← The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos
The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos
Make Vulnerability Your Superpower (with NBA star Kevin Love)
00:37:07
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- [00:00]
Dr. Laurie Santos
This is an I Heart Podcast. We often think we know our type in dating tall, funny, a certain job. But the research shows we're usually not the best predictors of who will actually make us the happiest. As we often say on the Happiness Lab, our minds lie to us about all kinds of stuff, and that definitely includes the kinds of things we need to be happy in a relationship. That's why it helps to stay curious. I on Bumble Features like shared interests and prompts make it easy to notice right on someone's profile initial sparks of compatibility, like a shared love of cooking or the same nostalgic TV shows. Shared interests and prompts let you showcase your personality right on your profile and connect with people who get your vibe. And with photo and ID verification, you can feel confident the person you're talking to is real, so you can date with a bit more confidence. When you treat dating as exploration, instead of sticking to a rigid type, you open yourself up to happier, more meaningful connections. So maybe your type isn't tall, dark and mysterious. Maybe it's lovespodcast as much as you do. Stay open, stay curious, and let yourself be surprised. Download Bumble Today Fitness is constantly evolving. I mean, we've gone from jumping jacks to the new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus Powered by Peloton iq, which is essentially the future of fitness. It's like cross training reimagined Peloton IQ completely personalizes your workouts. I'm talking tailored plans, progress tracking, all of it. Plus you can switch from doing cardio to strength with one spin of the swivel screen. It's instant variety. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go explore the new Peloton cross training treadmill@1peloton.com AutoTrader is powered by Auto Intelligence, the hyper personalized way to buy a car with tools that sync with your exact budget and preferences so you only see vehicles you can afford and actually want. Choose new or pre owned, narrow by style and select features, even trailer hitch. Go ahead and get picky and with pricing you'll see which listings are the best deals so you can feel like you're winning the negotiation without negotiating. Autotrader Powered by Auto Intelligence makes car buying less of a process. Visit autotrader.com to find your perfect ride.
- [02:29]
Interviewer / Host
Pushkin.
- [02:36]
Dr. Laurie Santos
As a happiness researcher, I'm grateful to live in 2025, a time when there's been an explosion of conversations about the importance of taking care of your well being. But we're honestly still in the early stages of Breaking the silence around the mental health issues that so many of us struggle with. And in some communities, the stigma against dealing with these issues still runs deep. Men, for example, are much less likely than women to seek counseling or treatment for mental health challenges. And among athletes, that stigma can be even higher. I've seen this firsthand with my student athletes at Yale. Many of them hold themselves to incredibly high standards, both in the classroom and on the field. Many of them worry that admitting to mental struggles could seem like a weakness or proof that they're not fit to play. It often takes someone accomplished, respected, and at the top of their game to model vulnerability and open these conversations up for others. Fortunately, I'm lucky to have one of those figures here today. Five time NBA all star Kevin Love, who I was thrilled to speak with. Even though I'm a Boston Celtics fan.
- [03:39]
Kevin Love
I love having these conversations because I get to learn, you know, if you're not so against the Miami Heat, that we can have that conversation.
- [03:46]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Let's continue.
- [03:47]
Kevin Love
Okay.
- [03:48]
Dr. Laurie Santos
This week marks the beginning of Kevin's 18th season in the NBA. I should note that even though he was playing for the Miami Heat at the time this was recorded, he was recently traded to the Utah Jazz. I spoke with Kevin about his experiences with grief, anxiety and depression and how he went from keeping those struggles private to becoming a public leader in the mental health space.
- [04:09]
Interviewer / Host
So we usually start with an introduction. So can I just have you introduce yourself and tell our listeners what you do?
- [04:16]
Kevin Love
Yeah. Last night we had to describe how we looked. You know, people with disabilities in the blind.
- [04:21]
Interviewer / Host
Oh yeah, it's funny.
- [04:22]
Kevin Love
Like I'm Kevin Love. I'm 36, but I have gray hair and blue eyes and very tall. Very tall. Yeah, I was like, I'm six, eight. I literally did say that. I'm like, I'm six, eight plus. But my contract height once said I was six' ten and maybe I shrunk, but I digress. Sorry. No. I'm Kevin Love, ballplayer, professional athlete in the NBA for 17 years. I'll be heading into my 18th year. I'm not the best at intros, but I'm a father of two girls. One that just turned two years old, another that is four months. My wife Kate, and a beautiful six year old puppy named Vestry who is. You know, they say you live longer when you have dog, so very good for my mental health gets me outside. And that's what unconditional love looks like.
- [05:07]
Interviewer / Host
So I'm curious to hear how you get started in basketball. I understand that in A lot of ways, it started with your dad's career. Tell me about that.
