You’re right to bear arms

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Episode: You’re right to bear arms
Date: February 20, 2026
Host: Sean Illing (for this episode, Preet Bharara as guest host)
Guest: Tyler Austin Harper (former professor, writer at The Atlantic)

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Overview of Main Theme

This episode explores the meaning and implications of the Second Amendment in modern America, especially in the wake of recent controversial shootings by ICE agents. Tyler Austin Harper—essayist, academic, and self-described “gun guy”—joins to discuss his recent piece on the shooting of Alex Pretti in Minneapolis, his personal experiences as a gun owner, and the broader philosophical and political contradictions around gun rights, government power, and progressive politics.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Tyler Austin Harper’s Background & Motivation

• Harper’s journey from academia to journalism, motivated by impatience with academia’s siloed nature and desire for public intellectual engagement ([02:34], [03:09]).
• His unique perspective: Black, son of a police officer, former progressive academic, leftist but critical of institutional “justice” rhetoric that covers up economic exploitation ([05:38]).

“I was employed in a very progressive academic institution and really didn’t fit in with the cultural milieu there. It was a moment where I felt like a lot of people were speaking on my behalf in ways that really conflicted with a lot of my core beliefs…”
— Tyler Austin Harper [05:38]

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2. The Minneapolis Shooting & Its Context

• The shooting of Alex Pretti, who was legally carrying a firearm, by ICE agents—the event Harper warned might happen due to ICE’s lack of professionalism and knowledge of local gun laws ([07:39], [08:28]).
• Harper details how ICE’s practices—racial profiling, detention, and unprofessional conduct—created an environment ready for tragedy, especially in liberal gun law states ([08:28], [09:31]).
• Emphasis on the brutality: Pretti was shot in the back 10 times, with agents continuing to fire even after any “threat” was neutralized ([10:59], [11:00]).

“This was clearly a state execution … even if you want a grant, this was an untrained or under-trained agent who heard someone say gun, panicked and shot. That explains the first couple of shots. That does not explain continuing to empty a magazine into a guy’s back while he lays on the pavement.”
— Tyler Austin Harper [11:00]

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3. Personal Impact & Gun Carrying

• Harper has been a “gun guy” for years, but only started carrying daily after receiving death threats for his public writing, mainly from the left during the 2024 election ([12:00], [12:38]).
• The ICE surge in Maine made him feel less safe as a Black man carrying legally—so much so that he altered his appearance to “look whiter” and stopped carrying while agents were in town ([17:05]).

“I did a calculus, which was that I’m probably in more danger from these people carrying than I am from anything else… So for the week or so they were in Maine, I left the Glock at home.”
— Tyler Austin Harper [17:05]

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4. The Political Double Standard & Hypocrisy

• Discussion of how both the right and left twist Second Amendment rhetoric to suit their moment, noting the hypocrisy from the Trump administration labeling Pretti’s pistol “military style” and his carrying of spare magazines as evidence of extremism ([18:55], [21:52]).
• Bharara notes the contrast with right-wing support for armed white militias, compared to outrage when ICE encountered an armed liberal protestor ([22:09]).

“This is the same party who, when white militia bros, like, showed up to the state capitol in Michigan... That is freedom in action. Yeah, but, but this. Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. That’s a bridge too far.”
— Preet Bharara [22:09]

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5. Gun Rights as a Universal Civil Liberty

• Harper’s critique that Democrats ignore the tyranny-prevention rationale of the Second Amendment, even as they warn about fascism and authoritarianism in the U.S. ([18:55], [21:52]).
• Calls for the left to reconsider its orientation to guns, especially given escalating state violence ([26:35]).
• Historical note: strict gun laws’ connection to Black Panthers’ 1960s activism—showing the right’s selective application of gun rights ([23:34]).

“If you are somebody saying this administration is fascist and Authoritarian and Nazi 2.0... would you rather be armed or unarmed?... there might be a bit of a contradiction between the insistence that this administration is authoritarian and that they're going to cancel the elections, and also ‘guns are bad and we should ban assault weapons.’ I don't think those are consistent positions.”
— Tyler Austin Harper [33:57]

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6. Changing Gun Culture & Liberal Curiosity

• Harper notes a shift: increasing liberal curiosity about gun ownership amid political unrest—friends asking him for advice and training ([26:35]).
• Practical advice to “gun-curious” progressives: go to a range, see the diversity, break stereotypes, advocate for meaningful, realistic gun control ([35:06]).

“The best thing you can do if you are listening to this and you are an enthusiastic proponent of gun control is at least learn a little bit about guns and gun culture so you can advocate in ways that are smart and not just political theater.”
— Tyler Austin Harper [38:21]

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7. Smarter Gun Policy

• Calls for informed, pragmatic gun control—criticizing bans or taxes on items like suppressors, which do not prevent crime but antagonize gun owners ([36:51], [37:32]).
• Advocates for liberals to push gun policy based on practical understanding, not fear or the desire for political theater ([38:21]).

