← The Gray Area with Sean Illing
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- [00:02]
Anna North
For a lot of Americans, credit card debt feels like a fact of life.
- [00:07]
Tori Dunlop
I think it's just important for people
- [00:09]
Host of Gray Area Friday
to understand how credit can work for
- [00:11]
Anna North
you or against you, why that little piece of plastic has so much power. That's this week on Explain It To Me. Find new episodes Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts. Megan Rapinoe here this week on A Touch More. We've got something for everyone. We're talking about the US Women Olympians taking home more medals than the men, the U.S. women's national team roster heading into the she Believes cup, and the latest on the WNBA CBA negotiations. Check out the latest episode of A Touch More wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.
- [01:12]
Host of Gray Area Friday
Welcome to the Gray Area Friday. My guest today is Anna north, my longtime colleague at Vox, who I'm ashamed to say I have not had on the show before, but we are riding that ship today. She's a wonderful reporter. She writes about kids, parenthood, American family life. She's also a novelist. That is my introduction of you. Did I miss anything? How would you introduce yourself at a party?
- [01:45]
Anna North
At a party? I guess I'd say I'm a reporter and a writer, journalist and novelist. So you got, you did pretty good.
- [01:53]
Host of Gray Area Friday
You're beat as a journalist. It's pretty capacious. Kids, families, parenthood, a lot of gender politics. I mean, that's, it's a pretty, pretty broad area to cover. I'm not sure that's a typical beat in a lot of newsrooms. I mean, how did you land on that?
- [02:14]
Anna North
Yeah, I came to VOX as the gender reporter in 2017. That was sort of right when MeToo was becoming really big. And so I reported on that for about a year almost exclusively. And since then, I sort of do a lot of things, but a lot of it circles around, you know, I typically call it American family Life. I write a newsletter called Kids Today, which I think of really as a newsletter about kids lives, like, not so much about parenting. There's a lot of really great parenting newsletters out there, and I try to steer clear of advice and instead, as much as I can, just to talk to kids about their experiences and learn about what kids are experiencing right now. And I've also kind of like been trying to have more empathy for children and figure out what it's like to be a kid today. When I had kids, I realized, like, how powerless you are as a kid and how other people dictate so much of your daily life. So I find myself a lot of times, like, trying to get in their headspace and think about what is that like and how do kids take back a little power?
- [03:17]
Host of Gray Area Friday
How many kids do you have?
- [03:18]
Anna North
2.
- [03:19]
Host of Gray Area Friday
I have one six year old and another one on the way actually.
- [03:23]
Anna North
Oh, congratulations. That's exciting.
- [03:24]
Host of Gray Area Friday
In April. Should I be terrified?
- [03:28]
Anna North
Nah, it's fine. The second you'll be fine. Your six year old's big. Like they can dress themselves, you know, you'll be fine.
- [03:35]
Host of Gray Area Friday
Okay, I'm mostly excited, but a little terrified. We'll see. Speaking of kids and having them, you've got a piece out about Gen Z and their evolving views on parenthood, which I found very interesting and surprising in some ways and maybe not so surprising in other ways. What was it about this topic that drew you in? Was there something like some mystery you felt like you needed to solve? Like what were you, what were you looking for when you like started reporting on this piece on how like Gen Z men and women are thinking about parenthood and how differently they're thinking about parenthood?
- [04:14]
Anna North
Yeah, no, I saw this really interesting poll of young voters, Gen Z voters, and it looked at male Trump voters, male Harris voters, female Trump voters and female Harris voters and asked them to rank like, what are the things you think are important in a good life essentially? And the male Trump voters actually rated having children as number one among like 12 or 13 different options. Nobody else had it up that high. Not any of the women, no matter how they voted, and not male Harris voters either. And you know, like then I did some reporting on that poll and people said like, well, it's just one poll, maybe you shouldn't put too much stock in it. But then if you look across polls overwhelmingly you'll see young men more excited, more enthusiastic about having children one day than young women. And I could think of a lot of possible reasons why that might be, but I wanted to dig into it a little bit and I also wanted to ask some young men and sort of people who work with and do polling on young men, like, what does that mean, like you want kids? Like what kind of a father do you want to be? Does that mean you want to be an involved father and really spending a lot of time with your kids? Are you imagining like some kind of trad lifestyle where like you have a stay at home wife and you're going out to the office? Like what? I was just very curious about like what fatherhood meant to these Gen Z men who like are very excited to do it one day.
