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- [00:00]
A
Have you seen me dice bag.
- [00:12]
B
The Grognard Files hello, my name is Dirk the Dice and this is the Grognard Files podcast where we talk bobbins about tabletop RPGs from back in the day and today I'm coming live from my den here in the heart of the north west of England. I'm completely and utterly surrounded by my stuff. On my right is the great library of RPGs and my grognard Files, and on my left is the ridiculous homemade shrine to the actor Caroline Munro. Or at least it was.
- [00:53]
C
Where is it?
- [00:55]
B
The den is in complete chaos. More than usual. I thought it would be a really good idea to take everything off one of my units of shelves in order to paint it. Everything is everywhere. I share the room with Henry the vacuum cleaner, who stares at me with thinly disguised contempt as there's a knot in his tube. No, I don't know how it happened either. I like to think I thrive in chaos. I just feel sorry for everyone else around me. This is a podcast all about chaos, and when we mention chaos in gaming, we all have a shared idea of what it means. It's not a lack of discipline with your paperwork, it's not some kind of primordial vacuum familiar from religious mythologies. No, the chaos we have in our heads is more terrifying, with tentacles and spiky bits and generally things going wrong. Last September I attended a series of seminars during a Games Workshop day at the Games center hosted by Manchester Metropolitan University. It was a fascinating day called Covering Many Different Cultures that revolve around Gaines Workshop, the Model Making, the Mythology, and the History of the Company. One of the talks that was held there was by this episode's guest. Thomas Rawlings has been a member of the Grog Squad for a long time and it was great to finally meet him in person. In December we were kindly offered a podcasting studio in Manchester's central library, which we promptly wrecked by knocking things off the wall, tampering with the equipment, and not following the very simple instructions that we were provided with. Thomas is writing a book all about the origins of Warhammer 40K, and his talk captured my attention as it was about how the aesthetic of Chaos has been developed through various iterations of the rulebooks of Warhammer and the development of the miniatures. Just Blivy, our resident rules lawyer, was with us too, and after it we headed to the pub to talk about all the aspects of of chaos in RPGs based on our experience of playing. The voices are isolated in the recording of the pub so you can't hear the bedlam that was taking place around us. I'll be back at the end with some parish notices. Okay, ramblers, let's get rambling Open box.
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C
Welcome to the room of role playing.
- [03:42]
A
Rambling.
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C
We're back in the podcast studio. I've got Blythe with me. Hello, Blythe.
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A
Hello, Doug.
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C
And I've got video games guru.
- [03:49]
D
Oh, I've not been described as a guru before, but we can go with that.
- [03:53]
A
Yeah.
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C
Hello, grunt squatter, Thomas Rowling. Hello there, Thomas. Hello.
- [03:58]
D
Yeah, it's a real pleasure to be with you both. Yeah, very exciting to be in the room of role playing.
- [04:02]
C
Rambling we are as well. I mean this is kind of cut it all aren't.
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A
It's got a little soundproof things that I knocked off the wall. I weren't attached. Came answer to libraries listening. I've not damaged the room. Not attached.
- [04:13]
D
Are we going to be kicked out mid podcast? Yeah, I think for vandalizing the room.
- [04:18]
C
Vandalizing the room and a library fine issued. Thanks for joining us, Thomas. And I really wanted to explore you because you're a gamer, I'd say a thought leader on gaming as well. Is that a grand title?
- [04:29]
D
Wow. I'm accruing the grand titles. I mean, you know, I'm flattered, you know, like, like, I mean, I work in video games and I've worked in video games now for, you know, nearly 30 years. I think about 27 years. So I've been in the games industry as a video game developer for a long time and obviously I've been a gamer as in, you know, playing RPGs and war gaming and video games for obviously way longer than that. You know, the first time I tried making a video game was in a. In a ZX81. So even predating the ZX Spectrum, if you remember those which came with a massive 16k of ram pack, you know, so obviously you explained to developers today like, oh yeah, when you had those old computers back then and you know, I remember it that you come to a library like this. I used to go to the library by me and get a book out where you'd have the code for the game and you'd type the code in yourself, play the game. And then of course they had no hard drive. So when you switch the computer off, that was it. It was just gone.
- [05:29]
C
A single shake of the run pack could cause it all to stop or.
- [05:33]
D
Yeah, or that whole thing where they get games on cassettes. So you didn't want anyone Walking near the cassette player while it was loading the game into the speccy.
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A
And you would. Yeah. And it would fail to load sometimes. And you would listen to the weird sounds it would make. And I remember, I know this is my imagination, or not thinking, oh, this will work. Yeah, it's making that noise now. This one will work. Or it made another noise. Oh, it's gonna know. It's gonna go.
- [05:54]
D
Well, it's this weird echo. Cause we met when I was at that Warhammer conference. And I do a lot of. Warhammer 40,000 is both a big fan and big interest of mine. And within the narrative setting there, they've got the tech priests. And the idea is, in the far, far future, they don't really know how the technology works. So they know. They switch it on, they press this button and they say these certain prayers and they light the incense candle. It just kind of works. And we laugh about it a bit. I was like, but actually, those are lo. Those games in those early days, we'd have your own routines, like you. You've got to plug the cable in this way and you've got to have rewound the cassette fully. And, you know, if you don't press it at the right, you know, and whether or not any of that worked, I don't know.
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A
But it felt like it worked.
- [06:34]
D
It did.
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A
In your imagination. This is how you do it. Yeah.
- [06:37]
C
You mentioned that you're a gamer as well. So we get into your video game experience, but just talk about what games you were playing back in the day and what you get into.
- [06:48]
D
So, I mean, I encountered. So I'd heard about these things called war gaming, and I didn't really know what they were. And I went through this phase when I was really little. I had these little, you know, little like Airfix tanks and things like that that I was making, and then discovered there was some kind of games you could play with it. And that was really exciting idea, but I didn't know what they were. So I kind of made my own one with a couple of friends. And we had this. But it was this, that transition of, like, you're just playing a thing without any structural rules. And then suddenly the idea, actually, there's a structure to this that makes it really exciting. And then when I was probably aged about 10, 11, I think I discovered Dungeons and Dragons, a couple of the kids in a slightly older year. And it absolutely blew my mind. It was obviously a lot of people you talk to, that revelation of, I can't believe this exists. And then that was it. From then on, I was hopelessly enmeshed in gaming and nerd culture. So then after that, discovered Warhammer, discovered Warhammer and discovered Wargaming and BattleTech and things like that. And that was. There was no going back then.
- [07:53]
C
Was that concurrent with your interest in video games then? Was that like running alongside each other?
- [07:58]
D
Yeah, so I discovered tabletop stuff first and then video games came along later. But I was at an age where they were kind of broadly running in line with each other. So for me there was an enjoyment in both. So I think of a really early game that I played on the SEGA Master System game called Wonder Boy Monsterland. And one of the reasons I loved it is you picked up equipment, so as you went along, you accrued loot, which. Cause I played D and D, it was very D and D esque. It was this, you know, it had elements of that. And I was obviously always looking for games that gave me that same vibe, you know, that crossover vibe. So yeah, you know. Absolutely. And still to me to this day runs concurrently. I play war games, I play tabletop role playing games, I play video games. And to me they're all good fun. I do love them all.
- [08:50]
C
And I mentioned that you're a video games guru. So what does a video games guru do day to day?
- [08:57]
D
Well, so right now I've got quite a fancy title. I'm a vice president of a company based not far from where we are in Sheffield called Sumo Digital. And we're a big development studio that does a whole bunch of. So we provide development services to other companies. So we work on. So examples of teams within Sumo worked on games like Warframe, if you know those, they do a lot of stuff with Microsoft, but I came into that role after founding a studio that they then acquired called Auroch Digital, which, you know, has kind of grown on to do its own things now and really exciting stuff there. So yeah, day to day at the moment I do a variety of stuff that. But over the years, what. What I've always been fascinated and interested in is, and I think it's that same search is you're trying to create an experience that draws somebody in and that grabs them and that they want to keep coming back for more. Like, you know, that to me was always the thing working in gaming when I knew we got something good is when if I was play testing it, I forgot that I was looking for a specific feature. I was checking something was working and just got drawn into it. And it's that same feeling, you know, When I first discovered D and D, when you. You stopped thinking about the rules in a kind of analytical, quantitative way and just got drawn into the adventure, to the excitement and stuff like that. And that's the thing, I think as a game developer, I'm always looking.
- [10:26]
C
When you look at your portfolio of stuff that you developed, there are some RPG adjacent stuff. So you've picked up some of the IPs and getting done.
- [10:34]
D
Yeah. So I'm lucky enough in my career as a game developer to have worked on some of the tabletop IPs. So we did a version of Ogre with Steve Jackson games and he's a lovely guy, the American Steve Jackson. In fact, I've found myself. It's very special that I've met both Steve Jacksons, the American Steve Jackson, Ogre Goebs Steve Jackson and the British Fighting Fantasy Games Workshop, Steam Jackson as well. And both are lovely. So yeah, I feel there must be some kind of special achievement badge you get for both the two Jacksons. The two Jackson, yeah.
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A
Not getting all confused.
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C
Yeah, yeah.
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D
But yes. So we've done stuff with Modiphius, we did an Akhtung Cthulhu tactics game, which is kind of hybrid RPG turn based strategy. We've done a Dark Future game with Games Workshop and probably the most successful one that Orok did was Warhammer 40,000 boltgun, which obviously the Warhammer setting, that's much more first person shooter action orientated, doesn't really have the RPG elements. But yeah, so, you know, so I've been around a lot of that sort of stuff and I think at the moment video games are doing some really interesting stuff within what we call CRPGs, computer role playing games. So obviously Baldur's Gate 3, which is an amazing, amazing game, has done really well and I have no doubt has brought loads of people into the tabletop space because, you know, they're like, what is this thing? Because we see it in the video game thing, when people get into Warhammer games, they get an interest and then they cross over. For somebody like me, I'm coming to the video games from the original, but there's plenty of people who are coming to tabletop stuff from the video game stuff. And for me that's really exciting.
- [12:14]
A
I just think it's interesting that though, isn't it, how some people don't make the crossover? I mean, we've never made the crossover into video games, but my kids aren't into. I mean, they're kind of adults now, but when they were kids they didn't get into tabletop role playing, even though I was trying to encourage them. But they did play things like Fable and they used to really like Fable. I mean, my daughter used to love playing Fable and she loves what's the Last of Us? And things like that. And I used to say, well, these are like role playing games. You'll love role playing games. She'd go, oh, no, I'm not doing that. I want to do this.
