Caitlin (2:37)

Yeah. What's. Where is the pain stemming from? Or what's the thing that you said that that's entered into the relationship? What are you referring to?

Dave (2:47)

Pornography addiction? I mean that's the main sort of outward expression of my character defects, as it were. I am in a 12 step group. Celebrate recovery. I don't know if I'm allowed to say.

Caitlin (3:01)

That's great. Yep.

Katie (3:02)

Yeah.

Dave (3:03)

So I've been going to that for two years. I'm in a step study with them where we're going as a group of guys. We're going through a. Going through all the steps together. So I'm working through that. But yeah, it's just been, I'm discovering so many, so many character defects in myself. It's just, it's overwhelming and it's. Yeah, it's overwhelming both of us.

Katie (3:24)

Yeah. I think like, obviously I had no idea going into marriage that any of this existed until about four months in. And then it just started that cycle of like, I didn't know how to deal with it because I didn't even know existed. And it's just been. Yeah, like 16 years of it. And we've, like I said, we've done couples counseling, we've done individual counseling, 12 step group. I was part of a betrayal trauma group. It just, yeah, it feels like we have just like dug. Tried to dig deep but we just quite can't get there.

Brandon (4:00)

And so then the pornography addiction, you've stated that that has outdated the marriage. Right. And we'll, we'll circle back to when that started. So that's outdated. The marriage came into marriage and that is still continuing on. I just want to make sure I grasp the whole story. That's not some, that's still a, a significant, we'll call it like burden that you face each day. Is that correct?

Dave (4:22)

Yeah.

Brandon (4:23)

Okay.

Caitlin (4:24)

I had one. As far as like I'm, I'm weary to like say sobriety dates because it can create like a very confusing like false sense of like we're free now. But as far as the use of pornography, we'll just refer to hardcore pornography at this point. When was the last date of, of use?

Dave (4:46)

I think it was about two months ago now.

Caitlin (4:48)

Two months ago. Okay. So even so within the, within the like 12 step groups and all this, all the work, there's still been a. I'm going to use, we'll use like addiction language. Even though we're not big on this. Like, we're going to what this conversation is going to be. Is a lot about, like, kind of like plucking you out of the boxes you feel like you're in. Like, we've got it. We've got Dave. He's in addiction recovery. Dave is in this cycle. Dave is edging. Dave is relapsing. We'll just use some of the language, but then we're going to pluck you out of that box. And then, Katie, we're gonna. I think. I don't know why this is the phrase, but I want you to, like, turn up your pain. Frustration. What's the word? Fed upness with. Not with Dave. Like, you love Dave. You guys are sitting shoulder to shoulder. It's clear you guys love each other. We're done with the cycle. Like, you. You guys. I don't even feel like. I'm sure there's. Sure there's heated conversations, but right now, you both. I see it in your eyes. You're done with the cycle. You're not done with each other. But if you can't get out of this roller coaster, one of you. Both of you gonna die from throwing up so much. This doesn't. Doesn't work.

Katie (5:58)

Yep, that's exactly where we're at. We're just like, we want the same goal when we're in, like, those moments of clarity. We both want it to succeed, but then it just, like the pain and the trust and everything just.

Brandon (6:11)

You've been kind of looping on the same thing for 16 years now, which is a really long time to keep looping on everything. And I want to get a little bit more foundation to understand the story. How much of the podcast or our community, like, how much of that do you understand kind of about what we walk people through? Have you guys listened to the podcast and then. Are you in the community?

Dave (6:33)

Okay. Yeah. Katie first suggested the podcast to me a few months ago, and I. I've listened to the entire first season, and I kind of started over at the beginning again because, like, I can't move on until I start absorbing some of this because there's just so much. So pretty dense. So I binged it over the course of, like, two weeks. And so that's kind of my. That's where I'm at with it. Yeah.

Brandon (6:58)

Yeah.

Katie (6:58)

For me, like, when I found your podcast, it. It felt like a breath of fresh air. Like, it was the first time that I felt like my side of the story felt validated because so much of our journey has felt like it's focused on Dave's addiction and Dave's pain from that and not being able to do certain things, and I. And to mold to be something different so that he could do that. And it just. It. There was so much that I resonated with in your story, and just like this desire to write our own story because we have done everything, and. And I think that we have taken stuff at it. Like, if we go to a psychiatrist and they say, you should do this, then we do that. And it's like, yeah, this still isn't working. And it just, like, I realized that it's not going to work because it is so complex, and it is our own story, and we are the biggest advocates for it. And I'm just. Yeah, I'm tired of just, like, doing the same thing. I just. Yep, yeah, yep. Something different. And that felt like the first time in years that I felt something different. Listening to your podcast.

Brandon (8:06)

Yeah, yeah. It's kind of the. The classic journey we always explain where it's like you've genuinely given it your all. Like, both of you have probably given it 16 years of effort, right? And here we are still talking through kind of how to move into a whole new season because you're cycling on this same roller coaster, Right. And so I just always like to make sure that there's a foundational understanding of what we're kind of gonna take or walk you through. I always like to start. And you maybe have something you want to say, too. I always like to start with going back to. Since we're talking about pornography here and you know this, you guys know this, having listened to our podcast, and you all who are listening to season three, hopefully have listened to the first two seasons as well. You know that we do not associate with the belief system that we're only tackling the pornography here. Right? The pornography. It's like, I literally like to reference nature in a lot of things. It's almost like we're looking at a weed, right? And so it's like the top of the. Here we have the soil, and the top of what's sprouting up is the pornography, and underneath is actually the root cause of what's going on. And it Sounds like for 16 years, you're just plucking the same top of the weed, and you're not actually getting below the surface. So we all know this. What happens if we pluck the top of the weed? We can't get to the root of what's actually underneath there, right? So then a little bit of water, a little bit of sun, and the weed grows back up. And so as much as I think that pornography needs to go in people's life, it's not really the main thing I'm looking for. I'm looking for what's beneath the surface. Because once you get that, you don't have to worry about feeling tempted about pornography any day. Like, I'm here to say, because I remember many counseling sessions where we sat down and the person's like, oh, they would have looked at someone like you and gone, okay, you know what? Just some men like you struggle with this for the rest of your life. Just keep praying harder, keep battling, keep trying to read all of the books. But essentially what I'm saying is there's fundamentally with something wrong with you from birth. None of any of that makes absolutely any sense. And so what we're here to say is there will be a day that you live not even thinking about pornography. It's not even going to be like, oh, I'm tempted, you know, because there's this one train of thought that's like, okay, if you're tempted to look at pornography but you don't, then you're victorious. And it's like, does that really sound very victorious? Like, do you actually want to live like that? No, you don't want to live like that. You, that's just another layer of bondage, right, where you're still bound to the belief system that, that has power over you. Our core message is that you can break free from all of the power that that has over you. So to where it's not an urge, a temptation, a desire, a poll, any of those words we want to throw in where you are completely free, able to enjoy the bliss and beauty and connection of your union. And so I always like to take it way, way, way back to the beginning. So when do you remember first having an exposure to a sexual experience that could be a in person relational, like body to body experience, or this could be exposed to an image, photo, video, that kind of a thing.

