amongst families and other relationships in general?

C (6:53)

We're both going to answer that question. Yes, I would say there are pros. There are a lot of pros. The con is it doesn't substitute for sitting together, but particularly for me, particularly during COVID when we couldn't be in the same room. It was a very important way of getting together. And I run a webinar for grannies and we used to talk about what games we could play with a two year old on Zoom or Facetime. And everybody was very innovative because we had to be. We had to figure out a way to keep little ones interested in talking to us on the screen. I have a friend who had a whole protocol of a coloring book. They read aloud to each other.

A (7:49)

Wow.

C (7:50)

One of the women had her grand baby on the bed in the other house jumping up and down and she would clap if it didn't fall off the bed. So that was my experience, but that's a while ago. What's your experience, Jonathan?

B (8:08)

So I mean tech as a whole, an incredible pro. Is that like mean it allows you to communicate anywhere? Pretty much anywhere where you're not limited to one specific room of the house and a sibling or family member or can interrupt it by just picking up the phone. Another pro is that it like it allows you to take your TV or your video game console anywhere and do that wherever you find yourself. But I mean a con is, and I mean like for relationships, a pro is that it allows you like if you physically can't see someone if they're like in another state, like your grandma, parents, possibly it allows you to interact and connect with them. It's not, it's not a substitute for in person chat, but it's just helpful when in person chat is. Is out of the picture.

A (9:09)

What was it like back in your day with your. I know that you didn't meet your grandparents.

C (9:15)

But I didn't have. My grandparents had both died before I was born, so I didn't have grandparents.

A (9:20)

Was there a need to write letters because somebody was far away, or did you guys have some sort of communal living, that having technology that to find someone who was away was not necessary?

C (9:33)

I think no. And I, when we lived in Washington, my, my mother's sisters were my family because she had raised them. Their parents had died in the flu epidemic of 1918. And I loved those aunts. They were every, they were like grandparents. I loved them. And when we lived in Washington D.C. during the war, they would come to visit. They lived in the Bronx, they would come to visit sometimes. And when they would come, my life, the lights would go on in my life. Oh, we talk every morning. We FaceTime every morning. And the whole technology has made it easier because the other cousins live, don't live in New York. But the, the notion of being able to dial up anytime. My grandson Benjamin, who's graduating from college in a month, he, he faced we, he and I FaceTime every Monday. And when he was in Europe in Prague for his junior year, he FaceTimed with me outside so that I could see the buildings. So, you know, I mean it's wonderful. I don't think it's destroyed families, but I think families I find as a grandparent that my grant, my, my kids and my grandkids are very busy, you're very busy. And they don't have all the time in the world for me. And I, we worry about these. We all. Oh, I don't, they don't love me. Whatever, whatever. The fact is they have their lives and we want them to have, we want you to have your lives and your parents to have your lives and we want you to be. Do things after school every day. Could you have one day with me?

B (11:20)

You know?

C (11:21)

Okay, so it goes.

A (11:23)

So Jonathan, what kind of Technology Apart from FaceTime does your grandparents use? And what is the best way apart from FaceTime have you found that was easy for them to communicate with you?

B (11:40)

So my grandparents, both of them have phones and my grandmother has an iPad from which she does all. From which she likes tech savvy.

A (11:52)

She knows how to use an iPad.

B (11:55)

She calls me up at least once a month like I broke my mail app.

C (12:01)

I did that today.

B (12:05)

Somehow, Somehow it was only showing her messages from 10 years ago.

A (12:09)

From 10 years ago?

B (12:10)

I don't know 10 years ago. That's an exaggeration. But like year old years old message.

C (12:16)

Yes.

A (12:16)

Has There been any time your grandparents were so frustrated with the technology. They're. What was the frustration and how did you help them solve it?

B (12:27)

One time. This is an example. My grandpa recently, at my suggestion, he got an Apple TV box and he was setting it up. I told him to wait, that he should wait, but he set it up and he was like, the light is blue. How do I get to it? And I'm like, press the TV input button. And on the FIOS remote, and he's like, what button is the tv? TV input button. When he. On his other tv, he uses it all the time. I meant, I mean, like, it's. It's just like so many buttons. There's like, which one do I press? TV input. What'd that look like? What's a symbol?

C (13:13)

Yes. And I want to put it in a word here.

A (13:16)

Go on, go on.

C (13:17)

Grandpa is one of the top pediatric surgeons in the country. We're talking about education and expertise at the very top. Right. And he's saying, where's the blue button? And that's how we all feel very often.

