Dr. Jamie Hope (5:48)

And I think that's amazing, Jill, because a lot of people who. Who do drink, and they're starting to question, you know, every year it comes around in January, New Year's resolutions, dry January. And people like, well, if I can quit for a month, I don't have a problem. But a lot of people are asking themselves in the back of their mind, is this serving me? Do I have a good relationship with alcohol? There it is, unfortunately, very socially acceptable. You could be at a. A kid's first birthday party, and in the back people are having mom juice. But that doesn't seem like an addiction because you're not chugging liquor out of a paper bag and in an alley.

Jill Stone (6:23)

So that's right.

Dr. Jamie Hope (6:25)

Handle. You know, what would you say to people who are just kind of questioning is, is alcohol serving them or. Or how is that looking?

Jill Stone (6:33)

Well, I would say that. That the first and foremost, the most important thing is to be completely honest with yourself, because I know that a lot of people who think that they have a struggle also are so afraid to do anything about it, they can't imagine their life without it or whatever. So I have found that a lot of times in the people that I have helped over the years that they, they, they. They. They kind of want to say, yes, this is an issue, but they hold back and they almost try to, like, lie to themselves. And I think that's why a lot of. And I don't mean lie in a bad way, just in other. They just don't know what to. Takes them more time than it necessarily needs to to get into recovery. So just be completely honest with yourself about what alcohol means to you and to. And how much you drink and how much you think about drinking, not just how much you're actually drinking. How much do you think about it? How much do you think about planning it, buying it, hiding it? You know, are you a hider? That's not normal drinking, right? That, to me, that is not that. That is showing signs that I think something is up that I don't want other people to know. So total honesty. And then. And. And it. It can take some time, but that is the first step towards really figuring out, do I need to address this situation?

Dr. Jamie Hope (7:57)

And I, I think that's really important. Just start asking those questions. And I want to get to, you know, how do you deal with emotional highs and lows and all of those things? But first I feel like we just need to address for those people who are questioning and starting to ask those questions. Many people see an alcohol free life as, this is the sad thing. So tell me, Jill, you just, you just sit at home every day, you have no social life, and you're just sad thinking about how you can't drink, right? After 20 years, this is your. Listen.

Jill Stone (8:24)

I mean, yeah, sure. I mean, it could not be more opposite than that.

Dr. Jamie Hope (8:29)

I love it.

Jill Stone (8:30)