- [05:46]
Host of Gray Area Friday
Yeah, I have the, the numbers here and I don't want to butcher it. So I'M going to look at it. This is from your p. So this is a 2023 Pew poll and 57% of men between 18 and 34 said they wanted to have kids one day, like definitively. And only 45% of women said that. That was a little surprising to me. Maybe it shouldn't be. I guess I just would have assumed that those numbers would have been just closer.
- [06:16]
Anna North
I was kind of surprised by that. As you say, I thought it was a pretty big gap, especially given that the narrative that I think we had heard about young Gen Z people generally over the last couple years is this is a generation that doesn't want kids. This generation doesn't want to get married. This is a generation that's really worried about the future and feeling really alienated and doesn't sort of want to take these steps toward conventional family. And so I thought it was interesting that these high numbers of Gen Z men were saying like, no, actually we do want kids. If you dig back into the historical polling, it's a little wonky. There's some evidence that women without children for a long time have been a little bit, had a little bit more trepidation than men without children. And partly that's for reasons that make sense. Like they know that their careers could take a hit. They've all, they've all read those articles about the motherhood penalty. They know that they will probably have to give birth, which men don't have to do, you know, and deal with physical recovery and sort of deal with all of the stereotyping and stigmatizing that comes with like having a female body that becomes a mother in this world. So it's like not weird that young women might have more anxieties. But I think what was striking to me was the size of the gap and really the size of the enthusiasm among men of a generation that were expressing this like pretty like, you know, conventional, conventional and pretty like social aspiration to have a family.
- [07:53]
Host of Gray Area Friday
Having kids is just really hard and it's really expensive, increasingly expensive, especially if you live, I mean when we lived in the D.C. area before we moved, we had a six month old daycare was $2,000 a month, a preschool, $2,000 a month. I mean, that's, you know what I mean? I, I understand why people look at that and go, you know, I can't afford a house, I can't, can't afford this. Like, I, this is, this is a burden I can't take on even if I want to. But, and you talk to a lot of you know, there's several young men quoted in the piece. I think one of them is actually like 18. What is there. How do you explain their increased interest? Like, what's going on there? Why. Why are Gen Z men, like, increasingly fired up about being a dad? What are they telling you? What is the data saying? Like, why. Why are Gen Z men increasingly interested in having kids and starting families?
- [08:50]
Anna North
Yeah, I mean, the way that one expert sort of put it to me was that, you know, for a long time it was assumed in American culture that you should want to have kids and that people would want to have kids. And it is women who have pulled away from it and men who have not pulled away. With the young men I talked to, I think I got a certain sense of that where one of them, you know, just talked about, like, his friends who are male, think of this as like something they're going to do one day. They think of it as like, you know, a capstone or like, you know, just a really important part of a full life. And it's something that they assume that they're going to do.
- [09:28]
Host of Gray Area Friday
What would you say are the. Are the most like the primary reasons you get from women or you see in the data from. From Gen Z women about why they're, they're, they're hesitant? What are the main reasons?
- [09:39]
Anna North
Well, one expert explained it to me like, it's never been more costly for women to have a child. And that doesn't mean it's harder than ever to be a mom. And it means that women, many women, most women in the US probably have more options than they've ever had. So, like, you know, women's salaries still aren't at parity with men's, but they're higher than they've ever been. Women's educational attainment is really high. There's a sense that there's an increasing social sense that women can live a full life without becoming mothers, and that's fine. And there's a lot more acceptance for it. So it's like, whereas women used to just really not have that many options for their lives, now they have lots. And you're giving some of that up when you have a child. You know, it's documented that you're giving up some salary, no question. Yeah, you're giving up some time, you know, So I think that's part of it is just women, like, you know, have not reached equality with men, but they have come to approach it more and more. And so they have more and more choices and having children becomes a more and more sort of costly choice. And then two, I think you'll hear from young women this concern that their partners are not going to pull their weight. You know, I get into this in the piece that we have seen real shifts in terms of how much childcare men do, but it's not 50, 50. And women know that. And you know, they may also increasingly know that they're going to be bringing in a lot of the money to just, you know, data wise, most families are two income families. I think a lot of women also know that they are going to end up, you know, contributing economically at least 50%, if not more than 50%. So I think there is a worry that they're going to be doing more than half on the home front. They're going to be doing at least half, if not more than half, career wise. And so I think that can start to seem like a bad deal too.
