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- [00:00]
A
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Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app Download today. I think all of us at some point have wondered why we are the way we are. Maybe you're a little neurotic, a worrier, or maybe you're a tad abrasive, confrontational, or a bit evasive. Maybe you don't think enough about others. Or maybe you do, but just a little too much. We see our faults as faults, but aren't they really just our personalities? And what is that exactly, a personality? Is it something we're born with? Does it shift over time? Can we think and act our way into being a different and hopefully better person? I'm Sean Iling and this is the gray area. Today's guest is Olga Hazan. She's a staff writer at the Atlantic and the author of the book Me but the Science and Promise of Personality Change. The book is a joy to read, full of ideas, but also personal in the sense that Olga documents her year long effort to change things she doesn't like about her own personality. Along the way, she does a nice job of weaving in the science and marking the limits of what we know and don't know. It's honest, curious, and reflective. And so, it turns out, is Olga. So I invited her on the show. Olga Hazan, welcome to the show.
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A
Thanks so much for having me.
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B
Let's start with the basics here, because personality is one of those words that are one of those concepts that we all intuitively understand what it signifies, at least loosely, but it is pretty tricky to define. You've now written a book on it, so give me your neatest, clearest definition.
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A
Yeah, personality is the consistent thoughts and behaviors that you have every day. And some researchers think that in addition to just having those thoughts and feelings and behaviors, they also help you achieve your goals. So depending on what your goals are, your personality kind of helps you get there. An example of this would be the personality trait of agreeableness, which helps you make friends and social connections. So people who tend to be more agreeable also tend to value friendships and connections and achieve more of those.
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B
You used the word consistent there. To what extent is personality just a performance and to what extent is it something much more concrete?
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A
So personality is in some ways a performance. Let's say you describe yourself as an introvert, but you have to give a big talk and it's very important to your career that this talk go well, right? You are probably going to perform to a certain extent extroversion, or let's say you're going into a room full of investors and you have to raise money for your startup, but you're just a very introverted coder guy who just wants to code all day and not talk to anyone. You're going to perform extroversion in that situation too because it's very important for to you, you to get whatever is at the end of that performance, the money or the, you know, professional accolades or whatever comes with it. You know, it doesn't have to be financial. It could be, you know, going on a first date is kind of a performance as well. So we do all perform elements of these traits every single day. But what most researchers think is that there is sort of a tendency that we all have toward a certain pattern of behaviors and thoughts that are more or less consistent, especially if we don't try to change them in any meaningful way. That like you kind of get up and you have like these like little patterns that you fall into. And that's sort of like your quote unquote natural personality.
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B
So we have what people call the big five personality traits. Neuroticism, extroversion, agreeableness, which you just mentioned, Openness to experience and conscientiousness. Are these categories generally accepted in the field of psychology? And how useful do you find them?
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A
They are generally accepted. This is, that's now like if you read a personality study, it will be most likely based on the big five. So things like Ania Graham and Myers Briggs are not generally accepted. That said, they are imperfect. There are some cultures that have traits that are very important in those cultures that the big five doesn't really pick up as much. Meanwhile, things like openness, it's sort of a catch all. Like it doesn't really, it doesn't really map very cleanly onto, onto someone's personality as other people would observe it. So yeah, it is valid, it has weaknesses. But personality is so hard to measure and kind of scientifically get your head around that. It's sort of the best that we have right now.
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B
Well, part of the inspiration for this project is that you wanted to change some things about yourself. So what did you want to change? And why don't you love yourself, Olga? Don't you know you're good enough and smart enough and people like you? Why do you want to change?
- [06:12]
A
Yeah, so I did want to change, and I also love myself. The two are not mutually exclusive. They though I know that it can feel that way that, like, if you admit that you want to change, that it can feel like you're saying that you don't love yourself. But I think that's where, like, the idea of personality traits as tools to help you achieve your goals can be really helpful, because we all have goals we want to achieve, even if we all like our lives and ourselves. And for me, what I realized is that things were going well. I had a pretty nice life. You know, nothing was seriously wrong, but my reactions to situations were not benefiting me. They were kind of undermining me and making me not able to enjoy my life. So I start the book out with this actually great sounding now as a new parent, this great sounding day in Miami, where honestly all that happened is that I got a bad haircut, then immediately had to get professional photos taken, then got stuck in traffic, and then had this like, weird debacle with a grocery store shopping cart. And it honestly just like, because of my high neuroticism at the time, the accumulation of all of those, like, small things made me have like, this epic meltdown when I got back to my hotel. And I realized that that kind of happened a lot in various ways. Like small things would happen that would make me kind of not able to appreciate the big picture or not able to just be happy with what I have or be grateful. And so that's really what I wanted to work on, is sort of appreciating my life for what it was. And also just, you know, outside of neuroticism, I. I really, like, I was feeling the COVID social isolation, and I wanted to deepen my. My social connections as well. So that's why I wanted to change.
