David Deseno (3:56)

Here we go. I'm David deseno, professor of psychology at Northeastern University and author of Emotional the Power of Gratitude, Compassion and Pride.

Dr. Laurie Santos (4:08)

So Dave, one of the things I love about your book is that it really discusses in a lot of detail the limits of willpower. I think in the book you actually call it a candle in the wind. So why is willpower so fragile?

David Deseno (4:20)

Well, let me give you some examples of why I say that. So we tend to use willpower when we're trying to pursue a long term goal. You know, something that has a big reward in the future but might be difficult in the moment or require some effort on our part to persevere toward. You know, whether you're trying to study to do well in school or on an exam, exercising and eating right, saving money rather than buying the new iPhone. And we tend to try and use willpower to overcome our desires for more immediate gratification. And if it's something that we consider even more important, you know, this time of the year we can think about New year's resolutions, right? 8% of New Year's resolutions are kept till the year's end, 25% are gone in the first week or two of January. And so we're doing something really wrong, right? If pursuing our long term goals we all know leads to success, yet are failure rate is that high. And there's a lot of reasons why willpower is weak. For most of our history here on Earth As a human species, the future was very uncertain. I didn't know if the food I was looking at was going to be here tomorrow. I didn't know if I was going to be here in two months. But now the world is a lot more certain, and it's just that our mental calibration hasn't caught up to that certainty. If you're always using willpower to kind of tamp down desires for what you want and in the moment, then your body is in kind of a perpetual state of stress. You're always trying to tamp down one desire to persevere towards something in the long term, to not eat something you want, but to exercise, that is a problem. Work by Greg Miller, who's a psychologist at Northwestern University, was looking at this in terms of students in high school and college who were studying for exams. What he found is when you train kids in these cognitive strategies to build willpower, to build grit, to kind of suppress their desires, yeah, they perform better. But there was actually premature aging to their DNA because of the stress, which, if you extrapolate out, means, yeah, I'm doing better, but I'm not gonna be around as long to enjoy the fruits of that success. But the other problem is, oftentimes we choose not to invoke willpower in the first place because we're really good as humans at engaging in rationalization, right? I deserve the extra scoop of Ben and Jerry's. I've been good this week. I deserve to spend money on myself or whatever it might. If we go that route, we're not going to engage in willpower in the first place. We're going to give ourselves the easy way out.

Dr. Laurie Santos (6:47)

This looks pretty bad for New Year's resolutions, right? Like this one thing we usually rely on, willpower is not going to save us. So if not willpower, if not pushing ourselves, what can we do?

David Deseno (6:57)

Economists talk about this problem as they use a fancy term which is called intertemporal choice, which basically means, do I want an immediate gratification now, or am I willing to forego that so that I can have a better gain in the future? And if you think about why we as a human species have the ability for self control. Self control didn't evolve so that I could save from my 401k. None of it existed. For most of our evolutionary history. What mattered for our success was the ability to be a little bit selfless, as opposed to selfish, that is, to cooperate with others, to be fair, to be honest, to be generous. Those are the traits that allowed Us to be good partners and valuable partners to other people. And what underlie those abilities are what I call moral emotions. Things like gratitude, things like compassion, things like authentic pride, not arrogance and hubris. They tend to make us more willing to be selfless, to cooperate with others, to engage in self sacrifice, to be willing to tamp down our desires for immediate gratification. You know, people often ask me, laurie, you know, Dave, if I want to be a success, should I be a nice guy or a nice woman, or should I be kind of a selfish jerk? And by that I mean, should I cooperate and work fairly with others, or should I basically exploit others and be very self interested? And the answer, what science shows is I say, well, what's your time frame? If you want to be a success in the short term, yeah, you can be a jerk, you can be selfish, you can exploit others. Individuals who are self interested, who exploit other people's rise very quickly, but over time they begin to fail because no one wants to cooperate with them, no one wants to work with them. And individuals who are selfless, who have the ability to control their desires for immediate gratification, selfish behaviors do well in the long run. And so a lot of what I argue in this book and in my work is that we are not using the emotional tools that we have in our arsenal to help us succeed in the long run. We're relying on these weaker tools of kind of tamping down emotional responses via willpower that research has shown are pretty fragile.