A (13:35)

Talk to me more about that because again, you are super tech savvy. You got into. You even wrapped your head around what software was in the 80s. And somehow you said earlier that you feel some sense of disconnect with this sort of technology and the way technology is being presented as very less user friendly and all of that.

C (14:01)

Jonathan has a very good answer for that because we talked about this.

A (14:04)

Yes.

C (14:04)

How come they're changing it all the time?

A (14:06)

Yeah.

C (14:06)

Jonathan.

A (14:07)

So I want to go. I'll just hold that thought. But I wanted to hear from you. What, what did this. Why do you think this. What? Why? There's a lot of disconnect with, perhaps, should I say the user interface of some of these technologies.

C (14:21)

Absolutely.

A (14:22)

And makes grandparents sometimes feel very helpless.

C (14:27)

Yes.

A (14:27)

And here's the smartest of grandparents.

C (14:29)

Yes. And here's it. It joins two issues.

A (14:32)

Okay.

C (14:33)

One is, we're old and the world is passing us by. Other is, I can't find that button. Now, when somebody like grandpa or I say, I can't find the button, that doesn't mean, oh, where's the button? It means I'm a competent person.

B (14:50)

Yeah.

C (14:50)

And I know things. Why are they making it so hard for me? And today I was trying to submit my taxes because it's, it's tax season. And I got to. I got to one point where I almost. I was doing it, and then the whole thing fell apart. And I had told my son and he said, mom, why are you doing this? Get the accountant to do it. And, yes, I can do that, but I ought to be able to do it. I know how this world works, and all of a sudden, this world changes. They're not looking out for me. They're not looking out for the user. And when I was in the software business in the 80s, our chief financial officer at Harper's, very tall guy with black shoes, very commanding, he said to me, jane, if the user is having trouble, it's your fault, not the user. Yes. And I. That became kind of the banner of my life in computers. And now I see it's to every. Every website has a different. Completely different design, and they're asking to confirm who I am. And sometimes the number comes through and sometimes it doesn't. It is just. It's supposed to be very fast, but for me, it's very slow because they're asking me all these things, and as you can hear from my voice, I get frustrated.

A (16:23)

Jonathan, you want to jump in on this. Why do they change everything? What's going on with user interface and the way it makes grannies feel like they're incompetent? I mean, these are some of the smartest people on earth.

B (16:34)

So, number one, you're not incompetent. You just. You just. You. You. Your brains just, like, you're not hardwired into, like, how tech works. And for Granny Jane's problem, I have an analogy that it's like a. It's like house. It's like architecture. If you built a house, like the way you built a house, and its design is very different from the way you would build a house now, because both design shifts and the tools that use it shift. Like houses in the 1800s, they were heated by wood, and now some houses heated by geothermal. And it just. And the changing design both allows for it to look better and for more tools to be incorporated. Like, for example, the original iPhone had no app store.

C (17:41)

Right?

B (17:42)

So. And look, and now there are over there, like, 10 million or there are millions of apps available on the app store.

C (17:52)

Yes. And I want to kill them.

B (17:58)

And the changing design allows for, like, much better tools and a better and cleaner design.

A (18:09)

But when the design is not. When the designer does not take into consideration the people they're designing for. The problem we're having here is that all the people. It's like when they're designing these tools, they're not thinking of people like your grandparents or Granny Jane. And guess what? Granny Jane and company will be. There will be more of Granny Janes in this country and elsewhere in the next five years. So we're at a point where whoever is designing these tools need to think about people like her. There are times that I also, for example, I don't use an iPad. I don't have MacBook because I think it's just unnecessarily too much for me.

B (19:05)

Yeah.

A (19:06)

So I bought it and this was in 2017. I bought it and I tried to use it for two months. And if. Because all my life my brain was being wired with Microsoft. I've used Windows laptops and I tried to change the Mac because it was a fanciest thing to do. Everybody just had a Mac and I couldn't do it. And trust me, I have one of the sharpest brains in the world and I didn't even bother to try. I took it back to the store, took my money back, and I stayed with my Microsoft. I was, I'm, I'm staying with Windows, you know, so that's me. God help me. I don't know what's coming. You're 40 years old and I'm. Yeah, and I'm 40. So I don't know what's going to come in the next 50 years. I have to be ready. But my point is sometimes they make it too hard for people to use. And that to Granny Jane's point, it's, if you are making it too hard for people to use to navigate, what's the point to the design?

B (20:03)

So. Oh, I mean, it's. Your point is very valid. I mean, that's a big issue. It's just if I think that the designers and the programmers, for one, they often choose function over form. Like they, they, they would rather make it harder to use and be more useful than easier.

