Loading summary
Derek Thompson
What to make of a Life is the new book from Jim Collins, best selling author of Good to great. Based on 10 years of research, what to make of a Life offers transformative teachings on what it takes to navigate your way through periods of fog, make it past life's inevitable cliffs, and keep the inner fire burning bright long and late. Step into frame with what to make of a Life, the instant New York Times bestseller by Jim Collins, available from
Beth Morrissey
Harper Edge wherever books are sold.
Commercial Announcer
Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day Play. You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit red bull.com brightsummer ahead to learn more. See you this summer.
Beth Morrissey
Derek Thompson, welcome to the show.
Derek Thompson
Hey, great to be here.
Beth Morrissey
Derek was a longtime staff writer at the Atlantic and he's the co author, most recently of the at this point super duper mega bestseller Abundance. He's now the author of a relentlessly interesting substack, which you should check out. And it is on that substack that he wrote a lovely reflection on fatherhood, which is what we're going to talk about today. So fatherhood Derek overrated or underrated?
Derek Thompson
Well, certainly rated. Everyone has something to say about it. You know, I think one of the more indelible things about fatherhood or parenthood in general is that everything is a cliche. This has literally happened billions of times before. In some ways, if you're going to write about it, if you're going to talk about it, the first thing you have to point out is that in all likelihood there's nothing truly new that you can say about this experience that is endemic and indelible to the human experience. I love the identity of being a dad. I love the minute to minute of being a dad. It is incredibly hard and maybe even more than the word hard, cause hard sometimes implies like a level of difficulty. And when I really try to think about what fatherhood feels like, what parenthood feels like, I don't know if it's difficult, it's unrelenting. There aren't individual. I mean, people have different experiences with their kids, but there's no individual moment that's so challenging. Like, you know, the baby poops and the poop goes up her back. Like is that really a challenge or is it just 15 seconds of wipes? It's 15 seconds of wipes. It's not hard. It is unrelenting. Fatherhood might be the only identity that has no end. Right. The workday ends, the work week ends. You know, marriage does not in a good relationship end. But you leave your wife, you leave your husband, and when you're not with them, they aren't desperately dependent on you to live. But parenthood, I think is the only relationship that has this indelible quality of unendingness to it. And that's a part of what makes it exhausting and a part of what makes it special.
Beth Morrissey
Has that been the hardest part for you? Just the never endingness of it all and the relentless pace?
Derek Thompson
Yeah, absolutely. You wake up and we have two kids, two and three months old. You wake up and our kids are not the most talented sleepers in the world. So in all likelihood it is their screaming that woke you up. So the first thing, the first thought of the day is the children. And then I go to work and our kids are in daycare, they have a nanny and we're constantly texting with the daycare and the nanny. And then we come home and it's kids, kids, kids, until, you know, 8:30 and both of them are in bed. And at that point it's like, wow. Like from the first moment of consciousness today to the last moment of 8:29, I, um, it's been nothing but work or childcare and that's a lot. Um, and I, I think it's, it's a beautiful thing to be able to choose to spend so much time around people that you've made the choice to be around that you love.
Beth Morrissey
And you have two daughters, right?
Derek Thompson
They're both. Yeah, two daughters. Two daughters, right.
Beth Morrissey
What's the hardest part? Going from one to two. The audience will know. I am, I have one six year old and I'm about to have a second son. What's the hardest thing?
