'The Other Me'

Summary

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The Hand in the Window – Episode 5: “The Other Me”

Podcast: The Hand in the Window
Host: John Quinones, ABC News
Date: December 2, 2025
Episode Theme:
This episode focuses on the double life of Shawn Grate—a man whose charm masked profound violence. After his arrest for multiple crimes, investigators, past romantic partners, and friends recount their harrowing experiences with Grate, exploring how someone so seemingly genial could also be a ruthless killer. The episode takes listeners through his personal relationships, violent outbursts, and ultimately, his confessions to murder.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Community Reacts and Shawn Grate’s Background (00:30–02:44)

• Prosecutor Chris Tunnell addresses the public following Grate's arrest, emphasizing, “Ashland county is a safe place to live… There’s no reason for people in this county to live in fear.” (00:49)
• Narrator John Quinones provides Grate’s background: troubled childhood, early legal issues, three children from different women, and a pattern of moving through small Ohio towns.
• Grate’s manipulative charm, compared to Ted Bundy by Detective Kim Major:

  “There are absolute parallels in that. The fact that they were both charming… used those things to land himself in these situations.” (02:17)

Christina Hildreth’s Relationship with Shawn Grate (03:38–12:02)

• Christina Hildreth describes initially meeting a kind, attentive Grate, highlighting his magnetic blue eyes:

  “Just the way they looked at you…made you feel like you were the only one.” (03:55)

• Their spontaneous, fun relationship begins to deteriorate after Grate moves in without formal invitation.
• Grate’s demeanor shifts:

  “He’d be very friendly… and one little thing would just send him over the edge, and he was mad. He just had a way of making you feel horrible.” (05:20)

• Grate refuses to leave after their relationship cracks; he becomes violent, culminating in a traumatic night:

  “He started hitting and choking her… He hit her hand so hard, it felt like it broke one of her fingers." (07:05)

• Christina manipulates the situation for survival—expressing concern for their livelihood to calm Grate before seeking help.
• Revelations of Grate's bizarre stalking:

  “He says, ‘I’ve been living in the couch… when you came in, you were sitting on me.’” (09:16)

• Police eventually arrest him hiding in Christina’s closet.
• Enduring trauma:

  “I do believe… if I wouldn’t have changed my attitude… Sean would have killed me in that bathroom.” (10:33)
  "There's nothing honestly nice about Shawn. He can portray that... he’s completely evil." (11:22)

A Friend’s Perspective – Tim Dennis (12:44–15:17)

• Tim Dennis, a former friend, recalls Grate as initially “a really nice guy,” but notes his income was from selling wooden signs.
• The friendship sours when Tim refuses to lend money. Grate responds with angry texts:

  "'You just rot and die with your money and your bedbugs... Meet the other me.' Honestly, I just froze when that statement hit… the first thing hit my mind is a monster." (13:50)

• Reflecting, Tim Dennis rationalizes:

  “There’s two persons living inside of him… my only way of being able to reconcile the two.” (15:00)

Grate on the Run and Investigations Continue (17:29–19:26)

• Grate evades police briefly in 2016, continuing his pattern: ingratiating himself before turning on others.
• Detective Kim Major is left feeling there’s more to uncover about Grate’s crimes and psyche.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Chilling Confessions: The Jailhouse Interview (20:22–34:07)

• Detectives Kim Major and Brian Evans interview Grate at Ashland Jail; Major presses for further confessions.
• Grate reveals a previously unlinked murder of a woman (possibly "Dana") around 2005–2006:

  “We sat in the kitchen… I was just feeling enraged… I fronted her… so you want to rip me off like you did my mom?... I panicked. I ran upstairs. I grabbed a knife, stabbed her in the neck.” (22:43–23:42)

• He describes hiding the body, then returning months later to burn it.

  "I did go back after a few months and I burned a fire. I caught her on fire." (24:35)

• Asked to explain his motive, Grate falters, unable to provide clarity:

  "I really can’t explain a lot of it." (26:09)

• Detective Kim Major’s attempt to dig deeper into his psyche:

  “He begged me… to help him come up with what his motive was… 'tell me why you think I did this.’” (26:12)

• Grate claims he operated opportunistically: “Whoever comes first.”