- [05:15]
Kevin Love
Yeah, so my dad, he played three years, the University of Oregon, was drafted ninth in 1971 by the Baltimore Bullets. Played for the Lakers as well, played for the Hawks, played for the spurs in short stints. And, you know, he was my first hero. He was like a giant to me. He was a protector. And he's six, nine, imposing. I mean, it would've been great in today's NBA because he could run, he could jump, he could shoot, have photos that date back to 1988 when I was born, and I'm in my stroller with a basketball. And from then on, I'm just kind of looking at everything that my dad did, try to emulate him, and I just wanted to just mimic his every move and just wanted basketball to be a part of my life. It was truly my first love.
- [06:00]
Interviewer / Host
I can imagine that makes you love basketball a lot. I can also imagine that that comes with a lot of pressure.
- [06:05]
Kevin Love
Yeah, it certainly did. Especially in Portland, being not a big city. I was a big fish in a small pond very early, and that came with a lot of expectation. And with a father who played at the highest level, competed at the highest level, having gone to University of Oregon just a little bit down the road in Eugene, there was certainly a lot of pressure. I'm still learning to unpack the weight of expectations for, you know, the last at least 20 years, because when it came to my early teenage years and primarily high school, there was certainly a lot of that. So there was a lot of pressure, and a lot of that I'm thankful for. But on the other side of that, there was an ugliness to it. And at that age, I didn't have the language to be able to express what I was feeling. And especially as a young man, I just had the playbook to bury it and compartmentalize and try and be stoic within my masculinity and my feelings. And that drove me to be pretty emotion phobic over the course of time.
- [07:07]
Interviewer / Host
Which must have been especially hard because I know you've talked about kind of the anxiety you experienced early on in life. You had this quote where you noted that your default setting was often one of dread. Yes, I'm sure a lot of folks listening right now can recognize the signs of anxiety, but how did that manifest for you early on?
- [07:22]
Kevin Love
Well, when I speak about that, it's dread because my whole entire identity was built up to be just a basketball player. And how am I going to work myself out of this depression or this anxiety, I'm like, if I can just get that one more accolade, or we can win one more championship, or I can be not just the state player of the year. I got to be the national player of the year. We have to win the national championship. In some ways, it's, like, masochistic. Like, it hurts so good, right? Chase those things and that's okay. Like, that can be a admirable quality in some cases. But your brain is going to go back. Dopamine is going to go down. You're going to go back to that baseline. And I think that's when you think that these things are going to, for lack of a better term, fix you those anxieties. And especially the dark spells and depression. Those emerge from dormancy. They just come in waves. And in some cases still, when I have failures, it can be a house of cards and just burned down very quickly. So that's what happened with me, and maybe even more so with high achievers as well.
- [08:30]
Interviewer / Host
And this is the kind of thing I totally see in my students at Yale, right? I work with a lot of amazing student athletes. I don't know if they're going to play for the heat, but, you know, we'll see. But, yeah, but this idea that their whole identity is caught up in their performance, that they're, you know, an athlete versus a basketball player first, you know, lacrosse player first and then a human second.
- [08:49]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Right?
- [08:49]
Interviewer / Host
And then just this, like, incredible perfectionism where you just have to be perfect all the time. My students are fond of this DJ Khaled song, All I Do Is Win. But it's like, well, if all you do is win, then the first time you lose, it's like the whole world has crumbled down. Right, Right. And it seemed like you were dealing with that. But also this super hyper masculine culture, like where you grew up. But I think also, you know, having your dad in the early days of the sport where this stuff really wasn't talked about.
- [09:14]
Kevin Love
And it's generational, too. I mean, there's some generational trauma within my family. I mean, Brian Wilson just died as well. And, you know, my dad was a caretaker and a bodyguard for Brian when he had struggled with substance abuse. And.
- [09:31]
Interviewer / Host
And just to be clear, Brian, you're actually.
- [09:33]
Kevin Love
Brian is our cousin. You know, Beach Boys were started in a garage in Hawthorne, California. And it was, you know, the loves side, their cousins were the Wilsons. And it was Brian and it was Carl, and it was Dennis, and it was, you know, my Uncle Mike and they created the west coast sound. And, you know, he. He dealt with his share of mental health problems as well as. I mean, the loves, I think have always been prone to melancholy and dark spells dating back almost a hundred years now. I keep looking back and unpeeling layers of all of that where I'm like, yes, this helps tell the story. It is generational. And that was something that my dad and I spoke about towards the end of his life when he was in hospice. We really finally opened up about it. His emotional regulation was never quite there because of his father being a physical father. And so when my dad was in hospice, he started seeing some of those things in his dreams. And a lot of those memories had come up in a very ugly way, but it allowed him to be a lot more vulnerable and face it. But it was him coming to peace with how he lived. The true lesson that he taught me through all of this, as well as our relationship, we were estranged for a number of years and, you know, he taught me two true wisdoms that were reconciliation and forgiveness as well.
- [10:57]
Interviewer / Host
It's so great that you were able to reconcile with your father before he passed and also kind of come to terms with the fact that he struggled with emotion regulation and it wasn't his fault.