C (20:30)

Such an interesting go on. I'm sorry, That's a wonderful way of saying it.

B (20:35)

Also, I mean, they, I think like on a deeper level, they might assume that everyone is the same. Everyone who uses the tool is the same as them. Like they, they're also designers and programmers and they get what the button does, but they don't realize that lot of people don't know what the button does,

C (20:58)

don't know what this is. If I could have print out in very large type and tape it to my computer don't know what the button does, I think I'd feel better because I'm not the, Because I'm not the only one who doesn't know. So I have a, I have an idea for a piece of soft for an app and it's called Jonathan or it could be called Grandchild. And it takes. This app has adapted the hundred most popular websites that older people use so that each, so that it makes it easy for me to navigate that website every 100 different ones. Which would be a program. Could I do that?

B (21:47)

You could probably vibe code it.

C (21:49)

I could what?

B (21:50)

Vibe code?

C (21:52)

Yeah.

B (21:53)

So vibe coding is when you use artificial intelligence to write code for you. And that, that's been like a very growing field as AI becomes much faster, er, and more skilled. Like instead of like high, instead of like what Granny Jane did in the 80s, like have a programmer for who, like, I mean the programmer is going to be like a little bit slow. I mean they're a human after all. You could just go, claude, make me this app. And then Claude goes, I got you, bro. And it just goes, here you go, here's an app. Don't. And I mean, and the code, like, it might, it might be like written weirdly, but it's an app.

C (22:39)

Wow. Would you do that?

A (22:41)

You.

C (22:41)

That's wonderful. So, you know, I've been doing various things this week and people have said to me, go to AI.

B (22:50)

Yeah.

C (22:50)

And I, I have ChatGPT because I'm a writer and I was using it, but it sounds as if I could go to AI for a lot more.

B (23:00)

So yeah, AI, it's, it can like interpret large quantities of data and like get you a result. I mean generative AI, I mean like SORA just got shut down, but it can make you like video O's and images is, it can like write text and it can, it's like if you ingest like all the world's like books and apps and websites which they've done on. But if you ingest that and you just have one large common knowledge, I mean that's very, and it can be very helpful, but it's, it's a double edged sword. It can be very helpful. But like it, the generative part especially, it can make it like scams and it can deceive people. Oh, I mean like here's an example, like with the AI video, someone could type into, a malicious person could type in like, make me a video of one of a grandchild asking for, saying that they're in jail and they need money for bail and then send it to the grandparents. And I mean like it happens. Yeah, it happens a lot. And the grandparents are like, oh no, my grandchild's in jail. And I mean, one piece of advice for this is always contact your grandchildren. If they ask you for money and go like, hey, are you actually asking me for money? And also we just all have to have our guard up. Always like mean assume like a video is like fake until proven real.

A (24:45)

Oh my God, I have just been nodding my head because oh my God, we're having such an advanced conversation about this.

C (24:52)

Well, this is, but this is key. There's, I think I have discovered I, I, I still use Facebook but I know it's very old fashioned and there's a new genre of Facebook writing. It's all yes, you can tell by the tone, which is kind of friendly but certainly not real and repetitious and very long. The old Facebook posts were as long as maybe a screen max. They go on and on and on. And I, I don't know for sure but I'm to going shh. I haven't verified it but they're clearly AI.

B (25:27)

I mean like one way to trick is like look at their profile and if they like have a ton of posts like this or if they have posts that seems like something that a human would do, they have like a life kind of. Or if it's just like mindless post after mindless post after mindless post like that then you can probably assume it's AI and download it so your algorithm knows. Hey, I don't want this stuff.

A (25:54)

I wanted to quickly ask Rennie Jane what you would say the biggest adjustment you've made with the way you communicate due to technology when all this the first one that you had to do.

C (26:08)

Well, I always the biggest change is I still use Word because that's what I learned. I don't much care for Google Docs because it doesn't seem so firm.

A (26:25)

That's why I haven't shared anything of

C (26:27)

Google Docs with you other than that I use the computer all the, I spend too much time scrolling and that is I live alone, I'm a busy woman, but I have a lot of time alone and I find my phone in my hand when it shouldn't be. How do I deal with that?

B (26:47)

So I mean these apps, they're designed to be addictive. That makes, they are designed for you just to scroll and scroll and scroll because that makes the, that makes the app designers money. And I mean like a way is like there's a way on your phone to set like a limit where like I also like, I suggest having like someone else like a relative or a very close friend do it because if you, you know the password you and

C (27:14)

be like, oh my God, that's it.