- [12:49]
D
Is that because you were doing it
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A
and you could be. It could be, yeah, maybe it. But I do find it sort of odd sometimes out there. Some people do one or the other and some people do both. And that is an odd thing because you'd think either everyone would do both or everyone would just do one or the other.
- [13:10]
D
Yeah, I think there is a separation. Like maybe it's. And again, there's definitely a lot of crossover, like working in video games. There's a lot of people who work in video games who love Tabletop and that's all of it. You know, board games, war games, role playing games. And I think for me, some of it is it's nice to be doing something where there's not a screen. Like, don't get me wrong, I love video games, love doing that. But, you know, it's like I want more variety in my gaming diet. And so, you know, sitting around a table playing an RPG is a different experience. And it's a great experience that I love. But yeah, no, the separation is definitely there. Like we exhibited a couple of times at tabletop events because we did a lot of this what we'd call digital tabletop, so stuff where it's either an IP that you're bringing across into the digital realm that exists in as an intellectual property that exists in the tabletop world, or a game that has a very strong tabletop aesthetic. And we've done a couple of times at shows, like UK Games Expo type shows. So we did one at Essen where we exhibiting. And yeah, people just aren't that into it. Even though in another event they might go to a video games event like Gamescom or something like that and have an amazing time. I think people just get into their different headspaces, I guess.
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C
At that point, as you mentioned, Thomas, we sort of met each other at the Games Workshop. It was like an academic event, wasn't it?
- [14:34]
D
Yeah.
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C
Organized by the Manchester Metropolitan University in September and that was a day given up to Games Workshop. And it was an introduction for me into the different cultures around play in GameTopShop. Because I suppose I've had this monolithic idea that it meant one thing. But I appreciated after that day that was a series of subcultures within it.
- [15:01]
D
Yeah, absolutely. And that day was like, you know, it's, it's. I think this is one of the recognitions that the thing we're into, you know, the role playing games and Warhammer and stuff like that, these are culturally significant things now. That's why academics want to study it, want to write books about it and stuff like that, because it matters. You know, in the same way we'll write books about, you know, famous bands like the Beatles and stuff like that. And they had a huge influence on culture. Or Bowie, people who write books about film and how film culture's influenced us and how we influence it. And I think the same's happening with games. This whole area of study about how games influence our culture and how our culture influences gaming. And that conference was a kind of interesting shoot of it. So, yeah, like you say, within Warhammer itself, you've obviously got that. You've got different games within Warhammer, but lots of us, like with D and D came into it at different stages in life. And so there's a term that was discussed a lot there called Oldhammer, which is exactly what the term is. You could debate. But I would say it's people who came into it around what we'd call the golden age of Warhammer, which is so Warhammer Fantasy battle releases in 1983, Warhammer Fantasy roleplay in 86, and then Warhammer 40,000, first edition in 87. So that kind of 80s period up into the very early 90s was a very specific period in what Games Workshop were producing. And obviously all of those things that it created then Warhammer Fantasy, Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay have all gone on to have very successful different lives. And then people come into it through different ways. And that's one of the things I love about it is like you get people into Warhammer, you just like the Lore. They might read the books from the Black Library, they might listen to Lore videos. They just like the story. You get people who love the craft side of it, making the miniatures. They make dioramas, amazing miniatures that. And then people who just want to play the war games, play the various board game war games, hybrids, they've got so things like Blackstone Fortress, which is like hybrid RPG wargaming type thing. And you can come in at whichever point interests you. And again, of course there's people like me who like all of it. I love the Lore, I love the gaming and I love the model making and I think that's one of the real strengths of it is you just pick the bit you're interested in and go with that.
- [17:15]
C
Yeah, because I think I was described that because there were a few grog squatters blighting there was. Yeah, Robert Arcangeli was there and Jordan Sorcery. And in Monster man was doing that presentation there, James was doing that. James Holloway. And they said, oh, you're a pre Goldhammer.
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A
Really old.
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D
Pre Hammer.
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A
Pre Hammer. We're pre Hammer. We shall look like something dug up some hammer. Old, really old, old age pensioner hammer.
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C
I find that really was interesting to see that that culture existed and as
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B
you say, how much the miniatures have
- [18:01]
C
an impact on the war and backwards
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B
and forwards and how all the kit
- [18:07]
C
bashing and the creativity of the people who are playing the games impacts ultimately what happens in it.
- [18:16]
D
And so this is kind of deep area of interest to me. And I came to that event because I'm as a personal project, they're not connected to any work I do working on a book which I have a publisher and everything for. And it's going to be about the creation of Warhammer 40,000. And what if you're an aspiring games designer or creative, what you can learn from that? Because, you know, a bunch of people came around and you know, created something in various places in Nottingham and around and that's gone on to be, I think the market cap of Games Workshop now is about 5.2 billion pound company. So, you know, they created something, they bottled lightning, you know, and I'm interested in what did they do that you can learn from that. Did that. And again, you know, as a longtime listener of the podcast and follower of yourselves on Patreon, I've always been fascinated by what you described, that period where you came into White Dwarf. And then as the war gaming part picked up, you know, you got pushed out a little bit. But for me is the kind of like that's the really interesting bit is because the first edition Warhammer 40,000 absolutely represents this really interesting transitional point. Because the first edition very much references role playing games. It has a Games master. Although it's a war game with two sides. First edition has a games Master. And the same with first edition Warhammer Fantasy Battle. The first published, they were modules, in effect, they were like adventures, things like macdeath. They, they had a scenario, you had factions, sides, almost like a party. You'd have released miniatures for it, there'd be a story, you would Play through that story, there would be a games master running the story. But because a lot of people were coming to gaming at that time, D and D was such a big thing. And sure, there were plenty of other games around that time, around this mid-80s, but dungeons and Dragons was the star around which they all orbited. And so its gravity kind of warped everything around it. And so, you know, D and D has a huge influence on the creation of Warhammer. You know, firstly, because Warhammer is created in a way, because Games Workshop knows they're gonna lose the exclusive UK distribution license. Again, this is a debated point. Exactly why for Dungeons and Dragons. So they need another product. Part of its creation as well comes around. You know, Brian Ansell was talking to. Well, I spoke to Alan Merritt, who was their production director, interviewing him for the book. And he's like, you know, what are they doing with all these wizards they're buying? What are they doing with all these goblins? And then that, you know, cause they're selling tons of goblins and wizards and it's like, well, what can we do to get. What are you gonna do with all of them? Well, you could play a war game with them. And so then they create this idea of Warhammer. But again, if you go to early Warhammer, there's loads of monsters in it. Why are there loads of monsters in it? Because it's envisaged. You're fighting monsters, and then over time, the factions emerge. So, you know, as Warhammer 40,000 develops, they drop the games mast. But for me, what's so fascinating is if you look at that, if you take a step back and look at that arc of history, Dungeons and Dragons comes out of wargaming. You know, Guy Gaxton, Arneston and all those other people, you know, orbiting who created Dungeons and Dragons, they're creating a war game. Initially, they didn't have a word for it, did they? They were like, this is kind of like a war game, but you've only got one soldier. And then it morphs into what we understand as role playing games now. And then that casts its own gravity on these emergent Warhammer war games. But they're kind of hybrid war games, role playing games, and then they kind of go off on their own way. And, you know, and that's why that period, you know, the huge amount of energy at games virtual goes into the release of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, which while commercially doesn't do anything like the numbers that Warhammer Fantasy and then later Warhammer 40,000 does, but it absolutely sets the setting, it establishes the lore of what Warhammer is. And again, the thing we talked about, that event, it really establishes starts to establish chaos as this setting, which I would argue that becomes the really interesting thing that then Warhammer takes on both fantasy and science fiction as its own identity, which differentiates it from Dungeons and Dragons. And you know, that Tolkien esque fantasy high fantasy setting that been around, lots of people have riffed off it. But what Warhammer does is it adds this. Yeah. This element of chaos in it and then it does something interesting which it doesn't develop the law side of it, which if, you know, looking at Michael Moorcock and things like that, he's obviously got that balance of law and chaos. And while initially you could argue they bring out a box set of lords of warriors of Law and warriors of Chaos, but they soon drop the lore stuff and they focus on the chaos. A lot more skulls, A lot of skulls, a lot of horned monsters and demons and eventually that becomes the setting and I think that's what they've now created. Something that's really interesting is this setting where there are gods of chaos and there aren't really the opposite gods of law in the same way. They're nowhere near as powerful. And certainly in the 40 cases setting there aren't any gods of law. There are humans and there are very powerful humans like the Emperor, but they're on the press. But because they're human, they're fallible and they can fall to chaos in that way. And it's like that's the interesting thing of the setting, I think, is this perpetual entropy that threatens to wipe everything out. And that's. While you can find elements of that in say Lovecraftian cosmic horror, they've created their own take on it that is, and I would argue uniquely British as well. It's a kind of very, you know, it's a very British take on this Chaos law thing. We're almost like, well, you know, we'll ditch the law bit of it and we'll just have the. We'll just have the destruction, you know, the chaos.
- [24:06]
C
Yeah, you show that in the Warhammer fantasy role playing there are great pains, aren't they, to balance out the law and chaos. But that eventually goes.
- [24:17]
D
Yeah, yeah, completely. So in first edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, they've got a page on, you know, got a page with the Chaos Gods and the Gods of Law and there's kind of equal numbers of them. But the Chaos Gods, they develop completely and you know, they do these Realm of Chaos books. So The Realms of Chaos books which they start talking about, I think the earliest reference is probably in 83, not long after Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay comes out, might be just into 84, but they plan to do this book called the Realm of Chaos to explore this idea. And it's actually not till 1988 that they finally release this. And then they've got so much Chaos stuff, they do it in two volumes of Chaos. And of course there's no Realm of Law, there's no equivalent of that. Because at that point, the identity of what this thing's about is so Chaos. Yeah. It's not balanced out in the same way.
- [25:11]
A
That's a Mike Brompton book, isn't it?
