A Conversation of Humility and Surrender :: Jackie Hill Perry

Summary

The Grove Podcast: A Conversation of Humility and Surrender

Guest: Jackie Hill Perry | Host: Shelley Giglio
Release Date: July 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a rich and honest conversation between host Shelley Giglio and author, Bible teacher, and podcaster Jackie Hill Perry. Centered on the themes of humility, surrender, and daily trust in God, the dialogue explores Jackie’s experiences with motherhood, marriage, ministry, and personal growth. Through stories, vulnerable insights, and practical wisdom, listeners are encouraged to view their lives through the lens of God’s sovereignty, learn the art of dying to self, and embrace the process of spiritual transformation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Simplicity and Busyness Post-Pandemic

• Initial Reflection: Both Shelley and Jackie reminisce about pandemic times, contrasting the simplicity of that period with their current busyness.
  • Jackie shares, "I felt very holy...I had a lot more...a simple approach to life, I think." (01:22)
  • HOWEVER, she admits to re-filling her life with activity: "The older I get, the more addicted to busy I get." (02:25)
• Insight: The struggle with equating rest to laziness and unlearning the inherited need to always be productive.

2. Motherhood and Calling

• Dream and Early Motherhood: Jackie recounts a formative dream while pregnant with her first child, Eden, in which she was “speaking life into dying women, holding a little girl.” (03:59)
  • She interprets this as God’s assurance: "Just because you've gotten pregnant with this child, it's not going to necessarily hinder your ministry. The child's going to be a part of the ministry." (04:24)
• Integration of Roles: Jackie describes her efforts to balance ministry with mothering, intentionally engaging her children in her theological life.
  • "My children seeing me do ministry is parenting, too." (04:49)
  • On homeschooling: "I try to teach twice a month, just the theology courses...that's one of my ways to just give them all of my attention theologically." (06:11)
• Healthy Rhythms & Stewardship: Acknowledging the impossibility of perfect balance, Jackie shares her commitment to both her family and the larger Christian community.

3. Mentorship and Simple Godliness

• The Role of Mentors: Jackie highlights her desire to deeply know God—a desire she attributes to God's kindness and transformative power.
  • "God gives us a new heart...He really does raise people from the dead." (07:19)
• Living Out Godliness: She prefers “simple godliness” modeled in everyday choices (honor over sarcasm, for example) to flashy spirituality.
  • "What about when your husband is irking you and you choose honor before sarcasm?" (07:57)

4. Living Out Humility in Leadership

• A Painful Choice: Jackie vulnerably shares about a recent conversation where she humbled herself despite feeling misunderstood.
  • "I tried to get as low as possible, and I got off the phone and cried, just wept. And I felt like...this is the stuff people don't see...the pain that comes with dying to yourself." (09:19)
• Leadership Example: She recounts a mentor’s humility—Brian Dye, the founder of a major conference, who quietly served as a bus driver without seeking recognition (11:02).
  • "That's the kind of humility that leadership is supposed to look like...He could have flexed, but he chose not to." (12:10)
• Security in Identity: Drawing parallels with Jesus, Jackie highlights that true servanthood flows from security, not from a need for human recognition.
  • "This was Jesus's conscious context before he decided to wash feet...He was secure." (13:44)

5. The Reluctant Devotionalist: Writing 'Upon Waking'

• Jackie discusses her resistance to writing a devotional, perceiving the genre as "too cute, too shallow."
  • "Devotionals have always come across as too cute for me...that's actually not how life is. Especially life as a disciple. Life as a disciple is narrow, hard, deep, confusing, perplexing..." (15:01–15:32)
• Her Approach: Jackie wanted to write a devotional that addressed real struggles and invited readers into honest, deep reflection.
  • "What would it look like to communicate these quip-like sayings...that actually match the reality of a disciple?" (15:29)
• Creation Process: The challenge of distilling profound truths into brief daily readings was greater than expected: "Now, it was supposed to be 90 days, but that thing was harder than I suspected." (16:10)

6. Addressing Hard Questions: The Prosperity of the Wicked

• Tackling Envy and Suffering: Jackie bravely dives into difficult topics in her devotional, such as why the wicked seem to prosper.
  • Quoting from Day 10: "If the wicked don't have God, even if they have everything, they have nothing." (18:53)
• Personal Application: Jackie relates these themes to real struggles, like infertility among friends, highlighting the need to trust God’s goodness regardless of visible blessings.
  • "God has the freedom to choose if my grass is greener or not...and it doesn't mean that he doesn't love you...He is being good to you in the way that he believes is best." (20:04)
• Envy’s Destructiveness:
  • "Envy is a nasty sin. I've seen it destroy people…It makes you an idol worshiper." (21:14, 22:04)
  • The antidote: gratitude for what God has given and viewing suffering through the vantage point of God’s sovereignty.

7. Daily Devotion: Law, Liberty, and Worship

• Jackie notes two unhealthy extremes: making devotional time a religious law or making it so flexible that it’s only sought in crisis (26:05–26:42).
• Healthy Motivation:
  • "Because I am in Christ, I am accepted, I am loved, I am known...I don't have to read the Bible to be accepted, but...I want to read the Bible so that I can know this God who accepted me." (26:52)
  • "It's not liberty or law, it's just worship." (27:13)

8. Marriage, Friendship, and Complementary Gifting

• Difficult Start, Lasting Friendship: Jackie and her husband, Preston, were friends for three years before marriage; early years were tough until intimacy was restored through simply talking (28:25).
  • "When we just started talking and then laughing and then enjoying, that somehow re-established our intimacy." (29:08)
• Complementary Gifts: Differences in temperament and gifting strengthen their relationship.
  • "I'm much more organized, administrative, entrepreneurial...he's the, 'This is what I want to do, I don't know how I'm going to do it.'...He often feels more human than me...He is willing and open and emotionally available in ways that I have to go to therapy [for]." (33:57–34:18)
• Impact: Preston’s emotional availability helps Jackie confront her own guardedness.

