How to Find Your Purpose

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos
Episode: How to Find Your Purpose
Release Date: March 3, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Happiness Lab, Dr. Laurie Santos delves deep into the intricate journey of discovering one's purpose in life. Featuring an enlightening conversation with Jordan Grummet—a hospice physician, personal finance podcaster, and author of The Purpose Code—the episode explores the nuanced differences between grandiose life purposes and the more attainable, everyday pursuits that bring genuine fulfillment.

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Jordan Grummet’s Journey: From Burnout to Fulfillment

Early Trauma and Misaligned Purpose

Jordan Grummet opens up about a pivotal childhood experience that shaped his initial perception of purpose. At seven years old, he witnessed the sudden death of his father, a respected oncologist, due to a brain aneurysm. This traumatic event led young Jordan to internalize feelings of inadequacy and a misguided belief that emulating his father’s career would somehow fix his fractured world.

Jordan Grummet [04:27]: "I told myself that there was something wrong with me. I wasn't enough, I wasn't good enough, I didn't do things well enough, I wasn't lovable enough."

Pursuit of Medicine and Subsequent Burnout

Driven by this narrative, Jordan pursued a medical career with the singular goal of following in his father's footsteps. Despite overcoming a learning disability and achieving academic success, he found himself entrenched in aspects of his job he despised, leading to severe burnout.

Jordan Grummet [05:00]: "I was spending my days doing things that I didn't love and I didn't enjoy and that weren't filling me up."

Realizing that his audacious purpose was unattainable and unfulfilling, Jordan began the arduous process of redefining his sense of purpose.

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Little P Purpose vs. Big P Purpose

Understanding Purpose Anchors

Jordan introduces the concept of "little p" purpose—small, process-oriented actions that bring joy and fulfillment, contrasting them with "Big P" purpose, which often involves grand, goal-oriented ambitions that can lead to anxiety and disillusionment.

Jordan Grummet [13:26]: "Little P purpose is process oriented. Instead of goal oriented."

The Pitfalls of Purpose Mirages

He warns against "purpose mirages," which are enticing but ultimately unfulfilling goals like achieving extreme wealth or fame. These mirages distract individuals from engaging in meaningful, joyful activities that contribute to long-term happiness.

Jordan Grummet [23:27]: "Purpose mirages are basically Big P purpose that masquerades as being good for us."

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Seven Practical Tips for Finding Your Purpose

1. Avoid Purpose Mirages

Steer clear of unrealistic, high-stakes goals that promise ultimate happiness but may not align with your true passions.

Jordan Grummet [30:08]: "Most of us grab onto some version of purpose that is suggested to us."

2. Make Your Purpose Personal

Your purpose must resonate with you individually. Avoid adopting others' visions of purpose that aim to fulfill their own needs rather than yours.

Jordan Grummet [27:57]: "We don't find our purpose, we create or build it."

3. Focus on the Process, Not the Goal

Shift your mindset from achieving a specific goal to enjoying the activities that light you up in the present and future.

Jordan Grummet [13:32]: "Little P purpose is all... and so it tends to be very, very abundant."

4. Conduct a Life Review

Reflect on significant moments, relationships, triumphs, and regrets to identify what truly matters to you. This introspection helps in building purpose anchors.

Jordan Grummet [37:23]: "What are their regrets and if there's anything you can do about them."

5. Reconnect with Childhood Joys

Your childhood passions can offer invaluable clues about your authentic interests. Revisiting these can help in uncovering your little p purpose.

Jordan Grummet [30:35]: "I loved baseball cards when I was little. And so I know that's a joy of childhood."

6. Implement the Spaghetti Method

Experiment with a variety of activities to discover what resonates with you. By trying new things, you can identify what brings you joy without the pressure of commitment.

Jordan Grummet [41:34]: "You throw a bunch of things against the wall and see what sticks."

7. Embrace the Art of Subtraction

Identify and eliminate the aspects of your life and work that drain you. Focus your energy on the activities you love to enhance your overall sense of purpose.

Jordan Grummet [42:17]: "Remove as many of the bad and boring parts of your life as possible."

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Transformative Impact of Adopting Little P Purpose

Enhanced Happiness and Community Building

By embracing little p purpose, Jordan transformed his life from one of burnout to one filled with joy and meaningful connections. Purging unfulfilling responsibilities from his medical career allowed him to focus on hospice care and pursue passions like podcasting and writing.

Jordan Grummet [44:42]: "I have complete control and agency. These things allow me to feel in control, and that increases my happiness quite a bit."

This shift not only increased his personal happiness but also enabled him to build vibrant communities around his interests, fostering deeper relationships and collaborative opportunities.

Accessibility of Purpose for All

Jordan emphasizes that finding purpose isn't reserved for the privileged. Regardless of one's financial or social standing, everyone has tools and avenues to cultivate their little p purpose through creativity, community, and strategic life adjustments.

Jordan Grummet [46:35]: "Time and money are always the biggest reasons why people say they can't do this. So time... Money is a really important tool to living a life of purpose, but it's only one of many tools."

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Conclusion

In this enlightening episode, Dr. Laurie Santos and Jordan Grummet provide a roadmap for listeners seeking genuine fulfillment. By distinguishing between grandiose aspirations and attainable joys, and offering practical strategies to cultivate personal purpose, they empower individuals to lead happier, more meaningful lives.

Recap of Tips:

1. Avoid Purpose Mirages: Focus on achievable, fulfilling activities instead of unrealistic goals.
2. Make Purpose Personal: Ensure your purpose aligns with your true self, not others' expectations.
3. Focus on the Process: Enjoy the journey rather than fixating solely on the destination.
4. Conduct a Life Review: Reflect on past experiences to identify what truly matters.
5. Reconnect with Childhood Joys: Use your early passions as a foundation for purpose.
6. Implement the Spaghetti Method: Experiment with diverse activities to find what resonates.
7. Embrace the Art of Subtraction: Eliminate unfulfilling aspects to focus on what you love.

By integrating these strategies, listeners are encouraged to take actionable steps toward a life rich in purpose and happiness.

