Summary of "Episode 368: 'Dark Night of the Soul' by St. John of the Cross" from The Great Books Podcast
Released on April 15, 2025, "The Great Books" podcast, hosted by John J. Miller of National Review, features a deep dive into St. John of the Cross's seminal work, "Dark Night of the Soul." In Episode 368, Miller is joined by Sylvina Cerrone, an artist and translator leading the Art for Evangelists community at the Word on Fire Institute. The conversation explores the historical context, literary significance, and lasting impact of this profound poetic work.
Introduction to the Episode
John J. Miller opens the episode by welcoming Sylvina Cerrone back to the podcast, highlighting her previous discussion on the Book of Judith from the Old Testament. The focus of this episode is set on "Dark Night of the Soul," positioning it as a cornerstone of the Western literary canon and a masterpiece from Spain's Golden Age.
Understanding "Dark Night of the Soul"
Sylvina Cerrone describes the poem as an allegorical piece detailing the soul's union with God. Written during a pivotal time in the development of the Spanish language, it's not only a spiritual text but also a poetic masterpiece from Spain's Golden Age.
"This book is really very, very, very deep, is really a poem... it is written in a time where the Spanish language was being developed... a masterpiece of poetry and of this golden age of the Spanish culture."
[00:54] Sylvina Cerrone
Miller sets the agenda to explore the poem's enduring legacy, its structure, possible classification as prison literature, and its influence on visual art.
Decoding the Title: "Dark Night of the Soul"
The title often evokes notions of a faith crisis or intellectual turmoil. Miller probes whether this aligns with the poem's essence.
Sylvina clarifies that the "darkness" in St. John’s context isn't despair but a purgative process—removing all that is not God to better perceive divine light.
"The darkness... is not a darkness of despair or a darkness of loneliness. It's more of a feeling of purgation... to perceive his light better."
[02:03] Sylvina Cerrone
This aligns with earlier mystical traditions, such as the 14th-century "The Cloud of Unknowing," emphasizing that feelings of darkness can precede profound spiritual enlightenment.
Exploring the Poem's Structure and Meaning
Miller reads the first ten lines of the poem, noting its repetitive elements and contemplative tone.
"On a dark night kindled in love with yearnings... in darkness and in concealment... my house being now at rest."
[04:11] John J. Miller
Sylvina interprets these lines as the soul embarking on its spiritual journey—a transformative process likened to a damp log being set ablaze, slowly transforming into fire by shedding moisture.
"The soul has to get rid of anything that is impeding that union with God... it's the start of the journey."
[06:09] Sylvina Cerrone
She emphasizes that the poem captures the soul’s disciplined departure from worldly attachments towards divine union.
St. John of the Cross: The Man Behind the Masterpiece
Miller provides a brief biography of St. John, noting his role in the Carmelite Order's internal reformation alongside Teresa of Avila. The reformation aimed to return to the order's austere, prayer-focused origins amid political and familial pressures within Spain.
"He was trying to reform his order with rules about dress and fasting and silence and prayer... he ends up in prison in Toledo."
[10:32] John J. Miller
Sylvina details his imprisonment within the convent—a punitive measure by the order's establishment resistant to his reforms. His eventual escape, simply described humorously as a "prison breakout," underscores the strict control exerted over religious life at the time.
"He ends up in this really tiny cell and he's not treated very well there... escaping through a window with sheets knotted out."
[11:04] Sylvina Cerrone
Is "Dark Night of the Soul" Prison Literature?
Miller questions whether the poem is a product of St. John's imprisonment, categorizing it as prison literature.
Sylvina believes the poem transcends his physical circumstances, stemming from a deep, inherent spiritual process rather than mere imprisonment-induced contemplation.
"I think he would have written this poem anyway because... he had a special, I think, mystical gifts too."
[11:53] Sylvina Cerrone
Mysticism Defined and Its Relevance
Miller seeks clarity on the term "mystic" as applied to St. John of the Cross.
Sylvina explains that within the Catholic tradition, mystics are individuals deeply engaged in the spiritual journey towards God, embodying a life of contemplation and union that serves as a beacon for others.
"The mystical life is a spiritual life that every single Christian should live... mystics have extraordinary gifts... they can show us the way."
[12:54] Sylvina Cerrone
She emphasizes that "Dark Night of the Soul" offers hope by illustrating the soul’s arduous yet purposeful journey toward divine union.
Deep Dive into the Poem: Stanzas Five to Eight
Miller reads stanzas five and six, highlighting their lyrical beauty and symbolic imagery.
"O night that guided me... the fanning of the cedars made a breeze."
[15:10] John J. Miller
Sylvina interprets these lines as metaphors for the soul’s intimate and transformative union with God, drawing parallels to the "Song of Songs" and the representation of divine love as spousal love.
