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The Hardcore Self-Help Podcast with Duff the Psych
A New Approach to OCD: Internal Family Systems w/ Melissa Mose
01:17:26
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, friends. This is the Hardcore self help podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Robert Duff. Today I have a very special guest.
- [00:05]
B
To share with you.
- [00:06]
A
Her name is Melissa Mose. She's a therapist who focuses on a very unique type of treatment for OCD called ifs, or internal family systems. Here are a few highlights from our conversation.
- [00:16]
C
Well, that was a. That was a personal life experience that changed things. My daughter, at 8 years old, I woke up one day with this really different kind of personality going on. And this sudden onset, what we discovered to be a sudden onset ocd, form of ocd. And I didn't know what it was at first. She woke up the next morning saying, did I swallow plastic, mommy? What if I swallowed plastic, Mommy? Are you sure I didn't swallow plastic? Would I be dead by now if I swallowed plastic? Yeah, it does spread. If you don't really work on limiting those compulsions and learning through experience that you can be with the feeling of anxiety and it will settle down on its own. If you don't really have that learning experience, it just gets worse and worse. We have this experience of these internal dichotomies, struggles. Whenever we're struggling with something, we have different parts of us. What he added to that idea, because that's not particularly new, is that our parts interact internally much in the same way that an external family interacts. There's a part of me that's scared I might do something, and I know that's not who I am. With that access to self, people really do have a whole lot more energy around being able to not do compulsions. There is stuff out there that tells people that OCD isn't curable and it's the wrong message. You can have your life back. You can get better from this. No matter how far gone you feel like you are. No, no matter how deep you've gotten into compulsions and how small your life has gotten, there is a way through this.
- [02:12]
A
As you can see, Melissa was a very interesting and informative guest. To give you a little more background, she is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She actually earned a near PhD but stopped due to some reasons that you will hear in the interview. She has 30 years of experience working with OCD and other issues in clinical practice. And as I said at the beginning, she's known for integrating internal family systems work with other types of approaches like ERP or exposure and response prevention. I did want to share one little tidbit that I wasn't able to get to in the interview. I found out afterward that she's going to be part of a conference going on online. This is the OCD SoCal so Southern California Online Conference. So this conference is a two day event for therapists and individuals who have lived in the community with OCD. And it has over 100 speakers who are experts in the field. The conference runs from November 15th to 16th, 2025. So definitely get on that if you're interested and the link will be in the description here. But it's also ocdsocal.org conference and with that said and a quick reminder to like, subscribe, do all the things you can to support the show. Let's jump into the interview with Melissa Moses.
- [03:18]
B
All right, friends, I am joined by a guest today. I have Melissa Mohs. Melissa, I'm going to record more of a thorough introduction to you and all of your accolades and such, but how would you like to introduce yourself?
- [03:30]
C
Oh, wow. Okay. So I'm a therapist in the Southern California area. I've been a licensed therapist for 30 years and that's what I love to do. And I have been interested in OCD for the second half of that career. Prior to that I worked with teens, but I'm also running a small nonprofit that is an affiliate of the International OCD Foundation. And so really I'm, you know, I'm a mom and a therapist and a person. Not necessarily in that order.
- [04:06]
B
Yeah, yeah, okay, awesome. So you found your way eventually into therapy and psychology. But like, what did you think you wanted to be when you, when you grew up, when you were younger? Did you expect to go this direction?
- [04:18]
C
That's a great question. Not even a little bit. I wanted to be an interior decorator when I was really little. But I was an English major in college. My real love is literature, mythology. I didn't even take a single psychology class in college. I didn't even take psych 101. Was not interested, but I thought I was going to be a professor. But I started getting into psychoanalytic interpretations of literature. So I was doing Jungian interpretations of poetry and mythographic language. And so that all got me interested. And I then went and listened to a Buddhism and psychotherapy talk, which was changed, kind of changed my life actually in many different ways. And I rethought everything and found an interdisciplinary program in California that kind of felt like. Because I thought that an English major and lots of philosophy and religious studies was the same thing as a psychology major. But most psychology programs didn't agree, but I found one that did and that's how I ended up here.
- [05:31]
B
Was there a type of mythology in particular that was your thing?
- [05:37]
C
I was interested in all of it, actually, just. Just through the whole concept, you know, all the archetypal studies and. And Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell. So I got into some of the Sumerian stuff and Greek mythology and all of that is, you know, everywhere. But anything that was imagery, symbolic, analogous. I think that for me, those. Those ways of expressing things that are more true than the actual facts really appealed to me from the very beginning.
- [06:21]
B
In, like a training program, you know, for like a psychology, you know, therapy. Lot of different types of people end up finding their way there. In what way did your background in English and literature and mythology make you maybe different from other people that you were in the same program with?
- [06:41]
C
Well, the program. Well, I went to a depth psychology program.
- [06:48]
B
Okay.
- [06:48]
C
So it was.
- [06:49]
B
So actually not too far off.
- [06:51]
C
Not too far. I found my people, and I didn't know where that was going to lead particularly, and I sure didn't expect it to lead where I am now, you know, squarely in the middle of the CBT community. But, yeah, in my graduate world, I was very much in line with what everybody was thinking and doing. Although I think that I have always had a balance in terms of. I have a pretty math brain, too. I was. I was a math tutor early on, so. And I taught math and I taught English. So I have a real interest in the science of things as well. And I think my program was. A lot more people would call woo woo and airy fairy and all those sorts of things. Right. It could get that way. Not that Jungian archetypal psychology is. It's pretty intense. But yeah, I think if. If I was different in one way, I would say I wasn't. I don't have issues with science and poetry living in the same room.
- [07:59]
B
Yeah, that's interesting.
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A
You.
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B
If you just looked at your history kind of on paper, you wouldn't necessarily expect that. And so that's.
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A
That.
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B
That is an interesting aspect. Okay. And so you didn't start your career focusing on ocd. You said you were working with teens.
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C
Right.
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B
Tell me about that.
- [08:18]
C
So I think the other thing that made me a little different in my program is I was in one of those psychology programs where many of the people are starting a second career. And I was a year out of college, and I looked really young for my age, even though I was younger. So I felt drawn to working with teenagers. I think that was a piece of it. And so I got out and I found an internship working in A family systems kind of a setting, which was also very different than the depth psychology and psychoanalytic kind of psychodynamic roots that I had.
- [08:59]
B
Can you talk about that a little bit just for the people that aren't aware of kind of what any of that means, like the difference between more of the depth work versus family systems?
