← The Hardcore Self-Help Podcast with Duff the Psych
The Hardcore Self-Help Podcast with Duff the Psych
430: The Truth About Recovery with Dr. Mala
00:54:37
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- [00:00]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
I think people think that rehabilitation, recovery in general, addiction especially, is this linear. You know, you go through the thing, the program, and then you're cured. You know, I believe that that belief is still very alive. And in the dialogue of family members and loved ones and even the person going through, you know, their own recovery journey, there's a fear in, in facing one's emotions. I believe, you know, people get scared of it. And I want to say this, and that is if you face your emotions, you're actually making yourself stronger. So in facing the reality of your emotions and the nuances of your emotions, you're only empowering yourself to be steadfast on your recovery journey. I used to take my clients out. We would walk, we would go on hikes. So it was basically like the beginnings of, you know, adventure therapy. It's so important to know that isolation is fill in the blank, diagnosis is friend, and that if you find yourself becoming more isolative, that that's a sign that you need help, that there, you've got to find connection again, and there, there is healing to be had with connection. Everyone is recovering from something and. And yeah, that reinforces that comment of you alone, because statistically, you actually are not alone. And I can't say this loud enough too, because we're all recovering from something. It's time for us to break the stigma around talking about it. Let's talk about it. Let's be real, let's be authentic.
- [02:03]
Dr. Robert Duff
Hey, friends. This is the hardcore self help podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Robert Duff, and today I have an amazing interview for you. My guest today is the incredible Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri, or Dr. Mala for short. She is a renowned leader in recovery care, and she currently serves as the chief clinical officer at Recovery.com, where she develops unbiased educational resources for individuals seeking addiction and mental health treatment. With over 20 years of experience spanning traumatic brain injury, PTSD, military psychology, marriage and family therapy, and integrated program development, Dr. Mala has worked with all sorts of people, from military members to executives, athletes, couples, and families. Her work is a unique blend of Western psychology with Eastern philosophy, and she offers innovative approaches to recovery that challenge the traditional one size fits all model. In our conversation today, we dive into her insights about the evolving landscape of recovery treatment, outside the box therapies, and why finding the right treatment can be so challenging for some. If you or somebody you love has struggled to find the right support and recovery, this episode is for you. Please don't forget you can send me an email to duffthesecmail.com with any questions for the show, topic suggestions or guests you'd like me to talk to.
- [03:13]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
If you haven't yet, I would really.
- [03:15]
Dr. Robert Duff
Really appreciate your rating and review on any podcast platform. And if you're on YouTube, give this a thumbs up. And without further ado, enjoy the interview.
- [03:24]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Okay, everyone, I'm super excited to have a guest today. I have Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri. I got a little coaching session to make sure I said it right beforehand. How did I do?
- [03:33]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
You did perfectly. Okay.
- [03:35]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
And what would you prefer for me to call you as we're. As we're talking today?
- [03:39]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Mala. Dr. Mala. That's how people know me. Yeah. Yeah.
- [03:42]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Awesome. Well, Mala, thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciate your time.
- [03:46]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Of course, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.
- [03:50]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
So I want to talk with you about your focus. You know, addiction recovery, what do we need to know about you to understand how you came into that world? And also just sort of psychology, broadly. What. What led you that direction?
- [04:03]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah, yeah. Well, I've always had a passion for helping people. When I was a little girl, I always wanted to be a doctor. And I pursued that dream and very quickly, long story short, got into an accelerated program, started to make rotations, and then got in trouble for talking to people longer than five minutes.
- [04:27]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
That sounds about right.
- [04:29]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah. Yeah. So that's basically what kind of thrust me in the direction of psychology. And my first go at it was biopsychology and cognitive sciences. And I was just absolutely enthralled by, you know, the connection of the mind and the body and being able to like, actually use that in day to day for treatment purposes. Oh, my goodness. I was, I was, you know, very, very overjoyed to have found that field. So, yeah, I mean, that just took me down my path of continued education, master's doctorate, you know, the whole thing. And along the way, I just continued to diversify in my specialties and really found a passion for just rehabilitation and recovery. And I was in being brought up in the field during a time when integrative work was not really spoken of or emphasized. It was very compartmentalized and separate. And, you know, forget about eastern philosophy, because that's woo woo, you know, that kind of a thing. So when I came into residential facilities and started doing work in those types of environments, IOPS, you know, PHPs, residential, etc. I really pushed hard to get alternative as well, was considered alternative as well as integrative treatment. To be part of our programming. And I found a really big passion for it and as a result, just pursued that. You know, I really loved it. Put myself in the throes of it. Really wanted to define integration for myself as a practitioner and, you know, was passionate about bringing that to every space that I was in. So that's kind of how I got involved in this space. Yeah.
