How to feel more secure

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Episode: How to Feel More Secure
Guest: Dr. Amir Levine, psychiatrist and neuroscientist
Date: June 15, 2026
Host: Sean Illing (Vox)
Book Discussed: Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life

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Overview

This episode explores the often misunderstood concept of emotional security—what it truly means, how our attachment styles shape it, and whether we can change. Host Sean Illing interviews Dr. Amir Levine, a psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and pioneer in attachment research. Grounded in neuroscience, lived experience, and practical strategies, the conversation debunks myths about attachment, challenges reductive childhood narratives, and offers tangible methods for cultivating increased security in everyday life.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

Understanding Attachment Styles (03:15–07:35)

• Attachment, Not Just for Romance:
  Dr. Levine expands attachment theory beyond dating, describing it as a fundamental part of how we relate to the world, handle uncertainty, and perceive ourselves.
• Attachment Styles Defined:
  • Anxious: Crave closeness, fear abandonment, sensitive to perceived threats in relationships.
  • Avoidant: Desire independence, uncomfortable with excessive closeness.
  • Secure: Comfortable with both intimacy and independence, not overly sensitive to potential relational threats.
  • Fearful-Avoidant (Rare): Simultaneously seek and fear closeness, highly sensitive to potential dangers.
• Spectrum, Not Boxes:
  “We can actually have different attachment style with different people… It’s a spectrum.” (Amir Levine, 06:17)
• Attachment Across Life:
  Originates in infancy but persists throughout life, shaping adult relationships and even everyday interactions.

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The Nature of Security (06:43–09:48)

• What Is Security?
  Security isn’t merely a lack of anxiety—it’s a baseline state of physiological and psychological stability.
• Societal Mismatch:
  Many societal norms aren’t aligned with humanity’s innate needs for safety and predictability.
• Dr. Levine's Book Structure:
  • Part 1: The “secure brain”—neural/biological underpinnings.
  • Part 2: Living in secure mode, even with “insecure” tendencies.
  • Part 3: The “secure mind”—beliefs/narratives that limit potential.

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Debunking the ‘Childhood Is Destiny’ Myth (10:24–14:34)

• Therapy Narrative Challenge:
  The direct cause-and-effect story (“I am this way because of my parents”) is scientifically shaky.
  • “There’s very little effect of parental behavior on adult attachment style. The maternal effect was something around, like, it contributed maybe 3%...” (Amir Levine, 13:33)
  • Early friendships (about 11%) have a greater impact than parenting style.
• Change is Possible:
  Focusing on environmental change and “the here and now” can be more effective for building security than dwelling on unchangeable early experiences.

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Scripts, Stories, and Secure Narratives (14:34–18:52)

• The Power (and Danger) of Personal Narratives:
  Attachment styles are “scripts” we learn: “I can’t trust anyone,” “Things always fall apart,” or, in secure people, “Tomorrow is a new day.”
• Selective Attention:
  Our brains reinforce these scripts, sometimes at the cost of noticing positive, secure experiences.
  • “Our brains are very sophisticated machinery... it actually then looks for signs that will reaffirm the script and ignores other things.” (Amir Levine, 16:04)
• Secure Priming Therapy:
  Focuses on helping people notice and build up “secure kernels”—instances in life (past or present) where they experienced true security.
  • Noteworthy anecdote: Dr. Levine’s warm memory of a secure maternal figure on a childhood vacation (16:53–18:19).

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The Cyberball Effect: Social Exclusion and the Brain (22:05–25:34)

• The Neuroscience of Exclusion:
  Explains the “cyberball effect”—a research paradigm showing the brain lights up in distress when socially excluded, producing real pain and a cascade of negative self-assessments.
  • “When they looked in fmri, they saw that areas of painful distress and self scrutiny come online. Psychologically… less self esteem, less in control of your life, life is less meaningful.” (Amir Levine, 24:04)
• Resilience to Compensation:
  Brains react poorly to exclusion, unmitigated by money, logic, or even dislike for the excluders.

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Micro-Interactions Make or Break Security (25:34–30:08)

• Everyday Attachment:
  Secure attachment is built and maintained through minor, frequent “check-ins”—not grand gestures or major events.
  • “It’s really in the tiny little interaction that we have, we have the opportunity to provide people around us with that feeling of safety.” (Amir Levine, 27:39)
• Evolutionary Roots:
  The distress of being “left out” or ghosted is hardwired—a remnant of survival mechanisms from living in small, interdependent tribes.
  • “That moment of lapse of ignoring… actually feels really dangerous to us because our brain, emotional brain formed [under threat of literal danger].” (Amir Levine, 29:25)

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Attachment vs. Personality and “Neurosis” (30:57–32:24)

• Not Just Personality:
  Sensitivity to social cues (often labeled “neuroticism”) is not a failing but a heightened radar for change in the social environment—a potential “superpower if you know how to control it.” (Amir Levine, 31:25)
• Environment Shapes Outcomes:
  In a secure environment, even high sensitivity can function positively.

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The CARP Method: Building Secure Connections (33:18–36:06)

• Reverse Cyberball — The Benefit of Hyper-Inclusion:
  When people are included, self-esteem, sense of control, and well-being rise.
• Five Pillars of Secure Relationships: CARP
  • Consistent
  • Available
  • Responsive
  • Reliable
  • Predictable
    “If I can learn to become CARP and then also teach others to be CARP with me, then I can really… help the brain settle down over time.” (Amir Levine, 34:03)
• Predictability Isn’t Boring:
  In attachment, predictability means reliability and emotional safety—not monotony.