Dave (11:29)

Yeah, that's definitely something I've been digging up. And it's only something you learned about somewhat recently that I mentioned it. I was sexually molested, I think I was 8, 7 or 8, by a neighborhood kid who's a boy who's about 12, he's older than me. And it's something I just, I shut down. I never told anybody, didn't tell my parents. I don't know if he told me not to tell anybody or if that was just something. I just knew this was wrong. And I, I just Tried to bury it in my mind, in my life. And yeah, that's what I've done. Up until a few years ago. I just kind of thought, well, you know, it was when I was a kid, sort of forget about it. But as I'm digging through all this stuff, I'm realizing it probably is one of the most profound influences on what I would call my shame identity, which I've never, outside of one moment a couple years ago, I've never dissociated. Shame and guilt, they've just been equals in my mind. They were the same thing. That guilt equals shame. Yeah. Yeah. So that would be the, the first memory that I have of any kind of like sexual exposure like that. But there are other, like, pornographic exposures in addition to that too. Around those years.

Caitlin (12:54)

I wanted to. You said it felt like, thank you for sharing that. And I don't even know how to like. It's more like obviously words never. It's like when you talk to somebody that's either had a loss or experienced abuse. I don't, I. There's no words I could offer that would fill the void from what was taken from you, Dave. And in that experience, it's devastating. I have an eight year old. It's like in your state of innocence, that was taken from you. And it sounds like even though the memory is unclear, if your abuser told you not to tell somebody or not, it seems like you knew that. So he probably did tell you that. We have no idea. But I just find that that's such a. Like you said, you've already kind of started digging that up to realize, like, wow, there is something just fundamentally off with me because of this experience I had that was done to me, that maybe it potentially felt good, maybe it was painful, but it just basically marked that sexuality is outside of my control and it's bad. And this is like, it associates pain, but it also. There's still pleasure involved with any sexual experience we have because of the way we experience pleasure in our bodies. What I wanted to do, I wanted to explore the story more. And you're really good at that. I wanted to talk about like, because we talk about porn a lot and I think in our modern world, some people think porn's not a big deal. Why does everybody care? Like, we watch porn together. Like, who cares? So I want to more speak to. Because we have a very broad audience of people listening that think porn, porn isn't a big deal, or people that are like, of course porn hurts. I want to kind of identify, like, why does porn hurt? Or why do we think porn lessens our experience of sexual intimacy and safety in the marriage? I want to speak primarily to the person using the porn first. So, Dave, in this instance, it was you and then Katie. I want to speak to what it signifies for you as. As the person that finds out, I think what porn, why porn hurts, is for you, Dave, specifically. I. I haven't met anyone that basically pursues porn out of a place of, like, clear identity and like a full cup. Like, they feel like really full in who they are. They know who they are, and life's going great. I had a wonderful day, therefore I end the day with porn. It's actually stemming from anxiety. It's trying to regulate emotionally. Feeling depressed, feeling lonely, feeling angry, bored. All these things are actually the primary reasons we pursue porn or seeking affirmation, seeking affection. If you're not receiving affirmation from your relationship, then you go to porn because there's somebody that's naked and smiling at you, and that's not happening in your relationship. So that's why. But that system, and this is. This is what most people don't touch on, which I really like to make this clear, is I don't think. I think there's a lot of reasons porn is hurtful because one, you know, there's all the abuse. It's not your spouse. It's all these, all the implications it does to your mind and distortion. All of that is true as a man seeking porn. When you extend your sexual energy to somebody that doesn't reciprocate it to you, it basically takes away all of your strength, makes you a very weak person because you're giving out this sexual expression to something on a screen, but it never gets reciprocated back. And so it creates this. The feedback loop actually, like, falls flat and flat. So then you feel ashamed, then you feel weak, then you feel like a loser, and then it perpetuates. Katie, porn hurts. And I'm. I'm just going to generalize you. You probably have specific reasons for why porn hurts for you. For most women, if their spouse, if their husband's using porn, it brings up insecurities, of course. Why is my husband getting aroused, looking at other men, women's bodies, and mine not being good enough? It's also a. It's a betrayal of the safety and the trust of what you. How you guys have committed to using your sexuality. It brings up all these questions, all this debris, all this junk that's like, why am I not enough? Is the primary Thing and a lot of confusion, like, why didn't you come to me with what you were feeling? Why didn't you come to me with your sexual desire? Why was I not enough? So I think that's why point porn hurts. And I think why porn is used or sought after is just to feel something. So if. If you are not feeling, if you're feeling depressed, if you're feeling stuck in life, if work's not going well, if your kids are frustrated, whatever is going off, it's like, you know, if you go to porn, you'll feel something. It will take the ache of the. Of the aching feeling in your body to feel something different. Now you just feel pits in your stomach because you did it again. The reason I give all of that context is, I think, like Caitlin said, it's not about the porn. The porn does matter because it wounds you and it wounds your spouse. Dave, I want to know why you don't love your life. This is like a rhetorical question, but you can answer it too. Why have you tolerated a life that you do not love? And what I would say with that is, where is your pain? Like, what are you running from? And are you willing to face, like, that person, like, who you are, that you don't like the feelings you're afraid of feeling? Because if you're willing to face that, then we never need porn again. And you're going to be empowered to face all the repercussions and the pain that Katie has been through because you're willing to step into that new identity. So what. What's the pain that you're running from, Dave?

Dave (18:40)

Well, you actually kind of mentioned it earlier. You mentioned, I think you said, like, a general dissatisfaction with who I am. And I have kind of always known. I haven't always been able to put words to it, but I've. I've always not known. That's not good language. But I've felt that I. I've always felt that I'm defective in some way, that there's something. Something wrong with me. I always felt like I could not be good enough. I grew up in a legalistic church, and I think there were a lot of rules around that. I felt like I was going to hell, like, and there was nothing I could do to keep myself from going there. I just couldn't do all the right things. I was always making mistakes. And yeah, it was just a shame identity and that I felt like I was fund. There was something fundamentally wrong with me at my core. And I've. I've been trying to figure out what that is. And yeah, that's been part of my journey lately. I mean, I've been trying for years, but digging deeper and deeper as I go, trying to find out what the source of that is. Where did that come from? It could be that sexual abuse. I. That happened to me when I was 8, 7 or 8. That could have been the start of it. And maybe just other things. Being exposed to pornography since then and just family dynamics, you know, I think I've. I don't know if this relates to the question, but I have always. I can. From my earliest memories, before I even understood what sex was or knew anything about it, I had sexual desires. I remember 6, 7, 8 years old feeling sexual desires in my body. And I don't know why.

