← The Grounded Union Podcast
Loading summary
Transcript67 lines
- [00:00]
A
Welcome back to the Grounded Union Podcast. This is season four, episode four. We're talking about how sexual addiction creates insecure men and women. But I'm talking about men today because this was my story, this is our story. So we're going to dive into what that can look like on the journey of a soul. For a man that is wanting to create change in his relationship is coming up some internal limiting beliefs and perspective shifts that you can make. We're going to talk about those today so that you aren't just having your wife drag you along. Because it's really common when. When caught in an addiction, you feel inadequate, you feel ashamed of the mess you've created. So then what happens is you get small, you try to shrink back, you try to not. It's damage control, like we talked about in the counseling session. Like, well, we're gonna help you produce less damage. But what really needs to happen is when you see the magnitude of the mess you're in, you actually have to become a bigger man. A man that takes big boy ownership for his big boy mistakes, for his big boy actions that led to severe pain in your spouse and maybe others. If you aren't willing to go look at what you did, you can never heal from it. The issue is the addiction made you a very weak man. The addiction used up all of your energy. It brought about insecurity. It brought about a double life where you didn't choose to think deeply, where you didn't want to see yourself or see your spouse or see reality. That's the denial piece we talk about. So if you're in denial of what the addiction did to you, then how can you heal from it? But that's. That's what most couples are facing right now is Caitlin could feel. She could feel very deeply when she was discovering all the things I lied about. I couldn't feel anything because I had shut down my inner knowing, my care for myself, my care for my emotions. So I was an insecure, hollow, anxious man that had no substance to me. And that person can't do a lot to create healing and momentum and to help the relationship.
- [01:53]
B
And this is actually what we talk about a lot in the first season of our podcast, when we talk about step number seven, we go deep in this, in our community as well, and even on our event. Which step number seven is the concept of moving from being powerless to moving to being powerful, which in a lot of other spaces you might hear, you know, the terms of not being a victim anymore. And so this is. Is really in Alignment with that process of when you get caught or when you discover, discover that you're ready to come clean. You oftentimes, or men oftentimes in that space find themselves feeling really powerless. Because again, like Brandon said, the addiction really created that for you. You became powerless to your addiction, right? And then in becoming powerless to your addiction, you numbed yourself out from all of your emotions. You escaped your reality, you dissociated through life. So here you are and you're like, oh, whoa, I just got caught. Or maybe I'm deciding, hopefully you're deciding on your will to come clean about something. But I don't actually feel like I have the tools to feel powerful. Like how do I feel powerful in my addiction? And so many people healing in our spaces, they maybe even go through the motions, maybe even try some of the tools. But if you try any tools with a powerless mentality, you can't become powerful while believing that you are powerless. You can't transition to full victory in your union while believing that you are powerless. We give the analogy all the time of the dog with a tail in between legs. You know, I don't own a dog because I have four kids. I can't clean up another person or animal's freaking mess. So. But if I own a dog and we have in different seasons and they chewed up one of my favorite shoes and they came in with the tail in between their leg, I'm not like, oh wow, look at my dog willing to take responsibility. And I don't know what a dog that looks like they're going to take responsibility looks like, but you get the analogy. Like when you see the dog kind of coming in hunkered, you know, it's like mainly scared it's going to get punished, right? But the dog knows like, okay, my owner's gonna spank me, send me outside, yell at me, do something to me, whatever. Picture kids too. Picture kids that have done something wrong, that especially have grown up in a punitive home where they know they're gonna be punished. They're either A gonna try to hide or B, when they get caught, they're gonna get really small, they're gonna hunker in, they're gonna cry, cuz they know they're gonna get spanked, they know they're gonna get punished, they're gonna get sent away, sent to their room, whatever it is. So a man who's getting caught or even decides to come clean, when you take that like, okay, I'm just gonna get really small if I start crying a little Bit Mommy won't hit me so hard. Like, oh, okay. You know, And I use that example. I don't condone any hitting. I'm just meaning, like, that's kind of this mentality like, oh, am I gonna get spanked? Am I gonna get in trouble? Is she gonna put me in time out? She gonna take my cell phone from me? Am I grounded? You know, it's like the more we get small and small, it's like, oh, whoa. That doesn't look like somebody who wants to heal. That doesn't look like somebody who goes, oh my gosh, I made a giant freaking mess and I'm gonna clean it up, right? It's like, oh, oh. If my kids were to go into the fridge and grab the orange juice and spill it all over the floor, my kids are gonna grab the towels and the spray and they're gonna clean up their mess. I might not even find out about it. Cause they know, oops, made a mess, now I'm gonna clean it up. Most adults have no idea how to clean up their big messes. And obviously I'm talking broader than spilling orange juice. Like, you've been looking at pornography for 10 years. Come into that space ready and powerful to clean up your mess fully.
