The Great Books Podcast: Episode 360 - 'Gorgias' by Plato
Host: John J. Miller
Guest: Agnes Callard, Professor of Philosophy at the University of Chicago
Release Date: February 18, 2025
Introduction
In Episode 360 of The Great Books Podcast, hosted by John J. Miller of the National Review, the focus is on Plato's seminal work, Gorgias. Agnes Callard, a distinguished professor of philosophy and author of The Agency of Becoming and Open Socrates: The Case for a Philosophical Life, joins Miller to delve into the depths of this classic dialogue. The discussion explores the nature of rhetoric, morality, and the philosophical life, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of why Gorgias remains a cornerstone of Western literary canon.
Why 'Gorgias' by Plato is a Great Book
Agnes Callard opens the conversation by highlighting the significance of Gorgias in its deconstruction of cynicism. She explains:
“One reason is that it's an attempted deconstruction of cynicism. So Socrates encounters a bunch of different people who express a bunch of different forms of moral nihilism. And he shows you that their positions don't make sense, but they can't be sustained. That if you just ask them to keep explaining themselves, eventually they'll contradict themselves. And so it's a kind of just full throated defense of morality.”
[00:49]
This sets the stage for understanding how Gorgias serves as a robust defense of moral philosophy against emerging nihilistic views.
The Structure and Genre of Socratic Dialogue
Miller poses a fundamental question about the nature of Socratic dialogues:
"What genre of literature are we talking about here? This is a work of philosophy, of course. When you read it, it's like a script almost. Maybe the script to a podcast."
[04:53]
Agnes elucidates that Socratic dialogues are neither strictly fictional nor purely nonfictional. They are crafted to represent the essence of Socratic conversations, capturing the intellectual spirit rather than providing exact transcripts:
“They're not exactly fictional texts, and they're not exactly nonfictional. ... they are meant to represent what it was actually like when Socrates talked to people.”
[04:53]
Character Analysis: Socrates, Gorgias, and Plato
The dialogue introduces Gorgias, a renowned rhetorician from Leontini, who exemplifies the art of persuasion without necessarily grounding it in truth. Callard explains Gorgias’ role:
“He's somebody who was an expert in using persuasive tactics to get you to believe things that you would otherwise not have been willing to believe and teaching other people to do the same.”
[07:22]
Plato, Socrates' student, is discussed not as a character but as the author who immortalizes Socratic dialogues. Callard notes:
“Plato's dialogues ... are just conversation. Socrates in conversation with all different people.”
[08:46]
Key Themes and Discussions
1. Nature of Rhetoric:
The dialogue begins with Socrates questioning Gorgias about rhetoric, probing beyond the superficial understanding of making speeches:
“Socrates asks, what do you know? What do you do for a living? And Gorgias says his expertise is rhetoric, and we should call him a rhetorician.”
[02:46]
2. Socratic vs. Gorgian Persuasion:
A pivotal discussion contrasts Socratic and Gorgian methods of persuasion. Callard emphasizes:
“Gorgias says, look, oratory is really powerful because it's not really important whether you know anything. What's important is whether you can manipulate the minds of people around you.”
[13:34]
In contrast, Socratic persuasion is portrayed as a mutual quest for truth, where success isn't about defeating an opponent but about mutual understanding:
“Socratic persuasion means if you end up persuading me, I've succeeded. That's just as good as me persuading you.”
[12:12]
3. Morality and Humility:
Socrates’ approach ties rhetoric to moral virtue. He advocates for humility in discourse, valuing the pursuit of truth over personal victory:
“What kind of person am I? I'm happy to have a mistaken idea proven wrong and I'm happy to prove someone else's mistaken idea. I'm certainly not less happy if I'm proved wrong than if I proved someone else wrong.”
[16:21]
Callard further explains Socratic humility as recognizing the necessity of others in the quest for truth:
“Thinking about what's good for yourself ... is not something you can do by yourself. You need other people to help you think.”
[17:16]
Modern Relevance of 'Gorgias'
Agnes Callard articulates the enduring relevance of Gorgias in contemporary discourse:
“We're living at a time where people often bring up sort of the difficulty of public discourse and the ways in which it degrades easily into kind of, of politicized name calling.”
[31:41]
She connects the dialogue's exploration of rhetoric and morality to current challenges in public and political conversations, where debates often devolve into zero-sum conflicts rather than collaborative searches for truth.
Insights from 'Open Socrates'
Transitioning to her own work, Callard discusses the concept of Open Socrates:
“It's taken from [Symposium] that Socrates sort of lies open, that the valuable things about Socrates are things that you don't have to read between the lines. There aren't secret messages.”
[24:33]
She argues that Socratic inquiry is inherently open and accessible, promoting philosophical engagement beyond rigid academic confines. Socratic inquiry involves cooperative dialogue where participants aim to uncover truth collaboratively rather than compete for victory.
Philosophical Life and Socratic Inquiry
Miller ties Socratic inquiry to the notion of a philosophical life, as outlined in Callard's book:
“A philosophical life is a life that makes room for that kind of inquiry. ... there's a kind of Socratic dimension to our lives that we could explore to a greater degree than we do.”
[27:16]
This perspective encourages embracing philosophical practices in daily interactions, fostering deeper understanding and mutual growth.
Conclusion
In wrapping up the discussion, Callard underscores the timelessness of Gorgias:
“The Gorgias diagnoses ... our natural and innate tendency to map an inquiry onto a kind of zero sum contest.”
[31:41]
She emphasizes that Plato's work offers profound insights into the nature of rhetoric, morality, and the philosophical life, providing valuable lessons for navigating contemporary discourse and personal growth.
Final Thoughts
John J. Miller thanks Agnes Callard for her insightful analysis of Plato’s Gorgias, encouraging listeners to engage with this classic text to better understand the intricate balance between persuasion, morality, and the pursuit of truth.
Recommended Reading:
Agnes Callard recommends the Hackett translation of Gorgias by Donald Zale, known for its accessibility and fidelity to the original text.
Connect with the Podcast:
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