Episode 355: The Book of Judith - The Great Books

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[00:00]
Silvina Cerrone
Foreign.
[00:07]
John J. Miller
Welcome to the Great Books Podcast. Today we'll talk about the Book of Judith. I'm your host, John J. Miller of National Review, and you're listening to a production of National Review. Our guest is Silvina Cerrone, an artist and translator who leads the Art for Evangelist community for the Word on Fire Institute. She joins us by Zoom as we record from Hillsdale College's campus radio station, WRFH in Michigan. Sylvina, welcome to the Great Books Podcast.
[00:33]
Silvina Cerrone
Thank you so much, Sean. Thank you so much.
[00:35]
John J. Miller
Why is the Book of Judas a great book?
[00:39]
Silvina Cerrone
First of all, it has this element of being a very fascinating story applied to all times, which is the definition, and it's very well written. It it involves, you know, themes of the conflict between good and evil powers trying to overcome, you know, a very, very small group of people. We have the themes of providence, the themes of trust, the themes of, you know, a virtuous, pious life as opposed to a very godless life. There's a lot of elements in it that make it really, really, really interesting to read.
[01:14]
John J. Miller
We're going to talk about all of that. The biblical story of beheading at the heart of the Book of Judith. Also, this characters, the story where it fits into the Bible, this particular book and the artistic tradition that it launched with artists like Michelangelo and Caravaggio and more. Let's start, though, with the fact that this book has 16 chapters and Judith doesn't show up, the title character doesn't show up until halfway through at the start of chapter eight. The first seven chapters of the Book of Judas describe King Nebuchadnezzar and his general Holofernes and their war on Israel. Silvina, who are these guys and why are they going to war against Israel?
[02:03]
Silvina Cerrone
It's interesting, you know, that even though we have the names of this king and the name of the general, there's a consensus that, you know, this is not really a historical book in the sense that it's not a real historical event as we would think of a historical event in the past. You know, when people told their stories, they tend to do this amalgamation of different characters. So the king here is a representation in a sense of all. It's like a super league of evil villains all together in one. So the way it's described at the very beginning and as you said up to almost the middle of the book, is trying to emphasize the fact that this king is joining together all the power of the known world of the earth right against everybody. So it's almost a representation of evil, you know, trying to assert complete control and replace God. It's very clear from the very beginning of the book and we see all the characters being shown that what the king wants to do is become God in that sense. That's what, you know, the big threat here. And it's very, very put together, you know, in the succession of explanations of places, which by the way, they're not, you know, most historians would say that they're anachronistic, right? The names of the places, they don't even know where they are. But it's setting the stage of this world domination that is coming and setting against that stage these people that are not even well known to them. Like when Holofernes has to come and conquer them, he has to ask a neighbor to see who they are. So it's very clear in the setting of the story that they are of no consequence to anybody. And that is part of the setup of the book to just show how the power of God is going to be so much more manifested because of this enormous power of evil against these little people that are not even known.
[04:09]
John J. Miller
The main setting then is the city of Bethulia, which as you say, is an indeterminate place. We don't know where to find this on the map, although it's named in the book of Judas and there are some theories about where it might be and so forth. But in the story it's the city of Bethulia. It's a gateway to Judea. You need to get to Judea by going through Bethulia. It's in the mountains, it's well defended. And so when the king sends his general Holofernes, he's got to get through Bethulia, he decides not to attack. He decides to cut off its water supply and go into a siege.
[04:49]
Silvina Cerrone
Exactly. Yes. And some interpretations suggest that that is almost to show the cruelty of Holofernes, because as the armies describe as such a powerful force, you know, like it looks like it's this well oiled machine that is going to take over everybody. Everybody's falling, you know, even big names are falling against this army. So it's almost like, let's see, I'm going to make them suffer before they get conquered. There's no doubt in their mind that they're going to be conquered. Holofernes is not even concerned. But the whole siege had to do also with to make people suffer. Siege were the sieges were a horrible thing, right? People starve to death, you know, I'm here. He's even cutting the Water supply which going to be a little faster too. But that's the idea, right? That to show also that the enemy is completely godless and cruel.
[05:43]
John J. Miller
So the people of Bethulia lose their water supply and they cry out for peace. They go to their leader Uzziah, and he promises to surrender the city if God doesn't rescue them in five days. At this point, Judith enters the picture. What's going on at this very moment? What does she do?
[06:06]
Silvina Cerrone
Judith first is described as a person that has dedicated her life to prayer and to fasting. And she's described as a very beautiful young woman. I mean, some think that she was probably around 18, as young as 18, just because, you know, she was a widow. She was married for only three or four years and then she was a widow. So, you know, the customs of the Jewish people were to marry really young. And she comes to the. To the leader of the people, having heard about this idea of surrendering in five days if God didn't rescue them. And she's really showing here the true spirit of Israel, which is, we don't put God to the test. We trust him if he wants to free us, if he wants to perform miracles, he will. But we don't put a deadline to that. That is not pious. And that is the temptation, of course, to that. The people would have, you know, throughout history, having heard Israel, having heard all the account of the Exodus, for example, they trusted God with freedom if they remain faithful to Him. But this idea of putting a deadline does not agree with her at all. And she's going to tell the king, I mean, the leader of the people, that that is not right.
[07:27]
John J. Miller
So Judith shows up on the scene. She basically says to her, we buck up, people. You've got to trust God with no conditions. And then she promises to perform a great deed. And that's really the second half of the Book of Judas. And before we go into that, Sylvie, I just wanted to step back for a moment and discuss the Book of Judas itself. A lot of biblical scholars think it was written around the year 100 B.C. and as you say, many of them say it's not a true historical account of actual events. You might want to read it more like a novel, a work of historical fiction, that sort of thing, but one that has lessons. But what is the canonical status of the Book of Judith? Because it's in some Bibles, but it's not in other Bibles.
[08:15]
Silvina Cerrone
The book is in the canon of the Catholic Church. It's also in the canon of the most orthodox churches. I would say, I don't know if there's any exception there. It has been in the, in the canon for a long, long time. I mean, there's, there's reference to that book in Clement Alexandria, for example. It's very, very Old Fathers of the Church. So it was not in the, in the Hebrew Bible. So that is, that accounts for why some protest Protestant Bibles would not have it included. There is the belief also that the original story was written in Hebrew but would have survived and have come to us, is written in Greek. So that accounts for why it's not, you know, included in the Protestant Bibles.
[08:57]
John J. Miller
And then, of course, there's the setting of Bethulia, which is a city, but it's not in the historical record. Outside of the Book of Judith, its location is unknown, although it's described. And some people have theories about where it may in fact be in the. And the time is uncertain. Nebuchadnezzar, for example, familiar name for people who have read the Bible before. In this story, he's the king of Assyria, but that's also ahistorical because his name is Babylonian, for instance. So as you say, maybe he's just meant to represent a great powerful force outside of Israel that means to harm it.
[09:35]
Silvina Cerrone
It's interesting to note that the names used in this book are meant to symbolize something. For example, the name of the Thulia translation, the etymology of it is it means the virgin of Yahweh. So it's a reference to Judas, it's a reference to Israel. And even the name of Judith. The name of Judith means a Jewish woman. So that is not a common name in a Jewish tradition before here. So it almost looks like it's. Without being an allegory. It sounds like, you know, the names represent those details. And then the name of Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuchadnezzar, he represents for the Jewish people at all times the enemy, the king, the power, the tyranny that is going to come. They're very highly symbolic.
