You Might Also Like: Via Podcast

Summary

Summary of "You Might Also Like: Via Podcast" – May 10, 2025

Hosted by Michelle Donati and Middy Hicks, with guest Dylan Thuras

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Introduction to Land Art

In this engaging episode of the VIA Podcast presented by AAA Mountain West Group, hosts Michelle Donati and Middy Hicks delve into the fascinating world of land art with guest Dylan Thuras, co-founder of Atlas Obscura. Land art, distinct from traditional gallery-based art, involves creating monumental artworks integrated into natural landscapes, often in remote locations. Dylan introduces the concept, highlighting its emergence in the late 1960s and 1970s as a movement centered around sculptural creations using natural materials like dirt, rocks, and cement.

Double Negative by Michael Heizer

Dylan takes listeners on a virtual journey to Double Negative, a renowned land art piece by Michael Heizer located near Las Vegas, Nevada. Described as a monumental work spanning a mile and a half long and half a mile wide, it was officially completed in 2022 after over five decades in the making. Dylan shares his personal experience visiting the site, humorously recounting the challenges of navigating the rugged terrain in a cramped rental car stocked with jalapeño-flavored chips and water. He remarks,

“It’s almost like a testament to the futility of man. This is the barest little wisp of a thing” (04:25).

Spiral Jetty by Robert Smithson

Transitioning to another iconic piece, Dylan discusses Spiral Jetty by Robert Smithson situated in Utah's Great Salt Lake. Often hailed as the "godfather" of land art, Spiral Jetty is a gigantic spiral of rocks that interacts dynamically with its environment, sometimes submerged and other times visible, depending on the lake's water levels. Dylan emphasizes the ephemeral nature of such works, noting:

“These artists knew this art was gonna be ephemeral... it might not be there long” (08:26).

Nancy Holt's Sun Tunnels

Shifting focus to Nancy Holt, Dylan highlights her masterpiece, Sun Tunnels, also located in Utah. Unlike Heizer's aggressive earth-moving, Holt's approach is more harmonious and reflective, aiming to enhance the landscape rather than alter it drastically. Sun Tunnels consists of four giant concrete cylinders arranged in a cross pattern, each with aligning holes that capture astronomical events like solstices. Dylan explains:

“Her work was about giving people windows to make that connection” (11:29).

Walter De Maria's Lightning Field

The discussion then moves to Walter De Maria's Lightning Field in New Mexico, another monumental land art installation. Dylan paints a vivid picture of the site, describing it as an extensive grid of polished metal poles set against a vast desert backdrop. These poles reflect the sky during sunrise and sunset, creating mesmerizing visual effects. Occasionally, lightning storms illuminate the field, adding a dramatic natural spectacle. Dylan shares his enthusiasm:

“It would be an amazing place to set a horror film. Genuinely so good” (13:05).

James Turrell's Roden Crater

Dylan introduces listeners to James Turrell's Roden Crater, an ambitious project transforming an extinct volcano in Arizona into a massive observatory. Turrell, often classified as a "mound builder," focuses on the interplay of light and space. The crater is designed to facilitate immersive experiences with the sky, manipulating natural light to alter visitors' perceptions. Dylan reveals his excitement about its completion:

“Everyone is waiting for Roden Crater to open” (24:33).

The Unique Experience of Visiting Land Art Sites

A recurring theme in the conversation is the transformative journey associated with visiting these land art installations. The remoteness and scale of the sites compel visitors to disconnect from modern life, fostering a profound connection with nature and the artworks themselves. Dylan advocates for the authentic, in-person experience, arguing that photographs fail to capture the true essence and grandeur of these pieces.

Personal Reflections and Anecdotes

Throughout the episode, personal anecdotes enrich the discussion. Dylan humorously shares his struggles with the logistics of visiting remote sites, such as dealing with rental car malfunctions and limited access. The hosts contribute by expressing their newfound appreciation for land art, with Michelle declaring herself "a believer" and Middy playfully linking the experience to roadside attractions.