Caitlin (20:27)

Well, that's good. That's good. That's. None of those things are bad. That's actually. Caitlyn's got something really good. I just want to say that that actually is the. We'll call it the construct of religion. I'm not saying. Jesus. I'm not so anybody that's listening, that's under that. I'm not. You from a young age thought that your sexuality was evil. Instead of being like, yes, going to harness it, you probably. And you were exposed to a ton of stuff. You were abused. Like, of course it's, it's being distorted, but you are not evil. And so what I would say become more sexual in the sense of actually knowing what sexuality feels like in your body and like, not just like a. The story of sexuality, but the feeling of it. And it will never lead you somewhere outside of Katie. Like, it won't lead you to, like looking at the woman down the street to, to fantasizing about your neighbor. Like, it literally will just. If you go into. What does feeling sexual feel like? It's rel. Sex. Sex is relational. It's not conceptual. It's. It's literally like an actual relating activity we do within the confines of, of marriage union, which is what we've chosen to do because it creates that synergy that's safe and, and, and protected. So I would say sec. Your sexual. Even that narrative was like, oh, so bad. It's like, no, it's just like it just didn't have the right parameters for me for whatever reason.

Brandon (21:47)

Yeah. I have a couple areas I want to go and I wanted to add to that, that you're just bringing up here is that you, you can remember, you know, predating, you know, before even the abuse, feeling sexual feelings in Your body, maybe even not knowing if that was good or bad. Something I always like to bring awareness to which you can sit on as you reflect your story more is what was your. Your. Did you have mom and dad in the house raising you?

Dave (22:13)

Yes. Yeah, until I was 16. Yeah.

Brandon (22:15)

Okay. And so one thing I always like to bring awareness to that you can reflect on even as this. As this episode finishes, is you may or may not know the sexual energy that your father and even mother were actually bringing into the home. So possibly you do or don't know this. It's possible that your own father or mother or both was addicted to pornography or some form of sexual. They could have had an experience of being exposed to something sexual, brought that into the home and in. Been engaging, because that's a real, actual energy. That's why your guys' people want to be like, oh, that doesn't make a lot of sense. It's like, well, why is your marriage crumbling? Because the energy that you're bringing in with a pornography is a felt energy that nobody like. It's like kind of like, what's that saying where there's like, something in the room and you can't. Like, nobody can see past it. You can't. It's the elephant in the room, right? It's like, it's obvious that there's something going on here. So if you were 6, 7, 8, even before you were, you know, molested and abused, there was possibly sexual energy, the elephant in the room that you were feeling. And did you at that age, have your dad sit down and have a really healthy, wholesome, enlightening conversation about your sexuality? I love adding in all the words that always. You guys can't see them. They're laughing because the more you add in those words, the more people laugh because they are like, we. I'll let you answer, but did your parents, your father specifically, sit you down to have any sort of conversations that felt really edifying?

Dave (23:53)

Never.

Brandon (23:54)

Never, Right. The answer is, sadly, always, almost never. So potentially, this negative sexual energy is coming into the home. No one, your parents are not sitting down out of this conversation. Why aren't they sitting down? Because they most likely have not cleared and cleaned that within their own souls. How can they walk you through what they haven't walked through themselves? So then you're left feeling that energy in the home. You have no idea if that's good or bad because no one sat you down to talk to you. You're an innocent soul. You don't know. You're six years old. Like your brain is not even slightly close to fully developed. And then. So then we tackle on which again, do you know if your dad struggled. I'll just ask. Do you know if your dad struggled with any pornography addiction? Did he have affairs, that kind of a thing?

Dave (24:44)

Yes.

Brandon (24:45)

Okay.

Dave (24:45)

He's one of my earliest exposures was in a movie that he put on. It wasn't a pornographic movie, but there was nudity in it and nothing was said. And that is what ended. My parents marriage was an affair.

Brandon (24:55)

Okay. Okay. I was sensing that even just through the conversation. So I just wanted to confirm it to confirm my thesis. So what's happening here is that's the energy your dad's bringing into the home. So you're now from a very little age, actually feeling. I'm really, really glad that you yourself identified and said that you've always felt like there was a defect. Right. Because I had written down one of the first things you said was you used the phrase two times, character defect. And I wrote it down because I wanted to note it, to circle back to it, because I love paying attention to people's language because it reveals a lot about the heart. We can't. We want to hide a lot and we can't. It comes out through our words. And I think that this is really, really key here. And then I also wanted to note that you had said that it seems like it's a recent realization and maybe even bringing to Katie the incident with the abuse. Is that right? Like your. Your body has recently allowed you to see that memory again. Is that accurate?

Dave (25:56)

Yeah. Yeah. It's something that I've every once in a while would pop up, but. Yeah, I would just squish it back down. But this most recent one, which was probably a couple of years ago now. Yeah, I actually put words to it to somebody else for the very first time ever.

Brandon (26:13)

So it's just recently that you begin to link those things. So as I'm hearing your story, I'm piecing it together like a puzzle in my own head. There's a lot more puzzle pieces you'll be invited by your own soul to fill in, even after this call ends. And that's your dad's bringing in this section. And this is no shame to your father. This is. We always like to say we look at our childhood with honesty and honor so we can honor your family of origin while still being radically honest, because that's where your healing is. And so we're looking at it honestly where your dad, maybe even your mom is bringing in this somewhat dark sexual energy, right? Because this energy, like Brandon saying where we're, we're giving away our sexual energy and it's not being reciprocated is making your dad lose all of his power, right? So you're living in a sexually powerless home with some sexually dark energy. Now you're feeling that as a six year old and almost putting that onto yourself, which is what children will do. That's why they say children actually that were abused will automatically feel like they did something wrong because there's an inbuilt loyalty to the, to the people that we love, to people that are older than us. So automatically you're already receiving that narrative from a really young child of this means something is wrong with me to my core. And so how old are you, Dave?

Dave (27:37)

46.

Brandon (27:38)

46, great. This makes it really simple math for me. So for 40 years now you've actually believed that there's something wrong with you. Four decades of believing you have a character defect is a really long time. And you probably know this. And I love just saying simple things out loud. But if you believe something's wrong with you, then it's really easy to continue doing wrong things, right? If you actually believe the truth about yourself. All of those wrong things. I use air quotes because I. It's just like these, that's the perception of how you view things. All of these actions that are counterfeit actions, they lose all of their power source when you understand how valuable you are to your core. And so for 16 years you've tried. I'm not. There's nothing against the 12 step framework. I think that's incredible. Keep doing it. And for 16 years you tried to put a lot of band aids on things, right? You've tried a lot of tools, tried a lot of this and that. And it's like this is inner core work. That is not a tool. It's all of what we teach is looking, it's looking at your sexual story. So it sounds like you were, you had that incident at 8. And then walk me through the next couple of incidences that you remember being exposed. And then walk us through when you remember, when you can remember feeling like your addiction as we call it, start, started. And I, when I'm, when I say addiction, I mean when you trained yourself to compulsively always look at porn or whatever it may be, was.