And I will say that, like, I understand people who maybe still be drinking or just starting their journey in recovery, who think that the fun is over, that, that the good times are in my rearview mirror and that I'm just going to somehow have to struggle through and make, I don't know, mediocrity of my life, be the best I'm going to get. And it is, it is so not true. I work at a treatment center in West Bloomfield, Michigan, and I tell the patients all the time, you know, you may think right now that all the good times are behind you and that you are going to be bored the rest of your life. And I say to them, I promise you it's not true. I said, because right now what's happening to them is they're spending all of their time pushing alcohol away, going, I can't do that anymore. Whether it's drugs or alcohol, I can't do that anymore. It's just not part of my life anymore. And they think they're going to have to spend the rest of their life using willpower to force it away, which if that were true for me, I would be miserable, too. I would be completely miserable. Because willpower is a finite resource. And there may be. I may be able to be able to hold my life together without drinking for a month, a year, five or even 10 years. But what I know is that eventually my brain is going to get so exhausted from fighting it that eventually I'm probably going to give in. We talk about in, in. And some people might not like this. In Alcoholics Anonymous, which is where I've been a member for the last almost 20 years, we talk about the difference between being in recovery and just not drinking. So there is a major difference between the two. Because if I had just, when I got into recovery, had I just stopped Drinking and changed nothing else. I would be miserable because I would still be thinking the same way. My thoughts would still be the same, but my. And my behaviors would still be the same, except for just not grabbing a bottle to drink out of. What recovery means to me today is. It's absolutely like they say in aa. You don't have to change every. Anything. You don't have to change one thing. You have to change everything. And I always say to myself, yes, but not necessarily like, I had to step away from my group of friends when. When I first got sober, because they were the ones I drank with. And it was very difficult. I was married to a man that I drank with all the time. That was very difficult. I had to remove myself. I had to change that about me for a while until I got comfortable. I no longer had the desire for alcohol. And once I had no longer had the desire and the obsession to. The obsession of the mind, we say in a. To a. It's an allergy of the body and an obsession of the mind. That is the part that you have to work on. The. The. What work you do is so that eventually, if we're not giving our brains. I know I'm going all over the place right now. I apologize. But when. When we give our brains that just very quickly, we have the primitive part of our brain back here that thinks that dopamine is as it was when. Because that's the oldest part of our brain, that dopamine is necessary for survival. Back in caveman days, what did we need to stay alive every day? Because every day we could die, something could kill us, right? We. So food gives us dopamine. That's important to survival, water survival. So it gives us the dopamine that we need, and it tells us, remember this. We need to do more of this because this is necessary for our survival. The. So all these things, sex, appropriation and shelter, warmth, those things, they are all necessary for our survival. So here's the problem. This part of our brain is still trying to keep us alive. This recent part of our brain, the prefrontal cortex, that the most recent development of our brain, it knows that we no longer have to worry about survival like that on a daily basis, for the most part, for most people. So now we have a war going on in our head. This part of our brain says, no, no, no. We need whatever brings us dopamine because it'll keep us alive. And this part of our brain says, no, no, not, not. That's not true, though, anymore. Especially when it comes To a substance like alcohol. When you have alcohol or drugs that are a. They are a concentrated source of pleasure that will, or, you know, when we put it in our bodies, it actually becomes like a. An absolute flood of dopamine comes because that's what happens in our brains. So now we've got a problem starting. We've got this part of our brain telling us that we need whatever brings us dopamine. This part of our brain doesn't know that alcohol is poisonous. This part of our brain does not know that alcohol can kill us, that drugs can kill us. It only wants dopamine. This part of our brain says, no, no, no, this isn't good for us. This is not good for me. I can't do this. I shouldn't be doing this. And so the, the part about recovery, when you get into recovery, it's learning that we can say no to our brains, that we can tell this primitive part of our brain, we hear you. I hear that that's what you want. I know that that makes me feel good. But this part of our brain says no, it can kill us. It's not good for me. I need to move forward. I need to find other ways of making myself happy, right? Of bringing that dopamine on. And I'll only say in finishing up with that, not even sure if I answered your first question was that that as we tell our brain, no, we're not doing that today, kindly, I always say it to self, kindly, I'm not doing that. We're not doing that today. The brain, this part of our brain starts to go, okay, well, I can see we're not getting what we want anymore. So now I start doing other things that do. Bring me some dopamine and it starts. New neural pathways are formed. The old ones of always wanting the alcohol start to pave over and the new ones form because I'm teaching my brain. No, we get it from different sources is now we don't go back to that. And I think that once that happens and once you start, that's when the obsession starts to leave. Because now you're teaching your brain, no, we don't have to do this. We. We will be okay. It's not necessary for our survival. Because sometimes when I had a craving for alcohol, I literally thought it was going to kill me if I didn't drink, if I didn't pick up and drink. So we don't have to do it at as. As we go ahead and start not giving our brain the alcohol, the obsession will slowly the brain Will start new neural pathways of looking for dopamine elsewhere. That's when the obsession to drink leaves at that point. That's when you can start figuring out how to manage emotions, how to manage your emotions each day. Because to me, once that physical compulsion is gone that you of drinking now the rest of recovery to me is dealing with emotions day in and day out. That most of emotions that don't feel good, not I, I. You know, some people drink because they just want to party, celebrate, celebrate, celebrate. Like they can't have a drink without celebrating. Most people though, drink to numb feelings, to numb negative emotions. And that is the real work, the long term work of recovery is learning that I can feel any emotion and I don't have to drink over it because I've learned tools and I've learned how to let feelings go through my body and be there and be present for them and not do anything self destructive. They do go away. All feelings go away. They have like kind of an ebb and then they just, then they go back down and they do disappear. Now they may come back 15 more times in a day. But each time I get over that hump and I just allow my body to have that feeling in it and not run from it, not hide from it and not even really necessarily distract from it. Like if I have a negative feeling, I'll go for a walk for sure. But it's important that I let it be in me and realize that it can't kill me. No emotion can kill me, no emotion can hurt me. But it feels like it can. That's the work of recovery to me.