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Notable Quotes

• Jordan Grummet [02:12]: "Cause as we'll hear in this episode, purpose can be found in something as simple as collecting baseball cards and hanging out with others who share passion."

• Jordan Grummet [05:14]: "It's the Sunday scaries, right? Sunday night you're like, I don't want to go to work."

• Jordan Grummet [11:00]: "Everyone's like, I'm waiting for it. It's either going to fall on my head, I'm going to be successful and happy and the world's going to be great, or I'm going to miss it."

• Jordan Grummet [27:04]: "We have to do the hard work, which is building a life of purpose around it."

• Jordan Grummet [44:28]: "When I open the calendar app on my phone, almost everything on that app, everything in that calendar, is something that I put there and I can get rid of at the drop of a dime."

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Final Thoughts

The Happiness Lab episode "How to Find Your Purpose" offers a balanced perspective on achieving life satisfaction through practical, actionable steps. By focusing on little p purpose and fostering personal joy, listeners are guided toward a more fulfilled and connected existence.

Transcript

[Ben Walter]

The Unshakeables podcast is kicking off season two with an episode you won't want to miss. Join host Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business, as he welcomes a very special Guest, chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase, Jamie Dimon. Hear about the challenges facing small businesses and some of the oh moments Jamie has overcome. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Chase Mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates May apply. Chase JPMorgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 JP Morgan Chase & Co.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

The Happiness Lab is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. As Amica says, empathy is our best policy.

[Dietz and Watson Representative]

That's why they'll go above and beyond to tailor your insurance coverage to best fit your needs. Whether you're on the road, at home or traveling along life's journey, their friendly and knowledgeable representatives will work with you to ensure you have the right coverage in place. Amica will provide you with peace of mind. Go to amica.com and get a quote.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Today As a happiness expert, I know that mindfulness isn't just about meditation. It's also being present in our choices. And that's why I choose Dietz and Watson. They're family owned and operated and they never cut corners. Ever. They're totally transparent about what goes into their food and what doesn't, and that's why their meats and cheeses taste so great. I use their chicken sausage with no added hormones in my family recipes. With Dietz and Watson, I can be mindful about my meals and my choices. Visit dietzandwatson.com the right way to learn more about the dietz difference. That's dietzandwatson.com therightway pushkin.

[Jordan Grummet]

What'S your life purpose? That is a very big sounding question, which honestly is why most of us shy away from talking about it. Your life's purpose feels like it needs to be important. Curing a disease, saving an endangered species, or founding a billion dollar company. It's supposed to be something big, right?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Wrong?

[Jordan Grummet]

Cause as we'll hear in this episode, purpose can be found in something as simple as collecting baseball cards and hanging out with others who share passion. That's an example taken directly from the life of my guest for this episode.

Hi, I'm Jordan Grummet. I am a hospice physician, personal finance.

Podcaster, and author of the book the Purpose Code.

Jordan's career has taken many detours. At times he's found himself facing some big dead ends in his lifelong quest for purpose. But today he's pretty happy. Where Things ended up. Which makes him an excellent guide for this concluding episode of our how to season, where we'll discuss how to find your purpose. Jordan began yearning for purpose at a particularly young age, but set off to find it in a direction that he later realized was a mistake. It all began with an unexpected bereavement.

It pretty much affected everything.

I was seven years old and my father was this prominent oncologist, this cancer doctor that everyone looked up to. And he had a brain aneurysm, which meant he was literally rounding at the.

Hospital, got a severe headache, collapsed, went.

Into a coma and died within a day or two.

Back then, you know, there was no.

Talk of these extraordinary measures.

The neurosurgeon came in, said, look, he's pretty much brain dead.

And they removed life support.

And I was seven years old. And as most seven year olds are.

I looked at the world through a very self centered lens.

I told myself that there was something wrong with me. I wasn't enough, I wasn't good enough, I didn't do things well enough, I wasn't lovable enough.

And so at some point I developed the narrative in my own head that I could cosmically fix the world.

If I became a doctor like him, if I just stepped into his footsteps, if I walked his path, everything would be okay.

And that narrative served me for quite a long time.

In fact, I had a learning disability. I got over that, made my way.

Through college and medical school. This was a joyful version of purpose and identity.

At the time, I wasn't interested in.

Money or career or any of those things.

I just wanted to be like my dad.

And it served me until it didn't.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So let's talk about the part where it didn't. What happened in your medical career that, you know, what started out as kind of this important purpose kind of wound up becoming something else?

[Jordan Grummet]

Well, what pretty much happened is burnout. And what I eventually realized is this version of purpose, this audacious version of purpose, like I can cosmically save.

This fact that my father died by.

Just becoming a doctor like him wasn't actually reachable. And so I became a doctor and.

It didn't solve any of the problems. I still didn't feel good about this sentinel thing that happened in my life. And yet I was spending my days.

Doing things that I didn't love and.

I didn't enjoy and that weren't filling me up.

And so I wasn't reaching that big.

Audacious goal I had. But I also wasn't enjoying the process either.

And that is the perfect setup to burn out.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So what were some of your symptoms when you were going through burnout as a doctor? Like, how did it manifest?

[Jordan Grummet]

It's the Sunday scaries, right? Sunday night you're like, I don't want to go to work. It's the waking up in the morning.

And instead of being energized, being stressed.

I contrast that to my life today where I spend a lot more time.

Doing things that I enjoy the process of doing regardless of the goal. And I kind of jump out of bed at 4:35 in the morning every.

Morning because I'm so excited to jump in. Whereas I might have still gotten up.

At 4:30 or 5 in the morning then.

But it was more I was so.

Anxious that there were all these things.

On the table that seemed impossible that.

I had to get through.

And so it really manifests itself very differently.

There's a certain amount of optimism and.

A joy in which I leap into.

Activities now that I just didn't have then.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And so how did you break out of this? It must be really hard to kind of trained your whole career to become a doctor. You're feeling burned out. What was the next step?

[Jordan Grummet]

It was kind of a happy accident. And I think this happens to a.

Lot of people when they take on.

Big, audacious purpose that doesn't suit them.