Derek Thompson
So the cliche is that one plus one doesn't equal two, that one plus one equals five or nine or 18. Because you know, the other cliche, again, it's hard to get away from these sort of pat lines, is that you're moving from zone to man defense. And so one parent always has to be with one child. And there's no ability to sort of two team or to have a situation where I'm exhausted. So I say, I'm sorry, I'm not feeling well. My wife, Laura, can you take care of the one kid? That's easier when there's one. When there's two now, she's always Outnumbered if I'm traveling, if I'm at work, if I'm home late, if I'm out with a drink with friends. And so there's these sort of geometrical challenges of moving from two on one, which is a triangle, to two on two, which is this sort of parallelogram of pain, sometimes for parents to be a little bit too alliterative. But there's also other changes that I think make it easier. There's existential dread that, in my experience, drenches many moments of early parenthood. When you bring home this baby, this stranger, it must be said, this absolute stranger when you bring that stranger home from the hospital. And your first experience parenting is the experience of parenting this pathetically desperate individual. That is an experience of extraordinary existential angst and fear. And you don't quite have that fear. I think, in my experience, the second time around, you understand how to change a diaper. You understand how to sort of read a baby's sounds a little bit more. If they scream and don't stop screaming for 15 minutes, you don't think, oh, my God, is the baby broken? Do I have to go to the hospital? You think instead, oh, the baby's been crying for 10 minutes. Oh, that's because it's a baby. And it is in the nature of babies to just sometimes cry for a while. And I'm just going to, you know, put on an audiobook or some music and sort of get through these next 15 minutes. That's how I would describe the change from 1 to 2. Less existentially frightening, but also less time for leisure, less time to be on your own separate from parenting.
Beth Morrissey
Bringing a stranger home is an interesting way to put it. I don't think most people probably think of their babies as strangers. What do you mean by that? Is it because we actually literally don't know this?
Derek Thompson
Yeah. What's a stranger stranger to someone you never met or is.
Beth Morrissey
Yes, but they're, you know, like they're of you. They're part of you.
Derek Thompson
Right.
Beth Morrissey
Like they're family. Are they stranger because you don't know them yet, or are they a stranger because they are quite literally unknowable for a very long time?
Derek Thompson
Well, they aren't a stranger. Babies are strangers, plural. You bring a baby home from the hospital and you gaze into his eyes, and you gaze into her eyes, and you're looking into that face for the first time, and maybe you see your own bone structure in that face, or maybe you don't, but you're looking at what is I Think definitionally a stranger. But what makes the act of parenting more complicated and weird is that the baby that you parent in week two or week three is not the baby you brought home from the hospital. And the baby that you parent in month three, month four, is not the baby that you parented in week two. And so in many cases, the act of parenting is not like being the parent to a single baby. It is much more like, in like, a literal, phenomenological way. It is much more like parenting a series of strangers, a series of babies that are constantly changing yet retaining the same basic facial structure. And that is, I think, one of the beautiful and strange things about parenting, one of the more almost like Buddhist things about parenting, which is that a law of parenting is that everything is a season and everything is changing. Oh, your child's sleeping well right now. Just wait two months. Or your child isn't sleeping well right now. Maybe just wait six months. Oh, your child's breastfeeding. Well, oh, just wait three weeks. Not breastfeeding, wait three months. Things are constantly changing. And so you can never get fully situated, fully settled in one reality or in one frustration. And of course, there's wisdom there that you can carry outside of parenting to the rest of life.
Beth Morrissey
Is it. I mean, is it weird the fact that as soon as you feel like you start to get to know this little person, that version of them has already faded and now you're sort of like restarting the clock?
Derek Thompson
Yeah. I mean, especially now that we feel like we might be done with two. There's a difficult to release sense that you're watching everything for the last time, that the first time that second baby smiles is the last time we'll ever see the first smile. And the first time our second kid says a word for the first time, that's the last time we'll ever hear a first word. I wrote an essay that we're talking about here for my substack about parenting. And actually, I've never told anybody this. I wrote a section that I cut from that essay where I said something like, When Kepler helped to invent the telescope, it allowed us to see space in a new way. And in a way, babies are like a telescope for time because they allow us to measure time in a new way. I don't change that much, like, week to week, month to month. My face doesn't change that much. My body doesn't change that much. My wife doesn't change that much. Like, once you reach maturity, in a way, almost by definition, maturity is the point in life at which you stop changing so fast, frequently. And so it's hard to measure time as a middle aged adult until you have a baby. And then time becomes measured by the child, right? How old is your child? Three months. When did she say her first word? Whatever. Not necessarily, not three months. But when did she hit this milestone? Oh, two weeks ago. Suddenly the thing that allows you to measure time is your child. And that again is like a nice sort of, I think to me, a nice philosophical wrinkle of being a parent.
