Holiday Survival Guide II: Perfect Gifts and Fighting Fatigue (with Rainn Wilson)

Summary

The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos

Episode Title: Holiday Survival Guide II: Perfect Gifts and Fighting Fatigue (with Rainn Wilson)
Air Date: December 15, 2025
Host: Dr. Laurie Santos
Guest: Rainn Wilson (actor, author, and host of Soul Boom)

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Episode Overview

This special holiday episode of The Happiness Lab features a candid and insightful conversation between Dr. Laurie Santos and Rainn Wilson. Together, they tackle listeners’ biggest holiday challenges—navigating the stress of gift-giving and financial pressures, protecting against fatigue and workaholism, and infusing the season with meaning and joy. Drawing on psychology, humor, and Rainn’s unique perspective on spirituality (and The Office), the episode is filled with practical tips, personal stories, and moments of levity to help listeners survive—and even thrive—during the holidays.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Holiday Stress: Joy or Dread?

[03:53–06:13]

• Laurie opens up: Holidays can be stressful for many, despite the expectation to be “the most wonderful time of the year.” She admits her stress response to winter festivities, preferring Halloween for its fun and low pressure.
• Rainn offers balance: While a member of the Bahá'í Faith with a variety of rituals, his favorite holiday is Thanksgiving because of its focus on gratitude and simple connection, but he acknowledges holidays can be fraught for many.

Memorable Quotes:

• "You say the holidays are coming and I feel my cortisol levels going up a little bit, my stress hormones. I'm not a winter holiday fan." — Dr. Laurie Santos [05:44]

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2. The Pressure of Gift-Giving & Consumerism

[06:13–11:23]

• Listener query: Rachel asks how to deal with the stress and consumerism of holiday gift-giving: “How much to spend? Is it a good gift? Will they like it? Who do I have to buy for?”
• Rainn references The Office’s Princess Unicorn episode: He jokingly suggests everyone gifting the same toy as a funny solution.
• **Both discuss the expectation of always bringing something—wine, chocolates—to gatherings, even if not welcome or needed.
• Advice: Focus on gifts that foster connection—like a framed photo, shared experience, or deep conversation.
• Laurie emphasizes presence over presents and suggests leaning into cheap, personalized gifts.

Memorable Quotes:

• “One thing that drives me crazy, Laurie, is, like, the pressure to bring something over when you go to visit someone... Why do we do that? We don't have to do that.” — Rainn Wilson [07:20]
• “Getting back to the reason behind the season, as cheesy as it sounds.” — Dr. Laurie Santos [08:19]

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3. Financial Pressures of the Holidays

[09:47–12:03]

• Inflation and travel: Rainn highlights how travel and gifts put financial stress on families—flying “has gotten way more expensive.” Families need to be more sensitive to differing budgets.
• Laurie’s advice: Rethink rituals to match your values rather than default expectations; spending time together need not be expensive.

Memorable Quotes:

• "If you have to cancel, I think that's fine to take care of your finances… We have to just be very sensitive to where people are financially." — Rainn Wilson [10:10]

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4. Regifting & Coping With Gift Fails

[12:03–14:21]

• Funny listener story: A listener accidentally regifts the exact present she received the prior year (a foot massager) to the original giver.
• Rainn champions regifting: “I'm a big fan... I might give it back to the exact same person—that's how I roll.”
• Laurie suggests: Self-compassion—everyone gives a bad gift sometimes; it’s OK.

Memorable Quotes:

• “Maybe write down on a little Post-it note who gave you the coffee, so you don't give it back to the same person.” — Dr. Laurie Santos [13:30]
• “It's the thought that counts.” — Rainn Wilson [14:19]

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5. Fatigue, Perfectionism & Workaholism During the Holidays

[14:21–25:39]

• Listener anxieties: Overwhelm from “so much to do,” work stress, and perfectionism.
• Oxygen mask analogy: Rainn draws on the airline safety reminder—take care of yourself first to better serve others.
• Laurie urges:
  • Notice feelings of overwhelm as important signals (like a “tire warning light”).
  • Take things OFF your plate (not just add more).
  • Self-compassion: You don’t have to fix deep-seated issues in one holiday.
• Workaholism: Rainn explains it often has roots in seeking love via achievement (“cookie under the mattress” analogy).
• Practical strategy: Remove work email from your phone during holidays, or use the “phone on a shelf” method to break compulsive checking.
• Boundary setting: Suggests families make phone baskets for gatherings as a mental wellness hack.