Dave (29:17)

Yeah, I mean this, this could get real. My first memories of exposure one like very negative. They were very negative. And to circle back too to my, my abuse there. I don't remember feeling any pleasure in that. Yeah, it was, it was just awful all the way, all the way around. I did not enjoy it whatsoever. There was no, like, oh, maybe was it good, was it bad? And it was all bad. And then my first exposure to pornography was a friend of mine. We just ended up at his uncle's house. For some reason it was just him and I were waiting for my parents to pick us up and he just grabbed this VHS tape, put it in and it was just hardcore pornography, like right from the get go. And I couldn't understand what was happening, but I just felt this sense of dread come over me. And for years after that, every time I would think about that incident, the same dread would just come over me. Just darkness would come over my whole body and I would just try and forget about it. Similar to the, the molestation. And then again there was that one scene in the movie that my dad had put on. It was just him and I, and there's just one scene with nudity in it. And I just sort of felt that same feeling come over me. Like this is weird and wrong and nothing was said. We just kept watching the movie and never addressed it. It just was. It sat so wrong with me and it was just very awkward and weird. And then there's. In my memory, there seems to be a gap between when sexual things caused me dread and maybe it was just puberty, I don't know. But when they started to turn, good feeling and desirous things I wanted. I had bad influences as friends. You know, we would always look for that kind of thing and see if we could find pornographic materials and go to the store and try and buy some or whatever, that kind of thing. And I think it was. I always wanted it from that point on.

Brandon (31:24)

Walk me through the ages, a little bit here of the, the.

Dave (31:28)

The uncle, 12 to 14 sort of puberty age for me that it turned, turned that corner into dread. I mean, still dread with it, but to actually enjoying it. So it was. I think I was probably 13 or 14 when I. When I discovered masturbation is when that cemented it. That was just like, that was it. It was my escape for everything. And on any kind of negative emotion in the household, anything in my personal life going on, it was just like I had that place I could go to, like you said earlier, to soothe my emotions, to comfort myself, whatever it was, to get out of my family's kind of tumultuous emotional environment. I could, I could run there and escape.

Caitlin (32:17)

I wanted to switch to Katie for just a second. So put a. Remember where we're at here, Katie, as we're talking through this, I can tell you're feeling a lot. I wanted to just pause and I wanted to acknowledge one thing. Then I wanted to ask you a couple questions. What is it like hearing Dave talk about this again? Because it sounds like you've talked about this stuff. This isn't new subject matter. It kind of feels like we're going through the merry go round. What are you. What is your soul crying out for right now? And then, Dave, as Katie talks right now, I want you to. Actually, there's. So you might already feel the dread drop onto your body right now as Katie speaks to what her heart cry is. Remove the feeling of shame, of, I'm so bad I did this to her. You will not help her heal from that place. I want you to say. I want you to basically posture yourself here as like, I'm curious to know what the cry of Katie's heart is and just kind of allow yourself to feel like. I've been saying this a lot recently, but picture that you are the only person on the planet that can be the healing agent Katie needs. And you just found out you got the call and I can be that healing person. And now your job to do that is to heal or is to listen and engage with curiosity. So I'm not gonna have you, like, ask her a bunch of questions right now, but more just that's your heart posture. Shame isn't going to help you do that. That curious desire of understanding where she's at, having gone through this roller coaster. So, Katie, what's the cry of your heart right now?

Katie (33:44)

I like. It's so convoluted when we talk about the pornography. I think it is transcended for so many years that that doesn't even feel like where the hurt is for me anymore. It's just like when the shame spiral happens and I often feel like the finger gets pointed at me of, like, well, if I was more inviting for him to share or if my pain wasn't so big, then maybe he'd be able to care more. And there's a lot of resentment and a lot of frustration, and it's confusing as the person that's like, well, I didn't actually choose this as my story. I'm just having to walk it. And I think, like, the hardest part for me right now is just feeling the weight of all the shame and the lies and the deception and just having this, like, I have this, like, innate desire to Just like, can we just put it all on the table? Because this like trickle effect of it just like continually hitting me and then I'm having to like heal on my own what it feels like. And I've just, I don't feel think I've ever gotten the truth about anything about his accountability, like, especially accountability. I think that's like the hardest part for me is just what is that.

Caitlin (35:04)

Specifically or what do you mean by the accountability?

Katie (35:06)

Well, just taking responsibility for his actions. When it does happen, that oftentimes the shame gets so big that it becomes, it moves past the stage of talking about what happened and it just makes a mess of everything. So then it just makes the marriage feel like the problem. And. Yeah, how I don't listen is the problem or it just culminates into something so much bigger that we can't even tackle the actual problem.

Brandon (35:35)

Yes.

Caitlin (35:36)

So basically the shame spiral of Dave feeling. We'll just, I'll just say it bluntly. Kind of Dave feeling sorry for himself. He doesn't actually have strength.

Brandon (35:45)

He doesn't have self loathing.

Caitlin (35:47)

Self loathing. Then Katie's like, wait a second, I'm supposed to. And where. How are we not able to focus on what I'm feeling from this? And now we're fighting and we're not even talking about what happened. You also said that it felt like there's still kind of the lying and deception piece. Does it feel like you haven't gotten the full picture yet of what, what's transpired before and during your relationship? Is that an element of it?

Katie (36:11)

Well, I know it now. Like as of a few months ago, he did say, and he said he wasn't even aware of it. But there has been stuff that has been withheld that we're working towards discussing. But even in day to day stuff, there's still like just partial honesty. And I know that there's stuff being withheld from me. Like I can see it and I point it out and he's just, it's just like the brutal honesty part is not there. And I'm a very trustworthy person and I think that's maybe why I have stayed in it for so long. Because I, I see the good in him and I see his heart and I see what he wants and I see him fighting, but it's just like I've been devastated by just feeling like I can trust again only to find out that we never actually got to the bottom of it.

Brandon (36:58)

Yeah, exactly.

Caitlin (36:59)

One last clarifying question. And then Katie, did you say so you Said Dave told you there are things he wants to disclose to you that he has not yet. Is that what you said? So we've got. There's like.

Brandon (37:11)

So you know, there's stuff there. You just don't know all of it. And, Dave, is that because you don't feel like you know all of it, or you just haven't been ready to share all of it?

Dave (37:20)

Probably the latter. I. We haven't been through, like, a formal disclosure process. Like, so it's been what kind of. Again, like sort of addiction terms and recovery terms. It's like a staggered disclosure, and it's more discovery on her part rather than disclosure on my part. So she'll find something.

Brandon (37:38)

Gotcha.

Dave (37:39)

And I'll be. Yeah, I'm. I've just recently discovered how fun, how dishonest I am. I just. I lie about everything. I'm just covering up and covering up and covering up. And I'll. It's just a childhood thing I did to try and save myself from pain was to lie and.

Caitlin (37:53)

Yeah.

Katie (37:53)

Yep.

Dave (37:54)

Just hitting myself, hitting me. How dishonest I've been. And Katie sort of alluded to it as well. It's maybe less about the pornography and more about just my lack of honesty and.

Caitlin (38:06)

Yeah. Dave, do you want to see your own story and actions? Like, sit with it for a sec. Do you want to see it? Because you'll have to see it first before you can disclose it to Katie. Are you prepared to see your own life with clarity?