Dr. Jamie Hope (16:59)

I mean, Joe, that, that's incredible. So it's such a light at the end of the tunnel. Because people in those early days of recovery where you're kind of, what do you call it? White knuckling it, Right. They feel like that's going to be forever. And you sound joyful and happy and you have this fantastic social life and, and so much joy. So let's talk about some of those tools you need. Because we do, when we have a bad emotion, we feel like it's going to last forever. When in reality it's what, 90 seconds up to a few minutes. Right, right. And so what kind of tools have you utilized to help you with those emotions instead of alcohol?

Jill Stone (17:35)

Well, I will say that, that a couple things that the, the one thing I just mentioned about allowing the, the feeling to be in your body and not act on it, but just I, the way I like to look at it is if I Have a really negative emotion. I, I almost am like, like I'm a watcher. Almost like I, In a way, I'm. I'm. I'm really curious what is this doing to me, why I feel it? And, and, and why do. Why. What is the, you know, thought process behind why this is so awful? Every time I just get curious about what it feels like and everything and just allow it to be there, it ends up. I. You kind of get to a peak and then. And then it starts to feel better. And every time I do that, every time, whether it's a craving for alcohol and urge to drink or whether it's any negative emotion or even positive emotions that make you want to drink, every time I get of those cycles where it hurts, I don't like it. I, My, My instant reaction is I want to go grab something to numb the. Numb the feeling. Every time I do that, I now have, the next time it happens, it is this much shorter and this much less intense. Okay? Now it might take a bunch of these to get a bunch of these experiences to get to the other side, but I disarm it because I don't give my brain what it's looking for, which is relief from the pain, relief from the negative emotion. More I don't give it to it. It. It starts to give up. It starts to say, okay, again, we've got to go to something else. Because she's not giving me the one thing I know that will immediately make me feel better. And that is, to me is such a tool of, of allowing yourself to just be there in the, in the emotions. And I even have had. I've sponsored so many women. I will tell them, get a jar. Okay, just get a pretty jar. And men could do this too, but, you know, maybe the jars would look differently. But get a jar and then get some, like some crystal beads or some. Just go pick out some. Some rocks and small rocks. And each time they go through an urge, each time they feel that, a negative feeling, and they process all the way through it and don't do anything to hurt themselves. You know, the grab. Grab for a drink or a drug or whatever, put one of those pebbles in the jar. Because the brain loves to see that it is making progress. The brain loves that it gets rewarded. So all of a sudden, if I've processed through all of these urges, these cravings that really all. An urge or a craving is, is a very strong feeling of desire. It's just a feeling, an urge and a craving. They are only feelings. They cannot hurt. Us, they cannot kill us, but they feel like they might when we're first getting sober. So if you can take it, every time you get through one of those feelings and you put one of. Put a pebble or a bead in the jar, you're going to walk by it and you're going to go as. As you're putting more in saying, every time I've gotten through something difficult, I've. Look at all the progress I've made. And I promise you that by the end of. By the 25th urge or negative feeling that you have felt without reacting to it, you. It will be not nearly as strong as the first. And by the time you get to the 50th urge or the 50th negative feeling, it will feel nothing as bad as the 25th did, to the point where all of a sudden it's. You're able to just kind of flow through good and bad emotions without having to harm yourself for it.

Dr. Jamie Hope (21:11)

I mean, that's incredible. I love seeing results. I'm the type of person that'll put something on my to do list that I just finished just so I can check it off.

Jill Stone (21:18)

That's right.

Dr. Jamie Hope (21:19)

That's a dopamine hit, right?

Jill Stone (21:20)

It totally is.

Dr. Jamie Hope (21:22)

And so I love this visual of. I mean, think of how many times in a day we have an uncomfortable feeling, and instead of hiding from it, whether it's from alcohol or mindless scrolling or some other form of numbing or distraction versus actually metabolizing it and processing it, it's. It's like lifting a weight, you know, doing a bicep curl. And that it continues to get stronger and easier.

Jill Stone (21:44)

That's right.

Dr. Jamie Hope (21:45)

What an inspiring message.