- [11:35]
Host of Gray Area Friday
Maybe the thing that surprised me the most is that it would appear with Gen Z men in particular, seems like the trend is that towards more like a preference for traditional division of labor. Right. Where this idea that like, you know, to be a, to be a man means to like be the breadwinner. Right. Which was fascinating to me. And because I had this, I want to find this real quick because I don't want to get it wrong. And I'm just going to read the, the quote to you if you don't mind, because I really, I mean, I. This is really shocking. And the quote is that, and this is a, this is a study from 2025. So 28 of Gen Z men, 28 said a stay at home dad was, quote, less of a man compared with 25% of millennials. And this is what really shocked me. And just 12% of baby boomers. So 12% of baby boomers said that staying at home as a dad made you less of a man. I can't make sense of that because it just seems like, like my dad's generation, like all the just had much more regressive views about this. Like, how do you make sense of that? Like, how did boomers have more, you know, progressive views about this than Gen Z? That seems baffling.
- [12:52]
Anna North
I, I know. I thought that poll was really funny. And I also was really bowled over by the boomer numbers. I feel like I could do a story just on that.
- [13:00]
Host of Gray Area Friday
Almost seems like it has to be wrong.
- [13:02]
Anna North
Well, what I wondered, is it possible there's a typo? I know that, like in the study or something like 121%. No, I mean, what I wondered about that study is, like, I don't have the data in front of me of, like, what percentage of boomer dads stayed home with their children while their children were young. But, like, I wonder if you have, like, boomer dads sort of looking back with hindsight at their lives and being like, oh, if I had stayed home, like, it would have been okay, or just, like, having more distance from, you know, the direct act of childcare. But I do think it's of a piece with some polling and data that we see from Gen Z men just, like, expressing a variety of kind of traditionalist gender ideas. You know, I talked to a guy who does a lot of polling with Gen Z, and he did. He did say that, like, when he polls young men, they really associate masculinity with being a provider, more so than any other. Any other sort of characteristics. So they're not. They're not associating it, like, primarily with giving care, for example, which you could imagine. So I do think we're like, there's. There is, I think, this move toward what you could call a more regressive gender structure among Gen Z men, but I also think that we're seeing other moves in the opposite direction.
- [14:22]
Host of Gray Area Friday
Do you have a unified theory for why men are moving in that direction? Is it a reaction against something? Is it just a political winds just happen to be blowing that way at this, like, moment in history? Or what do you think explains that?
- [14:37]
Anna North
It's hard. I have this feeling that any polling really flattens people's attitudes toward these aspects of life that are just incredibly complicated. Even more complicated than, like, who are you gonna vote for? A lot of media geared toward young men right now is not especially friendly toward, like, gender equity. You know, like, there's definitely a theory that, like, trad wife content is and was mostly for young men. I feel like the tradwife is less ascendant than it used to be. As an archetype. I think there's less, you know, less cultural purchase there, you know, but plenty of podcasts where the audience is primarily young men are not, like, super feminist necessarily. So I think the media environment is definitely a factor, you know, and everybody I talked to talked about, you know, like, real difficulties for young men in terms of education, in terms of finding jobs. You know, when people are having a really hard time in their lives is not their most generous time or their time of most generosity toward people who are different from them or toward people who they see as competing with them, which is sometimes a narrative. You get about young men and young women. So I think that's all in the mix.
- [15:55]
Host of Gray Area Friday
If you just play this out a little bit, it seems like this is going to be a problem, right? With, with young men and young women moving in different directions, wanting different things, having competing visions of, you know, what it means to, to be a dad or a mom. And I mean, I. And of course politically, young men are moving to the right and women are moving, moving more and more to the left. Actually, I think, I think the drift on with women to the left has been a little bit more pronounced than, than men to the right. But still that, that is a general movement. I mean, how's that going to play out, right? Both politically and just culturally. Right. I mean, if something has to give.
