When Is Divorce Your Only Option?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "When Is Divorce Your Only Option?"

The Grounded Union Podcast – Brandon & Caitlin Doerksen
Date: May 30, 2026 | Episode: Season 4, Episode 1

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode addresses a critical and often agonizing question: When is divorce the only option for a marriage in crisis, especially after betrayal or addiction? Brandon and Caitlin draw from their own near-divorce experience to craft a candid conversation about the real predictors of genuine change versus signs that it may be healthiest to walk away. Their goal is to offer listeners both clarity and specific tools for discernment, moving beyond conventional "check the box" advice toward actionable pathways for relationship healing (or ending).

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Problem with "Going Through the Motions"

• Brandon and Caitlin stress that seeing a counselor, reading books, or listening to podcasts won't fix a marriage unless actual, concrete behavioral change happens.
• Brandon: “Just going to a counselor, just even listening to these podcasts does not automatically produce change or healing in your life.” (01:37)
• Many couples are stuck in a loop: wanting to change but not knowing how, or lacking the courage to enact the needed steps.

2. Four Predictors of Real Change

Predictor 1: Relentless Honesty & Full Disclosure

• The betraying partner must leave the trap of denial and become ruthlessly honest with themselves and their spouse: all lies, omissions, betrayals must come to light.
• “If [your partner is] unwilling to see the impact of the actions, then there is no rebuilding. If they want to live in denial in fairyland that this never happened... there is no marriage on the other side. Divorce is the best option.” – Brandon (04:33)
• Partial truths or "I don’t know" responses are warning signs of lack of change.
• Quote: “Secrets do not make me an honest person.” – Caitlin (08:54)

Predictor 2: Eliminating All Distractions & Entertainment

• Real change requires getting off all screens and digital entertainment, even “clean” content, to make space for self-reflection and connection. No TV, no YouTube, no podcasts—total digital detox.
• “Marriage in crisis needs still water. It needs the chaos to settle so that you guys can actually look together and say, what is it we're healing from?" – Brandon (11:09)
• Distraction is usually a form of numbing; removing it allows real emotions to surface.
• Quote: “Is it really that extreme to suggest that you remove all entertainment... when A, you probably hate your life and B, your marriage is falling apart?” – Caitlin (13:00)

Predictor 3: Embodiment—Getting Into Your Body

• Authentic change demands daily practices that help you feel emotions again: time in nature, walking, somatic (body-related) exercises, breathwork, and mindfulness.
• “You might not initially feel better. You might feel actually way worse. You might feel like, whoa, why the heck did I listen to these people? Great, that's a great sign you're feeling again.” – Caitlin (24:38)
• These practices retrain the nervous system to handle discomfort and build capacity for healthy engagement.
• Practical advice: Win the first 10 minutes of the day with an embodiment or mindfulness practice; repeat at night.

Predictor 4: Rewiring the Brain—Taking Ownership of Inner World

• The betrayer must commit to systematic mental rewiring, confronting and redirecting sexualized memories, emotional patterns, and destructive associations.
• The Four Rs Method: Recognize, Regulate, Release, Replace (see timestamped example at 41:08).
  • Recognize the thought or memory.
  • Regulate with breath/movement.
  • Release through verbal acknowledgement.
  • Replace with truth and presence.
• Willingness to share this process openly each day is essential for true repair.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

On Extreme Honesty

“How can you hold secrets and be an honest and truthful person? You cannot. You literally cannot.”
— Caitlin, 07:16

On “Extreme” Measures for Change

“Society has made tv, technology, phones so extreme. We are over consumers... It’s going to feel extreme to remove those categories from your life yet... you’re going to realize, ‘Oh, I finally get my life back.’”
— Caitlin, 13:43

On Embodiment and Emotional Awakening

“You become a numbed out, dissociated, disembodied person. You are not in your body. ... When you come back home to your body, you’re initially excruciatingly uncomfortable, yet the reward is you teach yourself what to do with discomfort in a healthy way.”
— Caitlin, 24:21

On Rewiring and Full Ownership

“I want to openly share that process with my spouse, because they deserve to know.”
— Brandon, 32:39

“You cannot recreate a new marriage with the same old brain.”
— Caitlin, 51:57

On Polyamory vs. Monogamy

“If you want to stay monkey brain, we can’t help you. ... We are pro-union, pro-love, pro-intimacy. ... If your vision is a marriage union that’s satisfying, then it’s time to rewire the brain.”
— Brandon, 47:53

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:07] – First predictor: Relentless honesty explained
• [09:14] – Second predictor: Digital detox and its necessity
• [17:01] – Practical steps for removing entertainment and how that transforms daily life
• [21:24] – Third predictor: What embodiment looks like in healing
• [28:58] – Fourth predictor: Rewiring the brain and sexual attraction
• [38:30] – The Four Rs method for practical brain rewiring
• [55:35] – The three response categories: A) Owning it (even messy), B) Passive/no real action, C) Unwilling to change
• [63:03] – When divorce is the only option; "wait and see" vs. acceptance of "tapped out" partner

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The Three Types of Responses in Crisis Marriages

1. Full Ownership (Still Messy, But Active Commitment)

• The spouse owning the mess, sharing openly, and taking daily action is on the path to true change.
• This often involves excruciating, but temporary, discomfort.

2. Passive Stagnation (Talk But No Consistent Action)

• The “I want to change, but nothing’s happening” partner drags the relationship through inertia.
• “You change when you make changes,” Caitlin asserts. Mere intention or enrollment in therapy/reading/“checking boxes” is not enough.

3. Refusal or Resistance (“Tapped Out” Partner)

• The betraying spouse doesn’t want to change, minimizes, or blatantly refuses to act.
• “After severe betrayal, you have to ask, why are you choosing to stay?” – Brandon (63:03)
• Divorce, they argue, is absolutely a valid and sometimes necessary response for both partners’ health, sanity, and for the modeling of healthy boundaries for children.

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Actionable Takeaways

• Assess your marriage according to the four predictors of change.
• If your spouse is meeting all four, healing and restoration are truly possible, but only through daily concrete actions—not just words.
• If your spouse is unwilling or only passively talking, “you are already in pain, and you were never getting out of that pain. ... This is painful, and you’re getting out of it.” (Caitlin, 54:00)
• Draw boundaries and recognize when enduring a connection is actually perpetuating harm.
• “Divorce becomes your only option when the spouse digs in their heels that ‘I’m not changing.’” (Brandon, 63:03)

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Memorable & Impactful Quotes

• “This is not about shaming anyone; it’s about choosing what kind of marriage and legacy you want to create.” – Brandon (37:18)
• “If you do not make changes, you do not change.” – Caitlin (61:04)

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For Listeners in Crisis

• Brandon and Caitlin encourage couples on the brink to use this framework to evaluate their relationship honestly and take decisive, difficult, but ultimately life-giving action.
• For further practical help, they reference their upcoming workshops, online community, and forthcoming book.

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Conclusion:
This episode cuts through wishful thinking and superficial fixes with a courageous call to radical honesty, real action, and embodiment in the healing process. For those unsure whether to stay or go, the criteria and examples offered will bring much-needed clarity and empowerment, no matter how painful or difficult the next step may be.

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For further resources and embodiment tools, visit the podcast’s show notes, community app, and upcoming workshops.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome back to season four of the podcast. We're back on the couch. We've got a lot of really pressing topics we want to talk with you about on this season. So we're going to give you nine more episodes releasing every week. Today's episode's about when divorce feels like the only option. And I know for a lot of you, you've been in crisis, you've been in trauma for a long time, and we want to give you some perspectives on, we call them the predictors of change. We talk about that in our app, our couples program. What you can look for when your spouse says, I'm ready to change. Are they actually doing the stuff or are they actually just dragging you along? Because for some of you, divorce might be the only option. And we want to give you some a very clear lens to know if you're crazy and you're not actually crazy. If you've been through betrayal, you've been put through the ringer. We want to give you a lens and a perspective to give you clarity to know, okay, he's saying he wants to change or she's saying she wants to change. Rebuild trust. What does that look like in real actions and not just being drug for another decade when you could have maybe stepped away from the marriage? It's not easy to do that and gained your sanity back. So we're gonna talk about what that rebuilding phase would look like, what real action, real concrete commitment looks like to a marriage that's in crisis.

