← The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos
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- [00:00]
Dr. Laurie Santos
This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human.
- [00:04]
Podcast Host/Narrator
The Chase Inc. Business Premier Card is a pay in full card with flexibility made for business owners who make things happen. Earn a total of 2.5% cash back on every purchase of $5,000 or more, plus earn unlimited 2% cash back on every other purchase, giving you unlimited earn potential to invest cash back into your business. Inc. Business Premier is part of a suite of credit cards from Chase for Business designed to meet your needs every step of the way. Learn more@chase.com businesscard Chase for Business make more of what's Yours Accounts subject to credit approval restrictions and limitations apply. Cards are issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC hey Happiness Lab listeners. Dr. Laurie Santos here. As many of you know, I'm a college professor. I see the way that my students brighten up when I when they're engaged in new experiences that allow them to connect with one another. But social connection isn't just for college students. And that's where AARP comes in. AARP offers fun events that focus on making connections to ultimately help your happiness live as long as you do. Think concerts, volunteer opportunities, group workouts, and more to keep you active, involved and connected. And the sooner you join the fun, the more experiences you'll have in your community. The younger you are, the more you need AARP. Learn more at aarp.org local this is Danielle Robay from Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. You know the magic of finding a book you can't put down, right? Well, TikTok takes that feeling to the next level.
- [01:37]
Advertisement Voice
On TikTok, readers are discovering their favorite.
- [01:40]
Podcast Host/Narrator
Genres, sharing quotes that move them, and celebrating the characters they can't stop thinking about. With millions of voices in the community, it feels warm and welcoming. Every day, people are finding books that change the way they see the world, and even shaping the next big trends in publishing. Pushkin. Hello and welcome to a special edition of the Happiness Lab podcast. I hope all my listeners who celebrate had a happy Thanksgiving, but the day I really look forward to each November is the Tuesday after Thanksgiving. Forget Black Friday and Cyber Monday. My holiday of choice is Giving Tuesday. Giving Tuesday is the global holiday of charitable giving that falls right in the midst of our shopping frenzy. A day that's not about commerce, but compassion. Here at the Happiness Lab, we tend to make a big deal out of Giving Tuesday. Every year, we share a special episode that explores why doing good for others is super good for our own happiness. We also like to give our listeners a chance to team up and donate to a charitable cause that really does good in the world. For the past few years, that charity has been GiveDirectly, a non profit that takes your cash and gives it directly to people in extreme poverty to spend as they see fit. But this year we are going even bigger. We're bringing together the fans of some of my favorite podcasts to raise even more money to fight poverty. Think 10% happier with Dan Harris, On Purpose with Jay Shetty, Revisionist History, Hidden Brain, how to Be a Better Human and dozens more. The campaign even has its own podsfightpoverty Pods. Fight Poverty is trying to raise a million dollars this year. Enough money to lift several villages in Rwanda out of extreme poverty. If you want to help, head to GiveDirectly.org HappinessLab to donate what you can. That's GiveDirectly.org HappinessLab. If you're a fan of this show, you've probably already heard about the great things GiveDirectly can do with a small donation from a listener like you. Take the great work we did earlier this year in collaboration with author and YouTube star John Green. John and I asked you to partner up with GiveDirectly to tackle the deadly disease tuberculosis.
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Tim Harford
Tuberculosis is an airborne disease that usually affects the lungs. If left untreated, tuberculosis usually does result in death. Fortunately, since the 1950s we've had a cure for tuberculosis. So it's a bacterial infection, so the cure is antibiotics given every day over four to six months.
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Podcast Host/Narrator
The problem is that many people with TB live in parts of the world where they can't afford these life saving drugs. So John and I asked our listeners to help out with lots of small donations of five or ten bucks. We raised over $100,000 to fight this disease. That's incredible, right? But what's even more incredible are the stories we heard about what this money did for people living with the disease. Take one recipient, Margaret, a 30 year old TB patient living in Malawi. Margaret's TB could have easily been cured with a simple antibiotic. But lacking the resources to get treatment, she eventually got sicker and sicker. That is until she received the cash donation we provided through GiveDirectly. With that small amount of money, she was able to pay for the bicycle taxi she needed to travel to a far off clinic where she was able to finally start her drug treatment. I was overjoyed when I received the cash transfer Margaret wrote in her thank you letter to our listeners. It felt like my life had been given a second chance. I have hope again. Months later, I still think back to Margaret's story whenever I'm having a crappy day, taking a moment to remember what the five or ten bucks we collectively shared did, not just for Margaret, but for hundreds of other people who were struggling. That feels amazing. Probably more amazing than any material gift I'll be getting this holiday season. That good feeling is what the rest of this episode is about. With the help of some amazing fellow podcasters, I'm going to explore the enormous psychological power of giving and receiving. We'll see how small acts of kindness, a spare bit of cash, or a tiny gesture of care can create huge ripples in a person's life. I want these stories to serve as a reminder for something our lying minds often forget that a great way to treat ourselves is to do a small bit of good for somebody else.
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Dr. Laurie Santos
To kick off these stories of how.
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Podcast Host/Narrator
Doing good can make us feel good, let's look at how receiving an act of kindness can change us. And we'll do that with my first esteemed podcast host Guest hi, my name's.
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Tim Harford
Tim Harford and I am the host of Cautionary Tales.
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Podcast Host/Narrator
Tim is a respected journalist and economist, but his story of being the recipient of kindness goes back to a time before he found fame working for the BBC or hosting Cautionary Tales.
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Tim Harford
This story took place nearly a quarter of a century ago. I was visiting a friend in Cameroon, which is in West Africa, very poor part of the world. I was in my mid-20s and I was on edge because, you know, Cameroon was at the time rated as one of the most corrupt countries in the world. And corrupt or not, people there were often really desperate. As a tourist, you feel like you're a target. And so I was always on the lookout. I just had this sort of suspicion. I went around my travels around Cameroon. I had a great time, was treated wonderfully by everybody I met. But I never lost that feeling of you need to be careful. Then one day I was standing by the roadside in a smallish town called Bamenda with a couple of Western friends, and I think we were waiting for a bus, just bought some egg and chees tips. We're having a good time and we've just walked across country several miles on this dust road, and as we're waiting, a couple of guys zoom up behind us on a motorbike. Two guys on one motorbike. I turn around, expecting some threat, and they stop right in front of me. And one of them just hands me something and I look down at it. What is this? And it's a Passport. In fact, it's my passport. I mean, I'm completely bewildered. Why is this guy giving me my own passport? And of course I realized what's happened is the passport was in my back pocket and I've sat down by the roadside miles back and the passport must have fallen out. And these guys have driven along this road on the motorbike, they've spotted a British passport and they have gone all the way down the road looking for the first guy they see who looks British, which is me. They've even got my photo with my passport. And the amazing thing was they handed it over and then they just drove off. They didn't sort of stand around waiting for a tip or reward or even really a thanks. It was just, there you go, thought you might need this. And off they went. And I realized that this suspicion with which I'd been viewing everybody had been so much the opposite of how these guys had actually behaved. I mean, I would have been even more grateful if I'd had a moment to realise I even had a problem. Because if I had been stuck in Cameroon without my passport, that's a big problem that's going to cause me a lot of headaches. But they had solved the problem before I even realized they'd solved the problem. They had completely defied my rather uncharitable expectations of the people of Cameroon and they'd driven off into the sunset without even waiting for a thank you.