Dr. Laurie Santos (9:17)

So let's zoom in on one of these tools in particular. You mentioned gratitude. Like, what is gratitude?

David Deseno (9:22)

Yeah, so gratitude is the emotion that we feel when someone gives us something of value at some cost to themselves, a present or financial assistance. It can be a shoulder to cry on. It can be someone who's going to help us and mentor us. The important thing about it is that we feel that the benefit that this person is giving us we couldn't achieve very easily on our own. And they're doing it not to help themselves, but at some cost. And it's not a feeling of indebtedness in the negative sense, but a feeling of this person really helped me and I value that and I want to go above and beyond to pay them back. That feeling is gratitude.

Dr. Laurie Santos (10:03)

I mean, gratitude sounds awesome and it increases happiness. But you know, at first blush, it doesn't seem obvious that this emotion has anything to do with willpower. You know, that feeling grateful isn't going to help me eat healthier or get to the gym in the morning, but like, what's the connection there?

David Deseno (10:17)

Well, the beautiful thing about gratitude is, and any emotion really is, while we feel it, it kind of sets our expectations for what we should value and what we should do next. Why would you have an emotion that's only focused on the past? Right. If you're feeling an emotion that can't change anything you do in the future, it's a waste. Even metabolically, why would the brain want you to waste its time feeling something? And so I tell people, gratitude is really about the future. It makes us value long term goals more than immediate gratification.

Dr. Laurie Santos (10:49)

You may still doubt the idea that gratitude is more powerful for protecting our future selves than good old fashioned willpower, but there's some super cool scientific results to back it up. Ones that we'll hear about right after this break. The Happiness Lab will be right back.

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Dr. Laurie Santos (12:49)

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David Deseno (15:03)

So in our lab, we bring people in, we have them answer a Bunch of questions of the form, would you rather have $10 now or $30 in three weeks? Right. And to make it real, we tell them we're going to pick one of your answers. And hon, so if you said I'd rather have $10 now than $30 in three weeks, we gave you $10. If you said I'd rather have $30 in three weeks, we'd send you a check in three weeks. And what we found right, is that most people tend to be pretty impatient. That is, they discount the value of future rewards a lot. So for example, our average subject said they would take $17 now rather than $100 in a year. Another way of saying that is they viewed $100 in a year as worth $17 now. And I don't know about you or your listeners, but if you don $17 to survive right now, then passing up an opportunity to quintuple your money, given what the banks are paying, is not the greatest decision. When we made people feel grateful, right, suddenly how much they discounted the future, how impatient they were to get that money in their hands changed. These folks suddenly viewed $100 in a year not as worth $17 now but as worth $30. So we'd have to give them at least $30 before they passed up the opportunity for 100 DOL is they're discounting the value of a future reward less. And if you take this and you extrapolate it out to the real world, to decisions that matter, you know, other people have found that people who experience gratitude are more willing to exercise for better health. They're more willing to save their money rather than spend it on impulse buys. They're more willing to work harder for long term goals. And so what we see here is just by changing the emotional state you're in, how much you value the future changes.

Dr. Laurie Santos (16:56)

And so that raises the question of, you know, how did you as this clever experimentalist get people to experience gratitude? You know, how do you make people more grateful?

David Deseno (17:04)

In the lab, one way we do this is we have them doing this task on the computer that's designed to be God awful boring.

Dr. Laurie Santos (17:12)

Psychologists are good at that. Yeah, it's a God awful boring task.

