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The Grounded Union Podcast
Shaking My Husband for Connection: A Man’s Journey of Waking Up Emotionally
01:00:57
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- [00:00]
A
He just couldn't understand that I loved 98% of our marriage and that 2% where he was disconnected, where I was, like, you know, at times screaming when that didn't work, at times silent, at times working on myself, trying just whatever I could to get that attention and that connection. I think those were long years.
- [00:20]
B
We wanna welcome you guys to season three of the Grounded Union podcast. We are here with Jeff and Corinne. They are gonna be sharing their story with us. We're gonna be sharing our encouragement, our insights on what we're hearing from their story. Glean anything from this episode. Be sure to subscribe and leave a review so that we can also, so you don't miss next week's episode where we talk with another couple. Jeff and Corinne, thank you for hopping on the show. What are you guys? What's top of mind right now? What are you working on in your relationship?
- [00:46]
C
Yeah, I would say thank you, Brandon, Caitlin, for hosting us. I've been a part of the Grounded men's community for about a year, and honestly, within a few weeks, Krin was noticing some major improvement in my ability to understand and feel my emotions. The embodiment emotional response training. Like, it was super helpful for me. So I would say in the last year, we've made quite a few breakthroughs. And me being able to sit in conflict or discussion without getting overly defensive or stonewall, I would say that was my programming, as I'd always take anything she said as critical to me rather than me and her against the problem. So I've really appreciated the insight and being me as a man, learn how to feel things inside my body. I'm very logical. I've been stuck in my head most of my life. And I would say where we're at right now is there's, you know, we've had a really a great year and a lot of growth in the last year. But what we're trying to do is really deepen the connection. And one of the roadblocks I think both Crin and I are coming up against is how do we move through resentment and regret for hurts that happened in the past? And I. I'll just give, like, a big one, and then you guys can maybe help us frame this. So Crin's father passed away about 11 years ago. He had Parkinson's for about 35 years. He was a powerful family man, and it was hard to watch him go through those last five or six years of his life, really losing the ability to communicate and even move independently. When he passed, obviously Kryn was grieving severely for the loss of her father. I was sadly grieving for the loss of a father in law, you know, a good man in my life that really I saw as a mentor. And I didn't show up in the way that she needed. So she needed more love and support. And me at that point being really out of touch with my ability to communicate emotional feelings or even understand what I was feeling. I was grieving along right next to her, but I didn't show up in a steady, grounded way to give her the support, to help her grieve. And so what's happened over the last, you know, since that time, 11 years, is anytime I don't show up in a grounded way, that hurt and resentment that still sits in, you know, the resentment in Corinne and the regret in me comes up pretty openly and is still really tender. And so we're trying to. And we'd love your insight, like, how do we move forward from a decade old hurt and really move on completely?
- [03:33]
A
Yeah, I think we've been married a long time. We've been married for almost 27 years, and I would say always had a really good marriage. When I was trying to, like, shake Jeff into having feelings and like, opening up that part of him, it was so much miscommunication for so many years. He just couldn't understand that I loved 98% of our marriage and that 2% where he was disconnected, where I was like, you know, at times screaming when that didn't work, at times silent, at times working on myself, trying just whatever I could to get that attention and that connection. I think those were long years. I've heard in your guys podcasts, I've heard guys talk about Caitlyn crying herself to sleep and just being like, where do we go from here? And I will say my family's very communicative, very open. We sometimes talk way too much. But Jeff's is not that. So it's like this meshing of two worlds. And when Jeff started the Grounded Man, I think I hounded him with like Instagram DMs, like, look at this, look at this, look at this. And he even said, like, I don't know that I fully resonate with all parts of this. I don't have this issue. I don't have this issue. But there was something within the first two weeks that was like, different. Like, it was just this immediate difference between us. Like our good friends would notice. Like, I just felt it. And it's been so amazing to have that connection, that awakening with us. But I do have like this, these issues for all those years. I mean like me fighting for it. And now that I have it, you think that I could just enjoy it. But it's harder than I thought it would be.
- [05:10]
C
So I'm full of regret. Crin's full of resentment. We love each other very deeply. Yeah. I honestly, I don't have any issues with pornography or sexual brokenness as far as like there's never been infidelity, there's never been pornography use. There's never been even looking outside the marriage in any way. So like that was maybe the disconnect that Karen was saying in the Grounded Men, but I really did resonate with like embodiment masculine in the relationship, understanding polarity. And it's been a game changer for both of us, honestly.
- [05:43]
B
So when you talk about the feelings of resentment, I know you kind of mentioned wanting to move past this decade long ache for connection and then also the lack of support that was offered during the grieving process of your dad's passing. What element of the resentment feels like it's impacting you today? Is it in your communication?
- [06:06]
A
Big discussions, it's like every day to day. Great. We're in a great situation, better than we've ever been. But when we talk with our kids about marriage and we talk about the dynamics of the female and the masculine and I feel like the weight and maybe Caitlin, you can help with this. Like why do I have to be in charge of it? Like, why was it up to me to fight for it for so long? And now that Jeff's like flipped and it really was like a flip and I'm so grateful for it. It feels like I'm just supposed to let everything go and just be happy. And I don't, I don't know the path for that. And I don't know if it of holding on to like those cycles like makes me feel safe or if it makes me feel like I sacrificed for nothing or I don't know what my stuck point is on it. I just know that I don't like when we talk it up that I get so upset and hurt by it all over again because I, in my head I feel like I've moved past.
- [07:03]
C
It, but it still sits in her body somewhere that like any anytime she feels maybe unsafe or maybe I'm not fully steady or present, then that hurt comes back.