- [09:07]
C
Yeah, yeah. So the, the intrapsychic world, the world inside is going down deep and figuring out or accessing what things mean internally, what drives us, what motivates us internally. Family systems work is about how our interactions with the people externally, the interpersonal world changes and how we can change that and impact that and relate to it. I, I, it's more analytical when you're working one on one with a person. And when you're working with teenagers, you're inevitably working with a whole family system. And so I, my, my training, my, my boots on the ground training was in family work, family systems work. And so I did that for probably 15 years where I, I worked with teens and their families.
- [10:04]
B
And that, I find that you were good at that.
- [10:07]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I was really good at that because I also, I had a wonderful supervisor who's still a dear friend of mine, and, and that sense of being able to be a human being in the room and being real and with teens, you know, they, they have good BS detectors. Exactly. They see right through you and they know what's going on. So I also, you know, being willing to sit on the floor and, you know, let's draw and listen to music and, and being able to relate their humanity and what's important to them. And so I felt like I was very good at that. I did notice that when I became a parent, I began to work a little differently and I, I could kind of understand why the parents did some of the things they did that, you know, before I could just really relate with the teens.
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B
But interesting.
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C
I had a, I enjoy that. And I still do. I, I still really enjoy teenagers. Yeah.
- [11:07]
B
And so how did you find your way into the specialty that you're in now, which is ocd?
- [11:13]
C
Well, that was a personal life experience that changed things. My daughter, at 8 years old, she's 22 now, so however long ago that was, woke up one day with this really different kind of personality going on and this sudden onset, what we discovered to be a sudden onset ocd form of ocd. And I didn't know what it was at first. I didn't know. Like all of a sudden she was just intensely anxious and was asking Questions over and over and over again for like hours, not like three, four times.
- [11:56]
B
What kind of questions? If you don't mind sharing.
- [12:00]
C
No, not at all. We had made Christmas cookies before. The kind that you roll in plastic wrap and put in the freezer to chill the dough and then you cut. And so she woke up the next morning saying, did I swallow plastic, mommy? What if I swallowed plastic, mommy? Are you sure I didn't swallow plastic? Would I be dead by now if I swallowed plastic? What would happen? So that kind of fear around food and then everything, every kind of food thing that looked a little off, she thought might be poisoned and became very terrified to eat, which is a problem that gets you a little tiny girl that gets bad real fast.
- [12:39]
B
And it was really sudden.
- [12:41]
C
It was sudden. It was at the time what they called a very controversial diagnosis, which is pandas, which is pediatric autoimmune neuropsychiatric disorder associated with strep. There's pans now that has been broadened. So it's not just strep, we understand, it's really any strong immune system reaction, but Lyme disease, things like that.
- [13:08]
B
Gotcha.
- [13:11]
C
She had had strep throat and done the antibiotics and gotten better. And then her fever spiked one night and went away the next morning. So we didn't really do anything about that. And things progressed. And then about six weeks later, this happened. And yeah, I did a lot of research. I discovered this thing. People looked at me like I was some crazy lady with three heads. That's just like, that's, you know, that's not real. You know, as I discovered, you know, moving forward through the years, it, you know, you know, there's. People have research squabbles and sometimes things get dismissed because of reasons that aren't, aren't really valid. But it, it's a tricky one. You know, there's a lot of people who still think it's more. It's rare. But I had that experience. She had all of the symptoms of, you know, sudden onset, really severe ocd, often food related, lots of agitation and confusion, and it was terrifying.
- [14:13]
A
Yeah.
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B
And regardless of what, you know, labels you want to apply to it, you had this version of your kid and then you had this version of your kid, and that was a stark contrast.
- [14:24]
C
And as a therapist, of course, I thought I was supposed to know how to handle it and how to help her. And I felt like I was more equipped than most parents, but I was still very ill equipped to handle ocd. And I discovered that, you know, as you do when you are in the face of it, you know, by doing a lot of research. I went to New York and did the International OCD Foundation's Behavioral therapy Training institute teach me about this. And that began the shifting of my career into helping people and with OCD and their families. Wow. Because, yeah, having lived it, I realized how as a parent we are natural loving inclinations are actually the wrong way to interact with somebody with ocd, you know, and so I found it fascinating. I thought the training was incredible. I learned CBT for the first time really, in my career as a mental health professional and thought, okay, there's some, you know, there's some stuff that's really useful here. And so then I took a job for a year in an OCD treatment center so that I could get some cases and really learn to apply it. And here I am like, wow, 15 years later.
- [15:44]
B
So that probably applies or appeals to that mouth side of your brain as well. The kind of more system approach. And there's a way to do things that you can stick to.
- [15:55]
C
Yeah, there's the manualized treatment plan and it's. Yeah, it's interesting as I'm talking to you, I'm even sort of seeing for myself how the, how the root here kind of really informed what I ended up doing. But, you know, it's still an art. Right. You may have session one, session two, you know, do a hierarchy and these are your skills, but it's still in how you apply it and how you meet your client, where they are. And so, yeah, it did. Definitely. It's nice to have an evidence based method, you know, to, to use and when you see somebody suffering the way my daughter was suffering, and you watch as they get better. She was an intensive outpatient program and she got better quickly. Like she was in so much distress and in like three weeks time, I could see a difference.
- [16:51]
B
So when you, how quickly did you get her in there?
- [16:55]
C
It was, it was like several months until she got in because there was a waiting.
- [17:01]
B
That's not years, though. That's great. I mean. No, that just flies under the radar for so long.
- [17:05]
C
Oh, yeah. Well, that's the other thing. Yeah. People don't know. Yeah, we don't know what OCD is really. We know that sort of the. What shows up in TV shows, but it's complex and it shows up in a whole lot of different forms and shades of gray. It's. It's definitely complex. So, yeah, no, I, we were really fortunate. I identified it quickly, got her into treatment quickly, and it was the right treatment. Right. So it was how. How you need to work with OCD to make an impact. Because Even I think 40 years ago, there was no. There was no cure, theoretically, for ocd. We. We didn't have treatments that really worked. And when you watch something like that work that dramatically, for me at least, it was like, I want to do that. Yeah. You know, that's. That's what I want to do. And so. Yeah.
- [18:01]
B
Can you talk a little bit about. So you said, you know, OCD is often misunderstood from the way it's presented, maybe in media and such. How do you kind of relate to people? What OCD is?
- [18:13]
C
Yeah, OCD is this loop. It's this cycle that is a negative reinforcement loop. So what that means is there are obsessions which, by definition, increase anxiety. Right. They stir things up or distress, discomfort. They sound the alarm, setting a whole, you know, everybody on alert. And what if this. What if that? Could it be this? And catastrophizing. So it's thoughts, feelings, urges that, like, make you anxious for lack of, like, just to use that as a global term.
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B
Sure.