B (27:15)

My 45 minutes of scrolling today are up. Let me just type in the password, get myself some more. Yes. No, you just give it to like your like a friend or a colleague

C (27:26)

or one of your grandparents.

B (27:28)

Yeah. Or like, like one of your like. Yeah, family member, very close friend and, or, or you just like pick a random one and. But I suggest like giving it to someone so that like you're just stuck. It just stop. Helps you.

C (27:43)

Oh, thank you, that's very helpful. I don't want to do that. I want to scroll. How do you deal with it?

B (27:51)

So I don't scroll. Number one.

A (27:53)

You don't scroll?

B (27:54)

Nope.

A (27:56)

How, how do you not scroll?

B (27:59)

So I watch long form YouTube videos for one and like all. And I, instead of scrolling I see like if like in the YouTube homepage they're like shorts and if there's a short that like it's, it looks like appropriate or something and I just watch that short and I watch the short by people like, I like because I mean an issue that I've encountered is like you have no control over what you're gonna see. So you can be shown like inappropriate things or like things that like you don't want to see.

C (28:32)

You bet.

B (28:33)

So by watching channels that I like, I just. By watching channels, I know they're good, I just, I shield myself from that.

C (28:44)

That's good.

B (28:44)

And I mean if your attention span is too short for these like 10 minute, 20 minute videos from scrolling. And to be honest, I watch it 2x speed.

C (28:56)

Oh, right. Well, you think it's 3x speed, so.

A (29:01)

Oh my God, we're going down to Rabbit hole. And I love it. And again, I want, I want us to take this conversation a little bit forward, or shall I say back to communicating with grandparents. There are some grandparents, both of you are very savvy. There are some grandparents who are absolutely smart, but they're just not tech savvy. Yeah. And their grandchildren are having issues staying in touch with them.

C (29:32)

Yes.

A (29:32)

And the grandparents are feeling frustrated with their inability to communicate. Yes. And they are used to their own old ways of communication, which is writing. If their grandkids don't write them, they're in. They go crazy. They start saying things like they don't. They start thinking they're not loved.

C (29:52)

I wanna, I wanna add to that.

A (29:53)

Okay.

C (29:54)

Thank you notes. One of the issues I hear about on my webinar and from older grandparents is I give my grandchildren presents and don't get a thank you note. Do you write thank you notes? Tell the truth.

B (30:08)

So I, I personally, I Don't like thank you notes. I just make it very clear to my grandparents. I'm like, thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. Like, this is great. I love it.

C (30:20)

Like, do you send that note or you see it when you see them?

B (30:24)

Well, I mean, like, I. They like, presented to me, like, in person. So, like, I tell them that when they give it to me. And I mean that just like, allow. And to be honest, like, thank you notes. Like, it's kind of like slow.

C (30:37)

Oh.

B (30:37)

I mean, you have to, like, write. I did independently. Where like I say. And I mean, it can be even like, more intimate if you're like. If you're like, thank you so much, nanny. And like, hug the.

C (30:50)

That.

B (30:50)

That's like equal to or better than a thank you note.

C (30:53)

But yes. And what I have found is the intermediate is texting.

B (30:58)

Yeah.

C (30:59)

So I, for instance, I have four grandchildren. Two of them like it. They will take my wordle. I send them wordle every day.

B (31:06)

Oh, yeah? Yeah.

C (31:07)

And so I wrote I love you, and they write back, I love you, grandma. That's all I need for a day.

B (31:14)

Yeah.

C (31:14)

And now the. I have four. Two of them do it, Two of them like it, two of them. I asked and they said no, I don't really do wordle. So I send them. But I'm more in touch with the grandchildren whom I. Who will allow me to text them.

B (31:27)

Yeah. It's like, have a shared point, something that you love. Like, meaning, like, if you, if you. And if you and. And like, your grandchild are really into baseball, all and like the same team. You're like, the Yankees are like, performing great right now. I mean, like, me and my grandpa, like, we. He's a big Yankees fan and my family is too. And we watch the. And we're. We're probably watching the same, like, the. If I'm watching the game, he's probably watching the game. So, like, if something big is happening, I'm calling him and like, yo, Poppy, the Yankees are popping off.

C (32:07)

That's great.

A (32:08)

Isn't that grateful? But there, you know, I. So I want us to help grandparents and grandkids who don't have the kind of connection both of you have, you to your grandpa and you to your grandchildren, just because there is this. They're experiencing the cons of.

C (32:26)

Yes.