Jill Stone (21:46)

Oh, it's. It's just because, gosh, I don't know. When I got sober, I thought, like, really that this was. I remember going to my first AA meeting, and I walked in and I sat at a table with a group of people I'd never, ever met before. And I had judgments about them, of course. Of course. I was like, well, I'm not as bad as these people, but I was every bit as bad as those people. But I sat down and the first thing. I'll never forget this. Everyone at the table was talking to each other. They were laughing, they were joking around. And this was my train of thought as I sat there. What are you laughing about? Do you not know your life is over when it comes to fun and enjoyment and anything? Because in my mind, even though alcohol had become such a. Just heavy chains around me, because it was running my life. Even though that was true, I still thought that I could look at these people and say, your life is over. You'll never have, never have fun again as long as you live. And, and I, I can look back now and, and chuckle about it because I didn't know. What I didn't know and what I found out from those people who, who paid the message forward to me, the way someone had done it for them was there is so much joy to experience in life. There is so much fun to be had. And none of it has to have anything to do with drinking or drugging it doesn't it, it's, it's. I have, I have had the most fun in my entire life sober. I just had convinced myself my, my thinking was. And what society had taught me was alcohol is the first thing invited to every party. You can't have a party without it. And I bought into it. The, the alcohol bottle is what the fun is contained within the bottle. And it is an absolute lie.

Dr. Jamie Hope (23:42)

Well, and I ask people, but, okay, so to, you know, patients when they come in, often with an acute illness, to the ER directly related to it. And I'm like, well, tell me about the, the good times. The, the, the heartburn, the, the vomiting, the, the shaking, the arrests. I, I heard something that would. Struck me as, as funny in a very good way. At an AA meeting when a person said, I'm allergic to alcohol, I break out in handcuffs.

Jill Stone (24:04)

Yes.

Dr. Jamie Hope (24:05)

So it's very funny because we're trained to think that these are the good times. But taking a good honest look back, like, was it that good? You know, do you remember your kid's third birthday party? Do you, you know, how many times did you have a narrow escape? How many actual DUIs? And it's, it's very interesting when you have very honest conversations with people. The quote unquote, good times aren't nearly as good as we think they are.

Jill Stone (24:33)

It's, it, it has a lot to do with society's message about alcohol. And we have been conditioned, we have belief systems around what alcohol means in this world. And it's very dangerous. And it's so damaging for people who may realize that they can't just have a drink of, you know, a glass of something at a restaurant with some, with people. And then when the, when the dinner is over for the normal people, this, the light switch goes off in their head. In your head, you go home and you don't think about alcohol anymore. You had a glass of wine with dinner with Fred, friends And you don't think about it anymore. You go to bed. That was very enjoyable. You like the taste of it, all of those things. But when you're addicted to alcohol or when you have a problem with it, I mean, to me, I always said that, like, when I drank, because I didn't have to drink every single day. I did at the very end.

Dr. Jamie Hope (25:26)

But I'm a myth. People think you're not an alcoholic if you're not drinking every day. I love that you brought that.

Jill Stone (25:31)

Oh, oh, gosh, no. Like, I would say that there are as many people in recovery that I sit with at tables, at meetings and in treatment, talk to them in treatment who are binge drinkers and not everyday drinkers because. But it is equally as damaging. It does not mean you're not, you don't have a problem or you're not an alcoholic, whatever you want to call yourself a person in recovery if you don't drink every day. That is a myth. It, it's. If you're a binge drinker, it's when you start, you can't stop. Like I was going to say, it's the. I remember feeling like when I started drinking, there was a light switch in my head that would turn on and as soon as I started drinking, it would be duct taped over so that I couldn't possibly turn it off. That was my brain. I didn't know how to turn it off. Okay. Now, normal people, they go, I say normies, they go, they have a, they have a drink at dinner, they have a drink at night, whatever. And then that light switch gets turned off. They're like, yes, I had. That was very nice. Like, my husband, he has one glass. We go to restaurants. He will spend time looking at the menu, picking out something to eat, and then he'll spend 15 minutes, like, looking at the wine menu, finding that perfect glass of wine to pair with what he's eating. And that is so foreign to me. I was just like, I don't. Just give me a box of wine. Thank you. I'm good.

Dr. Jamie Hope (26:46)

You know, so like a Capri sun, like stick a straw in the, in the giant bag. Jill, I love that you brought that up because I think that's going to shock a lot of people that, that you are married to somebody who, who does drink and you go to social events and other people are drinking and not only aren't you scolding them, right, you're not walking around, you have a terrible. You know, but you're also not, not feeling triggered. So how do you handle that.

