Signs That Your Spouse Is Lying to You

Summary

The Grounded Union Podcast

Episode: Signs That Your Spouse Is Lying to You
Hosts: Brandon and Caitlyn Doerksen
Date: July 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this deeply vulnerable episode, Brandon and Caitlyn Doerksen dive into the uncomfortable but crucial topic of dishonesty within marriage. They candidly discuss the signs your spouse is lying, the underlying reasons for dishonesty, and how deceit erodes intimacy and connection. Drawing from their own marriage struggles and healing journey—including the brink of divorce—they offer raw insights and actionable advice for listeners who suspect secrecy and long for deeper connection and honesty.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Honest Intimacy Matters

• Vulnerability & Honesty
  • Brandon emphasizes that marriage is the ultimate vulnerability—sex, shared life, parenting—so withholding parts of oneself is fundamentally corrosive.
  • "If you're willing to swap your genitals together...then everything about you...there's nothing more intimate or vulnerable." — Brandon [00:29]
• Denial and Self-Deception
  • Dishonesty often starts as lying to oneself, rationalizing secrecy out of fear, shame, or doubt that change is possible.
  • “You have to ask yourself, why do I believe that it's better for me to keep a part of who I am a secret?” — Brandon [02:37]

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2. Core Signs Your Spouse is Lying

A. Intuition & Emotional Disconnection

• Women’s Intuitive Knowing
  • Caitlyn stresses that many women know something is off, even without proof.
  • “Most women actually just intuitively know… it’s as if I’m doing it, as if I’m a part of it, because we have made ourselves one.” — Caitlyn [05:20]
  • If you're persistently dismissed or minimized when you ask questions, it's a red flag.
  • “I was persistent with my intuition…no, this answer isn’t right here.” — Caitlyn [07:17]

B. Defensiveness & Mind Games

• Omission and Wordplay
  • Lying by omission, minimizing, or redefining what constitutes a lie.
  • “When you live in denial, you play mind games.” — Caitlyn [03:52]
• Defensiveness as a Red Flag
  • Angry, dismissive, loud, or shut-down responses signal hidden issues.
  • “You’re only defensive about something you want to protect...your young cubs are your little lies.” — Caitlyn [16:14]

C. Double Life & Incongruence

• Public vs. Private Persona
  • A spouse who acts one way in public but is disconnected or withdrawn at home is likely hiding something.
  • “If they can trick everybody else that they're a connected, loving husband...but then when you get in the car, they're shutting you down…they’re living that double life.” — Brandon [22:13]
• Professional “Actor” Syndrome
  • Adopting multiple roles (e.g., pastor, businessman) to hide from self and partner.

D. Screen Time & Dissociation

• Unexplained Screen Use
  • Hiding behind phones, video games, or social media, especially when defensive about content or duration.
  • “If you see your spouse need their phone to survive, they have lost a grip on how to use their technology…” — Brandon [34:12]
  • Brandon recounts lying about gaming and social media use, then realizing the deeper web of lies it concealed.

E. Blame-Shifting & Excuse-Making

• Blame the Questioner
  • Deflecting or blaming the spouse for being insecure, or blaming circumstances or others.
  • “Blame is such a powerful strategy...She did feel some insecurity. ‘Maybe that’s what it is.’ So it’s that shift of focus.” — Brandon [43:11]

F. Lying About “Stupid” Things

• Small, seemingly inconsequential lies (about food, games, whereabouts) are usually symptomatic of deeper layers of dishonesty.
  • “If you’re lying about stupid things, you’re lying about big things.” — Caitlyn [39:34]

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3. The Cost of Secrecy

• Emotional and Relational Toll
  • Withheld truths breed suspicion, kill intimacy, and force partners to let parts of themselves “die” to cope.
  • “If you know that something’s being kept from you...you have to let a part of yourself die where you’re like, ‘I know he’s keeping things from me, I’m going to play dumb.’ That comes at a cost, too.” — Brandon [18:49]
• The Addict’s Mindset
  • Lying is often seen as a way to avoid the feared consequences (divorce, discomfort, kids being hurt), but in reality, it creates personal and relational death.
  • “You’re only dishonest because you don’t think it’s going to actually benefit you or the relationship. And I’m telling you, you’re dying.” — Brandon [19:43]

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4. What Real Confession and Healing Look Like

• Curiosity Over Defensiveness

  • Willingness to self-examine, journal, and openly discuss uncomfortable truths.
  • “Curiosity is the opposite of defensiveness...When they move into curiosity, that means they are open to healing.” — Caitlyn [29:10]

• Breaking the Structure

  • True breakthrough comes when the lying spouse is genuinely broken by the impact and openly weeps, commits to seeing reality, and ceases blame.
  • “If you haven’t seen them break, then they actually haven’t let the entire system that allows them to continue lying get removed.” — Brandon [46:53]

• Transparency and Detailed Sharing

  • Healing involves full understanding: dissecting the past, sharing specifics, facing childhood traumas, and rebuilding trust through real exposure of hidden areas.
  • “You’re finally just getting words to what’s been going on...Seeing clearly is healing clearly. You can’t heal if you can’t see.” — Caitlyn [32:32]

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5. Contrast: Disconnection vs. True Connection

• Disconnection:
  • Separate lives, minimal interaction, different rooms/screens, low enthusiasm for one another.
  • “You don’t find Brandon and I in opposite spaces of the house...that is not a connected union.” — Caitlyn [48:43]
• Real Connection:
  • Best-friendship, shared rituals, eye contact, time together, mutual excitement.
  • “It's that we love being together...every moment we enjoy as a family, as a couple...life is so, so good.” — Caitlyn [51:01]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:29] – Brandon on why withholding is torturous.
• [03:52] – Caitlyn on mind games and intuitive knowing.
• [07:17] – Caitlyn recounts catching Brandon through persistence and intuition.
• [16:14] – Defensive reactions as a signal; the “mama bear” analogy.
• [22:13] – "Paid actors" analogy for public/private incongruence.
• [34:12] – Phone addiction and its link to secrecy.
• [39:34] – “If you’re lying about stupid things, you’re lying about big things.”
• [43:11] – Blame as a strategy to deflect suspicion.
• [46:53] – The necessity of “breaking” for real healing.
• [48:43] – Disconnected living: the famous couple's “self-care” example.
• [51:01] – What joyful, connected union looks like.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Vulnerability:
  “If you’re going to bring children into the world...there’s nothing more intimate or vulnerable than being seen in your weakest state.” — Brandon [00:29]

• On Intuition:
  “It’s as if I’m doing it, as if I’m a part of it, because we have made ourselves one.” — Caitlyn [05:20]

• On Defensiveness as Proof of Lying:
  “You’re only defensive about something you want to protect...your young cubs are your little lies.” — Caitlyn [16:14]

• On Addictive Double Lives:
  “If you see your spouse able to put on a show, that’s a massive red flag that there are things that they are keeping from you and from others.” — Brandon [22:13]

• On the Need for Authenticity:
  “The only you is the real you. And that’s sobering.” — Brandon [28:11]

• On Curiosity Leading to Healing:
  “Curiosity is the opposite of defensiveness.” — Caitlyn [29:10]

• On the Pain of Withholding:
  “When you let a part of yourself die…that comes at a cost, too.” — Brandon [18:49]

• On “Full Disclosure” Not Being Enough Without Behavioral Change:
  “I don’t care if they did a polygraph...if they’re acting out in any of these ways, they did not share the full truth with you.” — Caitlyn [44:59]

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Key Takeaways

• Listen to your intuition; don’t let defensiveness or blame from your spouse gaslight your reality.
• Defensiveness, double lives, increased secrecy and screen use, lies about small things, and blame are all major red flags.
• The true breakthrough requires breaking down—full internal acknowledgment, willingness to be seen, and detailed confession, not just external “checking the box.”
• Disconnection isn’t “normal marriage”—it’s a sign of secrecy or withheld parts. Genuine connection is possible and much richer than most imagine.

