The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Episode: How to change your personality
Date: March 3, 2025
Guest: Olga Khazan, Staff Writer at The Atlantic and author of Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change

Episode Overview

This episode explores the nature of personality, the science behind personality change, and practical strategies for transforming aspects of yourself you’d like to improve. Host Sean Illing talks with Olga Khazan about her year-long personal experiment to shift her own personality traits, weaving together research, philosophy, and lived experience. The discussion is honest, relatable, and grounded in both scientific nuance and day-to-day realities.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

What Is "Personality"? (02:15–03:25)

• Definition: Consistent thoughts and behaviors that we exhibit daily, which help us achieve our goals.
  • “Personality is the consistent thoughts and behaviors that you have every day. And some researchers think...they also help you achieve your goals.” — Olga Khazan (02:37)
• Performance vs. Essence:
  • Personality includes performative aspects—we can act out traits as needed—but generally we revert to our baseline patterns when not trying to change.

The Big Five Traits (04:43–05:52)

• Neuroticism, Extroversion, Agreeableness, Openness, Conscientiousness are widely accepted frameworks in psychology.
• Other models (e.g., Myers-Briggs) are less scientifically trusted.
• The Big Five is “the best we have,” but not without flaws, especially across different cultures.
  • “It is valid, it has weaknesses...but it's sort of the best we have right now.” — Olga (05:48)

Why Change? Shame & Motivation (05:52–08:07)

• Desiring personality change isn’t self-rejection.
  • “I did want to change, and I also love myself. The two are not mutually exclusive.” — Olga (06:12)
• Small stressors would spark “meltdowns”—her high neuroticism was impeding her ability to enjoy life, so she set out to change this.

The Inner Experience of Neuroticism (08:07–10:45)

• Catastrophizing:
  • Yes, it’s part of neuroticism, tied to anxiety and feeling threatened.
  • “Worry” is self-soothing behavior that actually increases anxiety.
    • “People who are very anxious think that if you just worry enough, you won’t be anxious anymore. But...it can make you more anxious.” — Olga (09:31)
• Discomfort with Uncertainty:
  • Modern life is about living with uncertainty, not letting it dominate.

Agreeableness: Upsides and Boundaries (11:07–12:15)

• Agreeableness: Warmth, empathy, trust.
• Downsides: Can encourage people-pleasing and poor boundaries.

Which Traits Are Hardest to Change? (12:15–13:56)

• Neuroticism is hardest; changing it involves mindfulness, which Olga found challenging.
  • “I am not a natural meditator...I kind of have a loop of ongoing concerns and worries and to-do list.” — Olga (12:48)
  • Letting go of anxiety feels risky: “...on some level...anxiety is protective...It’s like the fire under me.” (13:17)

Impact of Meditation (13:56–15:30)

• Serious meditation for six months reduced Olga’s depression and, to a lesser extent, anxiety.
• Buddhist teachings were pivotal:
  • “Things happen that we don’t like”—a lesson in self-acceptance and not blaming oneself for every setback. (14:31)

What’s the “Best” Personality? (15:30–16:51)

• If happiness is the goal:
  • Moderately high (but not extreme) levels of all five traits correlate most with wellbeing.
• Extroverts are consistently found to be happier:
  • They interpret ambiguous situations more positively and have more social connections.
    • “The evidence that extroverts are happier is pretty consistent...the reasons why are less clear.” — Olga (16:51)
    • “An extrovert would be like, oh awesome, I just need to introduce myself...” — Olga (17:42)

Is Personality Fixed? The “Set Like Plaster” Idea (20:36–22:16)

• Personality is not set at 30; natural changes occur as people age:
  • “People get less neurotic as they get older...Most people in those studies change on at least one personality trait from young adulthood to late adulthood.” — Olga (21:11)
• New research shows intentional personality change is possible via specific activities and interventions.