Dave (38:27)

I think I am. I mean, that's what I'm striving for, like, with this. This step study I'm going through in my recovery group. Like, right. Even right now, we're going through the spiritual inventory. And it is. Like, I did one a couple years ago, and I'm kind of going through it again right now. And it. I. That's my goal. That's what I'm trying to do, is I'm trying to see it all with clarity.

Caitlin (38:49)

Yeah. I'm more. More of, like. So, like. Because there are things you can't see right now.

Dave (38:55)

Yeah.

Caitlin (38:57)

So what I would say is this is like, a very common theme. This is not performance. So it's not like I think I can do this or I think I want to. It's more of, like, do you want. Do you want to be, like, brutally awakened to everything you've ever done? And you don't have to. I don't need you to even have the answer to how we'll give that. I just want to know if you actually Want to see everything, because per scribe, it will allow you to see everything. But it's scary because you'll see it. So. So I just want to know, like, if there's this switch on the wall and you could turn it on and see everything you've ever done, do you want to see it?

Dave (39:32)

I'm terrified.

Caitlin (39:34)

Good.

Brandon (39:36)

That's an honest answer.

Caitlin (39:37)

Okay, I like that. Okay.

Dave (39:43)

Yeah.

Brandon (39:43)

Yes.

Katie (39:44)

And I'm terrified. My side, it's like, I think just after everything and being the encourager and sitting in and trusting again, I think I have just hit that point of, like, it's either that happens, or I can't keep doing the marrow round because I'm exhausted.

Brandon (40:00)

Exactly. Because also, I always like to say this. It's like, it's either that or there's no intimacy. Because intimacy, you guys have heard this because you listen to the podcast. Is into me, you see, right? And so Katie can't see into you right now. You're actually trying not to even see into yourself. And so this is why we always talk about, like, with denial, you lied first to yourself. So that's why you have to want to see it yourself, because she's going to keep catching you. You know that you've done 16 years of this, right? This is not very much fun, is it? It's not. People always like, oh, it's so extreme. What you recommend that you. We share everything with each other, and it's like, can you guys say that? Does 16 years of what you're going through feel pretty extreme?

Katie (40:44)

Feels insane.

Brandon (40:45)

It feels insane, right? And it's probably going to end in divorce if it doesn't get, like, like, cleaned up. Right? That's where it is. And so is it. Actually. I love bringing it back to the practicals, to reality. Is it actually that extreme to suggest that if you wanted to see it clearly, to bring it all I like is. Kitty, you said put it all on the table if you wanted to see it clearly and put it all on the table. I love that visual. Is it extreme to suggest that then on the other side of that, you genuinely love each other, have true intimacy into me? You see what? You wake up every day in love, satisfied, excited to see each other without any of the shadows or the pain or the darkness. It's like when the more I talk about it, the less extreme this route gets. Right? The reason why it sounds extreme is because that's our denial structure in our head trying to go, alert, alert, alert. Freedom's over there. Yet the path to it is that Terrifying forest of all the truth that I've tried to hide and run from. So to get to that other side of freedom, you actually have to walk through the terrifying forest. Right now people are like, caitlyn, you're insane. How could you recommend that they walk through the terrifying forest to get to the freedom? It's like the other route over here is live in a perpetual state of hell where you constantly don't like each other, you don't like yourself, you don't like your life and there's no goodness on the other side. Right. I can't. There's nothing you're going. There's nothing you're going through and out of where this one, it's terrifying yet enlightening, yet leads to freedom and wholeness and beauty. It's like, it is so clear and evident which path makes true logical sense and emotional clarity and sense is even brought through that. And I think here, I think that the key points here, if I'm going to just lay it out on a practical and. And then I'm always good at bringing it in practical and then Brandon's going to have a lot of other really great things to say is your healing journey is simple and terrifying. Because what it's going to require is that, Dave, you take a look at your life with honesty. And I want you to start back at six because that's actually when you remember having sexual feelings in your body. I want you to go all the way back there and you're going to recount everything you might even be thinking right now. And some of you listening like, oh, gosh, I'm not going to be able to remember everything. I guarantee you you can. I guarantee you. Caitlin, how do you know? I watched Brandon do it. I watched him remember what most people would classify as the most insignificant memories of a time he thought someone was kind of cute at the, at the coffee shop and this looked at her for a millisecond. He might have. He might have not even really objectified or just thought she was pretty and emotionally felt something for a second. I, I watched him recall that five years later to get that out and clear it out and cleanse it out. Everything that you've experienced is a real physical energy and memory stored inside your body. It can be accessed if you want it to be accessed. You are the only one who holds the keys to your memories. Katie can sit there and ask a bunch of questions to try to spark a bunch of memories and that'll drain the tank super, super fast. If you both mutually Want to sign up for that? You can try that to spark the memory. And at the same time, I know, because I've seen it happen, that you can unlock all of what's been there. It's already probably unlocked. It's probably spinning all right here. And what we come face to face to with this is why it was season one, episode one of the podcast is our denial structure in Shame. People normally have one. I like to say they have, like, one teddy bear buddy of the denial structure. That's their favorite. Shame is your favorite. And that's strong language. Shame is what you've told yourself and trained yourself to turn to. That's your form of denial. So it's like, here's this thing that I've done, and so I'm going to shove it in the closet door and label it behind shame of feeling gross or bad or a character defect or whatever it is. So that memory is going to get shoved back there and it's not going to be allowed to come into the forefront of my mind, and it's definitely not going to be allowed to come be spoken out as truth. Right? So for you, you're going to be doing daily embodiment to be able to be into your body and go, whoa, I thought that there was something wrong with me. I thought that I had a character defect. I thought that I was supposed to carry the shame and this guilt. I'm unlocking that door right now. I'm opening up all the memories hidden behind that narrative, and I'm bringing them all out. And I want to say, too, that I don't actually believe in a therapeutic disclosure. We were recommended that we did not do that. I know that the therapeutic disclosure and. And this might come across as rather extreme to some people or intense. And if you. If people feel like they want to do that, totally do that. That's not going to be the cure and end all of your marriage and your relationship. If you want to add that in, go ahead. And what I. What I'm about to walk you through is an actual, authentic therapeutic disclosure. Normally, the therapeutic disclosure is, Dave, try to remember all of what you can, which is probably going to be the little bit you just shared with us. And then we'll just say, like, oh, 16 years of pornography. And it's like we just do this big old cover. You know, it's like. And lots of objectifying women. It's just like, hopefully, if I can just give you a big old basket of 16 years of what I did and not actually have to peek through it. Which one sounds easier, right? Just saying I looked at pornography for 16 years sounds pretty, pretty simple right? Now if I tell you, go to that basket of 16 years of pornography and pull it all out and tell me about all of it. I want to know the type of pornography you looked at. I want to know when you looked at pornography. I want to know what you were feeling. It's like, whoa, that's detailed, right? So the therapeutic disclosure where you just give a general statement of what you've done and try to be as detailed as possible. I'm doing air quotes because you're not really going to try very hard because your denial structure is going to protect you. And then we hook you up to the lie detector test and we go, oh, did you get everything? It's like, yeah, you can, you can if you lie to yourself so well, you can lie your way through anything, including a lie detector test. So this is way beyond a therapeutic disclosure and a lie detector test. This is you coming at home to yourself and saying, I want to know the truth and I want to bring this to Katie. And I say this every time and I'll always say it. This isn't you going to your church. This isn't you going to your 12 step program. This isn't you going to your small group and saying, here's all my dirty laundry and I'm going to air it out for you. No, this is you going to the one that you united your soul with, that you have become physically one with and saying, this is me and I want intimacy. You don't need intimacy with your 12 step small group. Now if you want accountability, go ahead and have that. I'm talking about creating intimacy into me. You see, with the one on your wedding day, you decided to unify your soul too. So when I say you're sharing everything out loud and it's only to Katie and every if, if anyone else, that's completely up to you. But freedom is sharing everything out loud with Katie from the moment you were six and you have those memories to the current day moment at 46. And that is your freedom to never looking and struggling with pornography again. It's so simple. Yet also our brains will try to trick us whenever it's simple tries to trick us into being like, that's too simple. I need something scarier, I need something harder. That's just the denial structure protecting you. Because if you believe it's too simple, guess what? You won't even try it. And I always like to say, what do you have to lose. What do you have to lose by telling her everything? Nothing. Right. You've tried 16 years of everything else and you're about to lose your marriage. What do you have to lose by being fully seen and known for the first time? I'm going to guess for the first time for you, knowing your story a little bit now, this will probably be the first time ever in your entire life you will be fully seen and fully known. It is the greatest gift you will offer your own soul and your marriage. What do you have to lose, Dave?