- [11:05]
Kevin Love
Well, I get it now. Yeah, I get it. Like, it all makes sense. He did the best that he could and he wasn't equipped. And there's such a stigma. There's still stigma, huge stigma around speaking about mental health. And what am I going to do after basketball? What if there's nothing for me after my sport? And my dad certainly fought that as well. And I think he felt like he failed often. But I kept telling him, I go, dad, all you wanted at the end of your life was your kids, to be there when you passed and for mom to be here when you pass and to be at home and to die at home. And I go, dad, you're successful. You are enough. You're here, your kids are here. We want to be here. And success is having your kids come home. Like, we're here, we got you.
- [11:49]
Interviewer / Host
That's so awesome.
- [11:50]
Kevin Love
So I'm like, you're successful. You can die knowing that, like, you're good.
- [11:54]
Interviewer / Host
Yeah, it's so cool to hear you say that because it feels like that must have been such hard won knowledge, right? Like hearing about how things started off, it really was like, don't talk about your mental health. Even as your dad was dealing with Brian Wilson, it sounds like his kind of way to deal with Substance use and mental health issues was like, let's get you on the court.
- [12:12]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Let's exercise more.
- [12:13]
Interviewer / Host
And this was something that you. I know, took on early on, too. Right. We often talk on the Happiness Lab podcast about how exercise is really good for mental health, but it seems like your exercise pushed into, like, you know, trauma, perfectionism, rather than just mental health.
- [12:26]
Kevin Love
Yes. I think that in some ways, I was killing two birds with one stone. And I do love to work out, but there is still something there that I'm like, am I doing that this because I have to be perfect, or I'm doing this because I have to stay in my sport?
- [12:39]
Interviewer / Host
And early on, that was in some ways really reinforced because you get very, very good at your sport.
- [12:44]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Yes.
- [12:45]
Interviewer / Host
When did you first realize that you could be a professional kind of like your dad?
- [12:49]
Kevin Love
My best friend's dad tells it all the time. First day of preschool, driving us home, and he kind of asked, what do you want to be when you grow up? I said, I'm just going to be in the NBA like my dad. And he tells the story all the time and talks about how he's like this kid. There was just something about him where I actually believed. I really, truly believed him. I'll be honest with you. I always believed it. There was no doubt in my mind. And I think it helped that, you know, the doctor said. I heard them say when I was young, and the pediatrician, they said, well, he's gonna be very tall. This is gonna be a tall kid. I knew I had that. I liked the idea of being tall like my dad. And being a basketball player was all I ever wanted to be. But it was probably around 8th grade and my freshman year of high school when I, you know, I played up with my brother. I was playing two grades up with him, and then I was playing against college players and then pro players once I got into high school. And I thought to myself, if I just keep on this same track and keep this singular focus, I can have a lot of success. And if you have to have a little bit of luck, it's timing, it's culture, it's demographic, it's luck. It's all of these things. But I certainly had.
- [14:02]
Interviewer / Host
That definitely involved some luck, but also involved a tremendous amount of hard work and skill. Yeah, you became super successful early on in your career. You know, all star 2010 world champion, 2012 Olympic gold. But in some ways, I feel like that luck was kind of contrasted with a lot of tough stuff that happened early on in your career. I know in 2013, you had a huge hit. Yeah. So tell me what happened.
- [14:25]
Kevin Love
I just never went through the grieving process with my grandmother. And she was the cornerstone. She was like the pillar of our family. She lived right next door to us our entire life. And she, she was just so special. She didn't need much. She just wanted family. She wanted to volunteer at the school, she wanted to help raise my sister, who was a preemie baby. As you know, my dad worked a back breaking job at, you know, a warehouse. But she was just the absolute rock and the best woman. And I don't think I appreciated it or had the presence of mind to lean into that type of a figure in our life. And she was right there. So there was so much regret. I talk about it all the time. Regret. It's more tied up in inaction rather than action. Like, of course there's things that I did and especially offloaded hurt on people that were the closest to me or just did not deserve it. So I certainly regret that action. But the inaction of not spending more time with my grandmother and you go to her little cottage and you go around there and you just see photos of like everything that her family had ever done because she understood what really mattered. And I don't think I appreciated that enough. I didn't go back when she, you know, was cremated or get to grieve with my family back home in Portland. I just kept on being with the team in Minnesota. I was there for six years. I just kept being with them and lost myself in basketball. I was just running from it. I didn't want to go to the extremities of those feelings. So I never got to unpack that. And that manifested in my body in different ways again, the body and keep score. Everybody loves to say that, but it's so true. In some way, shape or form, that's going to have to come out. And for me, it was in panic attacks, it was rage fits, it was agoraphobia, not wanting to go out for maybe fear of public embarrassment or felt like I was doing something wrong.
- [16:23]
Interviewer / Host
And that must have been a really awful one, two punch because my sense is like, you had her loss, but then you also had kind of a loss on the court. I understand that you suffered an injury pretty soon after that, right?