9. The Challenge of Trust and God as Protector

• Slow to Trust People: Jackie candidly admits to being slow to trust others due to past wounding (35:13–35:23).
  • "My self-protection defenses...underneath that is some level of unbelief. Because if I am constantly guarding myself from everybody, then at some level I don't believe that God is a good enough protector." (36:10)
• Personal Healing:
  • Jackie describes a powerful moment realizing that her father's absence—even with its pain—was actually part of God’s protection:
    • "Your dad not being in your life was my protection...Imagine what kind of woman you would have been being around a man that did not honor women." (38:47)
  • She's now intentionally learning to entrust herself to God’s keeping.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Simplicity and the Pandemic:

  • "I felt very holy. You did. Because I wasn't as busy, so I felt more...a simple approach to life, I think." – Jackie Hill Perry (01:22)

• On Integration of Family and Ministry:

  • "My children seeing me do ministry is parenting, too." – Jackie Hill Perry (04:49)

• On Simple Godliness:

  • "What about when your husband is irking you and you choose honor before sarcasm? That simple godliness is what you see in people that live next to you." – Jackie Hill Perry (07:57)

• On Hidden Leadership:

  • "That's the kind of humility that leadership is supposed to look like, where I'm not committed to my own praise or my own glory...he could have flexed, but he chose not to." – Jackie Hill Perry (12:10)

• On Devotional Writing:

  • "Devotionals have always come across as too cute for me...that's actually not how life is. Especially life as a disciple. Life as a disciple is narrow, hard, deep..." – Jackie Hill Perry (15:10)

• On Suffering and Gratitude:

  • "If the wicked don't have God, even if they have everything, they have nothing." – (Jackie quoted in devotional, read by Shelley, 18:53)
  • "God has the freedom to choose if my grass is greener or not...that's what it means for him to be God." – Jackie Hill Perry (20:04)

• On Trust and God’s Protection:

  • "If I am constantly guarding myself from everybody, then at some level I don't believe that God is a good enough protector." – Jackie Hill Perry (36:10)
  • "Your dad not being in your life was my protection...the Lord actually used the absentee father energy to keep me from what that man could have shown me." – Jackie Hill Perry (38:47)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:22 – Jackie on simplicity during COVID
• 03:59 – Jackie’s dream about motherhood and ministry
• 06:11 – Intentional theological teaching to her children
• 07:57 – The value of “simple godliness”
• 09:19 – Real-life example of humbling herself in leadership conflict
• 11:02 – Story of Brian Dye’s humility at a conference
• 15:01–15:32 – On why devotionals felt inadequate to Jackie—and her approach to writing one
• 18:53 – Excerpt from devotion about envy and the prosperity of the wicked
• 20:04 – Application of those themes to suffering and trust in God
• 26:52 – The right motivation for spending time in the Word
• 28:25–29:08 – Jackie and Preston restoring friendship in marriage
• 33:57–34:18 – Differences in personality and gifts between Jackie and Preston
• 36:10 – Struggle to trust people and learning to trust God as protector
• 38:47 – Realization of God’s protection through father’s absence
• 41:19 – Jackie’s closing prayer over listeners

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Final Encouragement & Takeaway

Jackie Hill Perry’s vulnerability and practical wisdom offer encouragement for living a life of surrendered trust, rooted in humility and honest self-examination. Listeners are reminded that God is present in their pain, trustworthy in every circumstance, and desires to transform not just habits but hearts. The episode is rich for anyone navigating the tensions of calling, family, partnership, and personal history—and offers hope that the process of sanctification is ongoing but utterly possible through the kindness and power of God.

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For more from Jackie Hill Perry, follow her on Instagram @jackiehillperry and listen to the “With the Perrys” podcast.

Transcript

[Signa Coleman]

Foreign. Hey, friends, and welcome back to the Grove Podcast. I'm Signa Coleman, and today we're diving into episode four of our summer recap series. If you're a Grove girl, chances are you already know today's guest. Jackie Hill Perry has been a longtime friend of the Grove, and we're so excited to revisit this conversation with her. As an author, Bible teacher, and podcaster, Jackie has encouraged so many of us, and in this episode, she's sitting down with Shelley Giglio to talk about motherhood, marriage, ministry, and the daily process of learning to trust God more deeply. It is a rich, honest, and deeply encouraging conversation. So let's get started.

[Shelley Giglio]

Welcome to the Grove Podcast, Jackie Hill Perry, who is one of our favorites. You've been here a few times.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I have.

[Shelley Giglio]

We were laughing about how much stuff we did during COVID together. It felt like you were here a lot.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I was pregnant every time you were

[Shelley Giglio]

pregnant, and we had masks on, and it was so weird, and we were all separated and, you know, weirdness, but it felt like you're in Atlanta and I'm in Atlanta. It was a good season.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. Okay.

[Shelley Giglio]

Because we got to do some fun things together and. Yeah. Weird times, but simpler times in some ways, too.