Caitlin (49:31)

I normally. I've been sitting with this for like 5 minutes just listening to me talk. It's so good. I normally wouldn't ask this so pointedly, but it was coming to the surface. Are there any physical or emotional affairs that you have not disclosed to Katie?

Dave (49:46)

No, I haven't had any physical affairs.

Caitlin (49:49)

And the emotional affair component? What, What. What's there?

Dave (49:54)

I haven't had any. Like, anything. Like, it's been intermittent, I guess. There was one time when several years ago, when Katie and I were having a rough time, very rough time. I. I used. Let me just put it this way. I used to be friends with one of my exes.

Caitlin (50:11)

Okay.

Dave (50:12)

And ever since we broke up, we kind of just stayed friends. And I did kind of vent to her about some frustrations and that I was. Said some things I shouldn't have said about our marriage. And it wasn't. I can. I can honestly say it wasn't with the intent to connect with her. Could have been a guy, could have just.

Caitlin (50:32)

She.

Dave (50:33)

She asked me about. She just texted me, hey, how's it going? At that moment? And it came out, and Katie is the one that made me realize that that was actually an emotional affair because I was like. I had. I didn't want that. It's not like I was interested in her or wanted to be emotionally close in an intimate way with her, I guess in a positive, intimate way. But I did do that.

Caitlin (50:57)

And I want you to practice, Dave, next time. And going forward, you sounded. I don't even know how this happened, but you almost sounded like the victim in that situation. Okay, like your ex girlfriend texted you. How dare she? And Katie had to identify that this wasn't a good thing. You did.

Dave (51:16)

I am very passive, I'll admit that.

Caitlin (51:19)

Well, no, you're not passive.

Brandon (51:20)

It's not passivity. It's the. It's the embod. You've embodied a narrative that you are. You've. You've adopted that belief system that you are a victim, which you actually were a victim of abuse. Right. And you're now no longer a victim. And that's a great point of like, it's possible that, you know, the way that you're seeing it, which sounds like even is Katie's whole thing is like somehow it gets spun to almost as if you didn't set out for this to happen.

Dave (51:52)

Yeah.

Caitlin (51:53)

Let me give you, like, how. Go ahead.

Dave (51:56)

Sorry. I. I really appreciate you bringing that up because I think that's what we've been missing. I think that's why Katie reached out to you is we see people, we're just floundering around in the dark. And I say things like that, and I don't have it reflected back to me. Like, hey, wait, that just sounded like you're making yourself a victim. Like, I don't see it. I'm completely blind to it. And I think that's just been something we've been missing, is that I talk to you guys and you. You see it because you're objective. And as much as it sucks to hear that, it's like, I need to know that. Right.

Caitlin (52:30)

So two. Two things. So how long ago was that?

Dave (52:33)

That was three. Three years ago, probably three years ago.

Caitlin (52:36)

And Katie, this is not new. I assume this isn't news to you right now because you said you. You would. You were aware of this situation. Okay.

Katie (52:43)

Found it. I got that good old discernment gene that just keeps growing.

Caitlin (52:49)

So, Dave, if I told you I was texting one of my ex girlfriends that's been a friend over the years, what would you think? Do. Would you, as a. As a man to another man, do you think that that is an activity you would encourage me to do?

Dave (53:01)

I wouldn't.

Caitlin (53:02)

Okay, that's. That's great. And if you. You. You don't even really know me, so you. I would hope you want even better for yourself. Okay. And this isn't about getting caught. It's not about being bad. Now, when I want you to think about. So when I. A shift that will take place and Katie will see it and you will see it, when you begin to talk about your past, it will not be to sugarcoat it or make it less ugly.

Katie (53:24)

Yep.

Caitlin (53:25)

If I were to ask you, let's just say two months from now, Dave, have you had any emotional affairs? Now, there could be stuff that comes out and you guys exploring this that you haven't told Katie.

Brandon (53:35)

There is stuff.

Caitlin (53:35)

There is stuff.

Brandon (53:36)

Said that out loud.

Caitlin (53:37)

You said, like, there is stuff. What needs to happen is for you to be able to answer that. Question. Say, yes, I have. Three years ago, I was texting my ex girlfriend that I'd stayed in touch with for 13 years of my marriage, and I complained to her about my wife, period.

Brandon (53:57)

Noticeably different, you see?

Caitlin (53:58)

And it's like, I don't even need. You don't even need to, like. What I want you to think about is because. Shame. You have to explain yourself, and I want you to separate from what you've done, from who you are.

Dave (54:10)

Yeah, that's the.

Caitlin (54:11)

You've done some dumb. Sorry. For anybody listening. Well, you shouldn't be listening to this podcast with kids. If you're listening, you have poor judgment. If you're listening, your kids will benefit. Please don't listen. With your kids, you've done some stuff that is dumb, but you are not dumb. So when you talk, I want you to. Actually, you will benefit so much from. I want you to pretend like anytime Katie asks you a question, anytime you're looking at the stuff, put a. Put a magnifying glass on it. Make it big, hairy, and ugly. Like, make it so ugly that you're like, oh, my gosh. Like, this was like this heiny. What's heinous how you say that word? This horrific thing I did. The bigger you can make it, the less impact it will have on you in the sense of, like, being able to own it. Because if. If you essentially, when you try to protect or sugarcoat things, you're keeping that real estate in your mind protected. You're saying, this is a part of me. There's still a sting. Like, this is who I am. Instead of saying, oh, my gosh, yeah, I. I did all sorts of crazy stuff I did. I trashed my marriage. I put my wife through hell. Let me tell you about it. That's why some people, like, think my account is like this public, public shaming thing that my wife forced me to start. Caitlin's like, we'll share our story 10 years from now. I was like, I'm. I just want to start sharing. I want to. I feel empowered to do that. Caitlin's not forcing me to. To share my story. It's my story and I. Our story, and I feel empowered to share it. That allows you to see clearly. That allows Katie to be like, my voice matters. My heart matters. So what I want you to do is even if there's things that you have not shared yet, there is things.