- [07:15]
D
Yeah, I hear you in that. I actually, I mean, I think Brandon said this in other episodes. I used to cry all the time even as he was thawing out and getting more in his body and having more emotional capacity. But because to some degree, what you're experiencing is grief, which you've actually experienced grief as well with the loss of your father. And so you know what grief feels like. And I as well, have experienced the loss of my brother. So it's like we understand what grieving, loss of something feels like. And so although this is different than losing someone, like, actually in this physical realm where we can't see them anymore, you're grieving the loss of all of those years, and you're potentially even grieving, like, now that you know what it feels like to be experiencing this last year of like, whoa, he's in his body, he's understanding his emotions. Look at how we're connecting. It's like a grief of like, oh, what if that would have been all those years? What if he would have listened to me? What if we could have, you know, been accepted experiencing that in the day to day to day? And so I remember sitting with that grief. And in the same way that you probably were given tools to work through the grief of the loss of your father, I think some of this is just the natural progression of grief and time. And with that, Jeff, as you're already learning, like, when she. When there's this situation. So let's just take the example of, you know, something's coming up with the father, and there's this, the regret, and then there's the resentment. Or we could call it grief, actually, if we want to call it that, the grief of what was and what you wanted it to be. Then what we teach in the app, and you definitely are aware of these tools, is you're holding space for her, right? And so you're saying, oh, whoa. I'm noticing that there's a lot of really big emotions that you're feeling right now. And it sounds like what I'm picking up on is that there could be a little bit of, like, good, bad, right or wrong. I know you guys said you just got back from. From church, and we grew up in the church as well. We love Jesus. And so this isn't to, like, nitpick from a place of like, oh, I don't believe in God or I don't love Jesus. It's more to bring about an awareness of oftentimes when we grow up in the church, it's very like, this way or this way. Like, it's either all the way wrong or all the way right. And so it's like, oh, because I'm feeling this this bit of resentment and this bit of regret, then that's all the way wrong. So how can we're doing something wrong here? How can we get out of it? And where I like to switch, it is more of like an awareness. Oh, whoa. I still feel a lot right now about this. You still feel a lot about this. That's not right or wrong. That's not good or bad. That just is what it is. And then what do we want to do with these emotions? Which. That's what embodiment is, right, Jeff, that you've been learning is here's this big emotion I'm feeling. What do I want to do with this right now? So if there's a lot of feelings coming up, it's like, okay, maybe Jeff, you're holding space for Corinne. Like, okay, this is bringing up a lot for you. Tell me about what you're feeling. And she might need to cry. She might need to share. She might loop on something she shared. It might be bringing up something from 10 years ago that's still impacting her, right? And it's like, okay, and here's a moment to almost. This is the connection piece, right? Here's the. The moment to connect, to bring your two worlds together, to see each other, to be seen, experience that connection. And it's not because you want to get over it or like, oh, let's just forget about it. It's like, I like the languaging of, let's complete this and move through it. Because, like, see, getting over it to me so symbolizes, like, it still has a lot of power. But I'm just going to try to pretend to look this way and pretend like it doesn't have any power. Where to me, when we embrace it and embody it and then move through it, it's like I've connected with whatever it is. I'm still feeling about this situation, and then I'm. I'm connected with it. I'm not trying to just forget about it or stuff it or any of these things that lead to lack of embodiment. I'm feeling it, embracing it, and then I'm letting it move through me. And so the connection piece is. Is being able to sit and go through what we kind of like to call the. The connection or validation flow, which is where you're going to say, you know, you're going to. What are those three words you use.
- [11:53]
B
To listen to that? Yeah, so what that looks like. And I'm sure, Jeff, you. You've practiced this some, but when Corinne, it's Almost like I like picturing when there's, like, a moment in. In the relationship when you're healing through these things that Keelan's talking about where it's, like, it's coming up to the surface. And I like seeing that as, like, Corinne's teeing you up to, like, hit a home run. Like, she's upset. She's feeling a little, like, uncertain, and she comes to you with it, and you're like, at first, a lot of times as men, we. Or as women, you know, when something emotional happens, we're like deer in the headlights. Like, we don't know what to do. And then you're like, wait, this is the perfect opportunity. And I think the comfort flow of telling Corinne, like, I'm ready to listen, like, to what. What you're sharing, like this, to affirm, like, let's sit down. Let's take a minute. Like, please tell me what. What's on your heart. So the first step is to listen. And then as you're listening, she might even accuse you. She might do some. Yeah, some accusations, some very pointed things, some unclean communication that may happen. And Corinne sounds like she's committed to working on that, like, how she presents herself, too. But you're basically listening to the emotions that she's sharing. So it's like, okay, she shared that she felt really abandoned. She felt really scared in that season. She felt really lonely. And so you listen. And then the second step of that is just to reflect back to her what you heard her sharing, what her feelings were was. I heard that you were feeling really scared. And in that season that when you were crying, I was detached and you didn't feel like you had access to me. So you're basically just helping. Helping her understand that you understand her. So you listen, you reflect back what you heard. Her sharing, going for the emotions, not trying to imitate or, like, repeat verbatim, but from what you heard was the heart of what she was sharing. You share that you reflected back to her, and then you. So that's listen, reflect, and then ask is you basically ask, what else? And sometimes you can also ask, like, did I get that right? But I think a lot of guys, when they say, did I get that right? They're hoping for, like, the, yes, you got it, honey, hug me. It's like, no, it's like, instead of asking if you got it right, you can just say, what else? Because what will happen is her nervous system's like, he can handle me. He can handle me. I'm not too Much for him. He can handle me. And when her nervous system's like that, then when she's feeling that wave of emotion of the grief, then she knows that you're the safe place to come to. She knows you can handle her. You know you can handle her. Nobody really talks about that. It's like you, like we talk about how it makes her feel for you to validate her. But like as a man, it feels really good for your wife to be pissed off and be like, let's talk like. And for you to feel empowered in that process too. So that's why I'd really lean into in those moments. I'm going to change gears a little bit. I do want to talk about sex and sexuality because although you said that that's not a part of your guys story, I'm always like hesitant when somebody starts off with that's not a part of our story. Not because like I think you're like, like I'm not trying to accuse you of being like this liar off the bat. More so because I was like literally when I was a missionary in South America, I led a group of like young adults to like confess all of their sexual brokenness with each other while I was still living in sexual brokenness. So it just takes on different forms sometimes. So I just wanted to ask a few questions to understand your upbringing. Did you have a healthy relationship with your parents and what was, what did they kind of, what was your early childhood experiences when it came to sexuality? Just so I understand, you know, you said this whole, your whole life you've been, you've been, you've been rock solid. So I just wanted to understand did you want both? Let's start with Jeff. Okay. Because so basically here's, I've never met a man who doesn't, who doesn't struggle with sexual, any sexual brokenness, who doesn't have a story of healing. And I'm not saying you need to fabricate your story of healing, but I want to understand where sexual health exudes from in your life.
