'Follow the Flies'

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Hand in the Window – “Follow the Flies”

Podcast: The Hand in the Window (ABC News, 20/20 and ABC Audio)
Host: ABC News/John Quinones
Episode: ‘Follow the Flies’ (Episode 4)
Date: November 25, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the aftermath of a daring 911 call by a kidnapped woman, leading to the arrest of Shawn Grate in rural Ohio. Detectives quickly realize that Grate may be linked to multiple missing women, and as the investigation unfolds, he confesses to several murders. The tense, methodical work of Ashland police, particularly Detectives Kim Major and Brian Evans, reconstructs the chilling scope of Grate’s crimes and brings closure to devastated families.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Detectives’ Background and Immediate Response

• [00:44-02:31]
  • Detectives Brian Evans and Kim Major are long-time colleagues; both raised in Ashland, Ohio.
  • Evans, a narcotics specialist, is tasked with securing the crime scene at the yellow house on Covert Court after Jane Doe’s escape.
  • Tension is heightened by the recent disappearances of Stacy Stanley and Elizabeth Griffith, both unusual occurrences in Ashland.

The Interview with Shawn Grate

• [03:56-06:31]
  • Major’s Interview Tactics:
    Major approaches Grate with empathy but steers the conversation toward the missing women.
  • Grate’s Obfuscation:
    He initially avoids direct answers about Elizabeth Griffith but then becomes emotional and confesses to knowing her fate.
  • Introduction of a New Victim:
    Grate unexpectedly mentions another victim, Candace Cunningham, shifting the investigation to another county and a new possible case.
    • Quote [07:23]:
      • Grate: “I know I loved her.”

Step-by-Step Confessions

• [09:27-10:47]

  • Candace Cunningham’s Murder:
    Grate describes a violent argument leading to strangulation and directs police to her body in the woods, instructing to "follow the flies."
    • Quote [10:16]:
      • Grate: “I guess I'm ready to go ahead and get my lethal injection, but I'll tell you everything first.”

• [11:16-12:36]

  • Elizabeth Griffith’s Fate:
    Grate reveals Elizabeth's body is upstairs, hidden in a closet at the Covert Court house, strangled in a similar manner as Candace.

• [22:26-24:06]

  • Discovery of a Third Victim:
    Grate admits to killing Stacy Stanley, her body hidden under garbage bags in the basement. He chillingly describes the attack and rape.
    • Quote [24:21]:
      • Grate: “She wanted to play the innocent thing. So that's kind of just snapped on her.”

On-Scene Crime Discovery

• [17:04-19:51]
  • As Grate confesses, Detective Evans returns to the house to search for the bodies, finding Elizabeth Griffith’s remains hogtied and decomposed in the closet, and items belonging to Stacy in the basement.
    • Evans, upon discovery:
      • “You could see the fly activity. A lot of the flies were dead at that point, meaning that they've been there a while. Then you could start to get the odor of a decaying body.” [18:41]

Emotional Impact on Law Enforcement and Families

• [26:23-29:24]
  • The personal toll on detectives and families is evident as they grapple with the horror of the crimes and the process of victim identification.
    • Curtis Stanley, Stacy’s son, on identifying her body:
      • “Yeah, that's my mom's picture. And that's what they told us.” [29:19]
  • Detective Evans:
    • “I've been on other homicides and other tragic cases, but not to this magnitude. No.” [26:58]

Bringing Closure & Final Reflections

• [30:32-33:56]
  • Detective Major describes the process of locating Candace Cunningham’s body and the emotions that followed.
    • Major’s reflection:
      • “Like I wanted to go down to the ravine and rescue her, but she's gone.” [32:11]
    • Major on Grate:
      • “She was killed because he has a craving, that he has a hunger. And all it takes is you making a mistake and you're gone. You're gone.” [32:47]
  • The episode closes with the realization that Ashland is now linked to a serial killer, raising questions about how such evil emerges in small communities.