They actually often try to fit these.

Things in that are more joyful, that.

Suit them better around the sides, like.

When they're not busy doing other things.

So I love writing, I love communicating, I love public speaking.

And so I was trying to integrate that into my life.

And I had told myself, well, you.

Can'T really do that for a living. Like writing is a hobby. It's something you do for fun.

So as fitting it in to during.

My lunch hour or at night when my wife and kids were sleeping. And so fortuitously in 2014, I was writing a blog about medicine, what it felt like to be a doctor. And this guy named Jim Dali, the white coat investor, sent me his book. And he had written a book about physician personal finance. And he wanted me to review it from my blog. And I had always had modeled for.

Me beautiful, wonderful financial behavior, but I.

Never had the words to understand what that meant. And so he sent me his book.

And it described this concept of financial independence, this idea of having enough money so that you didn't have to spend.

Your days doing things you didn't want to do.

And within a few hours of reading this, I realized I was doing fine financially. Like I didn't have to continue doing.

This thing that wasn't filling me up.

Just because I needed a paycheck, which.

Was amazing and exhilarating for all of about a minute. And then I had a major panic.

Attack because I realized this only thing that I had ever identified myself as, this only version of purpose I really knew, outside of, you know, the basic.

Pedestrian stuff of having a family and.

Kids and that kind of stuff.

But my only real sense of purpose.

Was tied to something I realized didn't suit me anymore. And not only that, but it was that singular connection I still had to my father.

And I was talking about walking away.

And I knew I had to walk away, at least on some level, because.

Of the burnout and the anxiety and the stress.

On the other hand, if I was going to walk away from this only.

Thing that had ever defined me, who would I be?

And so that started a process which.

Took years of trying to figure out how to develop and pursue a life of purpose.

And I wasn't ready to throw the.

Baby out with the bathwater.

So I couldn't just walk away from medicine, because I probably could have, at that moment, said, I'm done. I quit.

I'm out.

But I didn't have the emotional fortitude. So actually, I started with something much more simpler.

I use what I call the art of subtraction.

I started getting rid of what I.

Didn'T like at my job. I didn't love owning my own practice. I got rid of that.

I eventually got rid of the working.

In the nursing home and the nights and the weekends.

What I was left with was doing hospice work, taking care of the terminally.

Ill. And strangely enough, I realized I would do that even if I wasn't.

Being paid for it.

That was an anchor for me.

I'm like, okay, this job no longer feels purposeful.

I don't identify by it.

But there's this little piece being a.

Hospice doctor, which was an anchor of.

Joy and purpose for me, so I.

Could stick with that. But that, of course, opened up a.

Huge amount of space. Cause I was doing that about 10.

Or 15 hours a week. So the question was, what type of life did I want to lead in all that open space? And that's where I came back to those joys that I'd always submerged. Things like writing and public speaking and expressing myself. And since I got there, through learning about personal finance, it was a natural.

Place for me to start writing and podcasting about.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

It also seems like your switch to spending more time with those in Palliative care sort of taught you something else about purpose. What was that?

[Jordan Grummet]

Well, interestingly enough, my life had taken two tracks, right? One track was becoming a personal finance.

Expert, doing a blog on that, and eventually a podcast.

But the other track was I was.

Still taking care of the terminally ill. And after doing this for 10, 15.

Years and sitting at people's bedside, I realized that when I was talking to financial people, they were really good at.

Telling me how to make money or how to invest.

But often if I ask them questions like, well, what does enough look like in your life?

Or what is this serving?

I got a lot of blank stares.

On the other hand, then I'd go.

See my hospice patients who would know that the end was coming.

And all they wanted to do was.

Talk about what was important in their.

Life, and specifically about regrets. What did they regret never having the.

Energy, courage, or time to do?

And I started thinking about, what if all my financial people had this knowledge?

What if they could put themselves in.

The shoes of someone who is dying and just for a brief period of.

Time, think about those really important things.

That they hadn't accomplished? And what if we could then flip.

Those around and turn them into anchors of purpose? Like, okay, this is a beckoning.

This is an inkling.

This is this big, important thing to me.

If I do nothing for the rest.

Of my life, if I keep on saying I don't have enough time, I don't have enough money, I don't have.

Enough energy, or I'm afraid I'm going to fail, one day, a doctor like me will walk into your room and.

You'Ll realize it's too late. And so what I wanted to do was take that feeling, that knowledge, and give it to all these younger people who are trying to figure out their life.

How do we win the game?

How do we die without regrets? So regrets became purpose anchors, something we have to build a life of purpose around. And I always say this.

You don't find purpose.

Everyone's like, I'm waiting for it. It's either going to fall on my head, I'm going to be successful and happy and the world's going to be great, or I'm going to miss it.

And everything's going to be horrible.

The truth of the matter is we.

Have these whisperings, but then we have to do the hard work, which is building a life of purpose around it.

And I think the dying, they have.

That message to give us.

Don't wait until it's too late.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So it seems like to find Purpose. We have to start by knowing what it is. What is purpose? And as we think about finding it, what are some of the benefits that can come from it psychologically?

[Jordan Grummet]

So this is my favorite question because.

I think colloquially we talk about purpose.

As being our why.

And I think that's problematic.

I think the better way to look.

At it is purpose are the actions.

We take in the present and future.

That light us up.

That's it.

Simple, straightforward.

Why don't like looking at it as our why is because then it becomes high stakes and we're back to this. I either don't figure it out and all is lost, or I figure it out and I live blissfully happy.

And we all know that's not how it works.

And so I think it's a much simpler definition. Why is it important?

Well, the studies are clear.

I mean, there are a million studies.

Out there that look at having a.

Purpose in life and what that means.

And we know from various studies that.

It leads to increased health, longevity and happiness.

And so it's really important.

If we had a pill, if the doctor could give you this pill and.

Say you're going to live 10 or.

20% longer, you're going to be happier and healthier, of course we would take it.

And yet people get so confused about.

Purpose because it seems ephemeral and hard to reach that they give up on it. And in fact, other studies which seem.

To contradict those first studies show that up to 91% of people at some.