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For Listeners Seeking Change

Brandon and Caitlyn stress that radical honesty, while extremely hard, unlocks deep freedom and fulfillment. They invite listeners to pursue full truth-telling, self-examination, and active engagement on the journey from secrecy to real union.

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This summary distills the heart of the episode, capturing the Doerksens’ honest, encouraging, and direct tone alongside practical wisdom—a guide for those determined to face the truth and heal their marriage chains.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome back to the Grounded Union Podcast. We're in season four, episode eight. We're talking about signs that your spouse is lying to you. And this is a heavy one. But it's why you're all here. It's one of the things we're most known for because we talk about the nitty gritty of dishonesty, of what's really underneath the surface. And I think that I'll give you this, a little bit of a health class here. If you're willing to swap your genitals together with another person, sex, then everything about you, like, it's the most vulnerable, intimate thing you can do if you're going to bring children into the world. Like, gosh, like, there's nothing more intimate or vulnerable than being seen in your weakest state, your most vulnerable state, experiencing pleasure together. That there would be parts of you that you would withhold or that you would lead to believe that there's some. This is what I lead you to believe about what I do or who I am, but really I'm somebody else. It's torturous to the person that's on the receiving end, but also on the giving end. I don't think a lot of men would say, like, you know, my deepest desire in life is to be known and to be loved. I'll see if I can get the words for it. Usually, intimacy, connection, closeness. These are kind of words that we prescribe more to what women want. Men often in our spaces, talk about wanting peace, joy, connection, too.

[B]

Fulfillment.

[A]

Fulfillment. And when you lie to your spouse, you're holding back parts of who you are that prevent you from ever feeling that sense of fulfillment, satisfaction, pleasure, exhilaration. Like you. You. Part of you has to stay debt if you choose to leave big parts of you from your spouse. So for a lot of you, you started, maybe you went in your dating relationship, you were fooling around with somebody else. You never got clean about that. You brought that in the marriage. You've had this double life which we're going to talk about, but now you're at this crossroads because you're like, well, we've been married all the. All these years, but under the agreement that I was going to keep part of me from you. And now you're at this place where she's seeing the real you or you're seeing the real her. And it's like, it's ugly because she didn't know who you were because you. You kept part of you behind. You kept parts of your actions unknown that you know would Destroy the relationship and are destroying the relationship. So that first step we always talk about in the seven steps is leaving that trap of denial that says it's better if parts of me don't get seen. And if part of you stays hidden, part of your actions, your behaviors, the lies, the betrayal, part of it stays in the dark. Part of you will never experience fulfillment, and it increases the likelihood that your relationship isn't going to survive. So we're going to talk about these signs like, that there's still dishonesty. And. And like our mentors told us, like, lying starts with lying to yourself. So if you want to know how to stop lying, you have to know yourself. You have to ask yourself, like, why do I believe that it's better for me to keep a part of who I am a secret? I think for most men, when it comes to sexual brokenness, the reason they keep it a secret is they think it's part of who they are. There's a lot of shame, but they actually don't believe that they can change it. They've been told from so many religious circles, counselors, books, content that says, this is how you are. Learn to live with it. So me telling you, like, why would I tell you? You know, like, you've heard it too. Like, if this is. I'm going to deal with the sexual brokenness thing about Visual man, like, why am I being honest with you about something that's going to be a struggle for the rest of my life? And that was something that clicked for me. It's like, I only don't want to tell Caitlin because I'm doing damage control. And this is what we tell. We say a lot. We were talking about this about in the cars, A lot of counseling, a lot of encouragement to people in addiction. It's a learn to live with it approach. We believe you can learn to live free. Therefore, honesty is required, and it's also the door that unlocks your greatest freedom.

[B]

Yeah. So let's talk through some of the signs on how you know if your spouse is keeping something from you. One thing I'll even just say is most women actually just intuitively know. We don't even have that as a no. But as you think about lying, as you think about your spouse lying to you, and of course, this could. This could be flipped. You know, it could be both spouses lying. Oftentimes that actually really is the case. Or lying people sometimes don't like that word. When you live in denial, you play mind games. So when I use the word lying, Right now, you might think I'm not lying. I'm keeping a secret. Right? That's.

[A]

That's leaving out details, omission, omitting details,

[B]

leaving a couple details out. I just. I just made it sound less significant than it really is. I just told. Yeah. Part of the story, not the full story.

[A]

Swap definitions.

[B]