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B
Would you say that you had or have a team tendency to catastrophize? Because I do. And I. I don't know if that's a function of neuroticism or something else, but I would say that is the one thing that I'm trying most aggressively to stop. Is that tendency part of neuroticism or is it a little more complicated than that?
- [08:27]
A
Yeah, it's Definitely part of neuroticism. You know, neuroticism is sort of the trait that's. So to kind of simplify it, it's associated with depression and anxiety. And basically all those are, are just like a feeling of threat. Like you just constantly see threats everywhere. You, the reason you're catastrophizing is not because like you're silly or because you're not realistic, but because like you kind of can see the threats coming from every direction and you're like, how do I prevent those from happening? And that's what makes people who are high in neuroticism so miserable.
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B
Well, I like the, I think it was Judd Brewer argument that you talk about in the book that anxiety is a habit loop where anxiety triggers the behavior of worry, which feels like it's a temporary relief, but really it just makes us more anxious in the long run. And this is something, this is something neurotic people do by default, right? I mean, it's just the first instinct.
- [09:31]
A
Oh yeah. I always thought anxiety and worry were the same thing. But worry is actually, it's a behavior, it's almost like a self soothing behavior. And people who are very anxious think that if you just worry enough, you won't be anxious anymore. But instead worry kind of sometimes can make you more anxious. Like you're never going to get to the end of the worrying.
- [09:53]
B
Well, it's also about the discomfort with uncertainty. Right. You talk about like the nurag person is the one who gets the, you know, have a second. Do you have a second slack from your boss and freaks out? You know, I'm the type, if I get there, do you have a second out of nowhere from the boss? You know, I'm, I'm filing for food stamps like, like before lunch, you know, I mean, it's just, my mind just goes there. Okay, this is becoming too much about me already.
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A
But anyway, yeah, I'm right there with you.
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B
But uncertainty is wrapped up with this, right? It's just, it's an uneasiness about what the future might hold and our ability to control or not control. And so you just, you're just anxious about, about the world. And I mean, I'm sure there's evolutionary utility in that, but. But boy, past a certain point it just becomes pathological. Really.
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A
Yeah, I mean that's, that's a huge part of it is like is. Is, you know, neuroticism is all intertwined with a feeling of wanting control, of really fearing uncertainty. You know, in the, in the modern world, it's all about learning how to live with uncertainty and accept that there is uncertainty in the world, you know, without letting it rule you. Basically this fear of uncertainty.
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B
What about agreeableness? Agreeableness sounds pretty agreeable. I mean who. Nobody wants to be called disagreeable, I don't think. But is agreeableness more complicated than that? I mean, how much agreeableness is too much? When do we need to be a little disagreeable?
- [11:24]
A
Yeah, agreeableness was one of the ones that I was working on and it's basically like warmth and empathy toward others and also trust. And that element of agreeableness can be really good and it can deepen your relationships and give you more fulfilling friendships. Where some people say that they're actually too agreeable and they want to pare back is when they feel like they're being people pleasers and they feel like people kind of walk all over them or like they don't know how to say no. So part of agreeableness is like learning how to communicate boundaries, how to like make friends, but also not just by saying yes to everything that your friends ask of you and to still, you know, to still have your own boundaries and your own things that you're, you're willing and not willing to do.
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B
So for your year long personality transformation project, you did focus on, on all five of these traits to varying degrees. Which did you find was the hardest to tweak in any direction?
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A
So neuroticism was the hardest by far for me. It, it is like because the way to improve on neuroticism is meditation or like any kind of mindfulness practice. You know, it can be like yoga, not core power, like slow contemplative yoga. You know, it can be different, different forms of mindfulness, but it's, it's basically mindfulness. And I found that really challenging. Like I, I am not a natural meditator. I kind of have a loop of like ongoing concerns and worries and to do list when I'm not you know, thinking about anything. You know, I, I don't like it when people are too relaxed. I find that irritating.