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C
And then behaviors, which can be thoughts or actions. So doing something that fixes it. So obsessions escalate until you do a compulsion. And there's this feeling of being compelled to do this thing to really. To reduce the anxiety. So it's that particular feedback loop where the brain goes, oh, that worked. Even if it's just knocking on wood. Made me feel better. Right. Logically, not even connected. Or, you know, washing my hands when I have a bad thought, well, at least I feel cleaner. That worked. And the brain goes, that worked. Let's do that again. So the next time a little uneasiness comes up, we know what to do, and it becomes this cycle. So that it actually reinforces the need to do compulsions or the perceived need to do compulsions. So any. It can attach to any subject. It's not just about hand washing and checking. It can relate to, am I a good person? I have a bad thought. What if I don't really wish them well today? Does that make me a bad person? Then there's the mental reviewing and mental checking or apologizing or any kind of behavior that then you cannot relax until you do it. And that's what OCD is for your daughter.
- [20:16]
B
Like, was her compulsion, the asking you those questions, like, kind of repetitively checking with you?
- [20:22]
C
Yeah, that was one of them. I think rituals and compulsions fall into four categories. There are physical rituals, the washing, checking, flipping switches, evening things out, mental rituals which is doing all that, but doing it in your head. Saying a thought backwards, undoing it, neutralizing thoughts. Reassurance seeking is the one that you're referring to that we engaged in the most together. She'd just ask me question after question after question. There was also a lot of avoidance if something might be scary or dangerous. There was wanting to avoid that. Not going into her room for a certain period of time or wearing certain colors that were scary because they had been associated with a scary idea. So it's often so internal and nonsensical. It's the other thing people don't. You. You can't reason with it because it's like, if I wear. You know, red is a big one, right, because of blood. So I. You know, if I wear red, I'm gonna. You know, somebody's gonna die. You know, it's magical thinking and that kind of thing. And. Yeah. So the four physical and mental rituals, Reassurance seeking and avoidance.
- [21:43]
B
Gotcha. Gotcha. And you did make the comment earlier when you were talking about your daughter that you said it started with one thing, and it kind of grew. Is that common where maybe somebody starts with one sort of loop, and then it builds and builds and it kind of turns into something much bigger.
- [21:59]
C
Yeah. Yeah, it does. Because compulsions work, right? They. They do spread. And it's like that marble in the groove, you know, boy, I would go back and study neuroscience if I had it to do all over. But it's that the way that what we practice, we get better at, right? So compulsions work here, coincidentally, then they work there. And it. So people have subtypes of ocd. Some of it's like, to do with cleanliness, germs, touching things. Sometimes it's to do with harm. Thoughts like, you know, what if I want to hurt someone? Or what if I don't do something that could prevent harm, and then I'm responsible for it. What if I don't check the stove and then the house burns down and it's my fault? So it can then sometimes resolve in one area and pop up in another area, which. The whole whack a mole philosophy. But, you know, yeah, it does spread. If you don't really work on limiting those compulsions and learning through experience that you can be with the feeling of anxiety and it will settle down on its own. If you don't really have that learning experience, it just gets worse and worse.
- [23:18]
B
Right. So the negative reinforcement you were talking about, you have the anxiety building from whatever that, you know, obsessive thought Worry is. And then you do something, it kind of knocks it down a bit, so that happens more and you want to resist that. But that is torturous for some people. Like sitting with that discomfort and those thoughts and that anxiety is like. I mean, I don't have ocd, so I can only imagine. But what I've witnessed is it just like. Yeah, it's maddening.
- [23:48]
C
Well, yeah, and it, it's tough because it works for some people and it, it doesn't seem to work as well for other people. I think so much depends on if somebody has had a traumatic childhood and they've been told to sit down and shut up and bear it, to sit there and say, well, I'm going to expose you to something stressful and you're just going to have to endure it. It's the bad reputation that ERP has gotten.
- [24:19]
B
Sure, sure. Erp, that's exposure and response prevention. And from what I understand, you do erp, you also do ifs, which I want to talk about too. But before we get to the IFS stuff, what is this? You know, erp, the kind of gold standard protocol for treating ocd.
- [24:39]
C
Right. Sorry about that.
- [24:45]
B
I was trying to vamp a little bit, give you a chance to drink.
- [24:48]
C
And clear your throat tea and calm this down. Crazy weather. But. So what we know about human beings is just from experience is if we walk into a room that smells funny, eventually we get used to it and don't notice it. You know, cold pool, we get used to it. Dark room, or I suggest the nervous system habituates. And so we used to sort of think that was just what we were going for, just that habituation. But what they found to work, and this is adenophobia. Some decades ago, the first treatment that ever was really, really effective with OCD is when you combined that exposure to the frightening thing with response or ritual prevention. It's not just fear factor, it's done with the intentional addition of ritual prevention. If you're doing an exposure and you're thinking the whole time, no big deal, I'm going to go home and shower anyway, you're not going to get better. But if we can help a person choose not to do those rituals, they then learn that they don't have to. Because when people, when anxiety settles down after a certain amount of time, which it naturally does, and therapists get really skilled at helping people navigate that without undermining the process by doing a little bit of calming their bodies, you just really want somebody to have the experience of this is uncomfortable. But I can have this feeling it's not dangerous and it'll go away. If you have that enough, you begin to learn to trust that it's possible. Ideally, what you want to do to compensate for the fact that it can be really excruciating is start with little tiny things that can be successful. I mean, sometimes we'll start really small, like something not even OCD related, like just do something that's uncomfy.
- [26:58]
B
Go put your uncomfortable at all.
- [27:01]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Move something around in the house, put it where it's not supposed to go or make something. Look, just, just start to break up those patterned, reactivate, you know, patterns of doing things a certain way so that I feel better and break it up in non threatening situations. Learn that you can do that. Then we introduce a little bit of something that's a little more edgy, creates a little more anxiety and you sort of work in building capacity in that way. So that's exposure and response prevention and how you really help somebody do it from a, a true place of willingness. Like, okay, that one wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. So, okay, maybe I'm willing to try that one. That seems a little harder and you get this collaborative relationship. And so in those cases it really isn't. It doesn't have to be an excruciating horrible experience. It can be, you know, one of agency and learning to be more effective.
- [28:02]
B
I think that's important to point out. Right. Because you know, people who are struggling with these types of symptoms, you know, might expect, okay, they're going to jump off the deep end and that's going to, you know, blow up their brain. But you're talking about, sometimes you start not even focusing on the thing itself, just conceptually, how do we break up those patterns? Introduce some discomfort.
- [28:24]
C
Yeah, you, you don't jump to the top of a really long staircase. You take one step at a time.
- [28:30]
B
You know, I mean, some people try to, some people try.