[Signa Coleman]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I felt very holy. You did. Because I wasn't as. I wasn't as busy, so I felt more. I had a lot more. A simple approach to life, I think,

[Shelley Giglio]

during the pandemic, you know, one of the things about coming back from that. And we don't have to dwell on the pandemic for this whole time, but I didn't want to lose a lot of that simplicity, and I fought hard coming out of it to not just go right back to filling my life with so much stuff. I feel like now, I don't know. I think it's probably full of a lot of stuff. Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I definitely filled it back or whatever, because some of it was like, I missed it committed. I missed being busy.

[Signa Coleman]

Did you really?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I did. That's a part of my own, I think, nurturing that I have to work through, which is that my. I have a thing in my brain where sometimes if I'm not doing something, I feel lazy.

[Shelley Giglio]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And that's just because my mother is a busybody. And so even when I was at the house, like, she like, oh, you just gonna lay on the couch all day, like you can do something.

[Shelley Giglio]

And so you've always felt like, I need to be busy.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

The older I get, the more. The more addicted to busy I get.

[Shelley Giglio]

Well, that should work well, because you got four kids.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Exactly. Which is crazy.

[Shelley Giglio]

It is crazy, because when I met you, I think you had one, probably. And. And that's changed a lot in your life. Talk about how. Don't talk about having four kids because a lot of people have four kids. Talk about how you have four kids and you still still feel like you're living in your calling, committed to the larger story. I feel like so many people fill that season of their life, particularly when their kids are small and I don't have kids, so it's really easy for me to say so. Y' all can all just judge and dismiss. It's fine. I get it. But I feel like so many people spend that season of their life talking about the management of their kids, and it's a lot. And everyone who has kids knows it's a lot. But I feel like when I'm around you, and this probably isn't always the case, I'm sure there are many seasons where you do talk a lot about what's going on with your kids, but I feel like there's a superseding storyline that somehow, by the grace of God, is the only way for sure you've been able to stay on and maintain and still have a great husband, a great family. Talk about that and that dedication to that storyline.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

When I got pregnant with Eden, my first child, I got pregnant on my honeymoon.

[Shelley Giglio]

Amazing.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Which meant that I immediately had to figure stuff out. And I had this dream before I even knew her gender. I had a dream where I was in a room and there were dying women all around, and I had this little girl in my arms, and I was speaking life into the dead women while holding the little girl.

[Shelley Giglio]

Wow.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And.

[Shelley Giglio]

Wow.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I woke up and I felt like the Lord was saying, like, just because you. You. You gotten pregnant with this child, it's not going to necessarily hinder your ministry. The child's going to be a part of the ministry. And I think that kind of anchored me from the beginning where it's. I'm not necessarily going to stop doing what I believe God has called me to do. I'm obviously stewarded in a different way because I could do way more than what I do, Right?

[Shelley Giglio]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

But to me, it's like my children seeing me do ministry is parenting, too. And so I think that's helped me to just have a sense of, I don't know, healthy rhythm when it comes to. To serving them and serving the larger Christian community.

[Shelley Giglio]

I feel like you don't sacrifice them at all. I never feel like they're less than I think so many people in ministry are so conflicted because they feel like they pick the church or their ministry over their family or their kids. I don't feel like that I don't have a sense in you that that's the priority at all. But I have a sense that you have a stewardship of both. And that while balance isn't possible, like, I'm gonna have the exact right amount of weight in this category and the exact right amount of weight on this category, and that's all gonna just even out perfectly. That's a misnomer. We know that doesn't exist. But you seem like you're leveraged for the things that matter with people that you really feel like you're stewards of somewhat.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Cause it's a struggle. It is a struggle because when I come home, oftentimes I want to be quiet. But it's like, I can't be out here writing books, teaching people. And my children don't at least know a couple scriptures, right? And so there's always this tension of, am I giving them less than what I give everybody else?

[Shelley Giglio]

That's great.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so that was one of the reasons why, when we moved to a homeschool situation, and I. I am not leading the homeschool. Our nanny is. But I try to teach twice a month, just the theology courses. Cause I'm like, if I do math, y' all ain't gonna be smart. So we gonna do theology in a smidge of history with Mama. And so that's one of my ways to just give them all of my attention theologically.

[Shelley Giglio]

That's very intentional on your part, I think, to say God's made me a steward of this over my kids and to help my kids. And you've had people in your life, I know, in history that have really taught you what, like to be a learner of God. Yeah, like a true. I don't just want to know facts about God. I want to know God, and I want to learn his character. I want to know how to relate to him as it relates to his character. So talk about that process a little bit, because I think you've had a lot of mentors in your life, but you've also had. I think you've had very intentional desire to become a person who understands God well.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

1. I think the desire really is God's kindness, because that's what regeneration does. It's. God gives us a new heart. When God changes people, he really does change people. And I think it's encouraging to not only experience that in myself, but to see it in others where it's like, oh, he really does raise people from the dead. Like, you don't have to have a form of God godliness. You really can have power to. To put sin and all the things to death. And I think I've experienced that up close when it comes to my husband or when it comes to someone like my mentor, one of my mentors, Melody, who. It's the simple godliness that they show because we see a lot of big Billy Graham godliness, Benny Hinn throwing coats godliness, if we want to call that godliness. But like, what about when your husband is irking you and you choose honor before sarcasm? That simple godliness is what I. What you see in people that live next to you. You know what I'm saying? And that's the type of stuff that I'm trying to figure out and model,

[Shelley Giglio]

I think to see models of that. People that are striving, that are dying to themselves in the same way. You know, they might just be slightly ahead of you in the process, but somehow they're in the process and that their desire is. Is like yours in that way. They want to. To move past the form of godliness.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Shelley Giglio]

To true godliness. And that's a painful, hard. I mean, dying to self is.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. I had a conversation yesterday, let's talk about it. Where I. Child, I had to humble myself so low in a. In a. It was a. It was a leadership conversation where, you know, someone had a perspective on things that I didn't think was necessarily true or real, but I felt like the Lord was saying, lead in humility in this moment. And so I tried to get by the. I pray. I said, lord, give me strength. I tried to get as low as possible, and I got off the phone and cried, just wept. And I felt like I was like, this is the stuff people don't see, you know what I'm saying? The pain that comes with dying to yourself. But it's like, this is also the stuff that is motivated by faith. Because in this moment, the only person that sees how this feels is Jesus.