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Notable Quotes:

• Dylan Thuras on Michael Heizer's vision:

  “They are organized right across from each other. You can almost see, like, a curtain or a wall or a kind of thing that could slot into that space” (05:50).

• On the ephemeral nature of Spiral Jetty:

  “The intent was to kind of, like, make a monumental thing in nature and then just watch nature consume it” (07:24).

• Describing Roden Crater as a "sky space":

  “Rodent Crater is not far from Flagstaff, Arizona. So it's like he thought it be done in the 90s, then 2011, and then 2015” (23:56).

• On the necessity of experiencing land art in person:

  “You have never experienced a work of art like this. And the journey of getting to them, that drive, that remoteness, that isolation, that desolation... is part of the work” (27:41).

Conclusion

This episode of the VIA Podcast offers a deep dive into the captivating realm of land art, showcasing how artists like Michael Heizer, Robert Smithson, Nancy Holt, Walter De Maria, and James Turrell have redefined artistic expression by merging it with the natural world. Through insightful discussions and personal experiences, Dylan Thuras eloquently conveys the profound impact and enduring allure of these monumental creations, inspiring listeners to embark on their own journeys to witness these masterpieces firsthand.

Transcript

[Michelle Donati]

Welcome to the VIA podcast presented by AAA Mountain West Group. On this episode, you'll find out what made many say this.

[Middy Hicks]

And it also sounds like the start of a horror movie or a psychological thriller.

[Dylan Thuras]

Lightning Field would be an amazing place to set a horror film. Genuinely so good.

[Middy Hicks]

And you'll find out what made Michelle say this.

[Michelle Donati]

And good thing they have explosives.

[Dylan Thuras]

Obviously they have their art TNT with them. Yeah.

[Michelle Donati]

That is very teasy.

[Middy Hicks]

Is it?

[Michelle Donati]

Yeah. On today's episode of the Via podcast, we're talking to Dylan Thuras and he's no stranger here.

[Middy Hicks]

We talked to him last season about roadside attractions.

[Michelle Donati]

Dylan is the co founder of Atlas Obscura, which is a digital travel magazine. I get their emails every morning and it is one of the things I look forward to reading every day. He's also co authored several books, including one that sits proudly on my kids bookshelf.

[Middy Hicks]

And he's the host of the Atlas Obscura podcast. So, Michelle, what are we talking about with Dylan today?

[Michelle Donati]

Land art.

[Middy Hicks]

Okay, Land art. That sounds interesting. Dylan, welcome back to the Via podcast.

[Dylan Thuras]

Hello. Hi, Mindy. I hear you just came back from a big trip, right? Crazy big trip.

[Middy Hicks]

Yeah. You know what? I just got back from Taiwan. It was incredible. I had a chance to check out the Lantern festival. But now I'm back and I'm ready to get into this conversation about land art, which is totally new for me. Can you tell us what land art is?

[Dylan Thuras]

It is an art movement that really started in the late 60s, 1970s. It is a series of physical places. When I say an art movement, people might be thinking of paintings in a gallery. This is not that. This is a sculptural art movement built around creating gigantic works of art in usually the desert somewhere, often in the kind of southwest and west of the United States. But these are pieces of art built out of dirt, rocks, sometimes cement. There's one piece of land art built out of the absence of dirt. It's a style of art that's entirely place specific. If you want to see a piece of land art, you gotta go to the art. The art is not coming to you. It is kind of a wild adventure to see these works of art, which I really enjoy. Can I tell you about a specific piece of land art?

[Michelle Donati]

Okay, tell us about a piece of land art you've visited.

[Dylan Thuras]

Yes. Okay. So I was in Las Vegas and I'm not like a big gambler, so I was like looking for things to do and I. I realized that about two hours outside of Vegas, there is a very famous Piece of land art called Double Negative by an artist named Michael Heiser. And so I should say, like, these artists all think in epic timescales. Heizer has been working on maybe the most monumental piece of land art ever created called City since 1970, and I believe it officially finished in 2022. So, like, it's a mile and a half long and a half mile wide, located in central eastern Nevada out in the middle of nowhere. It will be a piece of art that exists in 2,000 years. Like, all other art will be gone. Mona Lisa will be gone. All this other stuff will be dust. And this will exist because of the way it's being created, as giant piles of packed earth. This stuff lasts for millennia. When aliens come in tens of thousands of years and they look, they're going to be like, what great ancient civilization built this thing? And you're going to say, well, some guy named Michael Heiser is really into pushing dirt around.