- [15:45]
C
Okay. Yeah. So yeah, I did grow up in a home. I, I'm one of six children. My mother and father were Christian and we were a Christian family for sure. Both of my parents worked. So I did have quite a few years of pretty lonely times. And as I reflect about it, I spent way too much time alone. I do have a little bit of sexual abuse in my history by a babysitter at the hands of a babysitter. And honestly sounds like Corinne.
- [16:14]
B
Corinne's aware of that. It Sounds like.
- [16:16]
C
Yeah.
- [16:16]
B
One thing I wanted to say off the bat, Jeff, I'm glad I'm. Kudos to you that your wife knows even this part of your story. Some people, they haven't even. Like, this is like, the start. So I just want to say kudos that you guys have talked through this. Thank you.
- [16:26]
C
Yeah, no, thank you. So, yeah, I would say that healing for me from that abuse, honestly, didn't really come to me probably till 18, 19, maybe 20. I, too, served a mission and at that point had a lot of flooding of. I don't know if it's guilt or remorse or like, I was at a point where I didn't feel like I had dealt with that loss of innocence or, you know, sexual trust being broken by at that point, not an adult, but an older teenager when I was five to seven, and Andrew hadn't had.
- [17:02]
A
The opportunity to discuss it with anyone.
- [17:05]
C
No one had ever really talked to me about it.
- [17:06]
A
That's the hard part is when you're trying to process that on your own. It's very difficult because you don't have those tools to go through something that was taken from you. And so to, I think, to figure it out on your own. Does it is tricky?
- [17:20]
C
Yeah, so it was tricky. And I would say I did find some healing and some just, like, release of that hurt. And I met Corinne when I was 21 and we got married. In all honesty, Corinne is the only woman I've ever been sexually intimate with. And I would say there's been times in our marriage where maybe sex is not as connected as it needs to be, or maybe we're not prioritizing our, you know, sexual part of our relationship, but both of us desire the connection through sex and how it does, you know, bring more unity and connection in the marriage.
- [18:01]
A
And I would say you've always been very open, which I don't find with a lot of men, especially, like, with my friends and their spouses. Like, he's very open to discussing, like, the difference for a man and a woman and that cycle of emotional connection needed for the woman before she can physically connect. And I think that's been huge in our relationship. He's always believed that that's a fact. And I think that that's huge as a woman, for me to have him hear that and take it as a fact. Like, I need to be checked in with her and take care of her emotionally before we have that connection. Like, he's always bought into that, believed it. And I think that's where a lot of Our lack of dysfunction maybe has come from. Is that always. From the beginning, we were pretty on the same page. He would believe what I would say. I believed what he would say about his feelings, about it. And there wasn't, like, a lack of direct communication or discussion between us.
- [19:00]
C
Yeah. And then as far as, like, pornography, I will say this. It's probably 12, 13. I was at the mall with some friends. One of my friends stole, like, a pornographic magazine from a bookstore and showed me pictures out of that magazine. That was, like, my first exposure. And it was kind of repulsive to me. Like, I can still remember. I can still see that image in my mind, and I can still feel the feelings. Like, my stomach kind of dropped, and it kind of made me feel sick. And I was like, I don't want any part of that. And I just kind of told my friend, I'm like, I'm not interested in that. And I just left the group. And. And honestly, like, you all know, if you're on social media or the Internet, things pop up, and I can call it what it is, you know, like, I'll see an image, be like, that's pornography. And I'll just turn it off or flip it off or leave it, whatever. And I fully understand, like, I. I have family, friends, good people that have really struggled with pornography. And I'm super grateful that, like, my first response was repulse or, like, a discomfort, that I didn't really have a drive to seek it out. And I've always, you know, like, in middle school, high school, I always had girlfriends. I enjoyed, you know, holding hands, hugging, kissing. I liked having a relationship. I have four sisters of the six, you know, one brother, four sisters. So I kind of always grew up around a lot of feminine energy, and I think I'm drawn to it. You know, I love the feminine, and I love my wife. And so maybe because I got, you know, married so young and kind of in a pretty good place, it was like eight months after I finished my Christian mission that I. Like, I was in a pretty whole. And Corinne was also in a really whole place when we met, dated, and got married. So we were both feeling pretty sexually ready to be together.
- [20:50]
B
Jeff, I like the. I like your openness to sharing and exploring this. I don't think I feel like diving or like, I don't have any other further questions as far as the sexual piece, unless you do. I like the openness that's in your heart around this area. Sounds like you guys have had a lot of conversations, and those are signs of health in this area. I also would just always encourage, as you continue to step deeper into your body, if there becomes a greater awareness and like a greater desire for intimacy that you guys want to experience and if there's like, if there's like anything preventing that. Because like, Caitlyn came into our relationship with really no, no pornographic exposure, minimally dated and like really had no, no baggage like I did and, or opposite from me. And she still had instances where we would go to be intimate and she was like seeing like this erotic like sex scene play out in her mind. That wasn't us, but it was where her mind was taking her. And it was more of just like she would share that with me vulnerably. And that led to some really just intimate dialogue. So if you guys, as you guys are basically bringing your souls, you're already in union. But as you go deeper, if, if things come up for either of you that feels like, hey, like this, this like random mental picture is like coming to me and it's not us like just feeling the freedom to release that together. But it sounds like you guys already are there. I want to dive back into Caitlyn's got.