- [28:33]
C
Yeah. And you do you. But you know, what we found is really, does you get there faster if you don't, you know, if you do things in doses that really work for you and you can scaffold and build. Yeah, right, okay.
- [28:51]
B
And so that's erp. You are, you know, interesting because you have a specialization in internal family systems and that's less common. That's why I wanted to take this interview because that stuck out to me. You know, I've had some other guests talk about OCD before, but never from that perspective. I think that Internal family systems is often misunderstood for family therapy and it's not a specialty of mine. So could you introduce us a little bit to broadly, what is internal family systems? How does that work?
- [29:22]
C
Yeah, yeah. Internal family systems is this very intuitive, once you start to learn about it, approach where Dick Schwartz, who was the founder, was listening very closely to his clients and heard them say the things we all say, which are, you know, part of me wants to go to the gym, but another part of me just has too much work to do or would rather sit on the couch, right? So we have this experience of these internal dichotomies, struggles. Whenever we're struggling with something, we have different parts of us. You know, the responsible part of me wants to, you know, buy this car, but fun part of me wants to buy that car. So we have parts. What he added to that idea, because that's not particularly new, is that our parts interact internally much in the same way that an external family interacts. Meaning some, you know, family members get along, they have alliances or they butt heads, they struggle, or one family member dominates and is really critical and everybody else sort of, you know, fades into the background around that. So he noticed that people will have very loud critical voices that dominate or they will have people pleasing parts that almost take over the personality entirely. High performing, sort of more managerial parts. And then they'll have reactive ones that just take people off and go binge or something like that. He discovered just by really listening that parts inside fall into two basic categories. That there are protective parts that keep us from feeling the vulnerable ones that we don't want to walk around with on our sleeve. Shame, vulnerability, fear, like the, all of those vulnerable states. Hurt, sadness. We can't, we don't. They don't want to. They don't want to. We want them to not run our lives, right? So we have protective parts that kind of push them away. So that he called those parts exiles. So we have proactive managerial parts that schedule things and show up on time and make sure bad feelings don't come up. And we have reactive firefighter parts that douse it when they do come up. But the exiles are the parts that are holding all the, all the vulnerabilities. And so internal family systems works in like this sort of internal imaginal way. So it's like an intra psychic kind of approach like we were talking about in the beginning. It does also deal with the external system. So we can do the interpersonal stuff. You know, we can do it both ways. But, but really it's A model that says multiplicity is normal. We all have parts and we all have a self. And that self is there and it's undamaged and it's not something you have to develop or it's something that you have to uncover. It's there when parts step back. So unblending from parts is the method. So learning to say instead of, I am so angry. Right. There's a part of me that's really angry right now. I know you didn't mean to hurt me, but I need some time. So differentiating from thoughts and feelings and speaking from a self led place is really the goal. And then our parts can be imbalanced so we don't flip from being this in one way and then the other way. And being totally identified with the feeling. I'm anxious isn't as efficacious a position to be in. You know, it's like that experience. I'm scared, I'm anxious, I can't, I'm overwhelmed. We don't have a lot of options there. But if we can say there's a part of me that's really overwhelmed and I, I need to pause for a minute and see what I can do about this, then there's a self there. And that's the crux of, of internal family systems.
- [33:41]
B
Interesting that, that reminds me of like the idea, I don't know, is it from. From act therapy, the kind of diffusion of, you know. But this is saying it's a, it's a step further than that rather than saying like I'm having the thought that, or this is a feeling that I'm having. It's like a part of me has this feeling.
- [33:59]
C
Yeah. I love act and, and it's very similar. The act's constant, you know, self as context instead of the content. Right. So yeah, diffusion and unblending are parallel. Ifs sees these parts as more like little sub personalities with agency, not just as these entities to like set aside. Right. So there's more of a relationship between the self and the part in ifs. That would be where the differences. Because the. It's listening to what the parts actually say. Which is an odd idea. It's not that we believe there are little people running around inside of us, but it. We treat. It works better if we treat them that way. Right. So what is my. What is that part of me trying to tell me right now? And you just listen. Oddly enough, you hear something that you might not have heard otherwise if you hadn't a different agenda.
- [35:02]
B
Is there visualization involved like, like, do you imagine those parts of yourself?
- [35:07]
C
Yeah, yeah. Some people, people handle it really differently. Some people really like to externalize. And, and so if, if like drawing it or putting it out on paper. Right. I mean, and that of course has, is similar to like thought or mood logs. You know, when we get something outside of us and look at it, we have a little difference. But. But yeah, there are a lot of guided in visualizations in the IFS world. You can go, you find them online and people will take you down a path where you unblend from your parts and, or you, you know, put a part in the room and, and you know, sort of separate from it that way watch it, do what it's doing. And it. So a lot of the work is done internally. Some people close their eyes and the therapist is, is not leading necessarily unless it's a particular guided meditation so much as inquiring, you know, what, which part needs your attention now. And well, when you turn your focus onto that part, when you find it in or around your body, how does it show up? And parts will show up as, you know, just a knot in my stomach or, you know, a voice in my head or just a tingly urge to do move. You know, we access these parts internally and they, for some people, a lot of people really do see them.
- [36:42]
B
Right. Like a crying baby or, you know, whatever.
- [36:46]
C
Yeah.
- [36:47]
B
So very individualized.
- [36:49]
C
Very, very individualized. It's different. You know, some people don't see them at all. They sense them there. Some people are like, it's more auditory. It's like that, that critical voice in my head. And so you. What happens is these become very nice, convenient shorthands for a state of mind. Right. It's like that critical parts here again, shouting at me. And the tone, you can help people like, differentiate, like, does that voice sound like you or does it sound a little different? Well, no, it's like really pressured and shrill and, and you know, intense or whatever. People can usually describe the parts in ways that feel very different than they feel when they're like. Like me.
- [37:34]
B
Yeah, because I get into the past too. Like, you know, it sounds like my mom, sounds like my dad, things like that.
- [37:41]
C
Yeah, yeah. So there is a, there is a lot of, you know, when did that part first start doing this job for you? There's a lot of, yeah, is this familiar? And so it can go into the past and that's where. That's where it's a pretty deep, it's a pretty deep method of healing. And it's, it's really transformational for people. I. I discovered ifs after learning cbt, even though it was a method that really was like. Felt like it was made for me. Like, I. How. How did I not know about this all this time?
- [38:15]
B
But.
