Podcast Summary: "Take a Three-Day Weekend Without Losing Any Pay"

The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos (Pushkin Industries)
Guest: Juliet Schor (author of "Four Days: The Life-Changing Solution for Reducing Employee Stress, Improving Well-Being and Working Smarter")
Release Date: September 29, 2025

Episode Overview

Dr. Laurie Santos sits down with economist and sociologist Juliet Schor to discuss her groundbreaking research on the four-day workweek – specifically, whether companies can reduce work hours without cutting pay and still maintain (or even improve) productivity and employee well-being. Together, they dispel myths about America's "work ethic," trace the roots of current overwork, and explore real-world cases where companies and employees have thrived by shifting to a 32-hour week. This episode unpacks the emotional, behavioral, and business impacts of a shorter workweek and offers practical advice for employees and employers intrigued by the idea.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The History and Myth of Overwork in America

Timestamps: 02:13–12:28

• Historical context: The notion that Americans have always worked excessively is inaccurate; the U.S. once led the world in reducing work hours, especially up until the 1970s–80s, when hours began to creep up again (10:13).
  • Juliet Schor: "We were the first to get a five day week. We had lower working hours than many countries... And then we start to diverge... big divergence with Europe." (10:13)
• Early labor unions fought to introduce the two-day weekend now seen as normal.
• "Ideal Worker Norm": The toxic idea that workers should put their jobs before family or personal interests—a norm that exacerbates gender inequality and stress (12:40).
  • Schor: "It's the idea that the ideal worker is the one who puts the job first, always, and family or a person's own passions... come second." (12:40)
• Technology and "always on" culture (smartphones, emails after hours, increased global coordination) have stretched the workday even more (08:12).

2. Pandemic Shifts: Why the Four-Day Week Gained Traction

Timestamps: 14:37–17:59

• COVID-19 led to unprecedented worker stress and forced companies to experiment with remote work and flexible arrangements, which made the idea of a four-day week suddenly plausible to many employers (14:48).
  • Schor: "Employers... never thought work from home could work and suddenly everything's okay, work from home is working. And so their minds are kind of opening up..."
• The "Great Resignation" spurred companies to seek ways to retain staff and lower stress—prompting real-world trials of the four-day week.

3. Defining the Four-Day Workweek

Timestamps: 18:06–19:28

• Not "four tens," but 32 hours at full pay: The standard model (180,100) maintains 100% pay and 100% productivity for 80% of the time. Some variations (180,80) simply give time off because workers are so burned out, not expecting full productivity in return.
  • Schor: "The radical solution is a four day week, not four tens... four eight hour days. So it's a 32 hour work week, no reduction in pay." (18:06)
• Trials involve extensive onboarding and process change to ensure productivity is maintained.

4. Research Design and Outcomes

Timestamps: 21:25–24:45; 28:21–31:00

• Massive trial: Over 400 companies and 11,000+ employees worldwide participated in pilot programs.
• Studies involved rigorous before-and-after surveys on well-being, interviews, and company data on turnover, productivity, etc.
• Key finding: No increase in second-job holding, minimal uptick in intensity. Instead, significant improvements in well-being, including burnout, stress, sleep, mental health, and satisfaction with family and personal life.
  • Schor: "69% of people who go through these trials have lower levels of burnout in six months than they did at the baseline." (28:21)
• Employees overwhelmingly described the change as "life-changing," "transformational," and "the best thing ever." (30:21)
  • Quote: "But of course this is so much better than a five day week." (30:48)

5. Emotional & Behavioral Changes for Employees

Timestamps: 31:09–35:32

• Extra time is largely used for leisure and hobbies, exercise, social connection, rest, and family—rather than side hustles.
• Employees report feeling more productive, engaged, and less anxious at work; the "Sunday scaries" and midweek burnout dissipate.
  • Schor: "They have energy levels and motivation and it shows up in their self reports of productivity and workability." (35:32)
• Company culture is fundamentally transformed, shifting the burden off individuals and onto the organization to reduce excessive workload and stigma.