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Dr. Laurie Santos
It also seems like they did a lot of work. It sounds like they were chasing you as you're walking around all through the day to try to find you too.
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Tim Harford
Probably they came a couple of miles on the motorbike. I mean it was probably 10 or 15 minutes maybe. I don't, I don't know at all really how much work they did, but all I know is that they did it. And they could easily have taken that passport and thought, well, maybe we can turn this into cash somehow. Or even just maybe we can try and get a tip out of this guy.
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Dr. Laurie Santos
Or just left it on the ground like, oh, well, you know, I don't know this guy.
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Tim Harford
Yeah, yeah, there's someone else's problem. Yeah. Just ignored it. But they didn't.
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Dr. Laurie Santos
I mean, I love that story, but it also points out how like so many of our societies are probably much more high trust societies than we assume. Like so many people are out there doing better things than we think. But I think we have minds that assume people are kind of mistrusting. I actually, unfortunately, Tim, I actually blame the economists on this a Little bit. Because I feel like at least.
- [10:15]
Tim Harford
Oh, fine, yeah, sure, we kick the economists.
- [10:17]
Dr. Laurie Santos
I mean, at least the standard economists have been telling us for a long time that, you know, we are home economicists. We are these selfish beings who are going to go out, you know, so maybe the folks who returned your passport would do it if they thought they could get some cash off you, or they, you know, maybe they get some huge reputational benefits. Someone saw them do it, and, you know, now they kind of like praising them and so on, but they wouldn't just do it just for the good of doing it.
- [10:39]
Tim Harford
Well, I mean, let me push back a little bit. Let me push back a little bit and defend my fellow economists. So the classic economic model, all it says is that people have consistent preferences, and it's kind of convenient to assume that those preferences are about consumption. Like you're trying to spend as little money as possible and get as much stuff as possible for that money. It doesn't have to be. You could. And I've seen some beautiful economic models written where actually my pleasure is completely dependent on your pleasure, Laurie. I can just see the glow in your eyes. I know how happy you are, and the happier you are, the happier that makes me. There's nothing in conventional economics that makes that impossible. We tend not to make that assumption because it's kind of. Why would you. And so we simplify and we talk about the purchase of goods and services, and we ignore the altruistic bit. There's nothing in classical economics that says people can't be altruistic. We, I think, just haven't paid enough attention to that possibility. And because we don't pay attention to the possibility, we just set it to one side.
- [11:40]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Are you surprised that we don't think of kind actions as. As valuable, as impactful as they often are?
- [11:46]
Tim Harford
If I can just be a kind of amateur evolutionary psychologist for a moment, I suppose you might naturally think that we had evolved to be a little bit more suspicious of people, particularly of strangers, because, you know, it's bad to have someone take advant. But actually, of course, we evolved to be social beings. And maybe we shouldn't be so surprised that people often behave kindly to each other. I mean, I am aware of some research in psychology. You'll know this kind of worked better than me, Laurie. But we often fail to generalize. We think, oh, if I found a wallet with a driving license in it, then I'd contact the owner or I'd hand it into the police station. Yeah, of course, that's what I'D do. But then you ask people, you ask if other people would do that, and we think, oh, no, other people wouldn't do that. And it's not like we think we're better than other people. It's just that the two questions don't even overlap. It's almost as though we've got a different circuit in our brain reflecting on how we would behave or reflecting on how we think somebody else will behave.
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Podcast Host/Narrator
And this is a challenge for the.
- [12:52]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Organization that we've been working with, give directly. Their philosophy is like, we're just going to give people money directly and let them do with it what they want. That people in need have the best ideas about how to spend their money to make. Make their situation better. But a lot of the folks who are thinking about giving to give directly often have the following problem, which is like, are people really going to know what to do with the money? Are they going to do something bad? Are they going to buy something frivolous or something like that? It seems like people just don't trust people to make the best decisions. And I feel like this is part of the same kind of bias we have as undercover economists. How do you think of this bias and what are we doing wrong?
- [13:27]
Tim Harford
Give the economists some credit. We definitely trust people to make decisions in their own interests. There are cases where you might go, look, the money's only useful if it's coordinated. So actually, what this village really needs is a bridge or a well. But in general, people are going to be good stewards of their own money and they're going to be good judges of how to spend that money because there's so much they know about their situation, about the context, and about their own ambitions that nobody else can know. And if you give them money, then you're putting them in the best possible position to take advantage of their own context and to fulfill their own ambitions. We're sort of trained to believe that if somebody really needs a handout, that must be because they lack judgment, that they have made many poor decisions in the past, otherwise they wouldn't need a handout. But in somewhere like Cameroon, that's definitely not true. There are lots and lots of people in really difficult situations in many countries, countries in the world, and absolutely not because of any bad decisions that they themselves have made. So I think we need to shake off this idea that if someone need. If someone needs a handout, then by definition, they can't be trusted with the handout. We've got to kind of. We've got to break out of that, because that's just nonsense.
- [14:47]
Podcast Host/Narrator
So even an economist says that giving is good for us. If you want to put that advice into effect right away, then consider giving to the Pods Fight Poverty campaign. Just go to GiveDirectly.org HappinessLab the next podcaster to share a story on the power of giving is an old friend of the show.
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J.R. Martinez
First of all, it's great to see you again.
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Dr. Laurie Santos
It's been a minute.
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J.R. Martinez
It has, yeah.