- [06:27]
Dr. Robert Duff
Gotcha.
- [06:29]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
So you have always gotten in a little bit of trouble, regardless of what field you're in. It sounds like you've always wanted to push a little bit more to be what feels more holistic to you or what feels more person appropriate. Where does that come from? Have you always been that way in every way?
- [06:46]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah. Well, I would probably say yes, I think just in childhood. So I do have a history of abuse and trauma that started in childhood. And once that chapter ended, then I ended up in another situation that was abusive, unfortunately. And I had to do my own recovery for those instances. I've had other traumas as well, workplace trauma and so on and so forth. Not@recovery.com but. So trauma and PTSD related to that has been part of my journey for sure. I really, when I went through what I went through, right. I knew that I would have to develop what I needed for myself because I was different. You know, I'm not the same as you. I'm not the same as Jane Smith, you know, whatever. And our needs are going to be varied. And I really, really said, well, nothing is comprehensive around me that's going to be able to do that. So I have to build this for myself. And I started to pull from things that I had as coping mechanisms and tools growing up in childhood. So even though despite there. There's trauma going on, despite all of the discord that happened because of that, I had these beautiful tools around me that included dance and art and meditation and yoga and even just my want to connect with people. Right. Was very, very prominent from childhood. And that is what made me realize that I had to advocate for myself. And then later on, as I grew professionally, I was like, well, I'm advocating for myself. I'm advocating for the person next to me. I'm advocating for the community that I'm in. I'm advocating for the world. And that's where the passion developed, and that's where that want to be like, yeah, I'm definitely going to push against the grain and to make these things happen. Solidified. Yeah.
- [08:59]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate the honest look at your background and stuff. It obviously comes from A very honest place. And it would have to, because you kind of had to start over right after medical school, after starting to do rotations, then you're like, okay, let me go to a master's and a PhD.
- [09:15]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah. Yeah.
- [09:16]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Holy cow, that's too much school.
- [09:17]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah, it's a lot of school. I loved it, though. I mean, I don't think when I was going through it. I don't know how you feel, but, you know, when I was going through it, I was like, this is just fun, just all education, you know, let's just learn, learn, learn, learn, learn. So I reveled in being able to soak it up.
- [09:34]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Yeah. You talked about one of your passions being rehabilitation. And from looking at a little bit of your background, it sounds like that's related to addiction medicine. But not only that, like, you have a broader passion for rehabilitation. Can you talk about that a bit?
- [09:48]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah, absolutely. So I actually decided to start my treatment in rehabilitation journey with traumatic brain injury. And again, at the time, and I would argue that it's still not prominently known, I think we talk about it more, but people don't really pay attention to it. At the time, it was not well known at all, the industry. So I started with traumatic brain injury. And of course, with traumatic brain injury comes a whole bunch of other comorbidities, addiction being one of them. And that was part of, again, why I advocated for integrative approaches, because you're not going to just hit all of the things with one treatment modality. So, yeah, I started with traumatic brain injury, and that is still a population that I'm very passionate about serving. That also grew into my work with the military. I did five years with them, not as an active duty member myself, but as a citizen. And basically, again, throughout private practice history, I had worked with the military population. But this was just another way to have that concentrated work time with them. And my department was pain management, tbi. And then I was affiliated with the psychology department, which was living, like, right above us. So it was really wonderful, again, to look at that integrative approach and advocate for them to have integrated programming, truly integrated programming, which is something that they really don't focus on and they weren't.
- [11:36]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
What does that mean? Like, tell people. Listening kind of what that means. Integrative, and how that's not usually considered.
- [11:42]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Right, right. So my definition of integrated treatment is not just having separate modalities or treatments. For example, having a psychologist or psychotherapeutic sessions and then having physical therapy and then having, you know, chiropractic work or acupuncture or massage therapy or whatever, you know, like all of these different options just be separate treatments that you're going through to help you heal, but rather that those providers and those treatment plans for each of those modalities are going to be talking to each other. Those individuals will talk to each other and that they will create a comprehensive treatment plan that can be followed across the board for that one individual. Okay, so that's, that's my version of.
- [12:32]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Sounds utopian to me.
- [12:33]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yes, it does. No, it is and it is to a large degree it still is. But I'm so proud to say that, you know, in the facilities that I've been able to work with and work at, we were able to get there. It was, it's a lot, it takes a lot of work, but we were able to get there. And especially with the military, proud moment. You know, we, we actually proposed to Congress to have the integrated approach be the standard protocol, especially for pain management and traumatic brain injury. And it passed. So we were, it was really, that was a huge, monumental effort. Lots of work, lots of passion, lots of hours. And you know, a global project, to say the least. That, that worked beautifully. So very proud of that. So, yeah, it is utopian, unfortunately, in, I would say like the everyday world, you know, the non military world as well. And I would also argue that not all military facilities provide that yet. You know, we talk about it, but there's so many barriers that come up. Cost, access, you know, accessibility, so on and so forth. That does make it utopian.