Yeah, I just gave it a different name than what it really is. You know, whatever. Whatever the story is, it's like, oh, I'm not lying. So this doesn't apply to me. See some of those mind games there that you start to play, so really, if you want to heal, you drop the mind games and that. It's like, oh, gosh, that feels so complicated, but it's really not. It's like, stop playing tricks on yourself and thinking that you're doing any sort of service to yourself. You're not. You're doing a disservice to yourself. Hence why you're watching this podcast. Anybody who's watching this podcast is not because they're having a thriving marriage. It's not because everything's going great. They feel incredibly alive. They feel connected in their union. Like, I. If there's any of you watching that are in that place, like, incredible. I love that. Most people that find us, it's because they resonate deeply with the fact that they're in their broken state right now. So the mind games you're playing are doing you a disservice. So. So back to women being very intuitive. I knew there was something off. I couldn't put my finger on it. Again, I'm young, I'm 19. When we get married, slightly naive, slightly innocent, childlike. All the things, I just could tell there was something off. Right. I also intuitively knew what I wanted. I knew what sexual connection was that I wanted to create. I knew what type of level of freedom and wholeness I wanted to be living in together. And. And I know that a lot of women really resonate with that. They watch our content, they comment on the videos inside our community, coming to our event. It's like, oh, I already knew my husband was acting out in some sort of betrayal. You might not know the exact details. So it's like the first way to know your husband is lying is listen to your intuition. And a lot of times you might be asking your spouse. I used to ask Brandon all the time, like, are you watching inappropriate things on your phone? Like when I go to bed? No. You know, we'll talk about defensiveness in a minute. Right. That's a big conversation. But you might feel intuitively into something and you might be asking questions, you might be starting conversations and they're probably getting shut down. That doesn't mean you're wrong. That doesn't mean your intuition isn't right. Like, lean into your intuition. You most likely already know. Because again, I'm like, you know, people might be like, how would I know? How would I know? You united your soul with somebody. Yeah. You became one when you decided to get married. So we're not two separate beings anymore. Like, of course, yes, we are. And at the the same time, no, we're not. Like, we've literally created life form. We've created four little life forms from unifying ourselves together. Right. We are interwoven now. That's how you know. Because Brandon is not separate from me and I'm not separate from him. So it's like if he's out there doing anything in secrecy. Yes. He thinks it's a secret. Yet I am having inclinations, I'm having intuitive thoughts. I'm having sensations or feelings or knowings, whatever word you want to put in there. Because it's as if I'm doing it, as if I'm a part of it. Because we have made ourselves one. So if you've intuitively known, even if you've been shut down or dismissed or minimized, really lean in and listen to your intuition. I was persistent with my intuition. There was the final straw. The final night where I caught him, I think I had to ask three or four times in a slightly different way. That same question I just modeled up. So when I go to bed, you don't watch inappropriate content? No. Well, how do you, like, how do you not see inappropriate content? Because you're just binge watching car videos on YouTube. I just don't. But I don't understand because if I was binge watching on YouTube and just scrolling like, random things would pop up. Well, sometimes it does. See, like I had to just keep listening to my intuition, like, no, this answer isn't right here. And Brandon finally goes, okay, crap. Like, I gotta come clean with the truth here.

[A]

You might think, well, my wife accuses me of things I'm not doing. So that's Ari, the denial or defense mechanism, saying, like, she doesn't know what she's talking about. That's. Some of you. I. It's funny, you know, my wife is convinced I had an affair and I didn't. But she did catch me on other things of like, okay, I'm gonna tell you, Tell a few. But you know, that you know, I did watch porn and I did. You know, I was flirtatious with this gal at work, but I never had an affair. I don't know why she thinks these things I wrote around with her and all these things, and she thinks, you know, it's like. And you want to make it about her thinking that she did something I didn't do. Well, if your relationship has deteriorated to the fact that your wife feels so disconnected from you, your actions have shown that you're such an untrustworthy person that she would rather bet money on the fact that you had an affair than that you didn't, Right Then the details absolutely matter, and it's time to swallow your pride and trying to convince your wife you didn't have an affair. And it's actually just time to begin cleaning up the deterioration of your relationship, because she knows everything you've done up to this point is. It's loud and clear. And so you're like, well, my wife. Yeah. If you've worn your wife down and you're like, I'm not sure if she's intuitive like Caitlin. She just accuses me of things. If you've worn your wife down for years, I'm sorry, bro. Like, whether it's intuition or exhaustion or she just doesn't trust you or feel safe with you, they all matter. So lean into the fact. Like, this is. This is. These are the alarms that our relationship is disconnected. If you let this settle in, if your wife doesn't feel close and connected to you, like, that is. Mayday, Mayday, we have something to address here. It's not like, oh, she's always going to be in the state. No. Like, if you take an honest look at your actions, your behaviors, the secrets, that's what's destroying your relationship. That's what we always say. It's the lies that destroy the relationship. A man that's willing to say, you know what? I go to strip clubs with the fellas. I don't care. And the wife knew that getting into. Into the relationship, she's going to be less upset than the guy that pretended and was a good boy, went to church, did all the things for 10 years, and the wife finds out you were going to strip clubs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What? At least be honest.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

At least be honest. So she knows. Okay, my husband likes to sleep with. To sleep with prostitutes. I get the decision to know if I want to stay with that or not.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Some of them might want to stay with that. You guys aren't listening to this podcast, but give your Wife who you are. Don't make her feel crazy for trying to, like, see the different versions of you. Try to decipher through you your behaviors. If she has an inclination that something's off, then something's off in your relationship. Not like, no. Well, she doesn't see clearly. If she doesn't feel connected to you, something's off. This is your. This is. This is important. And if you're willing to see it, it's like, okay, well, where. Where have I withheld parts of me without withheld the truth? Put her away so I could meet my needs in secret. If you're not willing to examine that. And she'll know based off of your responses, which we're going to talk about. Caitlin's really good at that. She'll know based off of your responses how authentic you are. Because if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to hide. But if you have something to hide, it's loud and clear. It's really loud.

[B]

Yeah, there's a couple stories, they're not funny and they're kind of funny of our past events this last year where I'll share one of them is at our Maui Lumeria three day intensive. And you know, the couple's there, they flew in. All. All the couples flew in. And the husband and wife, I think it was the last second to last day. And we pretty much just say the same thing over and over again, which is, stop lying and go to your room and tell the truth. Right. And I've shared this before, too. There was a different couple. He had been to all of our events because that was our. That was our last one, right? Yeah, that was our last one of that year. So he'd been to all the previous events. He'd even been inside of our community. On the last day of the very last event is when he came clean of his marriage. Long porn addiction. They're older than us, so I don't know how many years, probably 30 plus years, porn addiction he had, he had to go to four events and wait till the last. It was pretty much the fourth day to share it out loud. And all I'm saying at every single event, you guys, if you've been to our event, we say the same thing at every single event. It's like, stop lying and tell the truth. And I just say it in a couple different ways till finally someone goes, oh, she means stop lying. She means, tell my wife I've been looking at porn for 30 years again is.

[A]

I think for a lot of people that are in the line, which majority is men because of you're. You're hearing our story, and you're in a similar place. They heard enough of what the transformation looks like to be like, oh, well, shoot, if there's a way out.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They got enough information to be like, I'll step out of the boat because this boat's sinking. I'm dying. What you guys are describing as a new way of living, like, I actually can. I can. That's why I decided to try out Rewiring my Mind. Because I'm like, gosh, Caitlin. Caitlin looks like she's enjoying her sexuality in her life. It's not scary. I'm going to step over here. So I think when people finally get open, it's not because they hadn't realized they needed to tell the truth. It's kind of like, well, what do I do after I tell the truth? And when that's all been laid out, they're like, okay, Yep. But, yeah, continue with that.

