The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Episode: “Forgiveness is Optional”

Air date: December 15, 2025 | Guest: Dr. Myisha Cherry, philosopher and author of The Failures of Forgiveness

Episode Overview

In this episode, Sean Illing and Dr. Myisha Cherry explore the complexities and misconceptions of forgiveness, both at personal and societal levels. Cherry critiques society's idolization of forgiveness, arguing it often becomes a ritual that excuses injustice rather than addresses and repairs harm. The conversation dives into what forgiveness can and cannot accomplish, the purpose of anger as a moral force, and the limitations of making forgiveness a universal prescription for healing.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Idolization of Forgiveness

• Forgiveness as the “happy ending”:

  • Our culture, especially American culture, treats forgiveness as the ultimate virtuous action and a cure for any wrong.
  • Cherry notes:

    “To idolize forgiveness is to perceive it as something that can solve all of our problems. I call it kind of magical thinking about forgiveness... Forgiveness is the thing that's going to get us reconciliation... that all is made right, all is made whole.” (05:56–07:18)

  • This attitude can make forgiveness seem obligatory, and those who don’t forgive are viewed as obstacles to repair.

• The danger of idolizing victims and forgivers:

  • Cherry warns that this view shifts the burden of repair to victims, letting communities and perpetrators off the hook.

    “It suggests that only they [victims] can basically solve our problems or they have a role in repairing our world.” (06:52–07:18)

2. Limitations of Forgiveness

• Forgiveness can’t change the past:

  • Cherry emphasizes that while forgiveness may aid in future repair, it cannot undo the harm:

    “The past has an afterlife, so it can't redo the past... Life is hard. We can't, you know, redo the past. We have to make the future as best we can.” (07:21–08:38)

• Case Study: Charleston Church Shooting (2015):

  • The public was fascinated when victims’ families forgave the perpetrator, Dylann Roof.
  • Cherry notes the problematic media focus on this forgiveness rather than the atrocity itself:

    “It seemed as if forgiveness became the headline and no longer the hatred or the atrocity that took place... That magical thinking about forgiveness... relieves us of our own responsibility.” (09:01–12:37)

  • Press repeatedly asks Black victims about forgiveness before real healing or justice can start.

3. Forgiveness Without Apology or Remorse

• Is forgiveness possible or meaningful without remorse from the wrongdoer?
  • Cherry:

    “You needn't always do it for the forgiver. You can just do it for your. Yourself. And if that's the case, then it doesn't really require apologies in order for you to forgive.” (15:30–17:29)

  • The goal of forgiveness can differ: reconciliation, personal relief, or even for community healing.

4. Multiplicity and Process of Forgiveness

• Forgiveness isn’t a one-size-fits-all act:

  • It’s a process, not a single moment.
  • Cherry describes personal experience forgiving her stepfather:

    “I have forgiven him. My forgiveness just looks different from my sister. For my sister, she let go of resentment for the purpose of reconciliation. And for me, the anger is still there. I can't do anything about that.” (20:15–21:49)

  • One can forgive and still feel anger; forgiveness and the full eradication of anger or memory are not the same.

• Letting go vs. forgetting:

  • Cherry:

    “When people say let it go, they're basically saying, stop holding on to the past. But like I said a few minutes ago, the past holds on to us... wrongdoing changes us... you can't let it go, right? But what you can do is try to repair your life for the future as best you can.” (25:31–27:32)

5. The Moral Value of Anger

• Anger as a moral emotion and a catalyst for justice:

  • Cherry draws on Joseph Butler and her previous work (The Case for Rage), arguing that anger is essential for motivating justice:

    “If we did not have anger, he doubts that there would even be justice in the world. He doubts that we would administer justice in the courts… anger allows us to achieve justice. It motivates us to achieve justice, to make what was wrong, to make it. To make it right.” (32:06–34:34)

  • Anger signals whose lives and values matter and often drives social movements for change.