- [16:33]
Kevin Love
I did. And I, I broke my hand and I only played 18 games that year. And I was, you know, suicidal gestures, suicidal ideation, didn't ever leave my apartment. It was kind of like how I was often growing up. I remember just Being in my room, and I'd go to school, I go to basketball practice, and then I'd just kind of be in there. You know, I looked at my dad as well, not wanting to get out of bed and just kind of lay there, throw the TV on, be in a dark room, sleep often, early and often, you know, go eat at the dinner table, and my mom's just finishing up. I would sit there with her and I'd be like, you know, where's dad?
- [17:07]
Interviewer / Host
And in some ways, this must have been worse because this is now on the professional stage where you're in your room, not coming out, kind of recovering from an injury. I mean, what was it like going through that? Did you talk to anybody about what.
- [17:17]
Dr. Laurie Santos
You were going through?
- [17:18]
Kevin Love
No. No. And my agent, and he always talks to me. He's like, I'm talking to you as your friend. I'm going to talk to you as your agent. But he didn't know how to speak to me. But he would just say, you know, snap out of it. I'm like, oh, I've never thought of that before. Oh, yeah, let me just snap out of it.
- [17:34]
Interviewer / Host
I mean, it's just remarkable how little people get, how mental health issues really work.
- [17:38]
Kevin Love
Yes. But now it's like, you know, my agent, Jeff Schwartz, he has three beautiful daughters who are like, I'm Uncle Kevin now, and I love them that he gets it, and they're athletes. So again, he's evolved and he understands it far more. But in 2013, I wasn't equipped at all to deal with it, and I didn't have the language to express it. And I was just in bed a lot, in a dark room a lot.
- [18:08]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Eventually, Kevin found a way to heal and to share his story with others. But as is often the case, things had to hit rock bottom before they got better. When we get back from the break, I'll talk with Kevin about his very public panic attack and the viral article that detailed his experience. The happiness. We'll be back in a moment. Cooler days call for layers that last, and Quince is my go to for quality essentials that feel cozy, look refined, and won't blow your budget. Think $50, Mongolian cashmere, premium denim that fits like a dream, and luxe outerwear you'll wear year after year. These are the pieces that'll turn into your fall uniform. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish, and effortless. My favorite is Quince's Mongolian cashmere zip up hoodie. I've been wearing that on repeat all autumn long in part because I get so many compliments on it. I'm also kind of obsessed with Quince's tiered maxi dress which has pockets I might add, which is awesome. That's my go to for a put together fall work look. Quince really has become my one stop shop for all my autumn needs from clothes to house stuff. Find your fall staples at Quint's. Go to quints.com Happiness for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quincee.com Happiness to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com Happiness AutoTrader is powered by Auto Intelligence, the hyper personalized way to buy a car. Autotrader's tools sync with your exact budget and preferences to tailor the car shopping experience totally to you. Budgeting lets you input your info to see listings in your price range. Search and inventory helps zero in on your dream car. You can choose from new or pre owned, the style of the car and the features like engine size, color, all the way down to whether you want a trailer hitch. Go ahead and get picky. Don't worry about scrolling endlessly. Autotrader Powered by Auto Intelligence only shows you vehicles based on what you can afford and what you want, and pricing shows you which listings are the best deal so you can feel like you're winning the negotiation without negotiating. You can even choose how to close the deal online at the dealership, or a little of both. Autotrader Powered by Auto Intelligence makes the process of buying a car less of a process. Try it today. Visit autotrader.com to find your perfect ride. Instacart is more than a grocery technology platform, it's a care company designed to make life easier. It connects you to thousands of stores across the United States, giving you time back to focus on what matters most. With just a few taps, you can shop from your favorite stores and have fresh groceries and household essentials ready for pickup or delivered to your door in as little as 30 minutes. Instacart helps take care of delivering some of the things you love so that you're free to take care of life. For me, fall means cozy dinner parties. I love hosting good friends and chatting over my favorite autumn food and drinks. So whether you're carving pumpkins this season or stocking up on cider, or grabbing ingredients for that perfect apple crisp, Instacart can do the picking for you. They help deliver everything right to your door. It's the easiest way to embrace all the cozy moments of the season, so you can spend your time on connection and pumpkins rather than shopping. Instacart brings convenience, quality and ease right to your door so you can focus on what matters most. Download the Instacart app and use code Happiness20 to get $20 off your first order of $80 or more. That's code Happiness20 to get $20 off your first order of $80 or More. Offer valid for a limited time. Excludes restaurants. Additional terms apply.
- [22:04]
Interviewer / Host
And so how did you wind up healing?
- [22:07]
Kevin Love
Well, it wasn't until I really started doing the work, and, you know, I. It's not to say I didn't have these, like, great moments and times when I come out of it, you know, maybe it was three weeks, maybe it was three months of these really dark spells, and my best friends didn't know. But things got so much worse in our 1718 season. You know, that very public panic attack and mental health episode that I know we'll speak about happened. It got a lot worse before it got better. Yeah, sure.