Jill Stone (27:09)

I don't have triggers anymore. I think that the work I've done, it's all about again I get back to. For me and I think for most people that I have in, in my years in recovery, it is about learning how to handle negative emotions. And once I learned that like for instance, six and a half years ago I lost my mom. Three, three and a half years ago I lost my sister. Both devastating to me. There was not a chance in that I was ever going to pick up a drink. In fact, before my mom passed away, I was sitting with her on her hospital bed and I looked at her. Now she knew I'd been sober for a long time. I was sober, what, 13 years at the time. And I looked at her and I said, I want to tell you something, mom. I don't ever want you to worry. Because we knew that she was dying and she knew. And I said, I just want to, I want to tell you one last time. I said, I will never take a drink again, but I'm going to do it one day at a time. And I said, you don't have to worry about me when you're gone. And she just like couldn't talk much but just got this smile and she said, I know that. And like that moment, I will never, I mean it's in my heart forever and ever and ever. But I didn't have to drink after my mom died. I didn't have to drink after my sister died because I know that no emotions can kill me. There is no emotion that can kill me. It just feels really awful and terrible. But I'd way rather feel my negative emotions and stay sober than think I can't handle my emotions and have to drink over them. Wow.

Dr. Jamie Hope (28:48)

I mean that is, oh my gosh, this is so inspiring. And we've, we've hit on some really good myths that you'll never, that you'll never have fun again. That you can't be around people, that you're going to be white knuckling and craving and triggered indefinitely. And then the society's messages about alcohol. There's a lot of honestly essentially myths around how healthy alcohol is. The resveratrol and red wine, the teeny tiny amount compared to the massive carcinogen in there. And these alcohol fueled and funded messages that moderate drinking is health protective. What are your thoughts about that?

Jill Stone (29:23)

Well, I know that the surgeon general just came out and says he wants a warning on alcohol bottles saying that first of all the alcohol can cause cancer. Like a lot of mouth you know, throat, obviously, liver, stomach cancer, you know, those kind of things, which I think would be great. I think that anything we can do would be great. But I also listen to. I don't know if you do, but I think you do. Andrew Huberman of the Huberman Lab has, which I absolutely adore, that podcast he did. He has done, he's a neurobiologist out of Stanford and he has done quite a bit of work in the field of alcohol and he's done some podcasts on it and he has come out and said that they have that studies and everything has shown that not one drop of alcohol is good like a drink a week is, Is poisonous for you. It is. There are no health benefits to it and that any drinking at all is a negative on your health. And you know, he said, I remember him saying, you know, people say, oh, I drink, but I do, I drink red wine because it's got the, you know, all the antioxidants and all that stuff. And he says, he said the amount of red wine you would have to drink to actually get the benefit of what red wine can give your health would far do far more damage than any health you get. I mean, you would have to drink huge amounts of red wine in order to get those that benefit. And he's like, you'll be worrying about a much different problem than, you know, what the alcohol could, you know, how it could help you. And so that I'm, yeah, that's.

Dr. Jamie Hope (31:01)

And I love that this is finally coming through after so many years of industry funding that the health science is showing not only is there no benefit, but it is a, it is a known carcinogen.

Jill Stone (31:11)

It is.

Dr. Jamie Hope (31:12)

Right. A known poison. And so helping us undo those messages. One, to get young people to just not start in the first place.

Jill Stone (31:20)

Right.

Dr. Jamie Hope (31:21)

People who are teetering. You know, there are some beliefs, you, you know, you're born an alcoholic or whatever, but some people, I think it can become situational and things that continue to push them.

Jill Stone (31:31)

That's right.

Dr. Jamie Hope (31:31)

I also appreciate, Jill, that you shared. You people assume anyone who drinks had to have this horrible trauma, right? This, this really awful, terrible, either ongoing event or event. And if you haven't experienced something like that, you're just drinking to have a good time, you don't become an alcoholic. And so, I mean, this has been incredibly myth busting. Are there any other good myths that we should tackle? I know we hit, we hit a lot of the really good ones.