[Shelley Giglio]

That's right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And I have to believe that one day he's going to say, remember when you was on the phone with that person and they didn't honor your humility? I saw you.

[Shelley Giglio]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know, and so.

[Shelley Giglio]

And he chose the right thing, even though it was easier to do something different.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Shelley Giglio]

You know, you're like, you crazy.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

He chose to go instead of gaslighting would have been yeah.

[Shelley Giglio]

I'm saying you have a great brain, Jackie. You have a pretty good ability to articulate. You're real committed to the truth. So I can see in a situation where you feel like some of those things are being misrepresented, that the easiest part of you would be to just bow up and I can basically slay you right here with my words, with my knowledge, with my understanding. And then who's going to feel bad? Not me. But you instead chose the low road, which we should talk about that for the rest of the podcast, probably of what that looks like to humble yourself.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Now, listen, Jackie, don't be humble to herself all the time. Okay?

[Shelley Giglio]

So that was yesterday, but not today.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That was the Holy Ghost power in that moment. But that's because my. My. A big model of humility for me is my husband.

[Shelley Giglio]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And Brian died. Brian Dye was my boss and my pastor when I lived in Chicago. I don't know if I ever told this story.

[Shelley Giglio]

I don't think so. I don't know.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It 1. Brian had a conference called Legacy Disciple would have about 1500 people come to Chicago to learn how, you know, to disciple people in urban communities. Brian was driving the transportation bus that would help people. Like, he was driving one of the shuttles that helped people get to the school and all the things. And he told us, his wife told us, actually, because he wouldn't tell us. His wife said one of the guests on the bus came up to him and was trying to be, like, courteous or whatever. He's like, hey, man, even though nobody knows your name, nobody sees your face, and you're just driving this shuttle. We see you, bro. God. God sees you. Right? He doesn't realize that Brian is the CEO of this conference. Now, the gag would have been for Brian to say, yeah, you know I'm Brian Dye, right? Brian just said, thank you. That is the kind of humility that leadership is supposed to look like, where I'm not. Like, I'm not. I'm not committed to my own praise or my own glory, even in way like, he could have flexed, but he chose not to. And I think that story has sat in the back of my mind ever since I heard it, which is like a great one. What does real humble leadership look like? It looks quiet.

[Shelley Giglio]

Yeah. And I think, you know, you said flex. I think so many of us have such need for recognition and for understanding and for position, and we're so dependent on somebody understanding who we are so that we can be okay, that we're just waiting for somebody to ask so that we can tell them. Instead of. With Brian knowing. And I don't know him, but he sounds like an incredible person. Instead of him knowing. I have all of that. God has already chosen me, called me, sent me, and put me in this position. I had nothing to do with it. And the more you know how little you had to do with it, the more likely you are to just let the praise go right by. That's amazing, because I'm not here to just get honored by you. I've been honored by God in a way that's much larger than that. And I just think that when that settles, truly settles in your heart, it just frees you. It frees all the people around you to not have to be accommodating of your pride all the time.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. No, that's because what you're saying, you're speaking to a security. Because it reminds me of when Jesus, before he washed their feet in John 15, 16, 17, one of them, where it says, knowing who he was and knowing where he was going. Right. And I love that John decided to say that. Like, this is. This was Jesus's conscious context before he decided to wash feet.

[Shelley Giglio]

There you go.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

He was secure.

[Shelley Giglio]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so he didn't necessarily need to do the most.

[Shelley Giglio]

Yeah. I wanted to talk to you, to you about this book because one of my favorite things is when in life we end up doing what we say we're not going to do. And, I mean, God has done it to me a million times. I have said I won't live places, and I've lived 10 years there. I've said I'll never lead women's ministry, and by goodness, if I'm not leading, you know, and so I think a, we'd be wise to just shut our mouths, as, you know, we just mentioned. But we don't always do that. But one of the things I felt like you were pretty sure of is that you would not write a devotional book. You didn't. You just didn't feel like that was part of what you were going to be doing in life.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

But.

[Shelley Giglio]

But I. I'll just say that I really love this one.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I like how you're holding it. This is my favorite. It's like Vanna Wyatt, one of my favorite devotionals.

[Shelley Giglio]

And it's strangely, by Jackie Hill Perry.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So I talk about the process. Yeah.

[Shelley Giglio]

Of understanding. And I want to read something out of here, too, because there is some of the most powerful words in here. Jackie. It's 60 days worth. And I want to talk about why? 60 days is important. But I also really just want you to talk about a process of you going from. I'm not interested in doing that. So you know what? I think I will.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So devotionals have always come across as too cute for me. You know, got flowers.

[Shelley Giglio]

You're not really cute.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Like, I'm cute, but I ain't like flower petal, hobby, lobby cute. Right.

