THE GROGNARD FILES – Episode 63: Liminal (with Paul Mitchener) Pt. 1

Date: July 29, 2023
Host: Dirk the Dice
Guests: Blythe, Eddie, and Dr. Paul Mitchener (creator of Liminal)

Overview

This episode of The GROGNARD Files dives deep into Liminal, a modern British urban fantasy RPG published in 2019 and designed by Dr. Paul Mitchener. Unlike the usual nostalgic exploration of games past, the hosts focus on their tentative first explorations of Liminal—learning about the system, the setting, and their initial play experiences. The episode features a group discussion, thematic comparisons to other RPGs in the urban fantasy genre, and an insightful interview with Paul Mitchener covering inspirations, mechanics, and British folkloric influences.

Main Discussion: First Impressions and Context

[00:17–17:00]

Entering the Urban Fantasy Genre

• Dirk sets the scene for this "speed rating" episode, emphasizing their new experience with Liminal—a departure from their usual retro focus.
• Liminal stands out because of its urban fantasy setting, specifically grounded in contemporary Britain and rich in native folklore.
• Contrasts with the 80s: The hosts reflect that in their early days, "urban fantasy" games were rare, with Liminal drawing comparisons to titles like Vampire: the Masquerade and Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but with a uniquely British, subtler tone.

"It's more in the same vicinity as things like Vampire the Masquerade and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. This idea that monsters walk amongst us." — Dirk ([06:45])

Britishness & Folklore

• Liminal appeals to UK gamers through its authentic integration of British myths, localities, and familiar contributors from the British indie RPG scene.
• Its use of British folklore and local flavor is highlighted repeatedly as a key strength.

"It uses British folklore in the context of the modern United Kingdom... and the artwork by Jason Beneke is fabulous and creates the mood of the setting perfectly." — Dirk ([02:07])

Comparison with Other Urban Fantasy Games

• Monster of the Week, Vaesen, and similar games are discussed, with Liminal positioned as more subtle, less pulpy, and especially British in tone and detail.
• The group admits initial hesitation about Liminal because they already owned similar games, but found it distinct in practice.

"Monster of the Week is very American and has a TV show feel... Liminal is very British in its approach. It's a bit more subtle." — Blythe ([09:04])

What Makes Liminal Stand Out?

[17:00–25:44]

Dirk’s Three Highlights

1. Will as a Mechanic

   • Liminal uses a 2d6 + modifiers system (similar to Traveller), but its "Will" system stands out as a key player resource.
   • Will allows players to manipulate dice rolls, soak damage, and activate abilities ("traits")—it's more than just a luck pool; it's central to tension and pacing.
   • The group notes how Will management shapes tactical choices and narrative focus.

   "Will is a key resource because some traits are activated by Will... Will running out is going to be an important factor in the game." — Dirk ([19:24])

2. Factions

   • Rather than long-winded backstories, Liminal’s factions (like the Order of St. Bede and Council of Merlin) are concisely presented, with usable hooks for gameplay.
   • Each faction includes significant NPCs for immediate play relevance.

   "When you read it... it's presenting the different factions... only giving bits relevant to when you do it to the game." — Dirk ([11:15])

3. The Crew

   • Inspired by trends in games like Blades in the Dark; the "crew" mechanic offers shared resources and motivations, making diverse character groups more cohesive.
   • This feature helps avoid the usual "why are these people together?" question typical in investigator games.

   "The players can create their crew and have some benefits as well. That can develop as the adventures go along. It gives a thematic reason to be together." — Dirk ([24:33])

Conciseness and Accessibility

• Liminal is praised for being compact and "packaged like a game," in contrast to games with setting bloat or "frustrated novelist" syndrome.
• The brevity and usability of faction write-ups and hooks make GMs’ prep lighter and more inspiring.

Critiques & Challenges

[25:44–29:28]

Simplicity vs. Complexity

• Spot Rules: The downside to Liminal's simplicity: certain repeated actions (like staking vampires) lack explicit rules, leading to potential GM “house rule” headaches.
• The discussion explores possible ways to adapt, such as borrowing "boon/bane" dice from Traveller, but acknowledge risks in early, ill-advised rulings that can snowball.

"When you're doing these adjudications of pluses and minuses, they're a bit clumsy... sometimes you want a bit more." — Dirk ([28:20])

Liminal’s Monster Menagerie

[29:28–31:39]

• The group’s favorite antagonists: vampires (classic), werewolves (room for more in Manchester!), and ghosts (underutilized in many games).
• Their in-play experience draws on familiar cinematic cliches (e.g., Hammer horror, Captain Kronos), making the game more approachable despite initial unfamiliarity with urban fantasy tropes.