- [05:29]
A
I've seen men that get it because their approach is this really genuine, heartfelt. It's a, it's an initial brokenness, but not because of like a. I'm so ashamed. Like, I'm going to try to just, yeah, I don't matter. My wife doesn't matter. Like, I'm just going to, I'm going to lose everything. Whatever. It's this. They're broken because they know how valuable the relationship is and they know that there is more for them. And that's ultimately what led to them saying, wow, I was going this direction and that was destroying my life. And they kind of counted the cost and they're like, I need to see all this now because I know life is more than what I've lived from. And I think that there's two reasons it creates insecurity. The sexual addiction piece is because, one, if you believe that you are 100% responsible for the actions you're taking in your day to day life, then you would have to come to terms with on a nightly basis while you're in addiction, that you are willfully choosing to do things, whether that was the affair, that was the pornography, that was the lying about the finances. If you are 100% conscious of that all the time, you wouldn't be able to live with yourself. And so we talk about this in the. In the realm of denial is when you are in denial, you can blame other people. And when you are blaming other people, whether that was for the woman at your workplace that came on to you, whether that was the raunchy image that came up that you didn't mean to scroll on, that led down a rabbit hole of three hours of porn, if you can blame society, the woman in the cubicle next to you and the woman on the line and your wife's messy emotions, if you can blame everybody else, then that percentage of how responsible you are for your addiction goes lower, lower, lower. And you're like, well, I may be like 4% responsible for my addiction, but what happens with that perspective is now how. How responsible are you for your entire life? I only have about 4%. Say, if you told me that today, I'm about 4% of. I can dictate 4% of the quality of my life today, that I'm going to get hit by a car, that my life's just going to go horrible, and then I'm just at a whim of this dangerous, horrific world, I'm insecure, I'm scared. I don't want to face my wife. I don't want to face reality. And so this shift has to take place where you look at your life and say, wow, I'm 100% responsible for my life. If you want to not be insecure anymore, you have to look at your life and say, I chose this. Step one of Alcoholics Anonymous is that my life became unmanageable to the addiction, to the thing, and you became powerless to it. And we always talk about, you are not always powerless to your addiction, but you chose to hand over the keys of your power, of your authority, of your autonomy to the addiction. If you every night scroll on your phone for three hours, guess what? Tonight you're going to have the urge, desire, and willpower to do that again. If you start flirting with a coworker, guess what? When they smile at you and you walk in the door, because that's the energy you gave them, you're going to do it some more until you take back the authority. You take back the responsibility for where you're at. And so here's. Here's why you start to give away and blame others is because in sexual brokenness, let's use porn for an example, it creates a loop that you can't close. So when you send out your sexual energy, and let's just say you're Masturbating to two other people having sex or a naked image of a woman. When you are trying to arouse yourself and detach from your reality, which is you're a married man, and you picture this fantasy that's not real, you are aiming your sexuality out at that person, that image, that video. Guess what? You receive nothing. Even though where you're trying, like, I mean, you know, I want the dopamine, I want to this, that, and the other. Like, there's that angle. But you actually receive nothing in the exchange. When you have sex with your wife, you guys receive the mutual affirmation, the communication, the intimacy, the oxytocin from your body's connecting, the reality of having a sexual experience. When you masturbate to an image on a screen, guess what? Nothing gets reciprocated. So you.
- [09:07]
B
Nothing's real.
- [09:08]
A
You blow your load. I couldn't think of a better way to say it. And no one's there. There's no physical touch. There's no embrace of the woman you're with, which it should be your wife. You're just alone. Probably feel a little gross. You kind of took advantage, we'll say, even took advantage of somebody else. You kind of. You went behind closed doors of what somebody else looked like was doing in their sexuality, and you got no strength from it. So you're weak because you're not responsible and you're blaming everybody else, and you're weak and insecure because when you're trying to be sexual with anyone or anything that is not your partner, the loop doesn't get closed. So you're just draining all of your energy, all of your strength. All of the hormones our bodies use to create security, connection, and vitality don't exist when Caitlin and I have sex. We feel connected. We feel secure, we feel close. We see the full picture of our family cycle and all this beauty. And it's like if you go jerk off in a hotel room on your next work trip, do you feel connected to your purpose in life? Of course not. So those are the two things we really gotta address is who's responsible. It's you and understanding what the addiction did to you. And that's something we talked about a little bit last episode. But I knew that the actions themselves were not ideal. Like, oh, if Caitlin finds out, if mommy finds out, this is gonna hurt. I didn't realize that in taking the actions, I was changing my character and my identity and my ability to show up in the pain. I didn't realize that.
- [10:33]
B
Yeah. And I know we've said this before, but Brandon. Which we'll dive in. Brandon will probably have a lot to say after I start this topic. But, but Brandon, when we first started healing, you know, he knew he had some responsibility. Like he was like, I know I'm the one who, you know, has been looking at inappropriate things online. And there was a large part of him that was also like. And how, you know, cause this is a classic like marriage advice, you know, it takes two to. I don't even, I don't even know all the advice cuz I, I flushed it down the toilet. But you know, it's like it's always two to the issue. You know, there's always two stories, two parts, like two sides, everything, you know, and so that was his belief system. So of course it was like, I know that I looked at inappropriate things online, but it's because you said mean things to me, right? It's like, it's because you told me you didn't like our marriage. Like I, I remember I used to feel so disconnected. This is why, especially in our events, I'm like, we don't talk about anything surface level. This isn't about like how to communicate better and how to argue less. And it's like all of that is so surface level. How do I know that? Because for the first five years we actually went to a lot of counseling before we knew that Brandon, before, before we knew he knew, but before he was willing to decide to come clean that he had any sort of sexual brokenness. I had no idea about that. Had a lot of intuitive thoughts about it. Every time I brought it up, I was of course, course shut down, told that I was crazy insecure, overthinking things, whatever. But we went to counseling for many different things. Mainly because we had conflict, we had communication issues. Brandon I thought was overusing video games, but it was kind of like a taboo because it's like, well, it's not porn, it's just video games. So you know, so we went to counseling for all these different things and nothing worked. Nothing worked because if you live a life of hiddenness and secrecy, you don't have intimacy, you don't have into me. You see, we went to top caliber events, workshops, everything. We literally did everything we could because we thought we had a perfect, incredible, amazing marriage. Because Brandon was living in denial and because I had no idea what was actually going on. So this isn't about just getting a good new communication tool. This is about actually getting fully honest, fully transparent, being fully seen, having true intimacy. That's how you actually create. Create the marriage that you want to create. Right? So, Brandon, for the first five years of this mentality of, you know, I know I'm looking at appropriate things, but you're also just not really that nice. So that's actually why we have the disconnect in our marriage. Right? And so even when he decided, well, he got caught, but even when he decides after getting caught to, you know, reveal some more truths of what he had been hiding in those first five years of our marriage, it was still under the guise of. But you still have a lot to work on because you're mean, you're justification. Yeah. It's all just a lot of blame, blame. A lot of minimizing of what he had done. You know, kind of like, oh, let's just shove some of this under the rug, and let's just magnify what you've been doing. Right? And his counselor, the one that we ended up keeping, told him exactly what we tell you guys, no, you are 100 the cause, and you are 100 the solution. And that hit Brandon so deep, it was like, you know, one of those, like, sucker punches to the gut where you're like, oh, whoa, that's such a different narrative than your wife had 50% part to play. And I'm not saying here that women have no part to play in this. They have nothing they need to clean up. They have nothing they need to shape up. But for the most part, and most people are going to absolutely agree with this, Women are the ones who are saying, I'm willing to do the work. Women are the ones who are saying, let's listen to this podcast. Women are the ones who are saying, let's listen to Brandon's real. Let's join the community. Let's go to the event. Why am I the one so spearheading, saying, I want this marriage to heal and I'm ready to do the work. Right? They're not saying, I'm absolutely perfect. I have nothing to clean up. You have all the issues. They're saying, no, let's get our mess cleaned up. And men typically are the ones going, well, you're mean. So that's why I look at porn and that's why I sleep with other women, because you don't have enough sex with me. Right? And so when Brandon got hit with this reality of like, whoa, I made this mess and I'm 100% responsible, and that's a gift. That's not a curse. That's a gift. Like, I have everything within me to clean this mess up. I saw immediate radical changes from how he was willing to respond to our situation.
