Episode 353: 'Ajax' by Sophocles

Summary

The Great Books Podcast: Episode 353 – 'Ajax' by Sophocles

Host: John J. Miller
Guest: James Brandon, Professor of Theater at Hillsdale College
Release Date: December 17, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 353 of The Great Books Podcast, host John J. Miller welcomes James Brandon, a theater professor from Hillsdale College, to delve into Sophocles' ancient tragedy, Ajax. Brandon, who has previously discussed plays like Oedipus Rex, Mother Courage, and The Seagull, brings his academic and directorial insights to explore the intricacies of this classic work. Recording from Hillsdale College's WRFH station in Michigan, their conversation promises a rich exploration of Ajax’s themes, characters, and enduring relevance.

Why 'Ajax' is a Great Book

James Brandon opens by highlighting the uniqueness of Ajax within the Greek tragedy genre. Unlike traditional tragedies where the protagonist's fall is central, Ajax subverts expectations by featuring the hero’s on-stage suicide midway through the play. Brandon remarks, “Ajax actually talks more about the legacy of the hero than about the fall of the hero. And I find that to be remarkable” ([00:50]). This bold narrative choice sets Ajax apart, offering a fresh perspective on the tragic condition and resisting the formulaic patterns often associated with tragedy.

Plot Overview of 'Ajax'

Brandon provides a comprehensive overview of the play, situating it post-Iliad during the prolonged Trojan War. The play begins with Odysseus investigating the mysterious slaughter of Greek livestock, leading him to suspect Ajax. Brandon explains, “Athena is the root cause of everything... the judges decide to award Achilles golden armor to Odysseus, and this enrages Ajax” ([03:04]). Ajax’s subsequent descent into madness, fueled by the perceived injustice and influenced by Athena’s intervention, drives him to commit acts of violence against the Greek camp’s livestock, mistaking them for his enemies.

Directing 'Ajax' at Hillsdale College

Discussing his recent staging of Ajax, Brandon reveals his directorial choices aimed at emphasizing the play’s macabre elements without resorting to graphic gore. “[...] we created. We turned the hut into a kleclima on its own” ([06:04]). This innovative approach visually represents Ajax’s inner turmoil and the chaos he unleashes. By using members of the chorus to portray the slaughtered animals and incorporating stark imagery, Brandon successfully conveys the horror of Ajax’s actions, leaving a lasting impression on the audience.

Ajax's Realization and Aftermath

Brandon describes the pivotal moment when Ajax confronts his deeds and seeks solace, highlighting his interactions with Tecmessa, his mistress. “[...] he is horrified, and I think most importantly, he's ashamed at what he's done” ([08:43]). This confrontation underscores Ajax’s profound sense of shame and his quest for redemption. The strained relationship between Ajax and Tecmessa adds depth to his character, portraying the complexities of honor and personal relationships in the face of tragedy.

The Chorus and Elements of Greek Drama

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the role of the Greek chorus in Ajax. Brandon elucidates, “A Greek chorus is like a professional audience... they ask the questions that we are thinking about in our own heads” ([11:09]). The chorus serves both as a commentator and as a bridge between the audience and the unfolding drama, providing intellectual context and emotional resonance. This dual function distinguishes Greek drama from contemporary forms, where the chorus’s presence is absent.

Themes of Fate and Heroism in Greek Drama

Brandon delves into the intrinsic themes of fate and hubris in Greek tragedy, emphasizing how characters like Ajax navigate predestined outcomes. “[...] how Ajax responds when he's dealt a setback... there’s a lot in Greek drama about the needs of the many versus the needs of the one” ([12:56]). The inevitability of fate and the struggle between personal honor and collective responsibility are central to understanding Greek dramatic tradition and Ajax’s tragic arc.