- [22:41]
Interviewer / Host
Yeah. So what happened in that season to make things get worse again?
- [22:45]
Kevin Love
It was unpacking the pressures and expectations of 15 to 20 years and the weight of an organization and ownership and the front office putting pressure that we have to win and win now. And while we love that because it drove us to do these great things, we went to four straight finals from 15 through 18. We won in 2016, first major sports championship in Cleveland. But, you know, I was at that time not speaking to my parents. I was estranged from them. You know, within my. My love life and my personal life, things had, you know, gone wrong as well as always feeling these things and never facing it head on and not going to therapy or having a trusted confidant that I could speak to, I don't think I wanted to admit that there was a problem. I felt like I was a failure of even having these feelings and that idea of masculinity and showing emotion, of course I'd get angry and get a technical foul and that sort of thing. But in terms of saying, like, you know, I'm at home crying or I'm at home and my anxiety is coming up in a way that is severely unhealthy. I just said, like, everybody else has these problems worse than me. And I was comparing grief, but I was also withholding compassion for myself and not having grace within that. And I believe that nobody benefits from that, that it just all bottled up into a moment and it was public and I was on the court it was on tv. I mean, we were a team that had nationally televised games. And you know, I'd had these feelings before, these type of things that happened, but I've always just been able to remove myself from a situation or have like rage fits in my space at home, right? Like it manifested in different ways. I had nowhere to go, so I just ran to the locker room or tried to escape like I always did. But this is around my teammates that were back in the locker room. It was around our trainers. I feel like I'm having cardiac arrest. I can't catch my breath. I can't get oxygen in my brain. I don't. I've never had this type of attack happen before. So is it life threatening? I end up passed out on the floor of our head trainer Steve Spiro's office and he's the one who finds me there. So I end up leaving. After that, they put me on oxygen, I'm able to sit back up, think of myself, what the hell just happened? I go and they run several tests at the Cleveland Clinic, who still is just so amazing, and everything checks out like there's nothing wrong. But I'm asking the question, what just happened then? Is this going to happen again? Who's going to know about it? So it's like this negative feedback loop that I don't know if I'm going to survive professionally. And then how is that going to now impact not only my livelihood, but this safe space that was once the basketball court. So it got a lot worse before it got better. But I think there is a lot of good that came from that. It made me say, okay, things aren't adding up. I need to change something. So it was my first time I had gone to therapy and I was incredibly lucky to find a great therapist. He just sent in my medication this morning, so respect. But I had finally come to terms that, okay, it's time to start doing the work.
- [26:12]
Interviewer / Host
So amazing to hear you talk about this transition to understanding therapy and being more self compassionate because the amazing thing about the oxygen mask that you put on is having put yours on first, you're now able to help others put their oxygen mask on. You know, I know you as an amazing NBA player, but I first got really familiar with you when you became like a huge mental health advocate. Tell me about the article that you put out in 2018, because that was when I first started hearing your name and learning about what you were up to.
- [26:38]
Kevin Love
Right. So fast forward, I go to therapy. I was an all star that year. It's my fifth All Star appearance. And I had a great year, statistically, very efficient, statistically producing at a very high level. And then a couple things happened. I had another attack, Oklahoma City, that I am recently just starting to speak about because, you know, I've had to unpack my team kind of at the time turning on me after that game. I had missed practice the next day, and everybody was like, no, no, no, we need to address this. And I just wasn't ready to expose, like, what I was going through at the time we left for, I think, San Antonio. And again, I felt isolated. My anxiety went absolutely through the roof, and I still had to go out there and compete. And so I felt like I was on an island. And that same trip, we were in Detroit, I broke my hand. So again, the game was taken away from me. I had no outlet. I had nowhere to go. It's like, okay, here again, we're paying this guy all this money. We're supposed to go to the finals. We have no idea what's going on with our teammate. We feel like we can't trust him. I think it was that as well as our media availability. I started getting questions in front of a group about my mental health, and that scared me, and I didn't want anybody to tell my story but me. I had to have it be in my own words. And I told my agent, I wrote this thing, made some adjustments, only wanted to take it so far at that point, because I was scared. I was really scared. I didn't know what this was going to do. Is this going to end everything? Is this going to end my basketball career? And what is pressing Sen going to do? But I think, one, I was just exhausted. I was exhausted, and I was playing this character and putting on this facade. I was just tired of struggling and being in a terrible place, in silence and in the shadows. So press send. And then my life inherently changed forever.
- [28:50]
Dr. Laurie Santos
The article published in 2018 in the Players Tribune was titled Everyone is Going through Something. In it, Kevin acknowledged his mental health struggles, described the panic attack as a turning point in his decision to seek help, and encouraged others facing similar challenges to do the same. The reaction to Kevin's piece was overwhelmingly positive.