Nature, Nurture, and “Tinkering at the Margins” (22:16–24:36)

• Some traits are, indeed, genetically driven and show early.
• But interventions—small “tweaks”—can make a meaningful difference:
  • “A lot of therapy is basically just tinkering at the margins.” — Olga (23:46)
  • 10% happier is “a lot.” (24:01)

Changing Thoughts vs. Behaviors (24:36–27:50)

• Behavioral Change:
  • Traits like conscientiousness are easiest to change via action—organization, making to-do lists, decluttering.
    • “If you do enough of that stuff regularly and consistently, that is conscientiousness.” — Olga (25:17)
• Thought-Based Change:
  • Harder, requires challenging automatic thinking (e.g., neuroticism).
• “Fake it till you make it:”
  • “Fake it till you make it is a reasonable way to do personality change.” — Olga, citing Nate Hudson (26:50)
  • Sometimes, action precedes belief—attending improv, for example, led to genuine enjoyment after initial dread.

Improv and Stepping Outside Comfort Zones (27:50–29:44)

• Improv classes forced Olga to act extroverted; ultimately transformative and enjoyable despite the initial fear.
  • “It's all about learning that other people can supply part of the interaction. You’re not responsible for everything going right.” — Olga (28:22)
  • Lesson: Social chaos is okay—improv teaches flexibility and reduces self-blame in social settings.

When Not to Keep Forcing Change (31:25–32:31)

• Know when to stop: If something isn’t moving you toward your values or brings no enjoyment, it’s okay to quit.
  • “Trying something doesn’t mean you’re stuck with it for life.” — Olga (32:16)

The “Upside” of Negative Traits (33:02–34:13)

• Some level of neuroticism/anxiety can be beneficial—motivates action and care, e.g., for a sick child.
  • “Anxiety is in some ways a way of caring.” — Olga (34:05)
  • Total removal isn’t the goal; it’s about management.

Practical Interventions & Takeaways (34:13–37:09)

• Concrete Strategies:
  • Extroversion: Sign up for events with built-in accountability.
  • Conscientiousness: Start by decluttering physical space and commitments.
  • Neuroticism: Meditation; even just as an experiment.
• Mindset:
  • Accept negative feelings, commit to your values, and take action (the ACT approach).
    • “Acceptance...seems really fundamental...add so much unnecessary suffering when we resist those feelings.” — Sean (35:46)
• Discomfort Is Part of Change:
  • The first attempts at new behaviors feel awkward but get easier over time.
• Agency Is Key:
  • You must believe change is possible or you’re unlikely to pursue it.
    • “If that’s truly what you think, you probably aren’t going to try to change, and you probably won’t change.” — Olga (37:24)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On worry as a “behavior”:
  • “Worry is actually, it's a behavior, it's almost like a self-soothing behavior.” — Olga (09:31)
• Accepting discomfort:
  • “I'm gonna feel uncomfortable. I'm not gonna like this at first, but it's important to me that I keep doing this...” — Olga (36:31)
• On the limits of change:
  • “Trying something doesn't mean you're, like, stuck with it for life.” — Olga (32:16)
• On beneficial anxiety:
  • “Anxiety is in some ways a way of caring.” — Olga (34:05)

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:37 | Olga defines personality | | 04:43 | The Big Five personality traits explained | | 06:12 | Explaining the motivation for personality change | | 08:27 | Discussing catastrophizing and neuroticism | | 09:31 | Anxiety as self-soothing; the habit loop explanation | | 11:24 | The upside and pitfalls of agreeableness | | 12:28 | Which traits are hardest to change? Neuroticism focus | | 13:56 | The effects of meditation on personality | | 15:56 | What traits predict happiness and wellbeing? | | 16:51 | Why extroverts are (usually) happier | | 20:59 | The set-like-plaster idea and research on personality evolution | | 24:36 | Thoughts vs. behaviors in change | | 26:50 | “Fake it till you make it” as a credible strategy | | 28:04 | Improv’s impact on extraversion | | 31:25 | Knowing when to stop trying to change | | 33:02 | The value in negative traits | | 34:28 | Concrete steps for changing personality traits | | 35:46 | The importance of acceptance and the ACT approach | | 37:24 | Necessity of believing change is possible |

Conclusion

This episode challenges the idea that personality is fixed and instead presents a hopeful—yet realistic—case for intentional change. Backed by both lived experience and research, Sean and Olga offer a nuanced look at why and how to change, the value of self-acceptance, and the practical steps anyone might take. The conversation is full of warmth, humor, and actionable insight, making it a valuable listen for anyone reflecting on their own qualities—or ready to “tinker at the margins.”