A (32:27)

Of technology.

C (32:29)

Well, here's something I say to the grandparents in my. Always in the web, in the webinar and elsewhere. They love us even if they don't answer our text. Yeah, they're busy. The phone rings, whatever they gotta go. Your generation, you're busy every minute of the day. And so, and, and I, I, I find when I, when I don't hear from my, some of mine, I think, oh, they don't love me. And then I remember how much I love them and how much they love me. And that isn't, you can't calculate that on your phone. When they're little, they come and run and hug you. And then when they're older, they look up from their computer and say, hi, grandma, that's enough. And they love us. And the thank you note thing is that my generation, we were forced to write thank you notes. It turns out that in the next generations, they're not doing it. They're calling, they're hugging. And we as grandparents have to understand that the new way of communicating doesn't mean lack of love. It means a new way of communicating, period. And it's so important.

A (33:42)

Jonathan, you know, how would you walk around a situation where your grandparents are not tech savvy?

B (33:52)

So I mean, like, if, and they're

A (33:56)

not in the city, so how would you.

B (33:59)

Yeah, so for one example is like calling someone if they have a landline, they can still call your cell phone and you still can still call their cell phone and their landline rather, so it. Allow it. You may have to like, you step like a generation back.

C (34:19)

Yes.

B (34:20)

Hack. For example, like, like, you may have to like, call their landline instead of like facetiming. And you might have to like, call a specific time so they're there, but you're still, it still allows you to like, find a way to interact with them or if, if they're, if they can't do that mean, like, you could use snail mail. I mean, even though it's that. Sorry, snail mail.

A (34:51)

Can you tell our audience what is snail.

B (34:53)

Snail mail is the U.S. postal Service.

C (34:57)

Okay. And this is what happened two weeks ago. My grandson, who's graduating from college, was in New York interviewing for a job, and I took him to lunch after the interview because we were both. And he was flying back to Madison, Wisconsin that afternoon. And we get along very well. This was a Thursday. Tuesday, I got a letter from him. Snail mail, I don't know, he carries. He had it. He wrote me a note from the airport. Dear Grandma, I just want you to know how much I love you and we have such a good time together. I don't have it in this room. I keep it in the bedroom. I read it it two or three times a day. And that is snail mail. It lasts.

B (35:46)

Yeah.

C (35:47)

It's a pain in the neck.

B (35:49)

Yeah. Or like if your house like still has a hand line, maybe you. Instead of like the benefits of like paper or. But I mean the benefit. Yeah, the benefits of paper without the snail. Without the snail part of it. You could like fax them. If you both have like landlines and fax machines.

C (36:08)

That could be, I think, I don't, I guess.

B (36:12)

And that allows you to both like, instead of like emailing you, it's like a bit slower or because you have to like print your email and then fax it, but it allows someone who's not tech savvy to read it, you know.

C (36:26)

Thank you.

A (36:26)

Thank you so much. Jonathan, why are you so smart? Do you know?

B (36:31)

I mean like I was, I. My dad is very tech savvy too and like he g me, he like imprinted on me like a love of tech and I, and I like, and I just like pay attention to the tech world. I like listen to podcasts and like, more important and most importantly, I use tech a lot. And like for example, for school you need like a basic. I mean like we use like the Google classroom suite and like the Google suite.

A (37:04)

That's another thing. That's another thing. The entire educational system now is rewired.

C (37:09)

And that's a good thing. Yes, yes, I think.

A (37:11)

And another way of leaving the grand is behind actually.

B (37:18)

A story.

C (37:19)

Oh yes.

B (37:19)

Tell my, my grandfather, he got he. After he retired he decided to get another master's degree. And so he, he's going through the CUNY system and it just requires him to like use word and like jamboard and like these programs. He was just like very utterly, completely lost. And like the hardest part of getting that master's was using the technology.

A (37:51)

There is a certain time in the grandparents life where they feel like the rest the of of the world is moving too fast and they do not want to play catch up, especially with technology. And I, I have seen in some of them a feeling of frustration for some people's shame of not being able to do the things they thought they knew how to do. Well, I've seen someone express so much frustration about not being able to open her. Her email. It was a big deal and I don't understand this emotion. Granny Jane, can you help us to put it in?

C (38:30)

I can, yeah. As we get old, getting older is a great privilege. My father used to say consider the alternative, which is death, which is dying.

B (38:39)

Yeah.

C (38:40)

And it's wonderful. Yeah. But as we get older, our skills diminish. Sometimes you can't Remember a name. I have a thing about. You forget a word. I imagine a rainforest full of trees and plants and vines and animals, and I send a little white mouse into the rainforest to find the word. And just thinking of that, the word comes.