- [29:11]
Kevin Love
I would have never expected it. I thought in the comments, people are going to say, like, you're a bitch. And how are these guys going to be able to be with him out there on the court when he knows he struggles with this and is he just going to leave another game? And, I mean, it's primitive. We're so it's ingrained in us psychologically, like to perceive threat first. And I think as athletes, criticism is a, is a tax on success. If we do decide to go through the comments and we want to respond to people and we go through. And it's all these great things and it's like we're relating to people and there's empathy or there's just like, you know, that rah, rah. Like, yes, I love this. Like, this is great. And then it's like, you know, you suck. And we're like, that's the one. But yeah, overwhelmingly positive. I think we had 10,000 plus emails in the first week. We had to create. I mean, my inboxes were full, my texts were full, and then we had to create a separate email because there was just so many people. There were so many people that had reached out and shared their stories, whether it be their firsthand experience with their own mental health or their child's mental health. That was incredibly eye opening. Press send. That morning we had left for a multiple game road trip and us back playing at that point. We meet at the plane, 3pm departure. And I remember just sitting in my seat, throwing my hoodie on, throwing my headphones on. I'm like, what are my teammates gonna think? What are my teammates gonna think? But I remember Kyle Corber coming across the aisle and shaking my hand and just telling me that there's going to be something here. You're going to make a huge difference in people's lives. And that was my first time where my shoulders had just dropped, like, maybe this is going to be okay. We had gone through the flight, I slept and I just like turned to the side towards the window and, you know, acted like I wasn't available. I'm always the first off the plane. I like to just go and get settled on the bus and just sitting there the whole time, like, just get me to my room. The bus stops, everybody gets off. And then it's, you know, LeBron who comes to me, just kind of shakes my hand in like knowing approval and kind of wraps me up in a big hug. And that was, you know, you spend almost more time with your teammates in that space than you do your actual family. So they become family. But that just pushed our friendship and our brotherhood into a new space.
- [31:38]
Interviewer / Host
I mean, you're making it such that any basketball player can be more than a basketball player, right? They can be vulnerable and also they can have an identity beyond it. And I think one of the amazing things is that now, forever, you're Gonna be known not just as an amazing basketball player, but also as an advocate for these important issues. I mean, what does that feel like now? To be kind of to have come from being so scared about talking about this, from such a hyper masculine culture to now being in some ways the face of talking about mental health and supporters?
- [32:05]
Kevin Love
Right. There is a weight to it. But at the same time, just speaking about it gives me levity because I get to be an open book. I'm allowed, I'm empowered to be open.
- [32:15]
Interviewer / Host
You've, like, opened the curtain. You're like curtains open.
- [32:17]
Kevin Love
Yeah, this is who I am and this is what you get. Honestly, if you don't like it, that's your problem. Because my intention is to help the next person and it's just authentic to who I am and it is who I want to be. And I'm not perfect. Like, I think that's the beauty of it, too. It's like with basketball, you can wake up every day and be like, I'm going to get better. You can never get too big to do the little things. You can never get too big to refine your skills. And that's how I feel about what we're doing here in this space. It's going to take a long time, but long term, I think legacy. Naturally, as a basketball player, we'll talk about that word a lot. Legacy. But now I've started to think about, like, legacy virtues versus eulogy. Virtues. There's been deaths, obviously, Brian Wilson, my father. And I think about, what are people going to say when I pass? Are they going to say he broke the NBA and ABA merger for double doubles when he played in his third season? No, no. They're going to talk about how he made people feel. They're going to talk about his relationships. They're going to talk about how he made an impact on other people's lives. I mean, like, sure, they'll touch on basketball, but what my hope is when I get to that point, if I just be my authentic self and be more comfortable in my own skin by exposing these things, that when that time comes, it's going to be more about eulogy than legacy. But my hope would be if I keep living my life with that type of intention, that the universe will unfold as it should.