Katie (55:48)

You haven't shared yet.

Caitlin (55:49)

Yes. Sometimes I put it that way. I put it that way more so because, like, I remember what it felt like to Be blind to myself. And it would. I would it. Terrifying is a good word because I. When Caitlin would ask me, is there anything else? I couldn't see anything else, but I knew there was still more there, and so I couldn't remember. Are you guys a part of our community app or any of our programs? I'm not.

Dave (56:13)

I've never listened to the podcast.

Caitlin (56:15)

We'll email you after this to get you access to a couple things. So we're going to give you. This is a thank you for being on the podcast, a systematic program that you can walk through to actually go through your history. So we won't dive into that right now, but know that if you commit to saying yes to seeing the unseen, you will see it, because what's happening right now is your subconscious mind is not visible to your. To your conscious mind.

Katie (56:37)

Exactly.

Caitlin (56:37)

And like you said, you've had those experiences where you've had moments of clarity, whether that was at a men's group, maybe at a church service, maybe after hours of Katie asking those stinky questions. And finally you have a moment of clarity and then you close back up. What we're going to give you the system to do, which is inside of our app, is opening it up and leaving it open with the purpose of saying, I'm going to see all of this. And we're going to also show you how to rewire it so it's not just seeing it to see it. And what do we do now? You'll have the full plan. What this does is when you. When you. When you open it up, because it's actually very hard in a heated conversation to want to try to open it up. Instead, if you just set your posture of like, hey, I'm going to rip open my subconscious mind. I'm going to remember every sexualized memory, thought, experience, lie. I just want to see it, to see it. And it's like, basically not an option that you show up to your evening conversation and have nothing to share. So your. Your art. And what will happen is you'll start building this momentum where you're like, you're no longer working against your mind, your mind saying, you said you wanted to see it, and you're gonna have so much to remember that you're just like, oh, wow, this was a lot. And what you'll see is Katie will be shocked by some of the things you share, but she's not really shocked that you've. You got some sexual brokenness. She's just kind of like, can we. Can we actually look at It. And can we actually heal? She's not shocked. She's shocked that you wanted to drag her outside of the car for this long. And you're. You're ready. You're both ready. And so what. What I'm saying is I don't want you to be proud of what you've done, but I want you to be proud of who you are. And you do. You guys have kids?

Katie (58:11)

Yeah, three.

Caitlin (58:12)

Three kids. You have three kids, you've been married for 16 years. And there's. There's two ways to look at your story. And I've said this to men that are in their 80s. Why did it take so long? I've caused all this pain. Sure. What better time? Here's the other option. What better time, Dave, Katie, for you to say, you know what? I haven't enjoyed the trajectory I've been on. I've got three kids. I have a lovely wife. I've got a purpose. I've got a beautiful community around me. I'm ready to live up to my full potential and be a healing agent in my marriage. There's no shame to that. And so then what you get to do is you look at all of the ugly, because the ugly is not you. You say, wow, I want to. Because if you're saying, I'm. I'm changing gears, I'm changing trajectories, what better time than now, than anything that comes to mind is, wow, that was holding me back. That was keeping me stuck. That was causing me shame. Everything comes out so that you can elevate yourself and become who you truly are and begin loving Katie from an authentic, clean place. There's no shame in that. So I want you to sit with that. I want you to. And we'll. We'll send you the tools, but I think that that is. That is paramount right now.

Dave (59:20)

I could feel the tension leaving my body just hearing you say that. So.

Caitlin (59:24)

Because you've had to live a life where you don't like seeing your life, and the reason you're going back to porn is because you're trying to pretend that you never went to porn. And now it's saying, okay, little buddy, like, we can go back there. If you want to feel the similar. The familiar feelings, you're not wanting to feel the familiar feelings. You're needing to feel reality. And reality feels scary, but you're in it right now. Katie's feeling. It's because she's not in the addiction. She's just feeling it. She's just like, yeah, I've Been feeling. It must feel like crap. Let's. Let's find a new feeling. So a couple things to be aware of on this process. What's going to happen is you will. I'll give you some embodiment exercises to do too. You're going to thaw out emotionally. You're going to feel again. You're going to feel with more clarity, with more intensity, and that's okay. You actually were designed to live that way. It will bring you into a place of freedom that, that you've never. That like, wasn't previously available. Also, you're going to begin to become aware of some of the contradictory things that you hear from other places. So the support groups you're a part of, maybe your spiritual community, maybe counselors, maybe friends. So I want you just to be very intentional about what influence you choose to give certain priority on your healing journey. Anything that as you're on this, like, picture, you're like a rocket ship going on this trajectory. If there's things that are putting you back out of orbit, headed back down, don't. Just don't accept them, just toss them out. And that's going to serve you really well is limiting the voices that you have on that healing process.

Brandon (60:56)