David Deseno (17:15)

God awful boring. And right as they think they're about to be done, the computer is rigged to crash or to look like it crashes on them. And then the experimenter comes in and says, oh, I'm sorry, you're going to have to do this all over again. Let me go get the tech. And of course people are not happy we have somebody else in the lab who our subjects believe is another subject taking the study, but it's actually an actor who works for us. And this person will get up, walk over to them and say, oh, this is terrible, I'm pretty good with computers, let me see if I can help you. And so she starts futzing with the wires and surreptitiously hits a key that starts a timer. And lo and behold, bang, the computer comes back on. And 95% of our subjects are incredibly grateful for this. 5% of them think somehow they fixed it themselves. But for the most part, when they get excluded, but for the most part, people are very grateful because they don't want to do this God awful task over again. And in that way, what we can find is that the people who are actually experiencing gratitude in the moment compared to people who are feeling neutral or people who are feeling happy. And that was important because we wanted to show it wasn't just that you were feeling positive, but that it was something really particular about gratitude. What gratitude makes you do is engage in self control. And as I said, evolutionarily speaking, that's so you're willing to be less selfish. But if you think about it, when you feel gratitude, there's one person besides strangers or people you meet on the street or friends who you can help that's important to your own future goals, and that is your own future self. And what we find is when you're feeling grateful, yes, you're willing to sacrifice for other people, but you're also willing to sacrifice for your own future self. And that's how you can pivot the power of gratitude from just being this emotion that has kind of a moral cast to do the right thing, to repay debts, or to behave morally to actually help your own future self achieve her or his own goals.

Dr. Laurie Santos (19:14)

I wanted to talk a little bit about some of the specific domains in which gratitude helps, because I just find these data totally fascinating. So in your book, you show that gratitude does just help you on financial decision making. It can also help you, like at your job.

David Deseno (19:27)

Yeah, it just depends what your job is. So, you know, Adam Grant has this great data where he shows that people who are working in a call center and talk about a thankless job, you're calling people up for fundraising, asking people to donate money. When gratitude is expressed in those offices, people's productivity goes up 50%. And not only do they work harder, but they're actually happy about it, they feel good about it, and so there's no stress there. When You're a doctor, right? If you're feeling gratitude, it makes you more willing to invest the effort to do the right thing. And you're more willing, the data show, to engage in greater thought in terms of your diagnoses. And so gratitude, in whatever the realm is that we're talking about, by giving you more patience, by giving you and nudging you, is going to improve the outcome. And while it's doing it, it's going to solve two other problems for you and I. And this is something else that I really want to talk about is that it does it in a way that's better for your mind and your body in terms of your physical health and your mental well being.

Dr. Laurie Santos (20:34)

And so talk about the mental well being part, because one of the things we're trying to do in this miniseries is to help people find strategies that can allow them to achieve their goals, but in doing so can make them happy in the moment too. And that's really the amazing thing about gratitude, is it doesn't just help you exercise more and save more, it feels good. Unlike willpower.

David Deseno (20:53)

That's right. So David Brooks likes to talk about that. There are two types of virtues people have. Resume virtues, which are the virtues like being dogged, working hard, having grit, trying to get ahead. And eulogy virtues, things like being fair, being generous, being kind. And the eulogy virtues are the ones that ultimately we want to be remembered for. They're the ones that draw other people to us, that give us the relationships that help our lives. And so if we're pursuing our own success in whatever realm it might be, you know, as I said for millennia, the way to do that was to have good character, to be fair, be generous. It used to be that eulogy virtues and resume virtues were the same. There was no difference between them. But because of the way we structure our lives now we can pursue success in a very atomistic manner. That is, you know, we can just be dogged. And if we earn enough money, we can meet all of our needs. We don't have to have other people around us as much. But that leads to a not very fulfilling life. And it's a very stressful existence. When you choose to pursue success by cultivating emotions like gratitude by virtue of what you're doing, yes, it's going to give you the self control to pursue your goals, to have patience, to persevere in the face of difficulty, but it's also going to change your relationships. Right. When we feel gratitude, not only do we work harder, but we show more appreciation to others around us, it makes us behave more loyally. It makes us behave more compassionately toward other people. And so we build that social safety net that are there to buttress us. And so when you look at gratitude, people who feel more gratitude, yes, they exercise more, yes, they save more more, yes, they get ahead in life more, but they also sleep better at night, they also have better blood pressure, they show less stress reactivity than do people who don't experience gratitude more often. They even have better cholesterol. How and why these things are intertwined is an interesting story having to do with the stress. And do they exercise more because of that gratitude, et cetera. But gratitude really is a buffer. It helps us pursue our resume virtues and our eulogy virtues at the same time.