[Shelley Giglio]

You know, I don't think you have to be.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm not that. I'm H and M free people, anthropology, cute. And so I think. I think it's always felt superficial.

[Shelley Giglio]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Shallow, easy.

[Shelley Giglio]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And that's actually not how life is.

[Shelley Giglio]

No.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Especially life as a disciple. Life as a disciple is narrow, hard, deep, confusing, perplexing, befuddling, difficult. Right. And so it's like, man, what. What. What would it look like to communicate these quip like sayings and thoughts or whatever in a way that actually match the reality of a disciple? And so when the publisher came to me in acts, I was like, yeah, nah. And then I was like, okay, why don't you write what you want to see do it? And so I did it. Now, it was supposed to be 90 days, but that thing was harder than I suspected.

[Shelley Giglio]

It is very difficult to do that.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Have you wrote a devotional show?

[Shelley Giglio]

No, but I've been around a lot of writing of books, and it's not easy. It is not an easy process to write a devotional book because there's too much content that needs to be squeezed out to make it really, I think, receivable daily. And so you really have to work hard on the editing process to get down to the crux of the matter. And then sometimes the crux is so direct that then you're like, I don't know if anybody would want to wake up in the morning and read that. Feels like, my gosh. But I feel like what you did is you're totally Jackie in it. Your words are so nothing got lost. And your personality and your leadership style and everything is so present in it. Your directness, your call to the deep. It doesn't feel like, oh, man, here's a page and a half of some water, you know, so good luck with your day and God bless you. It doesn't feel like that. It feels like you poured your heart and soul into it. And it feels like we can receive something that really helps. So I want to read one of the chapters, which I love. This is the kind of stuff you talk about, which makes me laugh as well. You're talking about wickedness. This Is, I think, day 10. And it talks about why do the wicked seem to prosper.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Ain't that crazy for day 10 to be about wickedness?

[Shelley Giglio]

Do people not write things things and books about it? I mean, I love Jackie Hil Perry's

[Jackie Hill Perry]

like, let's talk about it.

[Shelley Giglio]

Can we just talk about why the wicked prosper?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No, that's. That's facts.

[Shelley Giglio]

I love it. And I think the way you wrote it and the directness of it and. And just. I think it includes everybody because you start talking about. I know we've all noticed how it seems like people who choose to do things not God's way get ahead. And I ask God a lot, what's up with that? I ask other people, what am I not doing right? They're getting ahead, and I'm back here trying to do things God's way. And I feel set back from that. The very end of this says, what's interesting is how the suffering saints envy because they're distracted. It's only when they turn their gaze from God and look at the wicked that they covet. When they look at God, though, they discern. But when I thought, how I understand this, it seems to be a wearisome task until I went into the sanctuary of God. Then I discerned their end. Truly, you set them in slippery places. You make them fall to ruin. That's Psalm 73, 16, 18. The trials of life might not lift when the suffering saints refocus their gaze, but they become wise as a result, able to see grace everywhere. Like David who said of himself and God, I am continually with you. My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. If the wicked don't have God, even if they have everything, they have nothing.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yep. Ain't that something?

[Shelley Giglio]

Jackie, that makes me like, I've read that so many times because it's so powerfully said. And I just feel like today we have a chance just to talk, which I love. But I also feel like you're carrying so much of this kind of wisdom inside of you that it doesn't feel like you're afraid to take on things that are questions that are confusing. It doesn't feel like that you're nervous about how God will resolve. Feels like you're bold enough to ask and then committed enough to try to seek.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, I think a chapter like that comes out of observing people struggle.

[Shelley Giglio]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Particularly friends of mine who were wrestling with infertility for years. Praying, fasting, seeking, doing all the things. And then there's people who didn't even want to be parents getting pregnant, you know, And I think I empathized and really tried to live in what that must feel like to be faithful and yet not even see the same kinds of blessings. Right. And I think what David is describing is something significant where it's like, man, like God has the freedom to choose if my grass is greener or not. That's what it means for him to be God. That's what it means for him to be Lord. And it doesn't mean that he doesn't love you. It doesn't mean that he doesn't see you. It just means that he is being good to you in the way that he believes is best. And I just wanted to help, I guess, push people towards a view of God that reckons him as God. You get what I'm saying?

[Shelley Giglio]

Like, yes, it's a repositioning.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

We have to see him as he is. And that then influences how we see all the things that we go through.

[Shelley Giglio]

That's right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because envy is a nasty sin. It's a n. I've seen it destroy people.

[Shelley Giglio]

It's a real hidden sin. And so sometimes before it's revealed, it's too late. Because people can covet and envy people and it not be super obvious that that's what's happening. And so it's harder for people to interrupt the process and saints alongside them to say, hey, I see you really coveting. It's really hard to recognize. But I think in us, it's a deteriorating, destroying sin. And the erosion, the inside erosion of what happens because of covetedness of anyone's life, whether it's a saint or somebody who doesn't yet believe is destructive.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It will make you joyless. And the discontentment, because that's ultimately what's happening, is that there's this discontentment that's happening. It makes you an idol worshiper. So when you go to Romans 1, one of the things you see is that those who God calls foolish are those who will look at all God has made and not thank him for it. Right?

[Shelley Giglio]

Yes.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so if you have life and breath and friendships, a home, a bed, joy, food, fun, but you see the one thing you don't have, that's it. Then what you end up missing out on is being thankful for the stuff like the fact that you have goodness at all.

