Podcast Summary: "Have You Got Trust Issues?" – The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos
Episode Details:
- Title: Have You Got Trust Issues?
- Show: The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos
- Host: Dr. Laurie Santos
- Guest: Rachel Botsman, Author of How to Trust and Be Trusted
- Release Date: March 24, 2025
Introduction to Trust and the World Happiness Report
In this episode, Dr. Laurie Santos delves into the concept of trust and its profound impact on global happiness. Building on the findings from the 2025 World Happiness Report, which highlights a significant decline in social trust post-pandemic, Dr. Santos invites Rachel Botsman, a renowned expert on trust, to explore the intricacies of trust issues affecting both individual well-being and societal structures.
Defining Trust: Beyond Conventional Wisdom
Rachel Botsman begins by challenging traditional definitions of trust, emphasizing its nuanced nature. She introduces the idea that trust is fundamentally a "confident relationship with the unknown" (03:56), highlighting that trust is most crucial in situations fraught with uncertainty and high risk. This perspective shifts the common association of trust with stability and reliability, underscoring its role in navigating the unpredictable aspects of life.
Key Quote:
"Trust is needed in those unknown situations." – Rachel Botsman [03:56]
Types of Trust: Institutional, Interpersonal, and Social
Botsman categorizes trust into three primary domains:
- Institutional Trust: Confidence in systems like the legal system, healthcare, education, and government.
- Interpersonal Trust: Trust within personal circles, including family, friends, and coworkers.
- Social Trust: Trust in strangers and the broader society.
She also presents a concentric circle model:
- Trust in Yourself: Confidence in one's own abilities and decisions.
- Trust in Others: Belief in the reliability and integrity of others.
- Trust Placed in You: The trust others have in you.
Key Quote:
"Trust is so contextual. We are often missing the part that it's about the situation." – Rachel Botsman [08:45]
Overtrusting: When Trust Becomes a Liability
Botsman shares a personal narrative about her nanny, whom her family later discovered was involved in criminal activities (10:03). This story illustrates the pitfalls of overtrusting based on superficial cues such as appearance and demeanor. She identifies common red flags and biases that lead to misplaced trust, such as relying on stereotypes or neglecting to seek external perspectives.
Key Quote:
"Most hires at work... often give our trust away if it is convenient." – Rachel Botsman [11:27]
Botsman emphasizes the importance of being aware of one's biases and signals that influence trust decisions, advocating for a more deliberate and informed approach to trusting others.
Distrust: The Three Phases of Erosion
Exploring the opposite of trust, Botsman differentiates between low trust and distrust. She outlines three phases of distrust:
- Defensiveness: Becoming guarded after feeling vulnerable or exploited.
- Disengagement: Pulling back from relationships or systems where trust has been compromised.
- Disenchantment: Actively opposing and seeking to dismantle the source of distrust, leading to toxic dynamics.
Key Quote:
"Distrust can become all-consuming... it's very, very toxic." – Rachel Botsman [28:21]
Societal Shifts: Trust in the Era of Social Media and Populism
The conversation shifts to societal changes in trust, particularly the transition from institutional trust to a more distributed, sideways trust influenced by social media and influencers. Botsman observes that younger generations, such as Gen Z and Gen Alpha, tend to trust peers and online personalities over traditional institutions, contributing to political polarization and the rise of populist movements.
Key Quote:
"Trust is flowing sideways now, not upwards." – Rachel Botsman [30:09]
She criticizes the superficial trust placed in online influencers, pointing out that these one-way trust relationships lack the reciprocation essential for building genuine social bonds.
Impact on Politics and Voting Behavior
Botsman discusses the World Happiness Report's findings on political trust, noting that both far-left and far-right groups exhibit high trust but in different domains. The far-right may have high trust within tight-knit circles but distrust institutions and outsiders, while the far-left might display lower interpersonal trust and higher loneliness. This dichotomy weakens the social fabric, making bipartisan understanding and cooperation more challenging.
Key Quote:
"Both sides have high trust, but in different things. It's not that they lack trust, they just trust differently." – Rachel Botsman [35:34]
Overcoming Trust Barriers: Strategies and Solutions
Botsman offers practical strategies to rebuild trust:
- Trust Pause: Taking a moment to assess whether trust should be given in a specific situation (20:31).
- Local Trust Building: Focusing on strengthening trust within communities and personal relationships rather than solely relying on large institutions.
- Engaging in Difficult Conversations: Encouraging open dialogue across differing viewpoints to foster understanding and reduce distrust.
Key Quote:
"Trust is not about withdrawal. It's about local ties and community connections." – Rachel Botsman [47:50]
She also introduces the concept of "trust barriers"—factors that impede trust, such as financial insecurity or fear of vulnerability—and suggests questioning their origins and assessing whether they are based on reality or perception.
Key Quote:
"Understanding where your trust barriers come from can help you address them effectively." – Rachel Botsman [43:39]
Final Thoughts: Rebuilding the Social Fabric
Concluding the discussion, Botsman emphasizes the importance of local and community-based trust over large, unwieldy institutions. By nurturing relationships within smaller circles, individuals can contribute to a stronger, more resilient social fabric that supports collective happiness and well-being.
Key Quote:
"Focus on local trust. Stop looking outward and upward so much." – Rachel Botsman [50:03]
Dr. Laurie Santos wraps up the episode by highlighting the actionable insights shared by Botsman, encouraging listeners to apply these strategies to enhance trust in their own lives and communities.
Conclusion: This episode of The Happiness Lab provides a comprehensive exploration of trust, its complexities, and its critical role in personal and societal happiness. Through insightful dialogue with Rachel Botsman, listeners gain a deeper understanding of trust dynamics and are equipped with practical tools to navigate trust issues in an increasingly uncertain world.