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Podcast Host/Narrator
Army veteran J.R. martinez was badly wounded in Iraq when the Humvee he was driving hit a roadside bomb. Forced to end his military service, JR Entered a dark chapter. But he eventually fought back, building a series of new careers, first as a TV actor, then as a Dancing with the Stars champion, and finally as the host of the inspiring podcast Medal of Honor. JR Is a big fan of giving back. He's done an incredible amount of service.
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Dr. Laurie Santos
For the veteran community.
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Podcast Host/Narrator
But today he asked to share a story not of giving, but of receiving, Specifically of receiving a life changing gift that he didn't even know he needed.
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J.R. Martinez
In 2009, I was asked to do the auction for a veterans golf outing. And it was going to benefit a nonprofit set up to help, you know, service members and their families. And immediately I was like, of course, now I'm not an auctioneer, but sure, I'll get up there and, you know, try to do my best. And I was like, well, what are some of the auction items? And they said, this, this, this, this, and a puppy. And so they bring out the puppy. He's 8 weeks old, black lab. And I hold him and I feel this, like, connection. I'm financially going through my budget as a, you know, 27 year old of, like, how, how much could I bid on this puppy? The max was like, I could probably do like 600 bucks. Like, that's the absolute max. So we get there and immediately, like, that number has surpassed, like, it. We're not at 600. That number has moved on. And so I'm holding the next auction item, this quilt, and I'm ready to move it along. And a lady raises her hand that bidded on the dog and says, may I say something? So we're like, of course. So she comes up to the stage, she says, we love animals. We love dogs. We love this dog, we love this cause. But unfortunately we have, you know, pets at home, so there's no room for this sweet dog at our house. And she says, so we want to give them, give him to JR And I'm like, that quilt, Like, I'm Just like now using it to, like, wipe all the tears and the snot and everything. And I'm in shock. I was still going through my stages of, you know, like, I was mad and I was navigating a lot of emotional things, and they give him to me and I take him home. And Lori, I mean, he helped me heal and he was my, he was my companion and all these stages of life that I navigated, and I'm just forever, like, grateful. And every time I would see the couple that, that, that, that did that gesture for me, I mean, as you can imagine, I always felt forever indebted to them because of, you know, what they gave to me and the gift they gave to me. And when he passed, it was one of the hardest things that I've experienced in my life.
- [18:02]
Dr. Laurie Santos
What was his name?
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J.R. Martinez
Romeo. And I remember, like, I named him Warrior because I was like, well, it's for wounded war. You know, this is, you know, the mid-20s kid, you know, guy naming a dog, you know. And I was like, warrior? Yeah, you're a warrior. Then I was like, what am I going to call you for short War? And I was like, well, I don't know. I started noticing this pattern where people would see him and they would just, like, gravitate to him and. And I was like, ah, you're no warrior. You're a Romeo. And every time I would look at him, no matter what stage of life that I was in, his look just always reminded me to just be. Just to be present, just to be with him, just to be with the environment. Can't tell you how many times I would take him to the park and we would just sit at the park, just he and I.
- [18:50]
Dr. Laurie Santos
It also seemed like you didn't realize at that moment that you really needed this kind gift. But then when it came in your life, it really changed it.
- [18:57]
J.R. Martinez
I had no clue, I had absolutely no clue that this is what I needed. As much as I was sitting here budgeting, like, how much can I realistically afford to bid on this dog? I was then thinking about, my life is busy. I can't have a dog right now. Like, who's gonna watch the dog for me when I'm. When I have to travel? There were all these reasons why I also couldn't have one. And then the universe said, this is what you need, and gave it to me. And guess what? I figured it out.
- [19:23]
Dr. Laurie Santos
I mean, I don't know how much folks ended up spending on Romeo. It was clearly more than your 600 bucks that you're gonna spend. But you know, but my guess is whatever they spent, it actually wasn't as much as you wound up getting out of Romeo. Like the act of doing something nice for somebody has these like incredible returns. Like this huge return on investment that we just don' often realize.
- [19:41]
J.R. Martinez
100%. If Romeo was here today and someone offered 500 times more than what they spent, would I take it? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. There is no price that I can put on that gesture of what they did for me. That's the place we got to operate from. Do give, even if we never necessarily get to understand the full impact that it had.
- [20:06]
Podcast Host/Narrator
And if you want to follow JR's advice to do and to give, then here's the URL where you can donate to the Podsfight poverty campaign. It's GiveDirectly.org HappinessLab it's time for a quick break, but we'll return with the story of a world famous author who carries cash for strangers in need. And a scientist who's seen the firsthand benefits of an unexpectedly kind word. The Happiness Lab's special episode on the power of giving will return in a moment.
- [20:34]
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- [21:34]
Podcast Host/Narrator
Hey, Dr. Laurie Santos here. As many of you know, I'm a college professor and when I first started teaching at Yale, I wasn't sure how students would respond to a class on happiness. I mean, would they think it's cheesy or would they dismiss the topic as superficial? I couldn't possibly have known what a revolutionary kind of experiment I was about to be part of. Now, years after my class went viral and I can't imagine my life any other way without my students, my class or all the listeners out there that tune in every week. If I hadn't taken that first step, I wouldn't be here now sharing my journey and all the happiness Science with you My path to becoming a Happiness podcaster has taught me that we learn by engaging with each other. If you're searching for more meaningful human connections, that's where AARP comes in. The science shows that we could all use a little help leaning into making more human connections. And with AARP, there are tons of new experiences waiting for you. AARP can help you make sure that your happiness lives as long as you do. And the research shows that by engaging more with new friends, you'll be happier and healthier. AARP offers fun events that focus on making connections and boosting your happiness. Events like volunteer opportunities, skill building activities, local and virtual meetings, please. Plus there are plenty of opportunities to share what you know. You can make connections through all of their events. They even have a virtual community center. Learn more@aarp.org local and lean into the fact that AARP can help people make human connections through local events. That's why AARP offers these fun events to help your happiness live as long as you do. Think concerts, volunteer opportunities, group workouts and more to help keep you active, involved and connected. And the sooner you join the fun, the more experiences you'll have in your community. The younger you are, the more you need AARP. Learn more at aarp.org local that's aarp.org local when you own your own business, you own every decision. Now own the card that rewards you for it. The Chase Sapphire Reserve for Business Card brings the best Sapphire Reserve benefits to business owners who expect hard working rewards. Designed to meet the needs of business owners at scale, this Pay in Full card elevates your travel experience and offers premium benefits and value towards business services that will take your business to the next level. Sapphire Reserve for business provides over $2,500 in annual value. Fuel your business and maximize rewards with 8x points on all purchases through Chase Travel, 3x points on social media and search engine advertising, annual partnership credits and more. Make every journey more rewarding with a $300 annual travel credit and access to a network of airport lounges. Whether you're looking for pre flight productivity or time to rest and recharge, Chase Sapphire Reserved for business with over $2,500 in annual value, it's the card that gives back all you put in. Learn more@chase.com ReserveBusiness Chase for Business make more of what's Yours Accounts subject to credit approval. Restrictions and limitations apply. Cards are issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank, NA member FDIC. Welcome back to the Happiness Lab's special Giving Tuesday episode. In the spirit of my favorite charitable holiday, I'm chatting with my favorite podcasters about their personal stories of generosity. Our goal is to remind you that one of the quickest ways to feel happier yourself is to give a little happiness back to somebody else. Next up, we have Michael Lewis, best selling author of Moneyball and the Blind side and host of the award winning podcast against the Rules. Michael wanted to share a new strategy he's been using to make it as easy as possible for him to do good for people in need.