Demonstration of Violence (27:56–32:40)

• Grate agrees to demonstrate his strangulation technique on Detective Evans—declining dolls, insisting on a real person:

  "I was thinking I'd demonstrate on you." (28:49)

• The practical demonstration leaves a chilling impression on Evans and Major:

  “His motions were so fluid… I was really taken by him demonstrating how their breath would leave their body.” (32:00)

• Evans’ reaction after experiencing Grate’s grip:

  “He just did like a quick flex... I kind of have a bigger Adam’s apple. And even that quick... you could feel that on my Adam’s apple.” (31:03)

The Possibility of More Victims (33:18–34:50)

• Detective Major probes whether there are more victims:

  "Because the other day, you said Candace was your first, and that doesn't mean that you're a liar. It meant sometimes there's a reason why somebody doesn't want to say something." (33:18)

• Grate's cryptic response:

  “The reason why I hesitated… was because I’m sure everyone will think that there could be thousands… I’m not that cold.” (33:32)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:49 — Prosecutor reassures the public after the arrest
• 02:17 — Detective Major compares Grate’s charm to Bundy
• 03:38–05:03 — Christina Hildreth recalls meeting and dating Grate
• 07:05–08:16 — Christina’s account of domestic violence and escape
• 09:16–10:19 — Grate’s creepy stalking behavior revealed
• 12:44–15:17 — Tim Dennis describes friendship with and the unsettling transformation of Grate
• 20:22–25:03 — Detectives’ jailhouse interview, Grate’s cold case confession
• 27:56–32:40 — Grate demonstrates strangulation on Detective Evans
• 33:18–34:50 — Probing for more victims and the chilling suggestion of “thousands”
• 35:09–35:47 — Detectives realize Grate may still be concealing the full truth

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Episode Takeaways

• The Dual Nature of Shawn Grate:
  Personal testimonials and investigative interviews reveal how Grate could appear disarmingly personable, yet was capable of unspeakable violence. Both friends and romantic partners recalled a dramatic, sinister other side.
• Investigative Diligence:
  Detectives Major and Evans’ nuanced rapport and persistent questioning led to chilling confessions—including cold cases previously unlinked to Grate.
• Lingering Uncertainty:
  Despite multiple interviews and clear admissions, law enforcement is left grappling with the depth and potential scale of Grate’s crimes, and whether the “other me” he described ever truly revealed itself in full.

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Memorable Final Quotes

"There's nothing honestly nice about Shawn. He can portray that... he’s completely evil."
– Christina Hildreth (11:22)

“Meet the other me… the first thing hit my mind is a monster.”
– Tim Dennis (13:50)

“He begged me… to help him come up with what his motive was. He said, ‘why did I do this? Tell me why you think I did this.’”
– Detective Kim Major (26:12)

“You weren’t armed? Neither you nor Detective Major?”
– John Quinones (29:36)
“No… I also let them know, in case something did go bad… you could have lost consciousness in seconds. He could have killed you.”
– Chris Tunnell

“At this point, you realize… he's been killing for years. Do you ask yourself, how deep does this go?”
– John Quinones (34:40)

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For listeners new to the series, this episode starkly illustrates the duality, escalation, and psychological complexity behind a notorious serial offender, all while spotlighting the persistent search for truth in the wake of unimaginable violence.

Transcript

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[Narrator (John Quinones)]

a few days after Sean Grate was arrested for kidnapping, rape and murder, Ashland county prosecutor Chris Tunnell gave a press conference covered by local ABC News affiliate. Wendy I want to say something very important.

[Chris Tunnell]

Ashland county is a safe place to live. We've not seen crimes of this magnitude in a very long time. There's no reason for people in this county to live in fear.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Grade was behind bars in the Ashland County Jail. This man who had been living in Ashland for less than two months had shattered the town's sense of safety. Investigators had begun learning the rough outlines of Grayd's life before his killing spree. He said his mother had abandoned him when he was a kid. She he'd started getting in trouble with the law at the age of 20. He'd racked up convictions for burglary, abduction and brandishing a knife at his ex girlfriend. He had a son and two daughters with three different women. Throughout his adult life, Gray had moved from town to town in rural Ohio. Detective Kim Major had learned that Grate was good at charming people. His appearance helped with that. Sean's own mother is quoted as saying, yes, he's good looking, but the devil's good looking too.