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B
Really? Why?
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A
I just like, you know, I think it was, it was like a little bit hard for me to let go of my anxiety because on some level I think, and I still sometimes kind of think this, I think that like anxiety is protective, at least for me. Like it like forces me to do things and it helps me. Like it like is like the fire under me. And I think at times I was a little bit like, oh sure, this is fine for like people who don't have a lot going on, but like, I need my anxiety.
- [13:47]
B
How long did you try meditating? I mean, did you ultimately find it to be helpful? Did you, did you score less neurotic at the end of that practice?
- [13:57]
A
I think I like did meditation really, really seriously for about six months of this. And it did work in the sense that my neuroticism went down. But when I said that neuroticism is depression and anxiety, it was actually mostly my depression score that went down. So I became less depressed and my anxiety also went down, but it was still like quite high. It was not as high as it had been, but it didn't go away completely. But I think one reason why I became less depressed is that the class that I took, which was called mbsr, it was the meditation class that I took, had a lot of like Buddhist teachings that were part of it. So one of the things that my meditation teacher said was things happen that we don't like. And for me, even though obviously things happen that we don't like, I realized that I was someone who, when things would go wrong, I would start to blame myself very intensely and I would have this like, very intense self blame that would be very hard to break out of. Even if it was something that was like, clearly not my fault, it was, you know, like an act of God or like really awful traffic or like you know, just, just something that, that had nothing to do with me. You know, I would start to be like, well, I should have left earlier, I should have blah, blah, blah. I should have predicted this. And I think just this reminder that things happen that we don't like and that everyone has things that happen in their life that they would rather not happen. And like, we all have to deal with that. I don't know, that was like weirdly very helpful to me.
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B
What is the scientifically best personality and that. Look, there is a part of my philosophical soul that shudders even at asking this question, because I don't think science can make these kind of value judgments. But what I'm getting at is, you know, what does the research on happiness and personality tell us about what kinds of traits tend to be most correlated with happiness and well being and a flourishing life?
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A
If your goal is happiness, which I am not saying that it has to be, there's more to life than happiness. But if as far as like happiness, well being, longevity, all those goodies, it's basically being high but not too high on all of the five traits. So being pretty extroverted, pretty agreeable, Pretty open to experiences, quite very conscientious and then very emotionally stable.
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B
You say in the book that extroverts are happier in part because they interpret ambiguous stimuli more positively. How true is this? I mean, I'm sure there are some people out there who might find. Find this kind of claim a little crude. So how clear is the evidence on this? How confident are we that extroverts in general are happier? I mean, they, they certainly look like they're having more fun, but that's anecdotal.
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A
So the evidence that extroverts are happier is pretty consistent. It's been replicated like quite a few times, including by researchers who weren't connected to the original studies and were like dubious. And they replicated it. And like the one researcher who did that, who I talked to, is himself an introvert. So it is pretty clear the reasons why are less clear. So as you mentioned, one interpretation is that they, you know, they walk into a room full of people and they're all strangers and they don't immediately get a smile out of anyone. Like, it's just kind of like, kind of a straight face kind of. People are like, what are you doing here? I, an introvert would be like, oh my God, I'm not supposed to be here. Nobody likes me. Like I, you know, I need to leave. Like, you know, kind of just like flee, flee, flee.
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B
It's that self talk, right? All that, all that self chatter.
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A
Right, right, right. An extrovert would be like, oh, awesome. Like I just need to introduce myself around and like, like pretty soon, like people will warm up to me. Like they just like have a different interpretation of events that, that helps them be happier. They are more active. Like they're just always out and doing things. Like the people who are signed up for a million clubs and things are extroverts. And they have more social connections, not just friends. They also have more like weak ties. Like more acquaintances, just people they talk to throughout the day and that helps them feel happier. This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Choiceology is a show all about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Each episode shares the latest research in behavioral science and dives into themes like can we learn to make smarter decisions? And the power of do overs. The show is hosted by Katie Milkman. She's an award winning behavioral scientist, professor at the Wharton School and author of the best selling book how to Change. In each episode, Katie talks to authors, historians, athletes, Nobel laureates and everyday people about why we make irrational choices and how we can make better ones to avoid costly mistakes. Listen and subscribe@schwab.com podcast or find it wherever you listen.