I think. One of my final thoughts, and we'll make sure if you guys have any final questions here, One of my final thoughts is that, Dave, I want to remind you that as much as you're doing this for the. For the end goal of your marriage, being whole and complete and experiencing intimacy and connection, you're actually doing this for yourself. And this is for everyone that's listening. And I want to really speak directly to you. This is you for the first time ever, coming alive because You've been living 46 years almost as a ghost within your own body, not fully alive, not vibrant, not here. And so you looking at your story is yes, so you can bring it to the table, be seen and known and experience intimacy in your union. But it's first because you've actually been running from yourself for 40 years. And everything you've been running from provide is going to provide you the clarity and the healing that you need to experience life again, maybe for the very, very first time to experience vitality and vibrancy and abundance. All of these emotions and sensations are most likely relatively unfamiliar for you as you explore your entire story. You're going to come home to yourself and come alive. The fruit of that is your marriage coming alive. The greater fruit of that is your three children's lives. All the sudden are bursting forth with abundance and beauty and bliss. That wasn't a gift that was offered to you. You didn't have that gift. And yet you get to take your life with your power and say, whoa, I'm severing that story from continuing on. And I'm handing my children the keys to a life of abundance and beauty and bliss. And you can't do that if you don't have that. You can't offer them what you don't embody. So you're first embodying this for yourself, for your marriage, for your children, for their children and their children and their children. And on this goes. This is so beautiful. And it's. It's so simple. It's so, so, so, so simple. People spend 16 years, sometimes 40 years trying to complicate it. It's so simple. And I like to say over and over again, and the reason why I created Correct Brandon is because when you've lived a life of 40 years of lying, you'll take any little thing you can to tuck into your pocket. The reason why I want to keep bringing up is because those things, you know, you haven't shared right now, you're gonna put this up and you're gonna share those right now. Like, I'm gonna call you out and tell you that. And anyone that's listening, if you have something in your mind right now you haven't shared, there's no good time. There's no convenient time. There's no time. It feels good and right and, like, so super exciting in your body to share something. There's no. It's like literally ripping the band aid off. You have to just do it. Like, you're putting up the phone and you're getting it all out. And, like, Brandon even walked you through. It's not. This isn't a therapeutic disclosure of here's everything I know, and this is it. End of story. Close the door. It's. Here's what I know right now. Listen to my language here. It's so different. Here's what I know right now. Also, I know there's way more. And I'm committed 100% to showing you with my actions that I'm ready to get this all out. How do I show you with my actions that I'm ready to get this all out? Every single night when the kids are put to bed, I'm coming to you with my journal that has all the things I've been remembering. All of the movies I've seen, the porn I've been exposed to, the Music videos, the things on social media, the women I've objectified, the emotional affairs I've had, everything I've been keeping and hiding from you, it's in this journal. And every night I'm going to sit with you and we're going to walk through it because there's nothing hidden. If there's anything hidden. There's no intimacy. You can't see into somebody. That's like murky water. If there's something hidden, it's murky water. You can't see into it. Your healing for yourself in your marriage is as simple as simple. You can make it as difficult as you want, yet you can also make it as simple as you want as it really is. It's as simple as you exploring your story with honesty and sharing that truth with your spouse. I don't even know how it has become so controversial in churches, marriage counselors, podcasts, groups. How has it become controversial to be honest with your spouse? I have no idea. It is beyond me. I'm bewildered. I'll be bewildered for forever. How can people comment on our videos and say that this makes no sense and that we are horrible humans and blah, blah, blah, blah. All I'm promoting and recommending is radical honesty with the one you've unified your soul with. If I presented that as plain and simple, as radical honesty with the one you've unified your soul with, nobody would disagree with me. Now, when I call it something different, share your entire life story and all your sexual experiences. People want to throw flames and darts, right? That's radical honesty with the one you've unified your soul with. And I can guarantee you that it will result in freedom and healing for your marriage. I can guarantee you. I can't guarantee if that you keep a couple secrets that you can have that same result. I can't guarantee that. I can almost guarantee you won't, because how can you have intimacy? You can't. I can guarantee that if you trudge through that terrifying forest on the other side, it's so beautiful. I'm not making it up. I don't care about making it up to have some sort of social platform. I told Brandon I don't want to share a story for 10 years because as much as I care about all of you, I don't. This is what I cared about. This is what I wanted. And I can guarantee you that what we experience is so real and true and beautiful and it's so available for you if you choose into being fully honest and transparent to exploring your story and sharing that all out loud.

Caitlin (67:19)

You have had an addiction and you were the one that created it. And so whatever feels like a mystery as you go through this, you'll recognize, yes, I made myself powerless to these things. And it was through a pattern of behavior. And so in the rewiring process, you'll recognize like, wait, this wasn't random. This wasn't a mystery. I'm not a victim. I don't like saying I'm not a victim. I'm not powerless over this realm of sexuality. I just actually tried to use it to numb the pain I was feeling or to make sense of my earliest shameful experiences. The lack of leadership I had from my dad, who ended up cheating on my mom. And then you look at it and you say, that's not the pattern I feel like following anymore. And you look at your, your beautiful wife and you say, this is what we're. This is what I'm following is this intimacy, this safety. Before we wrap up, I just wanted to see Katie or Dave if you had any questions that we could answer before we hop off here.

Dave (68:17)

Honestly, I'm just, I'm thrilled that you are making that, that available to us. What you said, that kind of the step by step sort of thing, that program that you're, that you laid out like, that's. I think part of the reason I've been so afraid, other than just general terror of opening up my life and everything that's happened and everything I've done is not having guidance and not knowing which direction to go.

Caitlin (68:44)

Right.

Dave (68:44)

So I appreciate that what you guys are doing and that there's some like, direction given.

Caitlin (68:51)

Yeah, awesome. I wanted to add to that. And for those of you listening, we're not just what we'll propose in this, the tools we'll give you and for anybody listening is not just to not look at porn again. This is for your conscious mind to not have bombarding thoughts of sexual, unwanted sexual fantasies, images, videos. This is freedom from ever having compulsive looking at women's body parts or sexualizing women in your mind. This is freedom when you guys, if you guys are, are currently being intimate or when you resume being physically intimate, for there to be no bombarding memories as you guys go to have sex. This is being on your phone and not feeling like, wow, I'm tired, like, I'm going to go look there's. This is actually going to a place of freedom where there's no more burden. So that this isn't just so you can like tell your 12 step group that you got five years from no hardcore porn and you still have to think about your ex girlfriends when you're having sex with Katie. Like, this is like we're cleaning all of it out so that maybe for the first time, for the first time, you and Katie are like, she can feel it. You can feel it. There's nobody else. There's no debris. And you are confident in who you are. She can feel it and it's safe. And so that's why you're doing this. It's not to just get a little better and not lose your marriage. It's like we're actually going to start the marriage on a clean slate with a clean heart, clean emotions, and that feels really good. I didn't know that that was possible. I didn't know how far away that, like, I thought I was doing the best I could. I wasn't even alive. I was dead. And I wouldn't trade this for anything like Katie said. And sorry, Kate. Caitlin. I call her Katie. It's worth it. It's worth it a thousand percent. And when it becomes. I can already feel Dave, listen, let this sink in. Katie is very for you. I can see this. She's been by her side. Lock arms with her and look at the mess of whatever there is hidden in your subconscious mind. Whatever it is. Like, just look at it and say, here it is. Here's how it impacted me. Here's how I chose to engage it. Here's how I lied to you. Bing, bing, bing. And here's the new man I'm becoming. Well, that's. And you just don't stop until all the debris is cleared out. And then what are you left with? A relationship that you enjoy and it's safe and it feels amazing. So that's what you guys are pursuing. We'll send you guys an email. I'm gonna just full of gratitude that you guys chose to share your story with us. And for those of you listening that were not aware, we do have our Grounded Union couples app. You maybe have heard us reference some of the grounded intimacy programs and our seven step program. If you're interested in getting direct support for your marriage today, you can click the link in the show notes to learn more about the app. We do live coaching where Caitlin does a call, I do a call. We answer questions. There's support there if you get stuck. And it will be all of our frameworks for helping you rebuild trust and go to the root of where you need to heal. It's right below here in the show notes. We'd love to have you inside. And those of you listening to the Grounded Union podcast, thank you so much for joining us on this episode. We will see you guys next week with another brave couple that we get to journey with. Thank you so much for listening. If you can subscribe and leave a review of the show if you found value in today's conversation.

Dave (72:28)

Sam.