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the Unusual Nature of the Case:

  • Evans: “I'd say it's very unusual to have two adult females missing for the city of Ashland. I would say that that doesn't happen.” [01:45]

• Revelation about Multiple Victims:

  • Grate (suddenly): “I can take you to a place in Mansfield.” [05:21]

• Major on the Nature of Confession:

  • “It's like a sore that is festered inside that you have to rip a scab off to clean it. It's in there and it wants to come out. So I'll be the conduit.” [10:53]

• Crime Scene Experience:

  • Evans: “Once you got upstairs... you couldn’t see the closet door at all.” [18:11]
  • Evans (identifying fly activity): “You could see the fly activity. A lot of the flies were dead at that point, meaning that they've been there a while.” [18:41]

• Family Heartbreak:

  • Stanley's son: “Yeah, that was my mom.” [29:20]

• Major on Grate's Lack of Remorse:

  • “She wasn't killed because they were arguing and she wanted him to roll a cigarette. She was killed because he has a craving, that he has a hunger. And all it takes is you making a mistake and you're gone.” [32:47]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:44] - Introduction of Detectives Evans and Major
• [03:56] - Start of the first major interview with Grate
• [05:24] - Grate hints at another victim in Mansfield
• [09:27] - Grate confesses to Candace Cunningham’s murder
• [11:27] - Grate reveals Elizabeth Griffith is in the closet
• [18:41] - Evans and colleagues discover fly activity in the closet
• [22:38] - Grate confesses to Stacy Stanley’s murder in the basement
• [26:58] - Evans reflects on the unprecedented scale of the case
• [29:19] - Curtis Stanley identifies his mother’s body
• [30:32] - Major retraces the route to Candace’s body
• [32:47] - Major discusses Grate’s compulsion to kill

---

Episode Tone and Style

The episode is somber and methodical, reflecting the gravity of the murders and the painstaking investigation. The voices of Ashland’s detectives and families communicate shock, grief, and a determined professionalism. The narrative builds suspense as each of Grate’s chilling, matter-of-fact confessions leads investigators to yet another hidden body. Occasionally, raw emotion and horror break through as families are forced to identify lost loved ones and detectives confront the grim realities of their work.

---

Conclusion

“Follow the Flies” offers a wrenching, step-by-step look at how a single 911 call unraveled a series of disappearances and murders in a small Ohio town. It underscores the importance of tenacious investigation, the psychological toll on both law enforcement and victims’ families, and the chilling unpredictability of serial predators. Through candid interviews, painstaking crime scene details, and the exhausted voices of those seeking justice, the episode pieces together a harrowing story of loss, revelation, and resolve.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

This episode contains graphic descriptions that may not be suitable for all listeners. Detective Brian Evans has known Detective Kim Major a long time.

[C]

I started actually the same day as Detective Major did. It was actually on my birthday. September 29, 1997 is the day we started.

[B]

They had been rookies together on the Ashland police force force, partnered up on a lot of cases. Over time they formed a close bond, the type where they could finish each other's sentences. They each had their specialties. Evans was a narcotics detective and Major.

[C]

She'S a very good interviewer. I think most of that comes from her drive to help. She can be very relatable to the suspects and they find it very easy to talk with her.

[B]

Like Major, Evans had grown up in the area. He went to high school in Ashland. So when Stacy Stanley and Elizabeth Griffith disappeared in quick succession, it seemed strange.

[C]

I'd say it's very unusual to have two adult females missing for the city of Ashland. I would say that that doesn't happen.

[B]

After Jane Doe escaped her kidnapper, Detective Evans was one of the first officers on the scene at that yellow house on Covert Court. His role was to secure the crime scene. That meant walk through the house, take pictures, don't disturb any evidence, and finally handle the paperwork needed for police to do a more detailed search.

[C]

Captain Lay has me in charge of the search warrant. Being a narcotics guy, I write the most house search warrants for drug houses. So that became my focus.

[B]

Evans was looking for anything related to Sean Grates kidnapping and assault on Jane Doe. But with two other women missing, he was on high alert as he moved through the house room by room. If there were more secrets to be found, Brian Evans would be there to find them. From 2020 and ABC Audio, this is the Hand in the Window Episode 4 Follow the Floor While the crime scene buzzed with activity in the interview room at the police department, it was quiet. Sean Grate sat shirtless at a small table, leaning back in his chair. Detective Kim Major sat to his right, about a foot away, leaning forward. Major had gotten Sean Gray to admit to his brutal attacks on Jane Doe. Now she pushed him carefully about the other missing women, Stacey Stanley and Elizabeth Griffith. She started with Elizabeth, the 29 year old who had last been seen a month before.