- [14:52]
A
It made my focus easier, which a lot of the addiction stems from approval seeking behavior. So I want, I thought that my main goal in marriage was to make sure you didn't get upset, was to make sure there wasn't any conflict, whether that's being avoidant attachment, whatever, the, you guys can use whatever lens that makes sense for that. But like I wanted Caitlyn's approval and as I did for the whole world around me. And what I found out quickly was in a, in a marriage relationship, you aren't always like, if there's, and again, this is significant things under the surface, if they're being hidden, there's a disconnect. But I labeled the disconnect as her attitude towards me. She doesn't approve of me as a person, therefore she hates me. I'm isolated, I'm rejected from her. So I'm gonna go get that, that, that affirmation I need through a half naked woman on a screen smiling at me because she is not smiling at me, she's not approving of me. And so approval seeking behavior runs really deep because it's like, well, I'm doing everything else. So the me, I'm okay, I'm accepted, I'm loved. But the issue is the world's not going to give you that message unless you have it in yourself. Your wife's not going to tell you you're, you're loved, you're accepted, just as you are if behind her back you're stabbing her and you can't handle any intense emotion. And so what, what made, why I say I made it easy when I had that revelation spoken to me was I didn't need the appro. Caitlin's approval to completely own my results, my growth. I actually didn't need her to say, you're going on the right track, good job, sweetie. Or she could actually come to me, say, I don't trust you. Like, I'm disgusted by everything you me today. I'd be like, it changes nothing. It changes nothing from like how I'm going to proceed. Like, thank you, I'm going to keep going. I'm responsible. I'm responsible for the mess I made. I'm responsible for the man I created, for the monster I created. I'm going to look that man in the mirror. I'm going to look my wife that I wounded in the mirror or in the face and say, wow, okay. Because if you're 100% responsible, then you are 100% the solution. Like, if I have to wait for Caitlin to be ready to see me differently, when is that happening? If you are the one that wounded your spouse, if you started seeing yourself differently, you're completely in control. That if I just looked at my situation differently, I can start making massive progress. And I'm going to get a different version of her as well, because she's going to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, why are you not. Why are you not so insecure in the way you're asking? Why are you not telling me you did your recovery work so that I could tell you, good job. And it's like, whoa. She's like. She's kind of getting on board, too. But again, you don't take your focus off of you onto her and see, like, is she keeping me? Because that's the biggest thing is a lot of men are like, they're insecure, they're hurt. They were masking some sort of pain. So now your biggest fear is actually coming true. Your wife's saying she might leave. What do I do to keep her? You take your focus off of her because apparently you actually don't care about her. You can't care about her because you're a victim to the world around you. You're outsourcing your sexual energy, which degrades the entire foundation of your relationship. You actually need to look inward and say, what type of man am I? And you actually say, wow, nobody else is going to. Is going to wave the flag and say, hey, can somebody get this guy some help? Your wife's not going to do it for you. You actually have to look yourself in the mirror and say, who did I become from this addiction? Who did I become from this affair? And then you ask yourself, do you. Do you want to become somebody different? Is anybody else going to do it for you? And the answer is no. And that. That becomes really good news because it narrows your. Your focus to, wow. I can look at myself with courage because I was the one that actually wounded myself. There were people who did things against me, but they're not here. Like, your abuser is probably not here. If you were sexually abused, the kid that bullied you in high school, nobody else is going to come and fix this for you. You get the opportunity to be powerful in your pain and say, I'm ready to see it now. I ran from it. I ran to the addiction. I ran to the approval from other women, from other things that got me here. I'm not going to blame her, her, her, or her. I'm going to look myself and say, who do I want to become? And then you know what? You get to celebrate your. Your.
- [18:28]
B
You.
- [18:28]
A
You get to know if you're changing. You don't wait until she notices you keep going. And she will just respond powerfully.
- [18:34]
B
Which. I say this all the time because it needs to be said all the time. And that's. If you're trying to convince your. If you've been the one who's caused the betrayal that's wreaked the havoc that's been living in addiction, and you're trying to convince your spouse of anything. Like, if you have to convince anybody of anything, then it's not the reality. I don't have to convince you that I'm wearing a green shirt, I have brown hair, and I have blue jeans on. Because that's the reality when you look at it. You see unless you're colorblind.
- [18:59]
A
And as we don't agree on the color.
- [19:01]
B
True.
- [19:02]
A
That's something we're still working as.
- [19:03]
B
This is green. Okay. And I have brown hair and I have brown eyes. I don't have to convince anybody of that. So if you're trying to convince your wife of anything, if you're trying to convince your spouse of anything, then it's not clear. Okay?
- [19:14]
A
Yeah.