- [33:49]
Dr. Laurie Santos
So what does living with that kind of intention look like for Kevin today? After the break, we'll talk about how Kevin is trying to break the stigma for the next generation of athletes. The Happiness Lab will be right back. Autotrader is powered by auto intelligence the hyper personalized way to buy a car. AutoTrader's tools sync with your exact budget and preferences to tailor the car shopping experience totally to you. Budgeting lets you input your info to see listings in your price range. Search and inventory helps zero in on your dream car. You can choose from new or pre owned, the style of the car and the features like engine size, color, all the way down to whether you want a trailer hitch. Go ahead and get picky. Don't worry about scrolling endlessly. AutoTrader powered by auto Intelligence only shows you vehicles based on what you can afford and what you want, and pricing shows you which listings are the best deal so you can feel like you're winning the negotiation without negotiating. You can even choose how to close the deal online at the dealership or a little of both. AutoTrader powered by auto Intelligence makes the process of buying a car less of a process. Try it today. Visit autotrader.com to find your perfect ride. What do you want from a fitness solution? Obviously to get in shape, but beyond that, maybe something that keeps you motivated, helps you plan your workouts and really pushes you toward peak performance. That's exactly what the new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus powered by Peloton IQ does. Peloton IQ tracks your progress and even suggests weights that challenge you so you're always building strength. It's legit, intelligent strength coaching and the built in movement tracking camera even counts your reps and gives form feedback. And if you want to switch things up, you can transition from a run on the Tread to strength training, Pilates or yoga just by swiveling the screen. It's so simple and with personalized plans from Peloton iq, you get weekly class recommendations based on your goals, your favorite workout types, and like you, it's literally all based on what works best for you. Personally, it's so great. The new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus is ready when you are. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go Explore the new peloton cross training tread +@onepelaton.com Dr. Laurie Santos here. I've been thinking a lot about a recent trip I took to visit my dad in Arizona. I stayed at an Airbnb in Mesa called Lakefront paradise and honestly, that name was spot on. After a day of exploring the desert botanical garden, it was so nice to come back and sit on the patio and watch the sunset spill across the lake. Their hot tub was the perfect place to unwind, and having a real kitchen meant I could cook a simple dinner Instead of eating out every night, those little comforts made the trip feel less like I was staying in a stranger's place and more like a true home away from home. And as I was sitting there enjoying the view, I had a thought. You know, my home could be an Airbnb. It's a simple and practical way to earn some extra cash that could help you cover the cost of your next trip. Hosting just feels like a smart thing to do. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host when NBA star Kevin Love finally went public about his mental health struggles, the response was overwhelming. It was clear that people were hungry to change the stigma that so many athletes faced. Enter the Kevin Love Fund, a nonprofit dedicated to helping the next generation develop the skills they need to manage mental health challenges.
- [37:37]
Kevin Love
We wanted to support both physical and emotional well being, and we wanted to just keep having these conversations to eliminate the stigma, provide resources, educate as well. And I think that education space is where I look back and coming into high school, all of those expectations, athletics, college, you have to consider those things much younger now, but I know I didn't have the language, but I thought, if we can learn about physical health and sexual health, why aren't we being taught about emotions and mental health? Why aren't we putting this into the classroom? So I thought it would be really meaningful because everybody's going through something that you can't see. How can we implement this into the classroom, starting at that age, and create a curriculum that's modeled around vulnerability? Sarah and Ellie, our educators have done such an incredible job in rounding out this curriculum and continuing to add to it and get it taught in many different countries and many different languages and continuing to grow it. Right now we're working on getting it into the third largest school district in the country, and that's Miami.
- [38:48]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Part of this new curriculum involves prompts designed to help students open up about the things they're struggling with. But teachers get to answer first, modeling what a response looks like and showing that adults are vulnerable, too. I asked Kevin to tell me about an experience from early in the program's development, one that made him realize just how powerful this work could be.
- [39:09]
Kevin Love
The teacher models it. They go around the classroom. And the amazing part about that day was the basketball team and some of the football team was in that classroom. And once we got to them, they were kind of hiding and like, ah, I don't want to share. But we just kept going around and then we got to them and I Remember the first share he had talked about? You know, I come to school to get food and my dad's not around and my mom's having to work with my sisters, and I don't get enough time with her, and she has two jobs. And I'm just like, this is amazing.
- [39:44]
Interviewer / Host
Like, everybody's open in that classroom, right? They get to see each other. They can help each other.
- [39:48]
Kevin Love
And this is an athlete. Like, at that age, I was like, I wasn't doing that. But I just want to tell everybody out there, like, it's a free curriculum. And so this is something that you can integrate into any school. You know, this is a, you know, has potential to really have a huge impact on a kid's life. And it's just early intervention in a time where, you know, in your early teens, you start to really feel what being self conscious is like. I certainly did.
- [40:17]
Interviewer / Host
It's early intervention. But it might also be generational intervention.
- [40:20]
Kevin Love
Yes.
- [40:21]
Interviewer / Host
You know those kids on the football team who started talking about how their food insecurity makes them feel, or that's going to mean that it's easier for them to do it when they have a kid who's on the football team years later.
- [40:30]
Kevin Love
And it just goes to show you, with what I said or what I wrote in that article, is that everybody's going through something that you can't see, right? So let's be compassionate. Let's allow ourselves to be a sounding board. Pay it forward. If you want to use your voice, there is room for generational healing. This kid brought a sign to a game that said, everybody's going through something. And I told our security guard, like, grab him for me. Grab him and his family for me. And he came back and I just spoke to the family, and I started to realize through what they said that you're not just changing the kid's life. You're changing how he's relating with his friends, potentially his team, his teachers, his family, his community. What is changing that one life actually look like? What does it do? I don't know if we can quantify it or it's something that you can measure, but there's a lot of, I think, healing to be had through all that. And it's not just that one person. It has a ripple effect. That is just an amazing thing. And seeing it firsthand is. It's inspiring.
