Liminal (with Paul Mitchener) Ep.63 (Part 1)

Summary

THE GROGNARD FILES – Episode 63: Liminal (with Paul Mitchener) Pt. 1

Date: July 29, 2023
Host: Dirk the Dice
Guests: Blythe, Eddie, and Dr. Paul Mitchener (creator of Liminal)

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Overview

This episode of The GROGNARD Files dives deep into Liminal, a modern British urban fantasy RPG published in 2019 and designed by Dr. Paul Mitchener. Unlike the usual nostalgic exploration of games past, the hosts focus on their tentative first explorations of Liminal—learning about the system, the setting, and their initial play experiences. The episode features a group discussion, thematic comparisons to other RPGs in the urban fantasy genre, and an insightful interview with Paul Mitchener covering inspirations, mechanics, and British folkloric influences.

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Main Discussion: First Impressions and Context

[00:17–17:00]

Entering the Urban Fantasy Genre

• Dirk sets the scene for this "speed rating" episode, emphasizing their new experience with Liminal—a departure from their usual retro focus.
• Liminal stands out because of its urban fantasy setting, specifically grounded in contemporary Britain and rich in native folklore.
• Contrasts with the 80s: The hosts reflect that in their early days, "urban fantasy" games were rare, with Liminal drawing comparisons to titles like Vampire: the Masquerade and Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but with a uniquely British, subtler tone.

"It's more in the same vicinity as things like Vampire the Masquerade and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. This idea that monsters walk amongst us." — Dirk ([06:45])

Britishness & Folklore

• Liminal appeals to UK gamers through its authentic integration of British myths, localities, and familiar contributors from the British indie RPG scene.
• Its use of British folklore and local flavor is highlighted repeatedly as a key strength.

"It uses British folklore in the context of the modern United Kingdom... and the artwork by Jason Beneke is fabulous and creates the mood of the setting perfectly." — Dirk ([02:07])

Comparison with Other Urban Fantasy Games

• Monster of the Week, Vaesen, and similar games are discussed, with Liminal positioned as more subtle, less pulpy, and especially British in tone and detail.
• The group admits initial hesitation about Liminal because they already owned similar games, but found it distinct in practice.

"Monster of the Week is very American and has a TV show feel... Liminal is very British in its approach. It's a bit more subtle." — Blythe ([09:04])

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What Makes Liminal Stand Out?

[17:00–25:44]

Dirk’s Three Highlights

1. Will as a Mechanic

   • Liminal uses a 2d6 + modifiers system (similar to Traveller), but its "Will" system stands out as a key player resource.
   • Will allows players to manipulate dice rolls, soak damage, and activate abilities ("traits")—it's more than just a luck pool; it's central to tension and pacing.
   • The group notes how Will management shapes tactical choices and narrative focus.

   "Will is a key resource because some traits are activated by Will... Will running out is going to be an important factor in the game." — Dirk ([19:24])

2. Factions

   • Rather than long-winded backstories, Liminal’s factions (like the Order of St. Bede and Council of Merlin) are concisely presented, with usable hooks for gameplay.
   • Each faction includes significant NPCs for immediate play relevance.

   "When you read it... it's presenting the different factions... only giving bits relevant to when you do it to the game." — Dirk ([11:15])

3. The Crew

   • Inspired by trends in games like Blades in the Dark; the "crew" mechanic offers shared resources and motivations, making diverse character groups more cohesive.
   • This feature helps avoid the usual "why are these people together?" question typical in investigator games.

   "The players can create their crew and have some benefits as well. That can develop as the adventures go along. It gives a thematic reason to be together." — Dirk ([24:33])

Conciseness and Accessibility

• Liminal is praised for being compact and "packaged like a game," in contrast to games with setting bloat or "frustrated novelist" syndrome.
• The brevity and usability of faction write-ups and hooks make GMs’ prep lighter and more inspiring.

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Critiques & Challenges

[25:44–29:28]

Simplicity vs. Complexity

• Spot Rules: The downside to Liminal's simplicity: certain repeated actions (like staking vampires) lack explicit rules, leading to potential GM “house rule” headaches.
• The discussion explores possible ways to adapt, such as borrowing "boon/bane" dice from Traveller, but acknowledge risks in early, ill-advised rulings that can snowball.

"When you're doing these adjudications of pluses and minuses, they're a bit clumsy... sometimes you want a bit more." — Dirk ([28:20])

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Liminal’s Monster Menagerie

[29:28–31:39]

• The group’s favorite antagonists: vampires (classic), werewolves (room for more in Manchester!), and ghosts (underutilized in many games).
• Their in-play experience draws on familiar cinematic cliches (e.g., Hammer horror, Captain Kronos), making the game more approachable despite initial unfamiliarity with urban fantasy tropes.

"Ghosts are always under... undervalued a bit, aren't they?... But whenever you watch movies or read books that have ghosts, you thought, it's quite good ghost." — Blythe ([30:22])

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The Interview: Dr. Paul Mitchener on Liminal

[32:32–50:36]

The Pitch & Inspirations

[33:31]

• "It's modern day fantasy, set in the UK. So it's a UK where magicians are real, where werewolves, vampires, fairies, the whole shabbat, ghosts... It's all real, it's hidden. Most people either don't know about it or ignore it. You're caught up, you do know about it and you can't ignore it." — Dr. Paul Mitchener

Key Sources & Influences:

• British TV: Ultraviolet (late-90s, urban vampire hunting), Neverwhere (Neil Gaiman/Lenny Henry), and even police procedural elements (P Division).
• Fiction: Comics like Hellblazer, novels like War for the Oaks (Emma Bull), and Charles de Lint’s work.
• Real UK history and folklore: The importance of setting in local, recognizable places, mining the landscape, and British class structures runs through everything.

"One example of the factions is some of them come from logical thought... There's magicians, let's have a bunch of very academic wizards—make them posh boys. That's where the Council of Merlin came from." — Dr. Paul Mitchener ([37:23])

Mechanics: Accessibility, Will, and the Crew

• Mitchener wanted a simple, accessible system—2d6 + modifiers—with Will as a flexible resource to manipulate outcomes and power supernatural feats.
• The "crew" was specifically designed to reflect the British concept of "found family," giving characters a reason to stick together even as outsiders or misfits in the supernatural world.

"I wanted the crew to be important in the game... You’re making those choices as a group to almost bring the players together." — Dr. Paul Mitchener ([49:00])

Advice on Playing and Expanding Liminal

• Start locally: Every UK village/city has hidden folklore and historical strangeness you can tap for plots and adventure hooks.
• Use concise scenario "case files" to ease new GMs in—Liminal avoids "setting bloat" and starts play quickly.
• Liminal supplements highlighted: Werewolves of Britain (well-received), Pax Londinium (for London-based play), and the forthcoming Fairies and Folklore and Nova Castria (Newcastle).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the subtlety and accessibility of Liminal compared to other games:
  • "Liminal is packaged like a game... Some games, some settings, are written by frustrated novelists." — Blythe ([10:54])
• On the diverse inspirations:
  • "Ultraviolet is definitely inspirational viewing... Another British one would be Neverwhere, the Neil Gaiman thing..." — Dr. Paul Mitchener ([40:02])
• On finding new inspiration:
  • "It is kind of heartening that you can still find a game that excites you even though we’ve got loads of games, we've played loads of games..." — Blythe ([31:24])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:17–03:44 — Intro and episode setup
• 03:44–17:00 — First impressions, urban fantasy genre, British distinctiveness
• 17:00–25:44 — What makes Liminal stand out: Will, factions, crew
• 25:44–29:28 — Criticisms and rules simplicity vs. detail
• 29:28–31:39 — Monsters and personal favorite scenarios
• 32:32–50:36 — Interview with Dr. Paul Mitchener: history, design philosophy, supplements, mechanics
• 50:36–63:06 — Closing chatter: DCC Dying Earth, Twilight 2000, and thoughts on handling tone in games

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Additional Details & Episode Tone

• The conversation is relaxed, humorous, and self-aware, blending nostalgia with curiosity and honest assessment.
• Britishness and "bobbins" abound in style and delivery; affectionate ribbing and playful banter are frequent.
• The episode emphasizes the joy of discovering new games even as "grognards"—seasoned enthusiasts of the hobby.