Beth Morrissey
My son is 6 right now. He'll be 7 in June. And it's an incredible age. I mean, it's just incredible. Like he's at the point now where he's really like a little person with whom I can hang. But he's also still. I'm still sort of the center of his cosmos, like in lots of ways, right? Like he'll still. He sleeps next to me most nights and like the first words I hear every day are, good morning, daddy, I love you. And it's the absolute. I mean, just pump that, pump that shit into my veins ad infinitum until the end of time, right? But I know there will come a time where that's over, right? And like the least cool thing for him to do would be to crash in my bed and wake up and tell me he loves me. And, and so there's this simultaneous gratitude and joy in the moment, but also this sort of like looming sadness that this will pass and this version of him will cease to exist. But I guess I have one more coming, so there's that. But I'm going to be experiencing what you're talking about with the second one because that's definitely the end of the road for me.
Derek Thompson
Yeah. I mean, this is one of the laugh, cry, happy, sad aspects of being a parent is you sometimes find yourself missing something even before it's missing. You know what I mean?
Beth Morrissey
Yeah, yeah.
Derek Thompson
Like you almost like begin to mourn the fact that this is going to go away even while it's with you. And I sometimes think, like, wouldn't it be lovely if we were better at discovering nostalgia in the present? Right? Like finding the moments in our present that we'll look back on in the future and say, oh, that's what made that moment special. And I do think that there's something about being a parent and having children that makes that a little bit easier. That you're like, you're, you're, you're. I find myself sometimes looking at myself from the future and saying, like, oh, this kid's going to grow up and you're going to miss this. And I think that's healthy. I think having that relationship between present and future is actually like a very healthy way to go through life.
Beth Morrissey
Foreign. Support for the Gray Area comes from hims. Look, ED is more common than most people think and often more manageable than expected. With hims, you can connect online with a licensed provider to explore treatment options tailored to you all in a way that's private and even better on your schedule. HIMSS says they can offer personalized prescription treatment options for ED if prescribed. And if a prescription is right for you, they offer a range of choices from customized treatments to trusted generics that can cost up to 95% less than brand name alternatives. With HIMS, expert care comes directly to you with fully online access to treatments tailored to your goals. HIMS says they put your health and goals first with real medical providers, making sure you get what you need to get results. To get simple online access to personalized, affordable care for ed, hair loss, weight loss and and more, you can visit himss.comgrayarea that's hims.com gray area for your free online visit himss.com grayarea Prescription required. See website for details and important safety information. Sildenafil is the generic version of Viagra. Viagra is a registered trademark of Beatrice Specialty, llc. HIMS is not affiliated with or endorsed by Beatrice.
Commercial Announcer
Your next chapter in healthcare starts at Carrington College's School of Nursing in Portland. Join us for our open house on Tuesday, January 13th from 4 to 7pm you'll tour our campus, see live demos, meet instructors and learn about our Associate Degree in Nursing program that prepares you to become a registered nurse. Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now at Carrington Edu Events. For information on program outcomes, visit Carrington chronic migraine 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more, can make me feel like a spectator in my own life. Botox Onobotulinum toxin a prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine.
Derek Thompson
It's not for those with 14 or
Commercial Announcer
fewer headache days a month.
Derek Thompson
It's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain Fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including als, Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins. And as these may increase the risk of serious side effects, why wait?
Commercial Announcer
Ask your doctor. Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-844botox to learn more.
Beth Morrissey
There's a quote in your piece that I was not familiar with. I don't even know the psychologist who wrote it, D.W. winnicott. But he wrote that there's no such thing as a baby. Right. If you set out to describe a baby, you will find that describing a baby, or you will find that you are describing a baby and someone.
Derek Thompson
Yeah, I love that.
Beth Morrissey
What is the idea there about relationality? What do you think that's getting at?