[10:26]
John J. Miller
So now Judith is going to stand up against this force arrayed against the Israeli people. And she comes on the scene halfway through the book. She's, as you say, beautiful, she's devout, she's wise, she's wealthy. She's also a widow who's usually a figure, a weak and vulnerable character. In a lot of biblical stories, she tells the Judeans to trust God in their time of trouble, and she promises action and goes on a secret mission.
[10:55]
Silvina Cerrone
What happens here is this plan of Judah's innis and it really, really shows her complete devotion and disposition to be an instrument in God's hands. She goes to the enemy and in all outer appearances it might look like she's betraying her people. And that's what she leads the enemy to believe, that she wants to be with them and she doesn't want to perish. So she's going to tell them how to conquer Israel without having to fight, without losing any of their soldiers lives. And the premise is very interesting because the premise of the whole book and of the Israel and of Israel. So it's like, and what she's saying is in at the core, true, if Israel is faithful, is not going to fall. But she tells the enemy they are not going to be faithful and they are going to fall because God is going to deliver these people to the enemy just because of their not being faithful to him. So with that, she goes to the enemy camp and promises that she will let Holofernes know when he can attack because the, you know, the victory will be certain for him.
[12:11]
John J. Miller
So she infiltrates the enemy camp and presents herself as someone who has information that can help Holofernes and his army conquer the city. How does she ingratiate herself? She's this widow. Does she just walk up to the enemy camp and say, take me to your leader?
[12:28]
Silvina Cerrone
Pretty much in the description. It, it, you know, shows how she uses all her luxury and her, her he put her best image forward. But yes, and, and that's basically it.
[12:43]
John J. Miller
She's so beautiful that yes, the troops who initially encounter her are enamored with her and they're like, okay, we'll take you to our leader. And then she almost seduces Holofernes. What happens in the tent of Holofernus?
[12:58]
Silvina Cerrone
Well, it's very interesting because when Judith's beauty is described, there's an element to it that is not just the beauty, you know, presented to the senses in a sensual way. She's obviously beautiful, but there's some element of racing her beauty that disarm people. It's not just because I'm sure, you know, these people, these men have seen beautiful women before, but there's something to her demeanor, to all of her that radiates some sort of beauty that disarms everybody.
[13:31]
John J. Miller
She also maintains Jewish rules and customs while she is with the enemy. Right, she, she keeps kosher, for instance.
[13:39]
Silvina Cerrone
Yes, it's very interesting. And not only that, I mean, she, she has brought her own food because, you know, she wants to keep the purity laws, you know, the food Rules that they have, but also that she has this excuse, in a sense, to go out of the camp every night because she's going to bathe like that. She's cleaning the ritual impurity of having to be with the enemy in their dwelling place. So she does that too. So she keeps all the. All her bias rules. And those rules are even a vehicle by which then eventually she can take the head of all furnace out of the camp without anybody knowing, because she has been doing this going out at night.
[14:23]
John J. Miller
Okay, you mentioned the head of Holo Furnace. So we gotta. We gotta talk about what happens.
[14:27]
Silvina Cerrone
Sorry.
[14:28]
John J. Miller
Yeah, we have to talk about what happens. The head of Holo furnace. So Holo Furnace decides to hold a banquet for Judas, invites him. She gets him drunk. Everybody else leaves is just the two of them. What does Judith do?
[14:42]
Silvina Cerrone
Well, you know, the role of alcohol cannot be put. You know, it's very important here because he. I think it's symbolizing all these passions that are right in this one. Obviously, you know, he's very keen to her and he's just, you know, envisioning conquering her too. Not just the people, but he gets so drunk that he literally passed out. So that is when Judith is. It's, in a sense, even though she has her plan, she's also waiting for the opportunity. She's so trust convinced that God will give delivery this enemy to her that she is, you know, waiting. I don't know if she had counted exactly on how much, you know, wine this man needs to get drunk and pass out. So in a sense, she's just waiting in trust that the moment will come. And when it comes, she just sees it literally. Like, I mean, when it is described that she holds his. His hair and with his sword, his own sword, which is very important too, because it's really humiliating in a sense. He just cuts his head off.
[15:51]
John J. Miller
So she beheads him, and then she sticks the head in a food bag and leaves. She goes back to Bethulia with the head where she. To wrap up the story, then rallies Israelis who run off the Assyrians. And she has defended her people.
[16:06]
Silvina Cerrone
It all ends with a very big, you know, celebration. And there's a canticle also celebrating her, which it ties out a little bit with the idea that the actual. The book of Judith is not only a representation of Israel, but also, in later times, it comes to be a representation of the Virgin Mary. If you read the article at the end that is celebrating Judith, there's a lot of echoes of the magnificent in it or the ideas of it, like the defeat of the enemy by the hand of a woman. The defeat of the enemy by the. By a woman being so docile to God that she will become an instrument of that defeat. So there's elements there that are going to be taken up later as a symbol of how the weak, the very, very weak, the discarded almost. Because, you know, being a widow, as you mentioned in Israel, you were really, really at the bottom of, of the strength pyramid, in a sense.
[17:14]
John J. Miller
It definitely has a strong girl power vibe. And there are other themes, of course, including courage versus tyranny, ultimately the idea of trusting God. It brings to mind a few other biblical stories about underdog heroes. I'm thinking of David and Goliath, which of course has its own beheading. It also has a connection to John the Baptist, whose story ends with a beheading.
[17:38]
Silvina Cerrone
Yes, yes. And I, I mean, I, I was trying to think about that symbolism of, of the beheading because there's something there, obviously, apart from a way of killing somebody, but it could have been a, you know, a sword to the heart, but it's not. It's a beheading. Writing all these stories, it almost looks like the giants, like the big, you know, powerful people that can be defined as giants too. Like in the story of David, there's something about how they are gathering power to control, to assert this complete control, this system that is not going to allow even the worshiping of God and how the destruction of this. You cut the head off of this movement, in a sense, and you cut the whole thing out. It's even interested in the book of Jude is how, yes, Holo furnace is killed, but then the whole power disintegrates. It's very telling, right? Because you might think some second in command could have taken the city. Why not? There's something there about disarming this giant, disarming the big people, disarming these powers just by eliminating the principle that is commanding them.
[18:53]
John J. Miller
This story has fascinated people for a long time and has given birth to an artistic tradition in painting. A sculpture of, depicting this scene, the beheading of Holofernus by Judith, the scene of incredible violence. We've seen many artists do their own versions of it in sculpture, in painting. Why do you think this incident, this particular episode in the Bible, why do you think this has inspired so many artists for so long?
[19:24]
Silvina Cerrone
Well, you know, it's a very interesting story in general because it's an inversion of a lot of things. There's not many women, you know, in popular stories. But so that element is like the element of surprise, in a sense. I think also it has to do with the times. Right. We see depictions of it as a representation of the Church many times through history, but in general before, you know, before the Counter Reformation times, you will see it, but it will be like, you know, a much more. Less violent representation in a sense. Like, if we think of Donatello's sculpture, for example, a lot of the representation had to do with showing it after the fact. Either Judith with the head already in a basket, the head already, you know, in her hands, but not the actual act of the beheading. Michelangelo also painted in the Sistine Chapel. You can see her, you know, carrying the head in a basket. And, well, the Miguel, you know, his. His depiction has the body of. Of Holofernes not very placidly on the bed, even though his head is already separated from him. But it looks like the agony or something is. It's very interesting, but there's some element in it that is really very, very compelling for the people of. Especially in the. In the later times, like in the. In the 14 and 1500s. I am assuming it has to do with the historical moments. Right. Of the times. I know also that around this time, like in the 1500s, there's a. You. You can see in different places in Europe the birth of the theater, or, you know, it's coming. The popular theater is coming to. And there's even plays about this particular story. So it shows that the. The interest was not just from the top down, but also from the people.
