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Episode 363: 'Charlotte's Web' by E. B. White
00:36:49
John J. Miller is joined by Elizabeth Baird Hardy of Mayland Community College to discuss E. B. White's 'Charlotte's Web.'
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
Foreign.
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John J. Miller
Welcome to the Great Books Podcast. Today we'll talk about Charlotte's Web by E.B. white. I'm your host, John J. Miller of National Review, and you're listening to a production of National Review. This show is sponsored by the Herzog foundation and its online publication, the Lion. I'll tell you more about that in just a few minutes. Our guest is Elizabeth Baird Hardy, who teaches English at Mailand Community College in North Carolina. She's the author of Milton Spencer and the Chronicles of Narnia, literary sources for the C.S. lewis novels, and she's recorded with us previously on C.S. lewis, as well as the poetry of Ann Bradstreet. She joins us by zoom as we record from Hillsdale College's campus radio station, WRFH in Michigan. Elizabeth welcome back to the Great Books Podcast.
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
Thank you so much, John. It is an absolute joy to be back here. It is always just, I'm thrilled. I'm trembling with joy, as Charlotte might say.
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John J. Miller
So salutations, it's great to have you back. Salutations is the perfect way to begin, as we'll find out soon. But tell us, why is Charlotte's Web by E.B. white a great book?
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
Well, it ticks all the boxes for a great book, which sometimes people don't expect that from a quote unquote children's book. But Charlotte's Web is much more than just a children's book. It works on so many different levels. This is a book that children can read and they just enjoy. They just, they want to know if Wilbur's going to make it right. Adults read it and it's a different story. Young adults read it, it's a different story. It's the same story, but it resonates with people in so many different ways. It also stands the test of time. Even though this is a book that is certainly a product of its time, I'm sure people are reading it going, these kids had 70 cents to spend at the fair. What are you talking about? But it certainly has that sort of nostalgic element to it. But it still holds up beautifully all these years later. It continues to be a powerful book, and it also fulfills the requirements set forth by C.S. lewis, whose experiment and criticism I always defer to on matters of great literature. One of the characteristics that he dictates for a great book, a great work of literature, is that it holds up to repeated readings, that when we read it, we find something more if all the only point was to find out, does Wilbur make it? When we get to the end of the book and Wilbur makes it, well, then we'd be all right. We would never have to read it again. But this is a book that we can come back to again and again and again, and it gives us something new and something beautiful every time. And, of course, it also has something pretty amazing. It has, I think, probably one of the greatest opening lines and one of the greatest closing passages in all of literature. Not many books can do that. Charlotte's Web does both.
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John J. Miller
We are going to talk about all of that. The story and its characters, the themes of Charlotte's Web, the very interesting author E.B. white, behind it, and also how it opens and how it closes. Elizabeth, let's start with the opening of Charlotte's web, published in 1952. It does begin with a bang. I'm just gonna read the first couple sentences here. Starts with a quote. One of the characters talking. Where's Papa going with that axe? Said Fern. Character with an interesting name. Fern. Said Fern to her mother as they were setting the table for breakfast. Out to the hog house. House, replied Mrs. Arable, some pigs were born last night, Unquote. Elizabeth, what's going on?
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
And that line is one of the things, I think, that has enchanted readers for over a half a century. This. That line. I mean, what. What is going on here? Interestingly enough, there was a great article several years ago, supposedly by Lemony Snicket. Now, Lemony Snicket, obviously is a character, not an actual person. He is the character in the Series of Unfortunate Events, but there was an article by supposedly Livony Snicket, of the most unsettling lines in children's literature. And I think this one was number one. Maybe. Maybe the only other one would be in Goodnight Moon of Goodnight Noises Everywhere. What's making the noises? But this line, where's Papa going with that ax? Especially if you take it out of context, extremely disturbing. But what's interesting about this line is that not only is it a great attention getter, but it sets us up beautifully for one of the most powerful things about Charlotte's Web. Here we have an ax. You know, we have. And we discover pretty quickly that the reason why we're taking the axe to the hog house is because there is a runt in the pig litter who is going to be dispatched. Of course, that's Wilbur. So we right away have birth and death juxtaposed right up against each other, which is one of the main things that we just see coming back over and over again so beautifully in this book. So even though it's powerful it's not disturbing, as Lemony Snicket might have us think, but it certainly powerful, and it definitely gets our attention.