- [38:15]
C
But, you know, I came to it with some skepticism because of where I was in the CBT world and the OCD world. So you try it out, right? It's like, okay, let me see what this. Like, this is like, experientially. And I have to say, it's. It's a pretty amazing feeling where you don't necessarily know why, but you'd find yourself behaving differently in the world because you have a different relationship to the parts of you as they come up. So, you know, really letting go of the struggle of, like, hating that part of myself. Right. Well, actually, I realize it's there for a reason, and it's trying to make sure, you know, I succeed in my career or whatever, you know, like, really getting the positive intentions so that the voices in your head become more friendly.
- [39:10]
B
And in doing that, that leads to progress. Like, leads to feeling less burdened by those things.
- [39:18]
C
Yeah, because you have fewer. You have more presence, like self when you're more. When you have more access to yourself, when parts aren't crowding the stage and struggling, you know, like, I don't know if you've had this experience, but, you know, I sure have where I toggle, you know, it's like I. Things are like this, and then I'm like, things are like that. And, you know, it seems like it's one or the other, but when you can sort of put them out in front of you. Part of me wants this, or part of me thinks this. Part of me thinks that I can be the me who's aware. Oh, yeah. There's so much more actually to information here. When I step back and have some perspective. So what that state of mind, that spaciousness is what they call self energy, has eight Cs, is. Is dick Schwartz's little way of remembering the qualities of that. But it's a more compassionate state. It's more calm, it's creative, it's connected, it's confident, it's clarity. You know, all of these nice words where you really have more of a sense of choice from a clear space, like looking at all of the different contingencies, and you have more perspective. So, yeah, by unblending. By noticing parts, first of all, because they're operating all the time, Right. We're. We're in parts that's how we interact with the world by being able to notice it. You can set, you can appreciate it, kind of utilize its benefits, but. But not be overrun by it. You, you can just be a little bit more present.
- [40:56]
B
Gotcha.
- [40:57]
A
Okay.
- [40:58]
B
And so I can see some inklings of where this would blend with OCD treatment, right? Of not being as overrun by some of these internal things that are happening. So why don't you take us there? So how does this work with ocd?
- [41:16]
C
Okay, so with ocd, I earlier had said that obsessions by definition raise distress or arousal or agitation. Alertness, there's another. A word that is in there somewhere for me. But, you know, activation, basically. So obsessions do that put a person on alert and compulsions release and relieve and fix. So those tend to correlate pretty nicely. And we're, we're not human beings aren't that neat and tidy. But inside I find that there are managerial parts that tend to engage in obsessional activity. Well, what if this happens? What was that? Better watch this. Make sure that. Are you sure? And they do all of this obsessional alarm sounding. Better watch out. So we can identify those obsessions as parts. And then compulsive parts are the ones that finally jump in and say, well, I know how to fix this. Just do that. It'll be better. Right? So it becomes instead of just this very abstract, what are your obsessions? What are your compulsions? Okay, we're going to stop these. And what's the core? It's very abstract. In the ERP world world, it becomes more relational. And so you might have a frantic part that's scanning or scouting or hypervigilant part that's tracking somebody in a room, watching everything that gets touched. Right? And so if I'm doing that, if I experience it that way, I'm blended, right? I'm. I'm watching, I'm. And I identified with the idea that this is important, right? It's. And if I can unblend a little and notice, okay, that's an obsessional part of me that's trying to manage things and trying to make sure I don't inadvertently later contact something and then have a whole spike. So being able to unblend from that rather than just identify with it. And also with the compulsive parts, the ones that are like, I have to. And I can't, you know, I have to do this, I can't do that. I'm going to fix it this way and there's no choice. So to be able then to really Feel that as a part of you and shift the language kind of like we do in act as well, like in shifting from. Instead of I have to, a part of me feels like I have to. Part of me is compelled to do this. And I know that it's going to make OCD worse if I do it, and I know it's going to be really excruciating for a short period of time. But in the end, I'm moving towards better. Right. So trying to help people unblend from the obsessional kind of activity and the compulsive activity and then like ifs. And it actually dovetails really nicely with erp. The idea is when, when that steps back, you get to be with the exiled feeling. Right. What's being exiled? What's being pushed out? In ocd, we often think of it as anxiety, afraid I'm going to get sick or something like that. But sometimes it's disgust, sometimes it's shame, sometimes it, you know, whatever the feeling is. A lot of I, I dare say on some level, most all OCD is about uncertainty, right? Not knowing for sure. So it. That might be something you think that, that your OCD is, is exiling in any way, shape or form, uncertainty pops up. I'm just going to get rid of it. That's how I conceptualize it and that's how I find it very useful, really, in alignment with erp. If you're going to still utilize the concepts that we know work, the principles underlining this gold standard of treatment, our exposure and response prevention works. Everything we do in IFS is exposure in a certain way. Right. The whole, the whole method is. It's not talk therapy. It's well turned towards that part. If you turn towards that part, focus on it, listen to it, open to it with curiosity, see if you can learn something new. And that really is the essence of exposure anyway. So this just gives another language, it gives some relationality, gives a lot of. A lot more agency. So when people can access their self while they're doing exposures, it makes all the difference.
- [46:22]
B
I imagine a bit of permission too, right. Because I think a lot of people probably avoid even trying to like they feel like they're going to speak something into existence if they acknowledge it. And so by allowing for these different parts to exist, they can maybe become a little bit more comfortable with the idea that that is there.
- [46:43]
C
Exactly. Yeah. I hear that a lot from clients. It's like I can recognize that the content of that thought isn't the point. That part of me is Worried about the table. I know the table's not really the issue. I know the real issue is that if I don't wash after touching the table, I'm going to have this feeling that I think I can't stand. So, yeah, there is a lot of. You know, I'm glad you mentioned that. The thinking, the fear of thinking something into existence. If I think it, it's going to be more likely. And. And all of these sort of magical thinking things that happen. Well, it's parts of us making movies, telling stories inside in a certain way that are very much like if you were sitting in a movie theater watching a scary movie. At least for me, I get scared. I'm legitimately scared, so. But I don't really think I'm in danger.
- [47:42]
B
Right, right. Part of you does.
- [47:44]
C
Part of me does. Part of me is like, fully bought in until I hear people chewing on their candy or something.
- [47:50]
B
Right, right. With respect to privacy and all of that, is there anything that you can share, any stories that you might be able to share from your own work and practice where you've seen this really play out in a positive way, way, things that people have overcome?