- [41:47]
Interviewer / Host
I remember when your article came out and it got sent to me by, like, tons and tons of my students, and many of my student athletes were like, I'm so happy he Said it because only you, you know, you're an all star. You can say, it can't be somebody who hasn't achieved the things that you did, which is sad. But it just meant so much.
- [42:04]
Kevin Love
We've worked with a lot of student athletes, and it's been amazing. And after they come out of college and they struggle with identity. But how do you help these student athletes and their coaches have these conversations? Because, you know, these colleges or institutions that, you know, now money's involved, it makes it so much more complex. At that age, a kid is even more worried, has even more pressure about, okay, if I expose this or I tell this like, this college isn't going to want me. They're going to take away my scholarship. Yeah, it's not unlike what I had at the. At the highest level, but also, I've already made it. Like, I'm already in this space. I can't imagine the pressures, but also the pain of having to feel like you need to hide that with your coaches or with these people that are potentially going to give you an opportunity of a lifetime. And in high school, that might be the only chance that you have.
- [42:57]
Interviewer / Host
But I think you opening up the conversation means that I think college high school coaches will have the conversation.
- [43:04]
Kevin Love
So that's the. It's like, you know, the teacher models it. It has to be the coaches. I'm very proud to be part of the NBA, who's backed us so much in this and been driving for us, and they'll continue to evolve in this space. But really, the Miami Heat coach Bolstra, Coach Spo, he's so open to these conversations, and sometimes he'll just bring it in and be like, blackout day. Nobody come in, get some sun, get some vitamin D. It's good for you. Right? Spend time with your families, play the long game, because we need that. It's an unforgiving league. So when he models that, and he's one of the greatest coaches of all time. And we have Dr. Derek Anderson, who's our licensed therapist on staff. He's amazing. So that also gives me hope that that will then trickle down to college athletes as well as high school athletes. And there's always going to be exceptions to the rule. There's going to be people that aren't open to this. But, you know, vulnerability is superpower strength.
- [44:02]
Interviewer / Host
Well, it also raises the question of, like, what's actually gonna make you play better? And we could say play better on the court that night, but also play better, you know, having a long a career of longevity with injuries where you don't, you know, blow yourself up and get canceled on social media because you're so angry. Right. I mean, I think we really need to have a conversation of whether or.
- [44:21]
Kevin Love
Not it could be a better product.
- [44:23]
Interviewer / Host
Well, I think even just, you know, in terms of like, physical performance, we figured that out. You know, people get rest days, you know, you take breaks. Right. I think we've come to realize that the body is not just this crazy machine that you push, push, push.
- [44:35]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Right.
- [44:36]
Interviewer / Host
I think when we come to think about people's mental health, their human performance side of things, we probably need to be a little bit more compassionate there too. And ultimately, like, the result will be better off. Thank you so much for all the great work that you're doing. And where can folks learn more about the Kevin Love Fund?
- [44:52]
Kevin Love
Kevinlovefund.org and thank you as well for being an ally. I always say, like, we're tribal beings, we should start acting like it. And we are part of a tribe together. This is community driven. We all want to be on the winning side of history, but I think it's all hope.
- [45:10]
Dr. Laurie Santos
I hope we're finally at the beginning of a mental health revolution. But there's still lots of work that each of us can do to fight the stigma. First, as Kevin's viral article put it, remember, everyone is going through something, and a little compassion can go a very long way. So if you're a teacher or a coach or a parent or a leader, it's vital that you model vulnerability to the people who look up to you and give yourself a little compassion, too. By doing so, we can help the next generation break the cycle and feel safe having tough conversations openly. The Happiness Lab will soon be back with a spooktacular Halloween episode. We'll be exploring the connection between fear and joy. We'll speak to a behavioral scientist who's studying why certain people just love to be scared. All that next time on the Happiness lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos. Military life isn't predictable, but earning your master's degree can be. With American Military University's 40 + flexible online master's programs, you can stay mission ready while you get market ready. Learn anywhere, anytime, with an education built to keep pace steady, reliable and always accessible. Plus, military service members, veterans and their families can save up to 45% on master's tuition with AMU's special rates and grants. Learn more at AMU APUS. Edu AMU study through every mission. Having something to look forward to is a proven mood booster. And what better thing to look forward to than a vacation to Rhode Island. In the Ocean State, you'll find a cuisine for every taste, amazing shopping, breathtaking natural scenery, and accommodations that won't break the bank. Treat yourself to a little bit of happiness and start looking forward to an unforgettable trip today. Rhode Island all that Plan your getaway at visitroadiland.com that's visitroadiland.com youm've spent a lot of time chasing happiness, but what if something is silently holding you back? That's why I'm a fan of questhealth.com youm can buy your own lab tests online, no doctor visit required. Choose from over 100 different tests, from hormones to nutrition and so much more. After you buy a test online, just visit a nearby quest location for sample collection and get results online fast. And for a limited time, you can save on select lab tests@questhealth.com when you use code Happiness10 at checkout.
- [47:46]
Interviewer / Host
Terms apply. This is an iHeart podcast.