Jill Stone (31:56)

I guess I would probably just say that, that one thing I see a Lot, especially working in the treatment center, is that people see a relapse. You know, you've gotten sober, you've. You. You or. Or, you know, sober or dry. I mean, excuse me, like clean from drugs for a little bit. And then they relapse. And they think that a relapse is a part of recovery. And I think that's a myth. I believe that relapse is a part of addiction, not a part of recovery. Okay, so that's a myth. But also I think that the myth that. That people are. That people look at other people who have a drinking or drug problem as less than, as not strong, as like, oh, my God, you had to admit, like, that that stigma, you know, that is just awful that. That puts that. People that come into treatment are like, I don't want anyone to know. I can't let anybody know because they're going to, like, come down. And it's so sad. I'm telling you, the strongest people in the world are the people that go into recovery and stay clean and sober, period. End of story. And if anybody ever questions, you know, people say to me, ever, if they kind of give me like a little look of judgment, you know, because they have that. They see that stigma is true, you know, that, like, that if you're an alcoholic, you're kind of a, you know, less than. Or, you know, I just let people think, like, I try to tell them, like, I'm like, oh, no, I'm. You know, these people are complete heroes to me. But sometimes you just have to let people think what they think and not let it bother you. And I know it's hard to do that. But there are people in my life who just don't understand addiction at all. They live a life of moderation. It's how they exist. They don't understand addiction. And people have often said to me, like, when. How do you deal with people like that? And I say, well, you know, I just let my life be the example of how it can turn around. And then I just let them have their false beliefs. Because you know what? I. I can't spend my life in recovery literally worrying about what everybody else thinks of me as long as I know I'm doing the next right thing, as long as I'm in integrity with myself, which is so much what recovery is all about, because I wasn't in integrity with myself when I was drinking. But if I live a life of integrity now, and if I know I'm doing the next right thing, then I can't worry about what Anybody else thinks about my addiction, because I know I'm doing the right thing. I know that I am on the right path. I know I'm being kind to people. I know that I don't have mean bones in my body that I'm trying to get back at. And so it's okay. If people have that opinion of me, I'll let them. I'm going to let them have their opinion. Because you know why? I don't have a chance of changing it anyway, so why try? You know, that's what I think about.

Dr. Jamie Hope (34:54)

Like, fighting with strangers on the Internet. It changes nobody's mind, and it. It just entrenches them deeper. But you, the way that you've overcome stigma, because there are people who legitimately, due to their profession or their, you know, standing in society or however you want to look at it, the stigma is actually what's keeping them hidden, keeping them in addiction in their own mind. Of course, it's a. You know, it's a prison of our own mind. But you. So you sharing your story publicly are giving people. Because you are. You're. You're a respectable person. You're a professional. You. You're well put together. And it just goes to show that addiction can look like anything. It can happen to any of us, right?

Jill Stone (35:34)

Yes.

Dr. Jamie Hope (35:35)

But also by sharing it, and it helps overcome the stigma. I mean, Jill, you've really become a beacon of hope for people. That is a big deal. Because it's nice that they can see somebody who is like them overcoming. How does it feel to be a beacon of hope?

Jill Stone (35:52)

I find that, like. So I. I'm a lawyer, and I practiced for a long time, but I. I gave up practicing law when I realized that. That my help trying to help others in recovery or get into recovery is my passion. It's my jam, it's my life. It's the work. I want to leave to, you know, when. When I go someday. I want people to say, she helped others in recovery. That's all. And I want to be a source of hope for them that, like, life does not have to look the way they think it's going to, or maybe the examples that they've had in their lives of somebody who stopped drinking but didn't do anything else to change themselves and therefore are kind of what we call dry drunks, where they're just miserable, but they're not drinking, you know, so they change just that one thing. And I just want to show people and let people know that there is so much goodness in this life. I Will say this. Lastly, when I got sober in 2005, my kids were 10 and 7. And I kept thinking to myself, this was one of the biggest things I worried about. How am I not going to drink at my children's weddings? It was a mystery to me. I was like, I don't know. I mean, am I going to be able to stay sober up until then and then drink? Because, like, I'm not going to be able to not drink. Everybody drinks at weddings. That's what everybody does. My daughter got married in Charlevoix on August 3rd. I thank you. It was a beautiful wedding. I remember every second of it. I remember how she looked, I remember what she said to me. I remember their vows. I remember the dancing, I remember the speeches. I remember every. Nobody can take that from me. And certainly alcohol didn't, but because that I wouldn't. You could have paid me $10 million to offer you $10 million if you start drinking. Absolutely no way. There is no money that is worth me giving up the life I have today, which is an average life, which is just an everyday. But I like average because otherwise I get this and then I get this. I like this. And I'm just so grateful that that thought there's. My kids are 30 and 27 now. My son gets married in June and my daughter was married last year. And it's like, I can't wait to be sober at their weddings so that I can remember every moment of it. That's what matters to me.