The Concept of Suicide in 'Ajax'

The conversation turns to the portrayal of suicide, a contentious theme in Ajax. Brandon explains, “The Greeks would have seen it as an honorable way out” ([14:27]). For Ajax, suicide represents a dignified escape from disgrace, aligning with ancient Greek values that prioritize honor and legacy. This perspective contrasts with modern views on suicide, adding layers to Ajax’s characterization and the play’s moral dilemmas.

Handling Ajax's Legacy and Burial

Post-suicide, the play shifts focus to the aftermath of Ajax’s death, particularly the contentious debate over his burial. Brandon notes, “[...] Burial is a way to remember Ajax” ([17:32]). This conflict mirrors themes from Sophocles’ Antigone, exploring the tension between divine law and human authority. The struggle to honor Ajax’s legacy against political expediency highlights the enduring human concern with memory, honor, and respect for the deceased.

Sophocles' Legacy in Greek Drama

Brandon situates Sophocles within the broader context of Greek playwrights, distinguishing his contributions from those of Aeschylus and Euripides. “[...] Sophocles had a better publicist than Aeschylus or Euripides” ([27:54]). His works, particularly Oedipus Rex, were celebrated by Aristotle as exemplars of Greek tragedy, cementing Sophocles’ influence on Western dramatic tradition. This legacy underscores the enduring relevance and studied prominence of Sophocles’ plays.

Relevance of 'Ajax' Today

Addressing contemporary relevance, Brandon draws parallels between Ajax’s struggles and the experiences of modern veterans dealing with PTSD and shame. “[...] there has been an attack, an attack on the Greek herds. All of the livestock that they've captured from the Trojans... And he ends up killing sheep and cows” ([05:51]). He emphasizes that the emotional and psychological battles faced by Ajax resonate with today’s society, particularly in the context of ongoing conflicts and their impact on soldiers’ mental health. This timeless exploration of trauma and honor makes Ajax a poignant reflection on the human condition.

Conclusion

In this insightful episode, James Brandon offers a profound analysis of Sophocles’ Ajax, blending scholarly interpretation with practical directorial experience. From dissecting the play’s unique structure and thematic depth to drawing connections with modern societal issues, Brandon illuminates why Ajax remains a compelling and relevant work. Listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the play’s enduring significance within both the ancient and modern contexts, reaffirming the timeless power of Greek tragedy.

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Notable Quotes:

• James Brandon: “Ajax actually talks more about the legacy of the hero than about the fall of the hero. And I find that to be remarkable.” ([00:50])

• James Brandon: “A Greek chorus is like a professional audience... they ask the questions that we are thinking about in our own heads.” ([11:09])

• James Brandon: “The Greeks would have seen it as an honorable way out.” ([14:27])

• James Brandon: “Sophocles had a better publicist than Aeschylus or Euripides.” ([27:54])

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Further Engagement

Listeners are encouraged to subscribe to The Great Books Podcast, leave reviews, and share ideas for future episodes. For more information or to reach out, visit heyman heymiller.com or follow on Twitter @heymiller.

Transcript

[James Brandon]

Foreign.

[John J. Miller]

Welcome to the Great Books Podcast. Today we'll talk about Ajax by Sophocles. I'm your host, John J. Miller of National Review, and you're listening to a production of National Review. Our guest is James Brandon, a professor of theater at Hillsdale College, where he recently directed a production of Ajax. He's podcasted with us previously on Oedipus Rex by Sophocles, as well as Mother Courage by Bertolt Brecht and the Seagull by Anton Chekhov. He joins us in the studio as we record from Hillsdale College's campus radio station, WRFH in Michigan. James, welcome back to the Great Books Podcast.

[James Brandon]

Always happy to be here to talk about great literature and especially about great plays.

[John J. Miller]

Why is Ajax by Sophocles a great book?