[B]

Because oftentimes both couples or both spouses in the relationship truly do want to change. And right now, culturally, there's not a lot of tools to equip couples in crisis to make it all the way to the other side. So people find themselves kind of what I call going through the motions. Like, okay, we're in crisis, so we will read this book about this crisis situation that we're in, or we will go see this counselor or we'll go tell our pastor. And none of those things are negative in and of themselves. And at the same time, you can almost get into this straight dried where you're just checking the boxes, you're just going through the motions. Because just going to a counselor, just even listening to these podcasts does not automatically produce change or healing in your life. If you only listen to these and you don't implement anything that we say or teach, then there is no change. You're only listening, you're not implementing. Same with going to the counselor. If you go and see a counselor for a year, which A lot of people find themselves doing. And either your counselor doesn't give you any tools to implement, or you don't implement any of the tools your counselor gave you. Or better yet, what happens most of the time, you get tools from your counselor that you try to implement, and you still find yourself not actually being able to change and heal and grow. So there's this tension of, I do actually want to change, and yet I just don't know what steps to take to change. So that's exactly what we're going to talk about in this episode. We will dive into the caveat of if you are saying you want to change, but you have a lot of passivity, or if you're just flat out saying, like, leave me alone, I'm not going to change, I'm not going to heal. You know, those are two other separate categories we will touch on. Mainly, we're going to speak to those of you who actually want to change and heal and grow and just are looking for the right steps and tools to literally make it to the other side to see the change you want to see in your marriage.

[A]

One of the the first steps in the seven steps that we teach, that I'm writing in my book, that's almost done, that we teach in our program, that we teach in our workshops, the first step to get into a state of change that says to your spouse that you've betrayed, or if you've gotten caught in an addiction, an affair, an emotional affair, is you have to leave the trap of denial. And that's something we talk about all the time. Because the spouse that was betrayed in our situation, that was Caitlin, when she sees clearly with the blinders lifted, finds out the just even maybe a little bit of the information about how she was betrayed. She's not in denial about it. She's like, I say, this is. This is outrageous. But the person that caused the betrayal has this decision they have to make to see, to see reality. And so the first predictor of change that we tell couples in our programs to pay attention to is honesty and a willingness to get everything out. So that's the first thing I want you guys to think about. We're going to tell you four predictors of change. The first one is that honesty and getting things out, this is a messy process. So anytime there's been lying, broken trust, addiction, the person that was in the addiction or the extramarital affair had lied to themselves for a very long time. So they might get caught, feel a sense of remorse, and then be like, I want to change. So then the betrayed spouse says, well, what happened? And you say, I don't know. And all you listeners shaking your head saying, the amount of times I've been told, I don't know. And I said that to Kaylan a lot. When she asked me, like, what websites you go to, like, what did you see on social media? I was like, I don't know. Because the brain will protect you from seeing yourself from. The men that I have seen choose to go all in are the men that want to see the pain. They want to see the impact of their actions, and they actually want to see their actions at face value. They're like, I gotta. I gotta remember. I gotta see this. And so will there be moments of could this be messy? Where it's like, he's not clearly, like, coming clean with every finite detail of what happened? Yes. But he's got to have a willingness to see it. That's the first thing if you're like, we're either going to a divorce or we're going towards repair. There has to be, first and foremost, a willingness to see the behavior, the addiction where trust was broken. Because if you don't have that, if he's unwilling or she's unwilling to see the impact of the actions, then there is no rebuilding. If they want to live in denial in fairyland that this never happened, that it wasn't, that it shouldn't have hurt you this much, that let's just move on. There is no marriage on the other side. There is no better divorce is the best option if they do not want to get honest with themselves first and then bring that honesty to you and continue to see what was at the foundation of those behaviors.

[B]

Yeah. Because people oftentimes will want to argue, oh, this is so extreme. Like, I need to share everything. And it's like, all this is is honesty and truth. And if I were to survey a room of thousands of people and say, do you believe in truth and honesty as like a core value for humank mind, Everyone would raise their hand and say, absolutely. Like, it's really not an argument on if we believe that truth and honesty are beautiful values to hold as a person, as a family. Right. Yet then when we get into the nitty gritty of what truth and honesty means, people get really guarded. Like, oh, you mean truth and honesty, like actually sharing all of my secrets? It's like, well, yes, that's what truth and honesty is. Truth and honesty are not synonymous with self secrets. Like, that is the opposite of honesty. So when we say, okay, you're going to begin to get everything out. And people are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. My counselor never told me that. My pastor never told me that. There are things I definitely do not have to share with my wife. Like, I can tell her that I looked at pornography for 10 years, but I'm absolutely never going to tell her what type of pornography. I'm never going to tell her the memories that still haunt my mind every time I go to have sex with her. I'm never going to tell her about that person that I flirted with at the bar 13 years ago, because I. That doesn't make any sense. It doesn't impact our marriage now. And it's like, whoa. Well, then, are you honest? Are you being truthful? No. How could you be? How can you hold secrets and be an honest and truthful person? You cannot. You literally cannot. So every time you hit this block and go, oh, this is so extreme. They're so extreme. I should have these things that I can keep a secret. I should have these things that I have my right to take to the grave, to never share with anybody. Ask yourself, well, if I keep those secrets that am I honest? Then am I truthful? It's really simple. Once we make it a lot more practical. When we take all of our religious upbringing out of the picture, when we take everything culture and society taught us, our teachers and ours, you know, sports athlete coaches, when we take away what our friends taught us in high school, we remove all of it and we bring it down and simplify it. Like, does that make me an honest person? No. Secrets do not make me an honest person. And you might find yourself saying, oh, I don't know what I looked at. I don't know what I did. You know, it's been 30, 50 years. It's been 60 years. Some people come to our events in their 80s, and I'm like, that's amazing. And you can still access what you've been hiding because your soul knows. Your brain knows. Your subconscious mind knows everything. When people in our community say, oh, my spouse just says, every time we go to, you know, talk through these prompts that you give us, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It's like, no, you do know. You've told yourself, I don't know. To keep you safe from seeing. And the minute you tell yourself, I don't remember, and I want to, so please remind me of what I've done, of what I've seen, of actions I've chosen to Take your mind. I said this all the time to people when we were having them on for season three, whatever season that was. Your mind's going to go, oh, great. You want to see clearly. Perfect. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Memory after memory after memory after memory. And then there is your opportunity to lay everything down on the table so that you can finally see clearly. You're recreating a whole new foundation for your marriage. So if you leave out massive, massive boulders, you literally have empty spaces in your foundation. So your house isn't going to hold up. You have to literally fill in your entire foundation with truth and honesty, seeing clearly and getting it all out on the table.

[A]

So first and foremost, a partner that wants to change and has caused pain is willing to get honest with you and themselves. The second thing, these all build off of each other. By the way, the second predictor of change that you can look for when you're on the bridge of divorce is if your spouse is willing to get off of all screens, digital screens and entertainment. I know you all just took a big sigh of, I don't know if I want to do that. Well, here's what's difficult about getting honest. If you don't stop being busy and distracted from the present moment, you'll find out that they're, oh, I didn't have time to get honest with myself, and that was something I did. I tried to actually stay busy reading my Bible and doing all these good things, even just so I didn't have to look at my story. Now a lot of you are like, well, I need my time to decompress. I need my time to watch the shows we watch and to have this time if your marriage is on the line. I know you guys, I've read the reviews. Some of you leave a review, they're like, well, this is so fundamental. It's like, well, go do it and report back. Go do it. And for those of you that have done it, you know how life changing it is. Because if you're living a distracted life, you can't change. You can't get honest with yourself because you're too. There's too much noise to see. And so if you want to, if you're like a spouse that's saying, my wife is telling me I need to change that. She's not sure if she wants to stay with me. The second action you can take is to get entertainment out of your life because you're saying to yourself and to her clearly with your actions, the only thing I want to focus on right now is seeing. The truth is seeing. Reality is seeing. My story is beginning to heal. That's a gap in your calendar. That's from whenever you get home from work. If you work from 5 to 10, that's the 5 hour block. There's no entertainment, there's no numbing out, there's no checking out because you're trying to wake up, you're trying to leave the trap of denial. And the only way you can do that is turning off the tv, turning off the shows, turning off social media, letting the noise go away so you can actually hear the noise inside of you. And things will get really clear when you're not distracting yourself at every waking moment, you'll begin to feel again, you'll begin to comprehend again. And that's what most people are running from their whole life. It's not cause they love entertainment so much, it's because they want to be distracted from the chaos inside of them. But a marriage, marriage in crisis needs still water. It needs the chaos to settle so that you guys can actually look together and say, what is it we're healing from? So that is the second thing you have to look for is are they willing to get uncomfortably quiet with themselves? Are they willing to let go of all these distractions and these false comforts that prevent them from seeing?