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Summary for New Listeners

If you've not listened to this episode, you'll get:

• A rich, comparative look at the Liminal RPG through the eyes of both veteran players and its creator.
• Insights into what makes Liminal unique: accessible system, concise worldbuilding, and a deeply British, folklore-rich setting.
• Candid discussion of strengths and mechanical quirks—particularly the Will system and the importance of crew and factions.
• Concrete advice for new players/GMs on how to start, where to find inspiration, and which supplements to choose.
• A warm, witty tone that will appeal to anyone nostalgic for British RPG culture or looking for a thoughtful RPG podcast.

"Ramblers—let's get rambling."

Transcript

[Dirk]

Have you seen me Dice Bag the.

[Blythe]

Grognard Files hello, my name is Dirt.

[Host of Grognard Files]

The Dice and this is the Grognard Files podcast where we talk bobbins about tabletop RPGs from back in the day and today I'm coming live from my den here in the heart of the northwest of England. I'm complet and utterly surrounded by my stuff. New stuff, new stuff from the 90s. They said it would never happen, but here we are. The Grognard Files. We're slowly exploring a new decade. Slowly. Here on my right is the great library of RPGs and my grognard Files. There's a new stack gathering at the side of my chair, but I can still manage to do a three point turn on my chair with a bit of jiggling. Here on my left is the ridiculous homemade shrine to the actor Caroline Munro. I'll just give it a tap. Ah yes, the Eternal Champion has appeared as Carla the Witch from Captain Kronos, Vampire Hunter as you'll discover during this podcast, our resident rules lawyer Blythe is currently playing her role in a series of adventures run by armchair adventurer Eddie. We're traveling through time and space episode by episode on the hunt for vampires. Eddie is using the Open Quest derived Rules Renaissance. It's opened our eyes to a new genre that we've not really experienced in gaming previously Urban fantasy. Unlike other episodes where we are reflective about the games we used to play and returning to them, in this one you can join us as we're on the cusp of starting to play it, learning more about it, working out what we like about it and which direction to go as we play more Liminal was first published in 2019 on the back of a successful Kickstarter by its creator Paul Michener. It's the game set in a modern world about the people who are caught between the ordinary and the extraordinary. If you've listened to the previous episodes of the Grognard Files, where members of the Grog squad have talked about their first, last and everything when it comes to gaming. Liminal appeared as the last and everything for a number of people. It has a particular appeal to UK gamers as it uses British folklore in the context of the modern United Kingdom. It also uses contributors who are familiar from the UK gaming scene Guy Milner, Becky Anderson, Neil Gao, Richard August, Sue Savage, Paul Budowski and many others. And the artwork by Jason Beneke is fabulous and creates the mood of the setting perfectly. Join me and Blithey as we tentatively work our way through the Game in the room of role playing. RUMBLING we hope it captures your imagination like it's caught ours. Dr. Mitch, the creator of the game, is also here talking about his influences and some key hooks to generating your own liminal case files. We've got a bit of closing time chatter about other games that we're preparing and I'll be back at the end with some thanks and notices. Until then, ramblers. Let's get rambling.

[Dirk]

Speed rating. Welcome to the room of role playing.

[Host of Grognard Files]

Rambling.

[Dirk]

I've got Blithey with me.

[Eddie]

Hello there, Blythe.

[Blythe]

Hello, Dirk.

[Dirk]

And we're back in the works kitchen again.

[Blythe]

All clear.

[Dirk]

So if you can hear some gurgling in the background, don't worry, it's just the employees.

[Blythe]

It's not the boiler.

[Dirk]

Why not?

[Blythe]

Boiler's broke.

[Unidentified Participant]

What's wrong?

[Blythe]

Yesterday, I don't, I don't know why, I just stopped working. But a man came and we need a new boiler. It's, it's a sealed unit, he said, and it just needs, it needs replacing and it goes to show, doesn't it, a role playing in real life don't really overlap if it's role playing. Yeah. He said, what's your, I don't know, mechanic skill or boiler maintenance skill or.

[Dirk]

If you play side world. There is actually a plumbing skill.

[Blythe]

There is a plumbing. Yeah, but, but it's none of those things.

[Eddie]

It's admin.

[Blythe]

It's an admin skill because he just orders a new one and all his tools and everything said, oh no, you.

[Eddie]

Just need a new one.

[Dirk]

They have disrepair, this kitchen.

[Unidentified Participant]

A.

[Dirk]

There's a draw front.

[Blythe]

Yeah, the draw front's missing, the ball is broken. These conditions we have to work in. Yeah.

[Dirk]

This is a speed rating, which means that we're going to look at a game for an intense half an hour, concentrate on one particular game and that game is going to be Liminal, which we've only just started playing recently, haven't we? It's a game that's been around but not played before.

[Blythe]

Yeah, it's been around and much, much talked about, hasn't it? And we've, we've only just got around to playing it. Cutting edge podcast.

[Dirk]

Yeah, obviously we're in nostalgia based podcast. I was trying to go back and think were there any equivalents to this kind of stuff back in 80s, back in the day? Certainly there wasn't anything that we played.

[Blythe]

No, I, I, and I think this is, yeah, it's interesting question that, isn't it? Because what would you describe it? Urban fantasy Urban fantasies. So it's set in the. The real world, the modern world, effectively. And yet it's the thing of. There are vampires and wolves and ghosts and the fae and all these kind of things in. In existence. Secretly in existence, in the world. So that's a common thing in quite a lot of games now, isn't it? But back in the 80s, I'm not sure Call of Cthulhu doesn't count because that's a. Has a different kind of feel to it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[Dirk]

Because it's quite precise in its genre elements, isn't it? And I was then thinking maybe in the entire genre fiction, it only emerged in the 90s because I think it.

[Blythe]

Emerged when we stopped reading that kind of thing. I mean, we read a lot of science fiction and fantasy in the 80s and then we start. We moved on to other types of fiction, didn't we? Probably that urban fantasy emerged, didn't it? We. We stuff. So it never quite connected with us, did it?

[Dirk]

No. I mean, my Go Wood. I remember reading.

[Blythe]

That's a. Yeah, that's a similar. Yeah.

[Dirk]

But I think this is more about. It's more in the same vicinity as things like Vampire the Masquerade and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. This idea that the Monst monsters walk amongst us.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

And they're having their own conflicts.

[Blythe]

Yeah, yeah. That world within worlds kind of thing. Yeah. But it kind of liminally calls it a hidden world, doesn't it? So it's this hidden world. And I suppose as well, in Liminal and in a lot of these urban fans things, you can be a magician as well, can't you? So you can be one of these to a point, depending on the type of game you're playing. But you can be one of these hidden people as well, can't you? Yeah. Which again, is a bit different from a Thargo Wood.

[Dirk]

But there are games like that now and, you know, people might not realize it, but this. There's a theme running.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

We've covered Monster of the Week.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

Previous been rating. We've covered Vasa Basin.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

And Liminal is part of that.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

Type of game.

[Blythe]

I have a confession to make. The really Liminal. Because I. Up until now, I've always ignored it a bit because I thought, well, I've got Monster of the Week and I've got this. Why do I need another game like that?

[Unidentified Participant]

Yeah.

[Blythe]

So I've always sort of. Although people say it's very good, always kind of never really looked beyond the COVID I did play it A couple of years ago, Sue Savage ran a game for. I think he was the good friends of Jackson Elias. Convention was online and I did enjoy it, I enjoyed it, but I've never really looked at it because I thought, well, I've got some of my things. That said, having. Having looked at it now, I do think it's very, very good. It's excellent and it is a bit different from those games. Yeah, yeah, that's, you know.

[Unidentified Participant]

Oh, well.

[Dirk]

I remember picking it up at UK Games Expo a few years ago and that's exactly what he said. Well, it's Monster of the Week, isn't it?

[Blythe]

But it's not, is it?

[Unidentified Participant]

It's not.

[Blythe]

It's not really, because Monster Week is very. A bit pulpit and it's very much. And he said, Mon is kind of very American. I think it's American game and it has an American feel to it, doesn't it? It has like a TV show feel to it. That's the whole point, isn't it?

[Dirk]

It's like.

[Blythe]

It is more like Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Whereas Liminal, he's very British in its approach. It's a bit more subtle, I suppose, the Monster the Week. Yeah.