"It's a very old tradition of representing this union with God, with the union of lovers."
[15:52] Sylvina Cerrone
Final Stanzas: Embracing Paradox
Miller presents the concluding stanzas, noting the paradoxical themes of union and oblivion.
"He wounded my neck and caused all my senses to be suspended... leaving my cares forgotten among the lilies."
[16:00] John J. Miller
Sylvina discusses the duality of experiencing divine closeness alongside moments of doubt and darkness. This reflects the complex nature of spiritual purification, where even the most devout may feel abandoned yet are ultimately guided toward union with God.
"Even people that are very, very, very close to God might feel or think that they're not."
[17:28] Sylvina Cerrone
The Legacy of "Dark Night of the Soul" in Visual Art
Transitioning to visual representations, Sylvina highlights St. John of the Cross's unique drawing of Christ, characterized by an unconventional perspective that diverges from traditional depictions.
"You can see the cross from above, from the right side... the perspective is very different."
[21:00] Sylvina Cerrone
This drawing inspired Salvador Dalí's 1951 painting, "Christ of St. John of the Cross," a controversial yet iconic work housed in a Glasgow museum. Dalí's rendition echoes the mystic’s unique perspective, transcending conventional artistic norms.
"Salvador Dali was inspired one of the great artists of the 20th century to create a painting that he called Christ of St. John of the Cross."
[22:43] Sylvina Cerrone
Surrealism and Mysticism: Bridging Two Worlds
Miller connects the dots between surrealism—a movement Dalí famously spearheaded—and mysticism. He probes whether "Dark Night of the Soul" embodies surrealistic elements.
Sylvina concurs, noting surrealism's focus on the unconscious and the juxtaposition of irrational images resonates with the poem’s depiction of simultaneous light and darkness, creation and void.
"Surrealism is trying to depict that world, trying to depict whatever is in the unconscious."
[26:36] Sylvina Cerrone
She draws parallels between the poem’s timeless essence and surrealist attempts to transcend conventional perception, positioning both as explorations of deeper existential truths.
Artistic Controversy and Cultural Impact
The episode touches on the initial backlash against Dalí's "Christ of St. John of the Cross," which faced criticism for its unconventional religious portrayal. Sylvina remarks on its significance as an early instance of "cancel culture."
"They organized a demonstration against the museum in Glasgow buying that painting."
[27:57] Sylvina Cerrone
This controversy underscores the enduring tension between traditional religious representations and avant-garde artistic expressions.
Engaging with Word on Fire and Art for Evangelists
As the conversation nears its end, Miller invites Sylvina to discuss her role with the Word on Fire Institute and the Art for Evangelists community.
Sylvina explains that Word on Fire, founded by Bishop Barron, aims to evangelize culture through various mediums. The Art for Evangelists community offers specialized spaces for writers, theologians, artists, and educators to collaborate and grow in their respective fields.
"Depending on what your interests are, you can be part of it and grow wherever the Lord is calling you."
[31:39] Sylvina Cerrone
Listeners are encouraged to engage with the Institute's resources, including a quarterly journal and a repository of digital content, to deepen their understanding and participation.
The Relevance of "Dark Night of the Soul" Today
In closing, Miller prompts Sylvina to articulate why reading "Dark Night of the Soul" remains pertinent in contemporary times.
Sylvina asserts that despite its seemingly somber title, the poem embodies hope. It reassures readers that enduring spiritual struggles are integral to achieving divine union, aligning with the Catholic Church's celebration of hope.
"Hope is that certainty in the heart that we know what the end of the road is... the journey to the union with God."
[33:45] Sylvina Cerrone
This message resonates universally, offering solace and purpose during personal or collective challenges.
Conclusion
John J. Miller thanks Sylvina Cerrone for her insightful exploration of "Dark Night of the Soul," emphasizing the poem's timeless significance and its profound influence across literature and art. Listeners are encouraged to subscribe to The Great Books podcast and engage with future discussions that continue to illuminate the pillars of the Western literary canon.
Notable Quotes with Timestamps:
-
"This book is really very, very, very deep, is really a poem..."
[00:54] Sylvina Cerrone -
"The darkness... is not a darkness of despair or a darkness of loneliness."
[02:03] Sylvina Cerrone -
"Even people that are very, very, very close to God might feel or think that they're not."
[17:28] Sylvina Cerrone -
"Surrealism is trying to depict that world, trying to depict whatever is in the unconscious."
[26:36] Sylvina Cerrone -
"Hope is that certainty in the heart that we know what the end of the road is."
[33:45] Sylvina Cerrone
For more insights and detailed discussions on seminal literary works, subscribe to The Great Books podcast and explore the rich tapestry of Western literary heritage with National Review.