[Detective Kim Major]

She said that about her son. She did.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Ted Bundy was good looking and charming and he was able to seduce women because of that.

[Detective Kim Major]

Yes, he was.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Is there a comparison, a similarity to

[Detective Kim Major]

Sean Great in the manipulation piece of this, the calculating yet opportunistic ways, absolute parallels in that and the fact that they were both charming or they're both handsome. And to think that he used those things to land himself in these situations is just incredible.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

There was the charming Sean Great who looked good on the outside and the violent shone Great who lurked just beneath the surface. From ABC Audio in 2020. I'm John Quinones and this is the Hand in the Window, Episode five, the Other Me. To learn more about these different sides of Shawn Great, we spoke with two people who knew him well. Not as the murderer Shawn Great, but simply as Shawn Christina Hildreth met Shaun Great about a decade before he showed up in Ashland. Christina had just moved from Texas to a small town in Ohio.

[Christina Hildreth]

And I met him then, and he was just. He was just very friendly. And he just had a way that, you know, it made you feel like you were important.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Like many people, Christina was charmed by Great's piercing eyes.

[Christina Hildreth]

Just such a blue. And they just. Just the way they looked at you, you know, it made you feel like you were the only one who wasn't, you know, paying attention to nobody else. It was all about you. It's just blue eyes, you know, they're very, very attractive. Very magnifying, very just. He had great eyes.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Christina said Great never asked her out on a date or made plans to meet up. He just sort of showed up at her house when he wanted to, which was fine with her back then.

[Christina Hildreth]

Sean was very charming and good looking, and it was just, oh, he's here. Okay, great. You know, let's figure out something to do.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Eventually, they started a romantic relationship. And at first, that relationship was fun. They hiked, fished, and made the best of the rural area they lived in. Grade continued to be charming and he seemed happy. But things started to change when he moved into Christina's house.

[Christina Hildreth]

I never put Shawn on the lease. Sean never had a house key. He just moved himself in.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Once they lived together, Christina started to see a different side of Grate. His charm started slipping away.

[Christina Hildreth]

He'd be very friendly, very nice, and one little thing would just send him over the edge, and he was mad. He just had a way of really, really making you feel horrible. I spent a lot of time in tears over things he said.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Christina said she and Shaun Great were in a relationship for five years. But she said that in that time, she never learned much about his past beyond that he wasn't close to his family and that he really did not like his mom.

[Christina Hildreth]

He said, anytime I ever ask my mom for anything, all she tells me is pray or go to church, that God will fix it.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Christina said that as they continued living together, things got worse and worse. She said Gray didn't like her two kids and he didn't have a job. Instead, she said, he spent the day making wooden signs which he engraved with sayings and the names of people and schools. The signs were scattered all over her house. Christina said he rarely did chores and was often mean and moody. She wanted to split up, but said that Great refused to leave the house. She didn't know what to do. One night after they got into a fight, he Exploded. He started hitting and choking her in the bedroom. He hit her hand so hard, it felt like it broke one of her fingers.

[Christina Hildreth]

I managed to get up, and I'm sitting at the end of the bed, and I'm like, look what you did to me. And he's still. He's very, very angry. And he walks over and he grabs me, and he's got me by the back of the pants and, like, the back of my hair. And he's trying to drag me off to the bathroom. And as he's trying to drag me through the door, I'm trying to fight to stay in the bedroom. And I'm, like, sitting there thinking to myself, what, you know, what is he going to do with me in the bathroom?

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Christina said she started pleading with great. If her hand was broken, she couldn't cook, clean, work and support them.

[Christina Hildreth]

How am I going to do this and pay our bills with my hand like this? And I had. You know, I had changed the whole thing from, this is what you. Look what you did to me, you know, on and on to how am I going to take care of us?

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Her plea worked. They went to the er and once Grate left the room, Christina said she told the nurse to shut the door.