- [16:40]
Anna North
No, you know, it's definitely something that I think we see in a lot of data and something we talk about a lot. Something that like, has real implications politically for elections. It has implications for families. But I think the bottom line for me, just from like all my reporting about like families and childbearing and all this kind of stuff, is like, there are lots of ways that we could make it easier as a country for people to have the families that they want. And I think that would end up benefiting everybody, right? Men, women, people of all genders. I think things like paid leave, and I'm not just talking like experts talk to me about this too. Things like paid leave or affordable childcare that would probably help women. It would help women who are like, gee, I'd like to have a kid one day, but I don't know if I can handle it with my career and I don't know if I can afford it. And it would help men because it would convince more women that they are okay with having children. So if you're worried about all these men who really want kids and women are not so sure, a great way to address that worry is to support the women. And I think that ends up helping everybody across the board.
- [17:50]
Host of Gray Area Friday
Is there a world where women are able to have children without paying the professional price they've had to pay?
- [18:00]
Anna North
Sure. I mean, there's plenty of countries where the wage gap is smaller. You know, generally what people talk about again is things like paid leave and affordable, accessible childcare. In countries where women take really long leaves, like a year or longer, you tend to see less parity career wise and wage wise. But in countries where women can pretty easily take six months and where they then have access to good childcare options that are affordable, you do see better parity. Like it is possible. It's not pie in the sky. Another thing that experts pointed me to is Scandinavian countries that have introduced paternity leave. That is sort of use it or lose it. So, you know, the family has X number of weeks of leave, Y number of weeks can be used only by the dad. So if the dad doesn't use it, then you don't get it. And that really incentivizes men to take that time and has been like a big driver of social change in the countries where it's been tried. So, you know, that's like, that policy costs money, but it's pretty simple and I think would have a big effect.
- [19:06]
Host of Gray Area Friday
I'm a little concerned that politics actually moving in the wrong direction in terms of, like, getting us to the place. I think you and I would prefer to be a more fair place, a place that's, you know, actually makes it more possible for people who want to have kids, to have kids without having to pay prices they shouldn't have to pay and don't have to pay in other places. In terms of the politics, do you think the direction we're going now is going to lead to a better situation here, or do you fear maybe it's actually going to get more fraught and create more tension that will grow this gap, not shrink it?
- [19:49]
Anna North
I think it's a long question. No. Yeah, That's a good question, though. I think it's complicated. It's tough. There's not a lot of evidence that any policy boosts birth rates very much like these are personal decisions for a lot of people. That said, there's a lot we could do to make having kids cheaper that we have not necessarily done as a country, you know, and that I don't see a lot of appetite from, you know, the White House to do, you know, there's not a lot of appetite for universal childcare. There's not a lot of appetite for universal paid leave coming from the top. That said, there is a lot of appetite for those policies at the state level.
- [20:27]
Host of Gray Area Friday
So this administration notwithstanding, it is your sense that. That policymakers around the country, particularly at the state level, are actually taking this seriously and looking for ways to materially change the conditions on the ground so that people who want to have kids can.
- [20:44]
Anna North
Yes, I think if you look at the local and state level, I think there's real movement that you don't see at the federal level, and then maybe you won't see at the federal level for a long time.
- [21:06]
Host of Gray Area Friday
My day kicks off with a refreshing Celsius energy drink then straight to the gym. Pre K pickup back home to meal prep time for my fire station shift. One more Celsius. Gotta keep the lights on when the three alarm hits. I'm ready. Celsius Live Fit. Go grab a cold refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate now@celsius.com
- [21:29]
Astette Hernton
hey everybody, Astette Hernton here. I wanted to let you know that Vox Media is returning to south by Southwest and Austin for live tapings of your favorite podcast. Join us from March 13 through March 15 for live tapings of Pivot, Teffy Talks, Professor G's Markets. Where should we begin with Esther Perel and the special live taping of Today Explained hosted by yours truly. The Vox Media podcast stage will also feature sessions on from Brene Brown and Adam Grant, Marcus Brownlee, Keith Lee, Vivian Tu, Robin Arzon and more. Visit voxmedia.comsouthbysouthwest to pre register and get a special discount on your south by Southwest innovation badge. That's voxmedia.com south by Southwest. Hope to see you there. In the wake of the release of millions of documents related to the Jeffrey Epstein case, the rich and famous are finally feeling some pain. But even with corporate resignations here and with former Prince Andrew being arrested in the uk, the question remains. How did Jeffrey Epstein remain a thriving member of the elite for decades when everyone seemed to know what he was up to?