[21:23]
John J. Miller
The sculpture by donatello from the 1450s, roughly today, you can see in Florence, the Sistine Chapel, the parts by Michelangelo, including the depiction from the book of Judith. That's 1509. You can still see that in Rome in the Sistine Chapel. Then let's go to Caravaggio. Let's jump almost 100 years to about 1599. Caravaggio, this great Italian painter, he does what may be the most famous version of Judith in a whole of Hernice. And it's super violent.
[21:56]
Silvina Cerrone
Yes, it's like very, very striking. You can unsee Caravaggio's painting because it's very, very striking. Interestingly enough, you know, Caravaggio has this fame of being a very violent man. As a matter of fact, he was in his life many times. Not just once, but the last one was the worst, but evolving in very violent acts and even murder at the end. But we shouldn't have this idea that it was just his personality. The times were Pretty violent too. Europe was in a very bad time. We have the wars of religion. We have, you know, this shifting of power. So in his painting, yes, it is very violent, obviously, but he. There's a very interesting story about both Caravaggio and Artemisia Gentileschi, which is also a painter from the times. Caravaggio actually was very good friends with the father of Artemisia. And that's where she also learned a lot from Caravaggio. His influence is very strong in her. But there's a story of a family in Rome, when Caravaggio was living in Rome, that have captured the imagination of all the Romans. At the time, it was a very prominent family and there has been violence in the family and the daughter has colluded with the mom and the brother to murder their father. So the trial was very sensationalist in a sense as it could be in that time. And there was a public execution. And the masters of the time, of the painting, in the time, I think. I think it actually was Leonardo da Vinci had recommended all the painters of the city to go and see the public execution so that they can learn how to represent somebody dying, which to us would be very strange. But that's. That they, you know, to them, that was the opportunity to see these things. So when you see the painting of the Beheading of Holofernes, you can see that he has seen that before. This is not something that comes just from the imagination. So I just thought that put in context a little bit of why there's so much violence there.
[24:17]
John J. Miller
The painting by Caravaggio is on display in a museum in Rome. The one by Gentileschi is on display at the Uffizi in Rome. There's also a version at the Detroit Institute of Arts here in the United States. There's one more version of this painting or a painting in this tradition I wanted to ask you about. It's by Gustav Klimt from 1901. You can see it in Vienna. It's unusual.
[24:42]
Silvina Cerrone
Well, it's interesting because the whole figure of Judith had changed with the times too. You know, it happens with very, very big stories that capture the imagination of people through the ages. We tend to not only take that story, but put our own imprint on it. So eventually the story of Judith starts morphing, in a sense, to be joined. And you mentioned before John the Baptist. So if we think about the story of John the Baptist and Salome, there's an inversion there of the story of Judas, because in a sense, even though the elements are there, you know, the one losing the head is not really the one that has been seduced. There's an element there of using beauty, but as a tool, but with the wrong intent. Like in the case of Judith, her beauty is also an instrument of conquest, of victory, but because she's aligned with God's plan, you know, it conquers the enemy. Now, in the case of John the Baptist, he ends up being the victim of beauty, being used as a tool against the people of God. Somehow these two contradicting stories are not, you know, or opposite stories get merged into one in the 20th century and the 19th century probably, too. And there's a transformation of the image of Judith, or joining together of Judaism. Salome, in a sense. So in Green's work, you can see there's a. There's an element of the femme fatale in his. In his painting, because this woman is victorious. She's very happy and she's very sensuous. And you can see her, you know, very. There's nudity also in the. In the painting. So there's a different vibe all together from. From Judith, from the biblical shoes, in a sense. And as a matter of fact, I think there's the theory that this lady was well known by Clint. I think it was one of her lovers or mistresses or whatever, and that the head is his, which is a trope that has happened in the Renaissance painting, too, of painters putting their own heads in the representation of people that have been killed. In this case, we can see this changing in the perception of the image of Judith.
[27:15]
John J. Miller
You mentioned the importance of visual art in the Catholic revival or Counter reformation of the 16th century and beyond. What, in general, is the role of beauty in faith?
[27:30]
Silvina Cerrone
Well, beauty is something that beckons to people. Beauty disarms in a sense, just like in the story of Judith. Beauty can present to us truth and goodness. It can shine the elements of truth and goodness in a way that is different from, let's say, philosophy or from just morality. So these three elements work together to illuminate, you know, the path of faith. So the Catholic Church has always used art, or especially the visual arts, to teach, but also to shine a light, to evangelize, but also to attract. It's not just about convincing somebody of. Of a certain, you know, group of statements, or. It's not about only, you know, this is the moral code. And if you're a Christian, you follow this moral code. It's about the encounter with Christ. And this encounter have those three elements of beauty, of truth and of goodness.
[28:37]
John J. Miller
Silvina. You lead the Art for Evangelists community for the Word on Fire Institute. What is the Art for Evangelist community and how can our listeners learn more about it?
[28:50]
Silvina Cerrone
Well, you know, all the members of the the Word on Fire Institute have access to this space online and we have gathered different communities in it. Our Art for Evangelist communities focuses on art. It welcomes not only artists, which we have a lot of, but also anybody that loves art, anybody that thinks that leading with beauty is something that they are called to do in their homes, in their parishes, in their communities. Sometimes it's very hard to reach people nowadays because with only statements or with only immoral code, but a lot of people feel threatened by that. But beauty has way of disarming in our community we are trying to find ways. We're discussing all these fascinating topics about artists in the past, but also artists nowadays and how we can all contribute to this expansion of beauty and this expansion of the truth just by utilizing art for it.
[29:51]
John J. Miller
One final question. As we look at the artistic tradition that surrounds Judas Beheading Holo Furnace as we look at these great works of art, but also as we read the Book of Judas, is there a special message for us today in the 2020s? Does Judas say something to us right now?
[30:10]
Silvina Cerrone
I think so. I think many, many, many times, especially after 2020, we have felt as modern people this need to stop and think that we are part of a story. We are not just alone facing these enormous systems of control that are trying to override our lives and our beliefs. We all need to understand that we are in a story. We are part of a story. And we have to think which role we have in that story. And I think Judith is to me at least a representation of if you are united, if you're paying attention to God and to the right and to the fact that that story has already an ending and that we already know about the victory of that ending, then we don't panic. We don't just try to give up. We don't just try to say, well, if in five days this doesn't get solved, I just surrender. So I think that is very poignant for us today too.
[31:18]
John J. Miller
Silvina Cerrone, thanks so much for joining us and telling us all about the Book of Judith.
[31:23]
Silvina Cerrone
Well, thank you so much. It's been very, very interesting.
[31:26]
John J. Miller
You just listened to the Great Books Podcast, a production of National Review. Please subscribe to the Great Books Podcast and leave reviews of the show that helps us keep this podcast going. Send me your ideas for future episodes. You can reach me through my website@heymiller.com on Twitter, my handle is at hey, Miller. And last of all, special thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back next week, the new episode of the Great Books podcast.