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Strategies for Navigating Insecurity (38:09–41:58)

• It’s Not Always About You:
  Often, insecurity is a reaction to the environment, not a personal failing.
• Attention Selection:
  “Instead of looking [for security] where you’re not getting what you want, you look to the left… text the secure person who always texts you back.” (Amir Levine, 39:29)
• Breaking the Loop:
  Insecure behaviors (like repeated check-ins) can push people away, leading to self-reinforcing insecurity.

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Dr. Levine's “Two Rules of Secure Engagement” (40:05–42:51)

• Rule #1: Only one person can be upset at a time; the other calms or supports.
• Rule #2: If both are upset, both must apologize—a “mea culpa” rule.
  “From an attachment logic, things are right if you feel connected. If you apologize and connect, no one cares about who’s right and who’s wrong tomorrow.” (Amir Levine, 42:21)

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Can People Really Change? (47:51–49:33)

• Change Is Possible, Acceptance is the Start:
  “Acceptance is actually the first step before change happens… accepting, ‘Okay, this is my biology, how do I work with it?’ And then that’s when the change happens.” (Amir Levine, 49:08)
• Not Trapped by the Past:
  The idea that attachment styles are fate is too fatalistic; agency is real.

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Practical Tools: Wall Tennis With Love (45:15–47:51)

• Don’t Just Purge — Right-Size Relationships:
  For people who are inconsistent or unreliable, practice “Wall Tennis With Love”:
  • Be responsive but avoid initiating too much.
  • Maintain the bond without over-investing emotionally.
  • Focus initiating on secure, CARP-style connections.
  • “I haven’t purged him out of my life. I right size the relationship and the expectations from it…” (Amir Levine, 47:51)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We can actually have different attachment style with different people… It’s a spectrum.”
  (Amir Levine, 06:17)
• “There’s very little effect of parental behavior on adult attachment style. The maternal effect was something around, like, it contributed maybe 3%...”
  (Amir Levine, 13:33)
• “Our brains are very sophisticated machinery... it actually then looks for signs that will reaffirm the script and ignores other things.”
  (Amir Levine, 16:04)
• “The brain loves being hyper-included… there’s less inflammation, there’s more longevity, there’s immense benefit to being hyper included.”
  (Amir Levine, 33:32)
• “Acceptance is actually the first step before change happens… accepting, ‘Okay, this is my biology, how do I work with it?’ And then that’s when the change happens.”
  (Amir Levine, 49:08)
• “Attention is the rarest, purest form of generosity.”
  (Quoting Simone Weil, Amir Levine, 49:36)

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Actionable Takeaways

• Assess the everyday interactions in your relationships. Small moments drive security, not just history or major events.
• Cultivate (or seek out) CARP qualities: Consistency, Availability, Responsiveness, Reliability, Predictability.
• Challenge negative self-narratives. Consider where they came from and look for evidence of secure “kernels” in your life.
• Shift attention toward your secure connections, rather than ruminating on those who trigger anxiety.
• Acceptance of your attachment style is foundational—but not the end of change. You can always develop greater security.

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Suggested Timestamps for Key Concepts

• Attachment Styles Explained: 03:15–07:35
• What Is Security? 06:43–09:48
• Childhood vs. Adult Attachment Influences: 10:24–14:34
• Scripts and Secure Priming: 16:04–18:52
• Cyberball Effect: 22:05–25:34
• Micro-Interactions and Evolution: 25:34–30:08
• Anxious vs. Neurotic: 30:57–32:24
• The CARP Framework: 33:18–36:06
• The Two Rules/Managing Insecurity: 40:05–42:51
• Wall Tennis with Love: 45:15–47:51
• On Change and Agency: 47:51–49:33
• Parting Quote/Advice: 49:36

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Closing Advice

Dr. Levine concludes, grounded in both science and philosophy:

“Attention is the rarest, purest form of generosity… We can really make a difference in the lives of the people around us by being generous with our attention in that way.” (49:36)

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For anyone struggling with insecurity, the message is hopeful: Security isn’t a fixed trait—it’s a practice, a set of relationships, and a story you can revise, one everyday interaction at a time.

Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

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[Sean Eling]

I'm Sean Eling, and this is the gray area.

[Narrator/Host]

Today's guest is Amir Levine. He's a psychiatrist and neuroscientist at Columbia and the author of a book called the Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life. Levine thinks that we can become more secure and attached to the people around us. And how well or easily we do that has a lot to do with our environment and. And with the kinds of stories we

[Sean Eling]

tell or don't tell about who we are. Amir Levine, welcome to the show.

[Amir Levine]

Hey, I'm glad to be here.

[Sean Eling]

You know, this is one of those episodes where I feel like some of my own personal, embarrassing shit will probably come up. So that's a little scary. But, you know, these are the things we do, right?

[Amir Levine]

Yeah, I think that's probably mine, too.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I mean, look, human beings.

[Sean Eling]

That's right. That's right. And you know, this book, it's an Extension really of your earlier book on attachment patterns. And I feel like we could use a little grounding in those concepts before we dive into the new stuff. So can you just lay out very briefly the three different attachment styles that you identified in your book Attached so that we kind of know what we're working with here?

[Amir Levine]

Yeah, definitely. So they initially found those three main attachment styles anxious, avoidant and secure and was first discovered in babies. But then it was like extended and discovered that we continue to really have attachment style until the day we die, basically throughout our whole life. And the way that it works in adulthood is how comfortable we feel with intimacy and closeness. That's on one end and, and then the other domain is how much of a sensitive radar do we have a potential danger in a relationship?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So if we love to be close,

[Amir Levine]

but we're constantly worrying about is the partner available to me? Why are they not answering my call? What's happening with them, where did they go? We feel that the relationships are not stable then that when we have an anxious attachment style, if we, we want to be in a relationship because you'll see like we're human beings, we're highly, highly social species. So we want to be in a relationship, relationship.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

But then all of a sudden once we're in it, something weird happens. We kind of feel, oh my God, this person is too close to me, like stay away. And so like we don't feel too comfortable with too much closeness.