- [19:15]
B
You never have to convince somebody of something that's clear. So if it's not clear, stop talking and start doing something that transforms you so that it becomes clear.
- [19:26]
A
Interesting.
- [19:27]
B
Brandon did not have to stop, like, keep convincing me. Like, oh, did you want to give me a gold star because I'm doing my own body work? Oh, did you see I did that men's call over there? Don't you believe in me so much? Like, don't you see that I'm changing and transforming? Like, oh, my gosh, gag me. Absolutely not. Your spouse does not want to hear that after coming off all of this massive news that they're. They're uncovering about the truth of their reality. They don't want to give you gold stars. They don't want to give you a pat on the back.
- [19:53]
A
Like, come on, you don't want that.
- [19:54]
B
Think about that for a second. Do you really want a pat on the back after you've slept with 13 other women and looked at porn for 10 years and fill in the blank for whatever you've been doing? Do you want to pat on the black because you've had one good day of making a phone call and doing some embodiment, and maybe you decided to Initiate having a deep, hard conversation. Like, do you really want a pat on the back? No. Like, you just cheated on your wife for your whole marriage. She's just waking up to the reality that she's been living a lie for so long. You don't need a gold star, a pat on the back. You need to wake up. You need a vision. You need to wake up every single day committed to your transformation. And she'll see it, and she'll believe it, and she'll. When she sees it, she doesn't have to be convinced of anything. She'll start seeing you become a completely different human. And you're doing this for you. So many men are in our space, and they are separated, if not on. Like, they might be signing divorce papers soon, and they're still in the space because they want to heal. They want to take responsibility. Your spouse might leave you. Like, there are people that have graphic. Graphic stories. Like, so many people. I'm like, holy moly. For those of you that are staying with your spouse after that many years of addiction and lying and betrayal, like, I believe that it's redeemable. I do. And wow, like, that is incredible that you would stay with somebody after all of that. And so I have no shame to cast on any woman who says, I'm tapping out, I'm done. I'm getting a divorce. Because you've slept with 20 people. You know what I mean? So. But there are men in the space still going, I still want to heal because this isn't about my wife. This isn't about anybody else. This is about me taking responsibility for my life to become a completely transformed person. And guess what? You know what I always tell people? If you don't heal, 100% guarantee your wife will leave you. 100% guarantee your spouse will leave you, because why would they stay in a relationship that's. That's not progressing towards connection and intimacy? If you heal, I don't even care if you're divorced. I've heard so many stories about people get divorced and remarried. If you decide to heal, even if your spouse is leaving you right now, you take back your life. You transform your life. Not pretend, not a show. You can't fake it. Remember, you'll have to do a lot of convincing. If you're faking it, you're not convincing. You're not faking. You 100 take responsibility back for your life. Your spouse is going to go and look and be like, wow, dang, that's the person I thought I was signing up to marry. That's the person I want to commit my life to.
- [22:12]
A
Again, if I have an example, when we're talking about like trying to convince somebody, think about a salesperson who really needs the sale or is trying to convince you to buy something, everybody feels put off by that person. When you're having a buying experience, whether you're buying a car or an appliance, and the person is there because they actually care about the topic, they care about answering your questions. They actually just became knowledgeable and they heartfelt care about the person that's buying the thing you want to buy from people like that. Now again, I'm not saying that you're going to do the work so you can sell your wife that you've had the transformation, but it's more of like, when you own it and embody the transformation, you aren't going to have to try to sell it to your wife. Hey, babe, I'm good now. And this is again the same thing with trust. Trust is not, I did the work, now you trust me. We're good, let's move on. Trust is rebuilt because you've embodied this new identity as a man that can take ownership for the mess. So before we dive into, I want to share with you guys two identities that you need to embody that will help you do this. But the first thing I want to talk about was a lot of men are really shocked by the mean things their wife says to them post discovery. And I was shocked, but I was shocked throughout our whole marriage. That's what that was. My justification is Caitlin said something mean to me that I didn't like in an argument. That was because I've been withholding from her or forgotten anniversary or went to bed early because I didn't want to spend intimate time on our date night. Like all these things. All these things. And a lot of men we hear are just like, oh, she said I'm an. She said I'm this. She called me a name and it's like. And that's abuse, right? Well, there's a thing called reactive abuse. We get called, we can call a lot of things abuse the moment your wife finds out you've been cheating on her and she has choice words to share with you. Like, I don't even know. Like, this is. This is a really big thing. Again, it's the approval seeking behavior. She calls me an asshole image. She thinks I'm an asshole.
- [23:52]
B
Well, then you can change the subject. It's not on me anymore. See, you did something wrong. You have a part to play in this.
- [23:56]
A
And especially if you came from a religious background where swearing is just a no go, and now she's swearing at you. And it's like, we need to. We need to clean up her mouth with soap before we can move on. Right? It's like, I don't know, you rubbed another woman. And we've said this so many times. Like, if your spouse, your wife who has been betrayed is like, really just. It's messy. She's saying really vulgar, intense things. Don't be surprised and look at her and say, yeah, it's actually way worse than you're describing.
- [24:25]
B
Right, exactly.
- [24:25]
A
And then you know what she does? She takes a deep breath. She says, oh, see, he sees how big this is. If you want to try to squash her down, keep her quiet, keep her from expressing the raw nature of what she's feeling, you can. And you guys can get divorced, or you can actually let her express what she's feeling. And this. I mean, it might be a week of it. Like, you don't need to stay in this intense concoction of chaos. You just literally say, yeah, it's actually, it's, yeah, 100%. Everything you're saying is completely true.
- [24:53]
B
We don't expect those that have survived from a car crash to come out exactly, perfectly the same. Composed, calm, at peace. They have ptsd. They have real trauma because they've lived through a really traumatic event. Your spouse who's hearing and finding out about really intense information in their marriage is living through a very traumatic event. If they're composed and at peace, something is going wrong, then there might be a little.
- [25:22]
A
They might have checked.