- [13:48]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Yeah, yeah. But what you're saying makes a lot of sense that the need to push for that integration. So my background, I'm a neuropsychologist, so I work with a lot of people with traumatic brain injuries or other things like that. And yeah, somebody who has traumatic brain injury and has fallen into addiction partially because of that is a very different person to deal with than somebody who got into it by other means. So. And then you add other things, of course, you know, race, gender, what have you on top of that. And there's just so many intersections.
- [14:18]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yes, yes, absolutely. And that, you know, you mentioned race, gender, etc. Like culturally competent care is another one. I think that we are needing to work on a little bit more, especially now as we're finding our voices to define not just the culture of our, our background, but the culture that we're choosing to live in for ourselves and that we're creating for ourselves and have that be understood, you know, and be reflected as Part of our treatment plan and our care, you know, the care that we need to be able to recover is very important.
- [14:54]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
So, yeah, I imagine a lot of people listening to this are hearing all of these potential amazing things and thinking, well, no wonder I haven't really been able to find something good for myself. No wonder I haven't made a lot of progress. So I appreciate the work that you're doing. If I could back up a little bit, what are some things that you think people, or broadly, we just still don't understand very well about addiction and recovery?
- [15:20]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah, I think people think that rehabilitation, recovery in general, addiction especially, is this linear. You know, you go through the thing, the program, and then you're cured. You know, I believe that that belief is still very alive. And in the dialog of family members and loved ones and even the person going through, you know, their own recovery journey, I think at the beginning there might be that thought process of like, okay, if I do this, then I'll be done. I'll just get it done and over with and that's it. Right. Which, of course, as we know, is not how it works. It doesn't Instagram, though. It doesn't Instagram TikTok, right? Yeah. Yeah. Social media reinforces that for sure. And that's a lot of the work that we're trying to do even@recovery.com is try to navigate around that thought process. But it's not a linear journey. It is one that is going to be up and down and it will be very multifaceted and. And I think people don't realize that that's okay, that's needed, you know, because when you reach a milestone in your recovery journey, that's not the be all, end all. You're going to go through it. You're going to revel in having reached that milestone. And then it's about getting to the next one and to the next one and to the next one, and the hurdles that you may face or the emotional processing that might need to occur as a result, or both is part of that journey, and it's necessary. And there's a fear in. In facing one's emotions. I believe, you know, people get scared of it. And I want to say this, and that is if you face your emotions, you're actually making yourself stronger. So in. In facing the reality of your emotions and the nuances of your emotions, you're only empowering yourself to be steadfast on your recovery journey. And I can't sing that song loud enough. You know, I think it's time for us to really be genuine and transparent and not have fears with regards to facing our emotions for ourselves, but also talking about them and, you know, sharing them with others.
- [17:47]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
In your experience, is a lot of what leads to addiction related to that kind of avoidance, whether it's purposeful or not.
- [17:55]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Mm, yeah. Yeah. I think the stigma, that belief, you know, of the. The if this isn't going to be a linear path and I'm not in it, you know, or the fear of expressing oneself and actually being real and genuine with the community, our family, you know, the community at large around us, is what prevents us from getting there. Right. That. That fear that what are people gonna think of me? How am I gonna be perceived? You know, like, how am I gonna face this for myself? You know, if other people see me a certain way, then how is that gonna change my life? Right. All of these things, I think, stand in the way. Yeah.
- [18:42]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
That points to the necessity of the integrated approach more with therapy, you know, the psychological side as well as the medical side, et cetera. Right. You need to be able to approach in multiple ways.
- [18:55]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that awareness and understanding that there's various treatment options to help you access and also overcome the fears related to being on any recovery journey, I think is something that can leave people really confused and. And overwhelmed, and it makes it harder for them to take that really crucial first step. So, again, @recovery.com this is recovery.com like our website. I'm not saying this just because I work there. I would be saying this, you know.
- [19:26]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
In general, you work there for a reason, right?
- [19:28]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah, yeah, 100%. I wish I had this resource, like, 20 years ago, you know, because the whole purpose of it is to connect people to treatment effectively. You know, that suits them and with full transparency. So, you know, we have resources there, articles, you know, we have a podcast ourselves, a couple of podcasts now, all to be able to give people those tools to understand, what does this mean? You know, how do I get to treatment? What does treatment mean for me? How can I start that journey and really get them there? Right. And then we have lots of treatment centers around the world that are accessible for people to explore and figure out, okay, this might be the right one for me. So I really wish I had that tool 20 years ago. And I am there, absolutely, because I love the mission, and that is to connect people to treatment, to connect family members with support as well, and then make that gap. Bridge that gap that. That exists.