[Amir Levine]

And then also that translates into this script, a life script that I need to be independent, I have to be self sufficient. So that's an avoidant attachment style. So you're in relationships, it's like keep

[Interviewer/Co-host]

a measure of distance. So that's avoidant. Insecures are the people who love closeness

[Amir Levine]

but also are not too sensitive for potential danger. So if you want to take, you want to stay away, you want to go and walk on your own, you want to just do it on your

[Interviewer/Co-host]

own, it's fine with them.

[Amir Levine]

They're not going to see it as a potential threat or the end of the relationship.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So these are the secures of this world.

[Amir Levine]

This is warm and loving. I have to say there's one more attachment style that's more rare and it's a combination of the anxious and avoidant. It's much more rare and it's called fearful avoidant. So here you really are fantasizing about closeness and wanting relationships. But once you get into them, like you're not like, ah, it doesn't feel like you're very sensitive to Potential danger in a relationship. So it's not like the classic avoidance, like, oh, I don't need you all. It's like, no, I need you, but

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I also can't do with you.

[Amir Levine]

So with one hand you say come close and the other hand stay away. Stay away all the time. So these are the fearful avoidance.

[Sean Eling]

Yeah, I'm already seeing myself in a

[Interviewer/Co-host]

couple of these categories.

[Sean Eling]

It's making me uncomfortable.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

No, but you know, it should really make you uncomfortable. I'll tell you why.

[Amir Levine]

Because we now know and that I didn't know in the other book attached, but now we do know. And the science really shows that we can actually have different attachment style with different people. And it's not like a category that we fall into. It's a spectrum. And I think that really, actually really holds a great promise to it. And that's the whole new book. Secure is based on the idea that we can all learn to live in secure mode.

[Sean Eling]

So when we're talking about someone being emotionally or psychologically secure, what is the most important dimension of that? Is it really just about feeling safe or is it more about the absence of anxiety?

[Amir Levine]

And I think it's more about stability. It's like our. It's. It's almost like we're biological species and there's also in all biological systems, there's the. The. We always try to find the homeostasis. It's kind of like the baseline, like where like it needs. Kind of like something we always like thr.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Want to.

[Amir Levine]

There's something that we can come back to that will be like a quad baseline. And I think the whole idea of Secura can distill it into something very, very simple. Because how do we achieve it? How do we get there? It looks like such a tall order. It's basically our physiology, our brain looking for a social baseline, a safe baseline.

[Sean Eling]

So you don't think of these as discrete categories. Right. Almost no one is entirely just one of these things. We have manifestations of multiple styles.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

We do have.

[Amir Levine]

So in my. In the book I have a new insecure. I have like a new questionnaire. And I specifically, I even broadened the scope then even of things that they have in the. In on the research papers. Because I think. And now I'm actually studying it and seeing the results. And then you get a topography, like a map on which they all fall. And then you can actually really get a glimpse of your attachment topography. And I use that in secure priming therapy as the firing shot of the therapy. Like you get a glimpse okay, this is my social world now. This is my attachment map. And then it gives you. Then we build a roadmap to greater security.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And I'm pointing down because the lower quadrant is the secure quadrant.

[Sean Eling]

I bet it is. Is it better to think of security in the way you're talking about it

[Narrator/Host]

as a trait or condition, or is

[Sean Eling]

it something way broader like than that, Like a. Like a social environment that allows us to flourish? If that's the right word.

[Amir Levine]

So I really think it's like it's all of the above. And that's why I structured the book into three parts. One, part one talks about the secure brain. What is that like? So I start on the question, what does our brain need in order to feel secure? What is the social. And really going. Diving deep into the working of our social brain. What is the social brain doesn't like

[Interviewer/Co-host]

what makes it feel insecure? So really on that level.

[Amir Levine]

And we can find out that many things that we have in our society that we accept as just norms actually don't align with our social brain. So that's one. And then there's part two is how

[Interviewer/Co-host]

to live in secure mode, even if

[Amir Levine]

you have insecure attachment styles. So to learn about. Okay, what does it mean if I have this anxious or avoidant or if you flow avoidant. And then how do I understand my biology to sort of inch towards more secure mode? And then the final part is about the secure mind. And this I really delve deeper into different ideas that are holding us back from becoming more secure. So that's more like you with yourself and the different ways that you view yourself that actually is holding you back from actually living to your full potential.

[Sean Eling]

What are some of those ideas that hold people back that make us insecure? Is it self doubt, self loathing, self contempt? All the above?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

All of the above and more.

[Narrator/Host]

Great.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Now, you know, I have a whole. I like, I had like some sort of number, so I really go first.

[Amir Levine]

And the one. One of the chapters that are like my favorite chapters in the book is chapter 10 and about recasting your past from a secure stance. And it's really challenging some of our. Even some of the way that therapy is done today. When people go and really look at their past and make these causal links because. Well, because my parents, because they did this or that I'm this way. But I actually became a scientist after I learned to do psychotherapy. I have like a weird sort of

[Interviewer/Co-host]

trajectory in my life in which I

[Amir Levine]

became a psychiatrist and an adult and a child psychiatrist and all of a sudden, I pivoted and became a molecular neuroscientist. I didn't even know how to hold

[Interviewer/Co-host]

it by pet when I walked in there. But somehow I thought it could work.

[Amir Levine]

And luckily, because I had a very secure mentor, it did work. But when I became a scientist, I discovered how hard it is to establish causality. And so when I went back to the therapy room, it's like, wait a second.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I can't tell someone, because as a child, this.