- [22:11]
D
Yeah, I was going to say a couple things. I'll just share with that too, because I think you guys said off air that you. One thing, one piece of what you're hoping to, you know, advance or move into is a deeper level of intimacy and connection. And you guys are probably well aware I didn't coin this of I love saying it. Those intimacy is into me, you see. And so a lot of people will use intimacy instead of using the word sex just because I think it makes them feel more comfortable, which is totally valid. And I like to say that sex is really the byproduct of actual intimacy. And so, you know, you were really open to list a couple of examples here of, you know, like say you get on social media and there's something on there, I think people call it social media porn, call it whatever it is, like nude, half nude, scantily dressed people on there, you know, after you've been in, you've been in the community for now a year, like you said, our, our belief system. And intimacy is like those things are then shared with each other, right? So it's like so, you know, you're having this experience and that's how you essentially create a life without any sexual brokenness and with full intimacy because there's nothing hidden. So then none of that. Like, it's like as soon as you see something and don't share it, then it, like, holds almost like a ping of power. And so as you're having these moments, this might already. It sounds like, I mean, you weren't ashamed to share any of this. So, you know, here with us and then here with Corinne. So it sounds like this might already be something that you're moving into as you have these experiences, you know, on social media or maybe out and about, whatever. These are things that you're still bringing to each other so that no, like, ping of power still remains. And with that, the only thing I'll drop, because I'm not gonna, you know, we're not gonna just sit here and accuse you and interrogate you. The only nugget I'll drop is that a lot of men will claim for a very long time that they have absolutely no addiction. And sometimes I like to. I even said this in the last. The last podcast, which we were able to actually help that person realize there was a lot more to the story that they hadn't fully seen. Is when I hear a story of sexual abuse and then a story of exposure to pornography, but then there's nothing, no, nothing else in there. I either commend you, because that's incredible. Like, you're like, literally one of the point, you know, like, you're like 99.9% of people that have that sort of story or that like this plus this, you know, normally equals to some sort of addiction that they are then need to have an experience of transforming. And so potentially, you are one of those very rare people who, who did not have one of those experiences. And for the sake of your guys's own explorations, and then for the sake of everyone listening as well, I. We always like to be. To be extra cautious because, for instance, someone we were very close with when Brandon was sharing about his. His story of transformation, realizing like, oh, I've been lying to myself in all these ways. Here's where I'm going to heal. And, and this is the book I'm gonna read and says to this, this close. This close person to us. Will you read this book with me? That person says, I've never struggled with pornography, never had a sexual addiction. I'm not gonna read that book with you. This doesn't even like, this doesn't match my, My, My time right now.
- [25:39]
B
She said, I'll read it to learn about people like you.
- [25:42]
D
Yes, I'll read it to learn about people like you. And then fast forward. I don't even know if he lost the book. So Then he never read the book. Fast forward three plus years, he's coming clean and confessing that he's had a porn his whole life. Again, I'm not trying to impose that. That is your story. And at the same time, what we like to teach people, especially as you're thawing out and coming into your body, which I think we could explore your childhood regarding emotions in just a minute, is as you're going, you know, through our seven step framework and getting into your body, if there are things that you become enlightened to. Because especially when, when there's a story of abuse, sometimes the brain, as a safety mechanism will keep some memories stored away to keep us feeling safe. So as memories come up, just as you've already done in your marriage, it's like, oh, I'm remembering this story, you know, that was sometime shortly after my abuse or sometime shortly after I was exposed to pornography or some other time, you know, when you're on your mission or before we're married, whatever it is. It's like as you're getting back into your body, there may be things you remember and you've already established a foundation of intimacy in your union where there's actual into me, you see, and then you're just continuing to create that with the things that are coming up. And so something I was thinking is we can dive more into the embodiment piece and the regret and the resentment. I was wondering if you could share a little bit more about your. You said, Corinne, that you grew up in a family where there's a lot of talking and that, Jeff, you grew up in a family where there was not a lot of talking. And I think you even said maybe there wasn't a lot of emotions expressed. So maybe describe your childhood. You described your, your sexual experience in your childhood. Describe the, like, emotional container of your home. Like, when you're upset, what did you do? What did your parents do? Did you get in trouble? What was that like? Like, do you remember receiving comfort? I know you mentioned you were really lonely, so kind of maybe fill in a couple of puzzle pieces in there of what? What was that like growing up?
- [27:46]
C
No, I appreciate that. Yeah, emotions were frowned upon. And I would say even Corinne has seen, like, my parents have never had, like an argument in front of us. And even my mom will complain that my dad will not conflict with her. When I was crying, I was sent to my mom, sit on your bed until you can figure that out. So there wasn't a lot of like, hugging or physical touch to help me Soothe. So it was mostly laying on my bed, either, you know, seething in anger or crying in fear or sadness. I don't even know that I had those words until, honestly, two years ago, three years ago. Like, it just felt lonely to me. And I'm not going to say I had bad parents, but they just weren't available or even themselves. Still not emotionally.
- [28:35]
A
I think it's definitely like a generational thing as well. Like, we have two adult daughters that are recently married, and their level of understanding and dissecting and being able to communicate with their spouse so much higher than ours.
- [28:50]
C
And I credit that Corinne. Corinne has been very much my emotional crutch over the last 26 years. Like, she's been the one that helps me kind of process things because I didn't really have the tools or even the understanding or I guess even the desire to, like, really understand what happened in my childhood, what happened when I was a teenager.
- [29:10]
A
It's hard to have the desire when you feel like you have no skills to go anywhere with it. And I feel like even with your parents, that was it. Like, we don't know how to do this. So we're not going to deal with emotions because we have no skills to deal with it. And then that comes to your children and eventually becomes your partner's problem as well. And I think Jeff did a good job picking someone completely opposite in that aspect. Like, we are very different in. I know my emotions almost immediately. I know what they would be if something happened or if the conversation shifted. And Jeff doesn't know his emotions. Well, previously, I would say previously didn't know his emotions, didn't know how he felt or what he thought about things because he didn't feel like he had the tools to figure it out. Why would you waste time on it? It's more confusing than enlightening at that point, I think when you don't know what to do with it, why even start?
- [30:07]
C
Yeah. And I would say into my teenage years, I got angry, when I really think about it, 16 to 18. And, you know, like, over the last year, I've done a lot of, you know, reflecting, journaling and stuff. I can just remember being so angry, listening to really hard music, driving in my car, screaming, just being, like, angry. And I remember kind of expressing that a few times and being told that that's not safe or that's not something I want in my life. So I kind of just repressed it.
- [30:32]
A
And that wasn't for me, by the way.
- [30:34]
C
No, that was from my parents or.
- [30:35]
A
I Would prefer the yelling screaming over the silent. And I think, luckily, we've gotten to a point where we have calm, good, open discussions with a lot of passion on both of our opinions, and I love that. And so I'm super grateful that you guys have taken that opportunity in your life to see. To fill a void, because it really is a void out there for men. There's not a lot of content for it. There's not a lot of programs for it. Definitely not a lot of programs. Like, Caitlyn, we had said previously, before we started recording, for a union, for a husband and wife to be that literally connected. And when you grow up religious, it's. You are one.