- [25:13]
D
Yeah. And again, tracking back this stuff that was created like 40 odd years ago, 50 odd years ago in some cases, has been really interesting and really absorbing. And I've been lucky enough to chat with plenty of the people involved in it, people like Rick Priestly and that I've been very generous giving time. And there's more people I'd like to chat to. And of course they're trying to remember stuff that they wrote who had the conversation about something 40 odd years ago. Then fair enough, we're all human and we forget that stuff. But I think I'm piecing together a part of it. But that would be one of the things I would say that's really interesting and mirrors the creation of Dungeons and Dragons is you've got a network of these very nerdy people who loved this stuff, chatted about this stuff, did this stuff, played this stuff, talked about this stuff. So we're very enmeshed in each other. So you can absolutely see how in some cases, even if so and so wrote this book and they absolutely did the work, they were influenced and inspired by lots of other people doing other stuff around. So it's a very networked effect, what we would call very networked effect of how that culture's created. And of course that's reverberating now because there's new generations of people discovering all these things and doing their own take on it and everything like that, which for me is really exciting.
- [26:29]
C
Yeah. I think my first exposure, I think I mentioned this when we met on the day. My first exposure as Chaos as a kind of relativism was through Gorantha. And you can see that that had an influence on Warhammer's development, particularly with the Chaos Beastmen, which were ultimately bruised, weren't they? That they did, yeah.
- [26:51]
D
And I think that to me is a great example. Again, that particular period in Games Workshop's history where as a business and again part of my day job work in business development type stuff. So I do think about this sort of area they were very pragmatic about with Warhammer 40,000 is they were like, we're making this science fiction game. You might have a bunch of Judge Dredd miniatures. So we need a faction that you can use it. So they create the Arbitis, who are like the space police, so you can reuse those miniatures. There's a faction in Warhammer 40,000 called the Jokero. Who are these orangutans with incredible nimble fingers and technical knowledge. And that's because they had a miniature of an orangutan for a Judge Dredd thing. And they were like, well, we want you to be able to reuse that. So stick that in. One of my favorite bits in first edition 40k is there's a bit about that this lost planet, which is this dark sooty planet called Birmingham.
- [27:45]
A
And.
- [27:46]
D
But again they technically regressed and they're using Renaissance era weapons like gunpowder and stuff like that. But again that's because if you've got a bunch of miniatures, you've got a bunch of Renaissance era miniatures from Warham Fantasy Roleplay. You can stick them in 40k. They're super practical like that. And like you said, Games Workshop, because they're making things for other factions. In fact, I just was looking through one of the old white dwarves and there's Judge Dredd city maps, you know, which obviously the maps were playing the role playing game of Judge Dredd. But it says on the advert, oh, but you can use these for 40k. You know, like if you want to repurpose this stuff, that's great.
- [28:23]
A
It's interesting you talk about those kind of things though, because that's what's odd about our perception of it at the time when we were the kind of pre old Hammer people and it all changed.
- [28:35]
D
You were the middle aged hammer.
- [28:37]
A
Middle aged hammer. Wow. Yeah. But it was interesting. You talk about those three levels of, of it of, you know, people are into the lore, people are into the miniatures and people are into playing the war games. Because I think the way we perceived it was it was all about miniatures. Yeah, that's how we perceived it, isn't it? And what was interesting was our role playing games at that point had abandoned miniatures. So we started with miniatures. Cause that kind of got us into it, didn't it? We started buying the miniatures and wondered what the miniatures were for, then discovered the role playing Games. But then we stopped using miniatures completely. And then when Warhammer was all, we just saw that, didn't we? Or I did any. I just thought, oh, is this all about miniatures? It's like a craft thing now. It felt like it was a craft. But it's interesting when you talk about the lore and the actual gaming and that idea. See, I was never aware of that, that they were creating things that you could use other sets of miniatures in. And that's kind of interesting how our perception was it's about miniatures. And then we thought, oh, forget that and just basically shut the door on it. But then all the things you're saying sound quite interesting.
- [29:43]
D
Well, I think around that time, because, like I say, it is interesting that transition, because they, you know, as a business games workshop is producing these miniatures and people are buying them. But they were being produced originally for play, role playing games. Like I say, they're under license. They're making Lord of the Rings wands, they're making Dungeons and Dragons wands, they're making runequest wands, they're making, you know, Call of Cthulhu wands, they're making miniatures. And then they're making genericized miniatures which are just. Just some orcs, some warriors. And, you know, then they start experimenting and doing some interesting ones. So they had this series called LE Limited Edition. And that actually the first ever space Marine, which predates Warhammer 40,000's release in 87, is one of these LE called LE2, which was a space marine. And obviously they were working on it in the background, but they put a couple of these ones out. And one of the ones I think is really interesting is a miniature called wizard with a submachine gun.
- [30:37]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [30:38]
D
And it's this great miniature, but it sold really well. Apparently, according to people I've chatted with there, it sold really well. And they were like, wow, people are buying this, you know, and again, it sets the seeds to say. And what's interesting again, about 40k from that point of view is when they were working on 40k, speaking to, you know, various people, is it wasn't intended to be a massive release of its own. It was going to be this release on the side. They weren't going to release necessarily miniatures for it. They were going to release little packs that you could adapt the fantasy miniature. So maybe you buy a bunch of orcs and you buy some like arms with guns and glue them on or something like that. And so you would just kind of customize them in. Because there was a general Sense that. And I think because of the strength of Dungeons and Dragons that the science fiction stuff just wouldn't sell as well. And then as they get closer to the release of 40k, they become apparent they really got something here. And again with those earlier Space Marine releases, which sold really well, they've got a sense that they've really got something. So by the time Time Warhammer 40,000 releases comes out in 87, in the autumn of 87, they're fully behind it. And this is an interesting thing, looking at the White dwarf stuff, the 1983 one, when they release Warhammer Fancy Battle, there is an advert in White Dwarf for their own product. They're part of the same conglomerate companies. There's an advert for it, but that's it. It's actually two issues later that there's any. Any article about using Warhammer Fantasy Battle thing. You know, it's not really covered in that same way. And of course, remember they're reviewing their own games, if you remember them, which is this slightly odd bit, you know, where, you know, I'm not sure could they give it a bad review, did they? You know, it's a slightly. We'd think of a slightly odd thing now. But then when, you know, when Warhammer Fantasy roleplay releases in 86, the COVID is given over to it, there's a big preview of it, you know, there's huge coverage. And again, once 40k releases, they're doing early teaser issues, they're doing illuminations where they're pre showing the art of it. They're full coverage on that. And I think that to me that's about them as a business realizing we've got this magazine and we're making products about it. We obviously want to talk about the stuff we're making the reality then the business thing is what's really selling is the miniatures and 40k. And so of course now Warhammer 40,000 is the biggest part of that business, you know.
- [33:04]
C
And how do you account for that? So why did it take off so much?
- [33:09]
D
So I think, I think it's a number of things. And again, writing the book now, like
- [33:14]
C
I'll say buy the book and.
- [33:15]
D
Because I'm still really exploring that. But I think it's several things. One of the things I think it does really well is it presents you something new but with something, you know. And I think it was really clever the way they took that fancy setting and said, but we're going to give you that in space. Cause that audience would have known what an orc was and what an elf was and what a dwarf was. And instead they said, yeah, but it's gonna be different. They're gonna be Space Orbs and the Eldar, you know, they're the Space elves and there's gonna be, you know, there's gonna be space Dwarves. They called them squats at that point, you know. And so it allowed you. There was an easy way in as a fan. Like, you know, this isn't something completely new that I don't know anything about it, but at the same time. So there's an easy route for me to understand it. But it's a way that something I know is kind of reimagined in a different way. And I think that's part of what its power was. The other thing is the Space Marines were really cool. And again, there's an interesting crossover of the fantasy science fiction. So the Games Workshop produced a box set called skeleton horde in 86, I think it was. And this is a plastic miniatures that were done and. And the same techniques and in fact, as I understand it, on the same sprues that they were trying to put together. They also then started producing this box set of space Marines called RTB01, which had this great craft thing. You know, he talked about the craft interest is you could like with the skeletons, you can make your own things. If you want a forearm skeleton, you could just stick it together that way you want your Space Marines to all have helmets. You put them on. You can put the little heads on, you can give the bayonets, you can put, you know, you can mess them and people did they customize. And I think that was another thing that was really key is it was very open to what we would now call user generated content. Which of course role playing games have been like that since the dot. You know, they were all about user generated content. But Warhammer had a kind of interesting take on it, which is we've got this universe with all these chapters of Space Marines. And in the original lore there's a thousand chapters of Space Marines. We've documented a couple of them, but the rest of them, that's up to you. And that was, you know, me as a player was like, great, I'm gonna make my own Space Marine chapter. And of course that's a nice easy way in, like, cool. What color are they? I don't have to create a whole world. I don't have to like a dm, you know, having to come up with the, you know, the town and the setting and the adventure and Everything like, it's a nice easy way, comfortable way to me go. I just got to come up with a cool color scheme and a cool name and I'm off, you know.
- [35:44]
C
Yeah. And they built their business model as well on onboarding new players all the time, didn't they? Because I think my son nearly got caught in the theme because Raptor, well, it gives you a space Marine to paint, don't they? They're dead easy to paint, aren't they?
- [36:01]
B
Space Marines.
- [36:02]
C
You could do a bit of dry push and you think, this is brilliant. Yeah, I'll buy one of those.
- [36:08]
A
10,000 of them.
- [36:08]
C
10.
- [36:09]
A
10,000 of them.
- [36:12]
C
How important is that kind of business model that they had of having the stores where people could go and play and building communities in those stores?
- [36:22]
D
I mean, I think that whole part of it, you know, which in business terms we would, you know, a vertical integration and horizontal integration of their business. So, you know, they run a magazine which then promotes the business. They own the shops that, that sell the stuff. They're in the factories that manufacture the stuff. So they, they could make all of that. But again, it was, it didn't start out like that. It was, it was actually quite, as I described, quite disjointed initially. I don't think consciously. I think just different parts were doing different things. And then as they start to make all these things gel, they can really make it work. So when Warhammer 40,000 comes out and it's a huge hit, the players want more. Like, you know, this is why there's more and more stuff in White Dwarf. Because people like me are like, I want to know more. I want more stuff. So, of course. But then they've got this, they've got this vehicle to get the stuff out there. They've got the manufacturing plants, they've got the magazine. They can write new articles and new lore and new, you know, new chapters and everything like that. And they've got the shops to distribute it and, you know, set the games up so people can play it and everything like that. So I think it's a big part of it like that. You know, there's some smart business act acumen. I mean, they do some odd things as well. Like, you know, they founded a record label at one point, you know. Yeah, right.