[Dirk]

And that subtlety is something that struck me running the game and, you know, we'll perhaps talk a bit more about this later on. But I. I didn't. I. When I first played it, though, because we did it in two session. One Shot Club. In two sessions.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

And the first time I thought, is it too subtle for me? Because I quite enjoy the lurid nature and vividness of Monster of the Week, but this is dialed down a lot. It's a lot more parochial, like, say, this. Very British.

[Blythe]

Yes.

[Dirk]

And the way that the monsters or the fair or the hidden reveal themselves is a lot subtler.

[Blythe]

Yeah, I would agree. And I think the other thing that put me off it a bit, and this isn't the game's fault, is the idea of getting into another setting and another world and the effort that that takes. So we've played a lot of games, got a lot of games on our shelves and sometimes I look at a game and think, so this. I thought it's this liminal thing is. Is it like a setting with. With all sorts of history bits and pieces that I'm going to have to get my head around a bit like the experience I had with Cult. I bought Cult.

[Unidentified Participant]

Yeah.

[Blythe]

Because I played Cult against you, Savage on Cult and I really enjoyed playing it. But when I got the rules, the background is just. Oh, you just. You Think, oh, I've got the time for this. I have not got the time for it. But what's really good about Liminal is it's very concise and compact, isn't it?

[Dirk]

Yes.

[Blythe]

It tells you what you need to know to run the game and you can get on with it. It's packaged and this is going to sound strange. It's packaged like a game. Yeah, it is again, but some games, some settings of games are not packaged like that. It's like they're written by frustrated novelists.

[Dirk]

Yes.

[Blythe]

Who are giving you all this guff that it repels me a bit from the game. It makes me think, oh, I can't be bothered with, you know, I've got.

[Eddie]

A time for it.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

Because when you read it this and it's present and representing the different factions, the Order of St. Bede or Council of Merlin, it is only giving you bits that are going to be relevant to when you do it to the game.

[Blythe]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dirk]

And similarly it talks about some of the cities or locations in the UK and it is inspiring because it pointing to some of the folklore that is from that area and how you might bring that into. Again, like say it's not getting too carried away with telling you loads and loads of stuff.

[Blythe]

No, it's not got a, a 50 page chapter on the history of the vampires or the history of the werewolves in Britain or the history of the Order of St. Bead or that kind of thing. It doesn't go on and on and on. It just gives you a paragraph or two and you read the paragraph and you think, oh yeah, okay, I get that. I get what these guys are up to. I get that. I'll go with that. And I can build some. I can build an adventure around it. Yeah, that's, that's re. A really good thing actually. More of that kind of thing in games, I think.

[Dirk]

More of it. And the other thing that it does as well with the factions is give you an NPC who is part of that faction. So you've got an idea, you already got somebody.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

That the players can hook into or get introduced to that.

[Blythe]

Yeah, but that, but that thought before I looked at the rule, that thought that it was gonna be another long rambling history of the hidden world in Britain, the factions of this and that, like some games do. Yeah, it put me off it. I just thought, no, I can't, I can't. I've got the headspace to deal with another setting. I've enough settings in my head, I've got the Third Imperium Glorantha, the Weird West. I've got all this stuff in my head, I can't. There's not a time.

[Dirk]

But I. I do think that part of it is because it is a genre that probably unfamiliar to me. It's not. It's not one that I would go out of my way. I've read one of the Rivers of London books. I didn't particularly get on with it and I don't really read that urban fantasy, urban horror stuff. Yeah. I saw a lot of it when we got into. Back into gaming like Dresden Files and as you said, Vampire, the Masquerade and I'm not. I. I think part of the. The subtlety of it is I don't have the cliches to use or to pull out of my hat when we're playing because they're unfamiliar to me. Whereas if it Monster of the Week they are very familiar to me.

[Blythe]

It's interesting that, isn't it? It's almost like a hidden element of gaming, isn't it? That if you are familiar with the cliches and the style of it, you can get into it. So it's like going back something like the Weird west for Deadlands because we know you know all about western, you just latch into it immediately. Immediately easy to run. Whereas you're right, urban fantasy stuff is something we're not familiar with and therefore does feel you're a few steps removed from it almost and connecting with it feels a bit. A bit more difficult maybe than.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Blythe]

All the genres that you are familiar with.

[Interviewer]

The way into it for me and.

[Dirk]

The reason why I picked it up off my shelf, it being there for quite some time is really down to Eddie and we've been playing face to face.

[Unidentified Participant]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

And he's been running a Captain Kronos series of adventures and they've. It's Vampire bunting. Is it? Yeah. You're playing Carla Caroline Monroe. I mean that works. I don't know, maybe that's it. It's a bit weird to begin with.

[Blythe]

And it's a role playing game, isn't it? Yeah, it's not. I'm not Carol Monroe. I mean, I know you possibly wish I were well recorded. Recorded this with Carolyn Monroe instead of me.

[Dirk]

That's the difficulty of with it when we're playing I'm. And I'm Captain Cronos Grosch, the companion. He's like an alchemist.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

It's been good because those cliches have been there because he's transported. We were Starting off in medieval England, then we were in 70s England, transported to.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Blythe]

Time traveling vampire hunters, aren't we? Yeah, yeah.

[Dirk]

And then last time we were in Victorian, in England. He's really brought it to life and really bringing out the hammer horror stuff of it. Yeah.

[Blythe]

And I suppose we kind. We've engaged with it through those cliches as well, because you know the film and you know all the characters through the film and therefore you connect with it.

[Dirk]

And that's what attracted me to getting liminal down. Because it is that world. It is that sense. It gave me a way of appreciating, as you say, the Englishness is very much part of it, isn't it? And that a bit of gothic and a bit of that sense of. Of hauntology, which is. That's. That's something that's emerged over the last few years, isn't it? That idea that the countryside or urban areas, the spaces in between.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

May have stories to tell and.

[Blythe]

Yeah. And quite an appealing concept as well. Appealing concept, as we said earlier. Different from Monterey, different from verse and similar. But it is still notably different, I think.

[Dirk]

Yeah.

[Blythe]

And that's what's quite appealing about it. So we've run it. You've run it. I played it a few times. You've run it. So I think we should turn the tables given that you've run it.

[Eddie]

What.

[Blythe]

What are the three things you like about Liberty?

[Dirk]

Right, the three things I like about it. So first one is mechanical element, which is the use of will. So I'm going to talk about that. Yeah, sorry.

[Blythe]

Sorry, I. We're not doing it.

[Dirk]

Right.

[Blythe]

I have to repeat, don't I?

[Dirk]

Yeah.

[Blythe]

So what. What is the first thing.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Will.

[Dirk]

It's.

[Blythe]

So the first thing's will. Yes, first things will.

[Dirk]

Yeah, that's. We'll make a good host of you. Yeah. The second one is the factions.

[Blythe]

The second one is Factions.

[Dirk]

Factions.

[Blythe]

Faction. Yes, that's the second one. Everyone factions. Okay.

[Dirk]

Make a note of it.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

Next one is the crew.

[Blythe]

The crew.

[Eddie]

The crew.

[Blythe]

Third one is for the crew. Okay, go on then.

[Eddie]

Will.

[Blythe]

Will.

[Unidentified Participant]

So, Will.

[Blythe]

I mean the mechanics.

[Dirk]

If anybody's unfamiliar with the mechanics, if you've ever played Traveler, then that's let me know. Is it?

[Unidentified Participant]

Yeah, it's.

[Blythe]

It's 2D6, target number of 8. Modified by skills and. And bits and pieces either, you know, like got. You got things like traits, haven't you, that can give you bonuses and stuff like that, but it's similar.

[Eddie]

It's not.

[Blythe]

It's not quite. That's Interesting. People say it's traveled, but it's not. It has enough differences actually in it.

[Dirk]

Yes.

[Blythe]

To make it.

[Eddie]

It is different. It's just.

[Blythe]

I suppose it just has that core mechanic of 8 or more on 2D6 plus a skill modifier. But outside of that, it is quite different from Traveler, isn't it? You know, there's no different things in it. But. But it's a relatively simple system.

[Dirk]

Yeah, definitely.

[Eddie]

And.

[Blythe]

But.

[Dirk]

And you mentioned about the traits or Traits are like the edges, aren't they? So all characters are the edges. And there are archetyp types as well, character archetypes that you can pick from. As you mentioned, you can play one of the hidden or magicians. And the way that you get your benefits is through these traits because they are mechanical as well as descriptors. There's one element of it is will, and will is function. A bit like luck, but there's a bit more to it, isn't it? You can add it to a row after you've rolled to change the result from a failure to a success. But it's also, as we discovered when we were playing it, it is a key resource because some of the traits activated by Will and in fact because you're quite capable characters and competent. I mean, that was one thing that was revealed to us, wasn't it, when we were playing.