Dr. Jamie Hope (38:17)

That sounds wonderful. I mean, you're a highly educated, incredible person. And so now so working at Maple Grove. So I, as a physician, I send patients there. This is an excellent. This is an excellent facility. It has helped people that I know. So there are people listening who either themselves are thinking, hey, I'd like to get help, or they have a loved one. So how can they navigate those steps to. How do you know when to go to AA or NA versus an inpatient? And how do people do that?

Jill Stone (38:49)

You know, insurance is obviously a big thing. Do people have the insurance to be able to get into treatment? So that's always like a question, you know, for people. Some people can't afford if they don't have the insurance that will pay for it. But AA is free, NA is free. You know, if you want to leave a dollar in the basket and I mean, that's fine. You don't have to. Smart Recovery is another program that is cognitive based, behavioral therapy based, CBT and REBT based. So it deals more with the thoughts lead to your feelings, your feelings drive your emotions and your emotions give you your results. So if you want different results, you're going to have to change your thinking, which is basically. I've also been a life coach where I've helped women to get sober outside of the. For someone who does not want to be in a 12 step program. So I have helped them get sober and that is basically exactly how I coach them is to realize that our thoughts, we are in control of our thoughts in such a level that people, people just think that thoughts just come into your head and then you're just. I have to deal with that thought now. No, we have the ability to decide what thoughts we're going to think. And as some a thought as simple as, you know, wow, a beer would really take the edge off right now. That thought right there could lead you back into drinking at these, these simple seeming thoughts that can take you back. And so thoughts, the, the thought feeling action cycle is so important for people to understand. So whether it's a smart recovery or an AA or an NA or a Dharma, there's a recovery dharma which is more meditation based. I'm a fan of 12 step programs. I think it's important. But I will say you do not have to believe in God to be in a 12 step AA or NA program. It is a higher power, something just that is not in you. You're not your own higher. The higher power doesn't reside within you. It's something external to you that can help you when you want to drink. Right? So like the for even though I was a believer in God when I got sober, that my biggest higher power in the first several years of my recovery was the fact that I would sit at a table with people, total strangers. And at the end of that meeting, I knew that I was going to be able to be sober for the rest of that day. Tomorrow's a new another story. It's a one day at a time program. But for today I heard what I needed to hear. I could hear from a group of strangers who had one common thing that I had both, you know, addiction. I could sit with a group of strangers who I did not know and get so much more out of sitting with my family who love and adore me and would do anything to help me through. Right? And they're the most supportive family ever. I still couldn't get from them what I get from a group of people who have addiction in common. It's the connection to others. It's the connection to people in recovery that Just try it. Come into AA if you're struggling, go to na. Just try to see, does this work for you? Does this fit for you? If you can go to treatment, it is. I mean, how often in this world do you get just. Can someone say or do you ever say to yourself, you know, I'm going to take the next 10 days or two weeks or even 28 days and I'm going to work only on me. When does that happen? Especially for women with children and everything. If you can get yourself into treatment because you know you have a problem, oh my God, I beg of you to do it. Because it is, it, it is, can be so life changing. But you have to do the work, right? The, the. We always say the program works. If you work it, you have to do the work of it. For, for people who also like, for people who have a loved one, there is Al Anon. That is a program that is a 12 step program for people who deal with, who love people in recovery or people in active addiction. That's another. But I, you know, my, I have a partner, Curtis Thurston. And I, we do, we both work at Maple Grove together, but we also work outside in the community. We have a cross addiction network.com which is where we go out and we connect people. Because connection is where you can get. You can all of a sudden say, I couldn't do this by myself, but with other people who understand me on this one level, I can do it with them because we stay sober, I drink, we stay sober, I get drunk. Right. It's about taking yourself out of that isolation and feeling very alone and going in where people understand you. And that is true for family members as well. Because a program like Al Anon are all people who are struggling in their own lives because of someone they love in addiction. And so that can be the connection for them. But there are lots of programs. Reach out to treatment centers if you're a family member and find out, even if your family member doesn't go there, find out what programs are available for family members. Because I know a lot of them have family therapy, family work that they do. There are, there are so many tools out there that can be used for both addicts and family members alike. Don't be shy. Start calling around.