[Amir Levine]

And this happened to you. That's why you're all this way now. Like, I can't really prove that. And actually, when you look at a lot of the research, you see that it doesn't really hold water. And a lot of the change that happens happens if we actually change the brain, change the environment for the brain in the here and now. So I really go into great lengths of explaining, you know, if that causal inference helps you, fine, by all means, keep it. And I have no problem with that. I see it as a narrative that can really help. And there is really a reason why you should actually tell your childhood things that have happened to you in childhood. And we can talk about what actually I think helps, how it can help, but definitely not as an immediate cause, because I can tell you what happens in session. Sometimes patients come and they feel, because this has happened to me, I'm damaged. Good. And that's it. And I can't change. And that is really not true.

[Sean Eling]

I was going to get to childhood later, but screw it, let's just do it now. I mean, because that is something I have heard what feels like a thousand times, some version of the story that your attachment patterns in adulthood are essentially molded in your childhood and dictated, you know, by family dynamics and that kind of thing.

[Amir Levine]

Right, Right.

[Sean Eling]

It seems like you.

[Narrator/Host]

There may be some.

[Sean Eling]

Not that that's entirely wrong, but you think we put too much causal weight on that story. That is too neat.

[Amir Levine]

I mean, I can give you the numbers. So they've done several studies, and the latest one actually really has the most surprising results. They follow people for 30 years, and they know their attachment style, like when they're kids, and then they know their adult attachment styles. And they saw, for example, there's very little effect of parental behavior on adult attachment style. For example, they saw that the maternal effect was something around, like, it contributed

[Interviewer/Co-host]

maybe 3% to your adult attachment style. So you decide for yourself if that's important, like, how important that is.

[Amir Levine]

And then actually, early childhood friendships contributed 11%. So neither are a lot.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I Mean, money's like around 10%, around 3%. But actually, in that particular study, early

[Amir Levine]

friendships were more detrimental to your adult attachment style.

[Sean Eling]

I think it's pretty fair to say that I've struggled with attachment most of my life, as we have all. Yeah, I'm feeling better already. I do think I've turned a corner later in life, but it was pretty late in life. Like, am I 30s, you know? And I realize you can't do a therapy session here in 60 seconds, but I think this kind of story is pretty common. What is the main danger in getting too attached to a story about who we are or why we are the way we are? Because I've got a few different stories I've been telling myself about myself, and they're probably of varying degrees of truth.

[Amir Levine]

I love that you say that because we do have different narratives, and they can all potentially create different outcomes and what attachment styles are in essence. Bowlby, who's the father of adult attachment, who's the father of attachment in general, he had this idea that attachment is a basic need, just like food and water. And at the time, the whole Freudian school was, no, no, no. Attachment happens because the mother gives food and water and, like, sustenance to the child. So then they attach to her because they learn. And he said, no, you actually got it wrong because he actually worked with kids on Ford. He actually also was during the Blitz. He saw the displaced kids from London and how they failed to thrive, even though they were giving the food and the water and everything they needed, but they didn't have the immediate family. So he lived it, and he saw that it's just as important as food and water. So I think. But attachment styles, I sort of deviated a little bit. But I'll go back to the attachment styles. There is script, and there's something that we tell ourselves about ourselves. Like, I can't trust anyone. This is just like me. It's like for every person to themselves, or I can't really. I can't say anything because the relationship will break up. Or the secure script is like, yeah, you know, things happen. This person is upset. Tomorrow is a new day.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So.

[Amir Levine]

And the problem is that our brains are very sophisticated machinery. And so what it does is it actually then looks for signs that will reaffirm the script and ignores other things. And part of secure priming therapy is to say, no, no, no, no.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I can't let you ignore this, this, this or that. Here's some additional evidence in your life

[Amir Levine]

to show you what your secure Potential is you've been ignoring it, and you've been sort of thinking, like you're sort of really focusing on that particular script. But it's just one script, and we have the ability to hold within us different scripts. So I call it secure kernels, really, in secure problem therapy and in the book.

[Sean Eling]

So is that what you're doing in therapy with patients? You're helping them rewrite their own scripts?

[Amir Levine]

It's really the way that I see it. And that's why I think I started with a story about this vacation that I took. And when I was a teenager and I went there with my sister and my sister's friend and her friend's mom. And it's just. I don't know why she agreed.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I used to tag along my sister everywhere. I was 10, she was 12, and

[Amir Levine]

her mom was so secure. Like, she even accepted that I'll go with them. And everything went so well. And that memory of the vacation really stuck in my head for a really long time. And I've been on many vacations since and really amazing places. But that really something that I keep going back to in my memory. The woman Ruth was very, very secure. And I think we all have these relationships and these people in our lives that gave us the secure kernel. So it's something that we have inside us, not just a script and experience. Even when I think about it, I feel warmth just thinking about that experience. And many of us have those experiences, but our brain chooses to ignore them or they don't take center stage. And in secure priming therapy, we try to refocus both in the past and in the present on those secure occurrences. And, like, it's almost like summoning out that potential that I believe resigns in the vast majority of us.

[Sean Eling]

Well, that's the thing, you know, we are humans, are narrative creatures. It's sort of our gift and a curse at the same time. We. We make up stories to explain the world and ourselves, and we get attached to those stories. We often form an identity around those stories. And so, like you're saying, when reality contradicts those stories, we selectively ignore that because we're so invested in them. But if the story you're invested in is making you miserable, you should let it go, right?

[Amir Levine]

And maybe you're missing out because, like, when you told me, like, something about struggling with attachment issues and that we can learn, and it's really simple skills that we can learn to actually align ourselves better without attachment. Logic.