6. Why Does the Four-Day Week Work When Other "Wellness" Initiatives Fail?

Timestamps: 32:48–34:57

• Most wellness programs add tasks to already-packed schedules; the four-day week actually gives time back and attacks the root causes of burnout.
  • Schor: "There's a sense in which some of those wellness things... just puts one more thing on their plate. Now they may work for some, but also... they're small things. So number one is a huge block of time. And number two, it gives people what they need..." (32:48)

7. Business Outcomes: Benefits for Companies

Timestamps: 42:29–58:03

• Models that work:
  • 180,100: Companies use process reengineering, eliminate unnecessary meetings, and optimize focus time to sustain productivity levels in fewer hours.
  • 180,80: In high-burnout sectors (restaurants, healthcare), simply reducing hours produces better retention, improved service quality, and saves on costly turnover.
    • Schor: "You had a group of companies that I called 180, 80... They're not expected to do more than 80% of the work. So they work at their normal pace on those four days, but they get an extra day..."
• Industries: While white-collar firms, tech, and professional services dominate, successes are seen in manufacturing, healthcare, restaurants, nonprofits, and even some large social service organizations.
• Retention & loyalty: Turnover plummets, employee referrals up, and employers can even market their stability to clients for business advantage.
  • Schor: "They also feel more loyal to their jobs. They value their jobs more. This gets to why people in four day week companies don't quit. They almost never quit." (37:51)
• Some companies even reported productivity increased beyond prior levels; 180,125, as Schor jokes.

8. Is This the Future? How to Make It Happen

Timestamps: 58:03–63:06

• Schor is optimistic: “I think we're going to be close to that in 10 [years].” (58:23)
• AI and ongoing productivity changes make adoption even more feasible.
• Advice for employees: Educate yourself, start conversations with coworkers and managers, and use the growing business case as your lever. Don’t assume it’s impossible—executives are much more open to discussion since the pandemic.
  • Schor: "Don't assume that it's a non starter, don't assume that it's impossible where you work." (60:01)
• Applies across all demographics: "It really is, you know, four for all." (62:07)
  • Works in remote, hybrid, and in-person environments.
  • Particularly strong benefits recorded for people with disabilities, parents, managers and non-managers alike.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On American work history:
  • "It's a pretty recent phenomenon of the US becoming... a long hours country." —Juliet Schor [11:20]
• On employee reactions:
  • "Life changing. I mean, some people would say game changing, but life changing, transformational. Best thing ever. Very superlative even." —Juliet Schor [30:21]
• On burnout:
  • "One of the main symptoms of burnout is what she [Christina Maslach] calls a Sense of personal ineffectiveness." —Dr. Laurie Santos [37:13]
• On real business impact:
  • "For many, it's actually something that's going to... really help your company as opposed to something that you'll just be okay if you do it." —Juliet Schor [57:13]
• On the feasibility and future:
  • "I think we're going to be close to that [four-day weeks] in 10 [years]." —Juliet Schor [58:23]
• On implementation advice:
  • "Don't assume that it's a non-starter... Survey data... shows that something like close to a third of all senior executives have been saying they're interested in a four day week..." —Juliet Schor [60:01]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Historical Workweek Context/Myths: 02:13–12:28
• Pandemic Shifts and Openness to Four-Day Weeks: 14:37–17:59
• Defining the Modern Four-Day Workweek (180,100 model): 18:06–19:28
• Trial Design and Wellbeing Results: 21:25–31:00 (employees); 42:29–58:03 (businesses)
• Emotional & Behavioral Changes: 31:09–35:32
• Behavioral Mechanisms/Company Approaches: 49:49–54:23
• Advice and Implementation: 58:03–63:06

Conclusion

Juliet Schor’s research compellingly demonstrates that shorter workweeks can simultaneously enhance employee well-being and company productivity, debunking long-held myths about overwork. The four-day workweek—properly implemented and supported by organizational change, not just isolated individual effort—delivers transformative benefits across industries, demographics, and work modalities. For employees and leaders, the message is: change is possible, evidence-based, and already underway.

For more, see Juliet Schor’s book: "Four Days: The Life-Changing Solution for Reducing Employee Stress, Improving Well-Being and Working Smarter."