- [48:07]
C
Yeah, I, you know, it's. It's profound. I have to say, at first, being staunchly in the middle of the OCD community, I. I really identify with the. The protective nature of. Of therapists in that world, knowing that many of us have clients who have been in therapy for decades and not gotten better. Right. So really, really careful to not want to do something that's going to take a lot of time and not help people. Right. So at first I was real cautious about, let's just do it for treatment readiness. Like, let's talk to the part that doesn't want to do traditional treatment, and that is effective. Right. So that alone has helped a lot of people really engage in erp. But where I'm really seeing the difference is with clients who have gotten. Well, it was actually a client of mine who said, when you have access to yourself while you're doing an exposure, it makes all the difference. Like, she was. She'd been in, like, multiple intensive outpatient programs and residential care and very severe ocd. And. And we were doing erp. We did ERP early on, and then she moved away and she came back to me, and I was like, let's try this. Ifs. Because what she was saying is, I've had OCD my whole life. I've done ERP my whole life. So I don't know. I don't trust My thoughts and feelings, like, how do I know what I want to do in life? Like, I don't have any.
- [49:44]
B
Like, there's like, no anchor.
- [49:45]
C
There's no anchor. So. So the biggest dramatic shift I've seen in clients and I've. And I've worked with the ones people who haven't been able to get better elsewhere, people who also have trauma, is being able to really find access to self, really know that, you know, if some people are afraid of things like, what if I'm a pedophile? Right. And one of the exposures to uncertainty that is common in OCD treatment is, well, maybe you don't get to know. What if you are? What if you aren't? Don't try and figure it out. And so from what the ifs perspective, you do actually get to know, but you don't figure it out from a part. Right. You don't go, okay, well, I was around all these kids and I didn't do anything else. Maybe I am, okay. And you don't do obsessions and compulsions and all of that to figure out, am I a pedophile? Am I not? Because that's a disaster that just gets worse and worse and worse. And then you're not going out and all of these sorts of things. But. But you can still find self. There's a part of me that's scared I might do something, and I know that's not who I am. So with that access to self, people really do have a whole lot more energy around being able to not do compulsions. And so I. I've seen people who really were thinking there's no way they were ever going to get better, be able to move into life and do things fly, to see family that they didn't think they'd ever be able to do. Being able to have relationships that they thought they were never going to be able to have. It's just. I just think that it's a real gift to the. To the OCD world.
- [51:41]
B
Yeah.
- [51:42]
C
Yeah.
- [51:42]
B
I imagine there's probably people, like, a lot of people probably don't want to have kids because they're afraid of, you know, these things too. And opening up that possibility is, you know, life changing for a lot of people.
- [51:54]
C
Yeah. Yeah, it really is. And it's, you know, it. I do think it's important that. And I think this is, like, Feels responsible for me to say, like, if you have ocd, it's important to work with somebody who really knows ocd, you know, who.
- [52:11]
B
What are some of the mistakes that you see, for people that, like, you know, they're like, oh, yeah, sure, I can treat that. But really, they don't have the knowledge base to do so.
- [52:20]
C
Well, it's as, you know, therapists are like compassionate people when I hope, for the most part. Right. So what typically happens is you. Can you. It's very easy to sit and reassure somebody for years. That. And the natural thing to say when a client says, you know, I'm, you know, I'm just such a horrible person, is to just, like, help them see the good in themselves.
- [52:44]
B
You know, it's like, of course you're not.
- [52:47]
C
Wait a minute. Didn't you. You just help your grandmother move all weekend? You know, like, it's like. But it's subtle. With ocd, it's, you know, it can be very subtle, the ways in which our clients get us to reassure them. And so I think that's the biggest one, that without a lot of experience, we fall into reassuring clients. It doesn't mean we can't be reassuring presence. Right. And we can tell people, no, I. This is ocd. You're not a monster. You know, we can set a context and we can be compassionate and reassuring, but when we're being asked to. To do a compulsion, essentially, and answer a question or give an offering, that's. That's not information the person needs. It's. It's really just to help them feel better in the moment. What we're doing is teaching them that they need that in order to feel better in the moment. We're. We're really undermining them. So I think that's the most common mistake that people make, or getting entangled in the thinking, like in the obsessions and reasoning with that thought process. Like, well, okay, now does that, you know, does that make sense? Because, you know, if you did that, like, we. We can get into the. The mental reasoning and arguing with the logic of the part, and then we're really doing compulsions with the client as.
- [54:06]
B
Well, which is reinforcing the.
- [54:08]
C
Which reinforces ocd. Yeah. So it is important to. To be with somebody who knows about ERP and understands why it works and has some experience with OCD in order to know. Because it's kind of a felt sense of. I feel like that might be a compulsion, you know, that might. I feel. I'm feeling something that's like. Sometimes it's not even that overt, but you learn to recognize it over after a while. Yeah. Yeah.
- [54:42]
B
So how common is. You said that you've had a lot of success with people who have not found success with other approaches. How common is ifs for OCD right now?
- [54:55]
C
It's interesting. It feels like there's a lot of interest in it. And it's been. It feels like there's a lot of interest. I have a lot of people. What I think is really beautiful is ifs community of therapists. There's a lot of ifs therapists right now. Ifs is kind of blown up, and everybody knows about it and everybody's learning it. And so there's a whole world of clinicians out there that are interested in ifs for OCD that wouldn't have gone out and studied and learned about OCD otherwise. So people are coming to my trainings to learn ifs for ocd. And what I'm really giving is a window into the world of OCD through an IFS lens. And so I'm finding there's a lot of interest in that. And I think people are. Based on people contacting me, I think there's a fair amount of interest in it. Yeah, I. And I think it's just beginning. And I, you know, I feel like. I feel protective of wanting to make sure it's done well and right, you know, but, yeah, I think people are interested because they're looking for a compassionate way to get better. They're looking for a softer. And then that's the squishy line, right? It's like, can we make this softer better, easier? Right. And part of the healing process is, well, actually, what we want you to know is you can have a difficult feeling and survive. And if we make sure everything is right and safe and, you know, perfect before you are willing to have that scary, difficult feeling, then we're not really helping. Because the point is, life throws things at you, and you can handle it. You do handle it. So we live in this gray area. I live in this gray area between a more compassionate way to do ERP without taking the oomph out of it. Because what works is that it's challenging and that you learn that you can be with anxiety and it's okay, right?
- [57:09]
B
If you're resolving the anxiety before you do the thing, you are doing the compulsion, essentially, you're finding another way to do a compulsion.
- [57:15]
C
So that's my concern about that. That particular use of it. But. But I think people are really intrigued. And actually, initially I had been concerned because there's also. There's also some in the OCD community, some skepticism about ifs for ocd, and legitimately so, in many ways, because it's not an evidence based method for ocd, and OCD can be disabling. So it's not just everybody's little ocd. If you have the D part of it, it's wrecking your life. So we want to do things that are effective. I welcome the concerns and the skepticism, but I've been pleasantly surprised at the number of people in the OCD community that are actually interested in learning it and learning how to really bolster and make their behavioral treatment methods more relational.