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8. American Authoritarianism: Now & Next

• Discussion about the “slippery toward authoritarianism” climate, with a distinction drawn between Trump’s opportunistic grifting and his ideological enablers (e.g., Stephen Miller) ([27:25], [29:18]).
• Harper suggests Trump’s lack of ideology may ironically keep him from full authoritarianism, but warns that future leaders with fixed ideological goals could be more dangerous ([32:13]).

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “You would have an easier time getting cheese out of France” — on the impossibility of eradicating American gun culture ([32:38])
• “[Trump is] a con artist and a grifter… what he’s always been… If those [authoritarian] ideas are compatible with him enriching himself, then great. But the moment that comes into conflict with his financial self interest, I think Donald Trump clearly backs off.” ([28:00])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:34] – Harper’s background, academia vs. journalism
• [05:38] – Why Harper entered public discourse, cultural dissonance at progressive institutions
• [07:39] – Intro to the Minneapolis ICE shooting and its warning signs
• [09:31] – ICE’s lack of professionalism, legal carry under threat
• [11:00] – The details of the shooting: “state execution”
• [12:00] – Harper’s concealed carry background, death threats
• [17:05] – The personal impact of ICE’s surge in Maine, altering appearance, and stopping carry
• [18:55] – Harper’s Second Amendment “wake up call” for the left and right
• [21:52] – Government’s shifting rhetoric about guns post-shooting
• [22:09] – Bharara on right-wing hypocrisy and militia culture
• [23:34] – The history and racial coding of gun politics in America
• [26:35] – The left’s slow pivot toward gun rights amid authoritarian fears
• [27:25] – Trump vs. "Trumpism" vs. MAGA: authoritarianism in America
• [32:38] – Harper’s “pro–Second Amendment” pitch to liberals
• [35:06] – Myth-busting advice for gun-curious liberals
• [36:51] – Smarter vs. performative gun policy

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Tone and Style

The conversation balances philosophical reasoning with plainspoken, sometimes biting humor. Harper is direct, earnest, politically flexible, and committed to civil liberties—but ready with a wry observation about both left and right. Bharara pushes for clarity without shying from cursing or sarcasm, keeping the tone irreverent yet deeply engaged.

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Closing Remarks

• Harper’s advice: "If you're gonna buy a gun, do so responsibly. But do so." ([40:19])
• Shared appreciation for open, honest conversation. “This is so fun. Really fun.” ([40:38])

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This episode is essential for anyone looking to understand the complex, evolving debates about guns, civil liberties, and political identity in America—especially for those trying to square liberal anxieties about authoritarianism with longstanding skepticism of widespread gun ownership.

Transcript

[Robin Arzón]

What does it really mean to be a neighbor? It's just everyday people, you know, it's just people who are retired. They have a couple hours in the afternoon, so they're gonna do patrols. And it's people who are, you know, real estate agents, you know, driving around like, trying to track how ICE is moving and alert neighbors when things are not safe. The rise of mutual aid in times of crisis. That's this week on Explain It To Me new episodes Sundays, wherever you get your podc.

[Preet Bharara]

When the political winds change, will there be accountability for those who bent the knee for the Trump administration? If these corporations think that the Democrats,

[Robin Arzón]

when they come back in power, are

[Preet Bharara]

going to play by the old rules and say, oh, never mind, we'll forgive you, I think they've got another thing coming. I'm Preet Bharara, and this week Ambassador Susan Rice joins me to discuss leadership decision making and the state of the rule of law in America. The episode is out now. Search and follow. Stay tuned with Preet, wherever you get your podcasts. Well, we should say that the two people ICE have killed in Minneapolis were both white. And so, as you point out, that may be the most impressive achievement in the DEI space, in the anti DEI space of the Trump regime. Congratulations, you guys. You finally did it.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Now we've extended cultural colorblind America.

[Preet Bharara]

Yeah. Now everybody is equally targeted. Welcome to the Gray Area Friday. My guest today is Tyler Austin Harper, one of my favorite writers, a pretty interesting guy with a pretty unique story. He was until very recently a professor of environmental studies at Bates College and he's now a full time staff writer at the Atlantic, where he writes about all kinds of things, most notably a piece about the shooting in Minneapolis, which we are going to get into today. But before we do that today, Tyler, that is, that is my intro of you. That is my description of who you are and what you do. How did that land for you? How do you describe what you do, what you do?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

That's pretty accurate. I'm a degenerate journalist and podcaster. That's, that's, you know, that's spot on. Yeah. I do a podcast with Jay Kang from the New York Time to say Goodbye. Yep.

[Preet Bharara]

Yeah.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Former recovering academic.