[D]

Hey, do you know where Elizabeth is right now? I don't care what you tell anybody else. I care what you tell me.

[E]

Hey, I feel you already know. I can't answer your question. You already know.

[B]

Grade kept telling major that he felt she already knew where Elizabeth was. Detective major wasn't sure what that meant. She tried a new question. Did Elizabeth Griffith ask Great to hurt her or kill her?

[E]

No, she hasn't asked me to do nothing. She's mentioning it about not wanting to be alive before that one time, like within five minutes. I know her. Oh, my goodness.

[B]

According to grate, Elizabeth had expressed suicidal tendencies. He told major Elizabeth, Sarah said that quote within five minutes of knowing her.

[D]

Well, when I tell you I don't think she's alive, it's cause that's what I think. I don't know what else to say. I don't know where she is. I would like for you to take me there if you're willing to do it. We'll go load up and go there. Will you take me there?

[E]

I can take you to a place in Mansfield.

[B]

Take you to a place in Mansfield. Great said. A city twice the size of Ashland in a neighboring county about 20 minutes away. His demeanor was suddenly different. He looked uncomfortable, and his voice had dropped to almost a whisper.

[D]

Where she is wearing a mask or there's another girl.

[E]

Where there is a girl.

[B]

But a nut grate seemed to be talking about a different woman. Someone besides Elizabeth Griffith. Major wanted to know if this woman, whoever she was, was still alive.

[D]

What happened to her? Hey, are you okay? What happened? She gone?

[E]

She's been gone.

[B]

She's been gone. Great's voice was breaking. He began to cry. The circling questions about Elizabeth Griffith had broken through, but not in the way Major was expecting.

[D]

He's not even telling me about what happened in my own county. He's not telling me about our missing ladies. So you don't know. Is he just making this up? Is anybody. I mean, has she been buried or did you just leave her somewhere? Is she missing?

[E]

I don't know.

[D]

You don't know?

[E]

I know I loved her.

[B]

I loved her. He said.

[D]

Is she in a house? What is she in. Sean, what is she in?

[E]

In the woods.

[D]

She's in the woods. Okay. How long has she been there? How long?

[E]

June.

[D]

June. Okay. What's her name? Candace Candice Cunningham. Cunningham.

[B]

This comes out of the blue, right?

[D]

This came out of the the blue.

[B]

A new name, a new county, a new possible victim of Sean Grate. Candace Cunningham. Great described how he met Candace in Mansfield in a house where he'd rented a room the previous winter.

[D]

Candace had not been reported missing, and Candace had dated Shawn.

[B]

Grateful detective Major would later learn that Candace was 29 years old. She was just 4 foot 9 with dark hair and high cheekbones. Candice's family later told a local newspaper that she had struggled with addiction and was in and out of touch with her family. Grate said that he and Candace had been seeing each other for around seven months when they began squatting together in a white house on the road leading out of Mansfield. But Great claimed the relationship wasn't going well. Great said they argued a lot. He told Major that one morning Candace had woken him up by asking him to roll her a cigarette.

[E]

Three coffee morning and I got hit in the face with a bag of tobacco and just snapped.

[B]

Gray told Major that they started physically fighting and that he strangled her to death. If this story was true, it was a confession of cold blooded murder. Not wanting to lose momentum, Major asked Grape if he'd show her the spot in the woods behind the house where he'd left Candace Cunningham's body. It will be easy to find, he said. Just follow the flies.

[D]

So we're gonna go. We're gonna go find Candace, right? And go from there. Who else we gonna go find?

[E]

I guess I'm ready to go ahead and get my lethal injection, but I'll tell you everything first.

[D]

Okay? He says, how many before I am lethally, lethally injected? So he's talking about how many people, how many victims before I get the death penalty is what he's asking. And I'm saying, well, let's not worry about that right now. Let's just. Let's get the facts. Just talk.

[B]

Major sends that there might be more. That grade was on the verge of sharing.

[D]

I do feel if you do something and it's in there, it needs to come out. It's like a sore that is festered inside that you have to rip a scab off to clean it. It's in there and it wants to come out. So I'll be the conduit. Who else?

[E]

The house, where I came from.