[Christina Hildreth]

And I said, he did this. She's like, well, we thought so.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

The police were called in to take Christina's statement. And authorities said Sean Grate ran out of the er. When Christina left the hospital, she went to stay at her mom's place. Great. Still didn't have a key to her house, but she was worried he'd find a way in. Once in a while, she'd go back to the house to pick up some of her things. The house seemed empty, but it felt off like someone had been there. Christina reported to the police that Sean started to call her and describe everything she had done while she was in the house, as if he was somehow watching her every move. Eventually, Christina said Gray told her how he was doing this.

[Christina Hildreth]

He says, I've been living in the couch. He said, when you came in, you were sitting on me. So then I kind of pulled the couch away from the. And he had cut a slit into the back of the couch. And he was crawling in and out of the couch through the back of the couch. And he would stay in the couch in the daytime, and he would come out at night.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Christina said Shawn Grate admitted to living inside her couch. The next time Christina had to go to the house, she called the police beforehand. She wanted officers to search the place before she went in and they go

[Christina Hildreth]

into the apartment, and next thing you know, they're bringing Sean out in handcuffs. And the policeman's like, we found him in your closet.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

In 2010, Shawn Grade was found guilty of domestic violence for the attack that fractured Christina's finger and sent her to the er. He was sentenced to six months in prison.

[Christina Hildreth]

I do believe that if I wouldn't have changed my attitude and the way I talked to him, I truly believe Sean would have killed me in that bathroom.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Their years together still haunt her.

[Christina Hildreth]

My kids were like, mom, you need to get out. You need to do something. You need a date. You can't stay in this house day after day by yourself with no one. And that's where I'm at. I don't. I don't trust anybody other than my kids.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

To this day, Christina doesn't understand Shawn Gray's frightening and violent turn.

[Christina Hildreth]

Why did it come to this? Why did you let it be like this? You know, why did you turn into this? He started out absolutely charming, wonderful, and then little by little, he just turned more evil. There's nothing honestly nice about Shawn. He can portray that. He can make you believe 100% he's the nicest person you'll ever meet. And all in all, there's nothing nice there. He's completely evil.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

After serving his time for domestic violence, Shawn Grate moved to Mansfield, another small town about 20 minutes from Ashland. He got married there, and he and his wife had a daughter. But less than a year later, they got divorced, and she was given full custody of their child. In 2013, his ex wife filed for an order of protection against Grate. She claimed he was threatening her and her family. The order was granted. Grate stayed in Mansfield, which is where he became friends with a man named Tim Dennis.

[Tim Dennis]

He seems like a really nice guy, and I thought, this, I like this guy.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

The two met at a local market where Grate was selling his wooden side, the ones that once filled Christina's house. Tim was drawn to Sean's easygoing personality. They played pool, cooked together, and relaxed in Tim's hot tub.

[Tim Dennis]

Just good, fun, friend, things to do, you know.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Great seemed to see Tim as a confidant. Great would text him about his family and emotions. But things in their friendship took a drastic turn when Tim said Grate asked to borrow money. Grate's only income was from selling his wooden signs.

[Tim Dennis]

And I told him, sean, I said, I'm sorry. I said, I've just made it a policy not to loan out money. I've had so many Bad dealings in the past.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Tim said Great snapped. He sent a barrage of angry texts.

[Tim Dennis]

You just rot and die with your money and your bedbugs are. I'm putting curses on you. Bedbugs are coming to your house, Roaches are coming. All this stuff, he just went on and on and on. And then he makes this statement. He says, meet the other me. Honestly, I just froze when that statement hit. It's like, okay. All of a sudden, the first thing hit my mind is a monster.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Tim saw Great one more time after those texts, but said he seemed different. Angry, dark, and even a little scary. After being good friends for a couple of years, they lost touch. In early 2016, when Tim Dennis heard that Sean Great was accused of kidnapping, rape and murder, he had a hard time understanding how his charming friend had become so violent.