Dr. Laurie Santos (23:14)

What's so striking about this, though, is that I think if you asked people, people often think those resume virtues and eulogy virtues are in conflict. Right. Like, you know, to boost up your resume, you gotta, you know, stop feeling your fellow man and like. But it's just the opposite. So so much of this podcast is about the idea that our minds are leading us astray. Right. We have this bad intuition about what gratitude's gonna do. Like, it makes us weak, you know, it's gonna make us help others rather than getting ahead of life.

David Deseno (23:38)

Yeah. And part of that, right, is I think our resume and our eulogy virtues, we think of them as distinct, but for most of our evolutionary history, they weren't. And we're kind of told that the way to succeed is to be self interested, but if you actually look at the data, it's not true. I think we're being sold a bill of goods. It is. In the short term, the faster way is to kind of be self interested. But in the long run, it is people who experience gratitude, who experience compassion and empathy, that do really, really well. You know, my friend Bob Frank's an economist at Cornell, and he wrote this great book called Success and Luck. And he talks about the illusion that people have that the way that any of us succeeded was through our own self determination. And I'm not saying that doesn't matter, of course it does. But there's a lot of luck along the way. And if you think about what a lot of luck is, is it's not really luck. It's people opening doors for us. It's people supporting us in our hours of need and helping us out and us doing the same for them. Right. That's what a lot of luck is. Not all. When people do that for us, we Feel gratitude. And when we feel gratitude, it makes us not only want to pay those people back, but to pay it forward to other people. So, for example, in our studies that we were talking about, when we make people feel gratitude in the lab, and then they leave the lab thinking the experiment is over, and we have a stranger approach them who asks for help.

Dr. Laurie Santos (25:06)

Help.

David Deseno (25:07)

They'll help the stranger too. And the reason why is when you feel gratitude, it makes you want to help someone else, right? The brain is nudging you that way because in the long term, that's a successful strategy. And so the beautiful thing about gratitude is it makes us pay it forward. And it creates kind of an ongoing cycle. And so I think people often feel that gratitude can be a sign of weakness, but really gratitude is an emotion of power.

Dr. Laurie Santos (25:34)

And so hopefully the listeners are sold on this idea that becoming more grateful is a good thing. But then that raises the question, how do you do that? What can listeners do to improve their sense of gratitude?

David Deseno (25:44)

One strategy is simply doing daily reflections, thinking for a few minutes about what it is that you're grateful for in life. Lots of people do gratitude diaries. The trick there, right, is we all have the two or three things that we're incredibly grateful for in our lives. But if you think about the same things over and over again, you, they're going to lose their power, you're going to habituate to it, it's going to become boring. And so think about little things. Think about the person who gave you their seat on the bus or the subway. Think about the person who gave you directions, who let you in on the highway, someone who held the door for you. And you might say, dave, really? Is that going to work? It does. So, you know, I told you earlier about the way we induce gratitude in our lab, where we have these big shenanigans we go through, where computers crash on people. But when we simply ask people, reflect on something in your life that you're grateful. Whether it's something somebody did for you, your parents, a friend, the universe, if you believe in God, God, whatever it might be, those simple reflections produce the same exact effects. And so it may sound trite, but it's not cultivating gratitude daily in your life. We'll do this through reflections. Another way is to engage in something called the reciprocity ring. This is great. If you have an office and you're trying to create a culture of gratitude or a classroom, or even for families at home, have everybody take a post it note and write on the post it note something they need help with. Then on a board or on the refrigerator or wherever it might be, stick up those post it notes in kind of a circle. Now everybody take a different color post it note and write your name on it and go up and stick it next to a post it note that's up there already where a person's requesting help. So you're saying, ah, John says he needs help with this. I, Dave, I'm going to help him with this. Right. And then what you do is draw lines or tie strings or tape whatever you might be. And what you'll see is connections in this circle. And then most importantly, go give that assistance that you said. And what this does is a few things. One, it shows that asking for help is okay and offering to help is okay. And by you actually helping the person who you said you were going to help, that person feels gratitude. And what our research shows is when that person feels gratitude, even, it increases the probability very dramatically that they're just gonna go and offer help to someone else. And it's a way of creating kind of a norm and a culture for gratitude in your family or your classroom or your workplace.