[D]

Yeah. There's somebody in there.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Great wasn't making eye contact when he said there was someone in the house at Covert Court. He started squirming in his chair.

[D]

Who is it? Is it Elizabeth? Where is she? In there.

[E]

In the closet.

[D]

In the closet. Which closet upstairs, upstairs. When he said that, I didn't know if she was alive or not. I just knew she was in a closet.

[B]

Major wanted to confirm whether Elizabeth Griffith was hidden in the house alive or dead. She returned to Grate's earlier allegations about Elizabeth being possibly suicidal.

[D]

So with Elizabeth, you wanted to free her. How did you do that? Same way with Candace or another way? Same way.

[B]

The same way Strangulation. Detective Major told Grade she'd bring him something to eat and drink, making excuses to step out of the interview room. She was actually going to alert her colleagues at that house on Court Culvert Court to tell them they should be looking for a body.

[F]

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[B]

In a few short minutes, Sean Great had confessed to not one, but two murders. The case was rapidly evolving into one of the biggest that Ashland's police department had ever seen. By now, Ohio's Bureau of Criminal Investigation, or bci, had been called in to help. With every hour that passed, more BCI trucks pulled up to the house on Covert Court. Brian Evans was in the process of photographing every room in the house when.

[C]

I began to receive communication via phone calls and text messages from the interview that's taking place with Detective Major. And now that we know Mr. Gray.

[B]

The first call that Brian Evans got was about Candace Cunningham. That grate had admitted to killing her in a house in Richland County. Five minutes went by when Evan's phone.

[C]

Rang again and I get another communication that our missing female, Elizabeth, is deceased and she's upstairs in a closet.

[B]

Detective Evans was surprised. He had just walked through every room in the COVID courthouse and he didn't remember seeing any closets in the upstairs rooms. He went to look again. He climbed the stairs and entered a small bedroom on the second floor. Inside was a green sofa bed with Rags tied to the frame. They looked like restraints.

[C]

Once you got upstairs, the rooms were in semi disarray. I mean, there was a bedroom, and in that bedroom, there was. You couldn't see the closet door at all.

[B]

On one wall, clothing was everywhere, hanging from nails and stacked in piles on the floor. As Evans looked closer, he realized there was a door hidden behind all the mess. It was sealed shut with duct tape.

[C]

As we started pulling away the clothes in that upstairs closet area, you could see the fly activity. A lot of the flies were dead at that point, meaning that they've been there a while. Then you could start to get the odor of a decaying body.

[B]

Evans and his fellow investigators pulled the clothes away from the closet doorway. A BCI agent peeled back the tape and opened the door. Inside, they found more mess. Another pile of clothing and bedding. The agents removed each layer of the pile one by one until they made a chilling discovery. A woman's dead body.

[C]

She was down basically on her stomach, chest area, with her hands tied behind her back and her legs tied up, and then hog tied to her hands, and her head and face was facing away from us to the back of the wall.

[B]

Because of the tight space and the decomposition of the body, Evans couldn't tell immediately if it was Elizabeth. The body had clearly been in the closet for a while. It was there during the days that Jane Doe was trapped downstairs.

[D]

All right, Shawn. I've been on the hunt for snacks. We got chips. Here's what I got so far.

[B]

Detective Kim Major had left the interview room to make sure her colleagues were briefed on Sean Grate's confessions. She returned, ready to ask Grate for more details about Elizabeth's confession death. Major asked if Grade had sexually assaulted Elizabeth Griffith before her murder. Great said no. Major asked how Elizabeth had ended up at Grate's home.

[E]

Everything all happened so fast.

[B]

According to Grate, Elizabeth Griffith and Jane Doe lived in the same apartment complex. Grate said that it was Jane who had introduced Elizabeth to him earlier that summer. One day, when Grate had gone to Jane Doe's building to see her, she wasn't there. But Elizabeth Griffith was. So Great and Elizabeth spent the day together at her apartment playing card games. That night, Elizabeth had gone to Great's home. They hadn't been there long. Grate said when he attacked her, he strangled her, then tied her up in the closet. In the days that followed, he would periodically kill the flies that buzzed around the house. Major noticed that Great was very interested in flies. The life cycle from egg to maggot to adult. He also seemed drawn to specific parts of death and the decomposition of bodies.