[Shelley Giglio]

Yeah, it's a miracle, is a grace. This isn't grace.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right. And so I think. I think the enemy and I think the flesh sets us up to be people who just aren't grateful, which makes us idol worshipers. But God, in his kindness has given us the scriptures, given us the power of the Holy Spirit to just man, like, let's just start saying thank you.

[Shelley Giglio]

Yeah, let's wake up and start. And let's use the filter of God as more than just an understanding that he exists, but a vantage point for what we see everything else through. And I think, you know, we talk about, even with struggles, suffering. You can look at suffering a couple of ways. You can look at suffering and have God back here, or you can look at God and still have your suffering.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's good.

[Shelley Giglio]

Those are your options. Either way, the suffering's there. Probably not going to get removed instantly just because you see God. But when you see your suffering through God, your suffering looks way different than it does if your suffering is in front of it. And I feel like somehow what you were able to do for us and really the truth throughout this book is similar. I could read any chapter and it could be that powerful. I think you're just helping us reframe. You're helping put a vantage point of God before whatever it is. The struggle is that we seem to be so deeply in. And when we have that vantage point, I think everything in life looks completely different. And so. Thank you. Yeah, because, I mean, not resisting the devotional for so long that we didn't get one God, is that actually just coming on through?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

God is great to give me 60 days instead of 90.

[Shelley Giglio]

Hey, there is a thing about 60 days, though. You know this to be true.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Like, I think, well, oh, the, like the habit. Yeah, I heard of it. Yeah.

[Shelley Giglio]

I feel like it's like 66 days because I remember one time we did a devotional and we did 66. But I think the misnomer and even when people walk through, like rehabs and whatever was if you go for 30 days and you get out, you're going to be set free. And so many times that wasn't the case. People would go right back into their addiction. And I think long term, we've discovered that's not near long enough for one thing. 30 days really doesn't reset your brain in the right pathways to healing. But that's interesting. But I think it also takes a long time to set a habit in place. And I feel like 60 is the range in which if somebody were really to read this for 60 days, they're going to want more and it's establishing something in them. The routine of God's word and the truth before everything else. I love that. It's called a porn waking. I know people can read it anytime. You can read it at night, you don't have to read it in the morning. But I think there's something pretty powerful about setting God before you. Before you.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes, yes. It's important.

[Shelley Giglio]

It changed my whole life. I've read scripture my whole life. I've read it all times of day, and I still do. But when I started reading scripture first, before I literally did anything else or read anything else, like no news, no social media pop up, the first go round, just the Word and then put everything else in perspective. Yeah, it really helped me.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. Because I think one thing that people can struggle with is making. Either making or growing up in a tradition where devotional time and Bible study was a law. Yeah.

[Shelley Giglio]

It was a very much a religious activity.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes. Like, that's what you do to make God happy with you and all the things. And then some of us rebel against that and live in liberty, where we just get in the Word whenever we feel like it. Right.

[Shelley Giglio]

Or whenever we're in trouble.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And that's not healthy either. I think. These are not. These are two extreme.

[Shelley Giglio]

Every call on God can't be for help. Not every single one.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

These are two extremes. And so I think. I think having a theological understanding of justification is helpful here.

[Shelley Giglio]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That because I am in Christ, I am accepted, I am loved, I am known. Right. And so I don't have to read the Bible to be accepted, but knowing that I'm accepted should open me up to want to read the Bible so that I can know this God who accepted me. Right. And so it's not liberty or law, it's just worship.

[Shelley Giglio]

That is so good. Jackie, talk a little bit about you and Preston, because I feel like I'm so intrigued by the two of you.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

We are intriguing.

[Shelley Giglio]

I like you both so much. You're so different. You're both very unique people. You're both highly gifted people. You're both very called people. I wouldn't say the calling is exactly the same. I wouldn't say that the gifting looks alike. I wouldn't really even say that you guys even personality wise are that much alike. But, man, watching you be married is just awesome to me. And the good news is that a lot of people can watch it because you do a ton of stuff on stories we do. Y' all do podcasts that are amazing.

[Signa Coleman]

I.

[Shelley Giglio]

I think marriage is obviously one of the hardest things we'll do on Earth. And Jesus equates it so much to his relationship with the church. And we understand that that's not an easy relationship either. And so talk about you guys. You've been married 10 years now, got a few kids, got a full calling. I feel like you bless each other in the most healthy ways.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I think one element of me and Preston's marriage that people really are seeing is the friendship.

[Shelley Giglio]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because we were friends for three years before we got together. And when we first got married, we became enemies.

[Shelley Giglio]

That happens oftentimes.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. I didn't like him, he didn't like me. It was rough. And we had this situation where we were living in Chicago. We didn't have a lot of money and our cable went out. And you know, every night we mad at each other, but we gonna watch, you know, whatever that zombie show was that everybody was watching. And so we watched stuff. And so when. When we didn't have cable, it put us in a position where we had to just talk again. And it was crazy. What happened is that when we just started talking and then laughing and then enjoying that somehow re established our intimacy. And I think God and his kindness has preserved that through counsel, discipleship, therapy, all the things. But I think that's what people are seeing is that I love him, but he's also my friend. Like, he really is my friend. And so it's like I'm a roof of him because he's my friend. I'm a respect and value him because he's my friend. Now the way I show up as his friend is obviously different because I'm also his wife. Right. I have four of his babies. We do stuff at home. All the stuff. And by stuff, I mean stuff. But like, yeah, you just see you seeing two lovers who are also friends.