- [58:14]
B
When you say that it's not evidence based, does that mean that there has not been kind of enough time for the research to really be done or are we finding mixed literature about it?
- [58:25]
C
There is very little research because it was developed clinically. The CBT ERP protocols were all developed to be researched and that was baked into the protocols. And so there's tons of evidence there. This was clinically developed. There's some research out there and there's a real push to find more. But it's really that the way it developed was not in a research community. There's promising research. It is reminiscent of the early days when there was no evidence of mindfulness, how effective mindfulness was. And if you see the curve of research studies, it's like very little, Very little. And then all of a sudden there's just tons of research anticipating, maybe not to that extreme, but I think we're going to move into discovering what are the facets of ifs that are effective. And many of them, I think, overlap with mindfulness. Yeah, sure.
- [59:38]
B
And it sounds like it's also just a very good adjunct. Right. You can take a gold standard research supported approach like ERP and add this lens to make it more effective or approachable for individuals.
- [59:54]
C
Right, right, right. It allows you to really be with the specific, with the person in front of you in a lot more rich detail. Yeah, yeah.
- [60:05]
B
Now you, you wrote a book about this. This. Is this the internal Family Systems for OCD book? And I think you talk about self led ERP in that.
- [60:15]
C
Yeah, I've been. The whole packaging of this has been kind of funny, but like I ended up with something called Slurpee.
- [60:29]
B
That's great.
- [60:29]
C
But anyway, some people really like it, so I don't know, it seems to stick. But self love ERP is really what I'm doing. Although I will say I was, I was hesitant to land to use the erp. I didn't want it to be confusing. But it did kind of evolve out of the idea that what we're doing in ifs is an encounter with a part. It's encounter and relate to parts if you want to use it in ifs language. And it's very much the same process. But I want to also say that ifs maps onto inference based cbt, which is another rising treatment method for ocd. And it actually maps on beautifully. I almost, I almost backpedaled on calling it self led erp, but here we are.
- [61:23]
B
You got to call it something.
- [61:24]
C
You got to call it something. It's ifs informed OCD treatment really. But yeah, self led ERP really, it really follows very much the same arc as erp, meaning, but with the addition of. We use these tools to become self led to relate to our protectors. Unblend from protectors. Get some access to self. Before we do an exposure, which is the encounter with an exiled part. Right. The vulnerable part. We go to the thing everybody's been avoiding.
- [61:58]
B
Right.
- [61:58]
C
So that's the exposures and encounter with an exile. And then we go back, we return to the protective parts and we process all that.
- [62:06]
B
Okay. And is this book primarily for clinicians or would you ever suggest it to individuals as well?
- [62:13]
C
I mean, I think primarily it's, it was written for clinicians. It's, it's written, it's. It's not particularly bedside reading, you know.
- [62:21]
B
Sure.
- [62:22]
C
But it does have. I've had people read it as clients who said it was really valuable. I am working on a workbook too, through. Okay, yeah, that should be out next year. That's going to try and be more of a interactive self help kind of guide through these steps.
- [62:40]
B
Sure.
- [62:41]
C
But. But I think, you know, if you're up for the dense academic writing, it could be valuable for somebody who's just really wanting to understand themselves better.
- [62:49]
B
Yeah. So you're in the midst of writing this workbook. Like what, what is a good starting place or an activity or, or something that people who are listening that might want to dip their toes in? What's something they might be able to start now and see if they kind of relate to this?
- [63:08]
C
Yeah, great. Well, it's, it's to start by like turning your attention inside and noticing who shows up. Right. So might be a part that wants to learn something new. It might be, you know, one that's trying to plan your neck that your day starting. First of all, learning to identify thoughts and feelings as they come up and then pause you. Yeah.
- [63:36]
B
So I'm imagining some people that are very not on good terms with their internal like, landscape.
- [63:44]
A
Right.
- [63:44]
B
And so they're like, no, I Don't want to. Like, you know, how does. How does one set the stage to even look inward?
- [63:50]
C
Oh, right, That's. That's such a good point. Like, I. The running narrative. I don't want to put that one down on paper. Right.
- [64:00]
A
Okay.
- [64:00]
C
Let's invite the skeptical parts. I don't want to go inside. I don't like what's inside. So there's the part that doesn't like it. So we start with that part, and we welcome it. Like, probably has some good reasons for saying that, right? Yeah. Just notice it. And then what's beautiful is if you can speak for it. Like, I hate this. This is stupid. You know, I personally don't like workbooks, so sometimes that voice comes up. This is dumb exercise. Right. Sort of a critical part. Like, okay, so part of it saying that out loud. Yeah, well, I'm saying that this to you, but, like, if I'm reading, like, I'm naming a part that might come up in me. If I'm reading a workbook that I'm skeptical about. Right. This isn't going to help. That might be a voice that I hear in my head or a thought. It might go by super quickly and not be noticed. But what we're doing is slow it down and just go, oh, okay, I heard that. There's a part of me thinks this might not help. Does that. And just sit with it for a second. Does that part have a point? Well, yeah. None of them have ever helped. Okay. So just let that part of, you know, it's got a point. It's valid. It can be there. Maybe not, like, get in the way as you go forward. Right. So it's just starting with acknowledging what's there and just validating it, because parts do kind of operate like people. And if one of the things I learned working with teens and family is if I could coach a teenager to tell their parents, yeah, I get why you're worried about this party. This and this and this could happen. I understand your concerns. I don't want that to happen either. Parents relax a little. Right. Instead of going, don't worry, I'll be fine. No, that doesn't work. So just acknowledging I don't want to go inside is important and starting there. So a lot of times the first step is noticing to bring it back to ocd. Is noticing the parts of you that don't want to talk about OCD don't even know for sure if it is ocd, are afraid. Like, what if it's not like. Or are just deeply Ashamed of being somebody who just can't resist doing these things that, you know you shouldn't have to do. Right. There's a lot of shame around it. And so starting with those and saying, you know, you can be here, too, I think that that's an important first exercise, because if you can, one of the things I think people resonate with the most is everybody's got a critical voice, like a judge. Right. The one that says, you didn't try very hard on that or you should. And so just listening to it and noticing how it's different from you. What are its qualities? Does it have a posture? Does it have a gesture? Does it have a tone? Like, almost like really kind of feeling into that critical voice and feeling the character that it is. And some people are like, get into this part of it, and some people don't. But the idea of if you were to cast that character in a play or something, like, what would it look like on stage? And that's like the ultimate externalization. So then next time you hear that voice, it's easier to catch it and to go, I hear you. Thank you for trying to help, but I got this. I want to try it anyway, or, you know, whatever. All the other parts have a voice, too. So that's. That's a really good place to begin, is just listen and notice. Like, maybe a part's bored right now. Great. Welcome. That noted. You know, sometimes just jotting them down on paper helps them kind of have be spoken for, be noticed, and then you can focus more. You can be more clear.