Point in their life have what's called purpose anxiety. This idea of finding their purpose actually frustrates them, cause them depression, anxiety.

And so the question is, how can it be both? How can purpose be like the most.

Important thing, but also so anxiety written? And I think part of the reason is because we get this idea of purpose wrong. We've been stuck in that purpose is our why for so long that we make these big audacious dreams, often ones we don't have the agency to achieve, and it leaves us frustrated, as opposed to focusing on action in the present and future and doing these little things that just light us up, which I think is much more associated with all those good things we see the studies show.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And so you've made this distinction that I find really important between, you know, what you seem to be calling sort of this big P purpose, the kind of big highfalutin, kind of scary anxiety inducing purpose, and what you've termed little P purpose. What's the little P purpose? What are we missing?

[Jordan Grummet]

So little P purpose is process oriented.

Instead of goal oriented.

And so the idea is doing things that light you up.

And why this is good is it's impossible to fail. I say big P purpose is all or nothing.

You either succeed in this really big audacious thing or you don't. Little P purpose is all, are all.

And so it tends to be very, very abundant.

Think about this, what are the million.

Different things we could do that we would enjoy?

Conversely, big P purpose is much more goal oriented. And usually we don't love the process.

Of doing the things we do just.

To get to this goal.

And that's problematic for a few reasons.

One is we often say things in America like if you can think it.

You can build it.

And so we don't just think of purpose, but it's always like this big outsize. I'm going to be a billionaire, I'm.

Going to run for president, I'm going to have an eight figure business. And a lot of times we're sold this by social media and society.

And so a lot of people like.

I don't know what my purpose is, I can't find it.

And so what do they do?

They go right to their phones and.

They look at Instagram and TikTok and.

What are they seeing?

They're seeing six pack abs and eight.

Figure businesses and wearing the nicest clothes and traveling to every country in the world.

And the problem is a lot of the people putting out those images, whether.

It'S in social media or in marketing.

Are trying to sell you something. But we co opt this version of purpose because we don't know what feels purposeful. And we've been told that it's supposed.

To be big and impactful and important.

But a lot of us don't have agency to actually have six pack abs.

Or run the eight figure business.

We're not the right person at the.

Right time saying the right things with the right genetics and a whole lot of luck.

And so a lot of the times we fail, which makes us feel just lost and anxious or God forbid we, we succeed and we realize that we.

Don'T still feel filled up and so.

We have to double down and then pick the biggest better thing. So now I have an eight figure business, but I want to be a multiple billionaire. I want to be in the list.

Of top 50 billionaires or what have you.

We know that we tend to habituate.

Back down to a baseline, especially with this goal oriented purpose.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

It's argued we need to look at other examples, not that kind of folks on social Media or the billionaires. Like, when we're looking for people who achieve little p purposes, it's not necessarily the people we expect. You shared the story of someone that you grew up with, this kind of baseball card guy that worked in your neighborhood. Please share his story. And why was it so powerful for gaining little p purpose?

[Jordan Grummet]

So Roman changed my life, and he.

Never, ever meant to, but he did anyway. And this is, I think, the importance of little p purpose, because not only is it reachable and something we all.

Can do, but it actually can lead.

To really big impact and legacy. And so Roman was a baseball player in high school. He blew out his knee, kind of gave up on that dream, decided not.

To go to college, and took over his father's antique shop because he was good at redoing furniture, right? They would bring him armoires and things, and he would fix them up, restain them, and sell them. And so he's busy in this life.

Running the antique store, and a gentleman dropped off an armoire, and he saw that he could make an easy profit.

So he bought it.

He was in the back, starting to fix it up at his antique store and noticed a box of baseball cards in one of the drawers.

So he called the guy up and said, hey, I got your baseball cards. You want to come pick them up? The guy said, nat, don't worry about it. So Roman knew nothing about baseball cards. So he took them, put them on.

The counter, didn't even think twice about them.

A few days later, a woman came in with her snarky teenager, looking bored.

As can be at being brought into this antique store. And then he noticed the box of.

Baseball cards and starts flipping through them.

And he looks up at Roman, says.

Hey, how much for the baseball cards? Now, Roman had no idea this was just something extra. So he was like, 10 bucks. That'll be fine. So the kid plops down $10, and.

As snarky teenagers do, he spread them.

Out on the table and said, this.

One, this one, and this one. Three of the hundred of cards.

He said, these together are worth a.

Hundred dollars on their own.

Now, Roman could have been angry, but he wasn't.

But instead, he found himself enthralled.

A part of his brain lit up.

That he wasn't expecting.

And I don't know why.

I don't think he knew why. Maybe it was that he used to remember putting baseball cards in the spokes of his bike. Or that he remembered going to Wrigley field with his dad and sitting in the bleachers when he Was a little kid.

I'm not sure what it was, and.

I don't think Roman could have told you, but he felt a spark, and that became a purpose anchor for him. Now this again is the big distinction. It's not that he found purpose, Although this one day, something lit up in his brain.

He actually had to build a life.

Of purpose around that.

So he decided, I'm going to sell.

Baseball cards in my antique store. He wasn't trying to make millions of dollars.

He already had a successful antique store.

He just said, boy, this sounds fun and interesting. So he hired the snarky teenager right away.

He started studying the baseball card market.

He started buying inventory. And a few years later, I walked into that antique store. You see, I was a 8, 9, 10 year old. My father had died. I had had a learning disability. I had almost no friends. I was the typical geek or nerd.

I had no community.

But I loved baseball cards. And so I go to that antique.

Shop and Roman became a mentor.

When I had a bad day, he would counsel me. He'd give me a free pack of baseball cards. We'd open it up and eat the God awful gum that came in the middle. And it wasn't just me, but it was dozens and dozens of other kids who found community and connections and a sense of confidence, all from Roman's little p. Purpose. Sadly, Roman eventually got cancer. He had to close the antique shop, and he died. That was like 30 or 40 years ago. But think about all those kids who left that little community that he built, who became doctors and lawyers, and maybe they bought and sold things like Roman, but walked in the world with a huge amount of confidence and a feeling like they belonged. Thirty years later, those kids are still changing the world and having their own kids and passing down maybe even the love of baseball cards. And I like to contrast that to.

