The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Episode: Why Orwell Matters

Guest: Laura Beers
Date: August 5, 2024

Episode Overview

In this episode, Sean Illing invites historian Laura Beers, author of Orwell's Wisdom and Warnings for the 21st Century, for a deep conversation about the life, political commitments, and continuing relevance of George Orwell. Together, they examine how and why Orwell remains both celebrated and misunderstood, the tendency to reduce him to “Orwellian” clichés, his commitment to intellectual honesty, his significant limitations—especially regarding gender—and the practical lessons his work offers today.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Who Was George Orwell? (03:26)

• Orwell’s outsized reputation rests mainly on Animal Farm and 1984, but he was also a journalist, critic of empire, and chronicler of the poor (Homage to Catalonia, The Road to Wigan Pier, Down and Out in Paris and London).
• Orwell’s impact: His name, “Orwellian,” now serves as shorthand for abuses of power and manipulation of truth, often used imprecisely.
• Beers notes, “There aren’t that many people…whose names have become adjectives,” and points out the irony that, “Orwell’s greatest virtue as a writer was his clarity… yet he is now perpetually misunderstood.” (04:47)

The Essence of Orwell’s Thought (06:07)

• Orwell’s core values: A relentless defense of truth, integrity in writing and politics, and a commitment to combating inequality and abuses of power.
• He is often reduced to a free speech champion, but his real emphasis was on truth in speech, not just the right to speak (07:23).

The “Power of Facing Unpleasant Facts” (08:31)

• Orwell admired the rare capacity for “facing unpleasant facts”—intellectual honesty in not concealing truths, even when uncomfortable.
• Beers elaborates, “For him, this power…is partially a willingness to stand up to most of his colleagues within the political left in Western Europe and call them out…” (08:55)
• Orwell’s courage distinguished him: He called out Stalinist abuses while remaining a socialist, refusing tribal loyalties.

On Doublethink, Groupthink, and Integrity (11:16)

• 1984’s “doublethink” originated as a critique of leftist colleagues who espoused liberty but excused Stalinist tyranny.
• Sean: “The willingness to notice when there’s a conflict between what you want to be true and what’s actually true…intellectuals rarely do this. But he did.” (10:43)

Blind Spots: Women and Feminism (12:50)

• Beers points out Orwell’s significant failings regarding women and feminism, citing his lack of alignment with the early 20th-century feminist movement and the absence of strong women characters in his works.
  • “I do think that women in his time, and certainly women in our time, would insert an asterisk there and say that he wasn’t on the right side when it came to the feminist struggle.” (12:54)
• Discussion includes feminist critiques (Wifedom, Julia) and his upholding of patriarchal norms, both in life and literature (15:01).

Was Orwell a Post-Colonialist? (17:42)

• Orwell was an early, vocal critic of empire, especially in “Shooting an Elephant.”
• But his imperial critiques often focused on the damage empire did to the British, not the colonized: “The argument…is that the British need to get out of empire because their participation…is corrupting them…” (17:42)

What Did Socialism Mean for Orwell? (19:57)

• Orwell’s “blueprint for revolution” during WWII: Advocated radical social and economic equality (income caps, abolishing private schools), breaking down class barriers, and universal state education.
• “[Orwell] argues for a limitation of incomes so that you don’t have wealth disparities greater than 10 to 1… [and] abolishing private school because…equality is best achieved through universal state education.” (19:57)

The Real “Orwellian” — Meaning and Misuse (22:16)

• Beers offers a corrective definition: “Orwellian” is less about censorship alone, more about the consolidation of state and media power, surveillance, and manipulation of truth.
  • “We are being constantly surveilled… but…it’s mainly large private corporations, not the state.” (22:49)
• Lack of free, diverse dialogue—both under authoritarian states and within algorithmically filtered information bubbles—is deeply Orwellian.

The Use and Abuse of Language (28:04)

• Orwell viewed language as a tool that both reflects and shapes reality.
  • “He understood reality through the medium of… the written word.” (28:17)
• His special concern: Political euphemism often obscures ugly realities (enhanced interrogation, collateral damage), sapping dissent.
  • “Euphemism…allies the truth, allows you to kind of paper over ugly realities.” (30:30)
  • Clarity and simplicity are hallmarks; Orwell’s prose is “blissfully easy to read because…he insists on clarity” (33:27).

Orwell’s Writing Style and Legacy (34:00)

• Despite not being a “first-tier prose stylist,” Orwell’s plain style made him influential, described by Lionel Trilling as “the virtue of not being a genius” (34:00).
• Sean: “What you see with intellectuals is a lot of rhetorical gymnastics… That’s not Orwell at all. That’s what he sort of stood against.” (34:58)
• His clarity was also his undoing—dying young, his ideas became easily appropriated by different sides, left and right, for their own ends (36:00).