[Narrator/Host]

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[Amir Levine]

So my bank account is safe. It feels good to save some hard earned cash. It feels good to Geico.

[Sean Eling]

You know the one thing that helped me as much as anything, actually internalizing the. The fact that nobody thinks as much about you as you.

[Amir Levine]

Oh yeah.

[Sean Eling]

And if you can, and if you can let go of that, so many neuroses will melt away. But sometimes it's hard. But that's how you get in your own head. What's going on? What did I do? Why don't they. Why don't they like me? You know what I mean? Your mind can run amok, right?

[Amir Levine]

That's true. But the thing is, I think so. That's why I love so like I've learned so much in this whole process of coming up with secure priming therapy and how to help people become more secure. Because after I wrote attached people started coming to me for therapy. Okay, how do I become more secure? And I didn't have an immediate answer then because there was just no formal therapy to help people do that. The whole attachment style is not part of clinical work in adulthood. And I stumbled on it by chance. But I think the way understanding what our social brain can and cannot take is very important. So when you describe, oh, I shouldn't let this person get to me or what they think of me get to me. So there are certain things that we can't help but respond to. And in the book I call it the cyberball effect, which is basically a set of experiments that they did to actually see how we respond to social exclusion. And these cyberbull experiments are brilliant. It's a whole body of work that

[Interviewer/Co-host]

basically it's all rest on one simple

[Amir Levine]

experiment where you, Sean, are playing a game of catch with two other figures and you're throwing the ball, you're tossing the ball to each other and all

[Interviewer/Co-host]

of a sudden they stop throwing the ball in your direction. And then what happens is that when they looked in fmri, they saw that

[Amir Levine]

areas of painful distress and self scrutiny come online. And psychologically they saw that it leads to less self esteem that you're less in control of your life and feeling that life is less meaningful. So when I came across this body of knowledge, I was actually stunned because I never thought that how much I feel life is meaningful or how much control I have over my life or my self esteem is related to how connected I am to others. And the other part of those experiments is that they showed how resistant it is to any intervention because they said, you know what, John, now I'm going to give you a bunch of money every time the ball is not thrown in your direction. And guess what happened? Nothing happened. You still have the same response. The FMRI lights up just as if you haven't gotten anything. Or they took it a step further and, and they said, okay. These two other players, they're members of the KKK and they think, okay, these are despicable people. Why would I care if they're including me or not? It doesn't matter to the brain. It still really responds really strongly. And so our brain really loathes being excluded or being ignored. And it will bring all that stuff up online and really make us feel miserable. And we can say, I shouldn't let it get to me, I shouldn't let it get to me. But guess what? It does get to us.

[Sean Eling]

Why do you think when it comes to how, how secure we feel, how much do those little ordinary social experiences matter? Right? Like not the big traumatic things, but the smaller things like being ignored or being ghosted or not hearing back from people.

[Amir Levine]

Right.

[Sean Eling]

Non responses to that text.

[Amir Levine]

Right? Right.

[Sean Eling]

Things that might be trivial in a vacuum and in many ways they are, but.

[Narrator/Host]

But do they build up over time

[Sean Eling]

and really alter our psychology, alter our social brains?

[Amir Levine]

So I think the way that people think about attachment is something like, oh, these deep relationships. But all attachment is really, it's, it's like you can think about it as a safety radar. It's like really knowing that these people like that are important to me are there and then I'm connected to them. And then they fed into the background because they gave us the safety and security that we need and we can really go and play and have hobbies and work. You can see it much more easily with kids. Like when they, like if you bring them, that's where the attachment styles were found. In the strange situation test, you bring every child to a room full of toys and immediately they start playing with all the toys. And every once in a while they look at their dad or their mom

[Interviewer/Co-host]

to see if they're there.

[Amir Levine]

And when they're there, they don't care about the mom or the dad, they

[Interviewer/Co-host]

just continue to play.

[Amir Levine]

But have them leave the room for a moment and that's it. They drop everything, they rush to the door, they bang, they cry. You give them a toy they'll throw it in your face. So really, attachment is a safety mechanism. And it depends on those momentary check ins to make sure that the. That people around us are kind of like there's a thread that connects us. That that thread, when we pull on it, we can feel that it still is connected to someone on the other end. That's all that it is. But we can't. Like the baby that checks every once in a while.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

We're the same. So we check like with the text or little ways in which we check

[Amir Levine]

to see if the other person is connected to us. And if they are, they fade into the background. So that's really the beauty of it. It's like it's really in the tiny little interaction that we have, we have the opportunity to provide people around us with that feeling of safety. And that really is the basis of living in secure mode or secure attachment. Those micro interactions, why did those little

[Sean Eling]

micro interactions, you know, being ignored or shunned or whatever, why do they sting so much? I mean, is there something in our brain that's going back to our past where we were like living in tribes of 30 to 40 people and being ostracized was like literally death?

[Amir Levine]

Yeah.

[Sean Eling]

Is it triggering? Is it, is it like going back to that in our brain?

[Amir Levine]

It's exactly.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So I only understood it when I

[Amir Levine]

went on a trip on a safari in Africa because I was like, why is it so annoying? Wouldn't it be better if we were not that?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

If our brain was like, hey, relax dude, like, it's not the end of the world. So much better. Like most of the time you drive

[Amir Levine]

in this vehicle and you can just

[Interviewer/Co-host]

like, you know, you're not really in any danger.