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- [19:54]
A
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B
Well, let's talk about change. The science of, of personality change. As you say in the book, there is this, this idea that at around 30 our personalities are quote set like plaster. How true is that? I mean, how fixed is our personality?
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A
So that idea is sort of not considered totally true anymore. There's been quite a bit of research that shows that even when people don't try to change, they actually end up changing over the course of their lives. So one example is that people get less neurotic as they get older. They also tend to get less open to experiences. So, so if you ever notice that people get more conservative as they get older, that could be because openness to experiences goes down in studies where they follow people over decades and decades. Most of those people in those studies change on at least one personality trait from young adulthood to late adulthood, their 60s. So it's true, you're not going to be unrecognizable, probably, but people do change over time, just kind of naturally. But what kind of the heart of my book is about is about changing your personality intentionally, which is sort of an even newer branch of research where they actually ask people if they would like to change their personalities, give them activities that are meant to help change their personalities, and then kind of measure their personalities after the fact. And so then your personality would change even more.
- [22:16]
B
This part of it is so interesting to me. I mean, I've, I've had psychologists on the show before, people like Paul Bloom, who I love. I, I think he's, I think he's just fantastic. And I may be bastardizing his, his argument here. So if you're listening, Paul, you can, you can write in and tell me. But, you know, he always says something to the effect, not necessarily that we look, you are your brain, and that's it. But he does suggest that, you know, kind of like by the time you're pretty young, you know, 5, 6, 7, 8, you know, so whatever. Somewhere around there, your personality is kind of clear and it's kind of constant. You kind of are what you are, and you can tinker a little bit at the margins. And the environment matters, of course, it always matters. But that you really are sort of. You kind of are what you are, which isn't to say that you can't change anything, but you kind of are what you are. I mean, do you think that is a little overstated?
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A
Yeah, I mean, I think so. There is a little bit of truth to that. So. So part of personality is inherited, right? It's. It is genetic. So, like, in some ways, you start to see someone's personality emerge in childhood, and, like, they're gonna be kind of like that, you know, probably for the rest of their lives, like, you know, barring anything major. But when you talk about tinkering at the margins, like, that is actually, like, quite important. Like, a lot of therapy is basically just tinkering at the margins. Like, one of the books that I read kind of in. In reporting out, my book is 10% happier. And that was Dan Harris meditating every day for, like, an hour a day just to become 10% happier.
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B
That's a lot, though. 10% is a lot.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but that's so, like, it kind of is. It depends on how you look at it. Like, I was a really anxious kid, and I'm an anxious adult. You know, does that mean that I am exactly the same as I was when I was seven? I mean, you know, I'm recognizable. But I also think that I have knowledge and tools now to, like, control my anxiety a lot better, obviously, than I did when I was a kid or a teen, even a young adult. So I don't know. I think that's the. That's true. But also, the margins are really important.
- [24:36]
B
Yeah, no, there's a lot of difference, and little tweaks here and there do matter. So thoughts and behaviors are these two elements of personality. I mean, how much power do we really have to alter our behavior by consciously, deliberately altering our thoughts? How clear is that relationship? Because if it is fairly clear that that is seems like one of the more reliable ways to go about making some of these tweaks.
- [25:06]
A
The traits where it's all behavioral are Definitely the easiest to change. So conscientiousness is a good example of this. It's the one that's all about being organized and on time, eating healthy, exercising. What they found is basically that you don't have to really want it in order to become more conscientious. You just kind of have to do the stuff associated with conscientiousness. So, like, making the to do lists, making the calendar reminders, leaving, you know, whatever 10 minutes earlier, you know, decluttering your closets. Like, if you do enough of that stuff kind of regularly and consistently, that is conscientiousness. Like, you will become more conscientious. You will get stuff done and, like, achieve your goals and have a higher level of conscientiousness with some of the other ones, like neuroticism or even agreeableness. Like, the reason why they're harder to change is that you have to really want it. And it is kind of more about your thought processes and, like, challenging your thoughts and, you know, thinking about situations differently. Like, if I was to revisit that day in Florida now or in Miami, I wouldn't necessarily, like, do anything differently. I would just think about it differently, and I would be less anxious as a result of how I was thinking about it. But that is obviously harder than making a to do list.
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B
Well, I like that quote from Jerome Bruner in the book. You more likely act yourself into feeling than feel yourself into action, which kind of just feels like, fake it till you make it.