[Michelle Donati]

I love that.

[Dylan Thuras]

Anyway, Michael Heiser, think of this cowboy figure, kind of swaggering, 70s masculine artist, right? And he created this work called Double Negative. To get to it, I had a tiny little rental car. So I'm driving.

[Michelle Donati]

What kind of car did you have? Because I need to picture you in this car, Dylan, and what snacks did you have in the car? We need to know these things.

[Dylan Thuras]

Like a Jetta, it feels like it's going to blow away in the wind. Got this tiny car, a couple bags of chips, some water. Normally, you know, my little, my little jalapeno flavored chips, I'm just snacking, I'm driving.

[Michelle Donati]

I'm a jalapeno flavored chip person too.

[Dylan Thuras]

The best. So I drive the two hours out, getting on more remote roads and then dirt roads. And then it's like very quickly, there are no roads at all anymore. Driving this tiny rental car on the top of a mesa. And which being a mesa, it means that if you drive over the edge, you're. It's silver, right? There's all these huge boulders everywhere that I'm trying not to get stuck under the car. And then when I return the car, it had a little light on it that was like, something's happened and I.

[Michelle Donati]

Just dropped it off and you ran away.

[Middy Hicks]

Example number one, have the right vehicle.

[Dylan Thuras]

You might want something more robust than what I have. So I get out here and it's this incredibly beautiful epic southwest landscape. And then carved into the edge of this mesa at two separate points where they're pointing each other. Like, imagine kind of a U shape, you could make A straight line across the U of this mesa, okay? At either edge of that straight line, a notch has been carved into the mesa. A huge amount of earth has been excavated out of the mesa using both, like, tools and tractors, but also, like explosives. Lots of dynamite was used to do this. And these two notches point at each other. They're about the width of an alleyway, and they extend deep, kind of into the edge of this mesa, creating this absent space. And when it was made, they were very neat. It's old now, so they're less neat. It's kind of crumbled, so it looks, you know, a little less sharp. But the idea was that when you look across, it almost creates, like, in that negative space, like a shape, because they're organized right across from each other. You can almost see, like, a. Like a curtain or a wall or a kind of thing that could slot into that space. But the thing that I thought was so interesting about this thing was that it took forever to do this. They were using dynamite. They're these minuscule little nothings. They might as well be a line in the dirt or something, because set against the scale of the mesa itself and the natural landscape, it's almost like a testament to the futility of man. This is the barest little wisp of a thing. And so that's what I mean when I say, like, what you end up seeing is the landscape itself. The piece is a way to see the landscape.

[Middy Hicks]

I can think of a million things to do in Vegas, and this is not one of them. So how do you get into this? Is there some sort of, I don't know, secret society? What's the deal here?

[Dylan Thuras]

I like land art. I wasn't alone on that mesa. I got up there, and there was a couple other people there to see. Double negative, too. It's like a pilgrimage for a certain kind of person. It's a very American movement. It's got this kind of cowboy, and I hate to say it, but a kind of a pretty masculine energy. So picture, like, Andy Warhol making a thousand copies of the same image with slight variations. And this kind of pop iconography. This was a, like, inversion of that idea. They're like, you want art? You want real art? I'm gonna get some dynamite.

[Middy Hicks]

I'll show you art.

[Dylan Thuras]

Yeah.

[Middy Hicks]

At the same time, let's blow up some stuff.