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John J. Miller
You mentioned Wilbur. We're going to meet him very soon in this book. Papa's going with an ax. Gonna go take care of Wilbur. You said he's a runt. He's the runt of the litter. What's. What's a runt?
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
You know, it's fun. As I was. As I was rereading this book for who knows how many. I have no idea how many times, as I was rereading, I was thinking, you know, I grew up. No, I didn't grow up on a farm, but I have a family with farmers in it, and I certainly had puppies and kittens and that sort of. So. But many people, I'm sure, have never had that experience. The runt of the litter, of course, is the smallest one. Sort of an afterthought for litter bearing animals. And so here's Wilbur, who's little. He's small. He's the smallest one. It's interesting how runts work out. We tend to sort of cheer for the underdogs. And I actually have a cat, I think, who was probably the runt of the litter, bless his heart, certainly would not have made it without a lot of human intervention, simply because of his distinct lack of good critical thinking skills. But we have the runt here, who is the smallest one. And if there's a runt in the litter, as. As Fern's father says, it makes trouble. It's difficult. It's. It's weak. It doesn't do well. And eventually, he thinks he's doing an act of mercy by taking this little creature out of the world before it can have a short, miserable life. That's. That's kind of how things are done on farms, or certainly they would have been done at the time period as well. So, yes, here's Wilbur, the runt. But as we'll see, when enough love is applied, even a runt can be some pig.
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John J. Miller
All right, so Wilbur doesn't get the ax. How is he saved?
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
Fern intervenes. And I love that you pointed out her name, because one of the things I know we'll talk about is the beautiful way in which nature is used in this book. It is just gorgeous. So, of course, she has this fantastic plant name that I like very much. So Fern intervenes and saves Wilbur. But it's not just. She doesn't just run out there and wring her hands and get her father to stop. He handles this really, in an interesting way, he says, all right, fine, you can have the pig, but it's a responsibility. And so he gives her this wonderful responsibility for raising Wilbur. And then when Wilbur gets big enough, then they actually do sell him to her uncle. So it's this really almost like kind of a 4H kind of project that we get here with Wilbur. But it is a good testament to the fact that she is, as she says, ridding the world of injustice. She's out there, and when her brother, Avery, and I love Avery's name because it's the name of my county, but Avery wants a. Well, he wants a pig, too. And he's always got something. He's got a frog in one pocket and a snake in the other and all kinds of great things. He's just a great, great character. But he's complaining that he doesn't have a pig. And that's because as he wasn't up before daylight ridding the world of injustice.
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John J. Miller
As Fearne was, so does Wilbur become a kind of pet to Fearne?
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
He is at first, and he's really sweet. There's these beautiful little descriptions of Fearne dressing him up and putting him in her doll carriage and all these kinds of things, and kind of babying him and feeding him with a bottle, as one does with an animal that is being taken care of in that way. So he's a little bit of a pet, and certainly Fern treats him that way. But it's interesting that he then is moved into the role of being an actual farm animal when he over to her uncle's farm, to Zuckerman's farm.
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John J. Miller
So what does that mean, to be a farm animal? What is Wilbur doing that has him participating in farm life?
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
So he lives in the barn, and that barn is just one of the great settings of all literature. Anybody who's ever spent time in a barn just wishes it was as fantastic as this one. Not just because the animals talk, which is pretty amazing. And certainly Fern enjoys being there, sitting there, listening to the animals talk, but because it has all these fantastic smells and White's descriptions are so evocative, so sensory and beautiful here. Wilbur, of course, has no idea what the true function of a pig on a farm is. He is a quote unquote spring pig. He does not know that the job of a quote unquote spring pig is to be in the smokehouse by wintertime. He doesn't realize that that's what's going to happen to him. And of course, as he does, that's where our plot begins to get interesting with the story, but he has this interesting community around him there in the barn. We have the geese who repeat everything, who are just great. We sheep. We have horses and cows upstairs, and we have. We have a rat. And then we, of course, get to meet Charlotte.
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John J. Miller
Charlotte is our title character. We've been discussing Charlotte's web, and we have not yet gotten to Charlotte. So this is where. This is where we meet. Charlotte is at. In this. In this barn. Who is Charlotte?