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A
So Nate Hudson, who's the main researcher that does the personality change research, I think my quote from him was, like, fake it till you make it is a reasonable way to do personality change. And that's because a lot of this is sort of like, the actions kind of make you think about things differently. So one example for me was with Extraversion, where I really did not want to go to all the stuff that I signed up for. So I signed up for, like, improv class, and I just really dreaded it every single time. I did not really want to go, but I kind of found that if I, like, made myself go, it would make me happier. And I did have a good time and I enjoyed it, but it just, like, my thought process around improv was, I'm not good at it. I'm not going to have fun. I don't like this. I'm an introvert. So that was like, sort of the clearest example of how sometimes you just kind of have to do something and the thoughts will follow from there.
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B
I want to talk more about improv. I've always wanted to do it, but again, I'm an introvert and I feel like I would just be paralyzed up there. But tell me about how long you did that and how transformative it was.
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A
Improv was probably one of the best things I did and also the scariest. I did that for about a year, but it was several sessions of improv that I guess altogether was about a year's worth. And I was at times so afraid that I froze up and, like, didn't know what to say next. But something that's really cool about improv is that, like, it's all about learning that other people can supply part of the interaction. Right? Like, you're not responsible for everything going right in improv. It's okay if things are just kind of chaotic and strange and not going perfectly. And I don't know, it's like a good lesson to have for social interaction because a lot of times when you're just out there dealing with people, it's going to be kind of crazy and you just kind of have to roll with it. And I don't know, to me, that was like a good thing to see. Imagine fast hydration combined with balanced energy. Perfectly flavored with zero artificial sweeteners. Introducing Liquid Ivy's new energy multiplier. Sugar free. Unlike other energy drinks, you know the ones that make you feel like you're glitching. It's made with natural caffeine and electrolytes so you get the boost without the burnout. Liquid IV's new energy multiplier. Sugar free hydrating energy. Tap the banner to learn more.
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B
We say that may have been too much feeling. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty, Liberty, Liberty, Liberty Savings. Very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts Foreign. Well, look, there's a. I think a very important question you pose near the end, and I want to ask it here. How do you know when to keep trying to change? I mean, how do you know when you've tried enough? I mean, isn't there some point at which you do more harm by resisting who you are and would be better off just making peace with that?
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A
Yeah, I mean, this is like, you know, it's not going to be a hard and fast rule for everyone. But what I found is that when I was doing things that were, like, no longer enjoyable on any level and were not getting me any closer to, like, what I valued or, like, what I actually wanted is sort of when I would give up on them. So the big example of this is that I led a meetup group for a while based around foreign films, which is my hobby. And I. I just, like, didn't really enjoy it. I just don't like running meetings. I. I do moderate professionally for work, but, like, I just don't like to do it in my free time, I guess. I just. And it kind of like, wasn't, you know, I didn't have that high afterward, like I did after improv, where I was like, yes, that was so fun. I kind of felt just like, oh, thank God, that's over. And to me, that was like a sign that it was maybe just time to wrap up and, like, hand it over to someone else. And I think that's okay. Like, you don't, you know, trying something doesn't mean you're, like, stuck with it for life.
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B
Yeah. And look, I ask this in part because I am sympathetic to the idea that, you know, being a little maladapted to a world that's actually pretty shitty in lots of ways isn't the worst thing. And our society has a way of conspiring to make good and honest people feel weird and unlikable. And that's a society problem, not a you problem. But also, it is generally healthy to be well adjusted. So I don't want to gloss over that either.
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A
Yeah. And I mean, even things like neuroticism, you know, in small amounts or in certain situations can have some benefits. Like, I mean, I never did away with my anxiety completely. It's now, like, at more manageable levels, but it's. It's not, like, gone. And, you know, in the last chapter, I interviewed Tracy Dennis Tiwari who is a psychologist, and she talks about how anxiety can have some positive elements. And when her son was born, he had, like, a heart condition. And she talks about how anxiety really helped her prioritize, like, finding the right specialists, you know, getting him the right treatment, coming up with a good treatment plan. You know, all of the things that are involved in caring for a sick child. It would be hard to do that stuff if you were completely not anxious. Like, if you just didn't care about anything. Like, anxiety is in some ways a way of caring. So, you know, I think it's fine to, like, find ways of living with your anxiety, but. But to not, like, do away with it entirely.