[Dylan Thuras]

Right around this period, there was another monumental work being made called Spiral Jetty out in Utah on the Great Salt Lake. Robert Smithson and Spiral Jetty are often considered the kind of godfather or grandfather of land art. Also very hard to get to. You're really in the middle of nowhere. People are constantly, like, breaking down and having to be rescued. Land art comes with risk. It's a gigantic spiral of rocks going out into the edge of the Great Salt Lake. And it's funny because it often will spend many years submerged, so you can't see it. And then it will sort of emerge later. And like, all these artists knew this art was gonna be ephemeral like that, that it was gonna be a function of the landscape, and that it might not be there long. And so spiral jetty is like. It's funny. Cause talking about preservation of some of this art is very complicated. Cause, like, foundations, like, we gotta preserve it. It's so important to the movement of art. And then other people are like, that's not. That was never the intent. The intent was to kind of, like, make a monumental thing in nature and then just watch nature consume it.

[Middy Hicks]

So who are some other artists in this movement?

[Dylan Thuras]

I'll talk about Nancy Holt for a moment. Smithson, who made Spiral Jetty, died quite young in a plane crash. Oh, he died in 1973. So, like, very early in the land art movement. He was married to Nancy Holt. She continued on this tradition of land art after his. His death. She brought something really interesting to the land art movement, maybe as a counter to Michael Heiser. She saw the environmental piece of it. She was interested in the preservation of. And. And so her big, biggest, most well known piece is called Sun Tunnels. If you saw it accidentally, you'd assume it was the leftovers of a construction project.

[Middy Hicks]

Okay.

[Dylan Thuras]

You would just not even look twice. It's four giant concrete cylinders, hollow in the middle, like pipes. Imagine giant concrete pipes set in the Utah desert in a kind of a cross shape. The pipes have little holes. Holes in them. And the holes in the sides of the pipe align with astronomical moments throughout the calendar, like the solstices. So your experience of sun tunnels is wholly dependent on the day you're seeing it, the time of day you're seeing it, where you're positioning yourself in relationship to where the sun is in the sky. And so, again, all these works are so in conversation with the landscape and nature around them.

[Michelle Donati]

Why do you think so many of these, including all the ones we're talking about today? Why do you think they're located in the Southwest? How did the Southwest become basically a canvas for land art in this movement?

[Dylan Thuras]

It's. It. There's a few reasons. There was a lot of land available cheaply. To work with out in the southwest so you could get a huge chunk of land, kind of do whatever you wanted on it, and you didn't cost you that much. There was not going to be a lot of regulatory barriers. There was not a significant price barrier. So that was piece a piece of it. But I also think land art, by definition, is in conversation with the landscape around it. When you see a piece of land art, like, it is really woven into the landscape, Focusing your attention on the landscape around it.

[Michelle Donati]

Can I ask a question about Nancy Holt? What was her relationship to the southwest and in terms of this work, sun tunnels? How does it compare to Double Negative?

[Dylan Thuras]

Think about the landscape as this dynamic experience without, like, disturbing it. You know, she was not interested in blowing stuff up.

[Michelle Donati]

We're enhancing it. Right. And it sounds like she was really trying to bring the space between land and space together through these portals in Sun Tunnels. What do you think she was trying to say through this piece of land art?

[Dylan Thuras]

She wanted people to engage with the dynamism of the natural world around them. Her works were tools to help do that. Her inspiration was basically like, the sky, the moon, the stars, that this is a deep connection that exists in all of us. Her work was about giving people windows to make that connection. So we have Michael Heiser on one end, Nancy Holt on the other. Maybe we should talk about Walter De Maria, another famous land artist, and I think in some ways splits the difference.

[Middy Hicks]

Okay.

[Dylan Thuras]

His most famous piece is called the lightning field.

[Michelle Donati]

Ooh.

[Dylan Thuras]

And if you search images of the lightning field, it's very dramatic. You can actually find images of lightning striking it. But I have a friend who got to go to the lightning field. Very small numbers of people each year get to actually go see the lightning field because you basically have to, like, apply what?

[Michelle Donati]

Oh, it's so. It's very exclusive. It sounds almost like how you have to get a permit to go to Supai Falls.

[Dylan Thuras]

Yes, exactly like that.

[Middy Hicks]

Are you signing over your, like, death rights in case lightning actually strikes? And.

[Dylan Thuras]

Yes. Yes.

[Michelle Donati]

I thought you were gonna.