- [31:12]
D
Right.
- [31:12]
A
So I feel as women, we really buy into that. And then we get married, and we're like, wait, were they saying, I'm one? Because that's what it feels like, Right?
- [31:21]
D
Exactly.
- [31:22]
A
And I really just have always wanted Jeff to be in there, but he didn't have the tools.
- [31:27]
D
Yes, exactly.
- [31:28]
A
And I knew. I mean, we've been married a long time, and like I've said, we have a great marriage. Always have. It's a lot of work.
- [31:35]
D
Right.
- [31:35]
A
My youngest daughter will joke sometimes when I talk to you, mom, I don't feel like I want to get married when I hear you talk about marriage. And I was like, perfect, because then, you know, it takes work. Then when you wake up upset or disenchanted by it, you'll. You'll recognize that and be like, that's how my mom and dad felt. And they absolutely loved each other, adored each other, were completely committed to each other. It's just part of the process of marriage, process of relationships. And I feel like fighting for that to be the one with Jeff and I together instead of I'm the one in it. I think that has been probably the most fulfilling thing because he's learned those tools from the program that you guys put out there. He's learned how to fill his emotions, label them, and share them.
- [32:15]
D
Wow. That's huge.
- [32:16]
C
I absolutely was a nice guy. So that's that book. No more Mr. Nice Guy heavily, heavily resonated with me. I also read the Unwanted that you recommended, and I honestly think it did help me through some of that abuse again, like, even, like, go back and really reflect on the, you know, pornography exposures and even that abuse as a young child. And so those resources have been really helpful. But I would absolutely say that masculine in the relationship has been the biggest game changer for me. And really, like, a consistent embodiment routine has Allowed me to get out of my head and actually feel in my body. And the emotional response training, you know, on the side of that actually did really help me because, you know, Brandon would walk through, what does it feel like to feel angry? And then I would, you know, visualize something that made me actually angry. And I'd, like, sit in my body and wait and feel it. Which.
- [33:11]
A
Well, he's explaining this to me, and I'm like, duh.
- [33:14]
D
Yeah.
- [33:15]
A
You know, but it's like he's excited about this process. And I'm like, you're like, I've been.
- [33:20]
D
Saying this for 26 years, and I.
- [33:23]
A
Feel like I will voice this because I've had my best friend saw us. I think you started the program in October, and we went out to visit her in December, so around two months maybe. And it was just her and Jeff and I for a few days hanging out. And she just said to me, oh, my gosh, what happened between you guys? Like, and we don't have a. We'd never have had a volatile relationship. Like, we've never been problematic. Yeah. Like, not even in person or in public. It's just that one. I wanted to be one. Yeah. By myself. Like, that's our main hang up in our marriage.
- [34:04]
D
Right.
- [34:05]
A
She could steal it for her to notice that. And because people would ask me, what has he done? Was it he done? I said, he joined this grounded man. And I don't know for sure what it was, but within two weeks, I was like, he is different.
- [34:19]
B
Wow, that's awesome.
- [34:20]
A
Within two weeks, I was like, I don't care about so many of the things that I, like, picked about caring about. Because our connection was so good, I could let those things go.
- [34:30]
D
Yeah.
- [34:30]
B
Yeah. Which I think speaks to Jeff. Kudos. I mean, you didn't hop on here to just have your fan you. Fan you off.
- [34:38]
C
But no, we need some help. Brandon, Caitlin, those resentments and regrets still are very active.
- [34:44]
B
We're gonna talk about. I'm gonna talk about regret in a second, but for the reason Corinne is saying this is because you didn't do it for her approval. You did this out of your own inner awakening of, like, I want to feel my body. And Corinne's just witnessing you and like, mm. Oh. He's engaging his environment differently. He's showing up differently. And that's a felt thing. So you don't. You don't actually. You don't even get the pre. You don't get the opportunity to prove that to her. It's literally just. You're having a different experience of your life, of your relationship. And she's getting to be a partaker of that. That's why I always tell people, you know, we talk about. It takes two people. And oftentimes, you know, we'll just take this example where the wife's desiring a deep. Corinne's desiring a deeper experience of union. And just saying, like, I'll. I'll join you. He elevates his ability to feel and engage in that place. And she immediately is. You're experiencing her in a different way because you're. You actually have like, this whole window of you that's now available and has capacity to engage with her in that way. And that's. That's a really powerful thing. I will talk about regret in just a second, but I want to talk about why I think women, and this isn't all women, but a lot of women are. We'll call it more mature or more advanced in ex. In experiencing emotion. I'm not saying that all women have, like, have harnessed their emotions well, but understand that process is. I think that one. Men don't have this really initiation experience of, like, you're now a grown man. These are the qualities and the characteristics of what it means to be a man, to take hold of your life, to feel and. And lead and choose and be intentional. It's just kind of like, go figure it out. Try to make a living. Jump into the chaos and do your best. And so what women do is what they have, is they have their. Their menstrual cycle, which is this internal awareness of, oh, my body is now able to conceive a child. And this. Your body literally gives you this visceral experience of you can conceive a child now, and then what happens? A woman can then conceive a child. And it's not just like during the act of conception, she carries this child for 40 weeks in her womb. And you feel the growth and the changes and the hormones, and then you give birth to a child. And that's like the most initiating experience that exists in this world, regardless of the exact birth experience. And a lot of times, I think men are kind of just like onlookers to this experience where the woman's like, I had my baby. I'm nursing my baby. And the man's like, when do I get my initiation? Till when do I get this? And so I think that's where the embodiment piece of. And for those of you listening are like, what's embodiment? It's just the act of doing 10 to 15 minutes of mindfulness. It can be box breathing, any sort of breath, work or body movement that brings you into a somatic healing state. Like what's the point of it to be in your, to be in the present moment. When you live your life in the present, you experience things relationally. I think we trick ourselves into thinking we can live life from the past or the future. If you're leaning towards the future or you're regretting the past, you're not able to experience the now. And that's what the embodiment work does, is it helps your nervous system, say, pick up on the information of the present moment, which is your relationship. So I want to talk about regret. Jeff, you maybe heard me say this in a coaching call over the last year, but regret and remorse have been a big part of my healing journey. And I know that we're young and everybody comments on how young we are. Nobody was there for the first five years because we, we spent every single day together. We worked in the same non profits. So we've literally been married like 100 years because we've, we've spent all day together. Those first five years, it was like we just had to see the ugly