• Too much or too little anger:

  • Cherry, drawing from Aristotle, warns against both suppressing and overindulging anger:

    “Too much of anything is problematic. Also think that too little of anything is also problematic. And the challenge for us, according to Aristotle, is to try to find that sweet spot.” (39:26–41:06)

6. Forgiveness, Justice, and Repair

• Restorative justice & repair:

  • Forgiveness cannot substitute for accountability or material repair.

    “Forgiveness can't do all the work, particularly in a political context like South Africa... We never had anything like South Africa. There was never a political project of reconciliation in the United States as relates to black folks and descendants of slaves.” (44:06–46:53)

• America’s “innocence” story:

  • Cherry connects American resistance to accountability to a “myth of innocence,” citing James Baldwin:

    “James Baldwin believed that America just loves the state of innocence. And in order to experience the comfort of innocence, you have to not own up to what you've done or you have to be in denial about what is occurring.” (57:14–59:11)

7. Political Forgiveness and Its Limits

• Is societal forgiveness even possible, or relevant, when harm is ongoing?

  • Cherry:

    “Because there's a legacy of slavery... there's something actively still going on... For forgiveness to even be relevant right now is disrespectful, right? That's like asking someone who is stabbing you, can you forgive me? Why would I forgive you? Now you're still stabbing me.” (54:32–57:01)

  • The priority must be cessation of harm, not demands for forgiveness from the wronged.

• Forgiveness as optional, not obligatory or central:

  • Cherry:

    “Forgiveness becomes relevant given the messiness of life... It's relevant, but it's not necessary or central. There's perhaps other things... in order to repair our world.” (59:59–61:53)

8. Self-Forgiveness

• Dangers of too quick or too slow self-forgiveness:
  • Cherry, referencing Aristotle:

    “If you do it [self-forgiveness] too quickly... that's giving yourself off the hook. But if you sit with it too long, engage in obsessive thoughts... that becomes the problem.” (65:38–66:18)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On idolizing forgiveness:

  • “If forgiveness was a virtue, it would simply suggest that if you don't forgive... unforgiveness will always be a vice of some sort.” (13:32–14:51)

• On forgiveness and anger:

  • “I have forgiven him. My forgiveness just looks different from my sister. The anger is still there. I can't do anything about that. But just because the anger remains doesn't mean that the forgiveness hasn't occurred.” (21:49–22:47)

• On anger as a sign of love:

  • “Typically, when there's anger there, there's also compassion, pity, and love. And what becomes powerful is when you combine all those emotions together, you're able to have a wonderful movement.” (35:24–36:52)

• On America’s failed reconciliation:

  • “We never had a truth reconciliation commission... forgiveness was just never introduced as an option. Right. We never had anything like South Africa.” (44:06–46:53)

• On ongoing harm vs. forgiveness:

  • “That's like asking someone who is stabbing you, can you forgive me? Why would I forgive you? Now you're still stabbing me... Forgiveness is completely irrelevant. I need for you to stop harming me, and then perhaps we can talk about forgiveness later.” (54:32–57:01)

Timestamps of Important Segments

• Idolizing Forgiveness & Consequences: 05:56–07:18
• Limits of Forgiveness/Charleston Shooting Case: 09:01–12:37
• Forgiveness Without Apology: 15:17–17:29
• Forgiving While Angry (personal story): 20:15–22:47
• Anger as a Moral Emotion: 31:59–36:52
• Debating Too Much Anger (Aristotle): 39:17–41:06
• Restorative vs. Retributive Justice: 41:06–46:53
• Societal Forgiveness and Ongoing Harm: 54:32–57:01
• America’s Innocence Myth (James Baldwin): 57:14–59:11
• Forgiveness as Optional, Not Necessary: 59:59–61:53
• Debate on Self-Forgiveness: 65:38–66:18

Conclusion

Forgiveness is Optional challenges conventional wisdom by showing that forgiveness is neither an automatic virtue nor a universal cure for wrongdoing. Dr. Myisha Cherry encourages a more nuanced understanding: forgiveness comes in many forms; it may involve anger; and it's not always required, especially when harm persists. Ultimately, repair and justice involve much more than the forgiving act—and often, accountability, truth-telling, and community healing must come first.

Guest’s Book:
The Failures of Forgiveness by Dr. Myisha Cherry

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