[James Brandon]

I think it's a great book for a variety of reasons. One of them is that it's a different kind of Greek tragedy. It disobeys some of the things that you might expect to find in a traditional Greek tragedy. The obvious one being spoiler alert that the protagonist commits suicide midway through the play and he does so on stage. And so a lot of things that we take for granted about the Greek theater are sort of messed up in that moment. And so I think it's a bold and different kind of expression of the tragic condition by Sophocles. And so I think it's a great book because it stands out in a unique genre of literature as something that's odd. And I think that really matters at a point where you sort of feel like tragedy might be a kind of paint by numbers thing. It's the same thing every time. And Ajax actually talks more about the legacy of the hero than about the fall of the hero. And I find that to be remarkable.

[John J. Miller]

Going to talk about all of that Ajax and his tragic choice, the other characters in this story, where the tale of Ajax fits in the broader story of the Trojan War. What is Greek drama? What makes it special? And also James's recent staging of this play and the kinds of decisions a director must make to bring it to life. James, let's just jump right into the first scene of Ajax, written in the 5th century BC play begins with Odysseus, a familiar character, on stage, with Athena, a familiar Greek goddess. And it takes place before the tent of Ajax, although he's not on stage, not yet. Odysseus is looking at footprints and Athena appears from above. Who are these characters and what's going on?

[James Brandon]

Well, there's been an incident in the army camps Remember, this is during the Trojan War. So at this point, the Greeks have been over in Troy for about 10. So this is a long war and something has happened in.

[John J. Miller]

And this is after the events of the Iliad.

[James Brandon]

Correct. Achilles, the greatest hero of the Greeks, dies at the end of the Iliad. And what happens after that is the reason that this whole play takes place. But what's happened immediately before the play begins is that there has been an attack, an attack on the Greek herds. All of the livestock that they've captured from the Trojans and that they're using to feed the army has been slaughtered along with the guard dogs and the guardsmen. And there is a rumor going about camp that it's Ajax who did it. And Odysseus is trying to figure out what happened. And his trail has led him right to Ajax's hut.

[John J. Miller]

So what does Athena have to do with it?

[James Brandon]

Athena is the root cause of everything. At the end of the Iliad, when Achilles falls and his body is recovered, Achilles is famous because he has this great golden armor. And the Greeks have to decide who inherits the legacy of Achilles, the greatest hero of the army. And the two primary contenders for that are Ajax and Odysseus. And they have a contest and you know, Ajax wins some parts and Odysseus wins other parts. And it's sort of like a mixed martial art fight that has to go to the judges. And the judges decide to award Achilles golden armor to Odysseus. And this enrages Ajax. He feels that he deserves it by right. He's the second strongest warrior in the army after Achilles. And it just drives him really insane. So much so that he decides he's going to get revenge upon the rest of the Greeks, Odysseus and the kings, Agamemnon and Menelaus. He blames all of them. And so in the middle of the night, he sneaks out of his hut and goes to murder all of them. And Athena, who has taken a shine to Odysseus, even though she was a great supporter of Ajax in the past, blinds him in a way. She clouds his eyes. And what happens is Ajax ends up going to the livestock and he thinks he's killing the Greeks. He's in fact murdering sheep and cows. And his madness lasts for a while. And so he's murdered pretty much all of their livestock. And he doesn't know he's done it. He thinks that he's killed and is also even torturing them. So he's got animals in his hut that he's whipping because he thinks they are Odysseus and Menelaus.

[John J. Miller]

The revelation of this, at least to Ajax and then to the audience on stage, when you directed a production here at Hillsdale College was really dramatic. I was struck by it. Describe what you did, how you did it, why you did it.