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Michael Lewis
I made a decision to always carry a bunch of $10 bills with me so that if I see anybody who asks me for money, I just automatically give them $10. People on the streets so I've started.
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Dr. Laurie Santos
Doing it and so how does it feel?
- [25:35]
Michael Lewis
So it is completely true that when you give something to someone else, you feel good.
- [25:41]
Tim Harford
Totally feels good.
- [25:42]
Michael Lewis
But years ago when I was working on the Blind side, the Christian family, the dad in the family said to me something in passing about giving that I've never been able to get out of my head. When I hit a little bump in my mind about giving, it's a touchstone for me. And it's if it doesn't hurt a little bit, you haven't given enough. I thought that was a cool idea. And so it's not a natural act just to hand money over people. It hurts a tiny bit. So that also is a reassuring feeling.
- [26:13]
Podcast Host/Narrator
I bet each of those $10 bills.
- [26:14]
Dr. Laurie Santos
That you gave away, the benefit that came to you was way more than 10 bucks that you would have blown on like two lattes or something silly.
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Michael Lewis
So this has only been going on for a couple months. So this only happened like five times. But I'm gonna try to make this a hab forever just because I think it will change my relationship to just people on the streets. I don't mean people who are homeless, I just mean everybody around you. Because especially if you're in a city, you kind of go through the world waiting for someone to ask you for something and you have all those defenses up. And so those defenses don't just operate against the people who are asking you for money, they operate against everything. They're the enemy of moving through the world in a good way, in an open way. So it opens up things a little bit.
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Katie Milkman
Yeah.
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Dr. Laurie Santos
I love this advice because it's so nicely ties to the type of Thing that we're doing with GiveDirectly. Right? Like their whole deal is that they just give these cash transfers no questions asked. And the act of doing that means you're not kind of thinking in ways where you're being mistrustful and kind of like analyzing people. Like, first of all, it's just like too much cognitive load of like, what is this money going to go to? Is it going to go to something good or whatever. But more than the cognitive load, you just wind up thinking all these bad theories about your fellow humans, right? Like, they're going to spend this on something terrible, they're going to use drugs or something like that. So just committing like, nope, I'm just going to give the money. I'm going to trust that other people have good intentions of what they're going to do with it. First of all, you get the benefit that you get from giving, but also beyond that, you don't have all this, like, yucky mistrust that comes with, like, wondering what somebody's going to do with the money. It just like, is a wonderful, like, cognitive load reducer and like negative social contagion reducer.
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Michael Lewis
Correct? All correct. So we'll see if I persist in this, but this has been a little giving wrinkle in my life.
- [27:58]
Podcast Host/Narrator
I hope Michael's tiny wrinkle grows into a big ridge. A subtle shift that turns into real positive change for Michael and for anyone feeling a little inspired by his new giving tactic. And if you're feeling newly inspired to make a difference, you're in luck because you can take part in our Pods Fight Poverty campaign. Right now, just head to GiveDirectly.org HappinessLab to give what you can. Next up is a story of kindness from one of my former Yale students, a fellow psychologist who is also the host of an award winning podcast. Plus is one of my dear friends.
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Dr. Maya Shankar
Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shankar and I'm the host of A Slight Change of Plans.
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Dr. Laurie Santos
And so, Maya, what's your story of unexpected benefits of kindness?
- [28:41]
Dr. Maya Shankar
My moment is actually one from elementary school, so.
- [28:45]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Well, we're going way back for this one.
- [28:46]
Dr. Maya Shankar
Yeah, we're going all the way back. Um, I was bullied a lot as a kid and.
- [28:51]
Podcast Host/Narrator
Wait, really? I'm surprised by this.
- [28:53]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Somehow I didn't know this about you.
- [28:55]
Dr. Maya Shankar
Oh, my gosh. Oh, my God. So many tears, so much anxiety.
- [28:58]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Wait, who was your worst bully? Mine was. I won't say her name. I'll say it was Jessica T. She was terrible.
- [29:04]
Dr. Maya Shankar
Jacqueline Kellen Lindsey. It was a trio and Carly, too. But these were girls in my neighborhood that weren't super nice to me. And it was really hard at the time. I just thought, oh, I'm a deeply flawed, broken person. With some hindsight, I realized, oh, how interesting. I was one of very, very few kids of color in my whole school. I wonder if maybe that played a role. But regardless of what contributed to the meanness and the cruelty, I spent my childhood feeling just really insecure and really, really anxious. And these bullies gave credence to my worst fears about myself.
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Dr. Laurie Santos
Was this, like, in the schoolyard on the bus? Like, where did this happen?
- [29:43]
Dr. Maya Shankar
Oh, my God. Cafeteria. So Carly one day was like, you're so ugly, it's painful for me to look at you, and then got up and went to another table. There was another episode in elementary school where the kids had decided in advance that they were gonna pretend I was invisible that day. So when I went to go drink from my milk carton, I lifted up. They were like, oh, there's a milk carton floating in the air. How funny. And now there's a fork in the air. Like, oh, my God. I'm like, I can't believe they're pretending. I literally don't exist.
- [30:10]
Dr. Laurie Santos
I wanna, like, jump through the zoom and hug you. But wait, how is this a story about kindness?
- [30:14]
Tim Harford
I don't.
- [30:14]
Dr. Laurie Santos
I just don't see where this is going.