[Middy Hicks]

I was kidding.

[Dylan Thuras]

You probably do actually. You probably do have to sign something. But, like, they pick you up, they. They meet you in a specific location, but it. Not the lightning field. The location of the lightning field is basically a secret, A closely guarded secret. They put you in these vans and they drive you out there. You don't know where you're going, and you have to stay overnight.

[Middy Hicks]

And it also sounds like the start of a horror movie or a psychological thriller.

[Dylan Thuras]

Lightning field would be an amazing place to set a horror film. Genuinely so good. You go out there and there's this little cabin. And what it is, is in this enormous grid on the landscape, perfectly spaced grid of silver poles, metal poles, polished metal poles, and they are spaced in an exact grid. And their tops are at the exact same level, no matter where their bottoms are. Right? So there's some parts of the landscape where it gets hilly and they get shorter, and there's other parts of the landscape where they get taller. So it's a perfectly flat surface of all of these poles. You're in this kind of forest of metal. This weird kind of sense of, like, entering the matrix, you know, where you're just like. Okay. The second crazy thing is sometimes, not often, big storms really do roll through the area and lightning really does hit the lightning field. They are all big metal poles in the middle of a field. They do attract lightning. So occasionally you'd see this spectacular show of lightning striking. But the real experience happens at sunset and sunrise.

[Middy Hicks]

Okay, why is that?

[Michelle Donati]

Yeah, what happens?

[Dylan Thuras]

Because all of the poles are perfectly reflective. And so when you look at them, what you see reflected in each pole, depending on where you're standing, is the sunset or sunrise. And it creates this almost like mirror image of what's behind you being reflected back on every single one of these perfectly shiny poles in the desert. So it creates this kind of.

[Middy Hicks]

You know what? This reminds one of those, like, geoprism toys. The one you used to put up to your eye.

[Dylan Thuras]

Yeah. Like a kaleidoscope kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michelle Donati]

Okay. Mitti, how young are you?

[Dylan Thuras]

Wait a sec. Kaleidoscopes still exist? My children have kaleidoscopes. Hang on. No, but, yeah, it is this surreal experience to watch the sun come up and be reflected by these, like, highly reflective metal surfaces in this beautiful natural landscape. So that's somewhere in between Nancy and Michael Heiser. It is certainly adding to the landscape, but it is a kind of. It's a more nuanced touch. And again, it's really about being in communication with the sky, the stars.

[Michelle Donati]

Okay. They cannot guarantee lightning.

[Dylan Thuras]

No.

[Middy Hicks]

Oh, I like that statistic. Because I don't want to see lightning.

[Dylan Thuras]

The sunrise and sunset experience of lightning field is, I think, what most people are there to see and experience. It's this bizarre juxtaposition of this perfectly symmetrical field of poles and this natural landscape that they're in.

[Middy Hicks]

But it sounds like you have to apply. So how did you get your application approved? Is it expensive?

[Dylan Thuras]

There's a long wait list. My friend went to Lightning Field as part of a graduate school art program.

[Michelle Donati]

So very cool.

[Dylan Thuras]

And, you know, so they sort of prioritize younger artists who are studying to come and see this. It's about $300 per person per night.

[Middy Hicks]

Oh, I think that's worth it.

[Dylan Thuras]

But that's like. It's like a medium fancy hotel. You know what I mean? That's like a fancy hotel night, except you're having, like, one of the true sort of truly unique experiences to be had. Yeah.

[Michelle Donati]

Okay, so about Walter de Maria. Did he have some sort of connection to the Southwest in this landscape?

[Dylan Thuras]

I mean, it's interesting, the connection with the Southwest again. Walter de Mario is from California, but he spent most of his early art career, like in New York hanging out with John Cage making weird music art. So he was hanging out with, like, Lou Reed in the Velvet Underground. And it's funny because these works have become these kind of monumental American things, but they were mostly made by, like, weird art kids on the East Coast. There was something, I think, of a mythological journey for these young artists. They were kind of like, what would it look like if I made art in a totally different way? And so they're just like giant undertakings.