day in and day out. I experienced a lot of regret when I found out how simple removing a massive roadblock was. Corinne's like in two weeks he's somebody I don't recognize. Jeff's like, why didn't I have this 25 years ago to just how to be in my body? Or why couldn't I have been there for Corinne 10 years ago? We don't get the do over in that sense. And that's where Caitlin talked to, talked about the beginning of this episode. Right from wrong, good or bad. Did you do a bad job your first 20 years? We could label it as that. Or if we make this process about maturity, everything internally changes. Regret no longer becomes I regret who I was back then. All it turns into is responsibility. I can take full ownership for how I showed up the first 25 years because I just found a new tool. It was sitting in my backyard. I didn't realize it was sitting there. I dusted it off and now I know what it feels like to engage emotionally. Now I have some tools to be in my body and I can turn that up even more and feel even more engaged. So I would say regret is feeling like what you did will permanently prevent you from experiencing the love and connection that you want now. And we both, you guys both know that's not true. So when that feeling comes up, it's just the invitation to further embody the relationship you're headed towards and the connection that you want. So I would really say it's all of. It's not an illusion. Because there was real pain, there was real disconnect. The healing balm is the responsibility of saying, yeah, I wasn't present, and I'm not bad and evil at my core. I'm not unworthy of love. There's no better time than now when we've had couples. There was a couple men at our Portland workshop. It was like. It was a guy that was 82 and there was a guy that was 86. And I would never look at somebody in their 80s and say, wow, you waited a little too long. Like, I'm, like, humbled and exhilarated to see somebody in their twenties wanting to work on their relationship and somebody in their 80s. Because we all have a different story. We all have a different family that we grew up in, different traumas. And so there is no better time than now. And now is the only time or the only place that that transformation happens. So the resentment, the regret, it's just firing into your nervous system. We didn't enjoy the fruit of that old version. And you can just say, like, thank you for making me aware of that. I'm eager to continue to build the new. And so I would just continue to make that the focus, Making this about maturity instead of what you did wrong or miss doing.
- [41:01]
D
And regret, if you think about it, regret is another emotion that you're feeling. So what you've described to us, Jeff, is like, okay, you grew up in a home where there was literally no emotions. Just like, it was pretty much just, how can we all try to be as put together as possible, right? And then. And this can be a really extreme display in religion is kind of like, okay, if we look really put together, then that must mean we have a really good relationship with God, right? Because that's kind of like the reflection. Yet what ended up happening is all the emotions in the house got swept under the rug. So you all looked put together at the cost of your own soul and knowing your own self, right? And so now what you're. What you've been learning over the last year, what you're continuing to learn is, okay, what am I feeling? What is it called? And what am I going to do with it? So this regret that's showing up is actually just another emotion that you get to look at and go, okay, what is this you can even unpack it a little bit. Like, you could call it regret or you could look and see, like, is there something else? Do I feel sad? Do I feel grief? Do I feel angry? Do I feel like disturbed? What is it? What is it? Instead of just calling it regret, it might be different. Every situation, every memory that comes up, every conversation, it's like, oh, wow, I'm realizing right now I feel regret. And I actually that means to me that I'm feeling a lot of sadness in my body that I didn't have this tool, that I didn't have this embodiment, this awareness that I didn't have capacity to show up in a certain way. And then you can even use the 4R tools. The 4R's is something we teach. You know, you guys have seen it, it's inside the community and it's, it's a tool that we use with people that are working through sexual brokenness. And if you think about it though, this is such a beautiful tool to be able to use because you can recognize what it is that you're feeling, then you can receive the emotion you want. So let's say you're feeling regret and like grief and sadness. Okay, I'm gonna receive, you know, power, peace, joy, whatever it is that you want to receive in the present moment. Then you're going to release that regret, right? Because it's not serving you anymore to carry on this backpack of regret. So you're going to. I release, like you literally saying out loud into your. You can look in the mirror, you can say it to Corinne. I release this regret, like, and then you can replace it. If I were you, I'd be replacing it with something like gratitude. Like, I'm replacing that regret with the feeling and sensation of gratitude. Like, wow, I'm so thankful that now I know what I'm feeling. I'm so thankful that now I know what to do with my emotions. Even if you have memories coming up from childhood, it's like you can even release like, whoa, here's this memory of me crying on my bed by myself when I needed somebody to tell me what I was feeling, to hold me, to comfort me, to offer me that. I didn't get that. Right, you didn't get that. So then it's like, whoa, I didn't get that. You can even replace that memory with what you wanted in that time. Okay. Six year old Jeff wanted to be sitting on his bed and he wanted to be crying as his mom was holding him and comforting him and saying, are you okay? What do you need? Right? So it's like you're essentially. You're continuing to come back home to yourself. Same with the resentment, right? So the resentment piece, that can really be fizzled out as you guys go through that validation flow. Because, Corinne, what I'm. What I'm assuming that you're wanting to experience is this. This connection, this. This closeness, this union, this oneness where it's like, oh, my gosh, for 26 years, like, you said, you were kind of carrying the team on your back, right? That's kind of the funny saying. You were carrying the emotional. The emotional maturity in the home on your back. You were the one that was teaching your kids that, that was trying to fight for that, right? And so now in these moments when you're feeling this. This sensation of grief or resentment or whatever emotion we want to call it, it's like, then when you have this time, when you're doing this validation flow, you get to vocalize the sorrow. You get to vocalize how that felt. And Jeff's in his body because you guys already said this, and we teach this. If you're not in your body first, you can't show up for someone. That's what your parents were not able to do, right. They didn't understand their own emotions, so they weren't able to show up and show you how to do anything with that. So, Jeff, now you're in your body, you understand your emotions. So then when. When your wife is coming to you with those, you're like, I'm able to receive what you're feeling and to hold still space for that, because I'm able to hold space in my own body for what I'm feeling. And the same thing, though, with the resentment, like, the four eyes is another great tool of, like, whoa. Like, I'm recognizing. I feel this grief, this resentment, and I'm receiving into my body what I want to feel, which is, you know, that could be peace in the moment of, like, okay, I'm here right now. There's the sorrow from the past.