Memorable Quotes:

• “If you're really that busy that you can't be merry, you're doing Christmas wrong.” — Rainn Wilson [15:40]
• “Putting your phone on a shelf, not in your pocket... reduces your interactions with it tenfold.” — Rainn Wilson [21:19]
• “Noticing those moments of frustration... gives you a nice checklist for things you can pay attention to in the new year.” — Dr. Laurie Santos [23:36]

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6. Spirituality & Finding Deeper Meaning

[28:13–34:47]

• Dr. Laurie asks: How can we create more meaning and joy in the season, especially with so many feeling a “crisis of spiritual meaning”?
• Rainn clarifies: Spirituality need not be religious; it’s about recognizing our non-material essence—soul, spirit, consciousness.
• Bringing meaning: Emphasizes compassion, humility, service, and love—“these tools give our lives meaning and joy.”
• Strategy: Develop family/friends rituals—sharing gratitude, commemorating loved ones, tiny acts of connection.

Memorable Quotes:

• “What is spirituality?... That there's something more than just an animal with a big brain and a meat suit. At least that's how I view it.” — Rainn Wilson [29:44]
• “It's through connection that we find the greatest joy and happiness.” — Rainn Wilson [31:13]

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7. Tiny Moments: Gratitude & Awe

[32:20–36:55]

• Gratitude as a superpower: Rainn suggests shifting focus to what’s good, even during irritating moments at family gatherings.
• Practical rituals: Go around the table and have everyone share something they’re grateful for—this fosters connection and positivity.
• Gratitude as a virtuous cycle: Laurie notes one act of gratitude can spiral, seeding more joy for all.
• Awe and wonder: Both discuss the health benefits of awe. Take moments in nature—even a cold star-gazing walk can provide a “reset.”
• Spreading joy: Express gratitude to family members (even by text or phone), watch it ripple out.

Memorable Quotes:

• “Holiday gatherings, when you feel overwhelmed… shift your mindset to one of gratitude.” — Rainn Wilson [32:26]
• “The number of health benefits and psychological benefits to feeling awe and wonder are legion.” — Rainn Wilson [34:51]
• “Just these tiny moments of experiencing nature… can really slow you down and give you that sense of awe and wonder.” — Dr. Laurie Santos [35:59]

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “You say the holidays are coming and I feel my cortisol levels going up… I’m not a winter holiday fan.” — Dr. Laurie Santos [05:44]
• “One thing that drives me crazy... is the pressure to bring something over. Why do we do that? We don't have to.” — Rainn Wilson [07:20]
• “Getting back to the reason behind the season, as cheesy as it sounds.” — Dr. Laurie Santos [08:19]
• “If you're really that busy that you can't be merry, you're doing Christmas wrong.” — Rainn Wilson [15:40]
• “It’s the thought that counts.” — Rainn Wilson [14:19]
• “Put your phone on a shelf, not in your pocket... reduces your interactions with it tenfold.” — Rainn Wilson [21:19]
• “Noticing those moments of frustration... gives you a nice checklist for things you can pay attention to in the new year.” — Dr. Laurie Santos [23:36]
• “There’s something in us… more than just an animal with a big brain and a meat suit.” — Rainn Wilson [29:44]
• “It’s through connection that we find the greatest joy and happiness.” — Rainn Wilson [31:13]
• “Gratitude is a superpower.” — Rainn Wilson [32:26]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [03:53] Episode content begins, holiday stress
• [06:13] Gift-giving stress and consumerism
• [09:47] Financial pressure and rethinking rituals
• [12:03] Regifting and self-compassion in giving
• [14:21] Coping with fatigue, perfectionism, and overwhelm
• [18:03] Workaholism — roots and hacks
• [21:06] The “phone on a shelf” strategy for family connection
• [28:13] Cultivating meaning and spirituality at the holidays
• [32:20] Rituals of gratitude
• [34:47] Awe, wonder, and finding joy in small moments
• [36:55] Episode wrap up

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Tone and Style

• The conversation is warm, honest, and very down-to-earth, blending practical psychology with Rainn Wilson’s quirky humor and heartfelt perspective.
• Both Laurie and Rainn keep things conversational, often leaning into gentle self-deprecation and jokes from The Office.
• The advice remains compassionate, non-prescriptive, and emphasizes self-forgiveness, creativity, and connection over perfection.