- [25:23]
B
They might have been numb. If they're there and they're weeping and they're always like. When people throw out the argument of, like, well, is it really okay that my wife calls me names and does. I'm like, give me some examples. Here's the examples you guys have is, you know, your wife might say, I wish I never married you. Oh, my gosh, you guys. Is that really that offensive? Is that really that offensive?
- [25:47]
A
Caitlin said that to me many times.
- [25:49]
B
You were masturbating, looking at other people, having sex. You were having sex with other people. You were fantasizing about sex with other people. You're attracted to everyone walking around out there. Is it really that unimaginable that for a minute, or maybe for a lot of minutes, she's thinking, wow, why did I marry you? That's actually a reasonable thing to be thinking when you hear this news.
- [26:09]
A
We also talked a lot about this, that Caitlyn never withheld what she actually felt towards me. And you're like, well, I wish you could just kind of keep some of it to yourself. And it's like, do you.
- [26:18]
B
No.
- [26:19]
A
Do you want to wake up one day and realize that your spouse had been bitter towards you for five years and then just had packed their bags and left? And we've heard stories like that. Yeah. Count it a gift. That what your spouse, what your wife is going through, she's willing to give you that raw, unfiltered lens into her soul. That means you don't have to guess.
- [26:35]
B
Yep. And she's not numbing out. That's what that means.
- [26:37]
A
Yeah.
- [26:38]
B
Some of the other examples are, you know, like I said, I wish I never married you. Some of them are, you're an asshole. We could probably fill in other words like, you're a dick, you're this, you're that, whatever. Like, fill in that. And let's just break down what those words mean. You know, here in the US Culture, it just means you're somebody who did something mean or you are a mean person or you did something bad, ugly, whatever. That's when we use that word. Right? That's when we use that word in any sort of genre or area. So it's like, is that true? I remember our counselor, the one who ended up kicking us out, but Brandon went to him because he's like, well, this is a Christian counselor. We're Christian. So I'll tell him. You know, Caitlyn told me that I am such an. Because I had been thinking about all these things and looking about all these things, and he just looks him straight in the face. Well, were you being an asshole when you did those things? Brandon goes another sucker punch to the guy. He's like, oh, yeah, I guess you're right. Dropped the story, stopped blaming me and went back to taking responsibility. Right. It's like when you slept with somebody, looked at other people sleeping together, you know, fantasized about things like, were you being a nice person? No, you weren't. So again, isn't it pretty reasonable that your spouse is essentially saying, hey, you're really mean? Again, when you've been in a car crash, you don't use really composed, kind, nice, calm words. You match the severity of the situation to stay alive. Because you're not going to say, wow, you're so mean. You slept with her. You've been sleeping with her our whole marriage. You're so mean. Like, does that even seem real? Like, I'm just Saying, you're such an asshole. How can you sleep with her? If you guys were watching us in a movie, you would think, wow, they're really bad actors. If I'm just like, you're so mean. How dare you have slept with 20 people, man? You're such a mean guy.
- [28:18]
A
Like, if you got in the car
- [28:19]
B
accident, be like, wow, they must have just graduated from acting school. But if I'm screaming, going, you're so mean. Like, you're like, wow, yeah, that feels like it fits the situation. So it's like, again, I'm not here saying that wives, like, we don't condone any sort of abuse, of hitting each other, throwing things at each other. Absolutely not. Call 911, get help right away. Like, that doesn't go down.
- [28:39]
A
Yeah.
- [28:39]
B
But when people have lived their lives of secrecy and addiction, are revealing that to their spouse, and they get upset that their spouse says, I wish I never married you. I want to divorce you. You're such an asshole. It's like, you guys, really. Come on. That's you trying to hunker down, tail between your legs, trying to point the finger, minimize what you've done, and blame it on your wife. You're trying to change the subject. Go, yes, of course you don't feel like being married to me. Of course you feel like I've done horrible things to you. I have done horrible things to you, and I'm here to show you with my actions that I'm going to clean up my mess. And I'm starting right now. Here's the things I'm going to do. Do you see the difference there between it. Well, that's rude that you called me that. So now I'm not going to talk to you, and that's why I'm not honest with you. And so now I'm going to go watch video games and you need to go get help. So see the difference?
- [29:29]
A
Yeah.
- [29:29]
B
Only one of those routes is healing.
- [29:31]
A
So I'm going to paint the picture then, because this is probably where a couple might find themselves. Let's imagine that you got caught lying and you just found the podcast. Your wife's cussing at you. She's upset. You feel ashamed. You feel like a victim to the world around you. You feel like you're minimally responsible for your situation. Your identity is very much wrapped up, and I'm ashamed of who I am. I want to give you two identities that we talk about a lot in our. In our grounded union, apparently. And that is, you must accept the responsibility and the Identity of I am the wounder of my wife and all that comes with that. So that's a very sobering acceptance. That's a. That that could be a process for you, but that's. That's part one is I am the man that wounded my wife. And you can accept that if you come to a place of acceptance. I had to get to that place where I was like, you know what? It's not because she wants too much. It's not because I'm immature or that she's. She doesn't understand the. The male anatomy and why I am the way I am. I realized I was the man that wounded my wife. And the second identity that is also true is I am the greatest advocate for her healing. I am the. I am the most qualified person on the planet to help my wife heal. You guys have heard us talk about counselors. We got a couple of good tips here and there. Got a couple of things that weren't helpful. Who helped Caitlin heal the most? It's me. Who's going to help your wife heal? Is it going to be a mentor? The other woman down the street that she goes and talks with? Is it going to be a pastor? Who's going to help your wife heal the most? She's going to wake up to your ugly mug tomorrow. You're ain't ugly. You're a handsome man. But she's going to wake up looking at you. You are the most qualified person on the planet. Wake up call. You didn't know that, but you're the most qualified person on the planet to help her heal and help your marriage thrive. So you are both the wounder of your wife and the greatest advocate for her healing. You're the most qualified person on the planet to help her heal. So if you feel ashamed, put on those two. Those two identities. I am the man that wounded my wife, and I am the man that will help her heal. Those can both be true at the same time if only one is trimmed. Yeah. I'm the man that wounded my wife, and I have no purpose. And I'm gonna just suffer for the rest of my life and I'm gonna have to just hear about it forever. No, you're the man that will help her heal. If you're choosing, like, if she's choosing the relationship, you gotta choose the relationship. Lean in. Be the man that helps her heal. Be the man that does the work. Be the man that's proud of who he's becoming. You have to take a sense of pride in both. If I When somebody says, so, why is your wife hurt? You don't look around like, why is she so upset? Oh, I wounded my wife. It was me. It wasn't anybody else. And then why is she healing? Why is she. Why are things looking better for you guys? I helped her heal. Let those both be true. And you don't be arrogant about it. But it's like, what better mission statement than I wounded my wife? And I will be the one that helps her heal. That's a man that cleans up his mess. That's a man that takes responsibility. Your shame will start to disintegrate because you're like, both things are true. And I don't have to ignore reality. I get to look at. I get to look at it daily and be proud of the progress that I'm making. And I'm willing to step into that place and be a healer in my relationship.