- [30:15]
Dr. Maya Shankar
Okay, sorry, sorry. So I was bullied a lot. And there were a few kids that were so deeply kind to me and weren't just nice behind the scenes, but were advocates for me when it really mattered. So I remember there was this one girl in my neighborhood named Adrian, and we were on the school bus. The school bus was brutal because, like, a lot of the kids didn't want to sit next to me. So it was a whole thing. It's like, we'd rather sit five in a seat rather than sit next to Maya. You know, kids are terrible, right? So I remember some kids were saying some nasty things to me, and Adrienne stood up and was like, all of you guys just shut up. Maya is awesome. I just remember those words in little kid. Maya's brain were transformative. Like, I had a transcendent experience in that moment. And I just remember being so moved by the fact that she was willing to stand up and say these things in front of the people that I was really scared by, because I'm not exactly the type of person who would have fought back in those moments and, like, really stood my ground. Instead, I Thought, oh, I know. Let me try to kill them with kindness. Maybe that will win over the bully. And that is clearly a very losing strategy when it comes to engaging with bullies effectively. So Adrienne did this for me, and it really helped change the landscape for me. It's not like the bullies were suddenly nice, but I now felt like Adrienne was in my corner. And it changes your whole mentality when you feel like even one person is on your team. And I was fast forwarding decades to think about how this had affected me as a person. And actually, Laurie, it was a moment from my time at Yale when I was your undergrad student. There was a guy in my dorm room who was being bullied because he was suffering from depression and bipolar disorder. And it didn't fit with the kind of frat boy, machismo athlete vibe, I guess, that his social group entertained. And they were so cruel to him. They were so mean. And I remember being like, I'm gonna be Adrian for him, for Noah. And I stood up to those guys, and I was like, you guys suck. And Noah's amazing. And how dare you be so ignorant about mental illness and those struggles. I even remember at our reunion, I gave this guy so much. I don't know what a kosher word I can say on this podcast is, but it was not a fun exchange, I'll say, for this other guy, because I was like, how could you treat Noah like that? And I actually just got a text message from Noah a couple months ago saying, I remember in college when I was going through such a hard time, Maya, you were so on my side, and you were so nice to me, and it really touched my heart that I could pay it forward like that, because I remember having been on the receiving end of that. See, I told you, Laurie, it had a happy ending.
- [33:10]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Okay, that was good. I'm glad the happy ending came up. It wasn't just, like, Maya getting tortured on the bus. No. But I love this story because it shows. Like, Adrienne's probably not sitting there thinking about, like, how she helped this one person in elementary school, but you right now are thinking about how that helped.
- [33:24]
Podcast Host/Narrator
You to this day and a decade after that.
- [33:27]
Dr. Laurie Santos
It was also helping somebody else, like, in college. And so we forget not just, like, how long our kind events wind up helping the people that we do nice things for, but also how many times these turn into these cascades where more nice things happen over time.
- [33:43]
Dr. Maya Shankar
Absolutely. They have these beautiful spillover effects. Right. And there's this concept in psychology called moral elevation. And it's basically when you witness someone else's extraordinary actions. So it could be their kindness or their courage or their self sacrifice or their ability to forgive other people. Any character trait that you find really amazing and impressive, that can lead to this warm fuzzy feeling in your chest that makes you feel like, wow, humans are capable of extraordinary things. But importantly, when you experience moral elevation, it doesn't just feel good. It actually changes your brain. When you see someone challenge your understanding of the world and about what humans are capable of, it cracks open your own imagination about what you are capable of. And I love that insight because what it's done in my own life is it's made me a more keen observer. So when I'm walking in the coffee shop, I'll notice someone being extra nice to the barista or I'll notice that someone went out of their way to smile at me when I'm going on a walk. And these moments feel so good in the moment, but they also have these long lasting effects on our psychology and our view of others, and importantly, of ourselves and our potential, our capabilities as people. And so it's really enriched my life to see the world through a moral beauty lens.
- [35:00]
Dr. Laurie Santos
This is such a great example. I feel like, especially in winter, when everything's feeling so dark and so glum, that, like, they're just these examples of beauty and kindness out there that we can find. And that seeing them isn't just like witnessing something that's beautiful. It's also changing us too.
- [35:14]
Dr. Maya Shankar
Exactly. And yes, winter is dark, but also the world, like, we're in a really dark place right now. It's very hard to stay hopeful and positive. And I have just felt like reminding myself that actually humans are so good at their core because you can witness these beautiful acts every single day. And that's in my control, unlike so much else that's happening in the world, is a wonderful way of reclaiming my agency and allowing myself moments of happiness, moments of joy in everyday life against the backdrop of a lot of suffering in the world, you know, and so. So, yeah, I've just been grateful for the gift that we've gotten from science in the space of moral elevation.
- [35:53]
Podcast Host/Narrator
And if Maya's story has given you a moment of moral elevation, remember that you can choose to become an Adrian too. You can do that by joining me and dozens of other podcasters as part of the Pods Fight Poverty campaign. Why not donate five bucks right now by heading to GiveDirectly.org HappinessLab that's GiveDirectly.org it's time for a break, but when we return, I'll get to share my own story of the power of giving and how four words that I quickly scribbled nearly 20 years ago set a little girl on the path to becoming an aerospace engineer. The Happiness Lab will be right back.
- [36:34]
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- [37:28]
Podcast Host/Narrator
That's Dell.com deals Hey, Dr. Laurie Santos here. As many of you know, I'm a college professor, and when I first started teaching at Yale, I wasn't sure how students would respond to a class on happiness.
- [37:43]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Happiness.