- [20:36]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Yeah, Yeah. I was going to ask you about ways that because you've been in this field for a while now, I was going to ask you about ways that the field has changed since you started to now access online. Definitely seems like one of those things.
- [20:50]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yes. Yeah. So excited about that. So I actually went virtual for myself in 2014. I did it like well before the pandemic. I was actually teaching also online in 2004. So I started, I was really, you know, into that world and I loved it because what did that mean? We could access people, we could make, you know, education, we could make therapy accessible, healing accessible. So the, of course, as we've heard, you know, the beautiful thing with the pandemic is it made it even more of a reality and expedited, you know, our access of technology for the purpose of healing. So I love that that's happening right now. Virtual services are a real thing. Excuse me. They're effective, you know, and one of my passions, of course, is that accessibility to care. Breaking down those barriers, like that's a reality. Another passion project of mine was providing access to care to rural environments and also not just for treatment purposes, but to educate individuals and things like mental health, first aid and coaching, recovery coaching certifications in those rural areas so that they could serve their communities without having to break the bank, without having to, you know, compromise leaving. You know, maybe a tight knit community or a culture that doesn't always allow for that ease of leaving and love doing that, love being involved with that big, big passion of mine.
- [22:45]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's great. Another area where you kind of push the boundaries.
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Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah, yeah.
- [22:50]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
And I can relate. So in you said 2014, you went virtual around that time is when I was starting my dissertation work, which was online psychotherapy.
- [22:59]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Lovely, Wonderful. Yeah.
- [23:01]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
So you probably noticed some of the stuff that I found in that, which is like certain people who might not otherwise be open in, in person treatment actually find a place in online treatment.
- [23:13]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Hundred percent, 100%. You know, like the, and it does help with breaking that fear. You know, the fear factor is like, I can tiptoe and try this a little bit, you know, and, and see if I like it and then go from there. And you know what, that's good. That's a first start. So. Yeah, 100%. And I, I'm hoping that your dissertation findings showed that.
- [23:37]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Yeah, yeah, it was sort of like what sort of people. It was a simple project, but what sort of people prefer those modalities to in person? And it was basically science of duh, you know, it's what you would Expect people with stronger social anxiety, people with more, they feel more averse to helping, getting help and things like that. And it really does help break down those barriers. So yes, I am also glad, like I was already doing stuff online then covet happened like, see? Told you.
- [24:03]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah, yeah, exactly. The told you so factor. Yep, yep, yep. I love that. That's great by the way. The duh factor. I love that.
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Podcast Host / Interviewer
Yeah, yeah. Science of duh.
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Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
That's ye.
- [24:14]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
But it needs to be in the literature, so, you know, it's like, might as well do it. So what are, what are some of the things that, that you use as integration? What are some of the things that people don't think about when it comes to rehabilitation and recovery?
- [24:29]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah, so originally, like I said way back when, when I started in the field, I started with breath work and yoga and started to integrate that into a pediatric program, you know, with kids. And the other one that was newer at the time also was being able to break the barriers of traditional talk therapy, where you're sitting couch to couch, you know, and across from each other and going from there. I used to take my clients out, we would walk, we would go on hikes. So it was basically like the beginnings of, you know, adventure therapy.
- [25:08]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
People think that's illegal for some reason. Why they think you're not allowed to do that.
- [25:13]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yes, that was, that was actually part of the language too, is like because of the liabilities with the residential program. So it was an issue that we had to overcome, but we overcame it because it was showing the benefits. You know, we had so many, the efficacy was so great. So that's where I started. Right. And then as I started to come through, you know, like my, the years and all of these modalities started to become more accessible. The thought process was, well, how about working, doing like co therapeutic sessions, right? So if somebody is having anxiety during their physical therapy appointment, then why can't their support as their therapist be there with them to walk them through and model their coping mechanisms so that then you could, you know, separate out and then they can handle it themselves. And that worked beautifully. It was great.
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Podcast Host / Interviewer
I can imagine.
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Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
It was so good.
- [26:15]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
I'm jealous of that. I'd be like, I had somebody that worked for a long time that was trying to relearn how to walk and he was in a care facility and I couldn't get there to do that. But I can just imagine how useful it would have been to be able to in vivo work all together on this issue.