- [37:30]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:31]
D
You know, so they, they do some, they, you know, like any business, they, they do some odd stuff, but, but overall, I, I, I think what they do is very good. And again, they, you know, I think they're, they're doing a lot of Interesting stuff. Like for example, every year White Dwarf would do that big survey, wouldn't they, where you could fill in the survey about what games you're playing and send it in. And then you know, we would see in a now businesses are using really detailed customer data to find out about, you know, it's a kind of early version of that. But again, in doing the research for the book, one of the interesting things is some of those early surveys, you can tell they're done by the staff who are into role playing games. Because in the list of games you can checkbox of what you've been playing, they don't have Warhammer in, even though it's a surveying White dwarf who own, you know, part of the same business. They don't in the early ones. They don't even though Warhammer's out. And so it does come up in the survey results. But because people are ticking other and writing Warhammer and then eventually they're like, oh yeah, you know, people are playing this Warhammer game. But one of the things that really surprised me is actually the business, how the business decisions and the creative decisions within Games Workshop, they often over mesh in an interesting way. And you know, I think the perception would often be that oh, the business people are ruining the creative thing, but they do some interesting stuff. Like I mentioned before, I think the whole genesis of Warhammer has this business underlying, you know, emphasis that is the license to distribute D and D and or the emphasis of what to do with all the miniatures. How do we get people to buy and use their miniatures? What do they do with them? But also something that's really iconic with Games Workshop miniatures, the slaughter bases. So, you know, the little plastic circle or square that, that comes out of a desire to say how can we reduce production costs on these lead miniatures? Well, because traditionally they're cast with the base. Well, if we can get rid of that base and use cheaper plastic in there, then they're much cheaper to manufacture. So then they set about doing this. They create this sort of base that in effect becomes this really iconic, you know, thing about miniatures. And now that, you know, people expect miniatures generally to have its own base, but that it was a business decision that then becomes iconic and creative. And you know, now the base size actually differentiates, you know, rules within the game. You get different base sizes and different base sizes can, you know, various games do this, can differentiate how that unit moves or behaves.
- [39:50]
A
It's interesting how business decisions kind of influence things a bit. Going back to what you're saying before, again, our perception of it was, oh, they're selling. They just want to sell lots of miniatures. But from what you've just said, they were selling lots of miniatures. Yes, it comes from the fact, and you see, you're not aware of this as a kid, comes from the fact they are selling lots of miniatures and they want to kind of capitalize on that. Not they're not selling miniatures and they want to. It's kind of the other way around that they are selling lots and lots of miniatures anywhere.
- [40:20]
C
If you read the dice when the story. Brian Ansel's always going to them, isn't it? For more investment sphere, build up the miniature side of the business and keeps getting turned away. I think it's the.
- [40:33]
D
Yeah. And then that, you know that, that, you know, Brian Anse was clearly like a very clever guy and clearly had, that he had that way of approaching things that was both creative and business. And I think you have to kind of take your hat off to him seeing that. And so, yeah, he presided over Games Workshop during that period when Warhammer, Warhammer Fantasy Battle, Warhammer 40,000 all come out. So, you know, that critical period of it. So absolutely, it is that strange mix of those things. And you're right, one thing's driving the other and they get into these cycles of amplification. So of course, you know, it's, you know, early on, White Dwarf doesn't have. It doesn't have a lot of stuff to do with miniatures in it as the adverts because you're buying them for your role playing game. But it doesn't have like, you know, then they start this column. It's not originally called Heavy Metal, it becomes called Heavy Metal later on. But they start this column which I think one of the Lone Wolf people, I think Joe Devers. Yeah, Joe Devers starts doing the one. They have these, you know, showing these miniatures. And my suspicion is then that people are reading White Dwarf, seeing these miniatures painting. Oh, that's cool. I want to know. I want to, I want to see more pictures of miniatures and I want to see them painted. So then of course, you know, people are writing letters in and saying, well, can we have this? So then they start doing more of that and then that starts pushing the other bits of the role playing stuff. And that's where you start to get this, I guess schism, we can call it. It starts to push the other stuff.
- [42:05]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [42:07]
C
And just in the history of 140k, there are periods of time where they revisit role playing games and produce role playing games games. So where's that at in the moment? So if we wanted to play in the world out of Warhammer 40K, where would we go?
- [42:23]
D
So cubicle 7 have got the license to do role playing games set in the Warhammer universe. And they do a range of stuff currently which are, you know, and they've done various. I think it's been licensed out a couple of times. But that they do a game at the moment which is really good. You know, I've had a mess around with it. It's really nice. There's also a really good video game role playing game version set in the 40K universe called Rogue Trader which was the title of the original. Yeah. So produced by a company called owlcat and I've played that as well. And it's excellent. It's like it's a turn based strategy role playing game. So you have characters, you develop the characters. There's a big story, you make choices of what you're gonna do and everything like that, which impacts on the story. It's a huge game, huge story. But obviously at its heart is the, this, the exploration of the story and building the characters and this tactical kind of combat between small bands of characters. It's not a war game. It's not like there's thousands of soldiers fighting thousands. It's a small party you've got trying to uncover a bigger plot line, you know, so not dissimilar to something like Baldur's Gate 3. So if you like role playing games, you know, I would thoroughly recommend Warhammer 40,000, Rogue Trader. You know, it's a really good game and there's another one they've got in development coming out as well.
- [43:39]
C
And obviously we've missed all the law that's happened. So what's a quick way of catching up on what's happened?
- [43:49]
D
So there's a lot of good, there's a lot of good law tubers like YouTubers who do the law stuff. So you know, you mentioned Jordan Sorcery. He's done, I think he's covered a little bit of 40k. Arbiter Ian is very, very good. He, you know, he's, he's done some really good stuff. Snipe and Wib is another YouTubers that I like and they, they both have done sor bits of law stuff but also bits of, you know, going back to earlier versions of the game and exploring that kind of stuff. But that there is, you know, there is, there is a lot of YouTubers who just do law stuff. Like exclusively and you know, get into real detail on that. So. But the. I think the thing is now is like somebody trying to. It's like somebody coming tell me what's happening in Coronation Street. Because what they've done that I think is really interesting is when. When the first game came out, it was this setting. It was like, here's this sett the setup. Humanity in the far future. There's this semi immortal being called the Emperor, who's a human who's transcended, is a transhuman, powerful psychic being. And he's shepherding humanity into this new age. But he's dying now and what's happening with it? So they set this. Again, it's this thing on a precipice a bit like we talked about before. And then they kind of left it allowed. And then for many years, that narrative just was there over the last sort of decade or so. An Arbiterian does some good coverage of this. They've been advancing that story and for people like me into it. It is really interesting now because the story's advancing, new things are happening. Stuff that previously was not set in stone, but just hadn't. Yeah, just hadn't developed and now developing. So, yeah, the Law is now growing. So they're constantly growing what's there. And it's getting bigger and bigger and. And bigger.
- [45:40]
C
And what are your favorite units that you play?
- [45:46]
D
So I. For 40k at the moment, I play a lot of game called Kill Team, which is a kind of small unit game within there. Yeah. So again, you can maybe argue it's a bit more RPG in the sense of the narrative, things a bit more in it. You know, small unit, handful of. Rather than multiple units. You've just got one unit. I play that. So at the moment I really like the Eldar Corsairs, who are the kind of. Of elf pirates, basically. They're pretty cool. And you know, I've also got some of the Imperial Guard, which are the kind of the normal humans, if you like. But there's a. Yeah, there's been a couple of box sets of those released that really nice. So I'm enjoying those a lot. But over the years I've also played Tau, which are their kind of like. They're jokingly called the. Like the Space Socialists. So they're like a faction who, you know, you. You have what they call for the Greater Good, so that, you know, they're doing all that thing for the greater good of their species, their faction. But they're also, you know, they have. They Conquer various things and then integrate them into their empires. But that's the thing with 40k. Like everybody's a baddie. Like, you know, this is explicit. Well, the whole idea in the first one is like in the far future there is only war. We kind of need everybody to be a baddie to be war. Because if actually, you know, if it was more like a role playing game, we could negotiate our way out of it. Well, where's the fight? I've come for a war game and actually we've just signed a peace treaty, you know. And so for me that's the interesting thing they've set up is there is only war. And in order for us to play war games, there needs to be only war.
- [47:22]
C
Only war.
- [47:23]
A
Only war. There you go.
- [47:24]
C
So when you start embarrassing on this, I think this is your project.
- [47:28]
A
My project. Get all the miniatures and paint them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [47:32]
D
I think, well, you know, there's some good introductory techniques for anyone. There's a technique called Slap Chop which, you know, is a very good way, way of like. Exactly as you said. You can get really good results with some simple techniques. And again, it makes you feel good. You're like, wow, this miniature is pretty cool looking again, I think that's one of the things they've done well. It's like with a few techniques, little bit of thing, you get a cool looking miniature.
- [47:54]
A
I used to think I was quite good at it and then I saw the pictures in White Dwarf and thought, oh dear, oh no.
- [48:00]
C
Oh no. Well, there was a point, wasn't it? I think it might have been Joe Dava or Gary Chop, but there was complaints about how, how poor the minty paintings were and they were saying, well, we don't have the really good ones because we want to encourage you.
- [48:16]
A
Right, we'll just show you rubbish ones. Yeah, set the, the bar very low for you.
- [48:22]
D
I mean, the stuff that's produced now, I mean, I have to say that, you know, this is one of lovely, you know, I do the craft bit and I enjoy it and I think in a way you're competing with yourself. Like I don't, you know, you're not. I don't see myself as competing with, with, you know, those. But I do enjoy when you see people who've really done it, you can hats off to it. Like some of it is like the, the next level stuff where you. Yeah. You cannot understand how they've managed to
- [48:44]
A
paint it that way. You see the shop stuff in the shop windows. There's one in Bolton, isn't There you look in the window at the stuff and you think, God blimey, that that is good, isn't it? Some of it is great. Does look great.
- [48:53]
D
Yeah.
- [48:54]
C
It's just a wonder that they've got a capitalization value of 4.5.
- [48:59]
D
Certainly about 5.2 billion.
- [49:01]
A
Yeah. Spending the time making miniatures all the time.