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
Charlotte a Cavatica. She is a spider. And it's so wonderful, as we look at this story, to think how incredibly powerful this text is, that we really do care about a spider. There are many of us, I'm sure, who would normally worry that much about spiders or insects, but Charlotte is this common gray barn spider. As a child, we called every spider that was. Especially those big orb weavers. We always call those Charlottes. They aren't gray spiders. They're orange and black. But Charlotte lives up there in the corner of the barn, which makes sense because Wilbur sleeps in a manure pile, so there are insects around the barn. Barns are full of insects. And so she has a web built up there in the corner right above Wilbur's pen. And that is where she first makes contact, where she says salutations and changes.
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John J. Miller
His life, just like you did at the top of the podcast. So. So how does. How does Charlotte come to take over this story and become the title character?
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
This is a story about the power of friendship, certainly, but it's also a story about the power of words. Charlotte doesn't have magic powers, and it's always interesting to think about the way the animals speak. Only Fearne ever hears them speak, and to each other. And by the end of the story, we may wonder if she can still hear them or if, as she's gotten older, she can't hear them anymore. A little like the bell on the Polar Express, perhaps, that as she gets older, she's no longer able to hear them speaking, but they interact with each other. They speak to each other. This is a book about the power of words, about the way that words do something amazing Charlotte doesn't have. Like, she doesn't spread sprinkles around and give Wilbur wings until he flies away. And so he's free to be able to not. Not be of the food chain. Instead, she uses words. She totally changes the paradigm here of what happens to a pig with five words that she weaves into her spider web. That's how she does it. And she does it also by Playing on human psychology. Charlotte is one of the most intelligent characters ever to grace the pages of literature. She is brilliant, not only in terms of her vocabulary, she immediately defines words for Wilbur. Poor Wilbur. As I said, I think he's probably a little bit like my cat, who also probably would need a lot of words explained to him. But Charlotte has this tremendous vocabulary, and she knows what words mean, and she's always explaining them to Wilbur. But it's the words, the words that she weaves in her web that change everything.
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John J. Miller
I get orb weavers on my house in late summer, early fall, and they're. They're pretty, but they're also creepy because they're spiders. Never has one written a word on. On the web. What happens when Charlotte start writing letters on her web?
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
And it's interesting how she begins to. To come up with this plot because, of course, she is incredibly intelligent. And once Wilbur realizes what's going to happen to him, and it's. I always find it interesting that it's the sheep and the geese and these other animals, they all know what's going on. They all know about the conspiracy that's going to happen here and as they call it, that they're all going to be involved, the humans that Wilbur thinks are his friends who feed him and take care of him, that come winter, they are going to be putting them in the smokehouse. I always find it interesting that it's that the sheep don't talk about what happens to the lambs. I find that really intriguing. We never hear about what happened to the lambs. We have a new crop of lambs every year, but we don't talk about what happened to the last crop of lambs. But we have this kind of. These kind of down to earth pragmatic animals here. But it's Charlotte whom Wilbur originally thinks of as being bloodthirsty because of the way that spiders eat. He thinks that she's. She's cruel and bloodthirsty, grabs the insects and gets them and sucks their. You know, I suck their blood and enjoys them, even though she does throw in the little anesthetic service, as she points out. She is so intelligent, though, that she's thinking through this and she sees how traumatized Wilbur is by his impending doom, and she plans to save him. She plans to keep him from the smokehouse by using words. And so she starts with the words, some pig. It's interesting. The words she chooses are very strategic in terms of manipulating her audience. E.B. white, as we'll talk about, certainly knows a thing of three about words. So the idea that she doesn't just put something up there like, wow, she specifically targets that. Those words to the pig, some pig. Those are the first words she puts in there. So it's very clear that she takes the attention from herself. It's not about Charlotte and about. One of the things I love about this book is how nobody says, that's the world's most incredible spider. Is this the spider that bit Peter Parker? What is this crazy spider we've got in our barn? Nope. Her trick works. She gets everybody to look at Wilbur. She gets everybody to say, can you look at this pig? Check out this incredible pig. So she starts with some pig, moves on to terrific, radiant. And then finally, her last performance, humble.
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John J. Miller
Now, in spinning these words into her web, she creates a sensation. Today, we might call it agrotourism or something, right? I mean, people. People come from around the. You know, everywhere they want to go see this. This spider web and this pig and so forth.