[B]

Yeah. It's like, oh, I say this all the time. Like, oh, I'm dying. Like, what do I have to lose in trying something new? Like you said, like, the boat's already sinking. Everything's already, like, you know, shit already hit the fan. Like, what do I have to lose? You have nothing to lose. You've already really lost everything, and you actually have so much to gain, right? So this other couple is. Is coming, and the wife's like, here's why I know that my husband slept with somebody else. And this is a pastor. I'm a small church. And. And she lays out all these details in the story, right? And there's many different stories. And I'm listening, and. And the husband's claiming his question is, how do I help my wife understand that I'm not lying to her. I did not sleep with anybody. Okay? So pretty hard place for me to be in because I'm like, not hard for Caitlin, but also kind of hard because I'm like, shoot. I don't want to just be like, yeah, you're lying, because she said so. And I'm also not going to be like, well, just because you said so, you know? So I'm like, okay, give me some more details. Like, what's going on here? Tell me the stories. I hear the stories. And I'm kind of like, okay, dude, I'm not going to say his name. Like, dude, do you hear how this is pretty freaking confusing? Like, I definitely feel like you slept with somebody by hearing these stories. I'm like, are these stories true? And he's like, all those stories are true, right? And their stories of kind of like, he had to go fellowship with this woman. It was supposed to be a lot of other pastors, but then it ends up being just. Her wife doesn't know, but she calls the husband. He's just with her, has to randomly hang up. She said his voice sounded exactly like it does when they're making love. And I'm like, so? So did you stay with her in a hotel room by yourself for multiple nights? And he's like, yes, ma'.

[A]

Am.

[B]

I'm like, okay. And you're trying to tell me, like, you didn't sleep with her? He's like, no, I did not sleep with her. So we kind of dialoguing back and forth. And I'm like, you've got more to explore here. Like, you've got more going on, right? And again, he's coming into this conversation like, please tell my wife to shut up, because she's wrong. She's not intuitive, right? And then second day, they come up and he comes out of the room, he's like, I had more. You were right. I had more secrets that I needed to share. And it's like, okay, so you might initially go, my wife's crazy. She's not intuitive. She's getting it wrong. And maybe she is getting some of the details wrong.

[A]

Like, Brandon, you know why she's getting some of the details wrong? Because she doesn't have them.

[B]

Yeah, she doesn't have the details. And you're one way. One way one day and one way the next. Right? Which is another sign that we'll talk about. And at the same time, someone who's ready and willing to explore their brokenness is ready and willing to listen to their wife, even if she's wrong or got some of the details wrong, and go, whoa, I'm hearing that you feel like I did A, B, C and D, maybe. There's parts of me I'm not even seeing clearly. I'm going to dedicate the next 48 hours to doing my embodiment, journaling, going for walks, sitting outside, watching the sunset, reminding my subconscious to be open and honest, reminding my heart to be open and honest. And I'm going to actually check myself, and I'm ready to see it. How different of a response. Like, if your spouse hears that response, they're like, okay, we're getting out of this. We're getting the truth out. That's so much different. Which we can jump right into being defensive. That's so much different than. I didn't do that. I know I've been looking at porn for 15 years. I know I've done this, this and this, and I've been sleeping with the secretary, but I definitely didn't sleep with that girl. Like, shutting the door, getting defensive, getting angry, getting loud, getting dismissive, walking out of the room. That's ding, ding, ding, red flag. You 100% have more that you are hiding. 100. It does not take, like a brain expert, special scientist, anything. Like, it doesn't even take the smartest, smartest, smartest person ever to realize, like, oh, you're hiding something. I always say, like, you're only defensive about something you want to protect. Look at nature. Look at mama bears with their cubs. Look at. Look at any animal with a small cub, right? You get close, they get protective and defensive. They start to get angry. They start to get riled up because they're going to protect their young. Right, Your young cubs are your little lies that you're keeping. Your little hidden stories, your little secrets, your. Whatever name you've given them, whatever label you've put on them, that's what you're getting defensive of. Guarantee that if you are defensive, I'll say it again, you are hiding something. So if you're the betrayed spouse and your spouse is getting defensive every time you ask questions, they're still hiding something. Caitlin, how do you know that with 100% honesty? Because when you're not hiding anything, you feel. And again, this is only within your union, you feel okay and safe to be seen. Intimacy into me. You see, you're only defensive when you're trying to protect. When someone's getting close to your baby cub, oh, she's going to see me. She's going to pull that out of me. Or if she asked me the question the wrong way, like, oh, what if I slip up? What if I say something? Then she'll know the real truth. That's why you're getting defensive.

[A]

Kind of like what we already alluded to with why it takes people a long time to finally come clean, is just like, well, yeah, easy for you guys to say. For me, just to be honest. But if I'm honest, we might get divorced. We might have to sell the house. Might have to. It would be hard on the kids. So, like, in the. We'll call it the addict's mind, it's easier to think about making a game plan to continue to cover up the truth or to minimize the damage and be like, okay, yeah, no part of what you're Saying, yeah, yeah, I, I, I could spend less time on my phone or whatever. And it's like. But I'm not going to admit to the, the reality of it, because if I admit to the truth, then I think that could, could take us out. I just want you to consider that we say this all the time. Caitlin's like, because you're in union, what you have done, whether or not it gets communicated.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Just so you guys are clear, doesn't erase it. Yep. So, like, Caitlin not knowing that I sexualize everybody that I walk by, if I don't tell her that, she still feels the impact of it.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

If you've had an affair, if you've had that ongoing addiction, if you have feelings for another woman and your spouse doesn't know that, you're not protecting them. You're also not protecting your chances of a thriving relationship. Right now, how your relationship currently is, is as good as it will get. It's actually only going to get worse. And I think a lot of women, sadly, when they know something's wrong, they don't have the courage to stand up for themselves, so they have to let a part of themselves die. Because if you know that something's being kept from you, you have the choice to either draw the line in the sand and, like, speak up for yourself, move out, start over, or you have to let a part of yourself die where you're like, you know what? I know he's keeping things for me. I know he goes out with the guys. I don't know what they do. I'm just gonna pretend that I'm gonna play dumb. I'm gonna play dumb, like, aloof, like, I don't know what's going on. That comes at a cost, too. So what we're trying to get you guys to see. And I can hear the digital light bulbs going on where it's like, if you were willing to believe in the path forward, you'd be willing to be honest. So this isn't about. You're only dishonest because you don't think it's going to actually benefit you or the relationship. And I'm telling you, you're dying. If you're living a life of lies, there's not much left. There's not much of you left. There's not much of your relationship left. And because we exist in this relational world, it's a very isolating place to live in when you're living that double life. So I think for us, that's one of the biggest things to look for Is that double life? And I think that's. We're not trying to give like pastors a bad rap. It's just like that's. We were on the. I was on the ministry track. I was a missionary. That's how we met was in pastoral, nonprofit ministries. Then I stepped into being the child's pastor, children's pastor. And I lived a double life because I fundamentally was dishonest with myself because I thought I had to be flawless, sinless. This perception I had of what it meant to be a pastor, to be able to lead others. So there was that part of me, and then Caitlin is bringing up these character flaws or things where I'm not following through on where I'm dishonest. I'm like, stop. I am Pastor Brandon. You can't treat me that way. Otherwise I'd have to let go of this identity to take to heart what you're bringing to the table. And that could cost me my identity in the community. Our tiny salary of. From our nonprofit, that was barely enough to live on, but that I would have to let go of my acceptance if. And my identity to actually take a second to listen to what you have to say. So one of those signs that your spouse is lying is you can clearly see, wow, you are one version out there in the world and I get a different version of you at home. Which means there's not a congruence. Congruency to who they are at their core.