- [49:03]
D
And again you all that from a bunch of people sitting around in Nottingham who are a bunch of history nerds that, you know, they played D and D and games like that. They were playing board games, they were reading history books and all of that kind of got smushed up in together and you know, out of it comes this.
- [49:19]
A
But it's like you say, isn't it? There's certain key things in it that you can see why it cottoned on. Like that's what you said earlier was interesting about the idea that it's fantasy in space. Cause one of the problems with science science fiction games I always think is it feels. This is going to sound stupid. It feels more made up because you are just these alien sci fi games. There's aliens that someone's made up. Whereas things like dwarves and elves are rooted in mythology. So people, it's more. More accessible to people, isn't it? So it is a stalker genius to go, right, instead of creating some aliens, let's just go elves, orcs, dwarves, There you go. But they're in space. Like you say elf corsairs. They're like, yeah, and they are alien in that they're not human, but they're not alien. As in what are these things?
- [50:09]
D
Well, it's also that approachable science fiction in the sense of if you think about what a far future war when they, you know, they've got the technology where they can do faster than light travel between the stars, but we're still gonna get an ax and try and beat you to death with an axe. It's like, of course, you know, something like science fiction. Something like Greg Baer with a book like Anvila Stars. The way they describe that far future conflict, combat. It's almost like a physics novel because it's all happening at scales or some of E. M. Banks's stuff. It's happening at a scale beyond comprehension. Which also means that it's not very. I mean they're great books, but the idea of you playing a war game in that is like. Well, the minimum distance between starships is like several hundred thousand million miles. They're fighting at. Whereas actually to get like you say to get that, you know that visceral sense. You want your space marine with his sword stabbing somebody.
- [51:01]
A
Talking about this the other day, weren't we, about Traveler, where I'm running a Traveler campaign and we had a scene where someone got a fusion gun and it was a very brutal battle where people were just being zapped instantly. And that problem of technology, when weapons become so advanced, it almost stops being fun because. Because like you say, where's the fun in just pushing a button and annihilating people, you know?
- [51:29]
C
It's fun, isn't it?
- [51:30]
A
Well, it's fun in there. If you want to kill people, do it with an axe.
- [51:34]
D
Well, in the far future, in the far future there's only war, but fun. Yeah.
- [51:38]
A
From a gaming experience, it's. Yeah. Idea of how do you replicate something that combat that feels sort of exciting, you know.
- [51:47]
D
Yeah. And I think this is where I would say, you know, the role playing games and war games have the same thing, like playing 40K and there's about. Of other war games as well. But 40k for sure, it has real drama in it. Like you say, the real drama, who's going to win. And often I've played so many games where it's come down to that last dice roll, you know, if I manage to get a six on this, you know, you know, I've taken your last wound away and I've won. If you managed to do your saving throw test, you've survived. It's a draw, you know. And that echoes role playing games I've done where, you know, it reaches this moment of high drama.
- [52:19]
A
Yeah.
- [52:21]
C
So you're working on this book?
- [52:22]
D
Yes.
- [52:23]
C
Is the end in sight? When are we going to see it?
- [52:26]
D
Probably I should finish writing the rest of this year. So it's all right if I plug. So I've got a substack. Exploringwarhammer.substack.com I think I'm on Blue sky and yeah, and so I'm publishing bits of it there. And also what's been really nice is I put stuff out, asking questions because again, some of the stuff I'm like, for example, trying to find when the first space Marine models were released. It was a long time ago and there's not necessarily all the stuff from there. You know, people have been very helpful at giving me extra bits of info, stuff, you know, to pick up on again as that conference, you know, people pointing out like some of those interesting parallels between the brew in Runequest and the, you know, the Chaos Beasts, the Beast Men and you know, that kind of stuff, which is all interesting. For what I'm doing.
- [53:10]
A
Yeah, natural.
- [53:11]
C
Well, thank you very much for coming to our podcast studio.
- [53:15]
A
One and only time.
- [53:18]
C
It's been great speaking to you.
- [53:19]
D
Well, thank you. And it is. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.
- [53:22]
A
Thank you.
- [53:23]
C
Good Master Screen. Welcome to the room of Roleplay and Rambling. And we're in the pub. We have not been in the pub for. We've got the wigs on. Remember that there's a thing wigs on.
- [53:35]
A
Yeah, I do, yeah. Is it wigs on, wigs on or
- [53:38]
C
is it wigs off? It's wigs on. If you wigs off. Ever remember it was a thing to do with Sean.
- [53:44]
B
Connect Connery. Because we're in the pub.
- [53:47]
A
Why is wig on the pub? I can't remember.
- [53:49]
C
I can't remember.
- [53:50]
A
I can't remember. I can't have the justification for it. I mean, I get. I know what you mean. Wigs on is in the pub, but I can't remember the justification. I can, I mean, admitted that it's been recorded. I could go and listen to it, couldn't I? Because it's been recorded. I don't think I could be bothered. I'll just accept, take your word that there's a good reason.
- [54:08]
C
Yeah. Well, the other thing is, is that our horns where we normally record are under threat, aren't they? Because we. The bunker where we used to record with the summer fruits has been dismantled.
- [54:20]
A
So are the summer fruits still there?
- [54:22]
C
I can't give any update on the status of the summer fruits. And the other place we go is the attic.
- [54:30]
A
Yeah.
- [54:31]
C
And we tried to record in that and it was howling. And also the great. They bulge up the vast.
- [54:36]
A
There's a weird bulging of ceiling and it makes you think that that's going to come. Come through at any point.
- [54:42]
C
Yeah. It looks like there's been a leak, doesn't it?
- [54:44]
A
There's a few leaks from that building. It's quite old.
- [54:47]
B
And there's a big bulge above our
- [54:49]
C
head where we sit. It's like an interrogation room into it where we sit and there's bulging plaster.
- [54:56]
A
It's irrigationary bulging plaster. It's a kind of torture. If you don't tell the truth, the whoopsie will fall on you.
- [55:03]
C
So we decided to get plastered in
- [55:05]
A
the Pullman's in the pub.
- [55:08]
C
So, hang on, I've got a prefab sprout game here because we're going to talk about chaos. We've talked chaos, chaos, chaos. And what I've got in my prefab Sprout game. So this. The idea of this is that I've got some names of chaos gods and one of them is a ringer. You've got to spot the ringer. Yeah, the one I've made up.
- [55:29]
D
All right.
- [55:29]
C
Okay. Let me find it in my little book. Are you ready? Hashut. Hashut, the Father of Darkness. Hashut, the Father of Darkness. Okay. And so this is the God of fire, greed and tyranny. The patron deity of chaos. Dwarves unleashed on the world during the great catastrophe.
- [55:50]
A
Yeah, it rings a vague bell somewhere in the back of our mind. You've heard. You've heard before. Yeah, That's Hashrut. Hashrut.
- [55:58]
C
Shocked. Okay, the next one is Clarion. Clarion. Okay. Klarion is the practitioner of the dark arts from the witch world, but travels to the mundane with his familiar cat. It's a cat?
- [56:14]
A
Yeah.
- [56:15]
C
Tekel. Tekko is cat. And he's a dangerous user of magic. That is Clarion.
- [56:21]
A
That sounds less convincing. That sounds rubbish.
- [56:24]
C
Does that.
- [56:25]
A
Yeah, but go on.
- [56:26]
C
A world of chaos we're talking about. Yeah, I know I am plowing. Okay. Entra. Entrail.
- [56:33]
A
Entrail.
- [56:34]
C
Enteral seeped out of the a weeping wound in the world, tearing the cosmos and the fabric of reality broken and Entrail entered the world.
- [56:46]
B
Entrail.
- [56:47]
C
And the next one is Eris.
- [56:50]
D
Eris.
- [56:50]
A
Iris.
- [56:52]
C
Had 14 children. Moody, short tempered with blood.
- [56:57]
A
Is that a Chaos God? Just a bloke has had 14 kids. I'll be Moody and Celtic if I had 14 of them. I don't know.
- [57:03]
C
You too. Bloodlust. Got Bloodlust as well, Eris. Okay, so you want to hear them again?
- [57:10]
A
Hashut. Clarion. Entropy.
- [57:14]
C
Amy. Sirus.4. Which one of those is a ringer? If.
- [57:20]
A
If Hasho is the ringer. That's impressive because Hasho sounded the most convincing. Yeah, that's only the most convincing. So if that's Siriko. Well done, Clarion. I think Clarion thought Clarion sounded a bit rubbish, but then the other two did as well. So I thought I was onto something with Clarion. But then when you said the other two. Oh, they look. They said as stupid as Tarian. So.
- [57:41]
C
So he's saying of these chaos gods,
- [57:43]
A
Hatshot is the only one that sounds plausible, even though I suspect he made that up. So what are you going for? I'm going to go for hash up because I think I look quite stupid.
- [57:55]
C
So has shot.
- [57:55]
A
No, I'm going to go for Clarion. No, I've changed my mind. I'm going to go For Clarion. All right.
- [58:02]
C
Okay. Okay, that's it.
- [58:03]
A
Final dancer. Yeah.
- [58:05]
C
Klarion Clarion is otherwise known as the Witch Boy.
- [58:09]
A
Yeah.
- [58:09]
C
And he is from DC Comics, Worlds of Chaos. Oh, he is.
- [58:14]
A
People would have known that was. You were listening.
- [58:16]
C
Yeah. Apparently in the 70s there was a whole series of comics around Lords of
- [58:23]
B
law and the laws of chaos.
- [58:24]
A
Okay.
- [58:25]
C
So it's very mocking. I mean, as we talk through this. I mean, Michael Mock should be claiming it.
- [58:32]
A
Should be. Yeah. It'd be lawsuits all over the place, shouldn't he?
- [58:36]
D
Yeah.
- [58:37]
C
Because he kind of set the mold for some of this discussion. But yeah. No, Clara, the Witch Boy is a reoccurring or any. His vulnerability is his cat tackle.
- [58:50]
A
I've heard of Witch Boy. I've heard of which boy? Yeah. I hadn't heard of him. Clarion. Clarion.
- [58:55]
C
The Witch Boy. Okay.
- [58:57]
B
I.
- [58:57]
C
Shots that you mentioned from Warhammer. He is the patron deity of the Chaos Lords.
- [59:07]
A
That's only. Yeah. Convention.