[Amir Levine]

But one time they had us walk outside and without the vehicle, just like we went on a walk, but there was this guy in front of us with a rifle and a guy behind us in a rifle. And they told us to walk single file and never to open up a gap between us. Because like a gap like that between us could mean that they would give.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

The predators are watching and they just need to see a little opening in

[Amir Levine]

order to sort of swoop in and do their deed. And whenever someone opened a gap, they got behind, like, hey, close the gap, close the gap.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

They were so vigilant. So you asked me that sort of. Because that moment of lapse of ignoring

[Amir Levine]

that actually feels really dangerous to us because our brain, emotional brain formed. We were just there and sort of like staying very close meant life over, becoming someone's lunch. So that's why the attachment surveys the way that it does. And that's why this small little, it's like I call it in the book, the seemingly insignificant minor interactions of everyday life, like oh Simi's, how much they matter for the brain in order to change. Because if you create like a series of secure, small momentarily things like the checking, you can in fact create, introduce your brain to a secure mode.

[Sean Eling]

I mean, so at the level of the brain, the brain's not making any distinctions here. Right. Neurochemically it is responding the same way, whether it's a truly life and death threat or that friend not calling you back for three days.

[Amir Levine]

Yeah, no, from the point of view of the brain, it's just like, wait a second, something happened, something is wrong and you know, a threat saying, our brains are very much aware. We have a baseline with every person and we're very much aware of it. You can think about it yourself, you

[Interviewer/Co-host]

know exactly who you should be expecting

[Amir Levine]

calls and when and how. And the moment, it's the radar, the moment it changes, the clock starts ticking until, whoa, what's happening here? Initially it's nothing. It's very small, I'll hear from later. But then he grows and grows. We know, our brain knows.

[Sean Eling]

Maybe part of it for me is, I don't, I don't quite know the distinction between say an attachment style and a personality type. Right. So like a lot of what you describe as insecure or anxious, to me it just sounds like neurosis. Right. I mean, is there any difference between being feeling insecure or feeling anxious and just being neurotic? Or is, is it just a neurotic person is someone who often feels insecure are anxious.

[Amir Levine]

I think there's like these biases like emanating from like Freudian time sort of that go against people with insecure attachment style. Instead of the neurosis that you're describing is the sensitivity to environmental cues. Right. I find that people with anxious attachment style who you might say are more neurotic, have this amazing ability to see, see things in the environment and spot environmental cues that others just don't have. And it's almost like a superpower, but

[Interviewer/Co-host]

they don't know how to control it, so it backfires and they get into trouble.

[Amir Levine]

That's my view of anxious attachment or neurosis. They're not at the immediate link, but that ability to spot things in their environment because. And actually there's research into that that shows that if you give people like a more secure environment, that can really flourish.

[Sean Eling]

I Guess my worry is that the more we have those kinds of little negative social experiences and you know, honestly, my God, this is something I've definitely observed in my own life, that the more we, the more those things happen, the more we start to imagine offenses and slights where they don't exist. Is that a real negative feedback loop you see in your patients?

[Amir Levine]

So what I think is. So the other part of it, when I told you about the cyberball effect, they also did this experiment that's called a reverse cyber ball. So in that experiment you can imagine yourself, Sean, you're now standing in the middle, there's someone to your right, and let's say I'm to your left. And then I'm throwing the ball to you, and then you, then you throw it back to me, and then I throw it to you again. Then you turn to the right and throw it to the person on your right. So the ball always gets thrown to

[Interviewer/Co-host]

you and you throw it, you sort

[Amir Levine]

of go between me and the other person. So now you're hyper included. And the brain loves that.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

It just simply is like in seventh heaven. Like you feel more self esteem, more

[Amir Levine]

sense of control over your life, that life is more meaningful. Like that whole area of self scrutiny is really shuts down. There's less inflammation the brain, if the brain loves something like that, then also it translates to the body too. There's less inflammation, there's more longevity. There's like this immense benefit to being hyper included. So I was really thinking, how do I create that in people's lives? And I came up with these five, this acronym of five things that are the five pillars of a secure life, which I call carp. Consistent, available, responsive, reliable and predictable. And if I can learn to become CARP and then also teach others to be CARP with me, then I can really. What you're describing, that loop that goes on, you're right. People can get hyperactivated and then they look for evidence for more of that. But when you actually create this CARP environment, that really helps the brain settle down over time and then find a way, a new baseline that's less hyper vigilant.

[Sean Eling]

You know, predictability is an interesting one. You know, I, I hear predictable and I think boring. I know, but that's not really. That's not what you're talking about though, right?

[Amir Levine]

It's.

[Sean Eling]

It's more about not forcing the other person to live in suspense. I mean, why does dealing with un. Predictable people cause so much stress?

[Amir Levine]

Not predictable like in the negative ways. Like oh God, this person's so predictable or like in. But really in the context of like being consistent, available, responsive. In that context, I'm just trying to emulate that effect of the, you know, remember the baby that looks to see if the mom or the father is there so they can continue to play. We have the same neurocircuitry. So it's just like the whole predictable thing means that if I look for a moment to see if the other person is there, they don't vanish all

[Interviewer/Co-host]

of a sudden because that really gets us going. And that's where it goes to like

[Amir Levine]

oh, why am I doing this? Did I do something wrong? I must have slighted them. They don't like me, they don't want me, their friends don't like me. All that self scrutiny, it's just like it's not there.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So predictable.

[Amir Levine]

From the point of view of an attachment, of keeping those seemees, those seemingly insignificant minor interactions in a secure baseline. It doesn't mean you can't throw someone

[Interviewer/Co-host]

a surprise birthday party or like surprise them with an amazing trip or a gift and all that. By all means, that's fine.

[Amir Levine]

It's really in that attachment context of really maintaining that consistence and availability that's so important. It's in the little things. Because it's a radar system, right?

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[Interviewer/Co-host]

Foreign.

[Amir Levine]

The impulse.