Derek Thompson
Well, I mean, he's not being poetic, he's being literal. I think this is the. I found a quote from the Andrew Solomon book Far from the Tree, which is completely brilliant. And he quotes Winnicott saying, there's no such thing as a baby. Because whenever you describe a baby, you're never describing a baby. You're describing a baby plus someone else. Like, a baby does not exist as a personality. A baby is what psychologists call a dyad, a relationship between two people. And I remember reading that and being like, wow, what a great line. There is no such thing as a baby. I almost called the essay that I wrote about parenthood, there is no such thing as a person. Because the more I thought about it, the more I thought, whenever you set out to describe a person, you would never describe what that person is like alone when you can't see them. Right. If someone's like, what is Sean like? I'm not gonna describe what you're like when you're playing video games and I can't see you. I'm only going to describe what you're like when we're talking about philosophy and politics and parenthood. That's the only way I know you. And so who is Sean is. Who is Sean in relation to me? And people only exist as dyads. They only exist in relation to other people. And that's the truth about babies, of course, but it's a truth about everyone. Like, we are the sum of our relationships. And I think that's just. I think it's a beautiful observation from Winnicott and so, yeah, that's why I put it in the piece.
Beth Morrissey
Well, it's also because they change so much faster at that stage of life. That fact just becomes more noticeable than it is otherwise. You know, I mean, it is amazing how we're such contextual creatures, right? Like, we. We can. We are like, literally, there are different versions of ourselves that are possible at all times. And which version we are at any given time depends so much on the context and the environment where we are, who we're with, when we are. All those things bring out different versions of ourselves. Which one is the real one? Well, there isn't a real one. Right. It's just you're always in relation with the world and other people and. And certainly being a dad, especially of a baby and a toddler and now a young person, it's brought out a different version of me at every step and hopefully a better version. But sometimes it's really hard and it's a shitty version, like a very selfish, I can't do this anymore version. But it's instructive, though, right?
Derek Thompson
Yeah, no, that's. That's. I think that's right. If you play a little bit with this idea that we're constantly meeting our children and then meeting them again and then meeting them again, because the child at two weeks is not the child at two months, it's not the child at two years, it's not the child at 20 years. And so you're constantly in this process of meeting your child again and again, then it must also be true that the same way you can never fully and finally meet your child, you also can't fully and finally meet yourself. It's unrealistic to expect that there'll ever be some kind of final version of you. I think parenthood just might be like that, but on steroids, that because it is such a shock, such a trauma to your life schedule even, it really forces you to meet a new version of yourself and confront that new version of yourself.
Beth Morrissey
That's one of the best parts. And it's also potentially one of the most troubling parts, right, about being a parent. Because raising a kid, you really. You kind of find out who you are and what you're about almost every day because you're getting tested and you're forced to make choices. And those choices reveal a lot about yourself. You kind of find out if you are who you think you are. And that can be good or bad, but it is. It's revealing nevertheless.
Derek Thompson
You want to watch yourself reacting to your Children, if you have that capacity, you want to find a way to step outside of yourself and say, who am I when my children are at their worst? And what does that say about me? Yeah, what I found and I'm no saint. Is it like a part of me when the oldest is throwing a huge loud tantrum, a part of me shuts down and I'll just turn around and be like, I don't think I can successfully parent this situation in any kind of active way. So I'm going to inactively parent by turning my back and just hoping that the negative punishment of not paying attention to to the child serves in the future to discourage this kind of behavior. But I actually have no idea how to directly respond in a way that's going to be useful. So even there you learn from the strategies of self regulation that you select.
Beth Morrissey
It sort of raises the question like everyone, if they're going to become a parent, they have an idea of what kind of parent, what kind of dad, what kind of moment they're going to be, what kind of dad did you think you'd be? And is that the kind of dad you've actually been?
Derek Thompson
Yeah, it's interesting. I'm very. Both my parents have passed away and that's a huge tragedy of my life. And I really wish I could talk to them about, about being a parent because there's so many times I want to reach out to them and say, you know, what was was this like for you? What it's like for me, that's it. I try to be deliberate about what aspects of my parenting are flowing from my parents example and what aspects of my parenting are pushing against their example. My parents were wonderful. They were very loving, they were very encouraging, they were very accommodating. But also my dad could get angry. He could get very angry. And so I think that maybe my turning my back on screaming baby or screaming toddler thing is my way of reacting to my father's example. I, I've seen how yelling goes and I don't like the yelling approach. And so in a way I'm reacting in the most dramatic way by doing the exact opposite of yelling. Like yelling is loud engagement. I'm doing quiet disengagement. I'm like back turned, walking away to the kitchen. And so there's ways in which I think aspects of my parenting are essentially like facsimiles of my parents and there's aspects that weighs my parenting style are directly opposed in reactions to my parents.