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Key Takeaways

• Holidays can be stressful, and that's normal. It’s okay not to feel merry all the time.
• Gift-giving should prioritize connection, presence, and thoughtfulness—not expense or conformity.
• It’s okay to change traditions; tailor your celebrations to fit your values and your means.
• Practice self-compassion and be gentle with yourself if things go wrong.
• Protect your mental and emotional energy: set boundaries, remove work impulses, and embrace “phone on a shelf.”
• Use the holidays as an opportunity to plant seeds for longer-term personal growth, rather than to solve all problems at once.
• Celebrate meaning through tiny rituals of gratitude, awe, and connection. Even small moments can cascade into lasting positivity.

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A happier holiday to all—and remember, it's the thought (and the connection) that counts.
—The Happiness Lab Team

Transcript

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

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[Rainn Wilson]

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[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Pushkin. Happy Holidays, Happiness Lab fans, this is supposed to be the most wonderful time of the year, but many of us kinda wish December came with a survival guide. Which is why we asked you to tell us all your holiday stresses so that I and my special seasonal guest, actor Rainn Wilson, can help find some solutions. You probably know Rain from Dwight on the Office or his countless other acting credits, but Rain is also an author.

[Sponsor Narrator (Bumble/Chase)]

And a podcaster with lots of wise.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Things to say about spirituality and what it means to be human. If you haven't already, you should check out his show Soulboom.

[Sponsor Narrator (Bumble/Chase)]

Last time, Rain and I discussed dining.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Table dynamics like how to defuse political.

[Sponsor Narrator (Bumble/Chase)]

Arguments over dessert and how to deflect annoying questions about your lack of a love life.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But we only scratched the surface on all the seasonal woes you asked us about, so let's dive back into that conversation. So Rain, I'm just curious, like when you think about holidays, what do you think about? Although I guess there's one thing you think about when you think about holidays, which is you think about your wife, whose Davis Holiday. Correct.

[Rainn Wilson]

My favorite holiday holiday is holiday Reinhorn, my wife. So during the holidays I'm thinking about holiday. But listen, I am a member of the Baha' I Faith. We have our own set of holidays or holy days. But I also grew up celebrating Christmas with big parts of my family and I have positive memories. My favorite holiday is Thanksgiving because I feel like if you can put the thanks and Thanksgiving and really just enjoy eating together and connecting over a table, it's incredibly powerful. But yeah, I have good experiences and pleasurable thoughts, but I know it can be fraught for a lot of people.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Okay, we're going to have interesting conversation because my instant reaction about holiday is not but it is awesome. It is like you say the holidays are coming and I feel my cortisol levels going up a little bit, my stress hormones and yeah, I'm not a winter holiday fan. I'm a Halloween girl. I like the costumes, I like the Spooky. I like the candy. Thanksgiving's fine, but the winter holidays. Yeah, my stress levels rise. So I'm going to need your help here.

[Rainn Wilson]

You got it. Here we go.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Okay. Gift giving holidays feel like a time when we're supposed to be giving people stuff. And it means that we sometimes get sucked into the consumerist culture that makes us feel kind of crappy. And this was something that Rachel brought up. She noted that her holiday happiness sucker is the stress of gift giving. How much to spend? Is it a good gift? Do they actually want it? Who do I have to buy it for? Feeling shame or guilt? If someone got you a gift and you didn't match the gift, how can we get past the consumerism in the holiday season? And I think the answer. Correct me if I'm wrong, Wayne, but I think the answer is not princess unicorns in the office. I think that that's, like, maybe not the answer.

[Rainn Wilson]

I was actually gonna say that it is exactly the answer.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Because if everyone just gave each other princess unicorns, the world knows princess unicorn.

[Rainn Wilson]