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
And it's really charming how that works. And again, this is a book written in the 50s, so some of the descriptions of the cars and that kind of thing are really adorable and fun and nostal. But of all the people coming, she would be an Internet sensation. But then today, everybody would think it was done with AI. No one would would believe that it actually was a natural occurrence. But this sensation, she keeps weaving the words because she's not sure that Zuckerman gets the picture. And true, there's still sort of talk of bacon and ham up to the fair when Wilbur has his great performance there at the fair, which is both beautiful and sad. Toward the end of the no. And then once Zuckerman gets a medal for Wilbur, then Wilbur is safe. And we know that by the end of the book that he makes it. He has a long, long life. He gets to see all the seasons change. As justice Charlotte promised, she holds true, she does indeed do exactly what she said she would do. She saves his life.
- [16:35]
John J. Miller
You're listening to the Great Books Podcast, and I'd like to tell you about our sponsor, which is the Herzog Foundation. Education is one of the most important issues shaping our nation's future. And the lion is here to keep you informed. Created by the Herzog Foundation, a leading national foundation dedicated to improving the quality of K12 education, the lion is your go to source for all things education, as well as issues impacting families, parenting, and culture. Whether you're a parent, grandparent, teacher, or education enthusiast, the lion delivers in depth reporting, thoughtful analysis, and inspiring stories. From school choice to classroom innovation, the lion keeps you informed on the issues that matter most. Stay informed and inspired. Visit readlion.com that's r e a d l I o n readlion.com and subscribe today. So, Elizabeth, you projected forward for us just now. You said Wilbur lives, right? He's in this. He spared the act initially, then he spared it permanently. He's not gonna become bacon. That's good news. That's a happy ending. But there's also real sadness in this book, what happens toward the end.
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
So this is a book about time as well as about words and about how time works and the way in which the seasons work beautifully. This book begins in the spring. I'm glad we're recording now. This is the perfect time of year for this, as we. It's kind of odd here in my neck of the W woods. It's an unusual sort of false spring kind of day. We'll have more snow. It's not. It's not. It's not spring yet, but I had a report that there are possible crocuses near my house, so everybody was pretty excited about that. It starts in the spring, and then it ends in the spring, although we get a little bit more of that sort of projection, knowing that Wilbur has a long, long life. So it's all about these cycles, about time and about how life works. That's one of the beautiful things about the book. So that even though it is sad, sad in many ways, it has those sad touches. It's sad in the same way that it's sad when the last leaves fall off the tree in the fall. It's sad when the snow finally melts and it's gone. It's a sadness that's turning into something else. And so that's this sort of beauty that we have of nature. And it's interesting that Wilbur starts off by thinking that Charlotte is cruel and that she's. Is, you know, awful and monstrous for what she does. But by the end, he realizes what a terrible mistake he's made. That she is the truest friend, that she is beautiful, that she is good. Nature's kind of like that. Nature can be terrible. I was just seeing that firsthand last year in my community. Just unbelievable what we've seen here. And yet nature is also beautiful. There are crocuses trying to come up. So there's that. That wonderful push, pull here that we have, particularly with the death of Charlotte.
- [19:36]
John J. Miller
Death looms over this book. It's right there in the first sentence with. With papa in the Axe. And. And Wilbur gets his reprieve. This character lives. Charlotte, our title character, she has a different fate.
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
Yes, well, she is a spider. They only live so long. As a beekeeper, this is one of the things that. That I comfort myself with when I occasionally get somebo. And right now, every time it's a warm day, the bees throw out the ones who haven't made it, and they're dead bees out there, and it's really upsetting. I just sometimes tell myself, they live three weeks. They live three weeks. Because she does have a short lifespan, and there's that beautiful line about what's a life anyway? We're born, we live a little, we die. That's that cycle of life that is so important in this novel. And it's interesting that Charlotte, although she worked so hard to save Wilbur and pigs, do actually have, naturally, a fairly long lifespan. So that's not unrealistic. Spiders don't. There's really nothing we could do to extend Charlotte's lifespan. She lives a little, and she does something miraculous, and then she dies. She does leave behind her children, though, who bring great comfort to Wilbur and create this ongoing cycle of friendship that is so beautiful.
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John J. Miller
We'll get to the children in a moment because that's an important part at the. At the end, the children of. Of Charlotte. But her death is so crushingly sad. She dies. She dies alone. Why does it affect us this way?