Dr. Jamie Hope (44:03)

Yeah, and it's. You're right that, that we versus I. So I know that there's somebody who is listening to this right now that is either questioning their own or they see a loved one kind of self destructing and they do feel alone. There's that reaching out to those places. Do your research. We've got, you know, the support hub at Genius Recovery, which is a connection and education. Yes, we have. And that, that's online. So some people need something local. Like you talked about going to an in person meeting. I know there's tons of zoom meetings and online meetings, but I think there's something about, you know, some in person resources as well.

Jill Stone (44:38)

Absolutely. And don't be shy just like that. You know, the most you can get is. If you call around asking, the most you can get is, oh, I'm sorry, we don't have that program. There's a lot of. There's so many resources out there and there are so many people in recovery like me and other people that I spend time in recovery with who are here to help people. Like, that's all I want. If I can give hope to a family member, if I can give hope to a person in recovery. This does not have to be your life forever. You have to do the work. But your life can be something you never in your wildest dreams imagined. You just have to take the substance out of your, out of your body that you think is the answer, but really is the problem. Right? Like, and, and we always say drinking alcoholism or, or drinking too much. It is not a drinking disease. It is a thinking disease. The drinking is the coping mechanism we use for not knowing how to manage our own emotions and our own lives. Okay, so like once you realize that it's a thinking disease and like it's my thoughts are what's keeping me stuck every day of my life. And that's when you won't have to turn to it because you're doing the work to change your thoughts. And, and it's hard work, but it is amazing work. You do not have to be a slave to your emotions. You just don't.

Dr. Jamie Hope (46:03)

I mean this, I can't even tell you how impactful this is. There are ways to navigate this. It's not as, as scary as people think. You, I mean, you have to do the work. Right? You can't expect to have a six pack abs if you're not going to do a single setup.

Jill Stone (46:14)

That's right.

Dr. Jamie Hope (46:15)

Like, you have to have realistic expectations, but there, there are ways to navigate it. And the messages I'm hearing from you are there is help, there is community. Don't try to do this alone and work on that underlying emotion. And you're not going to spend the rest of your life white knuckling and just waiting for the next drink that's right.

Jill Stone (46:34)

I'll mention one on one video that is on YouTube and you may have heard of it. It's a guy named Johann Hari. He's written a lot of books on, on addiction and connection and all that. And he has a YouTube video video called everything you know about addiction is wrong. And the whole premise of it is that the opposite of addiction is not recovery. The opposite of addiction is connection. And the reason I stay sober is because I stay connected to everyone who all of my friends who are in recovery who I didn't know before, but now they are just my closest, some of my closest friends in the world. It's connecting with others. There is a strength in connection that it's almost. You just have to see it and be part of it to believe it. How, how, how it keeps me sober every single day because I connect with others in recovery. Wow.

Dr. Jamie Hope (47:28)

Incredible. I mean, you, you've heard the top insights. Everybody who's listening, you've heard the takeaways. There is going to be just a plethora of resources in the show notes for this one in particular. You know, instead of, you know, a smarter goals thing, this is where you really need to get connected. So I'm going to share with you how you can find Jill, if you're looking for a coach there, you know people who need more direct and specific help. Some links to AA N A al anon Genius recovery, smart recovery. You know, all of these things. This is going to be kind of a different type of ending because we're just going to lay out all of these things. There are so many things available and the most important thing to keep is hope.

Jill Stone (48:09)

There is always hope. Always. Your. Your podcast is so perfectly named. Your name is perfectly named.

Dr. Jamie Hope (48:16)

Thank you. And, well, and you're like, like I said, you're a beacon of hope because you show us that it is possible. A joyous and happy and free thing. So, Jill, thank you so much for sharing your experience, strength and hope. I know that this is going to help a lot of people today. Thank you so much.

Jill Stone (48:33)

Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Dr. Jamie Hope (48:36)

Thank you for tuning in to Navigating Hope with me, Dr. Jamie Hope. It has been an honor to navigate the realms of health and wellness with you today. Remember, in the journey toward a healthier life, knowledge is your compass. If you enjoyed our time together, please share like and subscribe. Subscribe to Navigating Hope. Join us next week where we'll continue to empower your health journey, arming you with the wisdom to navigate life's challenges. And keep the emergency room in your rearview mirror.