Summary6 min read

The Great Books Podcast: Episode 355 - The Book of Judith

Host: John J. Miller
Guest: Silvina Cerrone, Artist and Translator, Leader of the Art for Evangelist Community at the Word on Fire Institute
Release Date: January 14, 2025

Introduction to the Book of Judith

Timestamp: 00:00 - 01:13

John J. Miller opens the episode by introducing the focus on the Book of Judith, a fascinating entry within the Western literary canon. Silvina Cerrone joins via Zoom from Hillsdale College's WRFH radio station, bringing her expertise as an artist and translator. The Book of Judith is lauded for its compelling narrative that delves into timeless themes such as the conflict between good and evil, providence, trust, and the juxtaposition of a virtuous life against a godless existence.

Silvina Cerrone:
"It involves themes of the conflict between good and evil powers trying to overcome a very small group of people... trust, the themes of a virtuous, pious life as opposed to a very godless life."
(00:38)

Historical and Symbolic Context

Timestamp: 01:13 - 10:25

Miller delves into the structure and setting of the Book of Judith, noting that Judith, the protagonist, only appears halfway through the 16-chapter book. The initial chapters set the stage with King Nebuchadnezzar and his general, Holofernes, embodying an amalgamation of evil forces rather than historical figures.

Silvina Cerrone:
"The king here is a representation of all evil villains together... an almost representation of evil trying to assert complete control and replace God."
(02:03)

The setting, primarily the city of Bethulia, remains indeterminate in historical records, symbolizing Israel's vulnerability against an overwhelming evil. The narrative emphasizes that despite the formidable forces against them, the power of God will ultimately prevail.

Silvina Cerrone:
"The place names are anachronistic... setting the stage of this world domination... showing how the power of God is going to be so much more manifested."
(04:08)

Judith’s Intervention and Character Analysis

Timestamp: 10:25 - 17:13

Judith emerges as a beacon of faith and courage. Described as a young, beautiful widow dedicated to prayer and fasting, she opposes the idea of surrendering Bethulia to Holofernes. Her refusal to set a deadline for divine intervention showcases her unwavering trust in God.

Silvina Cerrone:
"Judith first is described as a person that has dedicated her life to prayer and to fasting... she shows the true spirit of Israel, which is, we don't put God to the test. We trust him if he wants to free us."
(06:06)

Judith’s plan involves infiltrating the enemy camp by presenting herself as someone who can aid Holofernes in conquering Bethulia. Her beauty and demeanor disarm the enemy, allowing her to gain Holofernes's trust without compromising her Jewish customs.

Silvina Cerrone:
"Judith uses all her luxury and puts her best image forward... she keeps all her bias rules, which allows her to take Holofernes's head without anyone knowing."
(12:28)

The Beheading of Holofernes

Timestamp: 14:26 - 18:52

The climax of the Book of Judith centers around the dramatic beheading of Holofernes. Judith orchestrates a banquet, gets Holofernes drunk, and decapitates him while he is incapacitated. This act of bravery not only saves Bethulia but also symbolizes the downfall of a tyrannical power.

Silvina Cerrone:
"When Judith holds his hair and uses his own sword to behead him, it's very humiliating... it disarms the giant by eliminating the principal command."
(15:50)

Miller draws parallels between Judith’s act and other biblical stories like David and Goliath and the beheading of John the Baptist, highlighting themes of underdog heroes overcoming oppressive forces through divine favor.

Artistic Representations and Symbolism

Timestamp: 18:52 - 27:14

The episode explores how the story of Judith has inspired numerous artists across centuries. From Donatello’s sculptures to Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel paintings and Caravaggio’s intense depictions, the beheading of Holofernes has been a compelling subject due to its dramatic and symbolic depth.