"Ghosts are always under... undervalued a bit, aren't they?... But whenever you watch movies or read books that have ghosts, you thought, it's quite good ghost." — Blythe ([30:22])

The Interview: Dr. Paul Mitchener on Liminal

[32:32–50:36]

The Pitch & Inspirations

[33:31]

• "It's modern day fantasy, set in the UK. So it's a UK where magicians are real, where werewolves, vampires, fairies, the whole shabbat, ghosts... It's all real, it's hidden. Most people either don't know about it or ignore it. You're caught up, you do know about it and you can't ignore it." — Dr. Paul Mitchener

Key Sources & Influences:

• British TV: Ultraviolet (late-90s, urban vampire hunting), Neverwhere (Neil Gaiman/Lenny Henry), and even police procedural elements (P Division).
• Fiction: Comics like Hellblazer, novels like War for the Oaks (Emma Bull), and Charles de Lint’s work.
• Real UK history and folklore: The importance of setting in local, recognizable places, mining the landscape, and British class structures runs through everything.

"One example of the factions is some of them come from logical thought... There's magicians, let's have a bunch of very academic wizards—make them posh boys. That's where the Council of Merlin came from." — Dr. Paul Mitchener ([37:23])

Mechanics: Accessibility, Will, and the Crew

• Mitchener wanted a simple, accessible system—2d6 + modifiers—with Will as a flexible resource to manipulate outcomes and power supernatural feats.
• The "crew" was specifically designed to reflect the British concept of "found family," giving characters a reason to stick together even as outsiders or misfits in the supernatural world.

"I wanted the crew to be important in the game... You’re making those choices as a group to almost bring the players together." — Dr. Paul Mitchener ([49:00])

Advice on Playing and Expanding Liminal

• Start locally: Every UK village/city has hidden folklore and historical strangeness you can tap for plots and adventure hooks.
• Use concise scenario "case files" to ease new GMs in—Liminal avoids "setting bloat" and starts play quickly.
• Liminal supplements highlighted: Werewolves of Britain (well-received), Pax Londinium (for London-based play), and the forthcoming Fairies and Folklore and Nova Castria (Newcastle).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the subtlety and accessibility of Liminal compared to other games:
  • "Liminal is packaged like a game... Some games, some settings, are written by frustrated novelists." — Blythe ([10:54])
• On the diverse inspirations:
  • "Ultraviolet is definitely inspirational viewing... Another British one would be Neverwhere, the Neil Gaiman thing..." — Dr. Paul Mitchener ([40:02])
• On finding new inspiration:
  • "It is kind of heartening that you can still find a game that excites you even though we’ve got loads of games, we've played loads of games..." — Blythe ([31:24])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:17–03:44 — Intro and episode setup
• 03:44–17:00 — First impressions, urban fantasy genre, British distinctiveness
• 17:00–25:44 — What makes Liminal stand out: Will, factions, crew
• 25:44–29:28 — Criticisms and rules simplicity vs. detail
• 29:28–31:39 — Monsters and personal favorite scenarios
• 32:32–50:36 — Interview with Dr. Paul Mitchener: history, design philosophy, supplements, mechanics
• 50:36–63:06 — Closing chatter: DCC Dying Earth, Twilight 2000, and thoughts on handling tone in games

Additional Details & Episode Tone

• The conversation is relaxed, humorous, and self-aware, blending nostalgia with curiosity and honest assessment.
• Britishness and "bobbins" abound in style and delivery; affectionate ribbing and playful banter are frequent.
• The episode emphasizes the joy of discovering new games even as "grognards"—seasoned enthusiasts of the hobby.

Summary for New Listeners

If you've not listened to this episode, you'll get:

• A rich, comparative look at the Liminal RPG through the eyes of both veteran players and its creator.
• Insights into what makes Liminal unique: accessible system, concise worldbuilding, and a deeply British, folklore-rich setting.
• Candid discussion of strengths and mechanical quirks—particularly the Will system and the importance of crew and factions.
• Concrete advice for new players/GMs on how to start, where to find inspiration, and which supplements to choose.
• A warm, witty tone that will appeal to anyone nostalgic for British RPG culture or looking for a thoughtful RPG podcast.

"Ramblers—let's get rambling."