- [22:44]
Tori Dunlop
I don't think you could be friends with Jeffrey Epstein, whose MO was obviously having sex with young girls, even as Trump said on the younger side, and
- [22:52]
Astette Hernton
not know his MO Untangling the Epstein conspiracy. That's this week on Today, explained every weekday and now on Saturdays.
- [23:11]
Host of Gray Area Friday
So all this pronatalism stuff on the right. And again, pronatalism is just a fancy word for people who want us to have more children and want a government policies that make it easier to do so. All that energy on the right, how what is that actually about? What is it? Is it the birth rate, civilizational crisis that's that's motivating that? Or is it not just that we need more babies, but that we need the right kind of babies so that we can have the right kind of country? You know, hint hint, wink wink, right?
- [23:51]
Anna North
I mean, I think, you know, the when people worry about the birth rate, the to my mind, the most rational concern is that as the population gets older, it will be harder for young people to care for elders will have economic problems because there will be like a large population of people who are not working but who are getting Social Security and other benefits, you know, that it will cause sort of a care crisis and an economic crisis. I think it's rational to be concerned about that and we can think about ways of mitigating that problem. At the same time, it is hard to separate this rhetoric from sort of racial ideology, frequently, pronatalist rhetoric, frequently, but not like, not always. But sometimes pronatalist rhetoric is coupled with suspicion around immigration, in part because a lot of problems with birth rate could be to some degree solved by liberalizing immigration policy. So if you're very worried about not having enough young people in the country, why wouldn't you let young people come and make a life here? And so you do get exactly the question that you posed. Well, which families do you want to have more babies? Is it only white families? Because we have this long, long history in America of privileging white childbirth and white motherhood in particular, and wanting white mothers to have lots of children, but not wanting mothers of color to have lots of children and not wanting poor mothers to have lots of children. So it's just very, very hard to separate the current moment from this very racist history and the way that America talks about children and childbearing.
- [25:40]
Host of Gray Area Friday
Well, that's the reason I asked about the, what's motivating the, the pronatalism. Right. Because the motivations actually matter insofar as it will impact the sorts of policies you ultimately want. Right. If your interest is in making, you know, family life more, you know, feasible for everyone, that's different than if your primary interest is, you know, preserving a particular culture. You know, I don't. If that's what's driving it, I don't think that will result in policies that will benefit everyone.
- [26:16]
Anna North
Yeah, I mean, something that I've been thinking a lot about recently has been the question of sort of which children are valued in America. So there has been a lot of very public concern, especially though not exclusively on the right, about people aren't having enough babies. Americans aren't having, having enough babies. We gotta have more American children. At the same time, policies of the current administration have done and are doing real harm to children around this country. And we know from the first Trump administration and the family separation policy that those separations were incredibly traumatic for your children and had long lasting effects. And now current immigration policy is causing those same kinds of traumas again, either by detaining children and separating them from their parents, or just by inducing an enormous amount of fear. You know, there are families who are sheltering in place almost the way that they did during the pandemic because they're afraid to go outside and have someone detained or deported. I will say, too, that in my reporting, overwhelmingly people who work with kids said it's not just children from immigrant families who are experiencing anxiety and stress and strain over immigration enforcement policy right now. All children are reporting these problems. Children from all backgrounds, you know, are sort of feeling the effects of this extremely traumatic policy that's being enacted on kids that they know or kids that they're in class with. I have been continuing to report on this, and I just continue to be really concerned about, you know, like, a really vulnerable population, which is young children. Right. And a population that, in a lot of rhetoric, is supposed to be very highly valued. And yet when those young children are immigrants or come from an immigrant family, it seems that their lives and their health have been really deeply devalued right now.
- [28:16]
Host of Gray Area Friday
Yeah, it's. I guess it's just not a. It's a. Well, I guess it's a question we shouldn't have to ask, but apparently we do when we're having these conversations about the importance of children and having them. You know, this sort of assumption is that, well, all children are valuable and we want. We want all people to have them. But that's clearly not the case across the board. So, you know, you. You strike me as someone who's, I think, as like, sober and optimistic as one can be. Like, just in terms of, like, you know, where we're headed here. Do you think this situation is going to get better or worse? Not just like, with the particular, like, the ICE situation, all that. Just in general, just the gap between men and women, like, the future of families in this country and whether or not it will be a place where, you know, that life is possible for the people who want it. Or do you. You worry that things might get worse before they get better?