- [26:30]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yep, yep, yep. So, and then I was able, again, that's another, like, win for me is that I was able to take that approach to the military when I did work with them. And specifically for pain management, you know, having, first of all, having an active duty member actually say and admit that they're in pain is a big deal. Okay. So that, that's a big deal. But then you introduce the idea of procedures for them, you know, if that's part of their treatment planning and there's fear, you know, like, wait a second, I'm going to be awake during what procedure while you do what, you know, that kind of a thing. So, you know, it was, it was a joy for me to be able to do that in vivo approach with our active duty members as well and help them through procedures that they would have otherwise been very nervous about. Yeah.
- [27:24]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
So what else? I kind of jumped in there. But yeah, when it comes to more things that you find yourself integrating now into treatment or what people are.
- [27:33]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah. So honestly, you know, like the accessibility to all of those modalities. So whether it's yoga, meditation, my other concept, which is a big one of actually going against the word balance, because balance implies kind of this tightrope mentality. Right. I've got a, I've got this pressure of trying to make sure that everything is even on every side. So my new concept is not looking at it from looking at life from a balanced perspective, but from a synergistic perspective. And the concept of synergy and what that means to you, what that means to me, and how we can customize our lives around what we define as synergy, you know, is something that I really like to work on with people and that, that speak, you know, talking about life holistically has become a really big part of the work that I do as well. So it's, it's definitely looking at like the, the, the plethora of tools that now we've got a lot, we've got adventure therapy, we got play therapy, we got art therapy, we got all these beautiful modalities and saying, guess what? You can do it. And if you can't find access to care because of insurance issues or out of pocket issues or whatever, we can make that yours. Right. You can integrate the components of that into your own synergistic plan and we'll make that accessible. We'll work through that. We'll take the baby steps to make that happen. So that's a big part of what I do now as well. Yeah.
- [29:20]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
What are some of the things that may be surprising to Hear that people have integrated, that have played a big role in their recovery.
- [29:27]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
That's a good question. Surprising. I wouldn't, I don't, I don't think there has been anything that's been terribly surprising or unique that I've bumped into personally, you know, personally and my work. Because I think one thing that comes to mind is like cultural differences. Right. And so within a culture, if there are tools or, you know, practices that they have accessible to them. Right. That that will then become their version of an art therapy. Right. Or an expressive therapy. So not surprising, but rather like, this is neat that, you know, like I wouldn't have thought of, you know, doing open movement. Let's just say I'm saying this, this is an example, but like open movement, you know, at a, at a bonfire, you know, like as something that was accessible, you know, for me, because I can't pitch a bonfire in my yard, you know, and do movement therapy. But maybe they can and they are, and that works beautifully for them, you know. So the other one that I wouldn't say is a surprise, but people take for granted is the inclusion of pet therapy and pets and animals and just the beautiful function of having an animal who can be there with you and just the simple, you know, stroking of the fur and, you know, sitting on the lap and the purrs, you know, like, I think people for granted and I think more often than not this would be a surprise. It isn't until we talk through it and we get there, I'm like, that works for you. That feels good. You need to do that more.
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Podcast Host / Interviewer
And they're like, ah, that's a legitimate tool.
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Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
That's a legitimate tool. Right. So I think that sometimes comes as a surprise to me.
- [31:30]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
But yeah, and there's some research on that. Right. In terms of the regulating effect. 100% petting an animal where we've kind of co. Evolved in that way.
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Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah, yeah, yep, absolutely.
- [31:47]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Where? So, so let's say that somebody is looking for help. They've tried some things before, but maybe it's been very narrow and hasn't worked. How can someone begin to start working in a way that's more consistent with what you're talking about? What works here?
- [32:05]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah, yeah, that's the one size fits all approach. Right. To most recovery journeys is, you know, there's so many places and programs that kind of fall into that line of thinking. So what I advocate is for people to be. Think about some categories, think about your number one, your individual differences, what are your specific needs, what makes you Kind of diverse your background, diverse your experiences and think about what it is that you want to tap into from that that is needing not only to be understood, but potentially even utilized. So recognize those individual differences for yourself. Maybe even write them down, you know, like, this is what I need. This is who I am. You know, like, this is who I don't know I am. You know, like, I need to figure this out about myself and get that down on paper, journal it, voice record it, whatever, and identify that. Then of course, if you've gone through any type of like, diagnostics and you have disorders, right, that have been given to you as a diagnosis, sure, you can research them, understand, you know, try to understand the complexity of the disorders. But I'm going to put an asterisk by that and say, don't go down that Google rabbit hole of oh, no, you know, if I have this, then I have this, then I have this, then I have this. You know, like, how am I going to handle all this? Have the conversations with a provider and get educated about them for sure. Even if you're not ready to talk to a provider necessarily, another really interesting approach is talking to a professor, talking to an instructor who is, specializes in this field, okay. And get information from them about, just about what, what it is, right? So be careful with, with trying to research the complexity of disorders, but do the research and talk to the person that is the special who specializes in, you know, said area engagement, okay? And this is often where the fear factor comes in. And that's what I was talking about. Like, to find out more information, talk to the specialists in the field, talk to the professors, and allow yourself to just try to engage in baby steps that way, to start creating a sense of connection first and foremost with yourself, saying, I am doing this for me, I'm advocating for myself by doing this. And then later on that connection, that want for connection can also be healing and is so important as part of the recovery journey and will expand to other forms of connection that can be helpful like groups and, you know, what have you. So engagement and advocating for yourself for personalized care. Again, going back to step number one where you were essentially saying, okay, this is what I need, this is who I am, this is what I need to figure out. And letting that be something that is a baseline for you as you enter into your recovery journey and singing that song to all of your providers or to your one provider and saying, this is what I need, help me and advocate for that personalized career that those big things, those big steps is What I always suggest to people in terms of getting going, getting started, and trying to overcome those barriers, and if somebody.