[B]

Because you can't do the first predictor of change if you don't actually remove consumption and entertainment. Because consumption and entertainment are what you've used to help you forget, to help you cope with all of the secrets that you do have. So if you continue on coping and dissociating and distracting yourself, then guess what? You're still going to be distracted. So you, so you're actually not going to remember what you did. You're not going to know why you keep doing all the things you're doing. It's like, oh, how do I keep ending up on this porn site? Well, because you keep dissociating and coping and distracting yourself. So you literally have to remove everything. I like to say Brandon lived as a caveman when I said, enough is enough. I'm not going through this cycle anymore. Like, I'm literally not doing this again. So, like we're healing and changing together or we're done. And he's like, okay, yep, no, we didn't listen to any podcast that said get off of all entertainment. Like, we literally just went, whoa, if we're gonna heal, we need to quiet way down. We need to quiet the voices we're listening to. We already hadn't had a tv, we'd never owned a tv. We didn't watch TV shows, we didn't watch movies. That doesn't really mean anything today in society. Cuz we all carry around little pocket TVs with texts and calls and podcasts and books and social media and literally just anything that we want right here with us, right? Like we have to go back to caveman status, quiet everything down. Everyone goes again, this is so extreme. Like it's so extreme we're going to be honest. And it's like, well that's not really extreme. And then you go, oh, it's so extreme. I'm not going to do any entertainment. And we already did an episode on this whole concept. It's like, is it really that extreme to suggest that you remove all entertainment and consumption from your life when A, you probably hate your life and B, your marriage is falling apart? And see if we want to add in another thing, your kids are probably watching this all happen, right? And your kids are therefore being imprinted upon a life of coping, distraction and dissociating. And when I put it that way, if I tell you, hey, you're gonna love your life, you're gonna recreate a whole new marriage you love and your kids are gonna benefit from that no matter how young or old they are. Is that really that extreme? Doesn't the other option sound more extreme? If I handed you a platter and said, hey, watch as much sports, video games, social media, pornography as you want as all of those other things. CR the platter, do you want that or do you want the platter of abundant fulfilling life you love with a marriage you love and children that get to grow up in that environment? It's like, oh no, that actually that other platter sounded extreme. Now that you really paint the picture, it's actually really not extreme at all. Our society has made tv, technology, phones so extreme. We are over consumers of pretty much everything in our, in our US society specifically. So it's going to feel extreme to remove those categories from your life yet. You're going to realize like, oh, I finally get my life back. Oh, I'm not coping, I'm not dissociating, I'm not numb anymore. And you really, we're going to talk about that for number three, you have to remove all of this so that you can actually feel again. Because most people in addiction are completely numb. Why? Because they've turned to all of these devices, all of these escapes so that they don't have to feel anymore. So you have to remove all those so. So you can see clearly and so that you can feel again. And maybe you could dive into like, what do we mean by entertainment and getting off of screens?

[A]

Yeah. So just a quick. Just clarifier. If you continue to watch other people have sex as entertainment in movies, raunchy humor, you will continue to sexualize and objectify the world around you. You will continue to be desensitized to authentic sexuality, which so many of you are here because you want to experience sexual union in your marriage that feels safe, secure and vibrant. And you can't have that when you are scrolling on your phone, looking at people doing raunchy things, being desensitized, getting dopamine hits from the bodies and ideology and pictures of other people's lives in a fantasy world that doesn't exist, but that has a very real impact on your life. So this is not. Sometimes when people get caught in an addiction, they step outside. They, oh, you can't have the Internet anymore because you're a bad boy. That's one element. But this is not just your bad boy. Turn off your phone. This is like your life is about to get an upgrade if you're willing to. To be still, if you're willing to see. So getting into your body is possible when you're actually not trying to the entertainment. The reason we, we talk about screens is it's. It's basically how you leave your body. So the third thing we're empower you with is getting into your body. But getting off of this entertainment kick is no longer scrolling on social media, no longer watching TV shows, movies, even if it's clean. We're not just saying, like, get. Stop watching dirty content. We're just saying, like, stop consuming all content. You're like, well, what do I do? Well, you're gonna have some time back in your schedule. You're have some time to look at your story, to journal, to read material, to maybe go through a program, listen to a podcast, go outside, go walk, Go for a walk, maybe look your kids or your wife in the eyes and just enjoy your time together. We have very full lives. We don't need to fill them with any more noise. So you could be checking the weather on your phone. Let's stop checking the weather. You know what, just go outside. You could be constantly looking at places you want to visit and you. But you're not actually in the present moment. So just literally, like, think of everything you do and just pause all the digital landscape, just give it a pause so that you can Actually engage the present moment and see what happens.

[B]

When we embarked in this phase of our healing journey, like we said we had no tv, so that already was out the window. And for everyone that comes inside of our community app, I say, absolutely, take the TVs off your walls. Like, if you have a TV in your freaking bedroom, like, go take, pause this episode and literally go take that off and then come back and start listening to this. Like, the TV in your bedroom has got to go right now. Like, absolutely. I don't even need to go into the list of like 4000 million reasons why everyone knows that no TV should be in a bedroom, right? The TV on your living room wall, like, remove it for a season, take it off for 30 days, see what else you can do with your life. See what else you can fill your time with. Like, hang up a piece of art. In the meantime, put up a cute tapestry or a blanket and put your TV in the garage. Like, after 30 days, you might even find yourself selling it, right? So we already didn't have a tv. Already weren't watching movies, no TV shows, we didn't have net, Netflix, like, none of those things, right? So that's already getting removed from your life. That was already removed from our life. Brandon got off of all social media. It wasn't just that he stopped following inappropriate accounts. It wasn't just that he put a little, what are those things? Like the iPhone blockers. So, whoops, I ended up at a porn site now. Texted my accountability partner, but, whoops, how did I get here? And I'm probably not going to tell my wife. You know, we didn't do any blockers. We didn't do these things. We just literally went back to caveman status. And he got off of all social media. He wasn't just, okay, I'll just remove these things, but I'll try to stay on here, right? It's like, no, we are removing that for a season so that we can actually reevaluate what we want to create in our life. Because if you're not creating on social media, you are automatically consuming. And if you're consuming, you're sucking all of your creativity from your soul, from your marriage, from what you're here to actually do with your life. So you need to remove that so that you can create in your marriage. If you're sucking all the creative energy out of your marriage by scrolling on social media, how are you supposed to create anything new? How are you supposed to create change? How are you supposed to heal together? You cannot, you Just drained all your creativity and gave it to consumption of social media. Right? And people always have the argument of, well, what about all the good things? Like, I love that. Like, people will be like, well, that's how I found you guys. And it's like, that's incredible. And for 30 days, I guarantee you're going to have tenfold more good things interacting in your real life than you were going to find on social media. Is all of social media bad? Absolutely not. That's why we are on social media putting out beautiful content into the world, because there is beautiful people online, beautiful things, beautiful resources, beautiful ways of connecting. And for most of society, they're sadly not using it solely for that purpose. And if your marriage is in a crisis, you need to take a break. You might re enter to create online and use it for the beauty that it has and for the beauty that it holds. But right now, don't give me that argument, because your life isn't beautiful right now. You need to create beauty in your own life and not suck all of your creative energy into consuming. So, yes, there can be really great things people will say, well, I use my TV on my wall to listen to worship music and to watch these podcasts and to listen to sermons. And it's like, okay, and you're gonna get divorced next month if you don't make changes. So take the TV off the wall and have hard conversations, go outside and go for walks. So that's what we did. We went outside every single day. We went for like one to two walks every day. We have kids at this time. We still have kids. And we had two. We had two daughters. They're very young, required a lot of time from us. So we would take them for walks, we would go for walks, we'd have hard conversations on walks. We would lay a blanket outside, we would sit outside while the kids would play. And we would keep having these conversations because it was either have these conversations and heal or keep watching TV and scrolling on social media and get divorced. And for us, we're like, whoa, obviously we're gonna pick this other option, so we're gonna spend way more time outside, way more time adventuring. Guess what happens when you do all that? You finally come back alive. You get back into your body, you see clearly. So then you know what you're actually moving towards and wanting to create and heal. Everything begins to change. How do we, like, why we don't recommend anything that we didn't actually do? Like, we're not recommending this because we read it In a book that's really good. And we went to college and we learned it in our, one of our seminars. No, like, nobody told us this. We just did this. We tested this. Brandon did this. And this is what catapulted us into the, the healing that our marriage really needed.