[Preet Bharara]

Well, what did you feel like you could do as a journalist that you couldn't do as an academic, especially one on the tenure track? The idea of tenure is that you have all this intellectual freedom. You can do and say and write whatever the hell you want without any worries. So why did you feel hemmed in? What did you feel like you could do here that you couldn't do in that space?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

I think I realized I was doing more and more public writing, mostly for the Atlantic, but also the New York Times and a few other places. And over the course of my time as a professor, I realized most of the people I encountered who were intellectually curious and most of the conversations I had that were, you know, driven by a deep interest in the world and ideas were mostly coming from editors and writers and journalists, not academics. As an academic, you are so siloed and so specialized that it's actually really hard to have a substantive and wide ranging conversation with your colleagues, because most of them are so way down some rabbit hole that there's not a familiar corpus of work or ideas you can even discuss. Even within something like an English department. You know, you'd think you would have this common lingua franca, and to a certain extent you do, but not nearly as much as you would think. You know, I don't know that I was, in certain ways I was well suited for academia, but I think I get impatient too quickly and, you know, always have the next project I want to jump on. And journalism was just. Just a better fit. I think in a previous iteration of academia, I probably would have stayed. I think, like I said, there were a number of things going on. Both I wanted to write more than I was writing for the public, but also, you know, teaching at a place that charges $95,000 a year while some of your colleagues don't have health insurance and because they're not on the tenure track. I don't know, I just. I couldn't take it at a certain point.

[Preet Bharara]

Yep.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

I don't want to paint myself as having taken the moral high road in some sort of way. If I would have kept dealing with the ubiquitous exploitation, if that was my only way of getting a paycheck. But I could do something else without making myself financially destitute. So it was an easy choice.

[Preet Bharara]

By the way, 10 points for using the phrase lingua franca. That's well done.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Thanks. Literature, sir.

[Preet Bharara]

I'm also curious. You, like, I didn't know who you were, and then suddenly you were kind of everywhere, like on Twitter. Like, you really lunged pretty aggressively into the, you know, the discourse. Was there something about the politics of the moment that sort of compelled you, for whatever reason, that made you feel like, I've got to get involved? Did you. Did you feel the political gravity of the moment, or were there just other reasons tangential that that led to it? Because you, you're very engaged. Like, very engaged.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Yeah, I think I had a interesting set of personal experiences. You know, I'm a black dude. My dad was a cop. I was employed in a very progressive academic institution and really didn't fit in with the cultural milieu there. And it was a moment where I felt like a lot of people were speaking on my behalf in ways that, you know, really conflicted with a lot of my core beliefs about the world. And so, yeah, I just felt really compelled. I felt like I had something to say about that moment and that I could say it in a way that was not reactionary, that was articulated through tradition, traditional leftist universalism, you know. So, yeah, I felt sort of compelled to intervene, but mostly out of frustration. I was, like I said, working in a very progressive institution that embodied a lot of the trends we saw in 2020, 2021, 2022, that was using the language of justice to paper over severe and spiraling economic exploitation. So, yeah, you know, I felt like I had something to say, so I said it. And yeah, but you're right. I certainly am not shy about sharing my views. I've toned down Twitter mostly because I just really don't like. I don't mind being yelled at at all, truly. I have very thin bother me at all. I just do not like being yelled at when I'm not prepared to be yelled at. So the experience of tweeting something you think is a kind of innocuous observation, then it gets 2 million views and a lot of people are shrieking at you. Like, that experience I didn't like so much, but yeah, so I've toned down Twitter a bit, but certainly was in the trenches for a while.

[Preet Bharara]

So, Minneapolis, how's that for a pivot?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Yeah, yeah.

[Preet Bharara]

You wrote a piece about what happened there. Obviously. Alex Peretti, an American citizen, was shot and killed in the back on the street by agent who apparently was mag dumped. I don't know how many.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

10 rounds. 10 rounds over five seconds, which sounds very quick if you don't shoot, but that is an excruciatingly long time. This unfolded over a while, and the guy kept firing into his back.

[Preet Bharara]

You have time to think in between those.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

You have time to think exactly five seconds. Doesn't sound like a lot, but it's a lot.

[Preet Bharara]

I'm not going to try to summarize your piece because you can do that better than I did, but you did write about it, obviously, and you came at it from, I think, a pretty unique angle. So I'm just going to let you run with that. What did you write? What was the argument you made, more or less? And why did you feel like you needed to say it?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Yeah, I had been warning and saying to friends, colleagues, you know, people in my life over the last week or two before the Predi shooting, that I was very worried that we were going to have a killing stemming from somebody legally exercising the right to carry, whether concealed carry or open carry. I live in Maine. ICE had come to Maine. It was surging into Maine not to the extent that they did in Minneapolis, but for a while they were really ramping up. And I did not trust at all based on what I was seeing coming out of Minneapolis. Right. They are harassing people on the streets solely based on the color of their skin, detaining Native Americans because they don't have a passport on them, pushing people to the ground, grabbing people, etc. This is not a professional organization. And I did not trust at all that they were even familiar with the gun laws in either Minneapolis or Maine, but both of which are states that have relatively liberal, you know, Second Amendment protections.