[Michelle Donati]

One thing I read about the Lightning Field is you are not allowed to photograph it. Is that true? And why is that?

[Dylan Thuras]

A lot of these works are meant to be experienced in situ. They don't work as photographs. I have photographs of double negative, but it just looks like some weird dirt holes. You know what I mean? It doesn't look like anything. You have to be there. And you can look at photos of Spiral jetty online and get a feel for it. You go, oh, yeah, cool. It's like a big spiral. Neat, you know?

[Middy Hicks]

Yeah.

[Dylan Thuras]

When you're there and you've driven four hours across the desert and there's no one for miles, you see the scale of it in person and you're like, God, this is monumental. A photograph doesn't do it. And so I think Lightning Field was very explicit about it, which is like, don't even try. Stop. Don't take photos. You gotta come.

[Michelle Donati]

Do not. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Do not bring your cameras, no cell phones to the Lightning Field.

[Dylan Thuras]

And like, in a world where every single thing is intermediated, like the power of an experience, like, that's pretty high. It's like, yeah, I agree. I'm into it.

[Michelle Donati]

This is good stuff. There's more of the VA podcast to come after this short message.

[Maggie]

Hi, Maggie here, your vacation obsessed AAA travel advisor. Listening to this episode, I'm ready to plan my next road trip. Driving a convertible through the Southwest to see some of this epic land art. But maybe the great museums of Europe are more your style. My advice? Consider booking a tour. A guided tour makes everything from planning to navigating way easier. Tours also save you time, letting you bypass lines and hassle. AAA Travel can arrange tours in the most popular museums in the world. You'll be able to skip the line like you're a VIP at the Sistine Chapel, the Louvre, and other hotspots. It's amazing. It's yet another example of what AAA means when we say it's a membership for life. Learn more by visiting AAA.com viaPodcast Thanks for sticking around.

[Michelle Donati]

Let's get back into it on the via podcast. Okay, Dylan, so I know from my research going into this episode that there is new land art that is being made right now in Arizona. Yes, it is getting a lot of buzz. Can you tell us about it?

[Dylan Thuras]

So the artist is, I would argue, the greatest living American artist.

[Michelle Donati]

What?

[Dylan Thuras]

I would argue that he.

[Michelle Donati]

Hot take by Dylan Ferris. You heard it here first.

[Middy Hicks]

You heard it here first.

[Dylan Thuras]

His name is James Turrell. He actually got the National Medal of Arts from Obama in 2014.

[Middy Hicks]

Oh, so this guy is known.

[Michelle Donati]

Yeah. James Turrell has some famous fans as well, like Beyonce.

[Middy Hicks]

Beyonce.

[Dylan Thuras]

He is well known. He's a very. He's a famous artist, James Tirrell. His work has to do with how we experience light and color.

[Middy Hicks]

Okay.

[Dylan Thuras]

He's very famous for a series of works called Sky Spaces. They are basically little spaces where there is basically a cutout in the roof where you can see the sky.

[Middy Hicks]

Okay.

[Dylan Thuras]

And you might think, like, okay, who cares? It's a skylight. But he also does other things. Often that cutout is in conversation with lights that he has installed that slowly change the color space while you're, like, also looking at the sky. Our sense of color is extremely relative and subjective. So if you are looking at a very bright yellow light for a long time and then are shown a bright blue light, your eyes will have a very different sense of those things having been exposed to them in relationship to each other. And then he's putting in this third piece of conversation, which is the sky. I stood under one of these sky spaces in Texas. It's on a university campus in Texas. You're looking up and the sky will go from black to green to bright blue, all in relationship with how this other light is sort of Adjusting your perception of that space.

[Middy Hicks]

That's awesome.

[Dylan Thuras]

They're really amazing. He also has some other sort of color spaces where you. There is nothing but the color fields that he's creating. And so these are immersive spaces. There was one in Vegas that's now closed, that was in the basement of a Louis Vuitton store. So you, like, went to the Louis Vuitton store and you were like, hello, I'm here to see the art exhibit. And then they, like, take you down in this little elevator. There was a person down there in, like, almost like a flight attendant suit with, like, white gloves.