[Tim Dennis]

There's two persons living inside of him and that's the only way that I'm ever able. And that may or may not even be his situation, but it's like my only way of being able to reconcile the 2.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

In summer 2016, Sean Grate was on the run. He was wanted in Mansfield on a child support warrant. Authorities said that when a police officer stopped him, Grate fled into the woods and that officers chased him on foot but lost him. Even a K9 unit wasn't able to track him down. Soon after Gray turned up in Ashland. He continued his pattern of charming people and then rapidly turning on them. Detective Kim Major had gotten Sean Gray to confess to his deadly violence. But still she had this nagging feeling that she was somehow missing something, that there was more to learn about who Shaun Great was and what he had done.

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[Christina Hildreth]

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[Detective Kim Major]

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[Christina Hildreth]

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[Narrator (John Quinones)]

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[Christina Hildreth]

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[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Not suitable for work. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers Terms apply. Two days after Sean Grate was arrested, Detective Kim Major and Detective Brian Evans went to meet with Grateful at the Ashland jail. Major and Evans had both been working the case, but this was the first time that the two longtime colleagues and friends would be talking to Sean Grate together.

[Chris Tunnell]

This is September 15, 2016 at 14:43.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

The detectives were there to show Shawn Grate the complaint against him, which listed all the charges he faced. But before they did that, Detective Major wanted another chance to interview Grate.

[Detective Kim Major]

I told him there was a solid chance I wouldn't get to talk to him anymore because he's going to be represented by an attorney.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

While they settled into the interview room, Detective Evans introduced himself to Sean Grate.

[Chris Tunnell]

Hi, how are you? I never got to meet you.

[Detective Brian Evans]

Brian Evans.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

And then Detective Major asked Great if there was anything else he wanted to get off his chest. He said there was.

[Detective Kim Major]

What's that?

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Great. Paused for a few seconds. Then softly he said he had been thinking about it.

[Detective Brian Evans]

Okay, I'm sure you can help me get the year right.

[Detective Kim Major]

Okay,

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Great. Said he wasn't sure of the exact year, but he wanted to talk about a cold case from around 2005 or 2006, a full decade earlier. He said a murder victim was found in nearby Marion county, but the body was never identified.

[Detective Brian Evans]

I'm thinking her name is Dana. I totally forget her name.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

After a while, Dana Grates said Dana traveled door to door selling magazines and had sold a subscription to his mom. But he said his mother never got those magazines.

[Detective Brian Evans]

And then all I hear is my mom just complaining and crapping.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Grade said he felt he had to do something about his mom's complaints. At that time, Grade was living in his grandparents house. He said a woman came by to sell magazines. Grade assumed she was Dana, the salesperson who spoke with his mom. He invited her in first.

[Detective Brian Evans]

We sat in the kitchen on the bar stools and just sit there for a minute. And I was just feeling enraged.

[Detective Kim Major]

Okay.

[Detective Brian Evans]

So I said, hey, come on in back here. Show you my ball cards.

[Detective Kim Major]

Like baseball cards collection.

[Detective Brian Evans]

Yeah. All sports.

[Detective Kim Major]

Oh, okay.

[Detective Brian Evans]

Yeah. And there she comes. So that's when I fronted her. So you want to rip me off like you did my mom?

[Detective Kim Major]

What did she say?

[Detective Brian Evans]

She said, who's your mom? I said, oh, so you're doing it a lot to people, you know what I mean?

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

According to Grade, he pulled Dana into the living room and strangled her until she passed out. Then he dragged her to the basement. But she woke up.

[Detective Brian Evans]

I panicked. I ran upstairs. I grabbed a knife, stabbed her in the neck.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

He went upstairs, grabbed a knife and stabbed her in the neck. Great said he had people over for a bonfire at the house that evening and left her dead body in the basement all night. He put a couch in front of the basement door so no one would accidentally find her. The next morning he said he dumped her body in the woods.

[Detective Kim Major]

How do I know that you're not just saying you did something that you didn't do? How do I know that? Tell me something that nobody would know.

[Detective Brian Evans]

I did go back after a few months and I burned a fire. I caught her on fire.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Grade said he poured some gasoline and watched as flames engulfed Dana's remains.

[Detective Brian Evans]

I could have sworn someone on the highway have seen me. But I was out of there.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Detective Major had gotten yet another confession from Sean Grate. Grate said Dana was his first victim. The first time he had killed. Just like in her first interview with Great, Detective Major didn't stop when she got this new confession. She wanted to understand what made Sean Grate decide to kill.