[Blythe]

Yeah. My character was a scene of crime investigator, but she had a good melee skill and she had a thing called fight on, which meant you could soak damage with a will. So she got.

[Eddie]

She.

[Blythe]

She went after a vampire, didn't she, with a stake and she came a bit of a cropper. The vampires hit back quite badly, but she managed to soak the damage using Will because that's one of her traits. But that's. I remarked to you, didn't I didn't make Tiana quite reasonably competent and quite tough, which is good in that kind of game because you can fight a vampire.

[Eddie]

Yes.

[Blythe]

You know, with a reasonable amount of confidence.

[Dirk]

But. And I think Will allows you to do that.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

But it's also a key resource. More than hit points. Probably it. You Will running out is going to be.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

An important factor in the game, isn't it? It's going to affect your decisions.

[Blythe]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dirk]

Going forward.

[Blythe]

Yeah. I suppose that's where it is different from Traveler, because even though when we play Traveler, I often use the look mechanic, but the look and kind of works.

[Eddie]

Works a bit differently from Will. So it is.

[Blythe]

I suppose that's where it's fundamentally different from Traveler, isn't it, that you've got that resource that you can. And the trails are different from Traveler as well. You don't really have trails in Traveler, so it gives you those extra bits and pieces to work with and argument. What's going on. Argument, roles and that kind of thing.

[Dirk]

You can refresh the will points during play by activating your drive. I suppose we found that was a bit awkward in some places, didn't we? So some characters have a drive that is easy to.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Blythe]

Some accounts have a drive that's easy to build in, say, well, I'm acting on my drive, therefore I'll get some willpower. And others quite convoluted because my drive was to collect. She was obsessed with collecting vampire teeth. And so my drive was to collect vampire teeth. But I could. I could build that income to get some will back to refresh my will. It was easy because we were hunting vampires, so I could just say, well, were hunting vampires, so I'm acting on my driver all the time. It had been different. Might not be quite. Yes.

[Dirk]

Some of the others were more situationally.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

Located. So, you know, they had to be in a particular position before they do it. Otherwise make a convoluted situation to refresh it. But, yeah, I think Will brings a lot to the game. And really, that is, even though you got the core resolution mechanic, that is the bit that is on the table that's going up and down.

[Blythe]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dirk]

That's what you're keeping your eye on, isn't it? During it.

[Blythe]

So the second thing is factions.

[Dirk]

Factions. So as you said, you know, when you. When you first face this, and we're about to play Vampire the Masquerade, and that is built upon factions, and that looks really, really complicated.

[Eddie]

Clans, isn't it?

[Host of Grognard Files]

Clans.

[Dirk]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's.

[Blythe]

It's interesting that I read. I looked at Liminal this week and I looked at Vampire the Masquerade. Vampire of the Masquerades, we call it. Yeah. Similar kind of things, but very different, packaged very differently as games. As I said, liminal, quite accessible, easy into it, read it in a night and thought, yeah, I know. I know what to do with this. I know how this works. Could I could do some stuff with this? The Masquerade was like, oh, wow. Yeah. Looking at. There's a lot. There's a lot going on here and a lot of history.

[Eddie]

I'd love to learn about vampires and clowns.

[Dirk]

The way that they're structured, as we mentioned before, they are inspiring. So the Grinder in British history. But as you read it, you start to think, oh, yeah, I can make this work. So far we played the quick start, which I ran, and I really want to. I've got this idea based on Stranger Times, of having this, a serious scenario set in Manchester, because it's somewhere I'm familiar with, but also because he can introduce some of those factions and give them a bit of a local flavor. So I think it is the bedrock upon what makes Liminal. Liminal. And there's some really good advice in the games master section about to construct Liminal Tsunami.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

Which.

[Unidentified Participant]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

People are familiar from Monster of the Weekend and version does the same thing, doesn't it? Invite to construct it. But it's very good. It's very good advice. And how to bring those factions in.

[Blythe]

Good, good practical advice. Like I said earlier, the. The idea that it's a game to be played. So the final thing is Cruise.

[Dirk]

Cruise, yeah.

[Blythe]

Not Tom.

[Dirk]

Not Tom, no, no. It's a bit shorter than that, if that's possible. It's a.

[Eddie]

Cruise.

[Dirk]

And we're familiar from things like Blades in the Dark. And it is a concept that's coming as they. Over the last five years or so.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

Of having some mechanical benefits around the actual group of PCs, giving not only them some motivation. So this is what they do. So, for example, Stranger Times, you've heard about having a newspaper.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

And the players can create that and they can have some benefits as well. So they can choose from a pick list of what the benefits of the crew is and it gives us. And that can develop as the adventures go along. Gives it that focus in a game where you could have a real mix of archetypes of characters, but it gives them a thematic reason to be together.

[Blythe]

And it's interesting, isn't it? A lot of games do that now because it tries to avoid that problem of, well, what the hell are we investigating this for? Why are we doing this? You know, why are we all together doing this? Yeah, that's the point.

[Dirk]

What's to keep us together?

[Blythe]

What's to keep us together? Why would we all be all these disparate people with different skills and different backgrounds all together? You know, I mean, Version does it with the side, doesn't it? The idea that you're special and you've. You end up living in this castle and other mill. The same. Similar. Not quite the same as that, but just similar thing that it tries to construct. Construct an idea of why you're all together.

[Dirk]

Yeah.

[Blythe]

Why are you doing what you're Doing and get past that problem of slightly boring problem that always crops at. Well what are we doing this wrong?

[Dirk]

Yeah, well, it's a game.

[Blythe]

Get on with it.

[Dirk]

Yeah, yeah. So I think that crew works really well. So they're the strong points.

[Blythe]

What do you not like about it? You have to do that, don't we?

[Dirk]

Yeah, yeah.

[Blythe]

What's the, what's the one thing you don't like?

[Dirk]

Right, so the one thing that I don't like about it. Well, it has a benefit of having a very simple system.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

We should mention roll over 8 on 2d6. But we did find a couple occasions, didn't we, where we needed some spot rules to deal with certain situations. Like for example, if you've got a telescopic stake and you want to put it through a vampire's heart.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

How do you deal with that?

[Blythe]

Yeah, there was that. Well, that was true that you think there'd be a spot rule for staking a vampire in a fight because really that's what you're trying to do, isn't it? There's no, you don't really got stab one with a piece of wood. You want to get through the heart. So how do you deal with it? It does have some. It does have a kind of advantage disadvantage rule I think where you get plus two for advantage and minus two for disadvantage.

[Eddie]

So.

[Blythe]

And it gives a few examples of things. It doesn't give staking through the heart but it, it gives a few examples like if you're on higher ground, that kind of thing.

[Dirk]

Yeah.

[Blythe]

So I suppose you could have, you could modify it. You could, you say, well if it's called shot, I'm going to give you minus two and I'm going to give them plus two on the oppos roll thing. Yeah, you could do that. But it doesn't. You're right. It doesn't specify. It's always a strange thing, isn't it, with games that do that? Because you get games that go to one extreme where they specify everything. Yeah, everything's laid down to the point where you think I can't go with this because just too many rules. But then the other extreme where it's kind of rules light, you do get those situations where you think what, what do I do? Yeah, with this. And, and I suppose more problematic, it's not so bad coming up with a, a rule or an interpretation rules on the hoof. If it's a one off situation. I suppose it's more problematic where it's something that might happen a lot. So Staking a vampire through the heart in a game where you're umpire hunter will happen a lot, won't it? Yeah, that will happen a lot. So you've got to be careful about how you house rule it. Because if you house rule it wrong, we've all done this, haven't we? Your house rule it in the first game and then by the third or fourth game you start thinking, I wish I hadn't house ruled it like that because it's too easy or too difficult. So I know what you mean. Yeah, you can do it. The game allows you to do all sorts of things because it is quite simple and those modifiers can I just.

[Dirk]

Think that it's sometimes when you're doing those adjudications are pluses and minuses. They're a bit clumsy in a way and you sometimes want a little bit more, don't you?

[Unidentified Participant]

I don't.