Silvina Cerrone:
"It's an inversion of many things... Judith's beauty disarms, intertwined with her divine mission, making it a compelling subject for artists."
(19:24)

The discussion touches on Gustav Klimt’s 1901 rendition, which merges the Judith narrative with other symbolic elements, reflecting the evolving perception of Judith through different historical contexts.

Silvina Cerrone:
"The story of Judith starts morphing to align with contemporary symbols, like merging with Salome’s narrative to highlight different facets of female agency and power."
(24:41)

The Role of Beauty in Faith and Art

Timestamp: 27:14 - 28:36

Delving into the broader theme of beauty in faith, Cerrone explains how the Catholic Church has historically utilized art to convey truth and goodness, facilitating an encounter with the divine.

Silvina Cerrone:
"Beauty disarms and presents truth and goodness in a way that illuminates the path of faith... the encounter with Christ involves beauty, truth, and goodness."
(27:30)

Art for Evangelist Community and Modern Relevance

Timestamp: 28:36 - 31:18

Silvina introduces the Art for Evangelist community, a space within the Word on Fire Institute dedicated to artists and art enthusiasts who utilize beauty to evangelize and communicate faith. This community fosters discussions on both historical and contemporary art, emphasizing the transformative power of beauty in modern evangelism.

Silvina Cerrone:
"We are trying to find ways to expand beauty and truth by utilizing art, disarming people who feel threatened by moral codes through the allure of beauty."
(28:49)

In reflecting on the Book of Judith’s relevance today, Cerrone emphasizes the importance of understanding one's role within a larger narrative, encouraging listeners to maintain faith and unity in the face of overwhelming challenges.

Silvina Cerrone:
"If you are united and paying attention to God, knowing that the story has an ending where good triumphs, then we don't panic or give up."
(30:09)

Conclusion

Timestamp: 31:18 - End

John J. Miller wraps up the discussion, thanking Silvina Cerrone for her insightful exploration of the Book of Judith. The episode underscores the enduring legacy of Judith’s story in literature and art, highlighting its powerful messages of faith, courage, and the triumph of good over evil.

Key Takeaways

Symbolism and Representation: The Book of Judith uses symbolic characters and settings to represent universal themes of good versus evil, divine providence, and moral integrity.
Judith’s Heroism: As a devout and courageous woman, Judith embodies the strength found in faith and strategic wisdom, challenging traditional gender roles within biblical narratives.
Artistic Legacy: The story of Judith has inspired a rich artistic tradition, with each era imprinting its own cultural and symbolic interpretations onto the narrative.
Beauty in Faith: Beauty is portrayed as a divine tool that can convey truth and goodness, playing a crucial role in evangelism and the expression of faith.
Modern Relevance: The themes of unity, faith, and courage in the face of adversity remain pertinent, encouraging individuals to see themselves as part of a larger, purposeful story.

Notable Quotes

Silvina Cerrone:
"Judith shows the true spirit of Israel, which is, we don't put God to the test. We trust him if he wants to free us."
(06:06)
Silvina Cerrone:
"Beauty disarms and presents truth and goodness in a way that illuminates the path of faith."
(27:30)
Silvina Cerrone:
"If you are united and paying attention to God... then we don't panic or give up."
(30:09)

Further Information

Art for Evangelist Community:
To learn more about the Art for Evangelist community and engage with discussions on art and faith, visit the Word on Fire Institute's online platform.
Connect with John J. Miller:
For ideas on future episodes or to share your thoughts, visit heymiller.com or follow him on Twitter @heymiller.

Subscribe to The Great Books Podcast and leave a review to support the show. Join us next week for another deep dive into a classic work that has shaped Western thought and culture.