[James Brandon]

Well, the first time we see Ajax, we've got this very first scene where Odysseus is looking for Ajax, and Athena pops out and says, yep, it was him, he did it. And here's why. And let me show you how crazy he is. And so Ajax comes out of his hut and at that point, his hands are covered in blood. He's mad. He's truly mad. And he's yelling at Athena. He's treating Athena like she's a colleague rather than a goddess. And so you really see how far gone he is. And then he goes back into the hut. We're not going to see Ajax again until a little bit later. And when he is revealed, the Greeks would have this thing called an ecleclima. And what it was is basically a rolling platform that they would use to show off the results of violence, right? So at the end of a play like Aeschylus's Agamemnon, you know, Agamemnon and Clytemnestra are murdered. We see them because an acleclima rolls out and the dead bodies are on it. I wanted to play with that, not with the first reveal of Ajax, which is supposed to be the opening of his hut. And so we created. We turned the hut into a kleclima on its own. Right? And so the first time we see Ajax, the hut that he is in turns, and as it turns, it reveals Ajax and the bodies of the animals that have been slaughtered. Those bodies are played by members of the Greek chorus. And so I used human bodies to stage that moment, and then animal skulls. And so it was a. I don't know if fun is the right word, but it was an interesting way to show the carnage that he's wrought.

[John J. Miller]

It was macabre. It was striking, I thought, in the audience.

[James Brandon]

Well, I mean, that was the point, really, is this is a horrific thing that he's done. And, you know, what does it look like? And of course, you know, I shied away from making it really visceral and graphic. There wasn't a lot of blood, there weren't entrails and all that kind of stuff. We really had some stark imagery. And I thought the simple choices actually probably served the moment better than some kind of Hollywood gore.

[John J. Miller]

When does Ajax realize what he has done? In fact, he's gone through a moment of what we might today call temporary insanity and does this crazy thing for which he feels now incredible shame.

[James Brandon]

He comes out of it and he forces his mistress, Tecmassa, who's a concubine, as the mother of his son.

[John J. Miller]

She's a baby mama.

[James Brandon]

Well, she's actually spoils from war. He won her with his spear, and they've been together a long time at this point, and they've come to have a good relationship. And so he forces her to tell him what he has done in great detail. And then he is just. He's lamenting, he can't believe it. He's horrified, and I think most importantly, he's ashamed at what he's done.

[John J. Miller]

And she humanizes him, right? I mean, she's almost a common law wife and they have a child together.

[James Brandon]

Well, and it's not a great relationship. I mean, you know, people in the modern audience look at some of the things that Ajak says to her, and it's clear. She's his lover, but she's also his slave. And so he tells her to basically shut up, or he says, I'm not listening to you, or walk away. At one point, he pushes her away. It's not a healthy relationship, modern perspective, but it is, I think, an honest one, based on what Homer and Sophocles have given us.

[John J. Miller]

Okay, so Ajax has this revelation. He discovers what he actually has done, feels this profound shame. What happens next?

[James Brandon]

He, very early on, asks the leader of the chorus to help him kill himself. So he goes to the suicidal as a way to redeem his honor. He sees that, at least at the beginning, is the only way out. And then we spend a number, a couple of scenes in the play where Tecmessa and the chorus are all trying to convince him, no, he needs to live. He's an important man. This was something that the gods made him do. And it seems in the course of the play that maybe they've won out because he has a moment where he comes back out and he says, you know, I've reconsidered everything. Maybe I should listen more to Menelaus and Agamemnon. Maybe I should go wash myself off from the defilement. Maybe I should go ask the gods for forgiven. It results in a choral ode. I think it's the third choral ode, which is an ode of joy because his people are so excited that he's not going to kill himself, that maybe he's going to be able to come out of this.

[John J. Miller]

I want to ask what makes this a Greek drama, apart from the fact that a Greek guy wrote it in Greece about Greek subjects? And let's start with this question of the chorus. The Greek chorus. What is a Greek chorus? How does it function in this play?