- [46:14]
B
Yeah.
- [46:14]
D
And then it's the same. I'm releasing this, and I'm replacing this with gratitude that we're right here right now. Like, even, like you guys have said so many times, like, gratitude that your relationship is so whole and is so healthy and vibrant. Like, that is so much to celebrate. Right? So you're coming back. That's embodiment. Coming back to the present moment, what it is that you're wanting to experience and what it is that you're wanting to create moving forward. And it's not because you're just moving on and moving past. It's because you're giving that. I like to say, like memories like to have a moment to be seen, right? So all these memories from the past, they want a moment to be seen. Then when they're seen, it's like, okay, they feel free to move along and then they don't hold any space space or any power in the body anymore. So what can feel like I'm gonna feel this for forever. This feels so charged, it feels so heated, it feels so passionate. It's like it might just want to be seen. That's what they even say, like Brandon always says about, you know, when people teach about anxiety, depression, those kinds of things. It's like normally a lot of these emotions need one to two minutes to be felt and then they can move all the way out of the body. And people are running from these emotions for decades and it only needed a couple minutes to be able to move through. And so you guys are taking these, these memories from the first 26, almost 27 years of your marriage and you're just giving them a moment to be seen. And then you're recognizing those you're receiving something new and you're replacing that with what you want to create. Moving forward and all of that is. Then it's going to feel complete. The, the opposite is when we just kind of try to shove it away, which was your parents pattern, your old pattern. And that doesn't work. It'll just keep coming back and it will keep coming back with more fuel, right? So when we, when we embrace it, it's like all of us is complete and whole and seen. And that's where the intimacy is in your union. And you guys are kind of like, this is what we teach. These are like the later steps of what we teach because most people don't even, they have like years of secrets they're keeping from each other, right? So we, we can't even really help them get to these deeper levels. You guys are on this path past, past the awareness piece where you're coming home to your body and you're moving forward into the creation of what the future decades of your marriage is like now that you're in your body, like dream about that. Like, what are we going to create? Like, your kids are older, they're getting out of the house. Like that's where I'm gonna take them. Yeah, take it, take it from there.
- [48:56]
B
Caitlin was already, already reading my mind in the Same. Same way you guys are gonna be empty nesters fairly soon, correct?
- [49:02]
C
Yep.
- [49:02]
B
What does like your job? Business. What do you, what's your kind of time like?
- [49:08]
C
I'm a small business owner. I, I manufacture vitamins and supplements.
- [49:12]
D
Oh, cool.
- [49:13]
C
And honestly, I'm trying to create a vision of where me and Corinne can spend more time together and I don't have to be so tied to the office warehouse as much as I have been over the last 20 years.
- [49:28]
D
Okay, amazing.
- [49:29]
B
Well, I think that that's where what I would kind of lead you guys to as at the end of this episode here is what is the future you're talking about? Union. We're almost looking at this new chapter where I think your, your youngest daughter is still very well self managing a lot of the outward awareness of, of you know, raising kids. And you're still engaged in their lives. Absolutely. Now you get to do it from even more of a full cup because you've got the emotional capacity. Sounds like they picked up some good things from mom as well and from you. And so these are like, these are the potential to be the golden years where you're moving into legacy and being able to enjoy the fruit of all that you've created. Sounds like if you've had a small business that's been there for 20 years, it's probably not super small and it's probably done some pretty significant things. So you've accomplished big things in that. And I would love for you guys to sit down and just get clear on what does the next year look like for us? What is the next five years like? How do we want to be spending our time? Is it volunteering? Is it doing some traveling? Is it, is it you working part time? And you guys, I'm just going to throw out golf. I don't know if you want to go golfing twice a week together, but almost like if you guys golf.
- [50:38]
A
But he's gonna have to learn.
- [50:39]
C
I have 2 son in laws now and they both love golf. And I'm like, oh my gosh, now I gotta learn how to golf.
- [50:44]
B
There you go.
- [50:44]
D
Exactly. Yeah.
- [50:45]
B
So I would say, like, I would really clarify for both of you together, what does it look like to live. I'm going to say the most generic. To live our best life right now, that is. And this is what we, we like Caitlin said, this is what we're trying to get couples to. You don't heal from a lot, a lot of couples are healing from such deep things and you guys are, you know, from the loss and the regret and the lack of presence. Like, you don't just heal from that stuff to then just be roommates. Like, this is meant to be, like, fun. Like, Caitlin and I have a lot of fun together. Every day is an adventure. Sometimes we're like, how did this get so good? And even in the fullness of raising four kids and one that's jumping and climbing off everything right now, it's like we still look at each other at the end of the day and we're like, this is so amazing. And so I would. I would get clear on the. On the time, the focus. Are there anything coming to mind for the two of you when you think about kind of what your vision is? Have you guys had those conversations?
- [51:41]
A
Yeah, I think for sure we've had those conversations. I mean, having your children get married definitely, like, makes that those conversations that, like, at your forefront. And I think for a lot of women my age, in my late 40s, it's like, are we gonna like each other when we're. Our kids are gone. But that's been like, one of my driving motives from the beginning. Like, we need to be solid. Because I do believe that's like, the best gift you can give your kids is like, show em how to work through conflict. Show them how to stand up for what they need. Show them how to push their spouse to be their spouse's best self. Because really, when. And maybe, Caitlin, you can. You'll agree with me on this. When I was like, jeff, I need you to be checked in. Jeff, I need you to pay attention. Jeff, I want. It was because I wanted more of him, not a different version. And I feel like so many men hear that and they think she wants me to change. And I felt like once that got through to Jeff, like, I don't want you to change who you are. I want you to step into who you are. And I want full access to that. Just like you've had full access to me.
- [52:46]
D
Exactly.
- [52:47]
A
That's really good, that complete availability. I feel like if men could understand that, they would be less defensive. They would shut down less. They wouldn't take it as a personal attack. Like, my wife doesn't like me. My wife's not happy, so I must be failing. And I feel like, Brandon, I know you probably know this because it's what you guys do, but, like, hearing it from another man, something clicked differently. I'm a pretty good communicator. I've come at Jeff with this, with like, anger, harshness, calmness, sweetness, niceness, like, salty. You tried it all and it didn't. There was no click, there was no turnover, no light bulb. But within two weeks of talking to a group of men, he heard something differently. Our kids played college soccer, so grew up playing very competitive sports. And sometimes they would have a trainer come, a personal trainer, and that trainer would say something that their coach has been telling them for years.