Dolls is for anyone. You know, office fan, unicorn fan, princess fan, toy fan. It scratches every itch. For those who don't know. An episode of the Office in which Dwight is buying up all the princess unicorn dolls because they're the of that year. And it's the catchphrase is, my horn can touch the sky. And it's a unicorn girl with a big horn. I think you can actually buy princess unicorns out there. I think they market them, but I think it's a great episode and a great stocking stuffer. You know, one thing that drives me crazy, Laurie, is, like, the pressure to bring something over when you go to visit someone or to have dinner with them. Like, you've got to bring a bottle of wine or flowers, maybe chocolates, but. Or something from your garden or a little plant. Right? But those are. And, like, why do we do that? We don't have to do that. I don't like it when people show up like, here's wine. I don't drink. Here's some chocolates. I'm trying to lose weight. You know, here's some flowers. Great. They'll be alive for four days, and then I got to throw them out and dump out the stinky water. Like, why do we keep that? It's.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Well, this. I know you don't go through this, but this is, like, on extreme overdrive in the holidays, right? Families try to one up each other, and they're really worried about that. And so, yeah, I mean, given that you experience it in the context of the going over the folks houses for the gifts. Like how do you deal with it? I mean, one of the strategies I like to tell people about is to try to get back to the best kinds of gifts, which are your presence, maybe a fun experience, curiously asking someone deep questions about their lives. Those are the things that are gonna make them feel much better than, you know, a pair of socks or, you know, a new gadget or something like that. So getting back to the, you know, the reason behind the season, as cheesy.

[Rainn Wilson]

As it sounds, the reason behind the season. I love that. Yeah, I, I think a framed photograph is always good. And you can get a, maybe even a photograph they sent you throughout the year or something like that. Get it? Cause a lot of people, you know, we have these libraries of like 15,000 photogr in our photo library that we only occasionally pop up in memories. People rarely stop to get them kind of printed out and put on their shelves. So I'm just, just bonus, I'm not really dealing with the psychology behind it, but bonus, a photograph is always a great stocking stuffer.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And the beauty is, I think relative to other gifts, relative to like, you know, I don't know, an iPhone or a trip to Europe or something, it's actually pretty cheap.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, pretty cheap.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And that gets to a different thing that comes up in the holiday season, which is the stress of financ finances. Partly about gifts, but partly about, you know, having the best holiday presentation, how much food you buy and all this stuff. Traveling to visit family members. This can be a time when people are feeling like they just don't have enough. Any advice for kind of that crunch feeling where you're like, I just feel like I don't have enough money right now.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, I mean, I think that if you have to cancel, I think that that's fine to take care of your finances. And I, I just think on the family's part, we have to always be very cognizant of like, you know, what percentage of someone's salary or savings are they doing? Because flying has gotten way more expensive, by the way. I don't know if you've noticed it, but used to kind of be able to fly anywhere for like, oh, 200, 400, 600 bucks. You kind of get anywhere. Now it's like double, triple that. It's, it's a, it's a big investment. So we have to just be very sensitive to where people are financially. Yeah. But I don't know, what do you think what do you tell folks when they're struggling with their balancing commitments and obligations and they want to be a part of a family, but you may not be able to afford it, and maybe that brings low self esteem because you feel like I should have more money to be able to spend $3,000 to travel my family for a Christmas trip.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah. Well, I think this gets back to figuring out what things are really about and maybe something I know you talk a lot about in Soul Boom, which is like coming up with your own rituals.

[Sponsor Narrator (Bumble/Chase)]

Right?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

We had the rituals that we're supposed to do. You know, we fly to the family and we have all these presents or whatever it is, but we can get creative with the rituals if we figure out the value that's under it. Like, the value is that we're spending some time together. Right. You know, maybe that means we get together over zoom and we play some, like, you know, goofy games. We go back to like old Covid days, like connecting. That way if you can't fly out. Or we do no presents. You know, maybe all the presents are just crafts or something we make for each other, or it's photos that we print out, drawings that we give each other, write poems for each other. It sounds cheesy, but really what we want to be doing is showing our togetherness and connection. And, you know, the latest gadget isn't really going to do that.

[Rainn Wilson]

Well said. Yeah, I love that.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

All right, here's. We had lots of questions on gift giving. I know this is not your domain of expertise, and so maybe I'll have. I'll have you ask me the question.

[Rainn Wilson]

Okay, let's do it.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

I like this one because it really feels a little bit out of an Office Christmas special. Like, maybe it actually happened on the Office. But you can. Yeah, you can tell me. Okay, here it is.

[Rainn Wilson]

This is from an anonymous viewer. I once gave an office mate a foot massager the very same gift she had given me the year before, which I had forgot. Then I had to make up something about how I knew she liked it so much that I got her one, too. Very embarrassing. Taught me not to re gift. That sounds like an episode of the Office right there. That is something. Absolutely. So many characters. Dwight, Andy, Michael could re gift be like, I got you that last year. Like, oh, no, no. I knew you liked it, so I got you a new one. But I'm a huge fan of re gifting. In fact, I talked about people coming over, like, they'll give, like, little things or chocolates or sometimes it's like Coffee. And we have this secret stash of like the stuff we've been given and we're going to take that off. I have a little baggie, a beautiful little baggie with some gourmet coffee beans in it that someone gave. And I can't wait to go over to someone's house. I'm just going to grab it off the shelf and be like, I got you some coffee. So I'm a big fan of the re gifting. But yes.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

You think there's nothing wrong with this? Maybe write down on a little post it note who gave you the coffees? You don't give it directly back to that person when you find it in the RE gift closet.