[Dirk]

I wondered whether. Introducing the idea of Boone and Bane dice, like from Traveler, you know, the idea of just having an extra.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

Advantage dice.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

Disadvantage dice. So you take the lowest result or the highest result depending on what it was.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

Might work more effectively.

[Blythe]

But they're always, they're always so they're always a bit tricky, those things. Even the boon and Ben in travel. Look, if you decide to house rule it as well, if you're doing that, I'll always. I'll always give you a boon, I'll always give you a ban if you do that. And then they do that a lot, you then tied into it, aren't you, where you go, oh, I shouldn't paid that decision because I've given them a boon for doing whatever it is at this particular thing and now they do that all the time and they get a boon and it's too easy for them. Yeah. You know, so that can be the problem with house ruling things. Making the wrong judgment early on.

[Dirk]

Before we sign off, what are the. Now you've read it, you played it a couple of times. Yeah, we always have a monster off, don't we?

[Interviewer]

So what. What do you like to face in.

[Dirk]

In this way? If I'm devising a scenario. What are the monsters?

[Blythe]

Vampires are always good, aren't they? To fight. I'm definitely a vampire hunter. This is the problem with Vampire the Masquerade, you know, we're going to be playing that soon, aren't we? We're going to be playing vampires. I don't know. I'm more of a vampire hun than a vampire. You know, I think, yeah. I think vampire vampires Are great, aren't. Classic monster. They won. They won. Didn't they win our monster off on the Ultimate Monster Off?

[Unidentified Participant]

Yeah.

[Blythe]

Episodes and episodes ago. I'm sure the vampire came top. I'm sure he did. He wasn't top. It was like, he's near the top.

[Dirk]

I quite like the idea of introducing werewolves, but having it, particularly in Manchester, of having some alternatives. There's actually a supplement that deals with werewolves because I've not had enough werewolves in my game.

[Blythe]

Ghosts as well. Ghosts are always under, I think undervalued a bit, aren't they? Yeah. I don't know. In role playing games you always think a ghost. You thought. Yeah. All right. Because I know version has a few scenarios with ghosts in and I always overlook them a bit and think, this is the ghost though, isn't it? It's not like a monster.

[Dirk]

Yeah.

[Blythe]

But when. But whenever you watch movies or read books that have ghosts, you thought, it's quite good ghost, certainly.

[Dirk]

Yeah.

[Blythe]

You know, and Lemon up does have ghost in, doesn't it?

[Dirk]

Yeah.

[Blythe]

So maybe ghosts rather than vampires. A ghost is the thing to include.

[Dirk]

It's been quite good discovering this game because it is a new game to us into.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dirk]

And yeah, I'm looking forward to playing.

[Blythe]

More of it and it's. It's been quite a good experience discovering it. Going from. It's quite a heartening experience because I've gone from thinking, I don't think it's for me. I think it's a bit like other games and I'm not sure I can be bothered or I've got the headspace to learn a whole new setting and yet playing it and looking at it and reading it, all those things are not true.

[Dirk]

Yeah.

[Blythe]

It is different from other games. It's accessible and I do want to play it and I do want to run it as well. Yeah. So that is kind of heartening that you can still find a game that excites you. Even though we've got loads of games, we've played loads of games and we talked about loads of games and I.

[Dirk]

Think, you know, I mentioned that Eddie's game gave me a way into it and the vampire hunting. But as well, I watched recently because it's.

[Unidentified Participant]

It.

[Dirk]

When it came out again, it was in the 90s, it was ultraviolet, which is really the same thing, the P Division and. Yeah. Vampire hunters in the British Police. So it really helped me get into it. I'm looking forward to getting into some of the subtleties.

[Blythe]

Yeah. Yeah, it's good. It's good. It is a kind of gateway because it's so well together. Together and well explained, it feels like a kind of gateway into that sort of stuff.

[Dirk]

Right, we're gonna have a break before we go because we have to use a kettle.

[Blythe]

You have to use a kettle.

[Dirk]

Ball is knacking a sealed unit.

[Blythe]

Sealed, sealed unit. Make an admin roll. There you go. 8. Oh, more open box.

[Interviewer]

Welcome to the zoom of role playing. RUMBLING this time I'm joined by the raconteur virtual pub landlord, maths guru, UK player and games designer and RPG polymath, Dr. Paul Michener. Hello there, Dr. Mitch.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Hello there, Dirk. Lovely to be here. So, being on the Pod Gognard Files, I feel like I've finally made it.

[Interviewer]

It's great to have you on and I'm hoping that the zoom of role playing rambling is a bit like a doctor's consulting room today, because I'm, I'm consulting you on RPG matters.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

I mean, my rates are modest, 20 pound an hour, so, you know, it's not too bad.

[Interviewer]

And my questions are not about maths, they're your game liminal, because I've started playing the game, I just want to. You're helping getting into it. So I've had a first session and I just could do with your help.

[Dirk]

In just getting into it, just understanding.

[Interviewer]

Where it's come from. So if any people are listening who don't. Don't know the game. What's, what's the pitch?

[Dr. Paul Michener]

It's modern day fantasy, set in the uk. So it's a UK where magicians are real, where werewolves, vampires, fairies, the whole Shabbat, ghosts, that sort of thing. It's all real, it's hidden. Most people either don't know about it or ignore it. You're caught up, you do know about it and you can't ignore it.

[Interviewer]

It's as simple as that, isn't it?

[Dr. Paul Michener]

People know, you know, know these enough bits and pieces of folklore and if you like popular culture folklore, to just grab onto it and grab onto these ideas, earn things form. There's a village, there's people regularly making sacrifices to the fairies. They've stopped and now the fairies want their revenge. You get that immediate pitch you could set in any village or, you know, vampires lurking around nightclubs, preying on the population. They've grabbed someone who maybe they managed to get away. Now we've been alerted to it. Yeah, again, easy pitches, easy things to grab, hold on to.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And I've recently re. Listened to the podcast that we did the episode Two where we talked about Call of Cthulhu and that ability, when scenarios are close to home, they give an extra edge to them.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

You can. You can do an edge. You can even play Sort or set it in the recent past and play with recent history. So, for example, the thing you did with Knight's Black Agents and the miners strike, you know, that's inspired because everyone can latch onto that and get sort of has views and thinks about it, or maybe at least anyone in a northern British town thinks about it. Right. Of our age. Yeah, I think you're right. I think that type of thing, setting it in somewhere familiar is really. Andy. It makes it. Whether it's local to you or not. I mean, the other thing is a lot of the playing of this. I did a lot of playing when it was first out and of course that was over the COVID period. And it meant we could get a group of people together, role playing, going down the pub.

[Interviewer]

So where did it come from? Where did the idea come from for Lemmino?

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Initially, I think it's a case of I wanted something. It changed from this. I was thinking I wanted something UK centered in this sort of, if you like, monster hunting genre. And that became something a bit more gentle than that. In a sense, you know, we're not necessarily hunting monsters. I suppose the other thing was, again, lots of system ideas I was dabbling with because I was thinking, what would be a nice simple system to power that with a broad range of things, but still broad and not. But not universal. So that was the system engine. And the final push came when, at work, I was on strike for three weeks, meaning I wasn't getting paid for three weeks. And that gave me the kick to finish off and put it on Kickstarter. So, yeah, basically I did it for the money.

[Interviewer]

It's interesting you said that about tone and the subtlety to it, because that was what surprised me. I must admit that we didn't go to the game because we were already playing Monster of the Week and we thought, well, isn't it similar to that? It's several shades, several tones lighter, isn't it?

[Dr. Paul Michener]

I mean, Monster of the Week is a great game. Yeah, I certainly ran that before I was even thinking of liminal. But, yeah, I think it's almost deliberately something different there, going for this sort of different range of fantasies, sort of urban fantasy, really. I mean, I wanted to do a bit of sort of world building, because that's actually one of the big pills of rising something you can be self indulgent, a Bit with world building. So it's a case of thinking of various factions. One example of the factions is some of them come from logical thought. You're thinking, okay, there's magicians, let's have a bunch of very academic mission wizards and think, no, right, let's make them all posh boys. And that's basically where the Council of Merlin came from. Very much a boys network until very, very recently, you know, with this monetary requirement of say half a million pounds or something to join. It was something ridiculous. And so that led to that. I mean, there was obviously going to be some police involvement hushing things up, putting things in. So that led to PEA division and then thinking about bits of folklore to do with the fae and bits of invention. So the folklore, you're thinking, okay, the Winter King, this whole business, what's going on over in the wilds of Britain, especially in the north and in Scotland, and that got twisted to become a bent Winter King, which is one of the fairy factions. And it's that sort of thing again. The vampires. So the vampires, they're nests of vampires. They prey on people. There's an overriding organization. I thought, well, what if vampires were just that bit out of date and not with it? What do they think the way is to gain total control? Well, clearly, you know, the UK is a monarchy. What they need is control over the royal family. And that led to the sodality of the crown. And they're never going to realise that sort of ambition. And even if they do, it won't really do what they think it does. Having a lot of fun with thinking of things like that.