[D]

There are times during the interview if he would talk about what a woman's face does when you're killing her or what her body does, how a body decomposes the larva, or following the scent to find the body, or watching their bodies decompose. You know, there's lots of things where you could tell he's interested in this.

[B]

Major continued to press him.

[D]

Are there any other girls in the house right now? Yeah, one down in the basement, down in the basement.

[B]

Another body, this time in the basement of the yellow house.

[D]

What's her name?

[E]

Stacey.

[B]

Stacy Great described her as a dark haired woman in her 40s, a nice lady. He said he'd driven her car and still had her keys. All the details matched the Stacy Stanley case. The 43 year old mother and grandmother who had gone missing from a gas station the previous week. Her sons had been all over town putting up flyers with Stacy's picture on them, asking the public for any information about where she might be. Gray told Major that he'd seen Stacy standing at the gas station in the rain, waiting with a flat tire. He helped her and Great said he asked if Stacy would like to hang out sometimes. Great told Major that Stacy had agreed and they'd gone back to his house. According to Great, they'd sat together talking. But then he said things turned sour.

[D]

Did you have sex with her?

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Great raped Stacy. Investigators would later find out that he filmed the attack on his phone. When Stacy fought back, Grate strangled her.

[E]

She wanted to play the innocent thing. So that's kind of just snapped on her.

[B]

Great shifted the blame onto Stacy. She wanted to play the innocent thing, he said. So I just snapped.

[D]

Okay, so what did you put her in in the basement?

[E]

Just put her on the floor.

[D]

Put her on the floor where on the floor?

[E]

In the basement underneath all that stuff. Garbage.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Great said that Stacy's body was under the garbage in the basement. Soon, Brian Evans got another call from the station.

[C]

I'd say about within a half hour after finding Elizabeth upstairs. I received more information that Stacy should be in the basement under a bunch of trash bags.

[B]

Evans and a couple of other officers went down to take a look downstairs. There was a large pile of bags. It looked like Grate had been using the basement to store all of his trash since he moved in.

[C]

And before we even moved any trash bags, there was, I believe, a checkbook. There were some items that had Stacy Stanley's name on it.

[B]

The Officers also found a pink mace container on a keychain. Slowly and methodically, they photographed and removed bag after bag. As they cleared one of the last areas, they saw something startling. It was a hand sticking out from under a blanket. It had a small tattoo on it and rings on the fingers. The rest of the body was hidden under the bags.

[D]

It's bad enough what he did, but for some reason, thinking that he put her under trash makes it worse.

[B]

In a town as small as Ashland, one murder would be shocking. Now police were dealing with three. In a place where everybody knows everybody. It hit hard. Have you ever seen anything like this.

[I]

In all your years of police work?

[C]

No. I've been on other homicides and other tragic cases, but not to this magnitude. No.

[B]

By the early afternoon, a crowd had gathered outside the house on Covert court. Detective Evans recognized members of Stacy Stanley's.

[I]

Family the day that they were found. I think we spent majority of the day sitting in the parking lot.

[B]

Stacey Stanley's son Curtis waited along with a growing number of journalists and Ashland residents.

[I]

Hundreds and hundreds of people standing there and a bunch of news channels and everybody else. And you could see them bringing things out, and they seen them bring the bodies out and they had all those tents and that was it. They didn't tell us.

[B]

Detective Evans couldn't reveal everything he knew just yet. The body in the basement was too decomposed to be recognizable. But the evidence that police had collected suggested that it was Stacy Stanley. Evans was close to one of Stacy's family members. He reached out to her.

[C]

I told the family member, I can't release any information, but I'd like to have you answer a few questions about some property of Stacy's. And she said that she would.

[B]

Evans shared a picture of the pink mace keychain and a ring that been found on the body. Stacy's relative confirmed that Stacy owned those items.

[C]

That was hard. Yes.

[B]

Evans couldn't confirm the reason why he was asking these questions, but he knew what had looked like. Now the police were almost sure it was Stacy. The only thing left was for the family to officially confirm it. The Stanley family would have to wait for hours until late that night before they were called to a meeting at the police station.