[Rainn Wilson]

I like to live dangerously.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Go for it.

[Rainn Wilson]

I live on the edge. I may give it back to the exact same person who gave it to me. That's how I roll. But yeah, I think re gifting is awesome.

[Sponsor Narrator (Bumble/Chase)]

Okay.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

All right, well, we'll leave that one in there. I think maybe a piece of advice for this particular person is a little bit of self compassion. We all give gifts that bomb sometimes. I have occasionally given a gift to someone that I gave them the year before. Not regift gifted, but just like literally the same gift because I didn't have a good idea of what to get them. And so that's a time to take a deep breath and say, nobody's perfect. Everybody gives crappy gifts sometimes. It's okay.

[Rainn Wilson]

It's the thought that counts.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

The thought that counts. Which is a nice transition to how we can have thoughts that don't feel so overwhelmed during the holiday season. Next holiday woe that we heard lots of folks bringing up is how we can prioritize, balance and rest in a tough holiday season. One anonymous listener on Instagram said that her holiday woe is that it's so hard to be merry with so much to do. How do we find ways to take stuff off our plates during the busy holiday season?

[Rainn Wilson]

Boy, that's great. I feel like this should have been an episode for the Office Ladies. I feel like Jenna and Angela would have, like, nailed these questions so much.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Well, we could do like, I could call them up and see. We'll do a second round and I'll do exactly the same questions with them with you.

[Rainn Wilson]

I love it. Or they'll do next year's Christmas episode. But yeah, you know my favorite analogy, it's used a lot and people have probably heard it, but it's like they say on the airlines, like when the, when the oxygen mask drops, like you put on your own oxygen mask first so that you can put it on your kids later and other people's. And that's kind of how life works. Like we have to take care of ourselves first so that we can be there for other people. And the purpose of that is so that we can be there for others and be of service to others. So it's super important to get enough rest, not overwhelm, you know, ask people for help again, that perfectionism and I would love to hear a little bit more about how perfectionism works. And it oftentimes takes us so far away from joy, just that that pressure we put on ourselves to exceed expectations, the. To get self esteem from what we do instead of who we are. Because I think a lot of that, like if you're, if you're really that busy that you can't be merry, you're doing Christmas wrong, something's wrong. If you're so busy, there's not time for joy. I'm sure that's not what Jesus and the saints wanted from us.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah, I think the key is that like we need to. Again, it gets back to this idea of vigilance, right? Like you kind of have to notice what's going on. And it gets back to this idea that negative emotions are telling us something really important. We were talking before about grief and sort of noticing our sadness. That means we need space and time to deal with it. I think an emotion we really need to notice and allow during the holiday season is overwhelm. Like, you know, when you're baking the cookies and you're slamming the sugar around, you're like, like that's telling you, oh, this is a signal. Like the tire button coming on in my car. This is a signal that my overwhelmed tire light coming on and I need a break. You know, I need to maybe do a little bit less. Less events, less stuff, take something off the plate. When we think about having a happier holiday, we often think what we could add. You know, we need more presents or we need more time or more Christmas carols or more whatever it is. We often don't think of what we can take away. But I feel like the solution to so many of our holiday woes is take something off our plate. For example, taking some work off our plate. This was something we heard a lot, which is that a lot of people have a hard time being merry in the holiday because they experience a lot of work stress. Yulia on Instagram says, hey, I saw your post about the holidays. Here's my woe. It's Hard for me to stop and settle into a relaxed rhythm without thinking about work. Any ways that you can fight workaholism in the holidays that you're settling in with the hot chocolate, but back of your mind is like, you have to edit that podcast, Rick. Or like there's those emails in your inbox. Who's going to answer them?