- [21:07]
Elizabeth Baird Hardy
I'm sorry, and I'll apologize right now. I will be crying for the rest of this talk, and that's all right. I cry over Charlotte every time. I can't tell you how many times I've read this book. I really wish I'd kept track. But every time, she died alone. That is so hard because she dies at the fair. She makes her last ditch effort. She gives everything to Wilbur. She goes with him to the fair, even though it's time for her to lay her eggs, it's time for her to languish, as she says. And she explains to him what it. She goes to the fair, and then Wilbur goes home and she dies there alone. And so that is devastating. It is so hard. I don't know that I've ever cried over a literary character as much as Charlotte, and yet it is still. It's not crushing in the sense that it's tragic because it is a part of life, and Charlotte accepts it. She understands it. She knows how it works. And so even though it is very sad for us, it is also something that. It's how the seasons work. It's how time works. And it's not unheard of. It's not surprising. It's just hard for us to see her go.
- [22:15]
John J. Miller
It's sad. It's also beautiful in certain ways. That's the end of the book. But there is a little bit more. And there is a message here, I think, in Charlotte's Web, that amid all this death, the death that surrounds us constantly, life goes on.
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
Absolutely. And it's really interesting. A character we haven't talked about yet, but I definitely want to talk about, is Templeton the rat. Templeton goes to the fair under duress. He goes only because he's bribed, because of food. And these three characters, Charlotte, Templeton, and Wilbur, they seem just like, you know, these interesting characters in this book. This is what we would call in literature a soul triptych. They. They form this kind of triangle. We have Wilbur, who is the heart and soul of the story. I mean, he is the. He's the reason why we do all this. We care about Wilbur. We have Charlotte, who is the brains of the outfit. She is the intelligence. But we also have the physical side of things, the body. And that's Templeton. He is the slave of his belly. In fact, Wilbur bribes him with his slops for the rest of his life. He gives Templeton his first fruits there. He can have slops first if he will take home Charlotte's egg sac, because Wilbur doesn't have little fingers like a rat does. And so the rat gets that egg sack, takes it home, and the. And that sort of soul triptych is complete here. As that life, that cycle continues, Charlotte's children go home. Wilbur looks over them, and then each year, those coming generations, her descendants, continue to be in the barn, although nobody quite takes Charlotte's place, ever.
- [23:56]
John J. Miller
Templeton the rat is a great character. He's full of comic relief. He's a funny character. We like him. He's self interested and interested in food all the time, and just a lovely character. But then he performs this incredible service at the end where he brings Charlotte's egg sack back to the barn. And eventually we meet the children of Charlotte, children that'll never know their mother. And they're born in the barn. And that's roughly how the book ends. Although at the top of the. You told us this has one of the great openings in literature with that striking scene of Papa with the axe you also mentioned. Has a great finish, a great conclusion. How does this book end at the very end? What happens?
- [24:38]
Elizabeth Baird Hardy
Oh, right, I have to read it. And again, I apologize for the tears. Wilbur never forgot Charlotte. Although he loved her children and grandchildren dearly, none of the new spiders ever quite took her place in his heart. She was in a class by herself. It is not often that someone comes along who is a true friend and a good writer. Charlotte was both.
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John J. Miller
Wow. The line that sticks out for me is the one that calls her a writer. But how do you read this passage? What makes it so great?
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
Well, if my name were Charlotte, that would go on my tombstone because that's how I like to be remembered, as a good friend and a good writer. And in fact, I got permission just yesterday to share this. I have some college friends that about seven years ago, and I actually was instrumental in getting them hooked up. This couple helped them to kind of. I matched them up in college, and she passed away about seven years ago. She had a long, long illness. We knew that that was coming, and he got in touch with me and we communicated on and off over the years and remained friends. Friends. And he sent me a note and said, I'm writing something for Janelle. And he said it was all right to use their names. I wanted to make sure. He said, I'm writing something for her, and I want you to look at it because you're my Charlotte. And of course, I mean, how was I going to say, no, I definitely don't. But that's. He knew that I would know that he needed me to help with words because he's a math and science guy. And I said, well, of course. But he actually did brilliantly. He didn't need a lot of help. That opportunity to be a good friend and also use the skills as a writer, that is priceless. And that's what Charlotte does. She is a friend to the end. She is unbelievably loyal. But she uses her skills, her skills as a writer not only to create the physical words, which is pretty amazing that she does that, but to know which words are going to have the effect of keeping Wilbur alive. She knows how to use her audience, and she knows what's going to give. Get Mr. Zuckerman's attention, what's going to save Wilbur. She knows how to do that. E.B. white knows a thing or three about writing, and he certainly has a character here who does the same.