Mickey Mantle, because when I was a little kid collecting baseball cards, all we.

Wanted was Mickey Mantle cards.

Now, if I, or even Roman for that matter, had decided to look at Mickey Mantle and develop a sense of purpose around him, like maybe we want to be major league baseball players and.

Break all sorts of records like him.

That's kind of big, audacious purpose.

Well, Roman couldn't. He blew out his knee.

And me, I just didn't have the talent, the skills, the mentors.

I didn't have anything in place to do that. So if that had been our version.

Of purpose, we probably both would have ended up miserable when we failed.

But instead, the guy remembers Roman. This guy who did something that lit him up. And a happy accident of that was.

That he changed the world and he still exists.

His effect, his impact are still there.

All these decades later.

So how can we follow Roman's example and find our own little p purpose? We'll hear Jordan's tips right after the break.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

As a happiness expert, I know that mindfulness isn't just about meditation. It's also about being present with your choices and for me, present at mealtime. That's why I choose Dietz and Watson. They're a family owned and operated business and they never cut corners. Ever. I use their chicken sausage with no added hormones in my family recipes. Dietz and Watson have been handcrafting meats and cheeses for over 85 years. They know that good taste doesn't need a long list of ingredients. They're totally transparent about what goes into their food and what doesn't. And that's why their meats and cheeses taste so great. They stick to what matters, using the fewest, highest quality ingredients to craft their meats and cheeses because that's how they've always done it. If you want a more mindful meal, check out Dietz and Watson. Dietz and Watson. It's a family thing since 1939. Visit dietzandwatson.com the right way to learn more about the dietz difference. That's dietzandwatson.com the right way who doesn't.

[Dietz and Watson Representative]

Love the good things in life?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

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[Jordan Grummet]

People who get hopelessly lost in the blazing desert sometimes report seeing what looks like life giving water just over the horizon. But no matter how far they walk towards that shimmering lake, they never reach it. Doctor and podcaster Jordan Gromit says those of us thirsting for purpose often fall for the same thing. We chase after visions that turn out to be what he calls purpose mirages.

Purpose mirages are basically big P purpose.

That masquerades as being good for us.

And so whether this is some net worth like I want to get to that million dollars or billion dollars or whatever it is, whether it's some career achievement, whatever it is, it's something that you convince yourself that you will be happy and everything will be perfect once you reach it. Even if you don't basically feel yourself lit up by the process of doing these things you have to do to get there. And so I'll give you a perfect example. I see this all the time in podcasting because I love podcasting. And for me podcasting is little p purpose.

It's something I deeply enjoy the process of doing.

Once I get in front of that microphone to interview someone, it doesn't matter.

What comes of it other than I have a really joyful hour of conversation.

I could turn that into a mirage. I could kind of say, well that's fine, but I also want to get a million downloads a month. And so all of a sudden this.

Changes from something I enjoy the process.

Of doing to more of a goal.

Oriented, goal centered process.

And Maybe I realized to get there, I'm going to have to do some.

Things I really don't want to do.

Like, I don't love social media. I don't love making TikTok videos.

Those are things I agonize over and find that I.

When I do them, I'm generally not happy at the end of the day, but I really want to get to that million downloads.

Maybe that's something I need to do. And so what happens is we set.

Ourselves up to not enjoy what we're.

Doing for most of the time, whether.

We get to that goal or not.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And I think this is so important because I've seen, not just in my own life, but especially with my Yale students, right, where this idea of kind of going after these mirages, whether it's money or accomplishments or grades or whatever, it winds up crowding out the little p purpose that they could have had. You love your sport, and you're sort of. Maybe you're a track athlete because of that, but then it's. Then it's the wins and the monies, and then you start hating it because now you're sort of chasing after these other things. So we can get in these situations where, like, the part that we hate going after the wrong thing can, like, literally get rid of the joy that we were getting from something else before.

[Jordan Grummet]

Yeah, I mean, I think happiness, contentment is really a marathon, not a sprint. Again, we set ourselves up for burnout because we are doing things we innately.

Don'T love to get to this thing we think we will love.

But the problem is you spend so much time in the process and so little time in actually achieving the goal.

And again, we're really good as human.

Beings at habituating back down to a certain level of happiness.

So even if you think that goal is going to really light you up.

And you're going to be happy the rest of your life because of it.

We all know that it's fleeting, it's.

Transitory, so it makes much more sense to invest in those things we enjoy the process of doing, because that's going to actually take up most of our time.

And, you know, the secret is time.

Passes no matter what you do.

It can't be commoditized. You can't buy it, you can't sell.

It, you can't trade it. The only thing you can do is control what activities you're involved with as time passes.

And so winning the game, in my.

Opinion, is filling up that time with as much purposeful activity.

You love the process of doing and.

Getting rid of as many things that you loathe as possible. And especially with young people, I love.

To say, it behooves you to start.

Looking at your calendar today and start.

Working towards improving that calendar every week, every month, because time is finite and.

We have no idea how much we have. And so I want you all to win the game. So I really want you to continuously look at the calendar and build in things you love, little P Purpose and get rid of things you loathe and just wash, rinse and repeat over and over again.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And that gets to your second tip for kind of finding better little P Purpose, right? Which is that when we kind of look through our calendar, we have to pay attention to what's going on internally. Tip number two is that you can't look for your purpose externally. You need to find it yourself. This is one that I really love because especially when thinking about my students, I think it's so easy for them and for all of us to just get caught up in other people's ideas of what, you know, our purpose should be. We can kind of co opt what other people seem to like in ways that sort of really run us astray. How do we fix this? How do we find our purpose internally?

[Jordan Grummet]

There are some great ways to really.

Connect with your sense of purpose, but it is true. The first thing you have to realize is society marketing, social media. Everyone has a version of purpose for.

You that probably fulfills their needs.

So when we think of society marketing, it's obvious they want to make money on you, but but also your parents.

And your family, they have a version.