[Middy Hicks]

And they'd be, like, awesome.

[Dylan Thuras]

Come stand here. Don't walk forward or you're going to fall, because it's actually. There's like a. A kind of a hidden ledge, which helps makes this space look basically like an infinite. You just look at this color.

[Michelle Donati]

I had. So I had a friend tell me about the experience in the Las Vegas Louis Vuitton store. And I tried to see it, but the wait list was capped. Oh, it was so. And I had no idea who James Turrell was at the time. It was just like, hey, you're coming to Vegas. I recommend doing this. It's really cool. I wasn't able to do it, and so I had no idea that that was the same thing until you brought it up.

[Dylan Thuras]

Now, I got in by pure luck. I didn't register early enough, but I called and said, if there's any cancellations, give me a call back. And there happened to be a cancellation while I was there. I got to see it. I was so excited. I love James Terrell. He's one of my favorite working artists, as I said. And so, amidst all of this big land art movement, spiral jetty, lightning field, all this kind of stuff, James Turrell buys himself a volcano.

[Middy Hicks]

Most people want islands, a big house.

[Dylan Thuras]

And it's an extinct volcano. It's not gonna blow up, but it's the cone of a volcano. So imagine a huge mound, and at the center, a big depression where the lava would have come out. He has been working on this. He's now quite old. He's 81 years old, and he has been working on Rodent Crater. Rodent Crater is not far from Flagstaff, Arizona. So it's like he thought it be done in the 90s, then 2011, and then 2015. And I should say, just to be fair, everyone kind of puts Turrell in the land art category. He doesn't. He says he is not an earthworks artist or a land artist. He calls himself a mound builder. He says, I make things that take you up into the sky. But it's not about the landforms. I'm working to bring celestial objects like the sun and the moon and into the spaces we inhabit. I apprehend light. I make events that shape or contain light.

[Michelle Donati]

So it's safe to say that he is more than just a mound builder.

[Dylan Thuras]

Yeah, capital. Capital. A artist in the best meaning of that. So this is going to be his great last monumental work. You are going to be able to go into this through, like, a tunnel into this giant crater. And it will basically be a version of one of these sky spaces just done on a scale of unbelievable monumental epicness. Everyone is waiting for Rodan Crater to open.

[Michelle Donati]

When do you think it will open and what's. You have to predict?

[Dylan Thuras]

Yeah, I think it's very expensive to retrofit an extinct volcano. Even digging the tunnel, I think, is like a crazy, monumental work. I don't know. I am gonna guess sometime before. They keep saying soon. Sometime before 2030. And I mean, I don't know that people think about this. Like, it's something I've only realized kind of recently. But that landscape is like. It's this crazy collection of volcanic cinder cones. It's like, really? Why? It looks like some crazy Game of Thrones landscape. Like, it's so dramatic. All these old extinct volcanoes. It's a very distinct part of the American landscape.

[Michelle Donati]

Well, it's not open to the public yet, and hopefully it will be soon. You can see the vision for it online.

[Dylan Thuras]

You can.

[Michelle Donati]

It does remind me of where a sci fi film would be based. I don't know. It just has this very futuristic, another world kind of aesthetic.

[Dylan Thuras]

Yeah.

[Michelle Donati]

How do you think if this were the base of a sci fi film, how do you think the road and crater would be used in that film?

[Dylan Thuras]

I'm gonna give you my pitch.

[Middy Hicks]

Okay.

[Dylan Thuras]

You know, we set up electronic systems to listen for alien signals, but a couple of young aspiring land artists go to Rodin Crater to commune with this epic piece. James Turrell has died. They're doing this road trip in honor. They're going to all the land art across the southwest. They start to get creepy vibes at, you know, lightning field. Right. It's like they're getting spooked out. They're alone in these remote places, and they go to Roden Crater and they are looking up at the sky and they notice slowly that the stars are changing in front of their eyes. And they realize that what they're seeing is the coming approach of alien ships landing out here in the Southwest. And they have to use survival skills based on land art to escape and fight back.

[Michelle Donati]

And good thing they have explosives.