- [59:08]
C
I think patron in this sense doesn't mean that he has micro transactions each month.
- [59:15]
A
Might be human sacrifices or something.
- [59:18]
C
Yeah, that's. That's a road to hell in having a Patreon account. Have you got a Lord of Chaos who is supported by pet? I like to think that I belong to that category. Eris. Eris is the Greek God of chaos.
- [59:33]
A
All right.
- [59:34]
C
And something to do with apple. I'm not going to go into it
- [59:37]
A
now, but God of Chaos. I know there was a great God of chaos.
- [59:41]
C
Well, you find that in most cultures there is a God of chaos.
- [59:45]
A
Well, I knew there was chaos. I remember doing that at school and it was like before the gods, there was chaos built with a care.
- [59:53]
C
Yeah, but it.
- [59:55]
A
But it was like a void thing, wasn't it? So the idea is slightly different idea in it. Ancient Greek. It was like the idea there was nothing. Chaos was nothing.
- [60:05]
C
Which is.
- [60:06]
A
Feels slightly different from the idea of chaos roleplay games, which is like about evil and disorder and that kind of thing.
- [60:13]
C
Yeah.
- [60:14]
A
Whereas just nothing. Just enter. Yeah, just nothing. That's all it is. It's not necessarily a moral or immoral thing.
- [60:23]
C
Well, I think that's what interests me about this subject of chaos, is that it is one of those things that mention it to rob players and a chaos and everybody's got like a shared understanding of what we're referring to.
- [60:38]
A
Yeah.
- [60:39]
C
But outside of that, even though it is based in myth and it is a recurring imagery, it is. It's something else than that, ain't it? Something it's gaming has made into Something different.
- [60:53]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [60:55]
C
So the one I made up was entro. And you should have known this one because Entero is the goal session.
- [61:01]
A
Have known it. Don't you do that to say, oh, you should have known. Why should I have known it?
- [61:06]
C
It's because we made it up. It was from Rash.
- [61:09]
A
When did we make it up?
- [61:11]
C
When we were 16. Right.
- [61:12]
A
Thank you.
- [61:13]
C
It's just giving me a clue because Entrail is on the nose into it. So he entered the world.
- [61:20]
A
Yeah. Elizabeth, it's not very subtle, is it?
- [61:22]
C
And it is like the entrails of the world.
- [61:25]
A
So it's like it's on the nose. But to be fair to a 16 year old, so ourselves, a lot of role playing stuff is on the nose. Yeah. It's not like, you know.
- [61:35]
C
Yeah, it's exclusive to us.
- [61:37]
A
Yeah. Even though we were 16 when we invented it, I think it's still plausible.
- [61:42]
C
Do you do mild? I think chaos does it is permeate through role playing games and. But in different ways, doesn't it? Yeah.
- [61:55]
A
It's a strange thing, isn't it? Because when we started playing Runequest back in the day, our first fantasy game, Chaos in Runequest was like a really bad thing. Yeah, it was really bad. So chaos is really what you're fighting against, isn't it? So brews and ogres and chaotic features and all that kind of thing. And then I can remember when Simon got the Player's Handbook or Dungeon Master's Guide, whichever one, what it's in and it talks about alignments and you've got chaotic good. And I could never quite. I thought that's weird.
- [62:30]
C
Can't reconcile that.
- [62:32]
A
What's that? Because chaotic's bad, isn't it? And of course then you realize, oh no, it's nice in D and D, Chaos, chaotic is not good or evil. It's just more about an approach to life, isn't it? Yeah. The classic one is the chaos is good character is like Robin Hood, Kelsey Goodman, you're good, but you don't really follow rules. Whereas lawful good you do follow rules. Yeah, but chaotic in D and D is not, well, chaotic in advance. Advanced D and D isn't bad. But of course in basic D and D it is bad, isn't it? Because basic D and D just have lawful neutral and chaos. And if you read the rules it says about old school essentials does the same thing. It says chaotic characters are essentially untrustworthy, self selfish, all these bad things. But in advanced D and D, chaotic didn't quite mean that and then a Runequest. It felt really bad. In Runequest you wouldn't. I mean basically, indeed, you could play a chaotic character and get away with it, probably. In Runequest you couldn't really. You wouldn't play a chaotic character. That was absolutely not the thing you did.
- [63:41]
C
Yeah. Well, to break it down, what I thought was we do is to put this screen in front of us, this games master screen, to hide my secrets. I've got a D8. Of course, a D8 is a number of chaos and I'm going to roll on this table apparently at random because
- [64:03]
A
that's the other chaotic as well.
- [64:05]
C
That is chaotic. And I think that's part of the reason why chaos is such a theme of role playing is because of the dice. It's because.
- [64:13]
A
Yeah, it's integral. Integral to role playing. Because you can't guarantee that you will succeed.
- [64:20]
C
Yes, yeah.
- [64:21]
A
In a role playing game there's always a chance element to it, isn't there?
- [64:24]
B
Yeah.
- [64:25]
C
Chaos is at the heart of all games. So let's put this up here and it'll just allow us to have a bit of a thematic approach subject. All right. Okay. I'm gonna roll here and the first thing I roll is an eight and. Oh, it's cosmic chaos.
- [64:42]
A
Cosmic chaos. Chaos.
- [64:44]
C
We're game worlds, isn't it? Where the world is dividing between law and chaos.
- [64:50]
A
Yeah.
- [64:51]
C
Stormbringer. Yeah.
- [64:52]
A
DCC is like that, isn't it? Although a lot of it is D and D based, the way it deals with alignment is slightly different from D and D in that lawful neutral chaos. But chaos in DCC is not necessarily evil, it's just a different approach. The world can be evil, but equally law lawful can be evil. Evil as well. Doesn't make a moral distinction. It's just about these different approaches to life. But it does behind that in DCC there is this kind of cosmic struggle that appears in a lot of the scenarios. You get a lot of this kind of thing in some of the modules they do about cosmic forces battling and using humans as pawns, which is very more cocky, innit? It's very more cocky.
- [65:31]
C
Like Alric more cocky than I explores Lovecraft as well, isn't it? That the cosmic indifference of the world that you live in, a world that doesn't care about you.
- [65:42]
D
It.
- [65:42]
C
Yeah, I suppose all role playing games in a sense, written from a hobbying point of view for play Cloud.
- [65:50]
A
Nasty, brutish and sharp.
- [65:52]
C
Yeah, yeah. A nasty Brutus and sharp.
- [65:57]
A
Something like that. Yeah.
- [65:59]
C
Yeah. Because you think when you roll the Character. That's what you face, isn't it? Your encounters that you're going to do.
- [66:05]
A
Yeah, it's really unpleasant. Some violence and possibly she. All.
- [66:10]
C
Yeah. In all contexts. Whether you're an investigator.
- [66:13]
A
Yeah. Or down a dungeon or. Yeah, anything. It can be like that, can't you? Role playing. Yeah.
- [66:20]
C
So the fundamental of role playing games, cosmically speaking, is chaotic and you're up
- [66:30]
A
against those kind of forces.
- [66:32]
B
Yeah.
- [66:33]
D
What do you think?
- [66:33]
C
Think about the moment playing unknown armies. And because it's set in the real world and it kind of keeps bleeding into the real world, it does make you reflect on chaos as a political narrative at the moment. It's like the world we're led to believe is a lot more cockier in the sense that you've got these disruptive world leaders who believe in this madman. Strategic.
- [67:00]
A
Yeah.
- [67:00]
C
And what they're trying to break up is the liberal world order that is based on order and liberal institutions that preserve democracy. And somehow they're the disruptors who have come in to.
- [67:14]
A
It's a funny thing though, that, isn't it? Because you could equally say that the forces of law are disruptive, couldn't you? I mean, like liberalism is. What's liberal? Is liberalism a law or a chaotic force?
- [67:28]
C
I suppose that's when it's question.
- [67:29]
A
It's one of those questions you can flip around because you could say lawful is about fairness and justice and that
- [67:38]
C
kind of thing, but it's presented in more code. It's like a fascist system. Yeah, exactly.
- [67:43]
A
It can be also presented as being authoritarian and rules laid, whereas chaos can be perceived as liberal and more open to all different types of. Types of lifestyle.
- [67:55]
C
But political discourse now is that, you know, this idea of a shock doctrine and the idea that Putin and people like Bannon profess, kind of have chaos people, stimulate economies because it's this chaotic thing. And then people are a bit more comfortable about authoritarianism.
- [68:16]
A
And that's why dcc, more than any game speaking, is a Cortez represents reality more than any other game. Because chaos can be good and bad, law can be good and bad. That's what DCC is very explicit about. It says, just because you're chaotic doesn't mean you're bad, just your approach to life. So there can be bad, chaotic people. Maybe Steve Bannon's a bad, chaotic person. But then some people who are into liberal art ideas, you know, accommodate different lifestyles, are chaotic people as well. Is the regime in Saudi Arabia lawful, with all its restrictions on lifestyle? Is that lawful? Probably is, isn't it? People say DCC is bonkers, but I'm going to think it's a philosophy. A philosophy for life. I'm more convinced. Oh, by the minute. That it is the way to live your life.
- [69:08]
C
Is there any room for the technocrats though, in the dcc? The Lawful deck?
- [69:15]
A
Lawful. Wouldn't they be lawful? But they're not. It doesn't necessarily mean it good or bad. Morality is really removed from it. It's an approach to life, isn't it? That's what, that's what's odd about it in gaming, I think in the. In gaming brings us back to gaming rather than international politics. But that's the odd thing about gaming is that in different games it means different things. Yeah. So it is very much a thing in gaming.
- [69:41]
C
Yeah, it's.
- [69:42]
A
But it's.
- [69:43]
C
It's a fundamental.
- [69:43]
A
It's a fundamental. But it means very different things in different games. I think what it actually means, it sort of means the same thing, but equally quite different in different games. I. I would say. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Like I said, what, what you. Chaos in RuneQuest versus chaos in basic D&D versus chaos in advanced D&D versus chaos in DCC, just to use those examples, versus maybe chaos in Warhammer are all quite. I would say are all quite different. Yeah. Although there are parallels because I'd say maybe Chaos in Warhammer is almost comparable to Chaos in runeclass in that it's generally just a bad thing, it's kind of tentacular, cause certain death, don't want to mess with it. But in other games it doesn't quite mean the same thing.
- [70:38]
D
Yeah.