- [29:24]
Anna North
You know, I think part of my general skepticism about anything changing very much is, like, I tend not to, like, put that much stock and ide ideas about, like, this generation is the worst generation or this generation is a lost generation or whatever. Like, I think we all, like, are terrible and we all are great.
- [29:41]
Astette Hernton
But
- [29:44]
Anna North
I don't want to say I, like, feel super optimistic right now about a lot of things in 2026, but I do, like, have a reasonable amount of faith in young people. And, you know, I think that Gen Z and Gen Alpha coming up behind them are smarter and more empathetic than people sometime give them credit for.
- [30:13]
Host of Gray Area Friday
What are the main takeaways of the foreign policy section from Donald Trump's State of the Union address. I do think they've made a decision to elevate domestic issues. As we head towards the midterms, we'll see if that sticks because he keeps getting drawn back to the foreign policy issues. I'm John Finer. And I'm Jake Sullivan and we're the hosts of the Long Game, a weekly national security podcast. This week we'll react to President Trump's State of the Union address, the situation with Iran, and the eruption of violence involving cartels in Mexico. The episode's out now. Search for and follow the Long Game wherever you get your podcasts.
- [30:49]
Tori Dunlop
This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm joined by her first 100K, aka Tori Dunlop, a fellow personal finance creator who's changing how an entire generation thinks about money. Tori's journey is a masterclass in turning personal financ finance wins into a platform that empowers millions. She opens up about the real strategy behind hitting that six figure milestone without the typical privileged blind advice, and how she's redefining what it means to be a wealthy woman in 2026. We're diving deep into investment strategies for real people with real budgets and why financial feminism isn't just a buzzword, it's a movement. Get ready for an unfiltered conversation about money, entrepreneurship, and what it really takes to build both personal wealth and a business empire. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com YourRich BFF.
- [31:38]
Host of Gray Area Friday
What are you working on next? What? I mean, your whole newsletter is just sort of about like spotting trends in the wild as it relates to kids and stuff. I don't know what what's coming around the bend? What do you what are you thinking about in this space? What do you think people should be paying attention to?
- [31:55]
Anna North
So another parent recently told me that a lot of boys are using ChatGPT to help them talk to girls. I am curious about this. I'm curious girls are doing it too, so I might look into that. And then on sort of a more sober note, I continue to be interested in impacts of ICE on kids. And I'm starting to work on a story looking at parallels between what's going on now with ICE and the isolation that people felt during the pandemic. So a lighter story and a heavier
- [32:29]
Host of Gray Area Friday
story to end on a lighter note then is the whole 6, 7 thing. Is that over? Is that fucking over finally?
- [32:35]
Anna North
I mean, kids will still definitely say it, don't get me wrong, but it's all it's like kind of with a wink. Like, they know. It's like kind of, it's kind of cringe now. Like. Yeah, it's pretty much over.
- [32:46]
Host of Gray Area Friday
Yeah, I thought it was over, too. And then I had a birthday last week and my kid had six, seven, put on my birthday cake.
- [32:53]
Anna North
So, I mean, that's funny. Happy birthday.
- [32:55]
Host of Gray Area Friday
It's not dead here.
- [32:56]
Anna North
Okay, good to know.
- [32:57]
Host of Gray Area Friday
But is chicken banana, is that the new, is that the new thing that they're going to be annoying older people
- [33:02]
Anna North
with in, in my house? That is the thing they have been deploying for the last several weeks and continue to gleefully deploy. So who knows? I don't think it's reached the level of, like, cultural ubiquity of 6, 7, and I don't think it will, but it's definitely like, that's the new thing, at least where I am.
- [33:19]
Host of Gray Area Friday
Great. All right, Anna, this is great. Thank you so much for, for joining us one last time. What is the name of your newsletter? Where can people go to subscribe to it and where can they go to just follow your work?
- [33:32]
Anna North
Yeah, my newsletter is called Kids Today. You can subscribe@vox.com you can also read my other work there. I'm just Anna north at Blue sky and my latest novel is called Bog Queen.
- [33:46]
Host of Gray Area Friday
This episode was produced by Beth Morrissey and Thor Neuer, edited by Jorge Just, engineered by Shannon Mahoney and Christian Ayala. Theme song by Emma Munger. The show is part of Vox. Support Vox's journalism by joining our membership program today. Go to Vox.commembers to sign up and if you decide to sign up because of this show or Anna, let us know.