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Transcript46 lines

[00:00]
Silvina Cerrone
Foreign.
[00:07]
John J. Miller
Welcome to the Great Books Podcast. Today we'll talk about the Book of Judith. I'm your host, John J. Miller of National Review, and you're listening to a production of National Review. Our guest is Silvina Cerrone, an artist and translator who leads the Art for Evangelist community for the Word on Fire Institute. She joins us by Zoom as we record from Hillsdale College's campus radio station, WRFH in Michigan. Sylvina, welcome to the Great Books Podcast.
[00:33]
Silvina Cerrone
Thank you so much, Sean. Thank you so much.
[00:35]
John J. Miller
Why is the Book of Judas a great book?
[00:39]
Silvina Cerrone
First of all, it has this element of being a very fascinating story applied to all times, which is the definition, and it's very well written. It it involves, you know, themes of the conflict between good and evil powers trying to overcome, you know, a very, very small group of people. We have the themes of providence, the themes of trust, the themes of, you know, a virtuous, pious life as opposed to a very godless life. There's a lot of elements in it that make it really, really, really interesting to read.
[01:14]
John J. Miller
We're going to talk about all of that. The biblical story of beheading at the heart of the Book of Judith. Also, this characters, the story where it fits into the Bible, this particular book and the artistic tradition that it launched with artists like Michelangelo and Caravaggio and more. Let's start, though, with the fact that this book has 16 chapters and Judith doesn't show up, the title character doesn't show up until halfway through at the start of chapter eight. The first seven chapters of the Book of Judas describe King Nebuchadnezzar and his general Holofernes and their war on Israel. Silvina, who are these guys and why are they going to war against Israel?
[02:03]
Silvina Cerrone
It's interesting, you know, that even though we have the names of this king and the name of the general, there's a consensus that, you know, this is not really a historical book in the sense that it's not a real historical event as we would think of a historical event in the past. You know, when people told their stories, they tend to do this amalgamation of different characters. So the king here is a representation in a sense of all. It's like a super league of evil villains all together in one. So the way it's described at the very beginning and as you said up to almost the middle of the book, is trying to emphasize the fact that this king is joining together all the power of the known world of the earth right against everybody. So it's almost a representation of evil, you know, trying to assert complete control and replace God. It's very clear from the very beginning of the book and we see all the characters being shown that what the king wants to do is become God in that sense. That's what, you know, the big threat here. And it's very, very put together, you know, in the succession of explanations of places, which by the way, they're not, you know, most historians would say that they're anachronistic, right? The names of the places, they don't even know where they are. But it's setting the stage of this world domination that is coming and setting against that stage these people that are not even well known to them. Like when Holofernes has to come and conquer them, he has to ask a neighbor to see who they are. So it's very clear in the setting of the story that they are of no consequence to anybody. And that is part of the setup of the book to just show how the power of God is going to be so much more manifested because of this enormous power of evil against these little people that are not even known.
[04:09]
John J. Miller
The main setting then is the city of Bethulia, which as you say, is an indeterminate place. We don't know where to find this on the map, although it's named in the book of Judas and there are some theories about where it might be and so forth. But in the story it's the city of Bethulia. It's a gateway to Judea. You need to get to Judea by going through Bethulia. It's in the mountains, it's well defended. And so when the king sends his general Holofernes, he's got to get through Bethulia, he decides not to attack. He decides to cut off its water supply and go into a siege.
[04:49]
Silvina Cerrone
Exactly. Yes. And some interpretations suggest that that is almost to show the cruelty of Holofernes, because as the armies describe as such a powerful force, you know, like it looks like it's this well oiled machine that is going to take over everybody. Everybody's falling, you know, even big names are falling against this army. So it's almost like, let's see, I'm going to make them suffer before they get conquered. There's no doubt in their mind that they're going to be conquered. Holofernes is not even concerned. But the whole siege had to do also with to make people suffer. Siege were the sieges were a horrible thing, right? People starve to death, you know, I'm here. He's even cutting the Water supply which going to be a little faster too. But that's the idea, right? That to show also that the enemy is completely godless and cruel.
[05:43]
John J. Miller
So the people of Bethulia lose their water supply and they cry out for peace. They go to their leader Uzziah, and he promises to surrender the city if God doesn't rescue them in five days. At this point, Judith enters the picture. What's going on at this very moment? What does she do?
[06:06]
Silvina Cerrone
Judith first is described as a person that has dedicated her life to prayer and to fasting. And she's described as a very beautiful young woman. I mean, some think that she was probably around 18, as young as 18, just because, you know, she was a widow. She was married for only three or four years and then she was a widow. So, you know, the customs of the Jewish people were to marry really young. And she comes to the. To the leader of the people, having heard about this idea of surrendering in five days if God didn't rescue them. And she's really showing here the true spirit of Israel, which is, we don't put God to the test. We trust him if he wants to free us, if he wants to perform miracles, he will. But we don't put a deadline to that. That is not pious. And that is the temptation, of course, to that. The people would have, you know, throughout history, having heard Israel, having heard all the account of the Exodus, for example, they trusted God with freedom if they remain faithful to Him. But this idea of putting a deadline does not agree with her at all. And she's going to tell the king, I mean, the leader of the people, that that is not right.
[07:27]
John J. Miller
So Judith shows up on the scene. She basically says to her, we buck up, people. You've got to trust God with no conditions. And then she promises to perform a great deed. And that's really the second half of the Book of Judas. And before we go into that, Sylvie, I just wanted to step back for a moment and discuss the Book of Judas itself. A lot of biblical scholars think it was written around the year 100 B.C. and as you say, many of them say it's not a true historical account of actual events. You might want to read it more like a novel, a work of historical fiction, that sort of thing, but one that has lessons. But what is the canonical status of the Book of Judith? Because it's in some Bibles, but it's not in other Bibles.
[08:15]
Silvina Cerrone
The book is in the canon of the Catholic Church. It's also in the canon of the most orthodox churches. I would say, I don't know if there's any exception there. It has been in the, in the canon for a long, long time. I mean, there's, there's reference to that book in Clement Alexandria, for example. It's very, very Old Fathers of the Church. So it was not in the, in the Hebrew Bible. So that is, that accounts for why some protest Protestant Bibles would not have it included. There is the belief also that the original story was written in Hebrew but would have survived and have come to us, is written in Greek. So that accounts for why it's not, you know, included in the Protestant Bibles.
[08:57]
John J. Miller
And then, of course, there's the setting of Bethulia, which is a city, but it's not in the historical record. Outside of the Book of Judith, its location is unknown, although it's described. And some people have theories about where it may in fact be in the. And the time is uncertain. Nebuchadnezzar, for example, familiar name for people who have read the Bible before. In this story, he's the king of Assyria, but that's also ahistorical because his name is Babylonian, for instance. So as you say, maybe he's just meant to represent a great powerful force outside of Israel that means to harm it.
[09:35]
Silvina Cerrone
It's interesting to note that the names used in this book are meant to symbolize something. For example, the name of the Thulia translation, the etymology of it is it means the virgin of Yahweh. So it's a reference to Judas, it's a reference to Israel. And even the name of Judith. The name of Judith means a Jewish woman. So that is not a common name in a Jewish tradition before here. So it almost looks like it's. Without being an allegory. It sounds like, you know, the names represent those details. And then the name of Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuchadnezzar, he represents for the Jewish people at all times the enemy, the king, the power, the tyranny that is going to come. They're very highly symbolic.