- [37:44]
Podcast Host/Narrator
I mean, would they think it's cheesy or would they dismiss the topic as superficial? I couldn't possibly have known what a revolutionary kind of experiment I was about to be part of. Now, years after my class went viral, I can't imagine my life any other way without my students, my class, or all the listeners out there that tune in every week. If I hadn't taken that first step, I wouldn't be here now sharing my journey and all the happiness science with you. My palace. The Path to Becoming a Happiness Podcaster has taught me that we learn by engaging with each other. If you're searching for more meaningful human connections, that's where AARP comes in. The science shows that we could all use a little help leaning in to make more human connections. And with aarp, there are tons of new experiences waiting for you. AARP can help you make sure that your happiness lives as long as you do. And the research shows that by engaging more with new friends, you'll be happy to happier and healthier. AARP offers fun events that focus on making connections and boosting your happiness. Events like Volunteer opportunities, skill building, activities, local and virtual meetings. Plus there are plenty of opportunities to share what you know. You can make connections through all of their events. They even have a virtual community center. Learn more@aarp.org local and lean into the fact that AARP can help people make make human connections through local events. That's why AARP offers these fun events to help your happiness live as long as you do. Think concerts, volunteer opportunities, group workouts, and more to help keep you active, involved and connected. And the sooner you join the fun, the more experiences you'll have in your community. The younger you are, the more you need AARP. Learn more@aarp.org local that's aarp.org when you own your own business, you own every decision. Now own the card that rewards you for it. The Chase Sapphire Reserve for Business Card brings the best Sapphire Reserve benefits to business owners who expect hardworking rewards. Designed to meet the needs of business owners at scale, this Pay in Full card elevates your travel experience and offers premium benefits and value towards business services that will take your business to the next level. Sapphire Reserve for business provides over $2,500 in annual value. Fuel your business and maximize rewards with 8x points on all purchases through Chase Travel, 3x points on social media and search engine advertising, annual partnership credits and more. Make every journey more rewarding with a $300 annual travel credit and access to a network of airport lounges. Whether you're looking for pre flight productivity or time to rest and recharge. Chase Sapphire Reserved for business with over $2,500 in annual value, it's the card that gives back all you put in. Learn more@chase.com ReserveBusiness Chase for Business make more of what's yours Accounts subject to credit approval restrictions and limitations apply. Cards are issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC. Welcome back to the Happiness Lab special Giving Tuesday episode. Today we're exploring just how much we underestimate the psychological power of small acts of generosity. And the next story is one that really hits home for me because the person in this story doing all that underestimating of the power of giving was me.
- [41:08]
Avery Miller
So in 2008 I was six years old.
- [41:12]
Podcast Host/Narrator
This is Avery Miller, and I didn't.
- [41:15]
Avery Miller
Know too much, you know, about the world, I suppose. But I knew that I wanted to be an astronaut because I'd read books about them, I'd seen them on tv, and my parents were very encouraging of all of that. And my mom realized there was an event called World Science Festival.
- [41:30]
Podcast Host/Narrator
The World Science Festival is A multimedia science education organization that began as an annual event in New York City to make science fun and accessible to the general public. Think panels and talks, interactive exhibits and kid friendly games. Avery's mom thought her daughter would love it. So the Millers decided to take the four hour trek from their home in Boston to New York City.
- [41:52]
Avery Miller
So we went to the festival and there's a lot of really cool outside stuff and, you know, the typical kid activities, but my mom was like, you know, I think Avery would really love going to some talks, which an insane thing to think about a six year old, but that's my mom. So we went to quite a few talks, but I think they were mostly men, so not really role models.
- [42:14]
Podcast Host/Narrator
That's when Avery stumbled on a panel that would change her life forever. It was called Cool Jobs, where scientists shared the cool questions they explored and the fun places they got to work. There was a Disney imagineer, a forensics expert who used science to solve crimes, and an early career psychologist whose name you might recognize if you're a fan of the show.
- [42:35]
Tim Harford
She spends a lot of time thinking about how we think and how we.
- [42:39]
J.R. Martinez
Play and how we fall in love.
- [42:42]
Tim Harford
By hiking through the jungles of Puerto Rico watching monkeys. Please, a Warm welcome for Dr. Laurie Santos.
- [42:52]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Hello, everyone. Thanks for having me today. So I'm going to tell you a little bit about a job that I bet many of you are thinking about. And that's the kind of job that's involved with working with animals.
- [43:02]
Podcast Host/Narrator
So, fun fact. Long before I began studying happiness, I spent a lot of my early career trying to understand the human mind by studying the cognitive abilities of monkeys. Back in 2008, I was asked to.
- [43:14]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Talk about that primate work on the.
- [43:16]
Podcast Host/Narrator
Cool Jobs panel at the World Science Festival. The organizers of the panel assumed it would be of interest to college students thinking about their future careers. But what we didn't expect was to have so many little kids in the audience. Little kids who were apparently very impressed that there were jobs where you could hang out with monkeys. Little kids just like, Avery.
- [43:35]
Avery Miller
I was like, you get to be outside, you get to do science. And that was sort of a mind blowing moment of like, oh my God, there's someone like me who's doing all this really cool stuff. And my mom, again, being really cool was like, well, let's go talk to her.
- [43:50]
Podcast Host/Narrator
Avery's mom wasn't the only audience member to have the idea. As the New York Times would later report, quote, after the event, Dr. Santos was mobbed by a group of children curious about what she calls monkey magic tricks. I spent over an hour after that panel sitting on stage talking with kids about my work. And one of those kids was an eager little girl named Avery.
- [44:13]
Avery Miller
So I went up and I think I told you all about how I wanted to be an astronaut and how I wanted to go to mit, because, you know, growing up in Boston, if you want to do science, you want to go to mit. And we didn't have anything for you to sign except for the back of the ticket on the email my mom printed out. So you signed it. I have it here if you want to see it.
- [44:33]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Oh, my gosh. Can you hold it up?
- [44:35]
Avery Miller
Yeah.
- [44:35]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Oh, my gosh. With, like, a monkey drawing. That is amazing.
- [44:39]
Avery Miller
So I drew monkeys on it, as you can see, which I'm sure my mom told me not to, but you wrote, have fun at mit. Love, Laurie. And I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. A scientist thinks. I can be a scientist. We framed it, and then I put it on my desk, and then I guess I never moved it off my desk. I mean, like, I look at it all the time in high school. I'd sit there and do my homework. And so it's like, you know what this means? I can do it. You know, as much as I hated chemistry at the time, okay, I gotta get the chemistry done, because I'm gonna go to mit. So it was just this constant little reminder that, like, I could do that.
- [45:17]
Dr. Laurie Santos
I mean, it's so funny. I sign lots of things for lots of folks, and just the idea that they would keep them is really cool. But also just that it turned into an inspiration for you.
- [45:26]
Avery Miller
I failed a class, almost failed a class in the eighth grade, and it was science. And I was like, that means I can't do it. Because if everyone looks at you as the science kid and you're going around failing science classes, it's hard. So I looked at it, and I was like, you know what? Someone says that I can do it. I saw someone else do it. You know, there were a lot of people rooting me on, but I had this thing from such a young age. One person telling you you can do it when you didn't even know that was an option is perhaps more meaningful. So, yeah, it was a big deal to me then. It's still a big deal to me now. I had it on my desk all through college. All the dorms I lived in, I have it now that I live on my own. It's just always lived on my desk. It's always Just been there. I also have a Sally Ride picture though. So you're up there with her.