Of purpose for you and often it fulfills their needs. Maybe you can make up for the.

Thing they couldn't do, or maybe they're worried about your stability and so they create this version of purpose for you too, which might not align with who you actually are.

And so the idea is to let go of other people's version of purpose.

And get more in touch with yours.

And so I often say we don't.

Find our purpose, we create or build it.

But it is true that we need.

These purpose anchors, which are inklings or.

Beckonings of things that light us up, which we can then build a life of purpose around. And so the best way is to.

Think about a number of exercises we.

Actually can do that help us get way more in touch with what these purpose anchors are.

You and I talked about one of.

Them in the beginning, which is the regrets of the dying.

I think think regret is a wonderful.

Way to Start thinking about purpose again.

People who are dying only have a short period of time left.

They don't have a lot of energy.

And so unfortunately, regret is really, really disappointing because they don't have agency to do anything about that.

But if we can put you in that mindset of what would you regret.

At the end of your life if.

That was to be in the next.

Week or month and start thinking, what have I never had the energy, courage or time to do?

We can then turn that into a purpose anchor.

That's the easy part, is realizing what's important to us. The hard part is then you've got to do the work.

You've got to actually build a life of purpose around it. So I think regrets are a great way. Another one is joys of childhood.

So I always tell people, kids are extremely purposeful, right? They haven't co opted anyone else's version of purpose yet, especially when they're very young. So they go out and they play, they do whatever they want to do.

They lose track of time.

They enter what we call this flow state where they're so lost they forget to come home for dinner and they're.

Just enjoying the moment. Kids don't worry about some big audacious goal.

Most of the time they just want to do what they want to do. They love the process of doing it.

We let go of those versions of purpose as we get older, when we.

Start thinking about career and school and.

All those other things.

So I often tell people, you know.

Look around to your bedroom, think back to what decorated your bedroom.

What were the posters, what were the trophies, what were the drawings?

Often those can be those beckonings that.

We can then build a life purpose around. Hey, for me, I'm busy, right?

I have a lot of things going on. I have a lot of purpose anchors.

But if I ever run out of them. I loved baseball cards when I was little.

And so every time I'm scrolling through Facebook or looking in the newspaper and I see something about baseball or baseball cards, especially like with the old time photos, my brain lights up.

I feel it, I feel it in my chest, I feel it in my brain.

I'm like, I get really excited.

So I know that's a joy of childhood.

It could be a purpose anchor.

And if I find that I really am like, boy, life doesn't feel very purposeful and I've free time, I can start pursuing that.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

It seems like what you're doing there is sort of getting to what your tip number three is, right? Which is that we need to notice the process, not the goal. We need to kind of pay attention to these so called purpose anchors, the stuff that lights us up. You've mentioned purpose anchors before, but I wanted you to kind of give me a quick definition. You know, what are these sorts of things?

[Jordan Grummet]

So purpose anchors are just the inklings.

They are the beckonings of things that you could find joy in. And so the question is, what seems.

Joyful out of the box?

And again, a lot of people like, well, I don't know what that is.

But a lot of us do know.

That they're whisperings in our life. Like, I knew when I was training to be a doctor that I also wanted to be a writer. There was just something about it, and that's why I was trying to fit.

It into these little bits of time when I wasn't busy with other things.

We all know that many of us are trying to fall asleep at night. And sometimes we have these crazy ideas and we get so excited we stay up all night, we can't fall asleep.

And then the next day you are.

So exhausted, you figure it was crazy. You move on, you go to work.

And never think about it again. But sometimes those are the whisperings.

Like, what keeps you up at night?

What excites you?

What do your friends and family tell you?

When you do this thing, you are most lit up. Those are those anchors.

They're just things that cause you immediate joy.

There doesn't need to be an explanation.

But it's a great place to start that active process of creating action in.

The present and future, building what I call these climbs, these purposeful activities.

It's just a great starting place and.

They should be abundant.

Most people, when they do the work.

Realize that there are actually lots of.

Little things out there that excite them.

And when they let go of this.

Idea that has to be this big important thing or something other.

Other people want to do, or it.

Has to lead to some kind of wealth or fame. When they drop all that, that and just say, well, what are the things I love to do? It becomes much easier and much more abundant, which is something that people never. They never use that term, abundant. When they talk about purpose, it always.

Seems like it's something totally scarce.

And so that's why I want to kind of flip that switch.

It's time for a quick break, but when we return, Jordan will share a lesson he learned from patients in their final days of life. The Happiness Lab. We'll be right back.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

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[Jordan Grummet]

Dr. Jordan Gromit says he was wrong to think that practicing medicine would give his life purpose. But he did find one part of his profession that was deeply fulfilling his work with people at the end of their lives. Working in palliative care taught him another great way to identify that little p purpose, by conducting what's called a life review.

So I first heard of life review as a hospice medical director.

And so I started hospice work because I was working with a lot of elderly and I was taking care of.

Them at the end of life.

And a hospice nurse said, hey, you're really good at this.

Maybe you should work with us.

There's not a huge number of hospice doctors. I started working with them, and a.

Lot of times you learn on your feet, especially doing things like this.

And I would go to our weekly.

Meetings and the social workers would keep.

On talking about, okay, we performed a life review, et cetera. And, you know, the first time or two I heard it, I didn't think much about it. But then I started asking questions.

What is this life review and why.

Do we do it?

And so in hospice, we have a few main goals.

It's not to prolong life. What it is, is to make people comfortable, cover their pain, their nausea, make.

Sure they're dying where they want to die, whether that's home in a nursing home, or assistive living. But another piece of that is helping them come to terms and their family, for that matter, come to terms with this idea that their life is end.

And one thing that social workers, chaplains.

Doctors, nurses, can do with a patient.

Or their family is called a life review.

It's a series of structured questions that.

Ask people to really review the important moments in their lives. What were their most important moments? What were their biggest triumphs? What were their biggest failures?

Which relationships meant the most to them?

And a big part of that, too.

We often ask, is, what are their regrets?

And so this life review I found.

So beneficial in the dying, and it.

Helps people find this sense of peace.