[Dirk]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And that's British as well. That sense of class runs through the factions, doesn't it?

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think once I realized I was doing that, I deliberately lent into.

[Interviewer]

It one of my favorite lines in P Division because that's the. This is the off the books unit of the police. They're funded from the stationary budgets, aren't they? So they're kind of creaming off the stationary budgets of various police forces.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Yes, basically, yeah. I think that was told, I think at work, because I'm an academic, we were told at one stage you're using too much chalk. That smart, that idea.

[Interviewer]

Also with Peter Vision, it reminded me of a short runnings. Well, I think it only ran for one season. But Ultraviolet, which was in Ultraviolet, is.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Definitely inspirational viewing there. I mean, obviously it's a different setup. It's specifically, you know, vampires, a special unit fighting the vampires. But it was a great series. I really did like it, yeah.

[Interviewer]

I think it only ran for six episodes, isn't it?

[Dr. Paul Michener]

But I think so, yeah. It's channel four, wasn't it?

[Unidentified Participant]

I think.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Was it Channel four?

[Host of Grognard Files]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And it had Jack Davenport in it and a young Idris Elba didn't it, in.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Yes, that's right, yeah. Yes, it was always Jack Davenport who's the star, wasn't he? But I think you're right, young Idris Elba is very noticeable.

[Interviewer]

Yes. And this whole area of urban horror, urban fancy is. Is that something that exploded in the 90s or other things that predate that?

[Dr. Paul Michener]

I think you're right that things exploded in the 1990s with TV series such as, you know, I'm thinking Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I'm thinking, okay, he mentioned Ultra Violet. That was late 90s, I think, wasn't it as well. Another British one would be Neverwhere. Another single sort of six episode thing. So it was a Neil Gaiman thing, but I think he got it from talking to Lenny Henry and I think he was trying to make the whole thing a big sort of almost an analogy of homelessness and make it fantastic but not also bring home that, you know, not to glamorize it.

[Interviewer]

Right, yeah, of course. Because I've played the Quickstar and the homeless. You identify that they're the.

[Unidentified Participant]

Yeah.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

The Hidden are Almost Neverwhere is a very clear inspiration there, I think. And coming down to books, so I'd say probably some of the earliest inspirations for this and again in novels, this exploded in the sort of 90s and later on, but probably some of the earliest novels of the current. Recent splurge of them, as it were. One would be the. Do you know the Hellblazer comics with John Constantine?

[Interviewer]

No, I don't know those.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

No, that's sort of. I mean there was of course a TV series as well of that on Amazon. Heavy Smoking, Scouser, Ill Advised Magician and that goes back to 1985. It's very much rooted in its times. There's a lot of commentary on say Thatcherism, for example. The politics are really in your face there. It's all the better for it, I think for me, definitely an Artifact from the 1980s. Other early novels, Emma Bull's War for the Oaks, which is. I can't remember. I think that's like late 1980s. That's sort of the American idea of urban sort of fantasy. You know, there's a city, there's hidden factions of Fae going on and it's a very much a British Folkloric type of fairy. I mean, I think my problem with that is Even in my 30s, I think it was when I first read that it had a character called Willie Silver who I had trouble taking seriously or reverted back to being a teenager. Other early books would be Moon Heart, which is Charles Delinque. So he did huge numbers of sort of urban fantasy novels.

[Unidentified Participant]

He's a. Correct.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

He's a Canadian author, but that was his first and that's 1984. One that support more pure horror involving being abducted by fairies is one called Fairy Tale by Raymond Feist. So Those are the 1980s novels, more modern novels. I could give you big lists and lists of series and things like that if you want. I could also say consult the bibliography of Liminal if you wanted to do that as well.

[Interviewer]

For some reason, it's a massive gap in my reading and watching. For some reason I've steered away from them and maybe that's the reason why I haven't been drawn to Liminal. But now that I'm in it, I'm kind of intrigued by it and want to discover more.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

I mean, there's. There's lots of people, there's lots of Grognards who seem to have got into it, I think, because of the British element of it. One thing I certainly do first of all, so I gave you the sort of easy pitches, but one thing to do is take literally anywhere and look at the local history, look at the local folklore. So every village in the country virtually has a church that's nearly a thousand years old, which is kind of incredible when you stop and think about it. So there is stuff going on there. There's weird landscape features. There's landscape features where it's like, oh, yes, look at that dish in the landscape. Oh, yes, that was scooped out by a giant. Oh, was it? Okay, that's the folk tale, things like that, to just play with, play around with that idea. And then I think things come quite naturally.

[Interviewer]

I. I think it's inspired to use the phrase liminal as well.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Liminal spaces element is something that's definitely been interesting to me for a while. Not just so much airports, terminal space, but saying people, places, I don't know, little borders between countries and things like that. And yeah, extending that to that is really fun. And of course, the adventures in Liminal do go on really between the borders, between the supernatural and the normal worlds.

[Interviewer]

I luckily I have a canal that I walk down every night and I always get inspiration from that because of the people who live on there. The wildlife I see there. And you just think this is just something that's between two very industrial towns of the past. But this is a little sanctuary. But it also has a history of its own that is waiting to be revealed, or it's concealing, really, and the actual building of it as well. So you're right. Everything has its own story, hasn't it?

[Dr. Paul Michener]

It's really fun playing with that and revealing it and using it. Whether it's like industrial landscapes or things that were industrial and they also post industrial. Possibly there's a process of gentrification, possibly there's still abandoned buildings. That's interesting from that point of view. Anything that's squeezed out there, things squeezed out, bits of countryside that are left by being squeezed out. Yeah, that stuff's great. It's idea fodder. Interesting pubs, right? Pubs are good.

[Interviewer]

You give really good advice. Just picking up on that theme. But it's one of the strong points of the rule book, is the advice you give on building cases.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Thanks. Yeah, and I think that's a good idea because you can start off with that advice. You can build things with that fairly rigid structure I've set out in the book, and then you can start branching out from that once you're comfortable with it.

[Interviewer]

And there's a range of supplementary materials. If somebody was starting out. Which are the books that you would go for? Because I've got Werewolves of Britain, which I'm enjoying reading. And you have to say as well that the artwork is superb.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

I was very lucky working with Jason Benker, the artist, for this, and having that sort of unified artist throughout the whole thing. Yeah, you're right. He's brilliant and he. He gets it.

[Interviewer]

And that very much sets the tone.

[Dirk]

Of it, isn't it?

[Interviewer]

And this Werewolves of Britain, again, it's. There's loads of ideas of hooks. It just develops the faction, really, doesn't it, and where they may emerge and gives you some ideas of where.

[Dirk]

It's quite.

[Interviewer]

It's quite a slim book, but it's packed with. Packed with stuff. Are there any others that I should be going towards?

[Dr. Paul Michener]

The newest one that's come out is Case Notes, which is the collection of individual scenarios with some ideas of linking them together, you know, by my. By me and others. I mean, you could also pick them up in individual PDFs for, I think, one or two pound each. If there's any particular ones you take, take your fancy. Or you can get the collected book. Pax Londinium is, if you're. Well, if you're interested in setting things around London is an obvious one. So the next thing coming out for Liminal is fairies and folklore. Jason is doing the art for that at the moment. After that it's Nova Castria, basically set around Newcastle and around County Durham. And that's nice. Right. Why have everything in London?

[Interviewer]

Is that gonna have lots of bridges in it and trolls?

[Dirk]

That's right.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Of course there's going to be lots of bridges and trolls.

[Interviewer]

Before we leave, I want to talk about mechanics because that is something that you enjoy, isn't it? And we've talked a lot about the setting. What interests you about game design is the mechanics, isn't it how the rules make these things work?