[Sean Eling]

If you're someone who does feel insecure for whatever reason is to ask well,

[Narrator/Host]

why don't I feel secure?

[Sean Eling]

But in some ways, is that question leading us in the wrong direction? I mean, do you think it's very often more about the people around us, the environment around us, and how. And how that is making us feel or not feel?

[Amir Levine]

It's. That's exactly that. I think what happens is if we don't understand who we are biologically, if I don't know, you know, I have this superpower that I'm actually sensitive to environmental cues. And yes, if this person is not going to respond to me, it's going to stay on my mind for a long time and it's going to be hard for me to let it go. Then it might be better for you to create an environment that is enriched with secure people. So that's part of what we do in secure primary therapy. But oftentimes what happens because of that distress and self scrutiny, people with more insecure attachment style or anxious attachment then start to really focus on why isn't they answering me? Why are they live? Are you there? Hello? Hey, question mark. What's happening? And then the thoughts that go on and then they forget about the people, the secure people that always text them back, that always show up for them because they're boring. There's no. The brain gravitates towards where there's something unsolved that hasn't been solved. And part of secure karmic therapy is like, you know what, it's just a shift. Instead of looking here, where you're not getting what you want, you look to the left. So instead of texting, what's happening with you? Blah, blah, text the secure person who always texts you back.

[Sean Eling]

Well, the problem for insecure people is

[Amir Levine]

that

[Sean Eling]

when you project that insecurity onto other people, it pushes them away, which just reinforces the insecurity that started the whole.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right, Exactly.

[Amir Levine]

You get into a loop of insecurity. You're right. But there are little solutions that you can find. And I call it like the two rules of a secure engagement. And it really runs deep to understanding the attachment logic. So the first rule is that only one person is allowed to be upset at the time. And what it means is, and it really lies on this whole idea that secure relationships help us feel calmer. And if we have a problem and we go to someone, let's say something bad happened to you and I'm sure you know exactly who you're going to go to and talk to about them. We have an attachment hierarchy in our brain. Sometimes for different things, you'll go to different people. But if you're securely attached to them, sometimes just a single word or a hug has the power to make you feel better right away. There's no Klonopin or Xanax in the world that can come even close to having that effect because we're so inherently social. But insecure relationships are also the most prominent instigator of emotional distress. So really attachment is at the basis of healing and, and suffering, suffering and healing from suffering. So in that moment when you're upset with someone and you get upset, then it makes more sense that only one person will be upset at the time and the other person will try to make them feel better.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

That's what secure attachment is about.

[Amir Levine]

So that's the first rule. So then there's the second rule with the fallback rule, which is called the mea culpa rule, which is like it means now it's my fault. So now if you're both upset, both have to apologize because you broke the covenant of a secure bond, which is we are responsible for each other's emotional well being.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So now you have to apologize and

[Amir Levine]

you apologize about that. And oftentimes people get really stuck on I'm right and I need to make an argument that I'm right and you have to accept it and the other like no, I'm right, I'm going to make. And it really stays stuck on the prefrontal cortex when chatter, chatter, chatter, saying, saying, saying things. But you remember that attachment is pre verbal and attachment doesn't care about who's right and who's wrong. From an attachment logic, things are right if you feel connected. So if you apologize and you can connect, then tomorrow you can discuss who's right and who's wrong. But I'll tell you what, if you can actually find that emotional resolution, no one cares about who's right and who's wrong tomorrow. It's just like a lot of chatter that the prefrontal cortex is sort of bringing about and really actually keeping you from the resolution that the attachment needs.

[Sean Eling]

So if you are trying to be more secure and who doesn't want to be more secure, is it more about looking inward and changing yourself in some way? Or is it more about self knowledge, knowing who you are, what your pathologies and your attachment styles are and then on the basis of that, reorganizing the environment around you so that it doesn't trigger the worst parts of you? Or is it some combination of.

[Amir Levine]

So it really is, it's like it's, it's a whole practice. And that's why, like, it's a. It's a new form of treatment. And so the first part is to understand what your social brain is capable

[Interviewer/Co-host]

of and stop beating yourself up from

[Amir Levine]

having that stoppable effect. So now, for example, if I see that someone at work didn't include me in something, then usually, oh, you shouldn't let yourself. You shouldn't let it get to you. I said, no, it's okay. It's getting to you because it's the cyborg effect, because that's how it is. But I can live with that. And then the last component and the last part is really realizing how you can do things in a way that actually doesn't backfire. So, for example, for someone with an anxious attachment, there's something that I call the protest regret cycle. So what happens with the protest.

[Sean Eling]

I'm sorry, Protest regret cycle.

[Amir Levine]

The protest regret cycle. You lash out.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

You lash out. Then the other person gets really upset

[Amir Levine]

and defensive, and then there's like a. There's distance. Like, then things are not going well. Then all of a sudden, even though at that moment you lashed out and you're so sure that you're in the right and you're really saying, but now you start to regret it. You want to come close to this person again. So you end up apologizing for lashing out. But now the focus is more about you lashing out. You never got a chance to actually somehow communicate or find a way to resolve the non carp behavior that started it all.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And so you get into this loop

[Amir Levine]

of, like, lashing out, then regretting, then apologizing, but never really addressing the sometimes very simple attachment fixes that could have been addressed so, so easily. And we have those stoppable moments everywhere in our life.

[Sean Eling]

Do you tell patients to inventory the people in their lives and purge whoever doesn't make the carpenter cut? So is that a thing?

[Amir Levine]

So here's the thing. I'm glad that you asked me about that, because there's no purging.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Okay. I mean, first of all, tell me you can't. But there is something that I call.