- [70:38]
C
It becomes an idea of corruption and pestilence, those kind of things. Yeah.
- [70:49]
A
And I think we're going back to like Moorcock. What's interesting about it is if you can trace the idea back to Moorcock, it has kind of changed, doesn't it? It's games have used it in different ways. They're not always closely. They don't all. They don't always closely Mirror Mox. No literature. And what he thinks of Law and Chaos, what his representation of it is.
- [71:16]
C
Yeah. Because like Thomas said in Warhammer, gradually over time, in different iterations, Chaos has become an all consuming cosmic idea.
- [71:28]
A
Yeah.
- [71:28]
C
Whereas law and the balance and all that is kind of just because it's not as interesting.
- [71:36]
A
Yeah, that's true, isn't it? That is true. Because again, I think I'd love if you could do a statistical analysis of people's favored alignments in D and D. I Would hazard a guess that Chaotic Good is the one everyone calls for.
- [71:55]
C
Well, let's. Let's see.
- [71:56]
A
I'm going to roll on the dice at that. Okay.
- [71:59]
C
I roll a two. And conveniently it is alignment.
- [72:03]
A
That's not very random, is it? The forces of law affecting your dads. But it's convenient and let's go with it.
- [72:13]
C
I've not fudged that at all.
- [72:14]
B
No, no, no.
- [72:15]
C
I don't feel.
- [72:15]
A
I never. I've never thought for a minute that you're fudging those dice rolls. We know on podcasts. No, I trust you completely.
- [72:24]
C
So alignment comes into like D and D from War Gaming. Yeah, yeah. And in tecml, which is like one of the earliest role playing games, lawful and chaotic were two opposing. A lineage that you could take and that became refined. And Dungeon Master's Guide, as we've said previously, hell of a big deal of a line.
- [72:49]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [72:50]
A
And blitz it all different way. Yeah.
- [72:53]
C
And when we were trying to decode AD&D from Dungeons and Master's Guide alone, because that's all time in hand.
- [73:00]
A
Yeah.
- [73:01]
C
We didn't have a player's handbook anyway. Our characters were really composed of that alignment, weren't we? We spent a long time pouring over alignment to try and create our characters because that's all we had.
- [73:13]
A
Yeah. And it's a weirdly philosophical bit of the rule book in it because it kind of explains these different, you know, alignment and different, like, heavens you go to when you die kind of thing. You have your hunting grounds on Valhalla, all this kind of thing. It's like a very weird bit of the game in it. Like you say, we poured over it, but they do as well. I mean, they make a. Like you say, make a big deal of it.
- [73:35]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Chaos is alignment, as you said. It gives you a bit of license, doesn't it, to be a bit more free and easier with your morality. It kind of gives you a pass.
- [73:48]
A
Yeah, I suppose it does, doesn't it? It gives you a. Gives you. I suppose it's always. I think what it is, is weird though, because when you look at that alignment in AD&D, at first, it's quite a seductive idea because you like the idea. Oh, chaotic good. Oh, well, that means I could be like a good guy, but I don't have to worry about getting in a fight or doing something a little bit dodgy. But then I suppose it kind of falls apart then, doesn't it? Because he almost like confuses, uses law and Chaos, tries to Attach law and chaos to morality. You know, it's a. I don't know. I can't. Can't put my finger on it. It's a peculiar thing.
- [74:28]
C
It's kind of separating the as you say, the happy rogue from the disciplined etiquette of a samurai or a knight.
- [74:38]
A
Yes.
- [74:39]
C
That somehow you're not abandoned by any court behavior. You've got this kind of freedom to make a judgment as you. But the problem.
- [74:47]
A
The problem with the though is that whilst you could say look a. The lawful good character, the death Cove, some knighty shining armors. Lawful good. The problem with the chaotic good characters. But it's almost like you're just saying, well, anything goes. As long as you're vaguely good. Anything goes. It seems like a bit of a cop out, doesn't it? What you're saying is I'm chaotic good. Oh well, maybe I would execute the prisons. Maybe I would do this because, you know, they deserve it for the greater good. For the greater good. Yeah. And I'm like a bit of a maverick kind of character. And you think using chaos as a way of.
- [75:23]
C
As a shield.
- [75:24]
A
As a shield. Oh, you. You're using Chaos be a player character. You play a lawful character. It makes being a player character more difficult because you have to abide by certain codes.
- [75:36]
C
I would say that all players are chaotic, aren't they?
- [75:40]
A
Well, that's kind of what I mean. Yeah, that.
- [75:42]
D
That's the.
- [75:42]
A
That's the thing that being. Being chaotic if it gives you permit. If you play a lawful character, you're putting certain restrictions on yourself that may not be beneficial to you strategically as a player. If you choose chaotic, it's like you're given license to do all the strategic things you want because. And then justify it somehow in D and D, I think Whereas that's where the DCC model is better because what DCC models say door again go. But what he's saying and I suppose Stormbre as well does a similar thing. If you just have law and chaos, what it's saying is these are approaches to life, but morality is still your morality.
- [76:31]
C
Does that kind of alignment idea apply to other games other than those kind of fantasy D and D settings?
- [76:41]
A
There's a really, really does it. Okay, it does. It does in some ways mean like RuneQuest isn't it? RuneQuest does it sneakily does it by
- [76:48]
C
the back door with fans like Colts.
- [76:50]
A
So when we played Ringquest back in there.
- [76:52]
C
But there's a Pendragon as well. Is that you're bound by all these orders and all these etiquettes and all these things that you have to do, but you're kind of pushing against them because the situations that you put into.
- [77:03]
A
Yeah.
- [77:04]
C
Are incompatible with the chord that you've got. And incompatible. As you say, as you. As a player, you want to behave in a particular way.
- [77:12]
A
But Pendragon, is it actually games that, doesn't it? Yeah. So a lot of games don't game how you behave. They just give you a bit of a tip with an alignment. But Pendragon actually sets out as part of the game, doesn't it? Yeah. You know, you can be cheer style, bust, pull or whatever. You know, you can be one or the other and you have to roll because your character has to make a test to stop them behaving in a particular way. Right. It's kind of interesting. There's not many games to that. But then he sat low on Chaos. Is that chaos?
- [77:44]
C
If on those kind of continuums where you've got the dice spread between one or the other one is more lawful,
- [77:52]
A
one is more chaos. Yeah, one's slightly more. Yeah, one's following a code of chivalry and the other one is more human. What you really want to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it splits it. So you could be 10 on Egypt, you could be 5 on one, 15 on the other. Yeah, yeah. You're more likely to falter and become acting a more human way. Yeah. So I suppose. Yeah, yeah, I suppose that is another way of looking at it, isn't it, Pendragon? Maybe that is the law and chaos.
- [78:18]
C
Ignore this. It's a rug covering a hole. Let me roll again. This is a seven. And this is. This is chaos as an entity. So, I mean, here is where, you know, you got the gods, demons, mutations. But Chaos is an antagonist. Prime example of this is called Cthulhu. Is it where.
- [78:42]
A
Yeah.
- [78:43]
C
You know, part of your. You as an investigator is there's an indifferent forces at work trying to disrupt and change our way of life.
- [78:56]
A
Are there chaotic ones or are they just neutral? Are they just neutral forces like you say? They're indifferent.
- [79:06]
C
They have a problem with indifference. Well, I have a problem with difference.
- [79:12]
A
Well, yeah, yeah, I'm very putting the question out there. I just. I just think the way that Cthulhu's always kind of come across to me is the idea that these entities don't care about human. But in the.
- [79:25]
C
And fairly often, so you get called Cthulhu. And as you know, running Fall of Delta green and the NPCs are usually described as being of A nature where they're indifferent.
- [79:37]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [79:38]
C
And treat others as, like, insects.
- [79:41]
A
Okay, yes, that's. That's the standard Cthulhu game.
- [79:45]
C
But in a game, the very last thing you need in NPC to me is indifference to the npc.
- [79:54]
A
Yeah, true.
- [79:56]
C
Well, it's because you want them to interact, don't you? So if I am now on a podcast with you and I'm indifferent, I think like a cockroach that you. I. I'm a cockroach.
- [80:10]
A
Okay.
- [80:10]
C
I'm talking to you.
- [80:11]
D
Yeah.
- [80:12]
C
I don't care about your opinions, but I would think.
- [80:15]
A
God, a cockroach. But I wouldn't be talking to you in the pub. I've had one too many.
- [80:22]
D
But.
- [80:23]
C
But I wouldn't be talking to you, would it? Well, because I'd be ignoring you.
- [80:28]
A
But on that basis, though, are the forces of Cthulhu lawful? Okay, what are they lawful in that they're just working against humanity without any real care for humanity, doing their own thing. You look at something like Runequest or maybe war. Maybe Warhammers are better. Because some of the chaos stuff in Warhammer is a big Cthulhu, isn't it? Yeah, but it's. It's pitched as being. I think it's pitched in a way as being evil, isn't it? It is evil. Whereas in Cthulhu it's a threat to humanity. But is it evil or chaotic? I mean, generally, let's face it, General Cthulhu and cultists are quite organized. Yes, they're quite organized. Nice people. And the Goths are cosmically intelligent, supremely intelligent beings who are maybe second guessing humanity's every move. But it's not that chaotic, is it? Quite lawful, really. It's that thing of you're organized more like Steve Bannon. More lawful really, than chaos. Chaotic suggests, like, oh, all sorts of weird stuff. We are. We're powerful and evil, but we're disorganized.
- [81:47]
D
Well, let's get.
- [81:48]
C
Let's get on firmer ground then, because I. I feel like Chaos has got all the best tunes in terms of it looks. I mean.
- [81:58]
A
Yeah.
- [81:58]
C
The adversaries. Chaotic adversary. I mean, as we always come back to. And people kind of get irritated by this. But Runequest was our first game.
- [82:07]
A
Yeah.
- [82:07]
C
And part of the midheel. Whereas the monsters. And they have the chaos monsters and. Yeah, yeah. And as James Holloway says, that part of RPGs need adversaries, they need antagonists. And if chaos is an antagonist.
- [82:25]
A
Yeah.
- [82:27]
C
Is the best thing it takes.