- [32:19]
B
Yeah. And I wrote down three things, actually, for why I think people either enter in or choose into a more powerless state. And the first reason is because you don't believe that you can heal. And we see that a lot. So it's like, like, we, We've touched on this a lot. Even in this episode, you feel powerless because you're like, oh, whoa, what was me? I, I, I can't heal. I don't know how to heal. I don't have the tools. I don't have this. I don't have that. Right. The second reason might be because you don't want to. You're like, wow, that looks like a long journey ahead. And I don't want to heal. So I'm going to choose into powerlessness. Right. The third reason, which comes up a lot when you hear me say this for pretty much everything, is that you actually know that you have more that you're hiding. So you're gonna still be powerless. You're still gonna be small, the dog with tail between the legs, because at your core, you know, you just got caught for something, or maybe you just disclosed something, but, you know, there's a lot more. You might actually not even know fully what it is.
- [33:17]
A
It's felt. I remember not knowing. I remember not. Can be asking me, like, is there more? And I'd be like, no.
- [33:22]
B
Right.
- [33:23]
A
But I deep down knew there was, but I couldn't access it because my own body was protecting me from me. So you might feel it. Be like, I can't put words to it. But, yeah, I know there's more.
- [33:32]
B
Yep. Eventually, Brandon, actually, this is side note. Eventually, he actually, the More embodied. He got. He started saying if I would ask a question, like, well, was there more times that you did this or was there more scenarios like this? And he would, he used to, in the beginning, he would say, no, like, absolutely. I remember he used to tell me, I have notes in my journals where he used to be like, absolutely not. That was the one and only time I never did it again. Or he would even say, like, I never did any of these certain things at these certain places and blah, blah, blah, blah. It was just like, like, clear. No, no, no. Never did it. Right. And then, you know, 10 days later, it's like, you ask a couple questions in a certain right way and you're like, oh, well, I thought you said you never did that. Right. So then fast forward, he becomes more embodied, actually takes 100 responsibility, becomes powerful. And he, he might recognize if I ask a question a certain way, he might recognize. Like, I can't see it right now yet. I know there's more here.
- [34:22]
A
Yeah.
- [34:22]
B
And I'm not going to stop till I uncover it. I'm not going to stop till I find it. And did he uncover it? Absolutely. He wasn't passive. He actually meant what he said. Again, he didn't have to convince me. I started seeing it. Right. So if you find that you feel very small and you feel very powerless, or even if you're the betrayed spouse and you see your spouse continue to be small and powerless, those are the three things you can assess. Like, okay, do they believe they can heal because we can change that? Do they actually want to heal because that can be changed? And then third, do they actually have more that they know that they're hiding? Because again, if you're hiding more, you can't be a powerful person. You'll always hear me say these, these, you know, verses. It's like, you can't be a powerful person that lives in hiddenness and secrecy. You can appear to be powerful. That's why pastors crumble left and right. They appear to be powerful, but they had a big, giant public fall.
- [35:13]
A
Yeah.
- [35:13]
B
Because they were actually hiding and living a life of secrecy.
- [35:17]
A
Yeah.
- [35:17]
B
The truth always comes out.
- [35:20]
A
Yeah.
- [35:20]
B
And so it's time to choose to bring the truth out. Right. The truth will always be revealed, but you can't be a powerful that lives a life of hiddenness and secrecy. Just if you still have things that need to come to the light and you're not bringing them to the light, you aren't going to be able to step into that full place of power. You're not going to be able to embody that. You're not going to be able to clean up your mess. You haven't even revealed the full mess. How do you clean up a mess you're hiding? Like, if I don't open the dang closets, I can't clean them. So you have to open up all your closets to clean out your mess, to take full responsibility and to be fully powerful. So if you find yourself getting small, how do you switch that? Okay. Have a vision for your belief in how you're going to heal, right? Start really looking at yourself in the mirror. Mirror work is one of the pieces of embodiment of I can heal, right? If you don't feel like you can heal, you can. You have permission. You can heal your wife. Your spouse is probably sitting there saying, you can heal, right? Look at yourself in the mirror and go, whoa, I can heal, right? And then the third one would be realizing, whoa, if I'm going to be powerful, I need to actually get out everything that's hidden. I need to get out all my mess, bring it to the table so that I can actually clean it up.