[A]

So when you're looking at this from a lens of like, okay, I'm willing to communicate to my spouse, or if you're listening this together, which would be ideal if you're on that verge of separation, these are the simple things that get installed as a. In the back of your mind. It's like, okay, if my spouse who betrayed me is willing to, to. To live a new life, that's what you're looking for. So the first thing is, are they willing to get honest? Secondly, are they willing to get off entertainment? Third, are they willing to get into their body? So what? That looks like it's twofold. One, it's time in nature. So it's going outside. You're going to have to go outside. Because if you actually turn off all of the entertainment and all the noise just sitting around your house, unless you're organizing or painting or drawing or reading with your kids, there's not, there's not a lot to do inside. Like, you can do stuff and you, you should like, decorate your home, clean out your home, do your dishes, do the laundry, do all the normal things, cook and enjoy life, burn a candle, like, have, have it, be beautiful and go outside. Like, be willing to change the environment that you are in. Because when you go on a walk with your spouse, when you begin to prioritize movement and nature, you begin to unlock greater capacity to have the hard conversations. But not only to have the hard conversations, but also get a vision for what life can look like when you're not numb and dumb, when you're not checked out of your relationship. Because most of what we do in life involves movement, energy, going outside, going places together. So that's your life, that's your everyday life. You might as well enjoy it and begin to create instead of just sitting in a dark, dungy house. Or maybe you got your lights on bright and the light, the sun's already set. Turn your lights off, turn a candle on, turn some soft lamps on. What if you made your life around going places that were beautiful, where you live with your spouse and you're like, hey, we're healing from a lot right now. Like, let's, let's take the kids and let's go to the lake this weekend. Or let's Go to the forest. Well, let's go to watch the sunset. As a family, start looking for those things. Because if your spouse is saying, you know what, I don't actually want to live and play video games isolated in my office. I want to see you. I want to be with you. I want to be with the family. I want to. That's what life is about. And that's a big predictor of change because it's, it's, it's sustainable. You don't do that for a season and then stop doing it. That's a new way of living. So the first thing is getting out in nature, but the second thing of getting into your body is starting a daily embodiment practice. Some of you may heard the term mindfulness, breath work. We talk about this in our app. But winning the first 10 minutes of the day by setting aside 10 minutes to do somatic exercises that allow you to feel your emotions again, to check back into your body, allow you to engage in intense moments of dialogue through your sexual history, through the betrayal, without checking out, without leaving that conversation. And so if your spouse is saying, I want to, you know, I want to validate your pain, that would look like them spending 10 minutes in the morning and 10 minutes at night. 10 and 10. Training their nervous system to both release trauma, but also to build capacity for the difficult work of healing. So if they're willing to do that, that's a great sign where it's like, wow, they're willing to do a couple minutes of breathing to learn how to, like, shake their arms out, shake their legs out, to do some things that allow them to feel again. Instead of being a rock wall that doesn't want to see their past, that person is starting to change and is willing to change in massive ways. And that's huge.

[B]

Yeah. Because coming back home to your body means that you come back home to your emotions. And in the beginning, when you remove consumption and you remove screens and you're finally getting honest with yourself and you're doing these practices of shaking it out and coming back home into your body, you might feel excruciatingly uncomfortable because you're finally going to feel emotions that you've actually been running from and coping from for probably a long time, if not your whole life. Right. So it's like, oh, I felt uncomfortable, so I'll go look at pornography. Oh, I felt uncomfortable, so I'll go scroll on social media. Oh, I felt uncomfortable, so I'll eat a whole pack of Oreos or binge drink soda or Whatever it is, smoke a pack of cigarettes, drink, get drunk. Like, we, we all have grown up with our certain coping mechanism, right? So when you remove that coping mechanism, you get back the full spectrum of emotions. And most people don't know what to do with the full spectrum of emotions because they were taught to cope with them, to shove them down, to shove them aside, right? So when you begin to do all these things, you might not initially feel better. You might feel actually way worse. You might feel like, whoa, why the heck did I listen to these people? Like, I feel terrible. Great, that's a great sign you're feeling again. There was actually someone inside our community that just kept saying, like, I feel terrible, I feel terrible, I feel sad, I feel this emotion. I feel all of these big, giant emotions. And I'm like, good, you're finally feeling again everything you were taught from a young age to run away from, to push down to, you know, add these 15 things to cope. Like, you're feeling that now. And then fast forward, we do a check in in the community and that person is like, whoa, it's, I'm beginning to feel alive. I'm beginning to love my life. You can't feel these amazing, incredible emotions. If you suppress your negative emotions, you'll shut down all of your emotions. When you go to cope by binge watching something, by drinking, smoking, doing drugs, by having sex with others, like, you don't just only shove away negative emotions, you shove away all emotions. You become a numbed out, dissociated, disembodied person. You are not in your body. You left your body, you ran away from your body. You escaped yourself, you escaped, escaped your reality. So you don't get to feel negative emotions. So cool. Like you, you hacked that, but then you lost all the positive ones too. And actually you're crumbling your whole life with it, right? So when you come back home to your body, you're initially excruciatingly uncomfortable, yet the reward is you teach yourself what to do with discomfort in a healthy way that should have been taught to you when you were a child. That's exactly what I'm teaching my children. My children are two all the way to nine. I'm teaching all of my children what to do when they feel uncomfortable, what to do when they make someone else feel uncomfortable. And I'm not telling them to use screens. I'm not telling them to dissociate, to cope. I'm also not telling them that's not okay that you feel that negative emotion. It's not okay. That you feel sad, go to your room and cry. You're too loud. You're this spank you. Put you in the corner. Like, these are how a lot of us grew up. So we don't know what to do with our negative big emotions. We just know mom and dad were always on a screen. Mom and dad were always doing this. Mom and dad were always drinking. Mom and dad weren't there to comfort me, to hug me, to give me what I needed. So now I still don't know what to do. Right. So you're an adult. No matter what age you are now, that's learning. What do I do with my uncomfortable emotions? Oh, I'm sad. Instead of playing video games, I'm gonna go outside and go for a walk. Instead of binge drinking until I can't feel anymore, I'm gonna go watch the sunset. Instead of going to the garage and tinkering with a million things, I'm gonna sit and play a game with my kids. I'm going to have dinner with my wife. I'm going to help her make dinner. We're going to cook and create together. I'm going to turn my emotions back on. I'm going to find healthy ways to navigate the uncomfortable emotions I'm now facing. And a great tool is getting in your body. So many times, Brandon felt excruciatingly uncomfortable, and he went outside in his underwear into the snow. Like, I just want to feel something. I just want to tap in back inside to my body to know what to do. He'd just be out there journaling in the snow in his underwear, just journaling, wanting to feel something. He doesn't run. He hates running. And I'm gonna go for a run. I'm just gonna go run. Like, I'm just gonna go generate what I need to generate, right? So it's like you're learning to come back home to your body so that you can finally feel again. You can finally know yourself again, be home again. This is crucial to coming back alive and to reviving your marriage.

[A]