[B]

They're burnt out, pretending. That's why they different at home.

[A]

They're acting. They're paid actors, they're professional actors because they're. They are. Which again, comes back to approval seeking behavior, trying to be what you think the world needs you to be, which you end up being what the world. You don't. You can't be anything to anybody. So if you see your spouse able to put on a show, that's a massive red flag that there are things that they are keeping from you and from others. Because if they can trick everybody else that they're a connected, loving husband. And when you guys show up to church together and they've got their hand on your hand, they greet everybody around them. But then when you get in the car to leave, they're shutting you down. They don't want to spend time with you, they're not happy, they're not connected. It's kind of like. But nobody, nobody would know because they're living that double life. And that's how somebody in addiction lives and survives is they have to shut down Part of them go into denial, compartmentalize everything in their life, because if they lived in reality and in the present moment, it would be too. Too painful. Be too painful to be like, this is who I am. This is who I am all the time. You gotta. No, I'll be this person here. This person here. Because at least I can put on. I can change clothes enough where I'm confused at who I am. I've told myself so many different stories about who I am that I have an excuse waiting for me at every door. It's like, oh, okay, well, Caitlin wants to know the honest truth about me. Okay, I'm gonna open this door. Oop. I'm actually a pastor. I don't tell. I don't lie. Well, you're my husband.

[B]

Whoop.

[A]

Sorry, I gotta go to work. I'm actually a businessman. So you can put on all these hats that fuel the double life so that every turn, you don't have to face reality, you don't have to face yourself, because you're hiding behind something you're not. And it's all a facade, and it will come crashing down very soon.

[B]

Yeah. Our first counselor who did end up kicking us out, he did have a lot of good golden nuggets in the beginning. He's actually said that anyone who lives with a sexual addiction.

[A]

I wonder if he listens to the podcast.

[B]

Anyone who lives with a sexual addiction you love, if you listen, has a double life. They have to have a double life. So that's why. Why do we know that that would be a sign that your spouse is lying to you? If they live a double life is because to live an addiction, you have to create a double life. That's how you cope. It's a coping mechanism. Because you actually don't feel good about the addiction. You don't feel good about how you're acting. And. And so you have to have this alternate version of you that you do feel good about. So then you kind of, you know, in. In the church religious world, it's like, you know, the good and evil side of you. Right. The devil. And then, like, the Holy Spirit side of you, of course. And so you have this side of you that you can kind of. Okay, now step into this side. Because I feel good being him. Right. But you can't really sustain that because that's not your true self either. It's still this pretend show version of you that you're trying to remember. If you have to, try to do anything, if you have to try to convince, try to be Somebody that's not who you are. And then you have this other side that you step into, which is the side where you're acting out in an addiction, Whatever the addiction may be, it's probably a concoction of addiction. So you have these two personalities who sees that? Your spouse sees that. Your spouse is probably the only person who sees that, which is why we talked about this in a different episode. This is why the betrayed spouse feels a little crazy, because they've actually been living with two different people, but they've united their. Their soul with this person and the two different people that the. The spouse has been acting out. Addiction is playing is not even their true self, neither of them. So there's actually like a third person here in the room who is the real. Yeah, you. You haven't even met that person yet. That's the real true core person who we're go. You know, that's what all of our frameworks to lead back to coming back home to yourself.

[A]

That was the exact experience I had coming. Cleaning that process. I was like, I actually don't know who. I don't know what it feels like to live from the authentic me, where I'm not having to, like, balance these different things, but actually just living from authenticity was. Was a very foreign.

[B]

You're rediscovering who you actually are. Which is why in our framework inside of our. Our community, we have. You look at your childhood because you started out as your core self, right? And then there was trauma, there was woundings, there was exposure. Exposure. There was choices that were made, and you lost touch with yourself. You probably even created a double personality from a young age, right? And that we could get into psychological terms for this, you know, and really, everything. You've already heard this, us say this, everything is healable. You have to want that and choose that. If you have a double personality, no big deal. Like, we don't have to label you as schizophrenic, as a psycho, as anything. It's like most of the world is walking around with a double personality. So most of the world can choose to heal. There's. Not everybody will. Not everybody will choose to heal. And there are. Those of you who are listening are like, yep, I'm ready to heal. And you can heal. Having a double life. How do I know that? Because I watched my husband go from being a narcissist. I'm using air quotes. If you're not watching us from being a pathological liar, from having this double personality to being a whole vibrant, alive, Human being, fully himself, fully here, fully with me, fully In Union, you 100% can heal your double life, which.

[A]

That's something we talk about when we talk about the four hours from the previous episode. And like, re your spouse being. I don't know if that was the previous first one of this season.

[B]

Lots of episodes.

[A]

Lots of episodes. But when we talk about going through and rewiring your mind, the reason that process is so important is I saw the ways when I. When I, like, opened up my subconscious to see how I sexualized other women, all my memories, I begin to see the ways I lied to myself or the stories I told myself that prevented me from seeing it as dishonesty or as my responsibility. And the reason that Caitlin was like, I trust him or like, I know what my husband walked through is she literally watched me dissect the lies I created that were the foundation of my

[B]

life with willingness, no more defense.

[A]

She also heard me share things that were so uncomfortable to share that it's kind of like, oh, like me being surprised. She saw me become surprised by my own wiring. And I think that when couples talk about diving into the story, it's like, I don't want to hear the details. The betrayed spouse might not want to. It's like, it's still real. And like, how are you ever going to trust the man that we'll call him a psycho, pathological liar? You're going to trust that man if he just went away on a weekend with. On a retreat and now you trust him and you think that he's. You don't even know what he went through. You don't even know how he arrived to the other side. So I think that when there's been lies, it's very fruitful for you to see your spouse who lied wrestle with what that produced in them. Because when they wrestle with it, they begin to see, wow, I thought I was lying to protect others and to protect myself. And you're like, holy crap. Like, these lies produce this in me. These lies led me to believe this, led me to be powerless in this place in my life, led me to hate myself, led me to judge women, led me to get out of shape. Like, all these things, they begin to see and, like, my whole life's been a lie. And when you see your spouse, when Caitlyn Sami go through that, she's like, we're getting somewhere. Because he's seeing. Like, I'm not just trying to convince you. I want you to live a certain way. I want you to see it for yourself. And when dishonesty is at the foundation of everything, it's because we've tried to play the game of life on principles that aren't real. We're trying to move chess pieces so that the real us can't be seen. The only you is the real you. And that's sobering. There is nothing that you do or say that is not real, that is not reality. So when you begin to look at it and see it and explore it, that's what changes you. That's what allows you to make the changes that we talk about in this podcast. Because until you're willing to see it and your spouse can see it too, then it's like, why would I trust you? How would. You haven't even looked at it yourself. You haven't been willing to face what you built.