- [36:27]
A
That's so good. I think that what this also how you are able to do that, all that beautiful, beautiful frameworking on this layout sheet, I got to be the beneficiary of all this clarity Caitlin had when I was broken is I should just be like, you know, like, why don't we make this really simple? Why don't you just do this, this, and this, and we'll see what happens. And I'm like, caitlyn, make things so simple that I'd be like. Like, it made it really easy to see if I was wanting to do it or not. And I wish, I wish Caitlyn would, and I don't wish if things are too complicated, we have that. I didn't understand what she was saying. Freedom was. I knew so clearly what Caitlin wanted. And I was like, I couldn't play dumb. Like, it was, no, I couldn't. I couldn't pretend. And that's great. If you have a wife that's willing to lay it out there clear like Caitlin, give her a high five and a hug and say, I'm. I'm ready to play. Like, I'm ready to play. I'm ready to play the game. I'm ready to step into the court when it comes to this insecurity that prevents embodying the change. A lot of it is also what's been thrown around in accountability circles. Men's Groups, church circles, is this idea that we need to suppress desire. So you've got this wild walking erection issue where you're like over sexual and you're sexualizing the world around you and you have all these sexual fantasies and you have all this perversion. Yeah, we live in a sexual world. The easiest way to, to, to get that figured out would just be to cut off your penis and like, like they, they want. The, the message given to you is if you can just harness. Not harness it, that's the word. If you grit your teeth and stop misusing your penis, you'll be free. And everybody's like, so the only way. So I need to feel less because right now I don't have control of my, my sexual desire. I'm just misusing it. So I need to shut down. See, a lot of men in the recovery space that are very ashamed and they try to have less desire. And the issue is you can't, you can't unless you're going to numb out in another way. And these. Sometimes people are like, you know, I was sexualizing everybody, so I'm staying at home, I'm looking down. Looking down or staying at home is not sexual freedom. That's called sexual insecurity. Freedom is when, and this is what it looks like is you're actually harnessing your desire. Holistic, pure sexual desire will always lead you into your relationship, will always lead you into reality. You don't need to fear being fully sexual and fully alive. That's why we talk about how we view our biology, how we view attraction. Because if you say, well, if I'm fully in my sexuality, won't that mean I want to rear end the woman across the street? It's like, what if you being fully in your sexuality, in your testosterone leads to you screwing a bunch of women and that's your design, then you must fight against your design. That's why we say, what's the design, guys? It's not that we live half numb, half in our spiritual life and then we try to grit our teeth and not think about having sex with the porn star or the stranger or the friend. It's like, what if that's not. The solution is that we either shut down desire or pretend it's not there. We harness our holistic sexual desire, which will always lead you to your spouse. That has to be the belief shift, because if it doesn't, then good luck. If the devil can control you and you just have to cut off your penis and that's the only way you can be Free what? So no, you must turn up desire. A man that can look at his mess must be a courageous man that embodies his physical, emotional and spiritual body. So if you want to make changes in your relationship and your personal life, it's not by shutting down being woe is me. My life sucks. Like Caitlin said, the dog between the tail, it's, I have no, I, I just can't be sexual. It's like, no, you're so sexual that it will lead you to your spouse. Become a sexual connoisseur. And that doesn't mean your wife's going to open up and have sex with you this week. It might be a couple month journey for you guys if there's really a big mess. When your spouse is ready and when you've done the work to heal and rebuild trust, you're going to take your authentic sexual desire to your wife. You're going to clear out all the debris using the four hours that we've talked about from all your sexual past so that you can actually enjoy having sex. Sex is relational. So if you're not wanting to be relational sexually with other women, then you're good. Then you don't need to turn down the desire to have sex because all of that will lead to intimacy in your marriage, not anywhere else. You can't shut down to get free. You cannot shut down desire to become free. You harness it, you turn it up and you honor it. And it will always benefit your relationship.
- [40:45]
B
I think the number one question that comes when we start talking about this is, well, what about me? I'm either not married, I'm dating, I'm engaged, or for a lot of you, I'm separated right now. So while that sounds really nice, Brandon, I want to have sex with my wife as much as I can. Wanna have sex with my girlfriend all the time. I don't even have a girlfriend. So that's why I think about having sex all the time. And we're making this about. And you know, and I even want to say there, there's people in our spaces actually, which I think is incredible. If you're listening and you are engaged people are like, should we join your community for engaged or if we're dating, it's like, absolutely. If you can enter into a marriage without having any hiding, without having any secrets, like clearing and rewiring your brain, like, holy moly, I wish I had that right. And that's why we're offering this. And maybe someday we'll create something that even more so for that demographic of People. But there, there actually is a handful of people in our space that are single. Either whether that was because they're separated or they've never been married, whatever the case is, they are single. And they're like, can I actually rewire my brain and not be attracted to women outside? It's like, absolutely. And they're like, well, then where do I harness and send the energy? It's like, you guys, this isn't about only having sex with people. This is about feeling alive, okay? When you entered into your powerless state because you gave the keys of your life and your power to your addiction, you shut down your life. That's why we interview everybody on season three. It's like you guys can't actually even see them. But when you're talking with them, when you're engaging with them, I remember even asking a handful of them, like, do you feel alive? Do you feel vibrant, whole, happy, excited, content, at peace? Use any of these beautiful words and the answer is always no. Ask yourself that right now. If you've been living in addiction, can you use any of those words to describe how you feel? No. Sex isn't your only solution. Sex in your marriage. Some of you haven't had sex for like a God awful amount of years, like shocking jaw to the floor amount of years, right? Just, just picking up and having sex in bed tomorrow doesn't actually solve your issue. You need to take responsibility for your life, which does look like taking responsibility for your sexual energy, harnessing that in your marriage, in your relationship. And it also looks like taking back your responsibility in your life and your sexual energy and going outside, going for a walk, go do a cold plunge, go jump in a cold river, go to like, go hike somewhere really hard, go lift heavy weights, go push yourself, get off your freaking butt on the couch, turn off your video games, turn off your screens, rip them off the. If you're single, throw away your freaking TVs. Turn your phone on airplane mode for most of your life. If you are separated right now, if I'm saying if you're not with somebody and you're like, well, just want to have sex. Yeah, everyone wants to have sex. If they're sitting around playing video games, staring at inappropriate movies, scrolling on social media, saying half naked people like, like, yeah, we'd all want to have sex. Of course we want to have sex. You're just looking at sexual things. It's like the whole narrative of when we realize like, oh, I'm not a victim, I'm not powerless, I don't live in this sexual culture. Like, Brandon used to believe that all the time. Like, well, there's girls in yoga pants everywhere. I can't go to the gym. Oh, my gosh. Side. So many side notes for me. I saw this real was. It's like, cool. And I'm also like, whoa. This just hints at our culture. It's this guy who's starting an all men's gym, which, of course, like, cool, cool. Like, I. I love this concept, right? And it's just hinting at the. The. The frameworks that we get stuck in, right? He's starting this all men's gym because he realized he's a Christian man. He realized every time he'd go to the gym. It was so unfair, is the language. It's so unfair how other women dress, right? Brandon could go to any gym anywhere. We go to places where women are wearing thong bikinis. Neither of us care. It doesn't matter. It's not like we care. It's not like the old counselor where we're like, we don't care. We just laugh at it.