[10:26]
John J. Miller
So now Judith is going to stand up against this force arrayed against the Israeli people. And she comes on the scene halfway through the book. She's, as you say, beautiful, she's devout, she's wise, she's wealthy. She's also a widow who's usually a figure, a weak and vulnerable character. In a lot of biblical stories, she tells the Judeans to trust God in their time of trouble, and she promises action and goes on a secret mission.
[10:55]
Silvina Cerrone
What happens here is this plan of Judah's innis and it really, really shows her complete devotion and disposition to be an instrument in God's hands. She goes to the enemy and in all outer appearances it might look like she's betraying her people. And that's what she leads the enemy to believe, that she wants to be with them and she doesn't want to perish. So she's going to tell them how to conquer Israel without having to fight, without losing any of their soldiers lives. And the premise is very interesting because the premise of the whole book and of the Israel and of Israel. So it's like, and what she's saying is in at the core, true, if Israel is faithful, is not going to fall. But she tells the enemy they are not going to be faithful and they are going to fall because God is going to deliver these people to the enemy just because of their not being faithful to him. So with that, she goes to the enemy camp and promises that she will let Holofernes know when he can attack because the, you know, the victory will be certain for him.
[12:11]
John J. Miller
So she infiltrates the enemy camp and presents herself as someone who has information that can help Holofernes and his army conquer the city. How does she ingratiate herself? She's this widow. Does she just walk up to the enemy camp and say, take me to your leader?
[12:28]
Silvina Cerrone
Pretty much in the description. It, it, you know, shows how she uses all her luxury and her, her he put her best image forward. But yes, and, and that's basically it.
[12:43]
John J. Miller
She's so beautiful that yes, the troops who initially encounter her are enamored with her and they're like, okay, we'll take you to our leader. And then she almost seduces Holofernes. What happens in the tent of Holofernus?
[12:58]
Silvina Cerrone
Well, it's very interesting because when Judith's beauty is described, there's an element to it that is not just the beauty, you know, presented to the senses in a sensual way. She's obviously beautiful, but there's some element of racing her beauty that disarm people. It's not just because I'm sure, you know, these people, these men have seen beautiful women before, but there's something to her demeanor, to all of her that radiates some sort of beauty that disarms everybody.
[13:31]
John J. Miller
She also maintains Jewish rules and customs while she is with the enemy. Right, she, she keeps kosher, for instance.
[13:39]
Silvina Cerrone
Yes, it's very interesting. And not only that, I mean, she, she has brought her own food because, you know, she wants to keep the purity laws, you know, the food Rules that they have, but also that she has this excuse, in a sense, to go out of the camp every night because she's going to bathe like that. She's cleaning the ritual impurity of having to be with the enemy in their dwelling place. So she does that too. So she keeps all the. All her bias rules. And those rules are even a vehicle by which then eventually she can take the head of all furnace out of the camp without anybody knowing, because she has been doing this going out at night.
[14:23]
John J. Miller
Okay, you mentioned the head of Holo Furnace. So we gotta. We gotta talk about what happens.
[14:27]
Silvina Cerrone
Sorry.
[14:28]
John J. Miller
Yeah, we have to talk about what happens. The head of Holo furnace. So Holo Furnace decides to hold a banquet for Judas, invites him. She gets him drunk. Everybody else leaves is just the two of them. What does Judith do?
[14:42]
Silvina Cerrone
Well, you know, the role of alcohol cannot be put. You know, it's very important here because he. I think it's symbolizing all these passions that are right in this one. Obviously, you know, he's very keen to her and he's just, you know, envisioning conquering her too. Not just the people, but he gets so drunk that he literally passed out. So that is when Judith is. It's, in a sense, even though she has her plan, she's also waiting for the opportunity. She's so trust convinced that God will give delivery this enemy to her that she is, you know, waiting. I don't know if she had counted exactly on how much, you know, wine this man needs to get drunk and pass out. So in a sense, she's just waiting in trust that the moment will come. And when it comes, she just sees it literally. Like, I mean, when it is described that she holds his. His hair and with his sword, his own sword, which is very important too, because it's really humiliating in a sense. He just cuts his head off.
[15:51]
John J. Miller
So she beheads him, and then she sticks the head in a food bag and leaves. She goes back to Bethulia with the head where she. To wrap up the story, then rallies Israelis who run off the Assyrians. And she has defended her people.
[16:06]
Silvina Cerrone
It all ends with a very big, you know, celebration. And there's a canticle also celebrating her, which it ties out a little bit with the idea that the actual. The book of Judith is not only a representation of Israel, but also, in later times, it comes to be a representation of the Virgin Mary. If you read the article at the end that is celebrating Judith, there's a lot of echoes of the magnificent in it or the ideas of it, like the defeat of the enemy by the hand of a woman. The defeat of the enemy by the. By a woman being so docile to God that she will become an instrument of that defeat. So there's elements there that are going to be taken up later as a symbol of how the weak, the very, very weak, the discarded almost. Because, you know, being a widow, as you mentioned in Israel, you were really, really at the bottom of, of the strength pyramid, in a sense.
[17:14]
John J. Miller
It definitely has a strong girl power vibe. And there are other themes, of course, including courage versus tyranny, ultimately the idea of trusting God. It brings to mind a few other biblical stories about underdog heroes. I'm thinking of David and Goliath, which of course has its own beheading. It also has a connection to John the Baptist, whose story ends with a beheading.
[17:38]
Silvina Cerrone
Yes, yes. And I, I mean, I, I was trying to think about that symbolism of, of the beheading because there's something there, obviously, apart from a way of killing somebody, but it could have been a, you know, a sword to the heart, but it's not. It's a beheading. Writing all these stories, it almost looks like the giants, like the big, you know, powerful people that can be defined as giants too. Like in the story of David, there's something about how they are gathering power to control, to assert this complete control, this system that is not going to allow even the worshiping of God and how the destruction of this. You cut the head off of this movement, in a sense, and you cut the whole thing out. It's even interested in the book of Jude is how, yes, Holo furnace is killed, but then the whole power disintegrates. It's very telling, right? Because you might think some second in command could have taken the city. Why not? There's something there about disarming this giant, disarming the big people, disarming these powers just by eliminating the principle that is commanding them.
[18:53]
John J. Miller
This story has fascinated people for a long time and has given birth to an artistic tradition in painting. A sculpture of, depicting this scene, the beheading of Holofernus by Judith, the scene of incredible violence. We've seen many artists do their own versions of it in sculpture, in painting. Why do you think this incident, this particular episode in the Bible, why do you think this has inspired so many artists for so long?
[19:24]
Silvina Cerrone
Well, you know, it's a very interesting story in general because it's an inversion of a lot of things. There's not many women, you know, in popular stories. But so that element is like the element of surprise, in a sense. I think also it has to do with the times. Right. We see depictions of it as a representation of the Church many times through history, but in general before, you know, before the Counter Reformation times, you will see it, but it will be like, you know, a much more. Less violent representation in a sense. Like, if we think of Donatello's sculpture, for example, a lot of the representation had to do with showing it after the fact. Either Judith with the head already in a basket, the head already, you know, in her hands, but not the actual act of the beheading. Michelangelo also painted in the Sistine Chapel. You can see her, you know, carrying the head in a basket. And, well, the Miguel, you know, his. His depiction has the body of. Of Holofernes not very placidly on the bed, even though his head is already separated from him. But it looks like the agony or something is. It's very interesting, but there's some element in it that is really very, very compelling for the people of. Especially in the. In the later times, like in the. In the 14 and 1500s. I am assuming it has to do with the historical moments. Right. Of the times. I know also that around this time, like in the 1500s, there's a. You. You can see in different places in Europe the birth of the theater, or, you know, it's coming. The popular theater is coming to. And there's even plays about this particular story. So it shows that the. The interest was not just from the top down, but also from the people.