[B]

If you're saying, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to hear all the details, right? Or if you're saying, I don't want to share all the details, that's really just the smallest component of this. Just because you're not gonna say it out loud or you're not gonna hear all of the details doesn't mean it didn't happen. It doesn't mean it isn't felt. It doesn't mean it doesn't have an impact on the relationship. So skipping that part is actually a disservice to your healing. I always like to say this inside of our community. This is like, you know, see this as like a. A detective case, right? So you go from defensiveness, you go into willingness, you go into curiosity. Brandon used to use this word all the time. He developed a curiosity to find himself, to rediscover how he got to where he was, where he had this split personality, had all this addiction, had all of this denial, all of these different lies he had told himself. How did he get himself to this world? Right? There's a curiosity to see it and then a curiosity to heal and a curiosity as to what he was creating to move forward. So curiosity is the opposite of defensiveness. When your spouse is in defensiveness, they're still in denial and they're still hiding. When they move into curiosity, that means they are open to healing and are healing. Right? And so if you're just automatically like, I don't want to hear all the details, cuz it's so painful. Like, I hear you, I do. As a spouse who heard all of the details, there was not a single night that I thought that that was fun yet now what I'VE created on the other side. I've said this in another episode. I would do that over again, over and over and over.

[A]

What was it like as a spouse when I didn't want to see the. I didn't want to share the details. I didn't want to. I didn't want to know the details.

[B]

Like, that's torment.

[A]

That's. You catch me that. Like, you, that night you described 2019. You catch me in the initial eyes, and you're like, well, what else? And like, I don't know. And some of you have heard that. I don't know.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Is that healing?

[B]

Right?

[A]

No. Caitlyn's like, you don't know what else? Like, no, I don't know. Yeah, you want to know the details, right? What did you do? I don't know.

[B]

Right?

[A]

I don't know. I looked at. I forgot. I tried to forget. I don't know who I. I don't know who. That's not healing.

[B]

No. That's not freedom, and it's not. You're not knowing the details because you're having some sort of confessional experience. It's not like, tell me all the details right now, like waterboarding you for the details, and you're gonna have this confession experience. You have to make the switch to like. It's not like, okay, I'm a good boy. So now I do my confession time. It's. I'm curious. Why are we sharing all the details with each other? Why is the betrayed spouse. Am I restraining? Receiving, hearing, knowing? Well, first of all, you're hearing for the first time what you've actually always felt and known. So you're finally just getting words to what's been going on in your relationship the whole time. To not hear the full details does not mean it didn't happen. It just means you don't know. And why do you want to live in a marriage where you don't know what happened to you? What happened to your union, the destruction of it? When you understand what happened, you're getting core facts, clues, elements as a detective with curiosity that help you solve the puzzle, to help you solve the mystery. This is how you see clearly together. Oh, this is how you got to where you were. Oh, this is how you told me these stories. Oh, this is what you did. This is where you learned it. This is where you picked up on it. Here's the patterns. Oh, you had this happen to you when you were a child. Then you were exposed to this. Your mother acted this way. There was a measurement and triangulation. So then you went to these porn videos. So then you outleted in these relationships. You start to see the whole process. And now it's not this big thing that makes no sense. It's not like, oh, how did I get here? Why am I the way I am? Woe is me. I'm so bad. I'm fundamentally flawed. I've got something wrong with me. It's like it all starts to make sense. It's a big, giant puzzle. So you're like, this isn't just like a confession and a dumping and a like, torture session to get the truth out. It's a puzzle piece that you're piece by piece, finally putting together so you can see. See your whole picture clearly. I always say that seeing clearly is healing clearly. You can't heal if you can't see. You have to see what shaped you, what created you so that you can go, oh, whoa, I'm healing that. I'm creating a new pathway, I'm creating a new journey. I'm creating a new outcome that I'm moving into, that I'm creating with my spouse. I know where I'm coming from, and I know where I'm going to.

[A]

One of the other signs that you can look for so that. That first one we just hammered home for, like 20 minutes for you, which is the double life. And then why the double life exists. Another practical one, when you're looking at your spouse and thinking, like, are they being. Are they living an honest life? Is when there's massive amounts of screen time and we'll call it phone phone addiction or phone dependency or video games, screens, sports, sports. When there's a life that's being lived vicariously through somebody else or with large amounts of entertainment and dissociation. So dissociation is essentially the means in which we try to separate from our. The real word world to attach to another one. So if you witness your spouse living the majority of their day on their phone, on social media, on all these things, then, you know, man, they're living. They're living this. This life that's. That's separated from reality. The reason Caitlin had an intuition or thoughts that, like, Brandon's doing stuff on his phone because I spent copious amounts on my phone, I actually chose my phone instead of her.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So many times. And I was lying about being on my phone. Right. That's a big one. I was lying about playing video games. But then that's like, okay, if he's lying about video games, what else are you lying about.

[B]

So true.

[A]

So if you see your spouse, like, need their phone to survive their life, then they have lost a grip on how to use their phone or their technology around them in a way that's constructive and advantageous to your relationship. So I would say you press the buttons a few times about, like, so tell me, like, what do you do on social media? What comes up for you? And then you wait for a response. If, like, oh, yeah, I am on my phone a lot. I use it for work and I'm taking care of these things. Like, tell me more what you were. If that's not the response. If it's. What do you mean? Why am I on social media? Back off. Oh, ding, ding, ding. There's more there. Whether it's a conversation with another woman, it's a porn site, it's some raunchy accounts they follow. It's something they've agreed to. Now, that's a. That's a huge one. I'm going to go on this for a second. Is a lot of men, especially, like, we'll go for the spirit in the spiritual religious world, they commit to one thing. I said to Caleb so many times, I won't get on my phone after you go to bed. And I got on my phone every night. I committed to the things that made her feel safe.

[B]

True.

[A]

Verbally, verbally, verbally commit. The issue was, once I broke that, I knew it was like, kind of too late to then be honest. I'm like, I already messed it up, so I got to keep messing it up. And so a lot of people dig their, dig their grave because, like, they've committed. I won't go do these things. I won't do this. I won't do this. Now they've done so much of it. The guilt and the shame has gotten so big. Like, how would I tell her now?

[B]

You know this saying, like, really nothing Good happens past 10pm I really think that really nothing good happens past, like 20, 30 minutes on social media. Like, what else do you need to do after 20 to 30? Like, we work like social media is. That's how you're going to find this podcast. That's how you find our events. That's how you find our community. That's how you watch our videos. That's how I share motherhood thoughts. So we're on there actually as creators, right? Which anybody. I used to tell Brandon this all, all the time. He hated it. He got defensive back before 2019. I said, if you're not creating on social media, get off social media, you're automatically consumer. You cannot be a creator and a consumer. How do you know if you're a creator or consumer? Look at your screen time as creators on social media. Our screen time on social media is like 20 to 30 minutes. I'm literally making posts on there. I'm posting stuff on my stories, I'm responding to your guys's messages, I'm interacting with people and I have a small amount of stories that I watch and that I engage with that are my real, real life friends. Like real people that I connect with. Right. I'm literally, I'm not on there scrolling, I'm not on there just endlessly watching videos. My screen time is so small. And you might be again you. Everyone always goes, well, that's so extreme. It's like, no, it's a life giving place to me. It is not a dream to me. Nothing sexual is bombarding me there. Nothing negative is bombarding me there. Nothing outrageous isn't bombarding me there. Like, it's literally a place for me to create and for me to connect. That's actually really the core beauty of what social media is. And once you cross over 30 minutes and you're getting to an hour, two hours on social media, it's really the same thing as staying up past. That's really like the same thing as staying up till 5am like you're just gonna find yourself doing things you don't want to do on there because you've essentially lost control. And this has, this has everything to do with addiction and nothing to do with sexual addiction. Like if you're a woman on there, that's just, we, we interviewed a couple on, on a podcast season three. And you know, the, the most triggering part for them was when we said give up, give up social media, give up consumption. Because that was a hot topic for both of them. Even for the wife who was not acting out in sexual betrayal. Because it's a form of dissociation, it's a form of addiction, it's a form of coping. And when you get into those lengthier times on social media, you are leaving like Brandon said, the reality which you actually don't really like and is escaping into one that you're pretending that you do. Like, cut out all that extra time and figure out what in life you do love and figure out how to go do that instead. Right. And I want to piggyback off the line concept. If you're lying, how do you know your spouse is lying? If your spouse is lying about stupid things like Somebody else on season three podcast. This is how they knew their spouse was lying. Their spouse was like lying about what even was it? It was like, I don't even know. It's normally like food related or video game related. I think it was like, oh, he was just looking up. You guys will remember this if you listen to season three. He was looking up like what to do because he had like tailbone pain or something.

[A]

Yeah. And shemorrhoids or something.

[B]

Yeah. And he, he was supposed to always ask before he looked up something online and she was like, could see that he was looking up something. But he lied and said he hadn't gotten on his phone. He didn't even do anything inappropriate on his phone. But he was lying about that. Why? I challenged them and said he was hiding and lying more. I said, I told them, I said, if you're lying about stupid things, you're lying about bigger things. He said, no, he wasn't. He emailed later back after we did that podcast and said, I need to inform you that I actually was lying about way more. He said, I even went and rewatched that podcast. Can't believe I even said I wasn't lying about more. So if you're lying about stupid things, you're lying about bigger things. If your spouse is lying to you about stupid things like where they went, what they ate, what, what video games. Like I'm in an outbreak on this story because it's funny and this is, this is before 2019. This is a video game story. This is how I knew he was lying to me more. I had gone to a friend's wedding at the time. Again, we got married young. So we're still in that 19 year old phase and all of our friends were still getting married from high school. I remember the first two years of our marriage went to a lot of weddings. I was in this wedding. So as a bridesmaid. So I fly, I flew from Idaho to Oregon. Brandon stayed at home and it was just a really quick trip. We didn't need to go together. He had communicated to me we'd go together. Now we'd go together because we were disconnected. We didn't really like each other. We were pretending we did. So he had communicated. It was already like a set thing in our marriage that he did not play. He was not going to play video games, right? He was not.

[A]

Because mommy had mean rules. Akilah actually bought me an Xbox from a garage sale one time when we were married. It's because if I played video games, it Was for hours and hours and hours. And it became something that took over my life. So I had again, yes, I don't want to play video games because it destroys me. So it's not like, no more video games. Like, we decided video games was not healthy for our relationship. Mind you, Caitlin wasn't playing Candy crush on her phone.

[B]

Nope. I didn't play any video games. I have never played video games in my. I find it to be one of the most unattractive things a human could do. Like, if you guys are playing video games on your phone. Stop. Stop it. Stop. So it's a mutual agreement. We neither of us are playing video games. And I go, I'm. I'm staying with my family and going to the wedding. I come home, and my dad's laying on the couch playing a video game on his phone, and I'm like, hmm, who are you playing video games with? He's like, your husband, maybe? I didn't even ask. He probably just said, hey, I'm playing video games with you, with Brandon. I'm like, oh, really? Video games? So I go to the back room, and I. I tell my dad the whole thing. Like, I'm just like, watch. This is going be hilarious. I go, hilarious. And I'm angry, furious. I go to the back room. I call Brandon, hey, babe, what you up to? This is, like, classic, like, movie story, right? And he's just sitting there. Oh. Just laying, resting. I forget what he even said. Even better. Told me he was cleaning the house, probably. I'm like, really flash the camera over to my dad, because my dad said, you guys are playing video games together. Right? So again, we end up going to counseling for this, of course, and we get some sort of band aid answer and band aid fix. At that moment, I didn't know the gravity of what was going on, but I was like, well, if you're willing to lie, if you're willing to lie about something that stupid, like, literally that stupid video game use, you are lying about much deeper and much profound things. So if you are trying to figure out if you're a spouse is still lying, still keeping secrets from you, if they're lying about stupid things, they're lying

[A]

about big things, which leads to a few other things that may be happening if your spouse is being dishonest. We wanted to. To give you guys in this episode is if there's a baseline, just disconnection in the relationship, then there. There's something that's not known about each other, and that's kind of what we Cover at the beginning. But if there's no connection, then there's no intimacy. Then you don't know the soul of. Of your partner. So if you're connected, if. If you're willing to, like, say your spouse isn't willing to be intimate with you emotionally, sexually, spiritually, like, keep you at a distance, then it's just clear that there's parts of them that they're withholding from you. Another piece of that is them staying busy.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So that can look like working, volunteering, trying to avoid time with you. Staying busy on their phone. Staying busy.

[B]

It could even be busy with good things.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Church activities, community support, kids, sports.

[A]

Because if we can just be busy for the next decade, then I don't ever have to face all the mess I've been that I've created under the table. So staying busy is a strategy to. To prevent having to face the reality, to prevent you asking questions or getting curious, like, oh, why is he acting funny? It's like, we're just so busy, we hardly see each other, so you get lost in the stories of your head. And it's my strategy to stay so busy that. Why. How can you question me if I'm not even around you? So that's another very, very common thing. And I think that another one we give you is. So you've got no connection. The defensiveness, staying busy and then blame. Blame's a huge one. So many times when Caitlin would ask me questions, I'd blame her for being insecure. I actually forgot about that. Like, no, baby, this is just, like, you're kind of feeling insecure about this, but, like, no, there's nothing here. This is about you needing to kind of heal from that back there. But what happened years ago, like, kind of like, stop asking me about that. You're. You're needing to take a look at you. Let's take the focus off of me. Let's look at you. And blame is such a. A powerful strategy because it. She probably. She did feel some insecurity. She's like, oh, you're right. Like, maybe that's what it is. So it's that shift of focus if I can blame you. Or I'll be like, hey, you said you were gonna do this and then this and have like, oh, yeah, I was late because of this. This happened, this excuse. It's excuses. It's blame. It's. It's the stories that take the responsibility off of you, and it. It makes you feel silly for asking the question, but that's a sign that there's dishonesty when. When pressed, blame comes out. Well, oh, yeah, that was. I wasn't. I wasn't, like, talking to her for that long. She. It was somebody at work that talked to me, and. And then she. She sat down and we ate lunch together. It's like, I didn't eat lunch with her. Like, wait, wait, what? Like, it was her. She messaged me. This website came up. I didn't go look at porn. Po to me. I didn't do that. So they can lie to your face because they're blaming somebody else. So listen to that in the language of, I didn't do that. This happened to me. I didn't choose that. I just happened. It just happened to be there. These are victim words. These are things where everybody else is to blame. If they're blaming you and blaming others, they're lying. Pay attention.