Beth Morrissey
Do you think we have a. I was going to Say, healthy. But do you think we have a coherent modern conception of fatherhood in this culture right now? It seems very confused right now, and I think some of that confusion has led to a lot of very interesting things in the discourse.
Derek Thompson
Yeah.
Beth Morrissey
Why don't you tell me about masculinity and fatherhood?
Derek Thompson
Yeah. Why don't you tell me the ways in which we could go in any number of directions here. But you. I'm interested where you think we're confused, and then I'd love to talk about those aspects of the confusion.
Beth Morrissey
I just think you have this whole discourse about masculinity. Right. Modern masculinity. What is it. What is it to be a man now? And what's toxic and what isn't and what's regressive and what's progressive and all the rest of it. And obviously, that's directly related to this question of what it means to be a dad. Like, what is the role of the dad in the home?
Derek Thompson
Right.
Beth Morrissey
And so, you know, like, for instance, you know, you went, Scott, you were on Scott Galloway's podcast. He wasn't on yours, right?
Derek Thompson
No, it was on Scott's podcast where I was telling. It was the first hour that I'd come back from parental leave. And I thought we were kind of. I thought we were kind of joking where I said, I'm back from parental leave. My daughter's two months old. And his reaction, which I thought was like, a little bit torqued for humor, but a lot of people took as untorked in a sincere way, who's basically. I think paternity leave is a joke. I think early fatherhood is absolute hell. People maybe couldn't see me. I was kind of laughing because while I disagreed with the substance of everything that he was saying, I kind of thought he was doing a little bit of a comedy bit. But in any case, you should take this and run with it, because I want to talk about aspects of this.
Beth Morrissey
Well, no, but it speaks to the issues I'm talking about. So basically, what he was saying, and I'm not trying to quote it, but I'm paraphrasing. But basically, you know, dads are useless. Right. Especially in this early stage. Right. So what the hell. The idea of paternity leave is absurd because there's nothing for the dad to do, especially when the kid is that young. Right. That is. That is the domain of mom. And so the dad should be at the office, you know, sipping on bourbon, you know, earning the bread.
Derek Thompson
Yeah.
Beth Morrissey
And like, you know, keeping the trains running and all. The rest of it, Right? And I like Scott a lot, but I disagree strongly with that sentiment.
Derek Thompson
Paternity leave is not just for men. It's also for women in heterosexual households and for children.
Beth Morrissey
Right?
Derek Thompson
It's really nice to have two parents home for the child. It's really nice for the mom to have a dedicated deputy. Because raising a kid, if listeners, Viewers haven't done it, like, weirdly, requires just like an absurd amount of shit. Like, I mean, just bottles and bottles and towels and little parts that go into bottles and pumps and parts that go into pumps and like, then like, the mom sometime is just like, in a bed for a long time and she, like, she needs her coffee and oatmeal and can I have a Diet Coke? And I'm pinned here because the baby's feeding. Could you refill my water? Like, there's a lot for people, for the other person who is not breastfeeding to do in a home when the baby is two weeks old. And frankly, if the man's not there, in all likelihood the neighbor's there, the grandmother is there, the aunt is there. There's a lot of work that has to be done. And so paternity leave, it's great for men, I think it's great for kids, I think it's absolutely fantastic for moms. And we haven't even gotten into the fact that much of the wage disparity between prime age men and women in the workforce is a motherhood penalty. And if you put men and women on relatively equal footing, you might reverse a bit of that motherhood penalty.