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B
Well, what. What are the most concrete practical interventions you discovered along the way that people might find useful in their own efforts to improve or align their values and actions?
- [34:29]
A
Sure. I will just toss some out that I found worked really well for me. I would sign up for something. Don't just tell yourself you're gonna go out to drinks with your friends. More like sign up for a thing that, like, requires you to be there. With improv, you couldn't miss more than two classes, so you had to go even if you didn't feel like going.
- [34:50]
B
Accountability, right? There's some accountability.
- [34:51]
A
Yeah. Like, that's what I would do for extroversion is I would sign up for a thing for conscientiousness. I would actually start by decluttering, like, if you feel like you're really disorganized before trying to, like, quote, unquote, get organized. I would just throw away as much stuff as possible. That was, like, the loud and clear thing that all the professional organizers told me is that, like, it's all about just, like, having less stuff in your life. And that can be like, you know, commitments too, and, like, sort of extraneous stuff that you're doing. And I honestly would take a meditation class for anyone who's. Who's interested in, you know, reducing their neuroticism to whatever degree. Even if not, like, it's just, like, an interesting intellectual exercise and, you know, possibly an emotional exercise.
- [35:46]
B
Yeah. I found the ACT acronym. The ACT acronym pretty handy, actually. It's, you know, accept your negative feelings, commit to your values, and take action. And you can say anything you like about that. But certainly the acceptance part seems really fundamental. I mean, one thing that comes across in a lot of the stories you tell in the book is that it doesn't matter who you are, what you do, where you are, you're going to have negative feelings all the damn time. And we add so much unnecessary suffering to our lives when we resist those feelings. Anyway, I'll let you say anything you want about that.
- [36:32]
A
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I thought I found that so helpful. And that was really how a lot of the people who I talked to who did change their personalities kind of muddled through. Because those first few attempts at, you know, being extroverted or, you know, even being conscientious can feel really uncomfortable. Like, getting up at, you know, 5:00am to go for a run is uncomfortable. Um, and so they really were just like, I'm gonna feel uncomfortable. Like, I'm not gonna like this at first, but it's important to me that I keep doing this, and so I'm gonna take action and actually do it. And I. I don't know. I think that's like, a good. A good little rule to live by for things that are that matter to you.
- [37:09]
B
How important is it to really believe in your own agency? Is that a fundamental precondition of any kind of change, to believe that it's possible that you have the freedom and the will to do that?
- [37:25]
A
The argument that I always get into with people is some people think that people never change, Right? And kind of the extension of that is like, I will never change because people never change. And if that's truly what you think, you probably aren't going to try to change, and you probably won't change. There does have to be, like, some fundamental openness to. To change in order to even, like, embark on something like this, because it takes a lot of, like, energy and courage to do some of this stuff, and you can't follow through on it if you think that, like, it's not going to work.
- [37:59]
B
All right, once again, the book is called Me, But Better the Science and Promise of Personality Change. Olga Hasan. This was fun. Thank you.
- [38:10]
A
Yeah, thanks so much for having me. This is great.
- [38:12]
B
Thank you. All right. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I know I did. Personality change is something I thought about a lot over the years, in part because I'm constantly trying to fix things about myself. This book and this conversation gave me some useful perspective on that. Both that it's completely cool to watch, want to improve things about yourself, but also it's important to make peace with who you are and not make yourself miserable fighting that. But as always, I want to know what you think. So drop us a line at the gray area@vox.com or leave us a message on our new voicemail line at 1-800-214-574.9 and once you're finished with that, please go ahead, rate and review and subscribe to the podcast. This episode was produced by Beth Morrissey, edited by Jorge Just, engineered by Christian Ayala. Fact Checked by Melissa Hirsch and Alex Overington wrote our theme music. New episodes of the Gray Area drop on Mondays. Listen and subscribe. The show is part of Vox. Support Vox's journalism by joining our membership program today. Go to Vox.commembers to sign up and if you decide to sign up because of this show, let us know. Olivia loves a challenge. It's why she lifts heavy weights and likes complicated recipes. But for booking her trip to Paris, Olivia chose the easy way with Expedia she bundled her flight with a hotel to save more. Of course she still climbed the all 674 steps to the top of the Eiffel Tower. You were made to take the easy route. We were made to easily package your trip. Expedia Made to Travel flight inclusive packages are atoll protected.