Dr. Laurie Santos (28:13)

Have you used this in your lab or in your own family?

David Deseno (28:16)

Yeah. Before I started doing this research, I wouldn't say I wasn't an ungrateful person, but I don't think I thought a lot about gratitude in my life. But what I realized through doing this work is that you can curate your own emotional life. Right. Emotions don't just happen to us. We can curate what we feel by taking time to think about what we want to feel, by paying attention to the people that help us as opposed to the people that annoy us. And so what I've begun to do in my own daily life now is to do that is to focus on when somebody does something for me or someone helps me me, to not say thank you and quickly move by that, but to focus on it for a few minutes to curate the emotions that I feel are important and valuable in my daily experience as opposed to the ones that aren't. And what happens when you do that is it begins to change the lens through which you automatically view your life so that suddenly gratitude isn't something that you're trying to curate, but it becomes a lens that you pick out things with daily in life. And I think it becomes a habit in some ways. And the beautiful thing about gratitude as opposed to habits is, you know, if I have a habit to save money that works for saving money, if I have a habit to study that works for studying. But if I have a habit to experience gratitude, that's going to bleed over into making me better able to pursue my long term goals in any realm. And I would encourage your listeners to try and create gratitude and a habit.

Dr. Laurie Santos (29:48)

After talking to Dave and hearing about his work, I've decided on a personal goal for this new decade. I'm going to stop sabotaging future Laurie. I'm going to stop assuming that willpower will save me. Instead, I'm going to harness the power of my moral emotions. I'm going to work harder to become a bit more grateful, starting now. So here goes. I'm so grateful that Dave and so many other scientists took time out of their busy schedules to share these insights with us. I'm so, so thankful that we all have a fresh start with this new decade to make a bunch of positive changes that we want to see in 2020. And I'm so, so grateful for you. Thanks so much for listening to this podcast and thank you for being a part of this journey to use science to live a little bit better. And finally, I'd be super grateful if you joined Future lari for our third bonus episode of the Happiness Lab 2020. The Happiness Lab is co written and produced by Ryan Dilley. The show was mastered by Evan Viola and our original music was composed by Zachary Silver. Special thanks to Ben Davis, Mia LaBelle, Julia Barton, Carly Migliore, Heather Fain, Maggie Taylor, Maya Koenig and Jacob Weisberg. The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. American Military University is the number one provider of education to our military and veterans in the country. They offer something truly unique special rates and grants for the entire family, making education affordable not just for those who serve, but also for their loved ones. If you have a military or veteran family member and are looking for affordable, high quality education, AMU is the place for you. Visit AMU Apus to learn more. That's AMU Apus edumilitary from coast to coast. Unlock adventure at Red Lion Hotels by Sinesta where restful sleep, friendly service and local knowledge await. Whether for business or pleasure. Spend less and make more of every trip. When you sign up for Sinesta Travel Pass, you'll get our best rates instantly. Go to sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock our best rates with Sonesta Travel Pass Here today, Rome tomorrow. Join now@sonesta.com Terms and conditions apply. One of the things that gives me joy every summer is growing a few pots of mini pumpkins on my side porch. And that's why I was so excited to hear about Mill. Mill is an effortless, odorless food recycler. Well, you know all those food scraps you toss into the garbage every time you cook? Or that random carton of takeout that's been in your fridge forever that you kind of need to toss out but you know it's going to be stinky? Well, with Mill, you can take all that dead food and turn it into something that's good for the planet and for pumpkins. Mill is the cleanest, easiest way to prevent food waste at home. It makes keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in. Go to mill.comthl for $75 off a mill.

David Deseno (33:17)

This is an I Heart podcast.