[James Brandon]

Well, there's lots of ways to describe a Greek chorus. I normally tell my students that a Greek chorus is like a professional audience. Right. They are there to have the kinds of reactions that we are supposed to be having. I sort of compare it to if you watch a television sitcom and it's got canned laughter, you know, there's not a live studio audience. It tells us that something's funny. Right? And that's an important factor in live theater. We're much more likely to have reactions if other people are having reactions alongside of us. One level, the chorus acts as a professional audience member. At the other level, they're kind of our stand in because the chorus asks the questions that we are thinking about in our own heads. Right. The chorus gives voice to that, and they give us a way to intellectually think about the things that we've seen. Right. So in Greek drama, you have a scene and then you have a choral ode that follows it, and then a scene and a choral ode. And the choral odes are more intellectual. I mean, they're contemplative. They're talking about what we just saw, what happened, what it means. And then the primary actors. The actors are then enacting the scenes. And as the drama moves forward, the chorus is part of it, but they're also sort of apart from it. Right. Their odes are a way to comment upon what has just happened and illuminate the audience, I think, and help us along the path.

[John J. Miller]

So the presence of the chorus is, in my mind, at least, the most obvious element of Greek drama. What makes us Greek? What else makes us a Greek drama different from, say, an Elizabethan drama or something written today?

[James Brandon]

Well, everything is based upon fate. Remember, all of these stories in the Greek tragedies that we have are stories that the audience already knew coming into the theater, right? Spoiler alert. At the end of Titanic, the boat sinks. Everybody knows that walk into that movie. Everyone knows what has happened to Ajax and Oedipus and Antigone before they walk into the theater. And so there is this way in which we're telling old stories and there's no way out of it. There's no mystery about, you know, Ajax is going to kill himself. Oedipus is going to find out that he's the murderer that he seeks. This is going to happen. What's interesting for the Greeks is how people act, how people behave in these fated moments, in these moments that they can't escape from. And that's where the idea of hubris and false pride sort of finds its way in. You know, how does Ajax respond when he's dealt a setback? When he doesn't get the golden armor, he reacts very poorly. He reacts in a shameful way. And it would have been far worse except for the intervention of Athena. And so what it ends up being far worse for is him rather than the whole Greek army. And that's important, too. There's a lot in Greek drama about the needs of the many versus the needs of the one or the few. Right.

[John J. Miller]

So Ajax, in Greek lore is our second best hero after Achilles, maybe our greatest hero alive now, at the point of this play. But he does this shameful thing, goes off and kills the goats and the cows. Is it unheroic to commit suicide? Or do the Greeks have seen that as an act of heroism? It's better to die than to suffer disgrace.

[James Brandon]

The Greeks would have seen it as an honorable way out. You know, Ajax actually reasons through, you know, what can I do now? Now that I've been shamed, what can I do? Should I just go out and charge the Trojan walls? You know, Troy hasn't fallen yet, and let them kill me? Should I just sail my tail between my legs, take my ball and go home? And he doesn't find any of those to be satisfactory answers. And I think mostly he is concerned about what his father, Telamon, who was a great warrior in his own time. Telamon was a buddy of Hercules. A lot of their great adventures happened together. And so he's really worried about coming home without the prizes that his father expects him to win. And so I think he finds suicide to be the logical way out and the honorable way out of the situation.

[John J. Miller]

There's no sense of redemption, at least in his mind. He doesn't think this is a thing that he can overcome.

[James Brandon]

No, I don't think he thinks it's something he can overcome. Right. Everyone around him seems to think that it is, but he is not. He doesn't have that sort of train of thought. And so suicide for him becomes the obvious way out.

[John J. Miller]

And so he kills himself maybe two thirds of the way through the play. What happens then?

[James Brandon]

Well, it's almost like we start a new play, right? We have the end of Ajax. He impales himself on the sword that Hector the great Trojan warrior gave him after they fought to a draw his gift. After that the play becomes about what are we going to do with the body? And what are we going to do with the memory of this great hero Ajax, who has been disgraced? And it becomes very similar to one of Sophocles other plays, Antigone, where the friends and family of Ajax want to bury the body in the proper way and the other Greeks, led by Agamemnon and Menelaus, want to leave the body out for scavengers and Iscarion and no burial.