Now, all the men out there that are trying to ignore all the great things Caitlin just said, so this doesn't apply to me. I'm trying. I'm doing my best. This is about a predictor of whether you will change or not. And so you actually have to. It has to be a concrete action. So for those of you that are like, this doesn't make sense to me. Let me make it simple. The embodiment work, getting out in nature is training for your relationship the same way you train for a marathon, a competition. This is you saying, I'm going to train my nervous system so that I can engage my relationship. If you've tried talk therapy and it did not work, wasn't because there was something wrong with you or your problem or two was too big, it's because you only were trying to engage your mind. Your body has to be engaged in the healing process, in the in the relationship, because that's where, that's where things get real. As long as you're stuck in the stories of your head and the stories you've told yourself and you're projecting onto your wife, you won't be able to validate her in her pain. You won't be able to be strong in the rebuilding phase. But once you say, I'm going to own my physical body, my emotional body, and I'm going to train it so that I can check into my relationship, that sounds strong, that sounds powerful. So instead of running away from that, it's time to lean in and check in. And for those of you that are curious, like, what is the exact embodiment routine that you recommend? We share that in detail with like how to videos inside of our our app, which is in the show notes below this. But I would recommend doing some breath work, doing some affirmations where you look yourself in the mirror. There's some other things you can do like shaking out your arms, a cold plunge you can look up mindfulness exercises. I would build like a 10 minute routine that you can get up and do and just commit to. At night. I would do something that also helps calm your body down. There's one called 6:12 breathing where you breathe in for six seconds from one nostril, then hum and breathe out of the other nostril for 12 seconds. It's not rooted in any world religion, so you don't have to be of a certain faith to do it or not do it. It's just literally to give your body what it needs so that it can inhale and exhale and that you can check into your relationship. So so far, those three things we've talked about of the there's four predictors of change. The first one is they're willing to get honest. The second one is they're willing to get off of entertainment. The third is this willingness. Not just a willingness, they're actually getting into their body through going outside and setting aside this time for embodiment. The fourth thing is the willingness and action of rewiring the brain. Rewiring Their thoughts. So a lot of you are here because you're coming through addiction, broken trust, some form of sexual brokenness. And this is where we are weird because a lot of the addiction recovery space affair recovery is we want to talk about, like, what happened back then. What did you do with her? How many times you went to porn for how long? And are you lying about it? Have you stopped? And there might be some questions from the betrayed spouse of like, well, what if he still thinks about her? But most of it is not about the impact that the behavior had on the person that acted out. It's more just like, that hurt that you did that. How are we supposed to rebuild from that? And we don't talk about, like, do you still think about the woman you slept with? Do you still think about all the porn you watch? Do you still fantasize about and sexualize other women that see in public? The betrayed spouse is usually asked to not ask those questions. We can't test for that in the poll. We can't test for that in a lie detector test. That's kind of for him to work through with his. His accountability group. Like, you're pain shopping if you're asking those questions. You don't have the right to ask those questions. This is something that all men struggle with. We just want to make sure he's not doing the big nasty stuff so we never actually get to the rewiring the brain, which I don't agree with that approach. We don't agree with that because if you never actually rewire the thoughts, the memories, the associations you have within your sexuality with, we call it the debris of what you've been through. You've all the gunk. If you aren't willing to face it, then you're not wanting to change. You're wanting to protect your old friends, your affair partners in your mind, your websites you went to, you want to actually give that mental real estate that will haunt you and your relationship. That's not somebody that wants to change. That's somebody that wants to move on from the conversation. You can't. I can't validate you if I don't actually want to see it for myself and see how it impacted me today. And so what we talk about as the fourth predictor is this willingness to rewire their thoughts. And for the betrayed spouse to actually know what that means for the betrayed spouse to know. Like, so what's your daily experience? Like, I didn't know about your addiction. Now I do. Like, do you. Do you objectify other women do you remember things you've seen? And it's those conversations, and it's not just saying, yeah, I do. That's the start. That's the honesty piece. It's the yes. And I'm willing to take ownership and rewire my mind systematically so that I can create a new reality. And I don't tolerate any of the debris coming between us anymore. And so the most practical way we look at doing that is taking radical inventory of your subconscious mind, your sexualized memories, the moments where you're. You're sexualizing other people, the details that you didn't share with your spouse in your initial disclosure. It's actually saying, you know what? Subconscious. Open up to me because I want to see and I want to own and I want to rewire my brain towards what will create life in my relationship. And I want to. I want to openly share that process with my spouse, because they deserve to know.

[B]

And this is where most of our controversial viral videos come in, is because we believe that you can rewire attraction fully, that you actually can be only attracted to your spouse. Why do we believe that? Because that's what we experimented with and that's what we created. Right? That's the only reason why we share anything that we do is not because.

[A]

Isn't that why we. Isn't that why we. If we're. If we choose marriage, union, it's like there is no other.

[B]

Right? That's what we decided upon.

[A]

That's not. If that's. If that's not what you chose or want, you just need to be honest and say, like, this isn't. I didn't actually want one partner.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And there are a big group of people doing that. Most of them are unhappy. You can go check Reddit for those stories. But if you chose your partner, there was something that was attractive about them, and it wasn't just a fleeting pinball machine brain where it's like, oh, she had a nice butt, so I married her. And now I keep looking at other nice butts everywhere I go. It's like, what?

[B]

Right.

[A]

What's attractive about my wife is the relationship. So. So I interrupted.

[B]

That was great.

[A]

I think even should play the applause when there's like a controversial. Yeah.

[B]

Even just piggybacking off of the. The whole sector of people that believe in essentially this concept. I forget what the terms are, but where you, you know, maybe. Maybe you are married or maybe you have many wives or many husbands or you have. I think it's like open relationship. You know, we actually had a Couple come into our space that did not have any sort of religious background that, that we actually grew up with because we grew up as Christians, still love Jesus. We just broke free from a lot of toxic religious thinking. And so this couple didn't grow up in any sort of faith. So they didn't have like this concept of, you know, we have to just be married, just us too, because that's what God says kind of a thing. So they read a book, their marriage had a crisis point. They were just married, just the two of them. They're married to the crisis point. They read a book, sought help, which they thought was wise counsel. They entered into an open relationship, which means that they mutually agreed that they could see other people have sex with other people and that was going to be okay. So they both were having sex with other people. It was known like it was talked about. That was it. Right. And their marriage still sucked. They still didn't like each other. They still don't want to be married. They still weren't fulfilled. Sleeping with random other people didn't actually make this marriage feel like it was coming alive. It didn't actually solve any of the pain that was causing the disconnect in the marriage. Right. Like, they tried it out and then they found our.

[A]

You didn't have the complexity of dealing with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Those other relationships.

[B]

And they have to deal with those. Then they have to deal with the memories, the all of that chaos. They still had to clean up all of that. Now, even though they mutually agreed upon it, it wasn't that they were cheating on each other. They agreed that they were going to do that. Many people find themselves in that field, in that space. And there's a whole argument that one person cannot satisfy your soul, one person cannot meet all your needs. And so that's why we need to have these other people that can come in and fill these voids. And I'm here to tell you that we have a satisfying, connecting, intimate union. There's not a single day or a single moment where I'm like, oh, yeah, I need to sleep with a stranger outside.

[A]

Appreciate that. I'm actually going to write a book on this. I just. I don't know which book. I don't know if it's title.

[B]

It's going to go.

[A]

I can't. Well, I can't tell everybody I have the title. But then I haven't bought the domain yet. So I can't tell you the title because you'll buy the domain.

[B]

Steal the domain.

[A]

But I'm gonna write a book on this because it's. It's. I actually have no shame to cast. And some of you are here probably listening, like, I'm polyamorous. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm in open relationships. We're not here to shame anybody. I actually don't. I don't. I'm not anti anybody. I'm pro union. I'm pro love. I'm pro intimacy. We have chosen, and the vast majority of you listening this are under the worldview that this would be one man and one woman in a relationship that bears children. That creates a family. It creates this ecosystem where you want to. Yeah. Leaves a legacy. You want to be married for life. That's who we're speaking to. So we aren't against any of you. We don't have any flags hanging up somewhere. That's like anti lgbtqia. We're not against anything. We are pro the union and the marriage vision that we were here to create, and then we're here to empower in others. And so what we're saying is if your vision is a marriage union that's satisfying, then it's time to rewire the brain. So in the practicality of that, the rewiring of the brain of that fourth predictor is we walk through these four Rs. We have a whole section in our. In our app about this. It's called the four R's. And it's a systematic process for taking. If you're come from a Christian background, I'd be like, you know, taking your thoughts captive. But this is like. I want to say, it's so easy. I didn't think it was easy or funny at the time. It was. I was petrified to do it. I didn't want to see it.

[B]

You had to face yourself to do this part.

[A]

And you can do this with anything that you want to change. But we're going to do it, do it for sexuality. The four Rs is. I'll say them all, all four of them, and then I'll. You've heard them in the podcast before, but I'm gonna actually give another example. So the four Rs are to recognize. We change the second R for you guys to understand for it makes more sense. It's to regulate, recognize, regulate, release, and replace. So how that looks like on a daily basis is. Is being willing to. To recognize how your sexual memories are impacting you in. Today, when Caitlin and I went to do an emotional exercise where we would talk and look into each other's Eyes. I was seeing the image of women's breasts back in 2019. We were trying to heal. I was seeing other women's breasts, people we knew, images. I had seen pornheits. I was seeing that. I was like, what? Like, kind of like I'd stuffed this all down because I thought this monster would eat me if I ever just was honest with myself. I thought I had to just numb out.

[B]

You originally felt like a victim to it. Like, oh, this isn't my fault. Like, I didn't try to access this memory. Like, especially in the Christian sphere, it's like, oh, this is the devil tempting me. This is the devil coming at me, bombarding me. Like. Like, as if you have no control of your mind, as if you didn't see those things, put those things into your.

[A]

But when you do get too far down the. The path of addiction, you don't. You aren't in control exactly. But you can pull.

[B]

Automated.

[A]

But you can grab the reins whenever you want. I want. I want you guys to know. When Caitlin and I were alone in the room, I looked around, and I couldn't find the devil anywhere. He didn't. He wasn't under the bed. He wasn't the monster in the closet. It was just me and my wife and the thoughts I had wired in. At some point, the worldview, the way I saw women, the way I used women to alleviate my anxiety, to conjure up different feelings, to get dopamine hits. In the moment that we tried to connect, this wall came up, which was the image of other women. I don't know why. Well, I do know why. Because I filled my mind with that and adopted a belief system about that for decades.