Beth Morrissey
Fox News is now streaming live on Fox 1. When it matters most, turn to the voices you trust. We go beyond the headlines, bringing you the stories you won't hear anywhere else. Live coverage, sharp analysis, real perspective at home or on the go. Stay connected when it counts. Stream Fox News on Fox 1.
Derek Thompson
Download today.
Commercial Announcer
Everyone knows that unexplainable it factor, that smile that lights up a room, that wow. Well, it doesn't happen by itself. There's chemistry behind the charisma. Colgate Optic White Pro series toothpaste removes 15 years of deep set stains when you brush twice daily for two weeks. How? The clinically proven formula is powered by Colgate's hydrogen peroxide complex. It works at the molecular level to gently dissolve stains deep within the enamel where your brush can't reach. It's proof that daily routine can be remarkable. That's the science of wow. Colgate Optic White.
Beth Morrissey
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.
Derek Thompson
I don't know if you knew this.
Beth Morrissey
But anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities.
Derek Thompson
Do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today.
Beth Morrissey
I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com
Commercial Announcer
Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms at Mintmobile. Do.
Beth Morrissey
All right. You want to do a little lightning round?
Derek Thompson
Sure.
Beth Morrissey
Ish.
Derek Thompson
Yeah.
Beth Morrissey
All right. What parenting opinion have you become most dogmatic about? As you know, people who have takes about parenting are very invested.
Derek Thompson
Yeah.
Beth Morrissey
In those takes. But what, what take, what opinion about parenting have you become most fervent about?
Derek Thompson
I've said this before in other contexts, but I'll say it again here. A cliche of becoming a parent is that the child comes first, then the relationship, then the individual. And I think there is a lot of wisdom in the idea that you should invert that list, that you should put yourself first, then your relationship and then the child. If you are not whole, you won't be a good partner. If you're not a good partnership, you can't be good co parents. And if you build that foundation of your whole and the partnership is strong, it makes parenting much easier. And so one thing I think is unfortunately encouraged by this sort of like extreme version of parenting perfectionism is the idea that you have to entirely like eviscerate your life in like, in zealous devotion to your child. You're just going to burn out if you think that you need to like gut your own happiness and everything that made your marriage relationship strong in order to put the child first. The child, of course, is paramount, but in a weird way, the child is also tertiary. You come first. You use your strength to create a strong partnership with your partner. That's number two. And if you have one and two, then parenting the child is easier.
Beth Morrissey
Honestly, if you'd asked me that question, that is my answer.
Derek Thompson
Yeah, be selfish. Make that, make that cocktail and use it to become a better friend.
Beth Morrissey
I mean, I, I would put it a little more charitably than that, Derek, but no, I mean, someone this, I don't want to say their name because I, you know, I don't. I felt a little bit bad about this, but you know, on X, Twitter, whatever, you know, someone had tweeted out a take to that effect. Something about, you know, hey, look, when you become a parent, basically your life doesn't matter at all, right? Like from 6am to 6pm, think not at all of yourself or your relationship. The kid comes first, first, first, first, firstst, first, first. And then at the end of the day, you can take a little time for yourself. And I, and I hate that with so much passion because I think not only is everything you just said true, it makes the parents miserable and it creates, you know, stress and misery amongst the parents who then start to become less actually a couple and more of just co managers of this household. But it also, I think, creates little narcissistic kids who think that they deserve to be the center of the universe. And if they don't get what they want, then they let you know, everyone know about it, right? Like they become self centered and solipsistic. And part of our job here is not to raise assholes, right? Like you want to raise people who are adaptable, who can just kind of roll with things, right? That don't always have to be the center of things in order to enjoy themselves, right? And like if you make them the center of everything, like you're telling that is what you were signaling, right? Loud and clear, you'll be miserable, they'll be little assholes. It's bad for everybody, right?
Derek Thompson
No, I mean, no lies detected. Number one, you reminded me of, I feel like I'm always obligated to name check at least one existential philosopher when we talk. I think it was Camus who said, one must imagine Sisyphus happy.
Beth Morrissey
Yes.