[John J. Miller]

Burial's a big deal for the Greeks. How you bury, why you bury. And it is for us too. Obviously this is a very human idea. If we think of acts of corporal mercy and so forth in our Christian world, Judeo, Christian world perhaps. But for the Greeks, burial was a big deal, as you mentioned, it's a major theme of Antigone and different play by Sophocles. It gets into questions of divine law versus human law and so on. But why do they make an especially big deal about burial and what happens to Ajax here? What's at stake?

[James Brandon]

Well, the way you spend the afterlife, eternity is dependent upon whether or not you're buried, right? And if you're buried properly and you're able to pay the toll to get across the river Styx. There's a whole lot of metaphysical things that happen after death that are depend upon the way that you're buried. And so that's one thing. The other thing is this is this legacy. The people that love Ajax, the people that know Ajax best, don't want to lose the great heroic things that he has done. Even though he's had a fall, they want him to be remembered. And burial is a way to remember Ajax. And so Tecmessa and the chorus, and the chorus is supposed to be people from Salamis, which is where Ajax is from, and then his brother, half brother, Teucer. They all want Ajax to be remembered. And they think that he is defined by more than just this terrible act.

[John J. Miller]

That sounds reasonable. So why doesn't everybody just agree to bury the guy and give him a proper funeral?

[James Brandon]

Well, it's partially ego. Menelaus and Agamemnon feel like they have to maintain control over the Greek army. And you can't have a person that has basically tried to commit regicide, somebody that is treasonous, somebody that in the middle of a war turns on his own troops. We gotta make an example of this guy. They also all, you know, a lot of the Greek heroes did not like each other very much. And Ajax, I mean, I don't know that there's anybody in Greek literature that likes Agamemnon, who's really kind of in charge here.

[John J. Miller]

This is no band of brothers.

[James Brandon]

Yeah, no, no, no. There's a lot of egos going on, a lot of competitive stuff going on between the various chieftains. And so, you know, remember, they were all suitors to Helen. And the only reason they're here is because they all agreed, like, you know what, one of us has to win, let's all agree not to kill the other one, and, oh, by the way, let's protect the other one afterwards. And so, no, they don't like each other very much. And there's also. Athena even says this, but I think she's testing Odysseus. She says, isn't one of the greatest things in life in order, you know, to laugh at your enemies when they've fallen? And it turns out that's not actually the path that Athena wants us to go.

[John J. Miller]

So what do you mean by that? Where does Athena want us to go?

[James Brandon]

Well, in many ways, the latter part of the play establishes Odysseus as the kind of hero that we want to have moving forward. See, the big difference between Ajax and Odysseus is that Ajax often gets the. I hate to call it the dumb jock treatment, but he does. It's like he's like the big athlete that can fight and that's all he can do. And that's really not true. Ajax is much more than just that. But Odysseus is clever. Odysseus lives by his wits. Odysseus wins the armor of Achilles because he's more clever than Ajax. He's smarter. He's also, it turns out, capable of changing his mind. And that's something the Greeks seem to have real difficulty with when it comes to the tragedies. Right so near the end of the play when it's become clear that Agamemnon and Menelaus are going to force the issue and they're going to force the followers of Ajax to leave the body. And those followers are willing to die for this. So we're going to have more bloodshed. Odysseus comes on, and Odysseus has been Ajax's greatest enemy. And Odysseus comes on and to the surprise of everyone, says, no, no, no, we ought to bury this body. We need to bury this body. Don't disobey the decrees of the gods, et cetera, et cetera, and so he becomes the primary advocate for his enemy. It makes me think in American history, it makes me think of, you know, John Adams defending the British soldiers in the Boston Massacre. Right. It' that kind of a moment where somebody is clearly selfless, clearly supporting something that is perhaps not in his best interests, at least not according to conventional wisdom.

[John J. Miller]

How does Odysseus carry the day then? Because as you mentioned, Agamemnon and Menelaus don't want to bury him. So what happens? How does he prevail?