- [35:59]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Finds themselves in a situation where they're getting treatment and it just doesn't feel like it's doing the trick or it's insufficient, what do you suggest in those cases?
- [36:11]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
It's totally fine to get recommendations for other people. And whether you're doing that with the provider who's sitting in front of you and saying, you know what, like, this is what I am feeling like I'm not getting. I need some help in maybe having that open, not maybe. I highly recommend having that open conversation with whoever your provider is and allowing your provider also that space to say, you know what? That's outside of my specialty, actually. Maybe it would be a good fit for you to try xyz. Right. So having those conversations with whoever is working with you, and if there's resistance there, then absolutely do your research, you know, and then maybe ask another provider or a friend or somebody else if you're in any groups, you know, if there are people who might be well suited for the personalized needs that you feel are not getting met. Yeah. So advocating for that, for sure, you should definitely, to the audience, you should definitely, you know, be. Be open and transparent with those needs so that if the person who is sitting in front of you isn't meeting them, you can talk about it and then find the right person for you and that. That's okay. Yeah.
- [37:29]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
And if they don't feel comfortable to have that conversation, if they're not made to feel comfortable to have those sorts of conversations, maybe that is also a sign that it's not. Maybe it's not fit.
- [37:39]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
The best fit. Yeah, no, this is. And, and I teach this to my students as well. You know, we want to be able to be open to that correction, you know, that, you know, like it. Correction is good because that is giving us a very clear view of where that other person is at. And, you know, to all the providers out there, remember, it's. It's a reflection of what that person is needing who's sitting across from you. So let's serve that. Let's figure that out. Right. Nothing to be afraid of from the provider perspective of that. And also, if there's something that you feel like you're missing, you know, training wise, this is your opportunity to train up, you know, in referring to another person. Right. You could actually collaborate with that individual and, you know, look at other tools that you may not have that could enhance what you're doing.
- [38:33]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Absolutely.
- [38:34]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah.
- [38:36]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Stepping away from the individual. What about the family, loved ones, the community? What role do you think that plays in this?
- [38:45]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Huge, huge. If it's there, if it's an option. Oh, my goodness, yes. You know, having family and loved ones be part of your treatment plan, you know, and be part of your program that you even build for yourself, is something that can be very beneficial. Whether it's trying to figure out and then identify places that might need healing within that unit, within that community that you have, your personal community, or whether it's. And. Or I should say, whether it's utilizing them to be able to be part of it as well, you know, and support not only a reinforcement of coping mechanisms and tools, but also understanding you and what might be going on with you so that you're not falling back into what is very common in isolating yourself. Right. Because oftentimes, no matter the mental health or addiction or, you know, diagnosis that you might have, isolation ends up becoming a huge part of it. Excuse me. We have the tendency to kind of, you know, hide when we don't feel like things are right. Okay. So again, to the audience is like, you can definitely utilize family and loved ones to be part of your plan. To the family members and to the loved ones who get worried about their person, you know, that that is needing to be in that recovery journey. I can't encourage enough of being accessible, being there. There will be resistance maybe, you know, and that's okay. That's part of the process. But there are tools and resources not only for you to help that individual move past that resistance, but also for you to process the emotions that are related to that, because there can and likely will be many, many emotions related to that. So there is help for families and loved ones as well. And there are lots of resources, too, that you can utilize to educate yourself. Again, I'm going to plug it in recovery.com. there's tons of resources there for people to figure things out, whether you're a family member or an individual yourself on that recovery journey.
- [41:13]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Yeah, that's one of the biggest things that can be different now, I think, is a lot of people, you know, 20, 30 plus years ago had families that didn't get it. And there's not really a good way to help them get it unless they actually were willing to go into a therapy session with them or go into treatment with them and get that education there. It's a little bit different now.