But I also realized when working with hospice, you know, a lot of people ask me, how do you Have a good death. And so I often say, well, the.

Best way to have a good death.

Is to have a good life because.

We tend to die the way we lived.

And so then the question becomes how.

To have a good life.

And I was seeing so much benefit.

With this life review while people were dying. Why not start doing that earlier? Why aren't we doing this on a yearly basis? Why aren't we doing these life reviews and asking ourselves those big questions?

And again, I especially like the regret question because I think it's a great place to start working on those purpose anchors.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And so that's sort of tip number four, this idea of a life review. Tip number five is something we mentioned a little bit before, but I want to dig into a bit now, which is this idea of going back to childhood. Like literally going back to your childhood room. When you go back to your childhood room, what do you see? And what did it tell you about your little Pete Purpose?

[Jordan Grummet]

Oh my God.

There was a message of baseball cards.

In every way, shape or form.

There were sports posters, there were trophies from Little League. There was probably a few notebooks of.

Papers and pens because I started writing poetry when I was little.

There were school books everywhere. Funny enough, there were the hints of.

What I would eventually become as an adult.

I just didn't know it at the time.

What there wasn't. There wasn't pictures of famous doctors, there wasn't toy stethoscopes, Grey's Anatomy, that famous.

Book was not on my bookshelf.

Interestingly enough, there was almost nothing that.

Reflected an interest in medicine.

And so many things that suggested an.

Interest in certain types of sports, in collecting, in writing, in communicating.

All of that.

Was there just nothing about being a doctor?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So you had baseball cards, piles of stuff, evidence of your writing, no stethoscopes. What kind of hint is that giving you about your purpose?

[Jordan Grummet]

I was trying to co opt someone else's version of purpose, my father's. And because I had gone through this really traumatic thing and I needed as a kid to grasp onto something that made sense so I could move forward. And so it really made sense that if I became a doctor like him, I would fix everything. But co opting his version of purpose didn't fit with who I was. And so all you had to do was look around that room to see who I was. But I really built a life around this purpose that wasn't mine. And I would submit that most of us do exactly that. Most of us grab onto some version of purpose that is suggested to us.

There are a few really lucky people who don't.

Who realize what lights them up and pursue that path. But most of us pivot to becoming adults. We're told, okay, playtime is over. You were a kid then, but now you're becoming a young adult, and it's time to get serious about school. It's time to pick one of those main careers that suggest success that's gonna provide for you economically. And I think all of us do that.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

We just jump in and just forget all the stuff that was on our floor. And you've argued that if you look at your childhood room and there's lots of stuff all over the floor, then that's okay, too. That gets us to tip number six, which is what you've called the spaghetti method. What's the spaghetti method? And why is it okay if lots of stuff comes up when you start looking for these small purposes?

[Jordan Grummet]

Well, here's the thing. When discussing little p. Purpose, I still get people who are resilient. They'll say, look, I thought about regrets in the life review. That's not how helping me.

I've thought about the joys of childhood.

That's not helping me.

I've looked at my job, and there's.

Nothing there that I love.

That's not helping me. And so if you are one of.

Those people, if you were kind of resilient to finding these anchors, I think it behooves you to find the spaghetti.

Method, which is you throw a bunch.

Of things against the wall and see what sticks. You say yes to things you normally.

Don'T say yes to.

You talk to people you normally don't talk to. You do things that maybe make you feel a little anxious or uncomfortable.

And at the end of the day.

You evaluate and say, did that light me up? Yes or no? And if the answer is, hey, I did find some joy in that, that.

Might be the beginning of a purpose anchor.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And so you kind of do use the spaghetti method and find all these possible purpose anchors by trying these new things. But you've also argued the flip side, which is like, we can't have little p. Purpose in everything, especially if we are busy with all this stuff that's not giving us purpose. And that's what gets us to your final tip tip number seven, which might be a hard one for a lot of us. We need to embrace the art of subtraction. What's that?

[Jordan Grummet]

So I often talk about the workplace, because this is a question I get all the time. They're like, look, I've got to do my 9 to 5. I don't love it, but I need to make money. You're saying, find your purpose. I feel stuck. Like this is something that's not purposeful.

For me, but I've got to do it. And it is what it is.

And so what I always tell people is do exactly what I did with being a doctor.

I want you to list out the 20 things that are roles and responsibilities of your job.

And I want you to take a sharp pencil and start scratching out everyone you don't like, everything you loathe, everything.

That'S boring, et cetera. Most, most people, when they do that, will have one or two things left over.

For me, it was hospice medicine.

And so the goal then is, remember.

We said winning the game is doing as much little people as possible and getting rid of as many things you load as possible. Wash, rinse, repeat.

So the goal then is, I'm not.

Going to get out of this job, but what levers are available to maybe do more of that stuff I love.

In the job and do less of.

Stuff I don't love? And so let me give you another example. Think about it this way. Let's say you work at a restaurant and you don't like working up front at the counter, and you spend 90% of your time doing that. But the one thing you do love is every Thursday morning you get to stock the stock room.

It takes about two hours. You love writing things down.

You love organizing, you love ordering.

That's it.

Well, maybe the person who owns your restaurant owns four restaurants and there's an employee who has to stock for each of those restaurants. And maybe so you go to your.

Boss and say, you know what?

I don't really love my time at.

The counter helping customers.

Maybe you allow me to go to.

All of our different restaurants every day and I'll stock and do the stock.

Room in each one of them.

And therefore, what I've done is I've increased the time I'm doing something I.

Like and decrease the time of doing.

Something I don't like.

And so you're starting to improve things. You're starting to improve that calendar.

You're starting to win the game just a little bit.

So if we can think about that.

Month to month, year to year, how.

Much change can we bring in? How many things can we subtract? How many joyful things can we add.

And how can we improve those numbers?

So ultimately, as we get older and.

Older, we're doing more and more things.

That we love and Less and less things that we loathe.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So how has following these tips really helped your life? I mean, we started this story with you being a very burned out doctor, and you tried some new things. Where's your sense of purpose now?

[Jordan Grummet]

I mean, I learned that I could.