[I]

Then I remember that night we sat in that room. There's probably about 15 or 20 of us. They put pulled out a couple pictures, and one of them was her hand with a tattoo she had on her hand right there. And they're like, is that. Do you guys recognize that? So I went up there and I Looked and said, yeah, that's my mom's picture. And that's what they told us.

[B]

It was my mom.

[I]

Yeah, that was my mom.

[B]

By the afternoon of September 13, Detective Kim Major was finishing up her interview with Great. She had asked him point blank if there were any other missing women in the area that he had information about. Great said no. Major pushed him. Are you a hundred percent on that? She asked. Yes, Great insisted. But Major wasn't finished with Great yet. In a few short hours, Grate had confessed to killing three women and directed the police to two of his victims bodies. But there was still one body left to find. Candace Cunningham's. It had been a long day, but Major knew that Grate's openness might not last forever. She wanted him to show her where he had placed Candice's remains in the woods. When I met with Major in Ashland, I asked her to show me.

[D]

This is the route that we traveled to go to the home where he murdered Candace Cunningham. This is the route we took. So Lieutenant Scott Smart was driving.

[B]

Major took me to an empty lot on the edge of Mansfield next to a busy road. The house where Graydon Candace had stayed is gone now, cleared away years ago. But you can still walk straight into the woods just beyond where the house was once sat. Major described what Sean G.R. said he did the day he turned on Candace Cunningham after murdering her.

[D]

He wrapped her body in a blanket, took her clothes off of her, took her into a ravine. He took her back there and left her out in the elements under a bush. Candace had been described as being so bubbly and laughing all the time and full of life. Full of life. And the smallest things make her so happy. And he took every bit of that away.

[B]

Great showed Detective Major and the other officers where Candace's body lay. It was next to a creek. Major knew that if Grate had not shown them, they may never have found the body. What was it like to finally find this woman and give it some closure?

[D]

I felt this sense of urgency, but there was really nothing to run to. Like I wanted to go down to the ravine and rescue her, but she's gone.

[B]

The feeling of looking down at Candace Cunningham's remains at the bottom of the creek has stayed with Detective Major. The lack of dignity in her death in Great's descriptions of her, the lack of remorse that Grate showed sometimes, only.

[D]

After you have time to think about it, do you actually realize how absolutely senseless something can be. Absolutely senseless. She wasn't killed because they were arguing and she wanted him to roll a cigarette. She was killed because he has a craving, that he has a hunger. And all it takes is you making a mistake and you're gone. You're gone.

[B]

Detective Major Ashland county, raised and proud, realized that in the course of one day, Grate's confessions had given her town a horrific claim to fame. It was now the home of a serial killer. Now she and the town would have to try to understand where did that hunger to kill come from? And did it end?

[D]

He started out absolutely charming, wonderful.

[B]

And then, little by little, he just turned. We're evil. The hand in the window is a production of abc audio and 2020, hosted by me, john quinones. Produced by madeline wood, camille peterson, kiara powell edited by gianna palmer. Our supervising producer. Producer is suzy lu. Music and mixing by evan viola. Special thanks to katie dendos, janice johnston, michelle margulis, caitlin schiffer, rachel walker, annalisa linder, joseph diaz, jonathan balthaser, gail deutch, gary wynn, stephanie mcbee, natalie cardenas and samantha wanderer. Josh cohan is our director of podcast programming.

[G]

Fall is all about cozy comforts. But when you're prioritizing your health, it's easy to feel like you're missing out. With Herobred, you can enjoy all your Fall favorites because they're made with Herobread, sliced bread, loaves, tortillas, bagels, dinner rolls and more. Try their all new hero noodles. With 12 grams of protein and just 80 calories, you won't believe. HeroBred's options have 0 to 5 grams net carbs and are high fiber from the taste and texture. They've even got small batch drops of indulgent favorites like the popular Hero croissant. And right now, Herobred is offering 10% off your order. Go to Hero Co and use code fall25 at checkout. That's fall25EROCO. All figures are per serving of Hero Bread contains 2 to 18 grams of fat per serving. See the product nutrition panels on Hero Co for more information.

[D]

Two rings surrounded by a steel cage.

[H]

You want to play games? We're going to play games. Oh, my God. Are you kidding me? This is going to be a war stream.

[B]

Survivor series. War Games November 29th at 7 Eastern on the ESPN app.