- [53:43]
D
Right.
- [53:43]
A
And my girls would come home and be like, oh my gosh, the trainer told me this. And I was like, your coach is going to be so mad because he's been telling you that forever. But they needed to hear it from someone else. They needed to hear it in a way that they could accept it, not get that defensiveness. And I feel like that men's program, that is one of the things I will die on that hill. Like, find other men who want to be better and listen to what they have to say because your husband will hear it different. Coming from the male perspective, maybe it's easier to access or what is. What do you think?
- [54:12]
C
I absolutely think that's right. And I think, I don't know if the phrase like iron sharpens iron, but like, men can hold each other accountable. Especially if the men that you're communicating with are open, transparent, and want to grow. Then all of a sudden you can safely share and feel heard in a completely different way. Something I've never really had in my entire life. And I always joke like, the greatest miracle of Jesus is that he had 12 adult male friends. And that's the truth is like, there's, there's not a lot of friendship for men. Like, I worked so much and I was, you know, in. Another thing is I was coaching soccer extensively. And so I was just not able to have so many good men in my life. And, you know, one of the sparks of me joining Grounded as a men's community was like, I need a mentor. I need, I need a man in my life that can teach me tools that I was never taught.
- [55:12]
B
Yeah.
- [55:13]
C
And it's, it's been life changing to.
- [55:16]
A
Me and support you through it and.
- [55:18]
C
Support me, you know, and I've had some weekends where I'll go up with some, you know, male friends and we'll sit and like, really talk. And I wouldn't have been able to do that without going through the first at least 90 days to six months of the program. Like, I wouldn't even know what to say. But now I'm having conversations with my son in laws and I want. And I told him, I'm like, I'm not your father. I can be your mentor. You know, like, I want nothing but success as you are starting this marriage with my daughter.
- [55:49]
D
Amazing.
- [55:50]
C
I will be your mentor and I want, you know, if you feel safe, and I want you to feel safe, like, yeah, you can come to me and I'm going to share with you what I've learned in the last year. And I'm just so. And I think that's kind of what we keep coming back to is man, like, there's sadness that we had 25, 26 years. That was 94% there. 96% there. But those that, that emotional connection.
- [56:17]
D
Yep.
- [56:17]
C
I was so stunted that we weren't able to have a true deep connection. And I just want to say thank you and super grateful that you guys, you know, put yourself out there in a very vulnerable way. That one, it resonated with my wife enough that she would send it to me. And then like Chris said, you said it in a way that a man can hear it. And I've been open to it. I've been looking for it.
- [56:41]
D
Yeah.
- [56:41]
C
And yeah, I, I am extremely grateful that the resources and, you know, the messages and you know, even the, you know, the books and different programs that are inside the Grounded app, like it's been, you know, life changing or.
- [56:58]
A
Yeah, for sure. And I think to the people that say you're too young, you want to go 26 years, don't you want to go 40 years of marriage before you deal with it? There's not one marriage that I know that this isn't a disconnect that they have unless they've gone through it and done the work. It doesn't start off connected like that. Think it for the first couple of years when things are easy and you're like in that honeymoon phase, but the reality is you have to learn how to connect with yourself, with your feelings to be able to connect with someone. And it's a domino effect, for sure. We just talked with our son in law last night and he said Jeff took him out to dinner a couple weeks ago and was talking to him about the embodiment.
- [57:36]
D
Wow.
- [57:37]
A
And he said, I haven't done a ton of it, but I wrote down like some positive affirmations. And I tell myself, and I'm trying to do those embodiment because he doesn't know his emotions and feelings. And our daughter said, I noticed in a couple weeks they feel more connected and they're newlyweds and that's, I mean, wouldn't you love to go back Caitlin and Brandon and be like, we figured this out the first three years of our marriage.
- [58:00]
D
Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
- [58:01]
B
Yeah.
- [58:02]
A
I think it's a gift to figure it out young, so. And I think it's a gift to figure it out when you're 80. Yeah. Any aha moment, I would. It's priceless.
- [58:11]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [58:12]
D
That's really powerful, guys. I think even as you're talking, it's like, this is the legacy of what you're creating. Like, as I'm listening to you guys, it's like, oh, wow. Like, there's so much beauty to fill your cup with as you're. As you're moving through the sensations of regret and remorse and resentment. It's like, look at now what you get to replace this with. Like your, your daughters and the relationships they're ending, entering into. Like, they get to know what it's like to be in their body, to have, like to be in touch with their emotions. Like, look at the legacy of what you're creating.
- [58:48]
C
So it's actually one of the things I wanted to say. Caitlin was like, the biggest legacy that, you know, I shared with Corinne last night is like, I want my grandchildren to be raised in a home where they know this stuff, you know, like, wow, we don't have grandchildren yet. But that's, that's one of the deepest desires of my heart, is that the kids will be raised in an environment that they're safe and understand what they're feeling. Like, that's the legacy. And if I can help other men and friends, son in laws, family members learn what I've learned, I'm all in. Because the world is a better place when there's safe men in the world that know what they feel like. There's too much brokenness because men have just not been taught the tools to understand what they're going through.
- [59:37]
D
Yeah. Really beautiful. Thank you guys for sharing.
- [59:40]
B
Yeah. I want to thank you guys for, for joining us on this, on this episode, and thank you guys for listening. Jeff and Corinne, you added so much value to the show, for coming on, sharing your story and for doing the work. I hope you've been inspired by Corinne's clarity. Similar, like what Caitlin has shared. Corinne had clarity for the. The desire of her heart, which led you to, to be steadfast over the years, but also to even invite Jeff gently or sternly at times to join you in that, that, that access. And Jeff, you're like, yeah, I'm. You've been in a place of curiosity for long enough that when the resources made themselves available to you they there was good soil for them to spring up. So kudos to you guys for those. Any of you listening that would like to work with us in the app. You can look at the show notes to learn more about the Grounded Union app and the resources that we offer that were mentioned in this episode. And we'll see you next week.