[Detective Kim Major]

When your mind's going there and you think I'm gonna get. I'd like to do that. Who. What does she look like? What age? What are her features? What does she look like?

[Detective Brian Evans]

I keep my mind open. Whoever comes first.

[Detective Kim Major]

Whoever comes first. Okay, so it's opportunistic.

[Detective Brian Evans]

A lot of times we get along good, everybody goes home happy, everybody goes home safe and everything don't even.

[Detective Kim Major]

What goes wrong, what happens. And that makes that switch for you. What? What is it?

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Great mumbled. I don't know.

[Detective Brian Evans]

I really can't explain a lot of it.

[Detective Kim Major]

He begged me through the interview process to help him come up with what his motive was. He said, why did I do this? Tell me why you think I did this.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

When Detective Brian Evans asked Grate about why he murdered Grade offered another possible explanation.

[Detective Brian Evans]

It's almost like Ashland was too relaxed for a moment. All the people, they just. All content with their jobs and just no big deal.

[Chris Tunnell]

Everybody got the guard down or.

[Detective Brian Evans]

But. But I wasn't thinking that way.

[Chris Tunnell]

But now looking back on it, maybe looking back.

[Detective Brian Evans]

I'm not trying to justify it neither. I'm totally wrong.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

The detective spoke with Sean Gray for almost three hours that day. Though a lot of the interview focused on the details of Dana's murder and Great's other violent crimes. At times the back and forth turned light hearted. Even funny. Like when Gray described walking between Ashland and Mansfield so he could get marijuana.

[Detective Kim Major]

Want to tell us where you got that? Are you going to protect somebody with stolen Weed. Who'd you get it from?

[Detective Brian Evans]

I don't know who he was.

[Detective Kim Major]

He's holding that back. That's funny.

[Chris Tunnell]

Won't give up the. No one gives up the weed guy. Come on, now. No one gives up the weed guy.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

The detectives leaned into their rapport with Grade to get more information from him. At one point, they asked Gray to demonstrate how he strangled his victims.

[Detective Kim Major]

Was it the carotid artery or was it the hyoid? Which way did you strangle someone? Because those things all show up in an autopsy.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

At first, Grate talked through how he said he typically strangled someone.

[Detective Brian Evans]

Look at their face and see if I'm getting anywhere.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

But the detectives wanted a full demonstration on video, which Sean Gray said he'd be willing to do. Later in the interview, Major brought it up again.

[Detective Kim Major]

You want to do our little thing? You okay with that?

[Detective Brian Evans]

Yeah.

[Detective Kim Major]

You still comfortable with us?

[Chris Tunnell]

Which would be easier for you to kind of show or to have like a. Like a stuffed animal, doll, teddy bear thing to. However you had that. I can go grab one from these guys or something.

[Detective Brian Evans]

I was thinking I'd demonstrate on you.

[Chris Tunnell]

That's what you want to do? Look at that. Big.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Great wanted to demonstrate his strangulation technique on Detective Evans. Not on a doll or stuffed animal. Not on Kim Major. Only on Brian Evans. This is a pretty violent man. And you said okay?

[Chris Tunnell]

Yes. Well, honestly, at the time of it, you're in there trying to get the best evidence you can. And when he. He agreed to do it and said that he would just do it on me. And. Yes, it just. It's kind of what you do, I guess.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

You weren't armed? Neither you nor Detective Major?

[Chris Tunnell]

No, no, we were not armed. We did knock on the door and tell the jail staff that this was going to be happening. So they didn't see him putting me in a chokehold and come in there and tase us or anything happening. I also let them know, in case something did go bad, you could have

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

lost consciousness in seconds. He could have killed you.

[Chris Tunnell]

I didn't put a whole lot of thought into that. Again, it just went to getting the evidence.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Great said he strangled people while they were standing up. He got up and so did Detective Evans. The first thing Great said was, you're taller than the others.

[Chris Tunnell]

Which was a little eerie at that standpoint. But we went kind of to the back of the wall, and Detective Major had my cell phone. That's all we had at the time.