- [44:26]
A
Let's see.
- [44:27]
B
Look at the thong. You know, it's. It has no charge. It has no curiosity. There's no power there. There's no potential there. There's nothing there because the brain has been rewired. The reticular activating system has been rewired. It doesn't matter. It's like, we can create an all men's gym, but that's kind of like saying when we go outside, we must avoid women at all costs, because women in yoga pants are evil and women with large chests are evil and women dressed in a certain way. And I'm also not condoning that. Women just dress however they want. That's women being insecure in ways, too. But. But when you become powerful in your life, nothing else anybody does or wears matters. Because you're powerful. You're responsible. To make an all men's gym is giving away your power. That man, those men, they don't have to show up to rewire their brain to heal, to realize, oh, I can enter anywhere at any time, and none of that impacts me. Okay, that was my total side thought. But to wrap up, if you are single, if you're separated, whatever it is that's going on, if you're like, well, where do I harness the sexual energy that you're talking about? Go outside. Stop living in a screen world. Stop living in a world where you're avoiding women at all costs. Stop living in this world where you feel powerless to. To what's out there that's really scary. Go outside, get moving, get doing something that feels like. If you like red mics, go for a bike ride. If you like art, if you like reading, if you like writing a book.
- [45:44]
A
Like, you might actually find your partner there.
- [45:46]
B
You might find your partner doing the freaking things you love. Not hibernating in your cave, just binging on screens. Yeah, you're gonna want to have sex. You're gonna want to masturbate. You're gonna want to look at porn. If you're outside going for a hike and doing a cold plunge, you get the dopamine hit, you get from having sex.
- [46:03]
A
Also, the main thing with sex, as Caitlin's describing it, is most people have used sex, masturbation, orgasm, as an escape from reality. When you heal your sexuality, sex is the means for connection to reality. You wouldn't even look like, oh, I'm alone in a room. I should masturbate right now, or I should look at other people having sex. It's like, no. Sex is what binds you to somebody else. So it'd be like, not like, okay, if I want to have sex, it means I need to go to a coffee shop and meet somebody I can have sex with.
- [46:30]
B
Right?
- [46:31]
A
It's a little longer term than that. It's actually that, wow, I'm wired for connection. If you've used sex as a way to escape reality, it's actually just a lesser potency of what it can be. When Caitlyn have sex, it's increasing. Incredible. It drives us to this present moment, and I'd like to apologize. There's a window washer that's on the other side of this window. They can hear us talking about this. So he's getting some of this too. And that's why we want you guys to make that shift. And basically what. What Kaylin was saying, I wanted to give you this little glimpse too. A naked body is not sexual. We don't go naked with our friends to a barbecue. Like, trust me, we're not. We're not, like, bizarre like that.
- [47:06]
B
That's next level.
- [47:06]
A
That's next level. With that said, nudity is not sexual. Do you know what is? Having sex. That's where we get to. And you get to that. Because if you've been stuck in this digital world where you've created, you've fine tuned your algorithm, which I don't aimlessly scroll on social media, but when I open my phone to, like, make a post or something, my algorithm, the recommended videos, I. It's been years since I've had a sexualized video show up on my phone because guess what? I haven't looked any up. The algorithm. I think even more so now than ever before. Social media is not. It's not actually giving you naughty things. It's actually just giving you what you've already done, gone to. Now that if you let that sink in, like this whole. The world's a sexual place, like Caitlin said, like I started going through, I'm like, wait a second. I created the world around me. I made women to be hypersexual and arousing in this way. I saw them as sex objects that went away. The appearance of a woman's. Because if a woman's wearing jeans, yoga pants, or is completely naked, there's not that much of a difference. If, if you're looking at her chest, the outline of her breasts through her sweatshirt, tank top, swimsuit or bare chest online, very minimal difference. We can see the appearance of each other's bodies if we want to. The question is, do you want to? Because that will make you feel insecure. That will leave you seeking the approval from others that you don't actually want approval from. That'll leave you doing some really weird stuff. So what we're. What we're saying from the bottom of our hearts in this episode, become a secure man. It's proud of how you utilize your sexual energy and you won't ever have to shut it down. You actually just get to enjoy it and harness it. That's it. That's the whole story. And so if you're like, man, this really spoke to me. This really spoke to us. We dive even deeper on these topics in our two day workshop happening in San Diego. It's August 14th and 15th. Can join us in person at the time of this recording. There's a few VIP tickets left. There's some more general admission. You can also get a virtual ticket if you live somewhere else in the world or aren't able to make it to San Diego. If you're a couple that needs immediate support, rebuilding trust, working through addiction. You want access to our Grounded Intimacy program weekly coaching forum where we answer questions all in a private app off social media. You can apply for a spot using the link in the show Notes for our couples app. And if this episode has impacted you or the show has helped you, would you forward it to somebody else? And please leave a review wherever you're listening, whether it's Apple, Spotify or YouTube. If you've been listening to this, you didn't know we had the video show. It's on Spotify and YouTube. I think Apple's adding video soon. So go find the video of us. We'd love to be in the room with you and talk with you again, but we'll see you next week for the next episode.