[Preet Bharara]

Yeah.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

And so it felt inevitable to me that somebody was going to get grabbed who was legally carrying a firearm. ICE being an unprofessional organization, many of their agents knew, very untrained. I really worried you were going to have an untrained agent who feels a gun beneath someone's sweatshirt, doesn't know anything about the gun laws, panics and shoots somebody. And I think when I was telling some friends that they really thought I was because they know I'm a gun person, they thought I was being a kind of kooky gun nut, that, like, this was a silly thing to be worrying about. But that's exactly what happened with Alex Preddy. I felt compelled to speak up because I, like a lot of people, conceal Gary every day for a number of reasons. One, I'm an American and I'm allowed to. But two, I've received death threats for things I've written and said on Twitter, et cetera. And so I come from a family of gun owners. I've owned guns since I was 12. And I felt compelled, as somebody who does carry, to say something. It was not something I was really comfortable speaking up about, but given the circumstances, it felt important that somebody say, as a gun owner, this guy's rights were infringed. He was disarmed, thrown to the ground after being pepper sprayed for trying to help a woman to his feet, her feet shot in the back ten times while disarmed. And I think Something that's been lost here that I just want to mention, Sean. There's been so much discussion of how the shooting starts. Right. Those first couple shots.

[Preet Bharara]

Yep.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

What is lost, and to me is arguably the most important fact. After they shoot him multiple times in the back, the agents scramble backwards and are at that point several feet away from him. If you watch the video, and two, one or two of them continue to fire into his motionless and apparently lifeless body. Four or five more rounds once they're far away from him, his, the threat is neutralized, etc. So this was clearly a state execution. I think people on the right are trying to make the argument that, oh, well, you know, they, they someone heard gun and so they started shooting one. That's not an excuse. The police disarm people who are carrying legally and illegally every day in this country without killing them. But even if you want a grant, this was an untrained or under trained agent who heard someone say gun, panicked and shot. That explains the first couple shots. That does not explain continuing to empty a magazine into a guy's back while he lays on the pavement.

[Preet Bharara]

No, it does not. How long have you been concealed carrying?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

About 18 months. I've been concealed carrying. I've been a gun guy who shoots regularly and is a gun nut, as they put it, for a very long time. But I live in Maine. Maine's a very safe state. And so until I started receiving more threats, it did not seem like something I felt compelled to do. You know, I've had. Have various guns for home protection and always have, but, you know, caring every day was something that is a recent response to just some of those things I mentioned.

[Preet Bharara]

Well, you mentioned death threats. What does that mean? I mean, you got some weird emails, some weird calls, people showed up at your.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

No, no. Nothing as bad as people showing up.

[Preet Bharara]

And what about.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

But this is. I, you know, if you're familiar with my writing, people know I am a, I am on the left side of the spectrum. But I will be honest and say I have written about, I've critiqued the left, I've critiqued the right. I've written about literal neo Nazis. But all of the death threats I've received have been for either my political writing that's been critical of the left or most of it honestly was during the 2024 election where I was very critical of Biden and later on Kamala Harris and the way she was conducting her campaign. Those were the basis of most of the death threats. People felt that I was trying to help elect Trump threatening to come to my house, shoot it up. Not with my address. Thankfully my my address is is delisted. Not not too easy to find. But yeah, I, I, yeah, I've received a number of them. Nothing truly scary. I have friends that work in journalism that have gotten truly scary death threats.

[Preet Bharara]

I, I gotta say I, I feel a little inadequate. I've been all my years doing this. I've, I've only had one half baked death threat which really wasn't a death threat and it was only because I I wrote a piece calling Ted Cruz an and making the argument that he was objectively unlikable by which I still stand. Yeah but that's it. Apparently I haven't really died on the Hill. I just, I haven't written anything interesting or provocative enough to piss off anyone

[Tyler Austin Harper]

else to that I don't get inundated. I probably get, I don't know, three or four years, something like that.

[Preet Bharara]

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[Preet Bharara]

Well, did ICE actually come to Maine?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Oh, yeah, yeah. They were all over Portland.