- [41:36]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah, it is. It's, you know, education is accessible. There's a pro and con to that, you know, like, you've got to make sure your resources are good for sure, you know, and the, that's the con, you know, that's the cautionary moment. But the pro is, is that it is accessible and we can do that research. So, you know, like, yeah, let's do it, but do it in moderation. Again, that Aster's point of like, don't go down that rabbit hole where now you've got every diagnosis in the book based on what Google said to you.
- [42:11]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
And you think you're the expert on them now because you learned stuff.
- [42:15]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that, that'. You know, like, again, to all the providers out there, you know, it's okay when somebody comes back and is like, well, I was reading this, this and this. That's okay. That's a starting point, you know, and just as it's important for the patient to provide you with correction, it's okay for you to also gently correct and guide. So, yeah, I encourage all providers to remember that. Yeah, yeah.
- [42:45]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
You mentioned isolation earlier and I just really want to highlight that again. And I appreciate that you brought that up because I've seen that so many times where isolation is like one of the biggest maintaining factors because these difficulties kind of want to keep themselves safe. They want to keep themselves safe by being hidden, by being away from other influences. And it's very scary, especially as it's gone on for a long time. So cracking that isolation open and in my experience, it's one of the really big things that can start to get something to budge.
- [43:17]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah. I mean, what do we know about any of these issues? Whether it's depression, anxiety, what have you. Your brain is this. And you can talk to me about this and to the audience about this. The brain basically hangs onto that and thinks this is a survival mechanism. Oh, you know, like, so if I have this baseline, I always say this, like, here's the sun, right? Here's your depression line. And then you're living down here, right. If you poke your head up, you know, and say, oh, the sun is out, that's nice. There's usually a fear factor that's going to be involved with that, that's going to push you right back down below that baseline to say, oh, that's nice, but actually the sun can give me cancer, so, bye, you know, like. And it'll just convince you to go right back down. Because what's happening up here, it's thinking that it's helped. Your brain is thinking, I'm helping you survive. Right. So now you got to be stuck in this way of thinking. You got to be stuck in this way of living, and that's it. Be all, end all done, right? And then you isolate, because popping your head out, you know, becomes scarier and scarier by the moment. So, you know, so it's so important to know that isolation is fill in the blank diagnosis's friend, you know, and that if you find yourself becoming more isolative, that that's a sign that you need help, that there you've got to find connection again. And there. There is healing to be had with connection. And. And a lot of people, like, I can't take a group, you know, like, no, no, that's too much. Too many people. Group isn't for everybody. Okay, but. But that's okay. You don't have to start with a group. You can start with just one person, right? Whoever that person is, your friend, your family member, loved one, a professor, you know, like a provider, whoever, just find that one person, start there, and then build on it, you know, and. And it'll. It'll work for you. It'll happen. It's reframing the mindset.
- [45:29]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
And if the therapy group is too much, maybe a pottery group isn't too much.
- [45:33]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
100%, yes. And that's where those beautiful integrative practices come in. Because that traditional thought process of I'm sitting around in a circle and talking about all the things my name is.
- [45:45]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
So and so I'm an alcoholic, or I'm a this or I'm a that.
- [45:48]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
It can be intimidating. And so, yes, maybe you're starting with that pottery class. Maybe you're starting with just, you know, the art class. Even if it's paint by numbers, it doesn't matter. There's. There's a way for you to pull yourself above that line and allow yourself to come back into the sunlight and. And say, it's okay. It's safe out here. You know, and we're taking these baby steps to. To healing and using connection as part of that.
- [46:16]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Yeah. And if you're sitting here still believing it after all this time, then the people listening that may have. Have doubts about their own prospects can at least trust that there's a reason you still believe in all this.
- [46:29]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
It can definitely work. I've seen it work. You know, it definitely works. And again, it doesn't have. This is the other one. It doesn't have to be necessarily prescribed. And, you know, part of that one size fits all kind of approach. Right. You can say, you know, I need that pottery class. I need to do a photography class. You can advocate for yourself that way, that's fine. But don't isolate. Right. The, the. The homework assignment is what can I give myself? What do I think will speak to me that's healthy and good. That is outside of me being isolated, you know, that's the homework assignment.
- [47:11]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Perfect.
- [47:11]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah. Yeah.
- [47:13]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Can you. So you, you talked about recovery.com a little bit. So what is your role there?
- [47:19]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
I'm the chief clinical officer@recovery.com yeah.
- [47:23]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
How long have you been there?
- [47:25]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
So I've been there for two years, a little over two years now. And I first started off as their content director and looking at all of our educational resources. Again, as you know, that's a passion of mine. So that's how I started. And then our company has grown exponentially and we've saw the need that our leaders saw the need for us having a chief clinical officer. And so I shifted into that role. Yeah.