- [68:28]
B
Have you seen the movie Inside Out? The Disney movie? That's what came to mind for me when you were talking about that. Right. Imagining these parts and they have a vibe to them.
- [68:37]
C
Yeah. So it was an IFS trainer that was consulting on that movie. It actually is based on ifs. Yeah, exactly.
- [68:47]
B
Well, mission accomplished.
- [68:48]
C
Yeah, exactly. It really works. And I use those images a lot, especially with anxiety. If you saw the second one, you know, anxiety gets worked up into this swirl. And really, the whole point of the movie is we don't want to get rid of these fear and anger and anxiety. You know, we just say, hey, can you sit over here, have a cup of tea, and let me handle this? That was sort of the message of the whole thing to me. It was really beautiful.
- [69:15]
B
Nice. Well, that's a good primer for people then, too, to if they want to get a feel for ifs. I didn't realize that. That there was somebody involved there.
- [69:22]
C
Yeah, no, it's brilliant. I'M glad you mentioned that. Yeah.
- [69:27]
B
As we're, you know, kind of starting to wrap up a bit, can you just talk a little bit more about sort of the, the other work that you do? Because I understand part of what you do is trying to make sure that this can be disseminated to more people and more people have access to care. Right, right. Talk a bit about that.
- [69:44]
C
Yeah. So I'm trying to organize a bit more training for people. So I have consultation groups. I just did a four day workshop for therapists through an organization called Soliology, which is wonderful. And be doing some things on Knowledge Tree so people can take things on demand. So I'm working on training therapists to use this and trying to. Part of it is like teaching early identification of OCD so that kids in school, because when kids are identified early, they get better quickly. Like 80% of the kids who are identified at a young age really get better in an appreciable way, not just like 60% better. And so through, so both through my, my business of training and trying to do some therapy groups and trying to put some self help stuff together, which, you know, in the wee small hours of the night, trying to get some.
- [70:48]
B
All that extra time you have accessible.
- [70:52]
C
I'm also working, I'm the president of the Southern California affiliate of the International OCD Foundation. And so we're also trying to do the same thing in a local and a bigger way of just making access to care an easier thing for people. So the more clinicians that are trained, the more people can get good, well informed care and the more people who understand like OCD may show up as something that looks very much like adhd. A kid that's distracted and sitting there and almost talking to themselves because they're doing mental compulsions all the different ways that parents can begin to go. Huh. I wonder why this is taking so long and recognize it. So I'm just trying to do that work on the nonprofit end and then also to really provide consultation for clinicians who aren't as trained and aren't as familiar with OCD so that we don't all fall into the trap of making it worse.
- [71:55]
B
Yeah, yeah. And where could somebody start if they're on a, if they are a client, you know, somebody that is experienced experiencing OCD and they're interested in finding somebody that has a similar approach. Where, where should they start?
- [72:08]
C
You know, find some similar to me.
- [72:11]
B
Yeah. Like if they're interested in exploring ifs, you know, for their ocd, you know.
- [72:16]
C
Right now I'm the only one I know who really has a database of people who have trained with me. Although I am developing people all over the world because I have people from like, Japan and Sweden and Australia coming to my groups. So I'm developing a pretty comprehensive list of people. And I'm also. I guess what I want to say is I wish I were more ready for that question, but I'm working on getting the community pulled together so we can have like a mighty network community that has a segment for clinicians and then one for individuals so that people can get the support that they need. But right now it's get on my mailing list.
- [72:59]
B
Okay.
- [72:59]
C
On my website, melissamosmft.com okay. Or ifsforocd.com so I've got two different websites. One is more my group practice where I'm, you know, training people in a small way to provide that just in the state of California. But I'm also trying to provide access more broadly through these kinds of courses and workshops and things like that. And that's the IFS for OCD website.
- [73:30]
B
Okay, awesome. Is that primarily where you exist online at your websites or do you do any sort of content on your own? Any social things, any of that?
- [73:40]
C
Well, I try. I do try to put some things out on Instagram and. Okay, yeah, that is not my strong suit, but I'm out there.
- [73:53]
B
A part of you wants it to be, right?
- [73:55]
C
Yeah, exactly. I do have. Yeah, I have Facebook and I have Instagram. There is an IFS for OCD Facebook group that right now is primarily clinicians. But yeah, find me there, message me there. Or, you know, you can send an email to me through my website and I will direct you in the right direction as I figure it out. But I think, yeah, those are the main, main places to find me.
- [74:26]
B
Gotcha. And lastly, I guess I would just like to ask, you know, if there is somebody listening to this who has been struggling with OCD for quite a while and they are feeling a bit hopeless about their prospects because they've tried this, they've tried that, and they really still are struggling. Is anything you would like to say speaking directly to people in that situation?
- [74:50]
C
Yeah, there. A few things. Right. There is stuff out there that tells people that OCD isn't curable and it's the wrong message. You can have your life back. You can get better from this. No matter how far gone you feel like you are. No. No matter how deep you've gotten into compulsions and how small your life has gotten, there is a way through this. And it may mean, you know, that you go get a workbook. Mine's not out there, but there's a great act for. For Workbook for OCD by Marissa Maza that is really great, hands on. And then there's a self compassion workbook. There's some good ones out there. John Hirschfeld has some good stuff. He has a mindfulness workbook for ocd. So even if it's just buying a workbook, begin to explore, begin to go. Go into the iocdf.org website and begin to. To really believe that if you take some small steps today, they will move into bigger steps down the road and that you can walk through this and get better. And there are people out there who. There are free resources out there that you can start with and it's not hopeless. It's hard, but you can do it.
- [76:18]
B
And there are people walking around out there who used to struggle significantly with OCD and now do not to the same degree.
- [76:25]
C
Absolutely. I have a world full of clinician friends and some who are not clinicians, some who are become peer support specialists. Who, those communities are out there too. I'm assuming you have shownotes we can put some of this stuff in, but there are, you know, people who, who walk the walk, you know, and they, their lives are not impacted by ocd. They'll say, well, maybe once in a while I get an intrusive thought, but I know what it is and it doesn't bother me. Like that happens.
- [76:57]
B
Awesome.
- [76:58]
C
Yeah.
- [76:59]
B
I really appreciate your time, really appreciate you coming onto the show and I wish you luck and you know, it sounds like the next year or two are going to be pretty busy for you in terms of trying to really develop this stuff so people can follow along with you. And I hope that things continue to build.
- [77:14]
C
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I'm really excited about it. I think it's making a big difference for a lot of people. So thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.