B (39:08)

Yeah, I mean, like, it's hard because, like, you're. You're so smart. I mean, like, you have, like, a ton of words, you know, and, like, to use technological terms, you have, like, a 1 terabyte hard drive, and it's just, like, filled with words.

C (39:23)

You got it.

B (39:24)

But as you get like, older the hard drive, there's less and less usable space. And the words, they just kind of get, like, squeezed out.

C (39:34)

You're right. Absolutely. So I'm okay with words because I've got the rainforest or the terabytes. But when it comes to. Sometimes the door is hard to push, sometimes I drop a glass because my hands just forgot somehow. And all of us are fighting to not give in to these disabilities. Not disability, but this kind of aging. Yes. And then we get. And the computer, it's easy. It's just a keyboard and so on. And when it change, when it. When there's something new and I can't do it because it's changed, I feel hurt, angry, and like an idiot.

B (40:21)

You feel like the mouse has come back with nothing.

C (40:24)

You got it. And I keep forgetting to recharge my mouse. So. And for me to go and do something on something complicated, I have to go. I have to breathe deeply before I go to the computer. I have to say to myself, jane, there's a possibility that you'll get it right. Don't get so frustrated. It moves quickly, you move slowly, but you still are in charge of the buttons. And sometimes it works. Another thing that I do that happens to me is I'm doing something in the afternoon. I can't do it. I've had it. Goodbye, computer. Wake up in the morning. I figured it out. My brain has worked during the night.

B (41:11)

Yeah. It's like. I mean, you have a maximum speed, but I mean, like, rest is just a recharge for the brain. And who's to say it stops chugging when your body does?

C (41:24)

Yes. So that is my. But the frustration. It feels like you're taking a test. Okay, I'm taking an intelligence test. How can I download my taxes? I couldn't get the computer to print out a full page. I mean, the whole thing was like, everybody was against me.

B (41:45)

Yeah.

C (41:46)

It was emotional, not technological.

B (41:48)

It's kind of like taking a test. But the test writers have written It. So they want you to fail.

C (41:55)

Yes. Oh, help. I'll call you from now on.

B (42:00)

Yeah, I mean, that's like, a big issue. And mean, it's one thing that you were talking about, like the beginning that I would just like to highlight. A big problem is two factor authentication. When. When you're trying to log into something and it's sensitive. A message to your phone.

C (42:19)

Yes.

B (42:20)

That it's really annoying and it's very difficult. Oh. And it's, like, annoying. But I just want us to consider the alternative that someone gets your email and gets your password. Two factor authentication. It's like, yo, are you.

C (42:37)

You?

B (42:38)

And it. And if they're like, nah, trust me, I'm you guys. But then it goes, you're not.

C (42:43)

You.

B (42:44)

You've just saved, like, you could have saved, like, your banking data, your personal information and all things that are, like, very valuable to you.

C (42:55)

Absolutely. That's true. And I sometimes think about that, but the rest of the time I can't. They flash the number too quickly or it's too slow. And I, you know, I'm not that I'm busy, but I'm not that busy. And I say, oh, okay, Jane, you can try it in an hour. And I come. But you're absolutely right. A lot of this makes sense.

A (43:16)

Yeah.

C (43:18)

And it's. So what we need, as far as I'm concerned, is you need a grandchild around all the time.

B (43:24)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, these apps, they're like, slow and they're sticky, but they're designed to be that way. Hey. Because, like, they don't want it to be easy for you to get your two factor on authentication.

C (43:37)

Yes. I get. Oh, they don't. But they're protecting me.

B (43:40)

Yeah. It's like, like by making it hard and annoying, they're making you digitally safer.

C (43:48)

Sometimes somebody calls or tries to. I try to answer. I can't. I can't get the call. Then I call them back, then they call me back. And it's frustrating for both sides. And I think my friend thinks I have probably lost it. And the. And the help you have, Jonathan, you have such a lovely way about you, but many children and grandchildren, they're just

B (44:12)

like, duh, push the button.

C (44:14)

Exactly.

A (44:16)

Yes.

C (44:16)

And because when you hear. When I hear a child or a grandchild thinking duh. And saying, mom, I want to jump

B (44:27)

out the window, it's not like you're tweaking. I mean, it's not like you're stupid, You're. Or like a very smart person. It's like don't blame me, blame us. Blame the stupid software designer. It's not my fault, it's theirs.

C (44:42)

There you go.