[21:23]
John J. Miller
The sculpture by donatello from the 1450s, roughly today, you can see in Florence, the Sistine Chapel, the parts by Michelangelo, including the depiction from the book of Judith. That's 1509. You can still see that in Rome in the Sistine Chapel. Then let's go to Caravaggio. Let's jump almost 100 years to about 1599. Caravaggio, this great Italian painter, he does what may be the most famous version of Judith in a whole of Hernice. And it's super violent.
[21:56]
Silvina Cerrone
Yes, it's like very, very striking. You can unsee Caravaggio's painting because it's very, very striking. Interestingly enough, you know, Caravaggio has this fame of being a very violent man. As a matter of fact, he was in his life many times. Not just once, but the last one was the worst, but evolving in very violent acts and even murder at the end. But we shouldn't have this idea that it was just his personality. The times were Pretty violent too. Europe was in a very bad time. We have the wars of religion. We have, you know, this shifting of power. So in his painting, yes, it is very violent, obviously, but he. There's a very interesting story about both Caravaggio and Artemisia Gentileschi, which is also a painter from the times. Caravaggio actually was very good friends with the father of Artemisia. And that's where she also learned a lot from Caravaggio. His influence is very strong in her. But there's a story of a family in Rome, when Caravaggio was living in Rome, that have captured the imagination of all the Romans. At the time, it was a very prominent family and there has been violence in the family and the daughter has colluded with the mom and the brother to murder their father. So the trial was very sensationalist in a sense as it could be in that time. And there was a public execution. And the masters of the time, of the painting, in the time, I think. I think it actually was Leonardo da Vinci had recommended all the painters of the city to go and see the public execution so that they can learn how to represent somebody dying, which to us would be very strange. But that's. That they, you know, to them, that was the opportunity to see these things. So when you see the painting of the Beheading of Holofernes, you can see that he has seen that before. This is not something that comes just from the imagination. So I just thought that put in context a little bit of why there's so much violence there.
[24:17]
John J. Miller
The painting by Caravaggio is on display in a museum in Rome. The one by Gentileschi is on display at the Uffizi in Rome. There's also a version at the Detroit Institute of Arts here in the United States. There's one more version of this painting or a painting in this tradition I wanted to ask you about. It's by Gustav Klimt from 1901. You can see it in Vienna. It's unusual.
[24:42]
Silvina Cerrone
Well, it's interesting because the whole figure of Judith had changed with the times too. You know, it happens with very, very big stories that capture the imagination of people through the ages. We tend to not only take that story, but put our own imprint on it. So eventually the story of Judith starts morphing, in a sense, to be joined. And you mentioned before John the Baptist. So if we think about the story of John the Baptist and Salome, there's an inversion there of the story of Judas, because in a sense, even though the elements are there, you know, the one losing the head is not really the one that has been seduced. There's an element there of using beauty, but as a tool, but with the wrong intent. Like in the case of Judith, her beauty is also an instrument of conquest, of victory, but because she's aligned with God's plan, you know, it conquers the enemy. Now, in the case of John the Baptist, he ends up being the victim of beauty, being used as a tool against the people of God. Somehow these two contradicting stories are not, you know, or opposite stories get merged into one in the 20th century and the 19th century probably, too. And there's a transformation of the image of Judith, or joining together of Judaism. Salome, in a sense. So in Green's work, you can see there's a. There's an element of the femme fatale in his. In his painting, because this woman is victorious. She's very happy and she's very sensuous. And you can see her, you know, very. There's nudity also in the. In the painting. So there's a different vibe all together from. From Judith, from the biblical shoes, in a sense. And as a matter of fact, I think there's the theory that this lady was well known by Clint. I think it was one of her lovers or mistresses or whatever, and that the head is his, which is a trope that has happened in the Renaissance painting, too, of painters putting their own heads in the representation of people that have been killed. In this case, we can see this changing in the perception of the image of Judith.
[27:15]
John J. Miller
You mentioned the importance of visual art in the Catholic revival or Counter reformation of the 16th century and beyond. What, in general, is the role of beauty in faith?
[27:30]
Silvina Cerrone
Well, beauty is something that beckons to people. Beauty disarms in a sense, just like in the story of Judith. Beauty can present to us truth and goodness. It can shine the elements of truth and goodness in a way that is different from, let's say, philosophy or from just morality. So these three elements work together to illuminate, you know, the path of faith. So the Catholic Church has always used art, or especially the visual arts, to teach, but also to shine a light, to evangelize, but also to attract. It's not just about convincing somebody of. Of a certain, you know, group of statements, or. It's not about only, you know, this is the moral code. And if you're a Christian, you follow this moral code. It's about the encounter with Christ. And this encounter have those three elements of beauty, of truth and of goodness.
[28:37]
John J. Miller
Silvina. You lead the Art for Evangelists community for the Word on Fire Institute. What is the Art for Evangelist community and how can our listeners learn more about it?
[28:50]
Silvina Cerrone
Well, you know, all the members of the the Word on Fire Institute have access to this space online and we have gathered different communities in it. Our Art for Evangelist communities focuses on art. It welcomes not only artists, which we have a lot of, but also anybody that loves art, anybody that thinks that leading with beauty is something that they are called to do in their homes, in their parishes, in their communities. Sometimes it's very hard to reach people nowadays because with only statements or with only immoral code, but a lot of people feel threatened by that. But beauty has way of disarming in our community we are trying to find ways. We're discussing all these fascinating topics about artists in the past, but also artists nowadays and how we can all contribute to this expansion of beauty and this expansion of the truth just by utilizing art for it.
[29:51]
John J. Miller
One final question. As we look at the artistic tradition that surrounds Judas Beheading Holo Furnace as we look at these great works of art, but also as we read the Book of Judas, is there a special message for us today in the 2020s? Does Judas say something to us right now?
[30:10]
Silvina Cerrone
I think so. I think many, many, many times, especially after 2020, we have felt as modern people this need to stop and think that we are part of a story. We are not just alone facing these enormous systems of control that are trying to override our lives and our beliefs. We all need to understand that we are in a story. We are part of a story. And we have to think which role we have in that story. And I think Judith is to me at least a representation of if you are united, if you're paying attention to God and to the right and to the fact that that story has already an ending and that we already know about the victory of that ending, then we don't panic. We don't just try to give up. We don't just try to say, well, if in five days this doesn't get solved, I just surrender. So I think that is very poignant for us today too.
[31:18]
John J. Miller
Silvina Cerrone, thanks so much for joining us and telling us all about the Book of Judith.
[31:23]
Silvina Cerrone
Well, thank you so much. It's been very, very interesting.
[31:26]
John J. Miller
You just listened to the Great Books Podcast, a production of National Review. Please subscribe to the Great Books Podcast and leave reviews of the show that helps us keep this podcast going. Send me your ideas for future episodes. You can reach me through my website@heymiller.com on Twitter, my handle is at hey, Miller. And last of all, special thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back next week, the new episode of the Great Books podcast.