- [46:17]
Dr. Laurie Santos
That's amazing. It sounds like you wound up going to college. Did you end up going to MIT or what happened?
- [46:22]
Avery Miller
Yeah, so by senior year, I realized that I did not want to go to mit. MIT is great, but it wasn't the right fit. I ended up going to Purdue. I became an aerospace engineer.
- [46:34]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Wait, like mind boggling? Like, you became aerospace engineer? That's so cool.
- [46:39]
Podcast Host/Narrator
I reconnected with Avery and learned about her story when she sent me an email out of the blue thanking me for being such an inspiration to her. As she wrote in her letter, you took the time to speak to me, learn my name, and just made me feel like no matter what, I could do it. Thank you for being an inspiration in six year old me's life.
- [46:57]
Dr. Laurie Santos
I know that you carved the way.
- [46:59]
Podcast Host/Narrator
For this field to be one that women like me can thrive in. I mean, wow. I had no idea that scribbling those four little words nearly 20 years ago would have had such an impact on someone. I also didn't realize that those words would ripple into the next generation of scientists too.
- [47:18]
Avery Miller
I think one of the things that I learned and I really appreciated when I met you when I was young was that you didn't talk to me like I was a little kid. I never felt like someone was talking down to me, which I think in STEM we have a tendency to do when people don't understand stuff. I think it was Einstein, though I could be misquoting who said, if you can't explain it to a five year old, you don't understand it. It. There's something to be said for approaching someone on their level. That's how people can hold on and be like, wow, I really do want to learn more. It definitely makes me think about how I'm giving my time because like I mentor middle schoolers and I'm like, maybe one day one of these middle schoolers will reach out and, you know, same sort of thing of like, oh, you impacted me. So who knows? Look at you.
- [48:00]
Dr. Laurie Santos
The six year old has become an adult now.
- [48:03]
Podcast Host/Narrator
I know.
- [48:04]
Dr. Laurie Santos
I mean, one of the reasons this story is so compelling for me also just that like, I affected someone who's so cool and doing such cool stuff now is just amazing.
- [48:10]
Avery Miller
The fact that someone who speaks to John Green thinks I'm cool is possibly the coolest thing ever.
- [48:16]
Dr. Laurie Santos
I'm sure he would think you're cool too, but I mean, it's just like you just have these short interactions in life where you don't necessarily realize how much you're affecting people. And I think if you can have those interactions in a way that are, like, positive or encouraging, we just, like, don't know the ripple effect of the kind of thing that we can do to other people. And so it was just such a reminder of, like, oh, my gosh, I can have this, like, incredibly long standing, like, you know, 20 year, ish, positive effect. And I might not be realizing I could do that right now.
- [48:45]
Avery Miller
And also the fact that I can reconnect with you after 20 years and it still be something meaningful.
- [48:51]
Dr. Laurie Santos
I'm curious, was there a moment that you decided to reach back out? Like, was there, like, a catalyst of why you decided to reach out when you did?
- [48:58]
Avery Miller
I'm hoping to go back to school eventually. So I've been studying for exams, and sometimes you have just a day where you're looking at your exam book and you're like, there is no way that I can keep doing this. There's no way I can keep answering problems. And I looked at the note, which, again, sits on my desk all the time. So I'm looking at it and I'm like, you know, I should really reach out to her and tell her that this is impactful.
- [49:22]
Dr. Laurie Santos
This really just, like, blew my mind. And really, even this conversation, I feel like my face is going to hurt from smiling after talking about this.
- [49:28]
Avery Miller
Me as well, which is a great thing.
- [49:31]
Podcast Host/Narrator
Avery's story is a powerful example of how a few simple words can shape someone's life in unimaginable ways. But it also shows how absolutely great it feels to be the person who gives that small act of kindness. And yet, even when we know these small gestures matter, most of us still struggle to actually do them. We put off reaching out. We delay helping. We wait for the right time to give. Why do we procrastinate on doing the very thing that will make us and other people feel so good? To find out, I tagged in our final podcast host guest, a behavioral scientist who has studied this exact problem.
- [50:08]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Katie, do you want to start by introducing yourself?
- [50:10]
Katie Milkman
I'd be delighted. My name is Katie Milkman, and I am a professor at the Wharton School, host of the podcast Choiceology and author of the book how to Change.
- [50:18]
Dr. Laurie Santos
So, Katie, we've just heard all these amazing things that happen when people are nice to each other and do nice things for each other, including with money. We've also just heard not just what happens to the people who receive these wonderful things, but also what happens to you. The donor in terms of. Terms of your happiness and how great you feel. But the problem is that our minds are stupid. And sometimes we can know all this stuff and still not put it into practice. This is the kind of thing that you study, right?
- [50:43]
Katie Milkman
Yes. Although I wouldn't say our minds are stupid. I think our minds are incredible. But they're constantly taking shortcuts, and they're sort of wired for situations that don't always optimize our current environment in the modern era. So, like, the mind is amazing. I don't want to denigrate the mind.
- [50:59]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Okay, yeah, no disk to the mind. Great. You know, we're walking around, really smart primates built the Internet, all this stuff. But we sometimes forget the importance of doing for other people. Like, when it comes to our social connection, I think this is a spot where we really get it wrong.
- [51:12]
Katie Milkman
Yeah, no, absolutely. We don't anticipate how good it will feel to, you know, engage in conversations, engage in gift giving. Just be kind to others in a wide variety of ways. We don't realize how much that will actually generate happiness for us.
- [51:26]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Our minds are also stupid in that we just, like, forget stuff. Like, I'm guessing a lot of people right now are like, oh, my gosh, this is a great opportunity to give directly, but, like, you actually have to do that. And, like, forgetfulness and friction is bad.