- [26:57]
John J. Miller
So who is EB White? This great writer behind Charlotte's Web, the author Elwyn brooks White. Born 1899, died 1985. Lot we could say about this guy. Elizabeth, what do you think we need to know about EB White?
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Elizabeth Baird Hardy
Well, most people have probably encountered EB White in one of two places with, like, Charlotte's Web, the Trumpet of the Swan, those books of his that are Stuart Little, that are these sort of whimsical nature books, and the Elements of Style by Strunk and White. Those are the two places, probably. And at first, I think there's this moment for many of us that we had in college where we're flipping through our elements of Style and going, oh, my gosh, this is the same person. I know this fella. I've seen him before in a barn with a spider and a pig. That's. That's this incredible moment. But Charlotte's Web, I think she talks about her egg sac as being her, you know, magnum opus. Or, you know, this is kind of his work that brings together those two sides. This keen observer of nature and this person who really understands that words are important. We need to treat them seriously. We need to use our language in ways that are effective. And so. So that's the Charlotte's Web. The book really sort of marries those two sides of White, our very important contributor to our world of letters.
- [28:20]
John J. Miller
That's the thing I didn't appreciate about Charlotte's Web, certainly as a kid is this is a book about writing. And E.B. white was thinking about that. And I love the Elements of Style, the Strunk and White book. I make students here at Hillsdale College read it as something I assign. Normally I do not assign Charlotte's Web, although a lot of them will have known. And so my question, Elizabeth, is, is this a children's book? That's when we encounter. We read it to our kids and so on. Or is it more than that?
- [28:47]
Elizabeth Baird Hardy
Oh, yes, it is more. It's interesting. It is a children's book, but it's also a book at other times of our lives. The book that I read as a child, the book that I read as a teenager, as a young adult, because I did read it over and over again as a young mother. And now as a mother of adult children, I'm sure when I read it later on, it's different, but it's also the same because we see things very differently as children. Obviously, just as Fern grows up, over the course of the novel, as she changes. That's one of the things that I. I think the. In my later readings, I don't think I noticed this as a child. As an adult reading this book, I noticed more what happens with Fern and Abraham Avery, because I was paying attention to the animals as a kid. Fern and Avery weren't interesting. I was a kid. Who cares? But as an adult reading this book, I noticed Fern and Avery much more. Especially what happens at the fair where Fern has a little boyfriend. And so Fern wants to go spend time with Henry Fussy. Fern is not even there when Wilbur gets his medal. She's run off with her little friend, with Henry Fussy. She wants to ride the Ferris wheel. It's Avery. This horrible boy at one point tried to knock Charlotte out of her web, but then. Then falls on. On a. On a rotten goose egg. And it's just hilarious. It's great. Comic relief involves Templeton Avery, who's just this. He is all boy. He is. He has a. He has a noise with dirt on it kind of definition of boy. But he's the one at that award ceremony. He is taking care of Wilbur. He's petting Wilbur. He's. It's so interesting to see those children grow. And that's something that we see as an adult, especially as a parent, we start to see that happen. So this is not just a book for children. It's so much all this about this passage of time, about how time works so beautifully. We had. I think many people have been exposed probably, to the films that have been done of this book, and they're all right. But the best thing about both of those films, I think, is the music, particularly in the animated film. There's a wonderful song about Mother Earth and Father Time, and the older we get, the more we begin to understand how time works and how it works with the earth and nature. And that's. That's really something that we don't notice as children.
- [31:07]
John J. Miller
So much time, of course, runs out for all of us, and. And death is all over this book. It can be difficult to talk to children about death. Parents have different strategies and so forth. They all need to learn what it is, but they're. You know, you. You might introduce it in different sorts of ways. Is. Is this book a good way to teach kids about. About death?