[B]

And even I want to add this caveat because there's many layers to lying. And if your spouse has even done a polygraph, you've even done what you call a therapeutic disorder disclosure. You've even done a time where you've shared what you say is the full truth. So let's just say you're in that situation, right, where it's like your spouse has actually shared the truth with you or what they're saying is the truth. If they're acting out in any of these ways, they did not share the full truth with you. Yeah, because dishonesty leads to disconnection. So if there is any sort of disconnection, if there's any of these signs, they're living a double life. They have copious amounts of screen time. They get. Get super defensive. They start blaming you. They start shutting down. They're not curious. They're not open to looking at the whole process. They're not open to having conversations with you. I don't care if they did a polygraph. I don't care if they did a therapeutic disclosure. I don't even care about those things. I don't think that those are necessary to your healing. I don't think that those are even fruitful or beneficial. Side note, I don't care if they told you that it's the full truth. You cannot be living in a reality where you've shared the full truth and still be acting out in defensiveness. Still be, like, staring at your screen. Still be blaming, still be disconnected. If you've actually decided to open up and choose into intimacy, into me, you see, yes, you're still going to be healing. You're not like, perfect overnight. None of us are perfect overnight yet. You're going to drop all of this again. I know this because I experienced this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Brandon went from shutting me down, blaming me, pointing the finger at everyone else, being defensive, being angry, avoiding conversations, trying to go to bed early, whatever the strategy was, he went from that to being eager, willing, and curious. And it was overnight because he decided, whoa, I'm gonna stop telling myself stories, I'm gonna stop pretending, I'm gonna stop playing games, and I'm actually finally, for the first time, gonna get radically honest.

[A]

One more story from. From our Maui intensive we did last year was, there was a gentleman there. This is so important when it comes to being honest is he was broken from all of his lies. So he was weeping and discovering these multiple affairs he had already shared, and then he was remembering the details of more, but he was broken, weeping. It's unclear if their marriage was even going to stay together, but he barely made it. Barely made it there. So distraught by his own actions that it broke him. He finally saw the house of cards, finally fell down. If your spouse has been caught lying and you haven't seen them break, then they actually haven't let the entire system that allows them to continue lying get removed. So how do you know if you're structure breaking? Yeah. So these layers of lying, like, if one lie has been discovered, that tip of the iceberg, until they've actually, like, seen that this has destroyed their life and destroyed their relationship, they still haven't got it out. They still haven't come clean to themselves and come clean to you. Because somebody that realizes that their entire life is a lie is a little unwell with that, is willing to weep, is willing to break, is willing to make this their sole focus, blames nobody else. They might not have every answer, but they, like, I want to know that. Curiosity. It's like when I realized how dishonest my entire life was, it was like. It broke me. Like, I cried, I sat with myself, I journaled. I made this my focus. So if you got caught lying and now you're trying to prove to your wife that things are good, they aren't good, because until you break, things aren't good.

[B]

Yeah. I want to share one last story on connection, because it just came up last night, actually. And I think it's so pertinent because culture has really set the bar so low for what you can create in your marriage, for connection in your marriage. Right. And there's this couple. They're actually quite famous, and they released a book together. And they had gone through betrayal with affairs and made it to what they consider the other side. You know, it's just a short little clip of the. The wife, you know, doing her self care, which included her glass of wine, laptop that she's watching something on, and a giant big screen TV that she's watching something on. Right. And then the only self care piece in my opinion was the red light that was on her. And so many things that I saw in this video that I was like, whoa. Like this is what a healthy, connected marriage is, is for people. The red flags were. First of all, they were in completely separate spaces. He came when he was videoing from a downstairs area. They're actually disconnected. They are not connected in the same room in the same place. If you came over to our house at any time, please don't. But if you came over to our house at any time and our kids are in bed, you don't find Brandon and I in opposite spaces of the house. You don't find Brandon doing one thing with like three different screens and me taking my self care time way over here in this separate area. Like, that is not a connected union. If you're not so excited to see your spouse connect with your spouse, look in their eyes, have a conversation, you have some room to grow and develop. And that's exciting. Yeah, that's so amazing. Like how amazing that we actually get to love the one we united our soul with. Like, isn't that incredible? That's not bad news. If you're calling connection. We do our, our separate lives in separate rooms and we are like looking at 14 different screens. Like, that's not self care, that's not connection. That's not union in your marriage. That's not intimacy. That's just maybe you healed from something yet you're not in love, you're not best friends. And there's even more connecting to go. The dishonesty leads to the disconnection. But there's so much connection that can be created. So much joy, so much life, so much vibrancy, so much health that can be created. When you first decide you're not gonna lie, you're gonna be fully honest, you're gonna track through and make it to the other side. And the other side, you guys, is so good. It's not that. It's not that I watch 14 different things or. It's not that I have my laptop open and my screen open. You guys already know I don't have a tv. It's not that we're in separate rooms. It's that we love each other.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's that we love being together. It's that every moment we enjoy as a family, as a couple with our community outside, like, life is so, so good. You don't have to stop at good enough. The bar is not low. And it's not because we're gonna climb the ladder. It's because we believe in something so good that we're gonna keep going till it actually feels so aspect of our life so good.

[A]

If you're a couple that's like, we're ready, ready to kind of break through the, the barriers. Right now. We're just a couple weeks away from our two week or two day. You can come two weeks. Our two day workshop in San Diego. It's August 14th and 15th. You can see right below here how you can sign up. You can sign up virtually or come and be in person with us there. If there's still tickets left. So make sure to check if the page is active, there are tickets available. You can also, if you need support today, you don't want to wait all the way to August. You can also apply to be a part of our couples community where we do weekly coaching. We have our Grounded Intimacy program. All the step by step work that we talk about in the podcast. If you're looking to take a step further, you can see that in the show notes. We'd be honored to walk with you in that capacity and we look forward to seeing you next week for our season finale for season four. Thank you.

[B]

And your book.

[A]

Oh, I also wrote a book.

[B]

No big deal.

[A]

Yeah. SevenStepsBook.com we're going to be doing a big launch for the book.

[B]

Should be out very soon by the time this releases.

[A]

Yep. You can get all the [e-mail] or take a look at the show notes. Look forward to sharing that with.