[James Brandon]

Well, partially as a friend, you know, I'm somebody you like, I'm somebody you trust. Can I give you good advice? And Menelaus and, well, Agamemnon really is the one that makes the decision at the end. I mean, there's flattery involved. There's the idea that it's almost like, well, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. And that at this point in the war, Odysseus has done so much for Agamemnon that Agamemnon kind of owes him a favor.

[John J. Miller]

And so they. They bury him.

[James Brandon]

They do. The end of the play is the exodus, right? When the chorus leaves, is them carrying out the body for burial. So he is going to be buried. Yes.

[John J. Miller]

Now, when you stage a play, and you've done many plays over the years, Greek ones, Shakespeare, other kinds. When you take a play like Ajax and say, it's time for this one now, we're gonna do this one next season, or whatever, how do you approach it as a director? What do you do when all you have is a text and, you know, I need to bring this to life on stage?

[James Brandon]

Well, as an academic, I get to spend a lot of time with the texts, Right. I mean, I may teach a hundred play in a year and I may direct one. Right. And many of those hundred plays I've taught over and over again. So Ajax has been a play I've been interested in since I first read it, I believe as an undergraduate when I was reading through all of Sophocles. And it stuck in my head as something that was different. And I've just always admired. I've always been a fan of that kind of second guy, like the best friend character, Horatio in Hamlet or Banquo in Macbeth and Ajax to me in the Trojan War in Homer's Iliad, is that guy, right? He's the guy that is right up there. And so I've always been intrigued by the character. I've always been intrigued by his fall. And so in my mind, I gotta think about, well, what's gonna fit in a season with the other plays that we're producing? How many students are active and what are their talents? Do I have a male actor with the physical presence to play this brooding warrior? That is a. And so I have to look at who's around me. I have to look at what shows are going on, and I just have to be motivated by it. And so I start really thinking about a play three or four years before I'll propose it. I might say, hey, maybe in a year or two we're gonna do this. And I'll ask designers and other people in the department to start thinking about it as well. What I tell people is that when you come to Hillsdale College, in the course of four years, you're going to see a good cross section of dramatic literature from the ancient Greeks to the present day. I feel like if you did nothing else but watch the shows here as a student over four years, you get a really good introduction to theater. And a big part of that for us is Greek tragedy. And so we were due for a Greek tragedy, to be sure.

[John J. Miller]

It starts with a text, of course, and with Ajax. Do you have a preferred edition or translation? Then what do you do with it? Do you actually edit it and make it your own? Do you tweak it? How do you do that?

[James Brandon]

As a director, I really prefer the Ian Johnston edition of the play. He's a Canadian translator. He's translated a ton of the ancient Greeks. I just find it to be. You know, when you're looking at translations, there are translations that try to be accurate, very accurate. And there are translations that try to be stageable. And I'm always interested in the ones that are stageable, because getting the words exactly right is not as important to me as having words that actors can speak that sound interesting on the stage. Now, I chose a translator who basically said, take it, do what you want with it. You know, cut it, change it. Just make sure I get credit, don't worry about paying royalties. And I didn't do hardly anything to this script. I really should have. In retrospect, I could have cut a solid 10 minutes out of it. That's Sophocles fault, because Sophocles repeats himself a few times in the course of the text. But I didn't change much of anything. In fact, I think the only language I changed was that we had female actors playing. Well, of course, there would have been no women in the ancient Greek theater, but Tecmessa and Athena are obvious choices. But I also had My choral leader was a female, the messenger and half of the chorus. And so where gendered language mattered, we changed it. You know, changed a he to a she, that sort of thing.

[John J. Miller]

What's the power of live theater? Why do you like it so much? Because we have TVs and movies, and I love TV shows and watching movies. But live theater, theater, it's similar, but it's also fundamentally different.