B (44:43)

When. When a user is having trouble, it's not their fault, it's yours. It's the developers.

A (44:48)

Yes.

B (44:49)

To quote you.

C (44:50)

To quote my boss. That's beautiful.

A (44:54)

Okay.

C (44:54)

So.

A (44:55)

So I'd say that what is. What is something adults struggle with that feels obvious to you? Obviously to me, my mom was struggling with how to navigate the buttons to end the call. And it felt very obvious to me that wasn't what she was used to when she was growing up. And I agree that there are times where you need to try a little bit harder. Harder and learn these new things. And there are times that, honestly, there are grandparents who. Or parents who have tried to learn it.

B (45:30)

Yeah.

A (45:31)

And it just didn't work out. And there is always the tendency of making them feel like they are so inadequate. How do we navigate that, Granny Jane?

C (45:47)

Well, it's very hard.

A (45:49)

Adults. And.

C (45:49)

And you know, when. Five, five and a half years ago, I had a very bad cold and my son Josh was working with the hospital Association. It was the beginning of COVID And I had a really bad cold. And I had a meeting. And he said, mom, you've got to get. Mom, you've got to get tested for Covid. And I said, but I have a meeting. He said, no, a president of Harlem Hospital Hospital. I'll get you in to the testing. And he did. I was furious. I was furious at being pushed around. Guess what? I had Covid. So I'm so grateful to him. But there is a. And this is. This is true of love, food, time, everything. We are super sensitive about being. Losing our authority. We're sitting in Manhattan. You see that water tower?

B (46:46)

Yep.

C (46:47)

When. When my kids speak to me like that or grandchildren, I feel like there's a hole in the water tower and my authority is dripping out.

B (46:56)

Yeah. Like, I mean, like I have an example. Like I play baseball.

C (47:02)

Yes.

B (47:02)

And sometimes, like, I like mess up a straw or I mess up a catch. Like I know what I did wrong feels really hard. It. I really. A peeve of mine is when someone's like, you gotta do XXX and xx, X, Y and Z. When like, I know what I did wrong. You know.

C (47:23)

Exactly. Exactly. Thank you. It's not only old, it's young.

A (47:28)

It's all of us.

C (47:30)

Maybe it's universal. And maybe what we all need to do is listen to you and understand that we're all in the same boat. We may the tech, the we're at the beginning of the technological revolution.

B (47:47)

Yeah. I mean like, like have we, I mean like the industrial revolution from the 1800s, have that ever ended? Like we're still having, having new industries are still popping up every day and new things are being created, like every day.

A (48:08)

So as we wrap this up.

C (48:09)

Yeah.

A (48:10)

I want us to look at in general whether technology has helped families stay together or whether it has pulled families apart. I'll start with Granny Jane. I mean, basically, has technology helped you feel closer to family in any way?

C (48:28)

Yes and no. I think that every technological revolution challenges the culture and makes change. It's true. Every technological revolution, when they had clay and they put marks in it and all of a sudden they had tablets, that was a tremendous revolution, made agriculture possible and so on and so, and, and we are at a time of great change. And so our job as humans in this is to make sure that every time we can connect, we do connect and we adapt and we adapt.

B (49:06)

Yeah. I think, I mean like technology, it allows you to be much closer to someone much further away. But I mean like on the flip side side, it like having family in one place is less of an incentive than it was like 40, 50 years ago because like, why do I have to like, why do. If there's like a bed, if there's a place that I find better or in like Oklahoma when I'm in like in Maine, why. And all my family's in Maine instead of, I can, I can just FaceTime them and, and cesam on the holiday. During the holidays.

C (49:50)

Yes. And that has been a dynamic long before the Internet. That's, I think that's the effect of the post war industrial boom. People moved away, they talked on the

B (50:03)

phone

C (50:05)

and the families had to work harder to stay together.

B (50:10)

And I mean, and, and that's like a con. But I mean if someone's like really attached, like if a grandparent is really attached to New York and the rest of the family is in like Boise, Idaho.

C (50:28)

Yeah.

B (50:28)

Oh, you. And neither of you wants to move to be closer to each other. You can stay in touch or like if you see your grandparents relative relatively often, but like not often enough for either of you, you can stay in touch wherever you are.

C (50:45)

That's true. And that's the, that's the bottom line. Stay in touch.

A (50:49)

One of the impact of technology on everyday life, business and all is speed.

C (50:54)

Yes.

A (50:54)

And it's the illusion of all of a sudden everything collapses. Speed and space. Speed and space. Everything just comes streamlined, like it's smaller. We're all suddenly closer because you're following me on Instagram. No, I don't know you. It creates that illusion and because I know that I can just call grandma tomorrow and call her just before her birthday. So I did. We take things for granted. Yes. As a result of technology.

C (51:26)

And that's always been.

A (51:27)

Yes. So the kind of hard work it used to take to love, to be close to someone, to be present, is no longer necessary. Do you think because of technology or do you think technology is supposed to enhance those values in us?

B (51:51)

I think, I think technology, it's. It hasn't changed how we love. I mean it hasn't changed the amount of. Amount we love. It's just changed how we do it. Like.

C (52:04)

I agree.

B (52:05)

I mean you can still have the same heartfelt conversations with someone, like over the phone or via FaceTime. You just, it just gives you that extra flexibility. I. It's like it change. It adapts like relationships like you were talking about, like your grand and matt Nigeria is like, it's far away from here. And without. Yeah. And without like WhatsApp, you would, you would have like much less. Wait, you would have. There would be much less ways to communicate with her. But because of apps like WhatsApp, you are allowed to have that like close personal bond without space as a constraint. I think that's really powerful. Powerful and one of the greatest benefits technology has ever delivered.

A (52:55)

Are there little things, little changes that grandparents can incorporate, say on their own or when their grandkids go to visit to help them use a phone. Better to help them send a text. Like practical stuff, whether on their iPhone or on, on their Android. Little things. I'll let Jonathan answer and then I'll pass it on to you.

B (53:19)

So, so I mean this is like, this is like one point I heavily suggest. Use the same brand as the. As like your grandchildren as your children. And like that makes it just like so much easier. All right. Also.

C (53:35)

That's so smart.

A (53:36)

That's so smart.

B (53:37)

Give me a high five on that one. Also, when you're setting up a new phone or a new device, always have a grandchildren, a grandchild there to help you or like a child or someone savvy there to help you because they can show you the ropes. So that, and so that they. So that you are more adept. Like for example, you may be using like a five years out of day operating system on your phone. Never bother to update it. Then you get a brand new phone phone and that phone is automatically updated to the latest update. Yes. So. And then, so it's always good to have, like, someone who knows how to do it there because then they can show you how the new changes, how everything works.

C (54:27)

Absolutely. I have a tech guy and took him years not to talk to me. Like, I was an old senile lady. And I kept saying, but I was in the business before, before you were born. Didn't matter. I didn't know it. And I turned out I hadn't. I didn't have my hearing aids in when he came, so he had to repeat himself. And that made him treat me like an old itty, you know, itty bitty. So there it is.

B (54:53)

You. You. It's hard in the beginning, but, like, once you've got it, you've always got it for the rest of your life, or until they are update the app and change everything you know how to do.

C (55:04)

Exactly.

A (55:05)

And then you're back to square one. So finally this, this question is for you. If you had to teach your granny how to use an app, how would you do it?

B (55:18)

So I would, I would first, I would take it step by step. I would go like, here's how to, like, send an email. Here's how to see that you. You've got an email. Here's how to reply. I'm just using an email app for here's how to reply to an email and here's, here's, like, how to. How to type like, who you're, who the person your email link is. And I would show by example, or I would be like, you press this button and I would like, record these videos on how to do it, on the videos of me doing it so that if she is ever like, how do I send an email again? She can go to the email that's titled to the video that's titled send email. And see that. Press the little compose button.

A (56:10)

Thank you. And that's how every single one of you app designers should do it. And when you're making it, consider the graph grandparents. Seriously, they're going to be more of your customers very soon. You might as well start now. All right, then. My name is Adeshawa. Josh would like to say thank you for watching.

C (56:27)

My name is Jane. I say, and I'm so grateful that you're watching. And we're such a great trio.

A (56:32)

Absolutely. Don't forget to keep sending us your thoughts, your suggestions to the grannies. PodcastMail.com we would like to hear what you think. This has been a learning process, process for me. I think I ended up not doing more than asking questions today. I just kept doing this because Jonathan has been very amazing. If you, if you have any questions for Jonathan or have any questions for Granny Jane, you know what to do. The Grannies podcastmail.com Go on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, Spotify and on television. Eminen Community we thank you so much for staying with us throughout the today and we will see you next time. Thank you. Thank you for coming on the ride with us. Jane and I would like to hear from you. Please send your comments to the grannies podcast gmail.com the grannies.podcast gmail.com you can listen to the Granny's Podcast on Spotify, iHeartRadio, Apple Podcast or wherever, wherever you get your podcasts.