[Preet Bharara]

Did you feel comfortable walking around concealed, caring after what you saw in Minneapolis? Because you write about, you say something interesting in the piece, which is like, for the first time in your life, you felt like you needed to look a little whiter.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I got my. I. The winter, I usually keep my beard pretty long and my hair sometimes, you know, starts to get more into the Afro territory. So I went to my barber and had both cut short just because they are here to harass the local Somali population. We've seen in other states, we've seen in Minneapolis that they are not. They're solely racially profiling people on the basis of their skin color, stopping them on the street because of how they look or because they have an accent. Um, I don't have an accent, but I've. I am, as they say, racially ambiguous. So it felt prudent to. Yeah, to get a haircut. But I also stopped carrying. I mean, the reason I carry is, you know, to protect myself. And I did a calculus, which was that I'm probably in more danger from these people carrying than I am from anything else. Right. Because I, like I said, I do not trust them to know the laws in Maine. I do not trust them to grab someone like me on the basis of skin color and feel a firearm and panic or dislodge a firearm. It falls to the ground. It just did not Seem worth it. They've since left. I started carrying again. But, yeah, for the week or so, they were in Maine. I left. I left the Glock at home.

[Preet Bharara]

Well, we should say that the two people ICE have killed in Minneapolis were both white. And so, as you point out, that may be the most impressive achievement in the anti DEI space, in the anti DEI space of the Trump regime. Congratulations, you guys. You finally did it.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Now we multicultural, colorblind America.

[Preet Bharara]

Yeah. Now everybody is equally targeted. Well, the piece was titled A Wake up call. Like that. This is A wake up call for the Second Amendment. What do you mean?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

I think we need to realize that the Second Amendment is for everybody. I think Democrats, both strategically and as a matter of politics, but also otherwise, have not taken the Second Amendment seriously enough. I do, I have a lot of problems with the nra. However, I do basically agree with the NRA talking point that the purpose of the Second Amendment is the prevention of government tyranny. It is not to ensure that you can own a deer rifle or a shotgun for home defense or whatever. It does that. That's not the point. The point is to prevent government tyranny, and I think we should take that seriously. If Democrats talk a big game and liberals talk about game a big game and anti Trump people talk a big game about fascism, we're in this moment of fascism. And I have found it persistently beguiling that as they correctly point out all of the warning signs of democracy that are blinking red, that has not changed at all how they've thought about an armed citizenry. Instead, they are still beating the drum of gun control, gun control, gun control, assault weapons ban, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The Virginia state legislator slate is pushing through an assault weapons ban, magazine restrictions, suppressor taxes, et cetera. I realize one can feel a number of ways about that, but it has always just felt a little inconsistent to me to say fascism and authoritarianism are incendent in America and also let's disarm ourselves in liberal states. I find that preposterous, but I do think this was a wake up call for everyone and not just folks, liberal folks on the left. The Trump administration, after the Predi shooting, immediately started talking like the most libbed out lib you can imagine. They were. They were referring to his SIG P320, which is just a standard pistol a lot of people own as a military style pistol, whatever the hell that means. Exactly. They were complaining, oh, he had extra magazines, which is, you know, cash. Patel was like, he had extra Fully loaded magazines, which is, you know, basically tacitly proof that he's a domestic terrorist. Most people, many people who carry, carry an extra magazine. The magazine of the gun, the thing that loads it, is one of the most common failure points. So if you need it and your magazine malfunctions, it's prudent to have a backup. It is not because you are a domestic terrorist. So I really think both. This was a wake up call on two fronts. One for left and liberal folks that actually exercising peacefully are Second Amendment rights is for everyone, but also for folks who might be more conservative that this administration talks a big game about guns and the Second Amendment, but the reality is they are not supporters of the Second Amendment either. Right. Donald Trump is a dude from New York City who likes Broadway plays, a musical theater. He is not a gun guy. Cash Patel is a podcaster. He's not a gun guy. Kristi Noem doesn't know anything about guns. If you see her hold an AR15, it is completely comical.

[Preet Bharara]

Like, I saw it. I saw the clip.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Brutal, brutal, brutal. So these are not gun people. They're not protecting your rights. They're not protecting my rights.

[Preet Bharara]

So we'll do the right and the left. I guess we'll just go with the right first because it's funnier. There's nothing all that surprising about hypocrisy.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Yeah.

[Preet Bharara]

From like this version of the American right, but this has still been pretty fucking stunning. This quickly to basically morph into like an anti. How dare, how dare an American citizen show up to a Protestant with a firearm. This is the same party who, when white militia bros, like, showed up to the, like the state capitol in Michigan.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

My T shirts in their.

[Preet Bharara]

When they're, you know, Bahama, Jama, whatever the hell shirts with rifles, not even concealed.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Right, Right, right.

[Preet Bharara]

That's totally cool. That is freedom in action. Yeah, but, but this. Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. That's. That's a, that's a. That's a bridge too far. I mean that. What do you. What is there to say about that other than it's just rank hypocrisy?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Well, I think it's important to distinguish Trump administration and conservative influencers from conservative American gun enthusiasts, most of whom, in response to this have been really principled and have said, this guy pretty. I don't like his politics, whatever, but he had a right to be doing what he was doing. It's important to note that there is a strong strain of anti federal agent sentiment among the gun community, particularly on the right, particularly among the kind of quasi libertarian right, people hate the feds. And I think this has awoken some of that anti fed sentiment, which goes back to Ruby Ridge and a whole bunch of other pieces of American history.