Derek Thompson
Parenting is Sisyphean. It is absolutely Sisyphean. Whoever came up with that metaphor in ancient Greece? Absolutely apparent. But also you have to imagine yourself cheerful while doing it. If you believe that the Sisyphean job of raising a child is an experience of devoted and necessary misery, good luck. You have to do this for like 18 years. Like that's a long time to be miserable. You might as well do it, like find a way to do it with a little bit of cheer. It's not easy. There's a lot of parts of parenting that are not receptive to cheer. It's hard to change a poopy diaper and say, God, this is like a peak experience. But I think it's important therefore to be all the more purposeful about putting yourself first when you can put yourself first.
Beth Morrissey
Has becoming a dad changed your ambitions in any obvious way?
Derek Thompson
No. I wish I had a more complex answer for you. I'm trying to think now if that immediate no was honest. I think it was my ambitions haven't changed. I don't think I've become. Some people, I think, become less ambitious when they become parents. Parenting sort of knocks down their professional ambition a bit. I think some people become more ambitious. They didn't have focus in their life and they have a child, and then rejuvenated by a sense of purpose, they become more ambitious in their careers. I don't think I felt either. I think I feel just as ambitious. So I suppose that's my answer.
Beth Morrissey
What is one thing you've learned about yourself as a parent that you did not know before?
Derek Thompson
I remember saying this to my wife two months into being a parent for the first time, that I was always like a big data wirecutter guy. I was always someone who, like, when I made big decisions, I would do as much research as possible. And if I wanted to buy something, like go to wirecutter and open like 17 tabs, like, really try to figure out what is the best backpack. And I found that being a parent, like, really awakened my instinct, like, to namecheck the second debatably existentialist philosopher of this podcast. I think Nietzsche would be very proud of my response to parenting because I found my instinct incredibly awakened in me. And I remember even when someone was telling me about Emily Oster's work, which is. Which is really wonderful and has a lot of value, and telling me about a lot of big data findings about how to parent. And in one particular suggestion, it was a little bit different than the way I was doing it. I said, you know, if you think about it, the meta analysis of parenting is basically research that's been done on almost every baby that isn't your baby. And so it's the conclusions are the average of all the babies that aren't yours. I'm not raising the average of all babies that aren't mine. I'm raising my child alone. So while I want to understand the evidence and I want to understand the big data, and I still get that, like, Wirecutter for babies might be like a website to pay attention to at the end of the day. I'm doing this once for me and for my daughters, and I really feel like my instinct as a dad is supercharged in a way that my instinct in almost every other domain of human affairs is often, like, quite muted. So, yeah, in a very strange way, being a father has, like, made me more connected with my inner voice and my inner instinct.
Beth Morrissey
Do you think that instinctiveness has bled into your thinking and your analytical work?
Derek Thompson
No, not yet. Maybe it should. But I still find myself constantly. When I'm writing, I constantly find myself ventriloquizing the voices of my critics in a way that's very unlike my parenting. Like, when I'm writing a take about artificial intelligence, I'm constantly thinking, what about people who hate artificial intelligence? What about people who don't find it useful? What about people who think that it's going to destroy the world? What about people who. And I. Like, I'm always. I often find myself writing with a chorus of readers in my head, and I'm writing for myself, but also writing for this ventriloquized chorus of readers. And I guess what I'm saying is that's always been the way I go through life is being almost overly and in some cases, unhelpfully attuned to what other people might think of my work and my actions. And in a weird way, being a parenting is like this special domain where it's like, there's two of us. There's two of us here. It's me and it's baby. It's me and it's infant. And I'm going to parent the way that I want to parent. And I don't really care if other people don't approve.
Beth Morrissey
Well, if I may be permitted to say so, I think your daughters are lucky to have you as a dad.
Derek Thompson
Thank you, dude. Right back at you.
Beth Morrissey
Where can people find your substack?
Derek Thompson
The substack is just called Derek Thompson's. That's relatively easy. And the podcast is Plain English.
Beth Morrissey
All right. It is. It is. Actually, I have a rotation of 5 to 7 pods. Plain English is among them. So it's a great show. Check it out. Derek, you're the best, man. Thanks for coming back. And, yeah, we'll get you back for a fourth time, maybe.