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, I just, I think that workaholism is something that has to be unpacked. So it often comes from kind of a most overused word of the decade trauma. But there oftentimes is a trauma component to workaholism of like, I'm only going to get love by accomplishing. And not only that, I've got to accomplish a lot, not just accomplish the regular amount. I've got to accomplish more than anyone else. And that is going to get to get me love. It's going to get me noticed, get me acceptance, get me embraced, get me complimented. And if that is the case, that's going to take a little work that's going to take years, not months to kind of undo about. It's kind of like, it's similar to like a deprivation mentality. There's so many people that grew up poor and they just feel like they need to earn in order to survive even though they've got plenty of money. But like a kind of a panic sets in. It's like the old stories about people that grew up in a, in an orphanage, but they, and they're in the living in a multi million dollar house later on in life, but they still hide cookies under the mattress. And this is a phenomenon, this actually does happen where there's a feeling of safety of having that cookie under the mattress. So yeah, workaholism, you know, a, a deprivation mindset. These are kind of cookie under the mattress moments and you've got to go back to the beginning of like, hey, where did this come from? And, and, and, and why? So sometimes it's hard in the holidays you just got a lot of, it's the end of the year, you got a lot of stuff due and it's, it's just how it shakes down. Being prepared, planned, say, here's going to be my work days. Here's the days. I'm especially with phones and emails. I took email off my phone.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Nice.

[Rainn Wilson]

Because I feel like, you know, I could check my email three times a day from my computer. I don't need to be checking my email, Lori, 20 times a day. And getting back to people, I always feel this compunction. I gotta get Back to them right away.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

The itchiness, the itchiness. Yep, yep.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, yeah. It's like I can slow it down. 5pm I'll get on, I'll respond to three or four emails and then move on. But you know, I've got to unpack this workaholism, see where it comes from and recalibrate to feel like I am enough. I'm going to have enough self worth. I don't need to accomplish so much and be so perfect in order to get love.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah, this is great because there's two pieces of advice in there. One kind of local for the holidays and one broader local is do little silly hacks to get the work out of your holiday celebration. So if that means just deleting your email app just for, you know, one week in December while you're home with the family, great. And then it'll make it a little bit harder. Give yourself a little bit of friction to go to the normal itchy finger, check your email or jump into work. That's the kind of local.

[Rainn Wilson]

And let me, let me say part two of local one. Another thing that really works because I am a phone addict. Okay, Straight up. Phone on a shelf. Elf on a shelf.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Phone on a shelf. Yes.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, for your holidays. Here, you heard it here. Phone on a shelf, folks. Phone on a shelf. Have your phone, don't worry, just put it up on the shelf, have it not in your pocket, interact with people. You feel that itch, just go over to the shelf. You can check it real quick. If you want to take a photo, go get it, take the photo, put it back. But this will reduce. I don't know what the data is, but for me, when I do something like that, I would say I'm interacting with my phone 10 times less, but I'm not missing out on anything.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah. This is the sad thing about human psychology is how easy it is to put in a little bit of friction. It's not like you put your phone in Antarctica, it's just on a shelf.

[Rainn Wilson]

Or a safe or something.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Or a safe. You have to crack it. No, it's just on a shelf. But just not being in your pocket, in your hand, right next to you on the dinner table. It just makes it a little bit trickier to go for it. And yeah, you'll just use it a little bit less. So phone on a shelf. Hashtag phone on a shelf. 2025.

[Rainn Wilson]

There you go. Hashtag, phone on a shelf. My wife and I used to host these like kind of youth events when my son was a teenager and preteen and we would always have a basket and all the phones go in the basket. And because a bunch of 15 year olds doing activities or playing games or what have you is so much better when they're not just on the phone documenting everything, looking all the time. And maybe families can do that. Can you have over the holidays, you find a great deal more connection and mental health by putting phones in a basket or kind of say, hey, for this dinner, I've got a basket, everyone, let's put your phones. What do you think?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And you could decorate the basket. It could have little pieces of holly or like, you know, menorah symbols or whatever your own faith tradition is to put the phones in a basket or.