[B]

That's how you sought connection when you wanted connection. When you were growing up, you sought connection by looking at other women's breasts. So then when you went to connect here, what was your mind saying? Oh, this is what connection is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oops. Yeah, boobs. Boobs.

[A]

You might think this is weird. Guys, I'm looking right at the camera. For those of you who are listening, I'm looking right at you. If you want to watch on YouTube or Spotify, if this sounds weird, it is. Sexual brokenness is weird. So let's walk through the four R's. It's weird because it's not natural. It doesn't feel right. It doesn't produce connections. So that's an example. I'm sitting with my wife. We're getting real. We're going through these emotional exercises that our counselor gave us, and boom. I'm remembering boobs. So I stop and I do the first R, which is to recognize.

[B]

You do this out loud with. This isn't like a secret. You didn't call your buddy on your phone. Yes. To do it.

[A]

Hey, baby, I'm going to interrupt you right here. I'm recognizing these memories flooding my mind of these other women's breaths. I recognize it. So I just said it all out. I'm going to regulate. I'm going to take a deep breath. The regulate is to get into your body so that we're not just like. I'm going to tell that thought to leave. This isn't rebuking the thought. This isn't like, like pushing it out of you. It's literally just okay. That's what my mind associated with this moment. Like Caitlin said, the reason my mind was doing that is because anytime I wanted to feel affirmation, affection, to not feel lonely, to alleviate this, when I wanted to feel comforted, I looked at a cute smiling face or a sexualized body on the Internet or in person. And now I'm sitting with my wife and I'm trying to open up my heart for the first time five years into our marriage. And I'm feeling that feeling of affection and, and affection from Caitlyn. I'm letting it in and my mind's like, oh, you, you're wanting images of women's breasts, right? And I'm like, let's pause. I recognize that. I take a deep breath to regulate. I release this. You can just make a verbal proclamation or declaration. I release these memories and these thoughts and the fourth R, which a lot of people get stuck on because this is not a shame based thing. This is actually just taking ownership. I replace those thoughts with this moment. There's nothing sexual about any of these other women. They're not in the room with me. I'm here with my wife in this intimate moment. Mind you can be settled on this space. This is a safe place.

[B]

So you're essentially telling your mind, telling your body, oh, this is connection. Oh, this is affection. Oh, this is intimacy. Because you might go like, how does this change everything? Well, at some point, probably when you were young, for this story's example, you wired in boobs, other people's boobs, lots of boobs, different types of boobs for affection, connection, intimacy, comfort, all those things. Right? You could fill this in with lots of stories and lots of examples. We're just breaking down this one specific one. So you wired into your brain when I need to feel this or when I Feel this. This is what I do. This is what I see. This is what I access, right? So now you're going, whoa, whoa, whoa. Scratch that. I don't want that anymore. Okay. I'm actually now saying to my brain and my body, this moment, looking at my spouse, holding hands, connecting eye contact. This is connection, right? Your brain takes that in as information and goes, okay, input it in, like, input received. So then when it happens again, you go, whoa, whoa, whoa. Replacing that memory, inputting in this one before you know it.

[A]

It's even more relaxed than the. Like, the whoa, whoa, whoa is like Caitlin helping you see, like. But it's like a. Oh, okay. And it's not shame. It's like, oh, wow. And then you take the deep breath. This is a good moment to take care of that. This is a good moment to. It's almost like if you had, like, a thousand acres of mental real estate and 800 of them are occupied with sexual debris that you don't care for anymore. You're essentially rebuying all these plots of land that were taken. You know, oh, I had sold that one. I'm going to buy that one back. I'm going to take this back so I can actually occupy the present moment and not be tormented by what I've seen. There are so many people we've supported that say, yeah, I've been tormented from my exes. The porn I watched on a daily basis for years. Tormented. This is the process of saying, wow, mind. The mind's not against you. Our brain is neutral in the sense that it just feeds the. It runs the program. We give it. And we're unique.

[B]

We create the brain we want 100%.

[A]

And we're unique as humans in the sense that we have a mind and a brain and they're separate because you can actually zoom out and look at yourself and get perspective of your own life. That's your mind's eye. That's not just the brain matter you have there. We have this unique opportunity to say, I understand all of it would be a lie. And we hear about honesty. We have this opportunity where we can choose to be active participants of our healing and the rewiring process. So what that looked like, practically, is if I was with Caitlyn, I'd pause the moment if. If, like, the kids weren't, like, right there, and I'd say, hey, I'm going to do the four hours on this. This memory I'm having, or this thought. And sometimes it was phrases about another woman or it was a porn scene. Or it was, hey, I just. We just went to this restaurant and I just looked directly at that woman's breasts. And that's not how I actually desire to look at women anymore. And you're like, that sounds pretty overwhelming. Freaking was.

[B]

It was. It was excruciating. And we make it sound really light hearted when we're going through the process, but it wasn't light hearted at all. And we, again, we had no podcasts. We were listening to that. Nobody recommended this to us. I love those reviews. I literally love the one star review that's like, they say, do what nobody recommended what every counselor said not to do. And it's like, you guys, I say that over and over again because this was uncharted territory that everyone screamed, don't do. Don't do. Don't do do. You know what's screaming at me not to do this? The guy who said the. The Christian counselor who's this pastor for all these years, who said he had been free from his sexual brokenness and addiction for 10 years and he was still noticing the waitresses large breasts is what he told me. And I'm thinking, I don't want that. I know that you're telling me that that's what healing and freedom looks like, but if I'm 60 like you and that's what my marriage looks like at point some 60, that sucks. Like, that literally sucks. I want something way better. Like, I remember sitting there in my. I'm so. I'm like a baby. I'm like, I don't even know how old I am. Like 20 something.

[A]

Yeah, 23.

[B]

I'm literally sitting there thinking, like, oh my gosh. Like, I'm actually thinking swear words, actually. But I'll keep it pg. I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I would rather never be married for the rest of my life than live decades with a man who has to notice other big breasts and big butts every time we go outside.

[A]

Which is. Is not even like, it's not fulfilling to the soul. It's also just a judgment against the person of whether they're screwable or not.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that's what, you know, people say back to the polygamous or the polyamory thing. You know, mammals, most animals are not. Not monogamous. Meaning that this is. They're. They're with one partner. But have you seen the mating practices of animals? Monkeys do really, really weird stuff. Just go to a freaking zoo and look at monkeys hu. Each other's genitals. Pee on each other. Yeah. Pick Pick whatever things. We are not monkeys, even if you share the DNA. Like, again, I'm. This isn't about origin of the universe type stuff. This is, like, we can go down to, like, I just walk around and think about who I can have sex with, like, caveman style. Caitlyn said I became a caveman, but not like this. You're literally in survival mode if. If you're just walking around with your brain barely working, thinking about who you can screw, even if it's micro. Like, I just looked there. Oh, wow. And I got my phone bank. Then my wife. Oh, she's scary because she's real. Unless I go to my office and then. And then at the. At the. At my work. Oh, my. The secretary is nice to me. She laughs at my jokes. She doesn't know the real me because

[B]

she doesn't put up with.

[A]

She doesn't know I don't put my clothes away. She doesn't know I'd stink. She flirts with me. She's nice, happy monkey. I see her like, guys, is that what you want? Is that. Is that where we're headed as a society? I hope not. So again, we're not. If you want to stay monkey brain, we can't help you. And I'm not against you, but please, this will go over your head if you're like, you know what I'd like to develop? I'd like to harness my sexuality to do a little more than just having sex with my wife. Make some kids, maybe get a vasectomy, and try not to make more kids and then still never experience full intimacy. Is that what this is about? And still thinking about, like, I would have sex with that movie actor, or I watch this porn. The fourth predictor of change is a partner that's willing to look at the mess, the sheer chaos of their sexual debris in history and say, I want to look at everything. I want to be honest. I'm turning off the screens, I'm getting in my body, and I'm ready to systematically rewire my brain on a daily basis. I'm going to tell you every thought that comes up. For me, it was like 30 to 50 thoughts. And there was a time period where I. I would get open with Caitlin because we didn't have the framework, but I'd get open and be like, I would try to talk through things, and it wasn't going away. I'm like, babe, I'm like, let's stop talking about this. And then I realized that Kaitlyn was so intuitive. Like, so you're not having any thoughts. I'm like, no, I am. I'm just not telling you. Like, well, you committed to telling me.

[B]

I'm like, ah.