[Dr. Paul Michener]

I mean, I like mechanics being tied in to the setting, or at least tied in to what you're doing in the setting. That seems sort of quite important to me. I also want them to be simple enough that people can grasp them, but also simple enough they're not doing anything that annoys me. Right. That's my bar for a game. I'll read it thinking, oh, this is a cool setting. You're doing cool stuff here. Do the mechanics do anything which annoy me? I do like to have some, at least some small way of manipulating the dice a little bit after the roll to smooth out luck. So that's essentially where it was going from. So I did initially have playing with much more complicated ideas, but again the 2d6 roll and then spending wheel to boost the results just seems to work with there. And I'll go. Where my maths came in is basically, well, what's the target numbers? You want to have this running at the degree of success that seems appropriate.

[Interviewer]

The will becomes quite a important resource. It certainly did quick start.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Yeah. When there's a lot of punishing things going on or just bad luck, being careful with Will and almost choosing to fail things is pretty important. It certainly gets important with the players, especially when there's combat going on.

[Interviewer]

Many of the traits are triggered by will, aren't they? So yeah, people want to hold that back, don't they?

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Yeah. So anything that's sort of magical, you're spending will on essentially a lot of the time. Like you say, it comes sort of the resource to manage really, if you'll doing that.

[Interviewer]

The importance of the crew as well. That has mechanical elements to it as well.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

I wanted the crew to be important in the game. So again, I had the idea of, well, some choices you're making as a group to almost bring the players together as the group. When you're making those choices. I mean, the other thing is, of course, there's different types of crew, different things you're doing. Are you a sort of supernatural investigation business or are you some sort of, if you like, sort of secret division of the police? Those are different things and they're going to lead to different scenarios. But the other thing I'll say with the crew is that one I wanted that element of, I suppose, found family to be important in the game because the people in the game are their liminals. Ordinary society, knowing all these other stuff's out there, that makes it hard to cope. But also, if they're maintaining humanity, they're not going to go, you know, fully into the supernatural factions. So it's a case of trying to maintain a foot in both camps and basically finding other people like them to work with.

[Dirk]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And it gives reasons for the different archetypes to be together, doesn't it? And because there's quite a range.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Absolutely.

[Dirk]

Yeah.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Yeah. Because why would a magician be working with a werewolf? Don't have. You need that. You need that reasoning.

[Unidentified Participant]

There's. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So it's a fantastic game and I'm looking forward to getting more into it and developing a campaign. I've got these ideas set in and around Manchester that I'm developing, so I'm looking forward to getting into that. So thank you for guiding me through some of the areas of it. Thank you very much, Paul.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Yeah, thank you very much for having me on. Like I said, I feel like I've made it now. Now sort of life ambition checked off.

[Dirk]

Oh, get me caught.

[Unidentified Participant]

Welcome back. We're now in the zoom of role playing, rambling. Hello there, Blythe. You're back. And we're heading towards the door.

[Blythe]

Yes.

[Eddie]

Hello, Dirk. I'm back, but I'm putting my coat on.

[Unidentified Participant]

We're heading towards the door. We can't quite bring this podcast to an end, so we're heading towards the door. We've got some closing time chatter, some. Any other business. So what's yours? What's. What's occupying your brain at the moment?

[Eddie]

What's up for my brain is the Dungeon Crawl Classics Dying Earth box set, which I acquired a few weeks ago.

[Blythe]

I didn't.

[Eddie]

I didn't order it from America because I. I can't remortgage my house for the postage.

[Interviewer]

Dying Earth.

[Unidentified Participant]

And obviously I am. I was very tempted to. It's just because of the Dying Earth thing.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Participant]

And we've been playing a bit of Dungeon Crawl classic. So the first Question is, how does it do Diner?

[Eddie]

It's interesting to compare it to the DCC Lankmar box set, because the Lankmar one doesn't change the game very much, I would say, as a few new rules in about healing without clerics and things like that.

[Blythe]

But the Dinath one changes it quite a bit more in that it introduces.

[Eddie]

New character classes which the Lankmar one doesn't really do. Like Mile one just uses your conventional character classes. So it has magicians in who are a bit like wizards, obviously, but they. It operates slightly differently. They reconfigure the magic system a bit. It is like the Vancy and Fire and Forget thing, but it has sort of extra rules about learning magic and how you learn stuff and how things work. And it has wayfarers who are kind of like travellers, bit like rogues, travelers. And as witches as well, witches as magic for witches, which is again interesting, like curses and stuff like that. And most, most interesting of all, the most fun of all, it has VAT things. So there's a character class VAT thing, so you can play a vat thing that's been grown in a vat by a magician, which of course you remember from the books. So that's quite good fun. So it. But it. It does kind of alter the. Doesn't alter the game as such. It's not like a different game, obviously, but it reconfigures it a bit.

[Unidentified Participant]

It.

[Eddie]

If you see what I mean, for the Dying Earth, bit more than the length Mile one, it does quite a few changes, a bit more to get your head around, I think. And it has a nice rule of a grudge, things called grudge tokens. So when you fail a role badly, if you get a one, you get a grudge token because your level of embarrassment in front of your. Your fellow adventurers and you know, the idea that you kind of embarrassed and they laugh at you slightly. So I think very Vancy. And you know, you're like, yeah, you kind of humiliated. So you get a grudge token which you can play against another player later on to make them fail a role.

[Unidentified Participant]

Oh, that's good.

[Eddie]

Like the idea you made a fool of yourself, so you harbor a grudge against your fellow adventurers and later on you can make one of them fail, which is a very handsome thing, isn't it? Kind of, you know, pride of adventurers in a very slightly pompous. Like they are in. In ramps.

[Blythe]

In the Dying Earth.

[Eddie]

There is that thing, isn't that everyone? There's a very high Opinion of themselves, you know.

[Unidentified Participant]

Yeah. Particularly Cujo is like the main character of Eyes of the Old World and Kugel saga. Yeah, definitely.

[Eddie]

Yes. Ezra's like that. So it's quite, it's. It's very, very appealing actually. Very good. And I think as well what's interesting. And again I said this about the Lankbar thing. You realize when ready setting how influential it is in role playing.

[Dr. Paul Michener]

The.

[Eddie]

The beginnings of role playing. I mean people often talk about it, don't they, that D and D. You've ancient magic in D and D and that kind of thing which is obvious. The obvious thing. But there is in the diner setting you realize that some of the monsters from D and D, the weird monsters, monsters in D D hard very vancium. The visp for example is very reminiscent of umber hulks in D D. You can see kind of parallels some of these monsters that are in dnd early D D. So like displacer beasts for example. Although they're not in the dying earth. They wouldn't be out of place in the diner.

[Unidentified Participant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Eddie]

It kind of reminds you. Although you know, it reminds you that, you know, people bang on about talking. Not a very dnd. It's not very token esque at all. It's very advanced.

[Unidentified Participant]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

The magic system. But in the whole shtick.

[Unidentified Participant]

It's good that you say that because it's a bit of a disconnect for me because when you say dungeon crawl classics you think of dungeon crawling and dungeon crawling is just the opposite to me to fancy stories. Vantian stories are about picaresque encounters with strange people in unusual circumstances. Yeah. Rather than going down deep into the world finding things. So does it deal with that? What the adventures like?

[Blythe]

Well, I'm gonna, I'll be running.

[Eddie]

I'm gonna be running one of the adventures for. For Morpcom in, in Manchester in a few weeks. I'm doing the. The funnel. Don't, don't, don't switch off. I've said the word funnel.

[Blythe]

Don't, don't.

[Eddie]

Don't fall asleep. The book the Pilgrims of the Black Obelisk and it's interesting what you say about encounters because that is an adventure where you play zero level pilgrims on your way to the city to worship. Involve yourself in certain rituals for this long forgotten God. And it is a. It is a journey with encounters. And the encounters are exactly what you just said. These kind of picturesque characters and unusual characters and situations that you find yourself.

[Blythe]

In on a journey.

[Eddie]

And that is very advancing. It's not it's not a dungeon, it's not a crawl in a dungeon. It's not that at all. It's a journey with various encounters that are keely unusual and eccentric. It brings out that vancing flavor.

[Unidentified Participant]

What I found to my surprise is that when the Grog squad. So some of the Grog squad discovered Jack Vance through listening to the podcast. You know, because in previous episodes we've covered lioness and we do tend to pepper our conversations with references to vans. There's quite a few people who, to use the expression bounced hard off it. So it'd be interesting to see whether it actually gets any traction.