- [31:30]
Elizabeth Baird Hardy
Oh, I think that it is because it shows. So many children's books, I think they just throw that in there just. Just because it's awful. I can still remember Bridge to Terabynthea. I. I read that book once. Never again I would. And I didn't recommend it to my children because it just. I. That was not the way that. That I thought it ought to be done. And that's. If people love that book. That's wonderful. That's not a criticism of the book. It just was not a good fit for me, this one was as a child because. Because it's that idea of the circle of life and time and all those things, that it's natural and that there is still beauty and there's still much to be appreciated. And if we love people, they're always still there. There's that wonderful sense of time going on and life continuing that. So that even though death is real, death is part of life, Life is also part of death, and it's not hopeless. And life is full of miracles. There is that wonderful line when Fern's mother goes to see the doctor, she's worried about Fern. She goes to see the doctor and talks about, you can't believe this thing about the spider's web. And the doctor says, spider's webs are miracles. They are in and of themselves. And when the. The preacher is talking about. Because they call it the miracle when he's talking about it, he says that this spider's web exists to show us the wonder that is around us every day. Wow. So, yes, death is real, but so is beauty and so is wonder, and so it's not hopeless.
- [32:59]
John J. Miller
Elizabeth, what's your story as a reader with Charlotte's Web, or maybe a listener? Right. When did you first discover this book, and what's your personal history with it?
- [33:08]
Elizabeth Baird Hardy
Well, I got it as a Christmas gift when I was 8 years old, so I was the same age as Fern. Also, I had. I had chickens growing up, and my family members, many of them had animals. Although we have a really strict rule, we always had a rule if we named an animal, it is not going to be eaten, and if you are going to eat this animal, you do not give it a name. So. So that, that was. And this book probably had a strong influence on that, that policy. But I read this book and I don't. I wore out this copy of it. I mean, the. The book that I had, the version, I still have it. Just as evidence of what you can do to a book if you read it this many times, because I read it over and over and over again. I used it as a book report in sixth grade. I dressed up as Fern. I had a little stool and everything and did. Did the whole story for class. But I continue to come back to it over and over again. I was trying to recall if I had actually read it aloud to people. And clearly I have trouble doing that without. Without being too emotional doing that. But it's a book that, that I've loved returning to, that I've loved recommending to people. I just enjoy talking about it. And it's fun when, even when I have students now who want to write about it for their argument essay, I always encourage them to do so because it is a book not just about friendship, not just about the beautiful sensory nature details, but it's a book about writing. And maybe they'll even want to read Drunken White later. I don't know.
- [34:30]
John J. Miller
Elizabeth, what's the case for reading it right now? This book is almost 75 years old. I read it to my kids. I do recommend it. But why this book among all the books we can read to our kids, why Charlotte's Web?
- [34:45]
Elizabeth Baird Hardy
It's a book that just I go back to it over and over again and it's seasonally beautiful. Every September. I read that cricket chapter every September because that chapter about the crickets and how the crickets start saying it's time. It's the summer is beautiful, but the summer is dying and, and fall is coming. And that is just so incredibly poignant and so powerful. I don't know if kids get that, but they may, they may a little, and maybe they'll come back to it later on. And as we mentioned, it's, it's a wonderful introduction to the fact fact that life and death are intrinsically bound up with each other. But that doesn't mean that we have to live in despair. Instead, it means that there is something beautiful, there is something more. There are Charlotte's children coming back in the spring. They're the peepers down in the in the creek. And that's as soon as it gets warm. That's the first thing I start listening for, is the peepers. So this is a book that still has that gorgeous power that we can revisit in many ways. It's like a prose poetry poem. Some of those descriptions are just so powerful. And it's a book that I think introduces children not only to the beauty of nature, but to the beauty of words and to the fact that we can have that sensory experience over and over again. It's definitely something worth sharing.
- [36:04]
John J. Miller
Elizabeth Baird Hardy, thanks so much for joining us and telling us all about Charlotte's Web by E.B. white.
- [36:10]
Elizabeth Baird Hardy
Thank you so much. And unlike Charlotte, I'm not just crawling up into a corner here. But thank you so much for this fantastic opportunity. It's just a joy to discuss these wonderful characters, this great book. Maybe I'll. I might be just trembling with joy, just a little like Charlotte's daughter.
- [36:29]
John J. Miller
You've just listened to the Great Books podcast, a production of National Review. Please subscribe to the Great Books Podcast and leave reviews of the show that helps us keep this podcast going. Send me your ideas for future episodes. You can reach me through my website@heymiller.com under Twitter. My handle is at. Hey Miller. Last of all, special thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back next week. The new episode of the Great Books Podcast.