[A]

I finally got to this point. I was like, we're not going to stop having this conversation until we. Until we get to the other side of this. So I stopped making it about reporting to mommy, and I started wondering, you know what? I don't actually enjoy walking into a store looking at a woman's butt, looking away, coming around, other maybe looking back again, if Katelyn's not my life. That's still weird.

[B]

You still don't like it?

[A]

I still don't want a relationship with that woman. You know, she said she wanted me to have sex with her and there was no consequences. I don't want that. So why is my brain giving me through the reticular activating system? This is your. That, like, purple jeep, purple elephant thing. You'll see them everywhere now. Why is my brain still telling me that that woman's butt is important to me?

[B]

Because you trained it to.

[A]

Because I trained it to. So I just said, you know what? I'm gonna find out if this works for me. And I started finding out. There was 30, 40, 50 memories, thoughts, times where I was just subconsciously looking at body parts out in public. I wrote them down, and I walked through the four hours. And then at night, I said, hey, babe, here's my list of the things I walked through this today. And there was te. And there was questions, because it revealed other things I had lied about that we hadn't talked about yet. And you know what? There also was. There was, at times compassion. There was at times massive patterns that were revealed. Like, oh, is this type of woman. It was this situation. It was this emotion. That's why I know that when we were having emotional conversations and it was coming up, I didn't just stuff it down. I was like, wait, why is this happening? And we're like, oh, ding, ding, ding. And guess what? After about a month of. There's months of not wanting to do this, but after a month of saying, I'm all in, my brain responded so radically that the previous month, I was like, I don't believe that this is possible, but I'm grateful that Caitlin doesn't look at other men's penises all the time, because that's weird. And I didn't want a free pass to go, like, look at women's body parts from the sexualized view. So I was like, I'd prefer to have what you've got. Going on because Caitlin didn't have a bunch of debris to clean up, and she was in her body, so I went for it. And at the end of the 30 days, I was walking outside, and I was. I was confused by my own freedom. I was walking outside. I was like.

[B]

Because you were told it was impossible.

[A]

Because I told it impossible. Like, wait a second. I just. I'm seeing everybody's faces. I'm not having to even, like, I'm not having to fight. Like, don't look. Don't look down.

[B]

Don't look.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not. I'm not walking around shame. I'm not sitting inside, staying. Staying isolated from the world. I'm seeing women. I'm like, I saw her face. I felt no dopamine. I felt no rise. I felt no thoughts. I didn't, like, feel like I need to look back at her. We were. At that time, we were making love, and there was, like. There's no, like, thoughts about porn I had seen. There was no, like, shame I was feeling. I was like. I felt like I had taken an internal shower. I'm like, I feel clean. I. I'm not. Like, a woman's wearing a tank top, and I'm not curious if her nipples are doing something. Like, it's just like. My brain was like, oh, you told us this wasn't what you needed to see and be trained on. Now I know we just did a deep dive, and you're like, so you're telling me if I need to know if my husband wants. If I need to get divorced or not, if he's willing to do what you just described. That's the. That's the diving in. If. Yeah. If you want to save your marriage.

[B]

Yeah, you have to. If you have to rewire your brain. This is what I always say in our community.

[A]

Get to.

[B]

If you don't rewire your brain, you're still walking around with the same brain that you trained. So you can't recreate a new marriage with the same old brain. You have to, like Brandon said, take back the land. You have to take back your mind, your brain, and go, whoa, this is what I wired in. I'm replacing that and rewiring in something beautiful and new. Like, Brandon also said, this is about seeing clearly. Like, that's what we learned through that, through that whole process. Everyone doesn't recommend that you do that. And it's such a disservice because. Is it excruciatingly painful? Absolutely. So was our marriage at the time. Like, we weren't living blissed out. We were about to get divorced, and many of you are about to get divorced. Many of you are not living blissed out in your marriage. You're already in pain. Okay? This pain is momentary because you're recreating a whole new marriage, and then you get to the other side, and there is no more pain. There is no more constant discomfort. There is no more constant arguing, no more constant wondering if your spouse is looking at things online. No more wondering, does he need the blockers? Does he talk to his accountability partner? Does he look at the girl in the swimsuit? Like, you don't live on edge like that anymore. Your life is clear and whole and good and connected and intimate. It's absolutely worth the excruciatingly difficult conversations because if you don't have them, you stay in pain. You don't ever get out. People are like, how do you do. This is so painful. You were already in pain, and you were never getting out of that pain. This is painful, and you're getting out of it. I guarantee it. How do I know? Because we walked through it. We did it right. When people tell you not to do this, it's a disservice. Because this process right here of seeing clearly and rewiring your brain is when you finally understand your life and your story, what has shaped you, what has created you, what has formed your mind. And then, better yet, you. You get to see it, and you get to understand it. And then you get to say, this is now what I want to create. This is what I want to keep. This is what I want to let go of. This is what I'm stepping into. You literally take back your whole life, and you go, whoa, this is what my life will be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So to not do this is such a disservice. To do this process gets you your whole life back. Like, how valuable, how worth it. And we talk about shame a lot. And I want to add this note in here. Shame shuts you down. So when you begin to see clearly and when you begin to rewire and you tap into shame, you tap into woe is me, dog with the tail in between the legs, that whole thing, you shut yourself down from seeing any more thoughts. Thoughts from seeing anything more clearly, from bringing those subconscious things into the light so that you can actually be honest and get the truth out. Okay, so we're not tapping into any shame here. When Brandon embarked on this journey and actually was wholeheartedly committed, we like to call it a curious detective. You become curious. You're Both curious. Like, whoa. Instead of going, gosh, why do I keep looking at women's breasts? It's like, well, of course you keep looking at women's breasts. You've been doing that since you were 10 years old because your dad gave you a pornographic magazine and told you to look at women's breasts. Like, instead of being like, so, oh, gosh, gosh, gosh. You know, like, I'm going to beat myself up. You go, oh, I'm curious. Why do I look at women's breasts? Oh, because I was exposed. Because I chose this, because I did this, because I went here, because I saw this. Like, see the difference there? When you become curious, you open up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you can see it. So then you can rewire it and recreate. When you go into Shane, you close up and you can't see, so you cannot heal. So you have to stay curious so that you can stay open so that you can actually fully make it to the other side of the process.

[A]

I could listen to you speak all day. The three categories we wanted to kind of close this out with for this episode, and it's such an honor to have you guys here. The first one, if you're, like, considering divorce or trying to see is my spouse changing? So we. We gave you those four predictors of change. Honesty, getting off screens, getting into their body, and being open to rewiring their brain and sharing that process with you. So those are the predictors. This is kind of the attitude around that, the action. So the first one would be a spouse that is owning the mess. And it's still messy, but they're saying, I want to own this. I'll even say, I'm not saying. Like, I don't even think I was that courageous, but I was willing to see, like, this is a mess. I'm not going to. Like, I wasn't willing to change the subject.

[B]

You were willing to actually put in the daily actions. Like, how do we come up with this predictors of change list? I came up with this because this is what brand. When Brandon. People always, like, how did you know Brandon was going to heal? Like, what made the biggest differences? When did you start seeing the switch? Like, how'd you know to trust him again? Right. These are all the questions everyone wants to ask me. And it's like, oh, I sat down for a second and thought, how did I know? When did I know things were changing? When did I know? Oh, gosh, he's taking this seriously. Like, he's not just pulling my leg and dragging me along. Right. And I thought about it and I went, oh, well, he did these four things every single day. He said to me, I'm gonna change and heal. And then he did these four things.

[A]

Yeah, it was still messy sometimes because I started doing those things and we didn't have it all laid out. What would be the most, like, comprehensive approach? A lot of this was like, trying a few things. And I mean, like, there's some holes here or getting some, getting some information from one person and then having to start afresh. I took ownership for the mess. And this part may be messy. There might be something. You might be a month into this and be like, oh, my gosh. My spouse just told me he had just remembered something he hadn't told me. About 10 years into our marriage when he had coffee with this woman and they had flirted for hour and, and he never. He. He's lying to me again. Like, should I leave him?

[B]

Yes. Great.