[Shelley Giglio]

I think your friendship is beautiful to watch because it feels like there's so much mutual respect. You mentioned that. Just. I know it's not always easy to choose respect. It feels like sometimes it's easier to clarify and help them understand your point of view more than it is to just give respect.

[Signa Coleman]

Right.

[Shelley Giglio]

So that's part of the refinement that I think God's talking about. When it comes to marriage, the person that's the closest to you is by far the most difficult. That is part of us having a lot of rough edges filed. And I know Preston has plenty. I know you have plenty. But I love that God chose to bring refinement to your life through somebody who is fun, somebody who is light hearted. I mean, it's just when you're around him, you just sense that he Just carries the weight of the world lightly. Does that make sense?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

For sure.

[Shelley Giglio]

But it's not that it's not serious. I also love that Preston's an evangelist. 100%.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Shelley Giglio]

He cannot go anywhere without having a conversation with somebody about Jesus.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's God's grace that we have TSA PreCheck because, you know, because you need to be in the airport. You know, the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah's Witnesses are outside the gate, outside the door. And that. That brother will stop and talk to these people. And it's like, bro, we got a flight. But I guess because we got here early, I guess you could do some ministry. And so. But it's so indicative. I'm always intrigued by how giftings coincide with personality. It's just a fascinating thing for me because I think even before he was filled with the spirit, like, he was a free person. He was a people. Like, his dad was a car salesman, right? Totally. I'm not saying evangelism is like car salesman, but his car salesman energy is like.

[Shelley Giglio]

And the people part of it is like that. Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So it's like when he was filled with the Holy Spirit. Now it's like on a mission. It's like your personality and your gift just work together to just push the mission of God. It's interesting.

[Shelley Giglio]

I love it because I think it takes to me. You have a platform gift now. Yeah. We're sitting in a chair today just talking to each other, which I love. You sit on your sofa and talk to Preston and do podcasts. I love. It feels like we have access to you in ways that are very normal, but your calling puts you on platforms for the most part. You're gonna be preaching somewhere, you're gonna be teaching somewhere, you're gonna be at passion. I'm gonna be looking at you from seats way over here. That's kind of a part of what God's put as an anointing on your life. I feel like Preston's complimentary anointing of I'm walking with people, watching people walk toward a hallway that I'm trying to run into so that I can talk to them about their purpose in life and whatever Jesus might wanna do in their heart, that is such a complimentary gift to yours. And I feel like God is so wise.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

He is.

[Shelley Giglio]

When we don't know what we want, we don't even know what we're looking for. We wouldn't know to ask him for that if we even knew that was an option. But in his wisdom, he gives us, I think, what we need. Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I think temperaments are a beautiful thing, how God merges them. Because I was talking to somebody the other day and I was saying how, like, God often puts. God will often give you a spouse or a partner. This is my assumption, but also my experience, because I only been married 10 years, for me. But it seems as if God will often give people partners that have something that they don't have.

[Shelley Giglio]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

But also have something that they need.

[Shelley Giglio]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And when it comes to me and Preston, I think there's the spiritual, you know, body equipping gifts, but then there's the really practical stuff. Like, I am much more organized, administrative, entrepreneurial, vision casting, but also implementation person. He's the. This is what I want to do. I don't know how I'm going to do it. I just. I'm really excited. And so, like, I can come alongside then and say, such a gift. Let's organize this. Let's implement this. This is the team, the plan to

[Shelley Giglio]

actually get it done.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

All the things right. And so. But he's also. He often feels more human than me. And I mean by that.

[Shelley Giglio]

What do you mean by that?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm a human.

[Shelley Giglio]

Thank you for. For clarification.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

We need an alien, but he accesses his tenderness quicker than I do.

[Shelley Giglio]

Wow.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

He. He. He is willing and open and emotionally available in ways that. That I have to go to therapy to. To work through. Right. And so that's what. That's what I need. Like, I was like, imagine me with a husband who is emotionally unavailable. Yeah.

[Shelley Giglio]

That would be hard.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I wouldn't grow and I wouldn't get to know the person that trauma had me bury. And so I think having him has made me just have to come out of my shell and stop being scared. I'm still scared in many ways, but I'm not as scared as I used to be because of him.

[Shelley Giglio]

That's amazing. Talk about trust. And we'll kind of finish with this because I think this is a big thing. I don't know that I can dissect it in a way that will help make sense, but maybe you can make sense of it. I feel like you're. You're a slow to trust people person.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Absolutely. Shelly Giglio.

[Shelley Giglio]

That's not. You're. You're not gonna go on out there and trust somebody before you know that they're trustworthy.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

People are liars.

[Shelley Giglio]

Yes. A lot of them are.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I give it to you. Sinful. It's. It's.

[Shelley Giglio]

And it's true. And it is hard and it is one of the hardest things in life when you put your trust in someone and get devastated or disappointed by them. So that's a real thing. I feel like, how does that not bleed over then, on your relationship with God? Because when I watch you pursue God, I don't see you as being distrustful. I don't see you as being reticent. I don't see you as being. I'm not sure about this, but when I watch you with people, and I've had a longer period of time now because I've known you for a while, to see some of that, I do see that. So how do you. How, how is one really probably your trust of God helping you overcome.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's excellent.