Walk away from medicine 2014. It took me till 2018 to subtract out enough to be left with only hospice work and jump into other things.

And I find myself a lot happier.

And I'll tell you why.

I mean, it really comes down to this.

When I open the calendar app on my phone, almost everything on that app, everything in that calendar, is something that I put there and I can get rid of at the drop of a dime.

I spend a lot of time podcasting.

And sometimes I edit my own podcast.

Okay, that can be painful.

But if I decided I didn't want to do it, I could get rid of it and just not put an episode out. I have complete control and agency. I have autonomy. These things allow me to feel in control, and that increases my happiness quite a bit. I found that I've been able to improve that calculus of my schedule over the years over and over again. And so most of the things I do are things I want to do, and that feels deeply fulfilling. And what's really beautiful about that is not only do I really like doing these things, I found that I connect to other people more. Because when I was a doctor, I didn't love being a doctor, so I kind of didn't like hanging out with doctor people. I didn't tell people I was a doctor. When I'd go to a party, I wouldn't tell anyone what I did for a living because I was embarrassed. And so I knew doctors for decades, but never connected with them on a deeper level. When I started doing things that lit me up, that I loved, not only did I connect with people within minutes, but I also started collaborating with them, having them on my podcast, and then they would have me on their podcast, and then I was writing a book, and they'd say, hey, I've got this agent. They helped me. Why don't you meet my agent? And so what happened is I ended up building communities around these activities, and that has really led to happiness. Not just doing what I want to do, but connecting with people, collaborating, building and being part of communities of people who I love, doing things that I find deeply interesting.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And it seems like you are in a very lucky place. Right? You'd had this time as a doctor. You were sort of financially successful enough that you can move certain things around in a way that not everybody could. But it sounds like your message is that this isn't just something for privileged folks who are starting out with the right finances to switch things around. This is something that everybody can do.

[Jordan Grummet]

It is.

And so what I often remind people.

And this is really the privilege conversation. People look at me and say, well.

You were a doctor and you found.

Out that you understood your finances and everything was great.

Well, lucky for you. But that's not me.

Like, I'm 22, I'm working 50, 60 hours a week. I don't have time to do the things I love, and I don't love my job either. Well, there are a few things, really. Time and money are always the biggest reasons why people say they can't do this. So time. Let's talk about that really quickly. First, the Bureau of Labor Statistics does the American Time Survey on a regular basis. They've generally found that most Americans have.

About five hours of free time a day.

And actually those in lower socioeconomic classes.

Probably have a little bit more.

And so it's probably not time.

So then it's money.

And I like to say money is.

A really important tool to living a life of purpose.

But it's only one of many tools.

And so often we forget to use.

Our passions, our youth, our energy, our.

Connections, our skills, our communities. All of these things are tools also.

And so I like to say, hey.

You'Re 22 and you're working 50 hours.

A week and you don't like your job. Can you use the art of subtraction to do more of what you do, like, within the job? Or can you use the joy of addition?

Maybe you have a lot of energy.

And you have more free time on the weekends because you don't have a.

Family and you don't have a mortgage.

And you don't have kids yet.

And so you can start doing a purposeful, joyful activity.

Maybe you turn it into a side.

Hustle that eventually leads to some economic margin.

But even if it doesn't, you've used.

The joy of addition to add in.

Some purpose into your life, even if.

You haven't gotten rid of something you don't love.

We have all these other levers that.

People generally don't think of. If I'm 22 and I live in.

The same city as my parents, maybe.

I go live in their basement and.

Don'T have to pay rent. Maybe that gives me a little economic margin so I can work four days.

A week at this job.

I don't like instead of five days a week, maybe I can fill that.

Other day with purpose or some money.

Making activity and start controlling things, start improving that schedule.

I think it's easy to say this.

Is an argument of privilege, but we.

Know that there are some tools and.

Some levers that we can use to.

Start bringing purpose into our life. Now, even if that's 15 minutes of.

Me scrolling through Facebook and joining baseball.

Card or baseball fan pages, those 15 minutes are still adding in something joyful.

And that's that little beginning that we.

Start building off of.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And I think one of the things we know from the purpose research is that once you open up to that little beginning, once you try a little bit, you wind up feeling more energized, you wind up getting more community, you wind up getting more opportunities to do this. So in some sense you grow your purpose pie over time just by trying this out in little ways.

[Jordan Grummet]

Yeah, it's momentum.

The hardest thing is starting the hardest thing.

And again we get back to purposes.

Action and present in the future. The hardest thing is building the momentum.

For that first action.

But once you start taking these actions, the momentum builds.

And so again, autonomy, agency, this idea.

That I can actually control what's happening in my life. Once you start feeling that, it almost becomes addictive.

You don't want to stop.

You might not want to stop adding purpose to your life, but some good things have to come to an end. Like this episode. But let's quickly recap Jordan's tips for finding purpose. Tip number one is to avoid those purpose mirages. Getting rich, becoming famous, winning a Grammy. These aren't realistic goals that are really going to transform your life. Instead, look for little P purpose and things you can do right away. Tip number 2 2. Your purpose has to be yours and yours alone. Don't do things just to impress your parents, friends or peers. The third tip is to stop thinking of purpose as a goal you've got to reach. Instead, think of it as a process and engage in joyful activities whenever they present themselves. Tip four is to conduct a life review. Ask yourself about your regrets and if there's anything you can do about them.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Before it's too late.

[Jordan Grummet]

Children are great at finding purpose, so tip number five is to look back.

[Dietz and Watson Representative]

At your childhood passion.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Are there any clues to the things.

[Jordan Grummet]

That might bring you joy as an adult? And if you draw a blank, tip number six recommends the spaghetti method. Just experiment and try out lots of stuff that might give you more purpose. And the final tip, tip seven isn't about adding more. It's about subtraction. Remove as many of the bad and boring parts of your life as possible. We've reached the end of Jordan's tips, the end of this episode, and the end of our how to season. But not to worry as we'll have lots more in store for you over the coming weeks. So be sure to return soon for the next episode of the Happiness lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

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[Dietz and Watson Representative]

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