- [51:39]
Katie Milkman
That's right. Yeah. Follow through is one of the main barriers to change that I have studied. Like, we need to remind people we need to catch them in a moment when they can take action. And actually, this relates to some research I did a number of years ago related to giving. So this was a project led by Amanda Chuan, who's an amazing professor at Michigan State, and also with my colleague here, Judd Kessler, where we were able to get data from the University of Pennsylvania's hospital system on asks they made to past patients to give. Right. So you've had an experience with the University of Pennsylvania hospital system. You were here inpatient for some sort of service or treatment. You have to stay overnight. Right. That's kind of a big deal. Or you're checked into the hospital. So you're probably feeling a lot of gratitude right now, and you have an opportunity. When the university asks, would you give to this hospital system, you have an opportunity to express that gratitude. The data we got allowed us to look at whether or not those mailings came right away or at a time delay, because they send them in batches every few months. So if the batch send happens to occur just a Couple weeks after you leave the hospital, you're going to get it real quickly. But if it happens a few months later, well, then it's going to be a long time after your inpatient stay that you're going to be asked, would you be willing to reciprocate and make a donation? And what was interesting is that we found a pretty steep decay. So if we hit you right after you've had this positive experience, you're much more likely to give. You're feeling still that warmth and gratitude and remembering how meaningful it was to be taken care of. Whereas if a little time passes, the hot state, the sort of warmth and the reciprocity feelings, those positive feelings that generate the decision to give, those are what's decaying. And that also presumably suggests that you're not going to feel as good about making that reciprocal gesture if your strong feelings have dissipated and you wait. So one of the things I think that teaches us about giving is generally when we are remembering, when we're in that hot state, when we realize how good it will make us feel. Like, take action right away. Don't let that moment slip. And I think more similarly in so many parts of your life, like when you're feeling gratitude to someone or when you've had a really positive experience and you want to make sure you don't forget to tell someone you were a great professor. Lori, and I'm so grateful for this thing you did, or thank you for mentoring me, whatever it is, express that gratitude immediately because you're going to forget if you let the moment pass. And I think one of the things I've studied in my research in other domains is just that our motivation in general waxes and wanes over time. We years ago did an episode together, Lori, about some of my work with Hang Chen Daisy of UCLA on the fresh start effect, that there are these moments when we're more motivated to make a change in our lives. And I think that's just part of a bigger process. We don't walk around the world with constant flat states of emotion and motivation. We're moving all over the place. And capitalizing on the hot state feelings is important to doing the things that are good for us in the long run, that are good for our relationships.
- [54:37]
Dr. Laurie Santos
And our happiness, because whenever we do it, we're going to feel good doing that in your fresh start work, where you look in. When do people start exercising? Whenever you get the exercise habit going, that's gonna have benefits for you whenever you actually get the gift done. The kind words said you're gonna experience benefit. But if you wait and the motivation goes away, then you're never gonna wind up getting those benefits.
- [54:56]
Katie Milkman
Exactly.
- [54:57]
Dr. Laurie Santos
So if someone's listening to this right now and they're thinking, oh, my gosh, I wanna give to GiveDirectly, how do they lock it in? Do they, like, pause the episode and.
- [55:05]
Katie Milkman
Just go, do it right now. Pause the episode and do it right now. Do not wait. That's right. Cause that feeling will decay faster than you realize. And so this is the moment to do it. Don't wait, don't delay. You think you're gonna do it tomorrow, but you won't. So do it right now.
- [55:17]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Okay, we're gonna do a pause. So hopefully during that little audio break, some folks paused the episode and actually gave to GiveDirectly. But I'm guessing some folks maybe couldn't do it immediately. Are there other social science hacks we can use if we're motivated right now, but we can actually hit. Hit like send immediately?
- [55:43]
Katie Milkman
Yeah, absolutely. Maybe you're driving right now, but you can talk to a virtual assistant in your phone. You might ask it to put a calendar alert in your calendar for later today when, you know you might have a moment to remind you to follow through and choose a specific time. You could also ask that virtual assistant to send a ping, a text, or an email to someone who can hold you accountable and check in and say, hey, please ask me when you see me partner, roommate, friend tomorrow if I've followed through on my pledge to give to give directly. We know that that social accountability and making concrete plans with reminders are two ways we can hold our future self to account for the things we want to get done.
- [56:21]
Dr. Laurie Santos
And I especially love the social accountability suggestion because that gives us a little bit of social connection. And maybe, just maybe, that partner, friend, roommate might also donate to give directly and get a little happiness Boost themselves.
- [56:33]
Katie Milkman
I love that. Perfect. Yes. Ask them to both nag you and to give themselves.
- [56:37]
Podcast Host/Narrator
Love this.
- [56:38]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Katie, thank you so much for helping us try to figure out how we can use our biases to feel better and do better in the world.
- [56:43]
Katie Milkman
Thanks so much for having me and for putting together this wonderful compilation. I love give directly and I'm really excited about it.
- [56:50]
Podcast Host/Narrator
Even small acts of generosity, a moment of encouragement, a few kind words, 10 bucks donated to a good cause can have incredible ripple effects. And the sooner you act on a charitable impulse, the sooner you'll experience that positive impact. So go ahead and join the Pods Fight Poverty campaign by donating@givedirectly.org happinesslab that's givedirectly.org happinesslab and if you're not in a position to give, that's fine. Maybe you'd consider sharing our campaign with your friends and colleagues. Just use the hashtag podsfightpoverty to raise awareness, fight extreme poverty, and unwrap a little gift of happiness for yourself, too. The Happiness Lab will continue in the holiday spirit for the rest of the year. Next week, we'll be tackling your holiday happiness woes with a very hilarious special guest, actor and podcaster Rainn Wilson. That's all next time on the Happiness lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.
- [57:59]
Katie Milkman
Hey, audiobook lovers.
- [58:01]
Podcast Host/Narrator
I'm Cal Penn. I'm Ed Helms.
- [58:03]
Dr. Maya Shankar
Ed and I are inviting you to.
- [58:04]
Podcast Host/Narrator
Join the best sounding book you've ever.
- [58:07]
Katie Milkman
Heard with our new podcast, Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.
- [58:12]
Michael Lewis
Each week we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests to discuss the latest and greatest audiobooks from Audible.
- [58:21]
Katie Milkman
Listen to hearsay on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.
- [58:25]
Dr. Maya Shankar
Follow earsay and start listening on the.
- [58:28]
Katie Milkman
Free iHeartradio app today.
- [58:30]
Dr. Maya Shankar
Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line.
- [58:36]
Podcast Host/Narrator
But first.
- [58:49]
Dr. Maya Shankar
There the last one. Enjoy a Coca Cola for a pause that refreshes.
- [59:00]
Podcast Host/Narrator
You've probably heard me say this connection is one of the biggest keys to happiness and one of my favorite ways to build that scruffy hospitality. Inviting people over even when things aren't perfect. Because just being together, laughing, chatting, cooking makes you feel good. That's why I love Bosch. Bosch Fridges with vitafresh technology keep ingredients fresher longer so you're always ready to whip up a meal and share a special moment. Fresh foods show you can, and it shows the people you love that they matter. Learn more visit boshhomeus.com this is an I heart podcast.
- [59:38]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Guaranteed human.