- [47:52]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
That's awesome. I mean, it's the complete opposite of that caveat of be careful the resources you're encountering because a content providing platform has a chief clinical officer overseeing that.
- [48:03]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Exactly.
- [48:04]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Trust that a bit more. Right?
- [48:05]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Exactly. That's the hope. Yes. And that is certainly my continued aspiration of. Another thing that I like to Talk about for Recovery.com is being part of recovery literacy and providing accurate recovery literacy opportunities for anyone who's coming to our site. So. Yeah.
- [48:29]
Dr. Robert Duff
Yeah.
- [48:30]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
What are some things that people might want to check out recovery.com for?
- [48:35]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah. Well, we have treatment centers around the world that are accessible for you to explore if you're looking to start your recovery journey through a treatment program. And it's not just center based, it's a whole multitude of options. So you can do virtual care, iop, php, residential, sober living. All of these things are there for you to explore. Connecting to the treatment that's right for you is definitely a big part of what we do. Connecting you to educational resources that help you with understanding not only what you might be experiencing or what your loved one might be experiencing, but also how to start the journey towards treatment is definitely there. And we have a resource library that's very robust though. Check it out. We've got not only our in house writers who provide that information, but also contributors who are experts in the field who provide that information as well. So it's very diverse. And then we have wonderful podcasts. So we have our house brand, which is the Recovery.com podcast, and we have a multitude of guests on that show from not only the industry who have that professional experience, but also those who have lived experience, or in many cases, both. So we love to share those stories to make the world of recovery more accessible. And then we also have another really beautiful podcast called Giving Voice to Depression, which focuses on stories of individuals who have encountered depression and mental health issues. And what their stories, what their voices, you know, what their narratives have been in that journey and where they're at now. And it's helped a lot of people. I'm very proud to say that the host of that show is absolutely marvelous.
- [50:55]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Who hosts that one?
- [50:56]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah, Terry McGuire hosts. Okay.
- [50:58]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
I've worked with her before.
- [51:00]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah, I used to be on the.
- [51:01]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Board for Giving Voice to Mental Illness.
- [51:03]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Exactly. Yeah. Wonderful. Oh, my goodness. What a small world. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely wonderful. Yeah, yeah.
- [51:12]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Do you host the other one or are you involved in the podcast?
- [51:14]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah, I host the Recovery.com podcast, and we have lovely people on all the time, so. Yeah. Yeah.
- [51:23]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Awesome. Any other resources or things that you have going on that you want to point people toward?
- [51:29]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Well, there's going to be more to come. You know, like recovery.com, we're always seeking to expand just the information that we have to provide to people. So I'm excited as to how we're going to do that in more innovative ways. I think we're in this beautiful era right now where technology is just booming and we can utilize it for recovery even better. You know, like, so I'm excited to see where we go, you know, down that on that path. And, you know, for me personally, I'm just gonna be championing and, you know, hopefully melodically singing at the top of my lungs, you know, all things advocacy and all things that can potentially help with removing barriers, whether it's a barrier that we have individually for ourselves or for communities at large. So I'm gonna just continue doing that. And my aspiration is to not only support recovery.com with that in my own work that I do outside of recovery.com so that's my motivator. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
- [52:41]
Dr. Robert Duff
Yeah.
- [52:41]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
And a last word of wisdom or ask for anybody that's listening to this that might be, you know, struggling or on the periphery of somebody that's struggling.
- [52:50]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Yeah. You know, recovery, everyone. Okay. We always say this, too. This is another thing that I actually said prior to joining recovery.com, but. But it has become a saying that we have in house, and that is everyone is recovering from something. Okay. And one of the common misconceptions is also with recovery is like, oh, that means substance use or maybe even a behavioral addiction of sorts or issue. It's not. Recovery is all recovery journeys. That's all mental health issues, however big or small, quote unquote. Okay, so everyone is recovering from something. And yeah, that reinforces that comment of you're not alone, because statistically, you actually are not alone. And I can't say this loud enough too, because we're all recovering from something. It's time for us to break the stigma around talking about it. Let's talk about it. Let's be real, let's be authentic, be honest, and let's share our stories and our journeys so that we can help not only ourselves, but each other. And I can't. Again, I really encourage everyone to remember that the expression of your emotions only empowers you further on your recovery journey and path.
- [54:20]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Great place to end it. Dr. Molle, thank you so much for spending time with me.
- [54:23]
Dr. Malasri Chaudhry Malgiri
Thank you so much for having me. It was definitely a pleasure. And I'd love to dive, you know, spend some time diving into more of what you do as well, and would love to even have you on the Recovery.com podcast.