[Amir Levine]

There's. For people who have any. An anxious attachment style. There's a tool that's called wall tennis with love and wall tennis with love. I don't know if you ever played tennis against the wall.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

When I was a kid, I played tennis against the wall sleep. So you practice. So whatever you dish the wall, the wall will return with maybe a tiny

[Amir Levine]

less velocity in the same direction. It never initiates so in Wall Tennis with Love, what you do is you keep the attachment thread going, but you don't initiate too much. So, for example, I have a friend that I'm doing Walt Tennis with love with because we've been friends for more than 20 years, and it's been a difficult. I mean, I love him. I like. I really like. We're very connected and it's been. But it's been a very difficult relationship. And there was a year and a half when we never. We didn't even speak to each other, and then we started talking again. So now in Walt Tennis Love, I'm the wall. Like, he will text me and he'll say hi, and I'll immediately text back, hi, because I'm the wall, right?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And with love.

[Amir Levine]

So I'm responding always, never giving him the feeling that there's no one at the other end. I'm being carp. A week then goes by, I don't hear anything. A week later, I get another high and it's like, immediately it's like, hi.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Two days later, he calls me. I answer the phone and we have a really nice conversation. And it's warm and it's loving.

[Amir Levine]

But if I have something that bothers me that I need to talk to with someone, I'm not going to call him. I'm not going to initiate stuff with him or not going to start texting him because then he oftentimes wouldn't text me back for weeks on end and he would start like, that cybol effect will sort of kick in. I'm not doing any of that. It's all Tennis with love. And it actually saved our relationship. I haven't felt as close to him in a long, long time. Because in the past, I would text him, I wouldn't hear back, and I would start having these things that you described, Sean, like, what's happening? I see.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Oh, my God, he's texting someone else.

[Amir Levine]

Is he ignoring me? I have none of that with Walt Tennis with love. And instead, if I do want to initiate someone, I do it to the secure people in my life. So I haven't purged him out of my life. I right size the relationship and the expectations from it in a way that allows my attachment system to stay quiet. That homeostasis that we like, we. That we crave in order to be more secure.

[Sean Eling]

Do you really think people can change or that we are not trapped?

[Amir Levine]

Yeah. Didn't you just say that you changed in your 30s and you were able to do more?

[Sean Eling]

Well, yeah, Amir, but it would have been nice to not have to be almost 40 before I did it.

[Amir Levine]

I agree.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

That's why I wrote the book that I did.

[Sean Eling]

But even still.

[Amir Levine]

I agree with you. But even still, some of that.

[Sean Eling]

Some of that shit is still there.

[Amir Levine]

Of course, of course. I would have. Certainly would have benefited from all this information when I was much younger. I definitely agree with you.

[Sean Eling]

It's not like I'm all that steeped in the therapeutic culture and some of the literature, but I've always felt like a lot of it is.

[Amir Levine]

Is.

[Sean Eling]

Is too fatalistic. You know, it's like I'm anxious, I'm avoidant. This is my pattern, my wound, my fate, whatever. And it's all about making peace with that, you know, accepting that.

[Narrator/Host]

And there's certain wisdom in that, I guess.

[Sean Eling]

Right. But doesn't leave enough room for agency.

[Amir Levine]

Oh, I'm so glad that you said that, because it is all about this combination. So when people come to me for therapy, there's always this idea that, oh, if you. There's also this joke, right? If you're going to make me.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

If you're.

[Amir Levine]

You're going to make me feel, I'm coming with all these problems, and you're

[Interviewer/Co-host]

going to convince me that these problems is okay. And that's like how I'm going to get better.

[Amir Levine]

I just have to accept those problems. But you're not really going to change me. But actually, when you do this kind of work, you see that acceptance is actually the first step before change happens. That just like accepting something, accepting, okay, this is my biology. This is the animal that I am now. How do I work with it to actually find a place that's more convenient? And that feels good to me. And then that's when the change happens.

[Sean Eling]

Any parting advice for listeners or viewers before we go?

[Amir Levine]

You know, I think, and I mentioned that quote, insecure, that's Simone Weil, the French philosopher. She said that attention is the rarest, purest form of generosity. So in those seamis, those small moments, giving attention to people. I was so touched by that sentence because it really agrees with attachment. It's like that's actually a form of generosity. And I think that really helped me understand better why we need it so much and how we can really make a difference in the lives of the people around us by being generous with our attention in that way.

[Sean Eling]

Amir Levine, this was great. I really enjoyed the book. I had so much fun talking to you. Once again, the book is called Secure. Go check it out. Thanks for coming on.

[Amir Levine]

Thanks, John. I appreciate it.

[Narrator/Host]

All right. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I had a blast.

[Sean Eling]

Amir was a great sport as always.

[Narrator/Host]

We want to know what you think, so drop us a line at the gray [e-mail] or leave us a message on our voicemail line at 1-800-214-5749. Please also rate Review subscribe to the podcast. It helps us grow this here show.

[Sean Eling]

This episode was produced by Thor Neurider

[Narrator/Host]

and Beth Morrissey, who also runs the show. Engineer by Shannon Mahoney, Fact Checked by Melissa Hirsch and Alex Overington wrote our theme music.

[Sean Eling]

Our executive producer is Miranda Kennedy.

[Narrator/Host]

The Gray Area comes out on Mondays and Fridays.

[Sean Eling]

Find it wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Narrator/Host]

If you watch podcasts while you listen, you can do that too. Go to YouTube.com Vox for video versions

[Sean Eling]

of the Gray Area Area. The show is part of Vox.

[Narrator/Host]

Support Vox's journalism by joining our membership program today.

[Sean Eling]

Go to Vox.commembers to sign up and if you decide to sign up because of this show, let us know.

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