[Eddie]

What's that meant, bounced hard off it? Is that harder grade?

[Unidentified Participant]

Yeah, it's like a version of hard. Agree. Yeah, it's like they found some of it quite repellent and out of step with modern sensibilities, which I can see because it's got its basis in the cruelty of fairy tales, hasn't it? And some of those fairy tale archetypes are about old power structures.

[Eddie]

Yeah, there is. And. And this. The adventures, or at least the one, the red. Yeah, they do. I don't want to give too much away because someone may end up playing. I mean this may be released before I've run the programs of the back Obelisk. But there are. Yeah, there are definitely those kind of cruel. Yeah, fairy tale type things going on in it that are quite cruel which. Which feel relaxed about in a zero level game where it's a funnel where you're playing four characters. So as a gaming master, you think good old Sky Shun doesn't matter. But yeah, it definitely does have that sort of cruel twist. I wouldn't say. I don't think there's anything in it that upsets modern sensibilities. I can see that the books might because they're of the time, that kind of thing. The game. The game doesn't do that. I think things like that are eradicated or pushed aside. But there is that sense of. Yes, cruelty and trickery and those kind of things are there, I think.

[Unidentified Participant]

Yeah, well, I'm wrestling with a similar thing because I've got off the shelf Twilight 2000 which I got as a Kickstarter. So I didn't get it from lizard games. I went all in. I went in big style. I got it in a biscuit tin, the top level thing and instantly regretted it as soon as it arrived because I think I've mentioned before that I looked at it and my eyes just glided off it. I found it very unappealing. And it's just sat there. So in order to persuade myself to. To do it, I actually put it down in the calendar for Alban, the wizard staff convention game that I'm going to run. So I know that I've got to get my head right there and I've started looking at it and it is that thing of balancing the sensibility because that's the bit that I was struggling with because it goes for a sort of realism that I can't quite tolerate and it's particularly when it comes to like military realism. And that was, that was what I didn't like about the old game and it's slightly different with the new again because it is more of a narrative type and they've got a bit more crunch in it for using the Year Zero engine. But it's still. It's still grounded in authenticity and trying to put you in situations that are like a military squad. And I found it. Found it difficult, but I found a way into it over the last few weeks because I watched Blackhawk down and I thought, of course it could just be like a war movie.

[Eddie]

Yeah, yeah, you could do that. Yeah, that's the way to do it, isn't, I suppose. Yeah, it's not a simulation of real war, which might be slightly unpalatable to people, but yeah, do it like a war movie. The fine line of war movie, a good war movie, treads between being a war movie and giving some of the kind of insight into real war situations. Blackout down probably does reasonably well, doesn't it?

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

Based on. Based on a real situation, isn't it? But equally, when you watch it, think, well, he's a movie.

[Unidentified Participant]

It's hyper real, isn't. Kind of. The intensity of it is dramatic. It's all about the drama, it's all about the characters and about the situations that they're in. Not necessarily a reflection on the terrible thing of war and people having to be put in these terrible positions, which may be dramatically interesting, but I'm not sure they want it in a game.

[Eddie]

Yeah, it's a funny thing, isn't it, with. You know, most role playing games involve a degree of violence and horror and that kind of thing. But there's that fine line, isn't it, between it being like a book, like a movie, and it feeling sort of that it's trying to emulate reality in some way. Yeah, I know what you mean.

[Blythe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

A bit close to close to reality, isn't it? Besides kind of thing, I always think when, when people are frightened or horrified by horror movies. I always think, why the News is the worst horror film you can watch, isn't it? That's what it's like in role playing games. The nearer you get to something that feels real, the trickier it becomes. No, it's not necessarily a. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it's.

[Unidentified Participant]

Tricky to run, so I've decided to add another layer to it as well. So I'm a big fan of the Moral Project, which is again, from. I think we played the first edition, didn't we, in the late 70s. And that premise is a science fiction premise that, you know, Morrow and put these people into cryogenic storage with the idea of repopulating the world and preserving civilization after a nuclear bomb. And the. What that brings is there's like a separation because it. They were expecting to come a few years after the bomb, but in actual fact, because of reasons, it's 150 years after the bomb. So things have progressed somewhat. It hasn't got quite the same. There's like a level, a distance that I need really to just enjoy it rather than it being too terrifying, basically.

[Eddie]

Slightly more sci fi, I suppose, doesn't it?

[Unidentified Participant]

Yeah, fictionalizes. It puts a fictional. Fictional gloss on it.

[Eddie]

Yes.

[Blythe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Eddie]

It's not. It's not being set in. Yeah, it's not been set kind of now in Europe in the near future.

[Unidentified Participant]

I say that's the biggest problem I'm trying to deal with, but really the biggest problem I'm trying to deal with is resisting the edge of buying some model soldiers and actually laying out on the table with a tank.

[Eddie]

With a tight tank.

[Unidentified Participant]

With an actual tank.

[Eddie]

Yeah, I expect you to do that. I. I want to say when I'm at Alba, I want to glance over at your table and see Thai soldiers and a tank.

[Unidentified Participant]

All right.

[Eddie]

And if you don't, I'll be disappointed. I'll be disappointed in you. It says, you know, that's your opportunity, isn't it, to do that. Enhance your game considerably? Not the knees and cancer they might do.

[Unidentified Participant]

Yeah, I'm used to disappointing you by the. Anyway, that's another. That's another podcast, isn't it? That's another.

[Eddie]

That's another topic.

[Unidentified Participant]

Yeah. All right, then. I'll see you soon.

[Eddie]

Goodbye.

[Dirk]

There isn't another bit.

[Host of Grognard Files]

Thanks to Paul for spending some time to discuss Liminal. It's always fun spending time with him. Many people keep telling me that the setting is versatile and the fun is about pushing and exploring your own lines of inquiry. If you want to witness this process in action. Then I urge you to listen to Dave Patterson's Frankenstein's RPG podcast in Series three. It has taken a departure from its usual format and instead of constructing a game from the component parts of others, it's working with collaborators to generate a campaign. The panelists are using Liminal to create a campaign that touches upon all the places along the A1 the Great North Road in England, originally created by Romans and cutting across a multitude of legends and lore. Over recent days I've been doing a bit of planning for the book club. This is the Grognard Files monthly meeting where we discuss the different topic every month. You can find details on the site the grognardfiles.com over the coming months we have a discussion about Diceman, the book about the origins of games workshop, another session about Zines, a special meeting with Jeff Richard joining us in October to discuss the King of Satar and the new cult books that have come out for RuneQuest. The discussions are always light yet insightful. You can choose your own level of participation, so I hope that you'll come along to one. It's also the time of year when the tickets for Grog meet in Manchester in November go on sale. They'll be released to patrons first before going on general sale again. See the grognardfiles.com site for details. Thanks to all the patrons who continue to make this podcast possible. Due to the tips that they throw into the hat each month, they cover the costs and fund projects and generally encourage us to keep going even when the kettle is broken. There's been a number of comings and goings, but thanks to all the Patreons past and present as it makes a big difference to us. If you want to support the Grub pod then please pass it on and help us to find new people to speak to. Reviews are fantastic too as they help those machines learn stuff about us and who knows, maybe some chatbot will incorporate these bobbins into an essay about the meaning of life. Thank you to the following new patrons, Ronald Easterday, Michael Spenley, Stephen Lee, Benjamin Klein Confusing Trousers and Barry Ryan for those who are joining at the sofa so good level. I like to roll on a random table and give them a virtual gift as a way of thanks. This time I'm turning to Liminal and I'm going to go to the traits which are not normally available to PCs, but for one day only the the following hidden can have these special effects. That's a five to Joseph Heckle who can now appear human Jerry Knuckle.

[Eddie]

Oh.

[Host of Grognard Files]

He'S got a fairy tongue. Or in Bolton, a furry tongue, which is something completely different. Robbie Wilson is a poltergeist. And wheat squid. Oh, Invisible. Thank you to everyone. That's the first part of our liminal adventure. Next time, we'll be talking to the author C.K. macDonald, about his the Stranger Times series of novels set in paranormal Manchester for a bit of local liminal inspiration. And Blythe and I will be putting our wig on at the pub after watching 70s classic the Children Of Stones. Until then, adios, amigos.