[A]

If he wants to take ownership and is bringing things to you, is that trickle truth? Is that delayed disclosure? And is that. Is that excruciating to the soul? 100%. And you know how much you can take, are willing to take. And if you don't want to say, you don't have to.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, we're never, like, just stay and take it. If he's willing to put his feet to the fire, it shouldn't take him crazy amount of time. If he's willing to get honest with himself, get off screens, get in his body and start rewiring his brain, he's going to start remembering fast.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So this might be 30 days, 60 days of outright hell for you to be like, I don't know who the hell you are, but if you just discovered something about him that either he got caught, whatever, you're already going to be in 60 days of crisis. This is just him actually showing you if he's willing to put his feet to the fire. You're already in the fire.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

See if he'll join you. So that's actually what I mean. I've. I'm fired up about this right now because I think what most people don't get is like, the betrayed spouse loses in most scenarios.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They find out big picture, what happened, all the details. You don't get to know the, the person that, the person that the betrayer, they just know their spouse is hurt and they might lose stuff. So they're sad about that. You know what the betrayer needs to learn the person that caused the pain, what that was and the Only way for them to do that is for them to get wildly uncomfortable with themselves. For them to come say, hey, I have perverted thoughts all day long. And not like a little victim. Be like, this is the life I created. This is a mess. You look your spouse in the eye and say, this is how I'm gonna take ownership for it. I'm gonna recognize it. I'm gonna regulate my body. I'm gonna release that thought and I'm gon it with what's true. And you know what? They do it. Not even knowing if you're going to stay.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm going to. I've got 30 more thoughts I'm going to figure out, and I'm going to own this. So it's not this, like, reporting, like, please stay. I'm going to tell you the truth. No, no, It's. I'm going to take ownership from my life. I release all obligation from you. Trying to be anything or to appease anything. You don't have to be anything. I just need you to know that through my actions, I'm going to own this. That's the owning. And it's still messy, but rapid change can take place.

[B]

And you'll know that your spouse is in this boat because they're going to say that they want to change, and they're literally going to do something about.

[A]

Check the schedule.

[B]

They're actually going to do, like, you might be like, oh, how do I know if they're honest? Like, okay, well, you're gonna know right away. Did they get off consumption? Because they're gonna freaking do that right after they listen to this episode with you. Okay, like, this isn't like 30 days from now. Like, hey, sweetie, you. Did you get off the consumption? Like that podcast we listen to? It's like, no, no, no. That's someone who's freaking dragging their feet. Like, somebody who says, I want to change and who's actually going to change is going to listen to this and implement what we teach. They're not going to keep dragging their feet. The second category, that's where a lot of people find themselves, are just, sweetie, sweetie, I want to change. I want to heal you. I hear you. I hear you. I hear you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I'm working on me. You working on you. I'll go to the counselor, I'll read the book, check the boxes, do the things. It's like, no, no, no. Are you doing these things? Did you delete your social medias? Did you take the TV off the wall? Did you set your alarm for 10 minutes earlier so you can do your embodiment practice. Did you actually sit down and journal all the stuff you've been hiding and lying about? And then when you went through that, did you choose to rewire your brain frame? Like, if your spouse is not sitting you down each night and telling you the things that he rewired, that they rewired. Maybe it's. I always say he, because that was our story, but maybe you're the wife that. That caused betrayal. Maybe both of you caused betrayal. A lot of people that come to our events, it is both husband and wife because you've been living in this toxic relationship for way too long, and you've been coping in a lot of ways. You both might need to sit down and go through the stuff that you need to rewire if your spouse is not sitting you down and telling you the things that they have been hiding and keeping a secret from and that they are rewiring. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Your spouse doesn't want to heal. Absolute red flag. I don't care if your spouse tells you all day long that you want it, that they want to heal. Like, I say this all the time. If you do not make changes, you do not change. So if you say, I want to change, I want to change, I want to change.

[A]

I'm going to sit here and play

[B]

video games and look at my phone and do this. It's like, nice try, but you're not going to change. You change. When you make changes, it's really simple, guys. So when people are like, Caitlin, how do I know if my husband wants to change? Is he making changes? Like, is he getting up off his butt and making changes to his life? Because he will stay exactly the same if he does not make changes. It's really quite simple. Like, your spouse needs to be doing something to make changes.

[A]

So in case I wasn't clear, there's one option is owning it and messy. The second one is saying they want to change and not doing anything, which is what Caitlin just described, will let you decide if you want to stay with that person. Like, kind of like if. If they're saying they want to do it, but nothing's actually happening. Yeah, that's why we gave a real practical list. And if you're in our program, that's what we say. Like, this is what we want. This is what we focus on here. So if you're not doing this, you're not doing it right. So you're not choosing into the marriage. You're not choosing into the repair.

[B]

You can't recreate it. Recreate a new marriage just by saying you want to change. You have to actually, literally recreate the new marriage. That's when you get to draw your line in the sand, because that's where we were. Brandon loved to talk about how much he wanted to heal and grow and change it. He wasn't putting in the work until he was. And guess what? That's when we saw the change. That's when we saw the growth. Right? That's when I drew my line in the sand and goes, whoa, I'm not doing this roller coaster circus show again. Like, we are changing and healing and growing together. Or I'm out because you already tapped out. Like the spouse that's unwilling to change, which. That's the third category we'll talk about. The spouse that's unwilling to change or even says they want to change but doesn't actually do anything, has already tapped out of the marriage. So we always want to point the finger at the one who actually signs the divorce papers, but it's actually the one who checked out. Yeah, you might not sign the divorce papers, but if you are unwilling to change or you say you want to change, but you don't actually do anything to change, you already signed the divorce papers energetically, emotionally, mentally, you tapped out of that marriage. And so if you're the wife that just needs to go, whoa, I'll sign the other half because you already did this, that might be the step you take because otherwise you're living in a marriage that cannot be recreated.

[A]

Third category. If you're not willing to change, if their spouse, if your spouse is not willing to put in the work or even say, like, I don't want to do these things, then you're at a, you're at a crossroads where you have to decide, are you going to protect your sanity in the marriage and all that comes with that, or are you going to subject. Subject yourself to continual suffering in a relationship where your spouse is not willing to change? After severe betrayal, you have to ask, why are you choosing to stay? Is my question for you. If it's, I can't provide for myself, I committed before God, I would, I would, would be with this person till death do this part. I would ask you to remove all obligation that comes from any outside source and say, do you actually have capacity to stay in a relationship with somebody that doesn't want to change? And is it actually a benefit for your kids or grandkids for them to see mom or dad suffering permanently because they're unwilling to stand up for themselves and take care of themselves because they've been subject to abuse for countless years. So if you're in a marriage where the spouse is unwilling to say, I would say that. Unwilling to change. I would say that you are in a place where divorce is the only option. If you're seeing them want to change and they're not doing it, that's when you got to have some real clear conversations. And if they're willing to own it, then divorce is an option. But it might be something that you wait on because you're actually like, you know, I'm gonna. For most times when there's been broken trust, a wait and see approach is really important. Caitlin was gonna sit. He's like, I'm seeing enough action that I'm willing to wait and see. I don't. You don't have my trust. You don't have my. You don't have my affection. Like, we're starting, like, on a honeymoon. I'm willing to see if you're going to keep this up over the long term and become a new person. After she saw and it wasn't. That's not an overnight thing, but she just saw it after conversation. Conversation of me breaking and me saying, I want to see, I want to get clear. She's like, I've never even seen this version of you. Yep, I'll unite to that. I'll. I can trust that I can come close to that. I'm willing to rebuild with that. So divorce becomes your only option when the spouse digs in their heels that I'm not changing or I'll change, but I am doing real change. I'm just going to tell you about it. If you're a couple that's like, we need support. We are not your saviors, by the way. Hi. We can't, we cannot save your marriage, but you can. And we do have ways that we empower couples to do that. If you're listening to this and you'd like to join us in person, we have our upcoming two day workshop in August 14th and 15th in San Diego. You can join us virtually or in person. Day one, it's me with the men. Not to tell you you're dumb, but to tell you you're powerful. I'll share my story with you. I'll give you tools you can get back in your body. Then day two, Caitlin and I are there together, facilitating husband and wife in a group, big group setting. We'll give you exercises you can do with each other. We'll give you breakthrough perspectives and spending two days together. It allows you to soak up so much information and if you are a couple, it's like, okay, that sounds great for August. I'll see you there. Is there any way you can help me today? And we can. We do have our our Couples program that will walk you through our Grounded Intimacy course, give you the daily prompts to heal from sexual addiction, the four Rs, all of that, as well as weekly coaching calls and other resources for you to do all the predictors of change and get the support from us on a daily basis. You can click the the link in the Show Notes to apply for a spot inside of our community app. We would love to have you there. I mean I do have my book that is almost done. It is like almost there. In fact, you can just go to seven steps book.com it's gonna be about the seven steps save your marriage. I'll try to have a pre order page ready so that you can see that book that's coming out. Look forward to sharing more about that with you guys. And welcome to Season four. We'll see you in episode two of Season four next week.