Derek Thompson
Great. Appreciate it, dude.
Beth Morrissey
All right. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Derek is great, and this one was a little more personal than a lot of our episodes, but I've always found that the best way to the universal is through the personal. So I hope whether you're a parent or not, something in this resonated with you. But as always, we want to know what you think. So drop us a line at the gray area@vox.com or you can leave us a message on our new voicemail line at 1-800-214-5749. Please also rate Review subscribe to the podcast. It helps us grow our show, which, of course, you want to help with. This episode was produced by Thor Neueter and Beth Morrissey, who also runs the show. Engineer by Christian Nyala. Fact Checked by Melissa Hirsch and Emma Munger wrote our theme music. Our executive producer is Miranda Kennedy. The Gray Area comes out on Mondays and Fridays. Find it wherever you listen to podcasts. If you watch podcasts while you listen, you can do that too. Go to YouTube.com Vox for video versions of the Gray Area. The show is part of Vox. Support Vox's journalism by joining our membership program today. Go to Vox.commembers to sign up and if you decide to sign up because of this show, let us know.
Derek Thompson
The right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. @blinds.com We've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50,000 five star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. Real Design professionals, free samples, zero pressure right now. Get up to 45% off site wide plus get a free professional measure@blinds.com rules and restrictions apply.
Podcast Summary: The Gray Area with Sean Illing
Episode: In Defense of Fatherhood
Date: May 1, 2026
In this deeply personal episode, Sean Illing (hosted for this episode by Beth Morrissey) is joined by writer and podcaster Derek Thompson for a nuanced, reflective conversation on the realities of fatherhood. The discussion moves beyond clichés, exploring the unrelenting demands, existential transformations, and philosophical insights that come with parenting—especially in the present cultural landscape of shifting masculinity and parental roles. The interplay between self-identity, relationship health, and the wellbeing of children anchors the conversation, providing both practical and philosophical takeaways for parents and non-parents alike.
Constant Responsibility:
Choice and Love:
Children as Strangers:
Change as the Only Constant:
Parenting as a Measure of Time:
Anticipatory Nostalgia:
No Such Thing as a Baby:
Relational Identity:
Ever-Changing Selves:
Character Under Stress:
Public Discourse on Masculinity:
The Paternity Leave Debate:
Put Yourself First:
Dangers of Child-Centrism:
Sisyphean Cheer:
Ambition: Parenting hasn’t changed Derek’s professional ambitions; he feels “just as ambitious.” (33:25)
Instinct Over Data:
“Fatherhood might be the only identity that has no end.”
— Derek Thompson (01:42)
“You sometimes find yourself missing something even before it’s missing.”
— Derek Thompson (12:11)
“There is no such thing as a baby.”
— D.W. Winnicott, via Derek (16:41)
“We are the sum of our relationships.”
— Derek Thompson (18:14)
“I think parenthood just might be like that, but on steroids… It really forces you to meet a new version of yourself.”
— Derek Thompson (19:13)
“If you build that foundation of your whole, and the partnership is strong, it makes parenting much easier.”
— Derek Thompson (29:13)
“If you make them the center of everything… you’ll be miserable, they’ll be little assholes. It’s bad for everybody.”
— Beth Morrissey (31:47)
“Parenting is Sisyphean. … But also you have to imagine yourself cheerful while doing it. That’s a long time to be miserable.”
— Derek Thompson, referencing Camus (32:36)
“At the end of the day, I’m doing this once, for me and my daughters… I really feel like my instinct as a dad is supercharged.”
— Derek Thompson (34:18)
The conversation is candid, philosophical, and humorous in equal measure. Both speakers combine vulnerability about the hardships and ambivalences of fatherhood with philosophical musings on change, identity, and the importance of maintaining selfhood and partnership within parenthood. The message is neither saccharine nor cynical: fatherhood is exhausting, bewildering, and beautiful—and it’s an experience best met with self-awareness, humility, and a healthy balance of selfishness and devotion.
Links:
This summary is ideal for anyone interested in the lived, evolving experience of modern fatherhood—whether parent or not.