[James Brandon]

I always tell students, the first time I saw the movie Dumb and Dumber, it was in a theater. It was in like a second run theater. It cost like two bucks to get in, and nobody was laughing. Like the audience did not find the film funny. That didn't affect the film at all. The film was exactly the same. Live theater, you do a comedy like that and the audience isn't laughing, and it's just deadly awful for the actors. They're is the symbiotic relationship, the live relationship between actor and audience, where what we do affects the audience as actors and directors, but what the audience does affects the performers. And that's what live theater is all about. And that's why I love it, because you are working in the moment with people and you're working with reactions, and you're working, I think, most importantly with energy. And there's nothing like the energy that a performer gets from a live audience, especially when that audience is engaged.

[John J. Miller]

Sophocles, as a writer of dramas, certainly would have noticed that. He would have responded. He would have liked that about this form. Where does Sophocles fit into the tradition of Greek drama? He comes chronologically between Aeschylus and Euripides, and I suppose those are the big three of Greek drama. But what makes Sophocles stand out? How is he different from those other two? What is his legacy?

[James Brandon]

Aeschylus is the older generation. Sophocles and Euripides come along later, but they are all working together and they're all reacting to each other's work. Sophocles during his lifetime is the most recognized playwright at the city. Dionysia. At the theater festival in Athens, he wins more awards than either Aeschylus or Euripides. And so during his lifetime, he's the most lionized of the three. We probably hold him in such high regard because about 80 years later, Aristotle, when he's writing about tragedy in his Poetics, decides that Oedipus Rex by Sophocles is the perfect example of Greek tragedy. And Aristotle just happens to be the tutor to Alexander the Great, who conquers much of the known world and spreads Greek culture creates a Hellenistic time period in which, you know, there's Greek theaters as far as Afghanistan, because everywhere Alexander went, they built theaters. And the way Alexander understood theater, I like to say, is through Aristotle. And Aristotle thought that Sophocles was the best example of the Greek tragic theater. And so we've held that for a long time. Aristotle has been sort of the Theater 101 book for practitioners for the last 2,000 years. And so, you know, Sophocles had a better publicist than Aeschylus or Eurip.

[John J. Miller]

Is there a special reason to stage Ajax right now? You mentioned at a certain level you liked the play. Maybe it was time to do this one. But does Ajax have a special message for us today in the 2000s? Does it speak to us from 2,500 years ago? Does it speak to us now in some important way?

[James Brandon]

Well, sure. Ajax is actually when it is staged, which is very rarely, but it has been staged in recent years, and many times when it is being staged, it's about veterans, and it's about the struggles that veterans go through after war. I mean, the things that we blame on the gods here in this play that Ajax goes through are not all that odd to anybody that's lived with a combat veteran. The kind of demons that Ajax faces are still there today. I mean, I don't know what the stat is, but the amount of suicides by American vets is staggering. I mean, on a daily basis. And so here we have a character who, because of what happened in war, commits suicide. So the issue is still with us today. It's a human issue, it's not a modern issue. And so, you know, there's things in Ajax that remind viewers of ptsd, the shame associated with some of the acts that take place during war. All of these things are there present in this ancient tragedy, and I think they're still present today with a world that hasn't stopped having wars. And also, we are at a time of relative peace right now. But there's a lot of combat veterans walking around this country who know the kinds of feelings that Ajax has felt. And so I think it's important for us to always remember to tell that story. War is hell in a lot of very important ways, and it really seems to be hell on our veterans. And Ajax is, you know, he's still in the war, so it's kind of hard to call him a veteran. But we're at the end at this point. You know, the writing is on the wall that the war is going to be over. But the way he reacts to what happens to him is very relatable today.

[John J. Miller]

James Brandon, thanks so much for joining us and telling us all about Ajax by Sophocles.

[James Brandon]

Thank you, John.

[John J. Miller]

You've just listened to the Great Books Podcast, a production of National Review. Please subscribe to the Great Books Podcast and leave reviews of the show that helps us keep this podcast going. Send me your ideas for future episodes. You can reach me through our website@heyman heymiller.com on Twitter. My handle is hey Miller. Last of all, special thanks to all of you for listening. We will be back after a couple weeks off in 2025 with a new episode of the Great Books Podcast.