Totalitarianism: Understanding from Outside (36:54)

• Despite not living in a totalitarian state, Orwell saw firsthand the manipulations of truth and persecution (especially in Spain during the Civil War), which shaped his anti-Stalinism.
  • Beers details his experience fighting with the POUM and being targeted by the pro-Stalin government in Spain (37:27).

What Orwell Didn’t Get Right (42:55)

• Beers—Orwell was a technophobe and did not foresee the power private corporations would wield in the information age.
  • “He just didn’t foresee the role that large mega corporations would play in controlling our access to information… That’s partly because he was a real technophobe.” (42:55)
• Sean notes: “Orwell really diagnosed the 20th century, but he didn’t anticipate the 21st century very well. If you want to understand the 21st century, you read Huxley’s Brave New World, not 1984.” (45:26)
• Beers agrees that Huxley’s vision—control through pleasure, not pain—may better suit our time, though both dystopias have relevance (47:05).

Orwell’s Enduring Lesson (49:03)

• Beers: The right to speak the truth is also a responsibility—“Being given the right to speak your truth is also an obligation to have a truth to speak… a power of facing unpleasant facts.” (49:03)
• Sean: Orwell warned persuasively about “the temptations of conformism and how easily people, especially intellectuals, give themselves over to power and whatever ideas are fashionable.” (50:04)

Essential Orwell Texts (50:39)

• Beers recommends:
  • The Road to Wigan Pier—on social inequality.
  • “Politics and the English Language”—on the abuse of language in politics: “It’s one where he picks up on a lot of the themes we’ve talked about today… about the use of euphemism and… the importance of clear speech…” (50:58)

Closing Thoughts

• “In the end, it doesn’t matter what you think, it matters how you think. And if your manner of thinking is honest and clear, then you will land on the side of freedom and dignity.” – Sean Illing (51:55)
• Laura Beers: “Well, I would tend to agree. So we can see why we both are great admirers of George Orwell.” (52:15)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Orwell’s Clarity:
  “[Orwell’s] greatest virtue as a writer was his clarity. He wrote so as not to be misunderstood, and yet he is now perpetually misunderstood.” — Laura Beers (04:47)

• On Truth:
  “He’s someone who argues that you should be able to say that two plus two equals four. And he argues that against those who would say that two plus two equals five. So it’s not about the right to say whatever you want, but about the right to speak truthfully.” — Laura Beers (07:23)

• On Facing Facts:
  “I think for him, this power of facing unpleasant facts is…a willingness to stand up to most of his colleagues within the political left…and say we can’t be afraid that it will undermine the cause of socialism to talk about abuses of power.” — Laura Beers (08:55)

• On Language:
  “The difficulty with euphemism…is that it [elides] truth, lets you paper over ugly realities…using the term pacifying gives an entirely different spin to the actions of colonial or other totalitarian regimes.” — Laura Beers (30:30, 33:27)

• On Orwell & Technology:
  “He just didn’t foresee the role that large mega corporations would play in controlling our access to information…He was a real technophobe.” — Laura Beers (42:55)

• Huxley vs. Orwell:
  “Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance.” — Sean Illing, quoting Neil Postman (46:09)

• On Intellectual Honesty:
  “In the end, it doesn’t matter what you think. It matters how you think. And if your manner of thinking is honest and clear, then you will land on the side of freedom and dignity.” — Sean Illing (51:55)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:26 — Who was Orwell? Foundations of his legacy.
• 06:07 — What did Orwell stand for at his core?
• 08:31 — “Power of facing unpleasant facts.”
• 11:16 — On doublethink and the corruption of political thought.
• 12:50 — Orwell’s failings on feminism and gender politics.
• 17:42 — Was Orwell a post-colonialist? His imperial critique.
• 19:57 — What did Orwellian socialism actually mean to him?
• 22:16 — Defining “Orwellian,” then and now.
• 28:04 — Why Orwell cared so deeply about language.
• 33:27 — Clarity as both virtue and vulnerability in Orwell’s legacy.
• 34:58 — Orwell’s style vs. genius; his anti-elitist intellectual honesty.
• 36:54 — How did Orwell understand totalitarianism so well?
• 42:55 — What Orwell got wrong: Technophobia and private, not just state, power.
• 45:26 — Comparing Orwell and Huxley for relevance to today.
• 49:03 — Orwell’s lesson for the 21st century: The responsibility of truth.
• 50:39 — Most essential piece of Orwell’s writing (beyond the novels).

Further Reading & Recommendations

• Laura Beers’ Book: Orwell’s Wisdom and Warnings for the 21st Century
• Orwell’s Essential Works:
  • The Road to Wigan Pier
  • “Politics and the English Language” (essay)

This episode is an accessible, thought-provoking exploration of the nuances in Orwell’s work and legacy, challenging lazy uses of “Orwellian” and inviting listeners to revisit the writer’s moral seriousness, enduring limitations, and contemporary significance.