- [82:28]
A
Well, I think that's why I think that's why it is such a prevalent thing, your role playing games. Because as Jim, that's very astute point, James. It's kind of stuck in me ever since I heard him say it. And it's kind of obvious, but it's not that obvious until someone points it out that, yeah, the games are defined by adversaries, aren't they? In almost all role playing games, you as players are up against something. So call Cthulhu chaos in Runequest, evil monsters in D and D or whatever. Whatever it is, doesn't matter what it is, suddenly you're up against, against these kind of forces that are to some extent inhuman, magical, monstrous and somewhere. And the games don't work without that. So you can see why the idea of chaos in different, slightly different forms has prospered and grown in role playing. Because it's a perfect antagonist, isn't it?
- [83:24]
C
And it allows that hybridization of ideas, isn't it? So. Or as soon as you say, oh, a scorpion man, you bring together, yeah, like two ideas.
- [83:36]
A
Unnatural chaos as there are men and there are scorpions. But when you have a scorpion man, that's chaos because chaos is bringing. Making something unnatural weird.
- [83:45]
C
Yes.
- [83:46]
A
Yeah.
- [83:47]
C
Let's roll again. Okay. This is number one, chaos as a mix mechanic, mechanical versions of chaos. So when I put this out to the grog squad on the Discord discard.
- [84:04]
A
Oh, we've got a bit of chaos discard.
- [84:07]
C
Yeah, yeah. On the, on Discord, people immediately assumed I was talking about chaos that happens around the table. So the fact that there's some random.
- [84:21]
A
An element.
- [84:21]
C
Yeah, some games promote that kind of unexpected result, that kind of. Everybody is finds fun because there's an element of unpredictability about it and it makes it more entertaining because the results are just off the scale, all that.
- [84:40]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [84:41]
C
So examples of that exploding dice in.
- [84:44]
A
Yeah.
- [84:44]
C
Salvage worlds. Yeah, yeah. You're going to mention DCC again, right?
- [84:48]
A
Well, I am. Because you can't really avoid that with, with something like that, can you? Because let's face it, there's a lot of tables in it. I say it's got fumbles and criticals. And the magic system is all about rolling on tables, isn't it?
- [85:01]
C
Yeah.
- [85:01]
A
And magic, all sorts of things can happen.
- [85:03]
C
And magic is chaotic, isn't it?
- [85:05]
A
Yeah, yeah. That's like.
- [85:06]
C
That breaks the game.
- [85:08]
A
Yeah.
- [85:09]
C
And in all games. But I think in DCC they make a great.
- [85:13]
A
Yeah. Big thing though is chaotic. But even, even like the tariff, magic is the same. You're all on tables I think so. It does an unexp element to it where it can be disappointing, it can fail, it can backfire, or it can be a really unexpectedly good success. So that unpredictability in there is kind of integral to dc if you remove that from dcc. I think I've said this before about the dying Earth version of DCC where turn it into a kind of fire and forget system. But I think it takes. It would remove an integral part of the game if you got rid of that game. Chaos is a huge part of dcc, I think. Yeah.
- [85:53]
C
One of the chaotic things mechanics can do is create unexpected successes with Esport index.
- [86:01]
A
But the other thing was like fumbles.
- [86:04]
C
And there's a kind of a strange feeling around the table. When you get close to a fumble.
- [86:11]
A
Yeah, Fumble. Something bad happens.
- [86:13]
B
The fumble.
- [86:14]
C
Fumbles are an example of chaotic. Is that a chaotic feature of games? When was the last time you had an entertaining fumble? Or are they just irritating now that we've got to the ripe old age of.
- [86:28]
A
They just annoy you.
- [86:30]
C
They just annoy you. Played a lot of RuneQuest last year. It just seemed that you fumble more than you think you fumble.
- [86:37]
A
Yeah. One of the most bizarre fumble I ever had in runecst. It wasn't that long ago, but it was when we played the Rainbow Mountain character. Cut both in his arms on. Yeah, it was impossible to do. How would he do that? It was one of the role.
- [86:50]
C
Hit self.
- [86:51]
A
Hit self, roll thrice on this table. The worst one. Roll thrice. I think it was arm strap brains. And then it was hit. Hit self, do maximum damage left arm. It was hit self, do maximum double right arm.
- [87:03]
C
Logistically, it's not. It's a chaotic. It's a chaotic occurrence that wouldn't be able to happen.
- [87:09]
A
Yeah. Just impossible to do. So that's probably the most. I mean, it wasn't sad. It was so ridiculous, you know, what can I say?
- [87:17]
C
But fumbles are an example, aren't they, of a deliberate disruption of the game. But it's to make failure entertaining.
- [87:29]
A
Yeah. Well, Dragon Bear has got fumbles in, hasn't it? It's got magical backfires that are quite brutal, aren't they?
- [87:36]
B
Yeah, terrible.
- [87:37]
A
We were playing it and you do get one where you were blind to something for 1d4 days and you thought, oh, I'll blind up the rest of the game because it's only like a 1:1 shot. Yeah, I suppose that's the thing, isn't it? Fumbles. Fumbles are the most chaotic thing because you've got to somehow get out of the predicament they might be. But with.
- [87:55]
B
Yeah.
- [87:56]
A
So your weapon break might not be that bad. But like that in Dragon Bear. Your spell backfires and you end up flying for the rest of the session. You. Everyone's got a massive problem. Whereas critical tables just give you a benefit. They just give you benefit. Yeah.
- [88:13]
C
Which is great.
- [88:14]
A
Double damage or triple damage. But yeah. Fumbles.
- [88:19]
C
I. I think when it adds more chaos. Yeah. I think when randomized chaos that games designers overplay their hand with.
- [88:27]
A
Fumble.
- [88:28]
C
And whilst I might have found it entertaining back in the day to use one of our phrases, I don't know if I find it as entertaining now. I just find it frustrating.
- [88:38]
A
I know what you mean because like did the DCC backfire the patron tents and backfires in. In some of the magic you do look at read some and think I hope I don't ever get that one that bad.
- [88:49]
C
You say don't you that part of your joy of discovering DCC is that you do have those moments where the unexpected happening.
- [88:59]
A
Yeah. So I predict it's not necessarily. It's predictable within certain parameters. But then there's moments where something happens and then you find yourself rolling on the table to put you in a slightly different place than you were in 30 seconds ago. Because I wasn't. I've come to you.
- [89:12]
C
Yeah. Yeah. So that's it. The end of the table.
- [89:16]
A
Yeah. I tell you, never roll the same number twice. Well done.
- [89:20]
C
And yeah, it's good.
- [89:22]
A
That Good dice now. Yeah.
- [89:24]
C
Good quality dice. And do you know what I am man? It's the fact that we recorded this in the middle of chaos happening around.
- [89:31]
A
Chaos happening around the chaotic pub. The door going. Singing, waiting. Was it singing with these?
- [89:38]
C
Yeah. Some light pop. Light pole and the toilet door banging.
- [89:42]
A
Like. See as is. As is almost a podcast tradition.
- [89:46]
C
Yeah.
- [89:46]
A
But we always seem to be sat next to some toilet door that's banging.
- [89:52]
C
Cheers, Blythe.
- [89:54]
A
She around? Goodbye.
- [89:57]
C
There isn't another bit.
- [89:58]
B
Thanks to Thomas for coming to Manchester
- [90:00]
C
to speak to us.
- [90:01]
B
It was a great evening. We don't do many in person chats,
- [90:05]
C
so it was lovely to have a
- [90:07]
B
conversation in an actual room and have the chance to go for a beer after afterwards. I learned a lot from Thomas. If you want to find out more. He has one of those substacks which he updates on a pretty regular basis. And recently he's taken inspiration from our exercise of finding five objects that define the history of RPGs. He's turned his attention to Warhammer 40K and looked at some of the artifacts that defined the creation of the game and the culture of the game around it. I find these stories fascinating how the collaborators and the models and the competition with other games have endlessly inspired the development in different games. It's full of rich stories. Recently I've been on the Smart Party podcast as stuntmen with co host Gary interviewing the supremely talented Tim Denny. He has recently taken everything you love about Blades in the Dark RPG and brought it to 1968 with Blades 68. It's Dusk Vol. But the sky is blue and the Avengers meet the craze with a dash of Ocean's Eleven in a brilliantly invented reskinning of John Harper's original vision. I put a link to the podcast in the Show Notes Blades 68 is currently on Backer Kit, so I'll put a link to that too. At the time of recording, things are gearing up for Virtual Grog Meet our online version of our usual meetup. There is still a chance to submit games and you can see a preview of everything we've had so far in the Discord Channel. Let me know if you want an invite. Another good way of keeping up to date is to follow us on Patreon. You don't need to make a tip in the beret, but we'd be very grateful if you did. It keeps the show on the road and inspires us to continue. And we've got some thanks to give to new patrons. And joining us at the Fancy Poof
- [92:13]
C
level is Kathy Rhubarb, Terry Dodson. Thank you.
- [92:18]
B
The following members have recently joined at so far so Good level and above, and I like to give a virtual gift from them. My table rolled, apparently at random from a game relevant to our discussion. And this time we're walking through poison thorn woods in Dori Star, the Land of Doom. So let's roll on this Random encounter table. So Robert Poynton, he gets 80 a stoor worm. A stoor worm.
- [92:53]
A
Thanks for Robert.
- [92:55]
B
Ian Martin, 13 Cockatrice oh, I wanna meet one of them in the woods. And Mark Hebden, 33, a Jacko bear. Oh, nice one. I mean, if you're gonna get hypnotized and killed by something and we've got M. Heasthope, 28, a lunar merchant. Yeah, duck.
- [93:20]
A
Trust them.
- [93:21]
B
Count your fingers after you've shaken your hands, you've probably got eight. Next is J. Moldenhauer Salazar, 10 a gawp.
- [93:34]
C
And Claire W. Oh to wrote a
- [93:38]
B
hundred on this and that's a special encounter. An encounter with Ralzac, Arcs Face and a new member of at the High Back chair level is Lance Hunter, and he's got 66 a poisoned bush. If you've been missed off the list, or your name has been mangled, or you just feel like you'd like a shout out because it's been such a long time since you've had a mention, then please do let me know. Thanks for making comments. Comments under this podcast on the site grognardfiles.com and elsewhere.
- [94:18]
C
If you could make a review as well.
- [94:20]
B
And please, please share the podcast to people who you think might like it. Why not pass it on right now? Anyway, thanks for listening and adios amigos. Sam.
- [95:06]
D
It.
- [96:23]
B
It.