[Detective Kim Major]

Okay. This is Detective Major. We have Detective Evans in the room. Sean Grate in the room. It's September 15th, 2016. Time, 1704. Shawn's going to demonstrate the way he uses strangulation in cases that we have been discussing.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Graetz started by demonstrating how he said he had strangled Elizabeth Griffith.

[Detective Brian Evans]

We're just joking, like, how she wished she kind of would die. You know what I mean? I was like, so, I'll help you. I'll just go like this. You know what I mean?

[Chris Tunnell]

He had to, like, reach up and kind of got me in a chokehold here, and then. Or back of my head, and then would push forward on the head, which would put your. Anybody's throat or Adam's apple in, like, the crease of their arm. And then he just did, like, a quick flex, saying, then I would just do that. And at that point, obviously, I felt it. I kind of have a bigger Adam's apple. And even that quick, little tense moment that he tensed up, you could feel that on my Adam's apple.

[Detective Brian Evans]

And I just would lean forward and just press.

[Detective Kim Major]

I'm videoing it. I'm trying to keep the camera from shaking. And I look at Brian's eyes, and I'm thinking, this is not good, Brian. Then he lets go of Brian. He keeps describing things. And Brian mouths to me, I'll never do this again.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

And you knew from seeing him do this demonstration that he had killed before.

[Detective Brian Evans]

This way.

[Detective Kim Major]

It was so fluid. My son's wrestle. My husband's a wrestling coach. His motions were so fluid in what he was doing, how he described that. And I was really taken by him demonstrating how their breath would leave their body. He's there when someone's last breath is leaving their body, and it's notable to him. It's. I was taken by it.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

After Sean Gray released Detective Evans, he explained in detail how he strangled each of his victims. And the detectives, they got the evidence they needed.

[Detective Kim Major]

Sean, thank you. That's a lot to ask somebody, and I think not something people would typically agree to do. So,

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

before the interview ended, Detective Major checked again if Sean Grade was holding anything back.

[Detective Kim Major]

Is there anybody else that we're missing that you haven't told me? Because the other day, you said Candace was your first, and that doesn't mean that. That you're a liar. It meant sometimes there's a reason why somebody doesn't want to say something.

[Detective Brian Evans]

The reason why I hesitated about the years ago on the first one was because I'm sure everyone will think that there could be thousands.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Grate said if he talked about Dana, everyone would think there could be thousands of victims. He said, I'm not that cold.

[Detective Kim Major]

So you felt like, well, if I give her that other one, I'm going to get accused of a thousand things that I didn't do? Is that what you're saying?

[Detective Brian Evans]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Great claimed he had gotten everything, all his secrets, out of his system. He said, I have four bodies.

[Detective Kim Major]

He promised me there were no more, but there would be some little clue or some little tip in the interview that indicated there might be more.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

At this point, you realize he's been killing for years. Do you ask yourself, how deep does this go?

[Detective Kim Major]

I ask myself that every time, every interview, every day through the the duration of working the case.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

Nearly three hours into the interview, Detective Major read Shawn grate the charges against him and wrapped things up.

[Detective Kim Major]

Sean, what questions do you have for Detective Evans? You and myself?

[Detective Brian Evans]

I'm not too sure about any questions at this moment.

[Detective Kim Major]

Come on, Evans.

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

But then, just a few days later, Detective Major would be back to press. Shawn, Great once again. Because as it turned out, Great had not told the entire truth.

[Detective Kim Major]

You for some reason, held some back. And I'm going to ask you for your honesty. Do you know what I'm talking about?

[Narrator (John Quinones)]

The hand in the window is a production of abc audio and 2020, hosted by me, john quinones. Produced by madeline wood, camille peterson, kiara powell edited by gianna palmer. Our supervising producer is susie lu. Music and mixing by evan viola. Special thanks to katie dendos, janice johnston, michelle margulis, caitlin schiffer, rachel walker, annalisa linder, joseph diaz, jonathan balthaser, gail deutch, gary wynn, stephanie mcbee, natalie cardenas and samantha wanderer. Josh cohan is our director of podcast programming.

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