[Rainn Wilson]

Characters from like One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest because it has to do with mental health. So, you know, deranged human beings and say, we're not going to end up like these people, we're going to put our phone in a basket. But that might be something you want to communicate ahead of time to say, hey, for our Christmas dinner, I have this idea. What if we put our phones away and not just in our pockets, but away. We got off track here a little bit. But there was something else you were gonna bring up.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Oh, but yes, but there was the meta point, which I love, which is workaholism. You're not gonna solve it between, you know, December 24th and December 26th. It's a bigger issue that you need to process some trauma and so on. And I think this is a broader point for everything we're talking about here. Like, some of our families have some deep seated stuff. Some of us are going through some grief that's really hard. Some of us are navigating lots of perfectionism beyond just the holiday dinner. Take a breath. You don't have to solve everything over the holidays. But noticing those moments of frustration, noticing the pain points during the holidays gives you a nice checklist of things that you can pay attention to in the new year when you get a little bit of a breath later. So it's kind of, you know, if your tire light comes on, you don't necessarily have to immediately screech off the road and deal with your tire light then. But you kind of take some time to put it in the queue to deal with later. I think when these holiday wokes come up, it's often a great signal to us that like, hey, this is something I might need to pay attention to down the line.

[Rainn Wilson]

You make a great point here, which I think encompasses all of the questions we've been talking about, which is like, what needs to be handled over the holidays and what needs to be handled over the 11 months that. Or 10 months that aren't the holidays.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yes, yes.

[Rainn Wilson]

Whereas, like, wow, I am a perfectionist or wow, I'm a workaholic or, or wow, I feel lonely when I'm in groups or, you know, I feel a pressure to have the perfect gift or whatever it is. There's stuff to be worked on throughout the year so that you're better prepared for the holidays. And then there is stuff to kind of like, like you say quick fixes and hacks and little things you could do to make your holidays better. But there may be, you know, some a real tough conversation you have with yourself, with your therapist about, hey, I want to, I want to work on X, Y and Z so that I can go into the holidays next year with more joy and more freedom. You know, big picture.

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[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Mission. We now get to our last set of holiday challenges that we all need to do better about. And this is why I'm especially excited to have you on the show because our last holiday challenge is ways that we can create more meaning and joy. And I think you, of all the people I know have done, have had some of those, the best insights into what we can do to deal with this crisis of spiritual meaning that we have all the time. But I think this comes out a lot during the holiday season. I know Soul Boom talks a lot about what we can do to fix our spiritual crisis. Any soulful ideas, rituals, strategies we can use to feel a little bit more spiritually connected during the holiday.

[Rainn Wilson]

Season. A lot of people equate spirituality with religion for a very good reason. There's a big overlap between spirituality and religion in the Venn diagram. A lot of people view it as kind of synonymous with faith, synonymous with, let's say, church on Sunday or something like that. So the first thing to do is kind of separate spirituality from faith or religion or religious practice or the religion you grew up in. Because a lot of times what the holidays can do is that can reignite a kind of a religious trauma or that maybe you underwent. Perhaps you were forced to go to church seven days a week, or you were forced to be an altar boy or you were pressured in certain ways that you find very uncomfortable and triggering later on in life. And so a lot of people really resistant to anything having to do with spirituality because of certain religious trauma. So that's very real. But I think putting the rituals of whatever faith denomination you're involved in aside, what is spirituality? Well, it's a recognition that we are something more than the material that, whether whatever you want to call it, soul, heart, spirit, essence, life force, that there's something in us, about us, in our consciousness that is more than just an animal with a big brain and a meat suit. At least that's how I view it. And people who walk a spiritual path like to view it. So there's certain things that go hand in hand with this concept that we are spiritual beings having a human experience for 80, 90 years on the planet. And it's connecting with love. It's seeking greater humility, it's service to others. It's increasing our compassion to see kind of universal, divine qualities in people. So all of these kind of spiritual ideas can be brought out at family gatherings over the holidays and help give our lives meaning and most importantly, just help increase connection. Because we all know that it's through connection that we find the greatest joy and happiness. So these tools, compassion, service, humility, love, can give our lives meaning and can also give us joy and.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Happiness. And I think there's so much room to bring those in. More during the holiday season, even for maybe some of the not so great parts of the holiday season. You know, we talked a little bit about grief, thinking about loved ones that have passed and so on. I think these are moments for developing little rituals where you can connect with them during these tough times in the holiday season. The holidays are all about nostalgia, where you think back to your past and have these moments of, like, man, it's been 10 years since we've been having Nana's lasagna. And that can kind of give you a sense of awe about the time passing and so on. So it's like these rituals are open for us in the holiday season, not just going to some, you know, like, religious service, but really developing your own tiny moments. And this is something I know you've talked about a lot in Soul Boom, too, that it's often not like the big things. It's like the tiny moments of wonder and connection that seem to matter a lot. Any recommendations for noticing and finding the tiny things that matter during the.