[Preet Bharara]

Why do you think being pro Second Amendment or pro guns became so right coded? There's nothing inherent about the Second Amendment that that makes it so. I mean, how. A lot of people don't even know. I mean, one of the reasons we have stricter gun laws is because of the Black panthers. Like in 1967, they were doing armed patrols against police abuse, and the state of California was like, whoa, we did we black guys with guns. Wait a minute, the Second Amendment thing, maybe we need to reconsider, you know, but, but, but now it's, it's so right coded. Is that just like an accident of history or. I mean, do you have some.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

I think it is partly a reflection of the changing demographic base of the Democratic Party, which is more highly educated, but more importantly, much more urbanized and suburbanized. Right. Not to say people in cities. And I mean, we just saw people in cities in Minneapolis who are, who are gun owners. Not to say people in cities don't own guns. But certainly it is more rural coded, working class coded than it is associated with people live in urban areas in the professional class. So to me, the, a lot of the gun stuff with the Democratic Party is just a reflection of the changing makeup of its base. The fact that it is now the party of the professional class, it is now the party of the educated, it's now the party of the affluent, it's no longer the party of the working class. God willing, maybe again one day it will be. But for right now, it's not. It certainly isn't. And so I think those Second Amendment politics, the gun control politics, are just a reflection of the demographic makeup of the Democratic Party.

[Preet Bharara]

Before Minnesota, Illinois basically wrote a playbook

[Tyler Austin Harper]

on how to fight back against Trump's ICE crackdown. Governor J.B. pritzker told everyone in the

[Preet Bharara]

state to take action when ICE came to town. Pull out your phones, film everything.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

They're shooting moms in the face.

[Preet Bharara]

Yeah.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

So peaceful protest seems like the least you could do. And what we should be encouraging people to do. They, you know, they've shot somebody here in Chicago five times for just observing from her car.

[Preet Bharara]

Illinois created an accountability commission, took ICE agents to court, and when Trump sent in the National Guard, they blocked them from the streets, and they won. A model for Trump resistance on the state level today explained drops every weekday and now Saturdays Too. I hate to even ask this, and I hate to use this phrase turning point, because I've been in this business for, you know, the entire Trump era and twice a month something happens that's a turning point. But here I am on the left at least. Do you feel like this may be some kind of trigger right, where like maybe, maybe the left might start reconsidering its orientation to. I think certainly guns in the Second Amendment.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

I think certainly some people are, I think the grassroots everyday Democrats are more quickly than the party is. I mentioned earlier what's going on in Virginia. There are other similar pushes elsewhere. So I think everyday Democrats, absolutely. I have had a lot of friends who know I'm a gun person ask will you take me shooting? Will you show me how one of these things works? If I wanted to buy a gun, what should I buy? Etc. So I think that is really, really, really changing for reasons that make perfect sense. People are scared. You have armed federal agents who are behaving lawlessly, running roughshod over civic liberties. People are, are rightly afraid. And they feel like we are in a, a moment that is perhaps slipping toward authoritarianism. And so I buy that.

[Preet Bharara]

Do you buy that?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

That we're, we're slipping toward authoritarian. Yeah, yeah, I believe that. And this is not my original distinction, but I will repeat it. There is an important distinction to make between Donald Trump and Trumpism and MAGA ism. I also think there's an important distinction to make between Trump supporters and Trump voters, by which I mean people who support full throatedly Donald Trump's agenda and people who have voted for him even perhaps three times. Many people who support him just hate the Democratic Party or who vote for him just hate the Democratic Party, but are not. They think he's an idiot.

[Preet Bharara]

You know, that may be most.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Actually that may be most so. But to answer your question, do I think Donald Trump is fascist sympathetic? Sure. Do I think he's a fascist? Not really. I think he is a what he's always been, a con artist and a grifter. I think he wants to make a lot of money on various crypto and bribery schemes, which by the way he seems to be doing with remarkable success. I think some estimates he's earned $1 billion in wealth since he ascended to the presidency for the second time. I think that's where when the rubber meets the road, that's what he cares about. He doesn't care about Stephen Miller's bullshit Nazi fantasies. If those are compatible with him enriching himself, then great. But the moment that comes into conflict with his financial self interest, I think Donald Trump clearly backs off. I do think elements of MAGA are absolutely authoritarian. I mean, we are seeing. Oh, yeah, Twitter accounts associated with this administration, the Department of Homeland Security, tweeting KKK song references in Nazi phraseology. So, yeah, absolutely. But I don't think Donald Trump is. And in a way, I think Donald Trump is what is keeping the lid on this thing right now.

[Preet Bharara]

Well, no, I mean, that's part of what's sort of vexing about Trump, right? Is that, like, the unseriousness, right? Like, if he. If he is a fascist, it is by accident.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Yeah, right.

[Preet Bharara]

Like, it's not like, he, like, you know, read, like, the history of fascism and, like, you know, like Carl Schmidt, right. Like, he's just bebopping along, right? And like, sometimes he careens into something, like, uber fascist, and sometimes it's just. I don't know, you're just. You know, this guy just wants garden variety, you know, idiocy. But, like, But. But the Stephen Millers of the world, right, who are serious, like, deadly serious, see that unseriousness. They see him as like an avatar onto which they can project whatever they need to because he doesn't really give a shit, Right? So he's. It almost makes him more dangerous because he is a vehicle.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Preet Bharara]

For people who are. Who are serious and do have, like, a real worldview and want to impose it. And that's just. Again, that's just been the story of this entire era. You know what I mean? Yeah. I don't know, man. Here's another hackneyed question, but what do you think? Where does this go?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

It feels to me that the same fundamentals of Trumpism that held in Trump 1 are holding in Trump 2. I think it's taken a while for us to realize that, but just like the Muslim ban in Trump 1 or the kids in cages or whatever it is, if public sent. If there's enough public pushback, if there's enough public resistance, he will cave. Because at the end of the day, what he cares about is the stock market. And so I haven't seen anything that changes those basic fundamentals. We saw this with tariffs, where he backed off on some of the tariff stuff after the stock market got wobbly. Wall street is not going to tolerate in masked agents terrorizing American cities, executing citizens. God forbid there starts to be conflict between a local National Guard and federal agents, which it looked like we were potentially on track for in Minneapolis.

[Preet Bharara]

I was worried about that.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

I was Exactly. I was worried about that too. Yeah, the market will freak out. And Donald Trump doesn't want a market freak out. He doesn't want to be worried about the 25th Amendment or impeachment. He just wants to continue making money and then pardon everyone on his way out. And so I, I do think this illustrated that those same fundamentals of the Trump era still hold, which is that if he, at some level, one, he wants the market to be stable, but two, he wants to be liked in some kind of way. And if you push hard enough and if public, the political opinion swings enough, he backs off. And I haven't seen anything that changes that, to be honest with you. I would be much more worried if JD Vance is in office and I am in Donald Trump, because I think Vance has ideologies and ideas in a way that Trump just doesn't. And I think Trump's utilitarianism and his greed and avarice are ironically an important safeguard.

[Preet Bharara]

If you had to make the pro second Amendment case to a fellow lefty, right, to someone who doesn't like guns, doesn't like gun culture or doesn't understand it, or as is maybe more often, the case, doesn't like the people who like guns and gun culture, what is your pitch to them, to kind of like, what is your pro second amendment pitch?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Well, I'll give you the pitch and then what I would advise gun curious liberals to do, my pitch would be to ask yourself, sure, in a vacuum, many people, I'm sure, agree that this country would be better off if there weren't guns. But we are not another country. American gun culture is deeply entrenched in hundreds of years of our history, going back to the revolution, you would have, yeah, the ship has sailed. You would have an easier time getting cheese out of France. And so you should recognize that when you talk about something like an assault weapons ban, which might pass at state levels but will never pass at the federal level. And what's more, logistically, there are millions of AR15s all over this country. When you talk about assault weapon ban and things like that, you are engaging in a thought experiment that is untethered from political reality. And the question you should ask yourself is accepting that guns are here, what, what are the odds in your mind that we are slipping toward some kind of technologically updated fascism powered by Palantir and an authoritarian Trump administration? I'd put the odds at like 10% or 15%. That's a lot of percent that low, maybe a little higher, maybe 20, maybe 25%. But whatever it is, even if it's as low as 10%, you really want to bet on that?

[Preet Bharara]

That's still high.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

That's still very high. So my, my pitch to if you are somebody saying this administration is fascist and Authoritarian and Nazi 2.0, if you were living in Nazi Germany, would you rather be armed or unarmed? And if your answer is, well, I'd probably rather be armed, then I think you should at minimum take seriously the right of your fellow Americans to keep and bear arms. Does that mean you personally need to go out and arm yourself? No. If you don't like guns, that's totally fine. But I think you should at least take seriously that there might be a bit of a contradiction between the insistence that this administration is authoritarian and that they're going to cancel the elections. And also guns are bad and we should ban assault weapons. I don't think those are consistent positions. Now, if you are a gun skeptical or gun curious liberal, what I would recommend you do is just go to a range, look up the Yelp reviews beforehand. If a place gets pretty good reviews, odds are it's going to be.

[Preet Bharara]

You can't trust Yelp reviews. Come on.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Whatever. A normal, comparatively apolitical, Most gun shops in most parts of the country, particularly the parts of the country liberals live in, try to be apolitical. The people are nice. Gun culture is way more diverse than liberals imagine. They are all imagining, like these, like, mouth breathing, like there are all sorts of people in the average American gun shop. It is not as scary as you think. And, and just go and give it a shot. At minimum, even if you come away saying, I didn't like that experience, I don't want to own a gun, I never want to shoot again, you're probably going to come away with some of the myths that you had built up in your head about what these people are like, a little bit busted. And I think at minimum, that's good.

[Preet Bharara]

It is kind of fun.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

No, it's so fun. Like, there is one of the reasons I'm saying just go and try it is it's very hard to go shooting and you should be safe and you should, you know, know all the proper procedures.

[Preet Bharara]

And look at you, you're so responsible.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

But, but I was a former range safety officer. That's why I'm saying all that. That was my first job in high school. I worked at a gun club. But I say all that. It's fun as hell. There's, there's very little chance that you, you go shooting and you, you Might still come away and say, I think these should be banned, but there's no chance you don't have a good time.

[Preet Bharara]

It's really loud. What if. What if you just don't like guns because they're so fudgeing loud?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

That's what suppressors are for. The only good thing Donald Trump has done in this administration is he. He's taken the suppressor tax stamp from $200 to $0.

[Preet Bharara]

So it has been a while since I've been to the range, but the last time I went, I did. I didn't have my muffs, and so I just had to put on it, like, little styles.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Yeah, the little spongies.

[Preet Bharara]

Holy shit. I couldn't hear for like, 72 hours. So, kids, if you're listening, get your muffs.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Well, actually, this brings up a point, if you don't mind. Like, I. Another thing that I think really matters is that even if you are a liberal bent on gun control, you should advocate for smarter gun controls and you should actually know something about firearms. One of the main problems liberals run into around guns is that they don't understand them, they don't know anything about them, and they advocate forms of gun control that save no lives while just pissing off gun owners. Right now in Virginia, a prime example is they are trying to raise the tax on suppressors. Suppressors are what Hollywood refers to as silencers. They sound really scary, but what a suppressor does is make a rifle slightly quieter. They do not silence anything in AR15.

[Preet Bharara]

It is not the movie.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

No, it is not the movie. AR15 556 round is about 160, 170 decibels. A suppressor reduces that to 130 or 140. It is still loud as shit. The point of a suppressor, the reason so many people own them and apply to get tax stamps so they can buy them is they spend a lot of time at the range and it saves their hearing. Right, But. But Democrats in Virginia, suppressors sound scary, so we're going to make them harder to own. Meanwhile, suppressors are nearly never used in crime. You are not saving any lives. You were just pissing off gun owners who are mostly just trying to protect their hearing. So, yeah, the best thing you can do if you are listening to this and you are an enthusiastic proponent of gun control is at least learn a little bit about guns and gun culture so you can advocate in ways that are smart and not just political theater.

[Preet Bharara]

Anything else you want to say about any of this before we get up out of here?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

No. No, I think that's it, man. Thank you for letting me rant.

[Preet Bharara]

So I guess we're gonna. Because I think my team here is, like, hell bent on. On making me look as goofy as possible, please, in front of as many people as possible. So we're gonna do this, like, credit thing where he tells me, like, the line and then I gotta say it. If, you know, if you feel the need to comment on anything, like a booger flies out of my nose or

[Tyler Austin Harper]

gotcha, I'll let you know. I'll give you a marble.

[Preet Bharara]

Something you can. You can give me about it. All right. All right. All right. This episode is produced by Beth Morrissey and Thor. New writer this episode was produced by Beth Morrissey and Thor New Rider edited by the Jorge house Edited by the Jorge just engineered by Shannon Mahoney and Christian Ayala Engineered by Shannon Mahoney and Christian Ayala Theme song by Emma Munger. Theme song by Emma Munger. Thanks to Devon Howard thanks to Devon Howard for running our studio. For running our studio. Again, thanks to Devon Howard for running our studio. Thanks to Devon Howard for running our studio. This show is part of vox. This show is part of vox. You can support vox his journalism by joining our membership program today. Support vox's journalism by joining our membership program today. Get out the old clickety clack get out the old clickety clack and go to vox.com. what is a clickety clack?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

What the.

[Preet Bharara]

What the is a clickety clack? All right, I'm sorry. Get Break out the clickety clack and go to Vox.com members to sign up. And go to Vox.com members to Sign up. And if you decide to sign up because of this channel show, let us know. And also if you decide to sign up because of the delightful words you just heard today from Tyler Austin Harper, also let us know and tell us it was because of this show. Tyler, what would you like to say for yourself before we go? The floor is yours.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

You can find my writing at the Atlantic. I podcast every week with Jay Kang at the podcast. Time to say goodbye. If you're gonna buy a gun, do so responsibly. But do so.

[Preet Bharara]

I like ending on a pro safety note. So, yeah, this is great, man. You're awesome, man.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Oh, this is so fun. Really fun.