[Dylan Thuras]

That's right. Of course. That's right. Obviously, they have their art TNT with them. Yeah.

[Michelle Donati]

I would totally watch that movie. You've made me excited. I'm like, this needs to happen, Dylan.

[Dylan Thuras]

This is not. It's. All right. Good. Thank you.

[Middy Hicks]

This reminds me when we talked about Roadside Attractions, and there was an attraction that never got finished. I am not saying I want this to happen to Mr. Terrell, but I want him to make it to the end. And this is giving me those vibes from Roadside Attraction.

[Dylan Thuras]

It was supposed to open in 2024. Like, but he's going to finish it before he dies. I feel confident about this. You do? Terrell is. He's not going to let me down.

[Middy Hicks]

This is a subculture of both people who appreciate art and also for travelers. So can you just please tell us, why is it worth possibly messing up your Volkswagen Jetta? Why is it worth not having cell phone service and having to walk somewhere to call a friend that you're stranded to see these works of art in the Southwest?

[Dylan Thuras]

You have never experienced a work of art like this. And the journey of getting to them, that drive, that remoteness, that isolation, that desolation that is. That is part of the work. That is and essence of the work. These journeys are little adventures that you will be telling people about for years. They force you into the mindset the land artist was trying to get you in, which is, we exist in a truly epic landscape, and we are small bits of dust against that world. And there is something deeply powerful, maybe frightening, but certainly awe inspiring to have that experience. These works of art are a way to get there.

[Middy Hicks]

Is the experience better with jalapeno chips or.

[Dylan Thuras]

Yeah, of course. Obviously, 100%.

[Michelle Donati]

Everything's better with jalapeno chips.

[Dylan Thuras]

Maybe. Yeah. That's not even a question.

[Michelle Donati]

Yeah, obviously, Dylan, coming into this conversation, I was like, I don't know if I would ever visit any of these places. Like, you've made me a believer. I'm a believer. I'm like, let's go. I don't know about the lightning field, but the other ones, I mean, even the lightning field, I feel like, would be really, really cool.

[Middy Hicks]

Dylan, that's a big feat because she doesn't camp but will go to land art. I mean, who knew?

[Dylan Thuras]

They do have a little cabin at Lightning Field, so you'll be indoors. Well, this was so fun. I love sharing the gospel. I'm a big fan of all these things.

[Middy Hicks]

Always fun talking to you.

[Dylan Thuras]

Likewise.

[Michelle Donati]

Thanks again for being on the podcast.

[Dylan Thuras]

Of course. Thanks for having me.

[Michelle Donati]

Mitty, We've reached your favorite part of every episode.

[Middy Hicks]

I hope it's letters from our AAA members.

[Michelle Donati]

Absolutely. AAA members are such smart travelers. We love hearing about their trips in the American West. This one is from AAA member Linda Shauhelp from California. Linda writes, we visited Robert Smithson's Spiral Jetty in Utah on a family road trip in August 2024. I'd heard about it and was curious and it was the top of my daughter in law's list of must see places. I love a spiral and an adventure and the shape and effort put into it are impressive. She continues that it's a rough drive to the spiral, so be sure to pack water and snacks on the way. Allow time for Golden Spike National Historic park, where you can learn about America's first transcontinental railroad. Everybody in our group enjoyed something there.

[Middy Hicks]

Thank you Linda. Seriously, we love hearing from our AAA.

[Michelle Donati]

Members and we want to hear from you too. Send us a note. You can email [e-mail] we love your feedback and you may hear your email on a future podcast.

[Middy Hicks]

The Via podcast is hosted by Michelle.

[Michelle Donati]

Donati and Middy Hicks executive producers Whitney Finuff, April Kilcrease and Dan Miller. Produced by Jason Jackson and Dave Beazing of Sound that Brands Discover more Places.

[Middy Hicks]

To travel in The west at AAA.com.

[Michelle Donati]

Via magazine is published by AAA Mountain West Group.

[Dylan Thuras]

The views and opinions expressed by podcast speakers and guests are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of AAA Mountain West Group or its personnel.