[Rainn Wilson]

Holidays? Well, something you talk about a lot is.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Gratitude. Ooh, love, gratitude. Love me some.

[Rainn Wilson]

Gratitude. It's a superpower. So holiday gatherings can. When you feel overwhelmed, like, oh, Aunt Connie's wearing that perfume again, and Uncle Ronnie won't shut up, and Aunt Nana's chewing with her mouth open, and so. And so's being passive aggressive, like, help shift your mindset to one of gratitude. Like, what? What are you grateful for? So everyone's healthy that we all get to be together, that there's great kindness here, that I'm grateful for the childhood that, you know, my parents help give me. And we can do that internally. You can do that with a list. It's really. It's also, as you know, more helpful to share that gratitude with someone. Yes, you could do it by text, but it's even better over the phone or in person to share. Gratitude takes it to the next level. And maybe this is something to bring into instead of. You talked about spiritual practices, little things like instead of grace or in addition to grace, go around the table. And one thing you're grateful for, it's an easy icebreaker. It connects people, it opens their hearts. It shifts things away from politics and division and less than and stress. There's so many different ways to harness the power of gratitude for these kind of.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Events. Yeah. And another thing we know about gratitude is that it can be a virtuous cycle. Right. You know, you say one thing you're grateful for about your aunt at the dinner table. You know, I always love your cookies. You know, it makes me grateful every year when they come. But then that boosts her ability to notice the good stuff in life because kind of shifts her negativity bias ever so slightly towards the positive. Then she sees it better. And so you can develop these spirals during your holiday get together, where if you seed some gratitude early on, it makes it easier for other people to find gratitude and joy later. The last thing I wanted to end with, which in theory should be part of the holiday season, is our sense of awe and wonder. So often during the holiday season, I think we want to get certain positive emotions. We want to eat delicious stuff and feel good that way, or we want to get a good gift or have surprise. And I think one positive emotion that's really available to us that we forget is the power of wonder during the season. Any advice? Advice for how to get in a little bit more wonder during the.

[Rainn Wilson]

Holidays? Yeah, I just got to meet.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Dacher. Dacher.

[Rainn Wilson]

Keltner. Dacher Keltner, who wrote the wonderful book called Awe and the number of health benefits and psychological benefits to feeling awe and wonder are legion. And it usually and can start in nature. And it can again be another precious point of unity between people who, feeling like, politically divided or overwhelmed or what have you, you know, noticing a hummingbird or a tree or, you know, or growth or the moon or the stars, it's a powerful emotion and it actually increases your health. And just like gratitude and by the way gratitude is something you can just express. You can have a secret agenda to express gratitude. You can be like, hey, Aunt Connie, I'm grateful. Every year you make your brownies and you bring them and they're just so delicious. I'm really grateful for you bringing your brownies each year. It could just be that simple. Can change someone's whole day. And awe and wonder go hand in hand with curiosity. And expressing those can have the same.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Effect. I love your idea to get a little bit more nature in. I feel like I do this a little bit when I'm off in the Midwest for the holidays, too. Just take a little walk outside and look at the stars. Often very cold. So, you know, bring your hat and your mittens and all the things. But just like these tiny moments of experiencing nature, even in the midst of a busy, busy day can really slow you down and give you that sense of awe and wonder. Well, Rayne, thank you so much for wondering about the holidays with me. I don't know if we've solved everybody's holiday woes, but I think everybody's gonna.

[Rainn Wilson]

Go. I think we did. I think we solved everybody's holidays.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Woes. A happier holiday to all and to all, good night. Is that the saying? I forget something like.

[Rainn Wilson]

That. And to all the Good podcast, Dr. Laurie Santos and the Happiness Team. It's such a pleasure to see you again and speak with you and what a wonderful service you're providing, some holiday inspiration and guidance. It's one of the most stressful times of the.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Year. I hope my conversation with Rainn Wilson shared at least one piece of advice that will help you have a happier and more restful holiday season. That's all from the happiness lab for 2025, but not to worry, because.

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2026 is just around the corner and.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

We'Ll have some advice for making your new year as happy as possible. If you've been feeling stuck lately, you're in luck because this January will be back with a whole series on ideas for getting unstuck and moving forward in 2026. That's all next year on the Happiness lab with me, Dr. Laurie Sant. Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first, There the last one. Enjoy a coffee. Coca Cola for a pause that.

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[Dr. Laurie Santos]

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[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Liberty. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed.