Podcast Summary: "A right-wing economist makes his case"

The Gray Area with Sean Illing (Vox) | June 9, 2025
Guest: Oren Cass (Founder, American Compass, Editor of The New Conservative)

Overview

This episode explores the evolving philosophy of conservative economic thought in America. Sean Illing interviews Oren Cass, a leading advocate of a new brand of right-wing economic populism, about the past failures of market fundamentalism, the meaning of a "good economy," and what a conservative economic reset might look like. Cass outlines his critiques of both right-wing libertarianism and laissez-faire economics, his vision for a worker-centered conservatism, and whether the Republican Party is actually changing in substance. They debate the differences and potential overlaps between conservative economic populists and the progressive left, especially around markets, industrial policy, and the nature of "the good life."

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Inadequacy of Consumption-Driven Economics

• Opening Premise:
  Oren Cass argues that focusing solely on increasing GDP and material consumption has not led to human flourishing or strengthened communities, families, or democracy.

  "We assumed that as long as we were increasing consumption, as long as material living standards were rising, everybody would be happy and we could declare success... And yet I think it's also very obvious that did not achieve what we were trying to achieve." — Oren Cass (03:31)

• Flaws in Economic Orthodoxy:
  Cass critiques mainstream economics for maximizing consumption rather than addressing broader social goods. He points to falling investment, innovation, and family stability as evidence of deeper decline, despite rising material standards.

2. Why the Right Failed to See This Sooner

• Historical Explanation:
  The Reagan era coalition fused market libertarians, social conservatives, and hawkish foreign policy types. The anti-communist consensus allowed market libertarianism to dominate economic policy, often at odds with traditional conservative values.

  "A very libertarian free market mindset was then imposed on the economic policy of the right of center, even where that was very much in tension with a lot of other conservative values." — Oren Cass (09:15)

• Markets and Conservative Values:
  Cass underscores that free markets can undermine the very institutions—family, community—conservatives claim to value, and that genuine markets require institutional guardrails and constraints.

3. Populism or Social Democracy? On the Difference with the Left

• Cass on Conservative Distinctness:
  While both left and right can value community and social stability, Cass asserts conservatives seek to revive or reinforce traditional structures (family, nation) and channel markets toward socially beneficial ends, rather than replace them with state solutions.

  "Markets, properly constrained and channeled, can do a lot... there are a lot of reasons we prefer market based solutions to state based solutions." — Oren Cass (15:00)

• Left-Right Overlap and Divergence:
  Illing notes many on the left want similar guardrails for markets; Cass responds that conservatives still differ in their means (favoring constraints to channel markets) and ends (valuing family, nationalism).

4. Concrete Policy Ideas: What Does the "New Conservatism" Want?

• Macro (Market-Level) Reforms:

  • Rebalancing Globalization:
    Argues for scaling back offshoring and restoring some domestic manufacturing with targeted industrial policy and tariffs.

    "The moment we released the constraint on... an advantage in investing domestically... we entirely lose the right to expect that markets are actually going to deliver on the things we care about." — Oren Cass (28:32)

  • Combating Financialization:
    Criticizes Wall Street's dominance and the pursuit of quick financial returns over long-term productive investment.

  • Pushing Industrial Policy:
    Sees direct policy action (tariffs, incentives, targeted support) as necessary to encourage domestic manufacturing and address deindustrialization.

• Micro (Institutional) Support:
  Strengthening institutions that help people succeed in markets—like supporting family wage jobs and pluralistic pathways for contributors beyond academic tracks.

5. Navigating Tradeoffs: Economic Pain and Shared Sacrifice

• On Short-term Costs: Cass concedes that a shift away from cheap imports toward domestic production may mean higher prices and transition pain for some, but argues it’s an investment in long-term economic health and social stability.

  "There will be economic pain in the transition... probably a five to ten year period in which we have some adjustment costs in the economy..." — Oren Cass (36:39)

• On the Greater Good: The goal is a more broadly shared prosperity, stronger communities, and real pluralism in "the good life"—not just GDP growth.

6. Morality, Pluralism, and the Good Life in Policy

• Can We Agree on a Shared Moral Vision?
  Illing presses Cass on whether his vision depends on a cultural cohesion that's gone—but Cass insists some shared conception of flourishing (family, productive work) is not exclusionary and aligns with what most Americans want.

  "If you want to have a healthy society, it has to be one that does provide lots of different pathways to a good life, and... we have to... intervene in and shape markets to uphold it." — Oren Cass (44:41)

• On Reinstating the One-Income Family as the Norm:
  Cass argues this should be a choice for families, and that an economy enabling single-earner households is pluralist, not regressive.

  “[It] is an incredibly important principle... If you assert that…people on the left get very nervous about that... with the payout being, let's just have no choice at all.” — Oren Cass (46:45)

7. Is the GOP Really Changing? Republicanism After Trump

• Is the New Economic Populism Real?
  Cass is optimistic about the rightward shift, citing new labor bills, more robust industrial policy rhetoric, and changes in personnel as evidence of a direction change.

  "The distance from Mike Pence to JD Vance is pretty dramatic... the distance from various secretaries of labor in the first term to a Secretary of Labor recommended by the Teamsters is pretty dramatic." — Oren Cass (51:42)

• Illing's Skepticism:
  Illing calls out recent GOP legislation as “the same old Republican Party”—tax cuts, social spending cuts—suggesting rhetorical change is outpacing substance. Cass counters that real policy change will lag behind shifts in party ideology and personnel.

• Bipartisan Possibilities:
  Cass is open to working with Democrats, noting cross-party interest in some policies (like tariffs) and emphasizing the need for two healthy parties contesting over means/ends for working Americans.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On GDP and Human Flourishing:

  “That did not necessarily correspond to human flourishing... certainly it did not correspond to strengthening families and communities. And ultimately it didn't correspond to a strong and healthy political system or democracy.”
  — Oren Cass (03:31)

• On Market Fundamentalism’s Incompatibility with Conservatism:

  “Markets are very much in tension with other values like family and community. And in some cases, markets even actively can undermine or erode the strength of those other institutions.”
  — Oren Cass (09:15)

• On Pluralism and Family Policy:

  “That's an extraordinary rejection of pluralism in favor of a market imposed form of constraint that forces people into one arrangement... Now it's very possible that... you still choose to have a second person working. But choose is the key word there.”
  — Oren Cass (46:45)

• On Policy Lag and Republicans’ Future:

  “Elected political leaders are always going to be the lagging indicator... If you want to know what's actually moving within a party... counting the votes today, I think is just not what someone in good faith trying to understand the direction would do.”
  — Oren Cass (54:11)

Important Timestamps

• 03:31 – Cass on the failures of GDP/consumption-focused economic thinking
• 09:15 – How Reagan-era conservatism absorbed market libertarianism
• 15:00 – Distinguishing conservative economic populism from the left
• 28:32 – The case for industrial policy and rebalancing globalization
• 36:39 – Economic pain and transition costs in moving to a new economy
• 44:41 – On needing pluralist visions and shared ends in a diverse society
• 46:45 – Debating the desirability and feasibility of a one-income family norm
• 51:42 – Is the Republican Party truly shifting toward worker-centered economics?
• 54:11 – Realistic expectations for policy change and party realignment

Tone & Final Thoughts

The conversation is intellectually rigorous, civil, and reflective, with both participants probing areas of agreement and deep-rooted disagreement. Cass is thoughtful and pragmatic in advancing a vision of conservatism that departs sharply from both libertarian dogma and progressive social democracy, while Illing persistently challenges him on issues of practicality, pluralism, and political sincerity.

For listeners or readers:
This episode provides a lucid map of the current ideological shake-up on the American right, as well as the practical and philosophical dilemmas facing those who want an economy that serves more than shareholders. Cass’s vision is fundamentally about reasserting social goods and family stability as ends for policy—through markets, but not for markets alone.