[Shelley Giglio]

Some of your distrust in people.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's an excellent question. I talked to my therapist about this yesterday because what I'm continually learning is that my self protection defenses are like, underneath that is some level of unbelief. Because if I am constantly guarding myself from everybody, then at some level I don't believe that God is a good enough protector. So I have to protect myself because you won't. Right. And I think there's an element where it's like, well, I mean, when my daddy hurt me, where were you? When the kids bullied me, where were you? When, when the people abandoned me, where were you? And I'm. It's not that I blame God. It's not that I, I think he was mean. It's just I think that did something to my brain where I lied to myself and said I'm the only person that can protect me.

[Shelley Giglio]

And so this is so good.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I think that's where the, that's where the distrust is. And so now I'm in a place where I'm trying to figure out. I told the Lord this a year ago. I said, I know you're the Lord of hosts. Like, you're, you're the warrior God. And I need you to help me believe that you are a better protector than I am of my own self. Yeah, I need your help in that. And one of the ways he did it, I shared this on a previous podcast is I said, lord, show me where in my pain you were actually protecting me. And I had.

[Shelley Giglio]

So go back to some of those places you just mentioned.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes. Like, like, because I'm like, you say you're a protector, you say you're a rock, you say you're, you're a strong tower. But where was that energy when there

[Shelley Giglio]

was pain, when I needed it? Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So I know you don't change, but I don't. I'm not making the connection. And I had this random conversation with my brother on my dad's side. My dad was in and out of my life. Would show up for a year, be gone for two years, show up for six months, be gone for three years. So I developed this. People leave, People abandon. People say they love you, but they really don't. Right. So I had this random conversation with my brother from on that side of my family. Me and him haven't talked since my dad died in 2008. Right. So that's how random this is. And he started to tell me some of the things that he knew about my dad, about him being just kind of verbally, physically, emotionally abusive to women. All the things. And I felt the Lord speak to me and say, your dad not being in your life was my protection.

[Shelley Giglio]

Wow.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because imagine what kind of woman you would have been being around a man that did not honor women. And I said, oh, my gosh. The Lord actually used the absentee father energy to keep me from what that man could have shown me. You understand what I'm saying?

[Shelley Giglio]

Unbelievable that you could see that in

[Jackie Hill Perry]

your lifetime Holy Ghost revelation. So I'm processing and working through entrusting myself to him to keep me more than I trust myself to keep me.

[Shelley Giglio]

That is.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

But it's a process.

[Shelley Giglio]

It's a process. But I. And obviously I don't see you every day, and we don't walk together every day. But can I just encourage you that I see progress?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Do you.

[Shelley Giglio]

Can I just say to you. No. I mean this.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Okay.

[Shelley Giglio]

That I really see you growing in that. And I don't get to see your interactions with all the people. And I know they're walking in a world that you're walking in is treacherous. So let's be honest. It's treacherous. It is hard to know people's intentions. It is hard to understand who to trust. It is difficult to know whether God's in the equation with this or if I need to go elsewhere. And so you need a lot of discernment and wisdom to really walk well in the area in specific that you're called to be in. But I see you putting God before your distrust, and I see you letting down walls and lowering people's hurdles that they need to come across to have any kind of relationship with you. And I just want to commend it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's encouraging.

[Shelley Giglio]

And really say, keep going. You know? And I don't know that your personality will ever be like, hey, I just met all these people now they're my best friend. I don't think it needs to be never.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Okay, we'll just speak to it.

[Shelley Giglio]

It's never going to happen. But I do think that God will allow people into your life that need to be into your life in a way that feels more significant than maybe what you ever thought possible. Amen. And I believe for that in you.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, I believe that.

[Shelley Giglio]

Why don't you pray for the people? I feel like people have heard us talk about a lot of stuff today and I feel like there's something in there for just about everyone. And I feel like you're just speaking life over people and hope over people. I think your story, your vulnerability of saying I'm growing every day and God is pushing me forward every day, same with me, if I ever stop growing, then I hope I'm gone. That's true. So I just think encouraging people around, that would be awesome. Okay.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Lord, we thank you for your son. We thank you that because he came we can know you and we can understand you and we can have access to you. I thank you in knowing that like even now you hear us and are pleased by our pursuit. Knowing that like, even like our works are as filthy rags, but because of Christ Jesus, they're pure to you. And so we just thank you for sanctifying us. We thank you for setting us apart. We thank you for beginning and finishing the process of renewing our minds. We thank you for giving us a heart of flesh and taking out our heart of stone. We thank you for providing us teachers and preachers and pastors to equip us for the work of ministry. We thank you even for giving us a word that has been preserved so that we can know you and love you and honor you and, and contend for you. And so we just pray for everyone who is listening that they would know you, that they would love you, that if their parents, that they would parent well, that if they're spouses, that they would be good spouses. That if they are friends, that they would have and be good friends, that they, if they are leaders, that they would be humble, servant hearted leaders, that if they are influencers, that they would be influential in the way that honors you most. And so we just pray that you would protect us from all the schemes of the evil one, make us not ignorant of those schemes, but also not fearful. We pray also for the faith needed to resist his schemes and the flaming darts that he, he just shoots all the time. And I pray also that you use them that you use us. Use them to sanctify us and to strengthen us so that we are people, women, men, who will endure to the end. And so we just thank you for your kindness towards us. In Jesus name, Amen.

[Signa Coleman]

What a powerful reminder that following following Jesus truly is a daily surrender. If this conversation with Jackie encouraged you, we would love for you to stay connected with her at jackiehill Perry on Instagram and follow along with her podcast with the Perrys. If you haven't already, be sure to follow, download and subscribe here on the Grove Podcast so you never miss what's coming next for us this summer. We love you Grove Girl girls, and we'll see you soon.