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The Heart & Hustle Podcast
424: The 5 Stages of Business & What Entrepreneurs Can Learn From Them with John Felkins
01:11:06
Today we are sitting down with John Felkins! John has been with Ramsey Solutions for 12 years and is currently the Executive Director of EntreLeadership Elite, Dave Ramsey’s leadership coaching program for business owners. Throughout our chat John...
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- [00:01]
Lindsay Roman
You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast. We are your hosts, Effy McLeod and Lindsay Roman. Welcome to another episode, my friend. If you have not yet leave a five star review. If you just dig the show, I know there's some listeners out there that are just, you know, casual listeners.
- [00:16]
Evie McLeod
The Lurkin listeners.
- [00:17]
Lindsay Roman
Ooh, the Lurkin listeners. And you have not. You listen every week and you have not left a five star review yet. Just to like a subtle reminder, please do that. Okay.
- [00:25]
Evie McLeod
So helpful for us.
- [00:26]
Lindsay Roman
It actually is. It's quite life changing. All right, now, today's episode is an incredible one, y'all. This is forever. Every single human being on the planet.
- [00:33]
Evie McLeod
Yep.
- [00:33]
Lindsay Roman
Well, probably mostly the business owners, but I would still say if you're even.
- [00:37]
Evie McLeod
Interested in business, listen.
- [00:38]
Lindsay Roman
Yes, absolutely. So today we had the incredible John Felkins on the show. Now, John Felkins, if you've never heard of him, has been with Ramsey Solutions for 12 years and is currently the executive director of Entre Leadership Elite, Dave Ramsey's leadership coaching program for business owners. John brings expert advice and leadership insight to help thousands of leaders grow personally lead their teams effectively and scale their businesses the right way. In addition to leading Entre Leaderships team of business coaches, John is a frequent speaker at prestigious business conferences including the Entre Leadership Master series and Entre Leadership Summit. He's incredible. He's our new bestie. This episode was so much fun to talk with him. He just breaks down these concepts so easily. So here, Evie, you want to go into kind of what we talked about with him.
- [01:25]
Evie McLeod
So I don't want to give too many spoilers, but John basically breaks down today the five stages of business, what that looks like for pretty much every business owner. And most likely not to give too much away. Most likely, most of our listeners, including maybe even us, are in the first one to three stages of business. That's the most common. But how do we get further? How do we get from stage one to stage two? How do we get from stage two to stage three? And I don't want to give too much away about what each of those stages is and what the pitfalls are. But John breaks it down in so much depth in today's episodes, including the pitfalls to avoid how to grow from one season to the next, what you need to master in each season in order to progress to the next stage of business. It is such a like lifetime of your business overview from beginning of your business absolute conception to the end when you pass it on to someone else. Is that too much of a spoiler.
- [02:19]
Lindsay Roman
I don't know. It was a really good bird's eye view, like Evie just said, of your entire like the legacy that you want to leave as a business owner and how to grow. But even if you're like a solopreneur, don't let that like talk of vision and like legacy scare you away from listening to today's episode. Because we spent a majority of the episode talking about stages one and two and even a three a little bit, which is where a lot of our listeners right now are camping.
- [02:43]
Evie McLeod
Yes. So this is a powerhouse episode. I would really encourage you, do not skip, grab a pen and paper and let's learn from the incredible John Felkins.
- [02:53]
Lindsay Roman
You started your business for a reason. Huh? You're following your dreams because something deep, deep down inside your heart is on fire for it. And that's incredible.
- [03:00]
Evie McLeod
But if you're still scratching your head on what the why behind your business really is and what keeps you going day to day and how the heck to share your heart with your clients and customers, to connect with them and and to stand out in your industry.
- [03:13]
Lindsay Roman
Well, we've got just the thing for you. We want to help you find clarity and nail down your reasons why. And once you do this, it's a total game changer when running a business. Because once you know your why, that's when you're able to tackle your goals, actually succeed and keep that fire under your butt.
- [03:28]
Evie McLeod
So if you're ready to get really honest with yourself and discover some really incredible life changing vision, snag our Determine youe why and how to Share it with your Followers guide at theheartuniversity.com forward/why.
- [03:49]
Lindsay Roman
Hey hey. I'm Lindsey Roman.
- [03:51]
Evie McLeod
And I'm Evie McLeod and we are family and legacy focused serial entrepreneurs and the founders of the Heart University, a business education company with a mission to help you thrive in your business and life.
- [04:01]
Lindsay Roman
Welcome to our Entrepreneur Cocktail hour where business and marketing strategies meet faith, real talk and raw in life changing conversations.
- [04:08]
Evie McLeod
At the end of the day, we are all in this together figuring out how to navigate the ups and downs, the messy and the beautiful and everything in between. This is a community where you can come as you are, get inspired and walk away equipped to build a legacy filled life.
- [04:22]
Lindsay Roman
You're listening to the Heart and Hustle Podcast. John, welcome to the Heart and Hustle Podcast. We are so so excited to have you on and we've already been chit chatting before we hit record and I just know today is going to be the most incredible conversation. So welcome to show.
- [04:44]
John Felkins
Well, thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to hang out with y'all. And you're right. I mean, I. We're already friends, and this is just gonna be a fun conversation.
- [04:52]
Evie McLeod
I love how a friendship can form in, like, five minutes virtually through podcasting equipment.
- [04:58]
Lindsay Roman
Just get the rapport. And you're like, this guy's gonna be cool.
- [05:01]
Evie McLeod
We're gonna have a lot of fun. So we're. We're so excited to have you. And you. I would love if you can trim down the five minutes of rapport building to, like, two and just build with our audience. Like, who are you? What do you do? Share a bit of your story so our audience can kind of get to know you and just build that friendship as we dive in.
- [05:21]
John Felkins
Okay, well, I don't. I don't know that that will be very exciting, but at least you'll know who you're hearing from. So I have been a part of Dave Ramsey's company for 13. This will be my 13th year. And you all know we were talking about this. Dave is this crazy, you know, cut up your credit cards, don't do debt guy. And he got going, gosh, about 30 years ago, helping people with that and a radio show and all this stuff. But about. About 15 years ago, people started asking him, how have you led and built your business, Dave? So not the personal finance side, but the business and leadership side of things. And so he started teaching a class, and I went to that class as a customer in 2007 and just got connected and made friends. And then, like I said, About 13 years ago, I joined the team and we started a coaching program where we help people apply Dave Ramsey's principles and processes for running his business to their. Their business and their entrepreneurship. And so a lot of people are surprised to find out that Ramsey Solutions is about 1100 people. We're just over a thousand people on the team. And so we're not. We're not down here broadcasting a radio show from a double wide in Tennessee. It's actually a pretty, you know, decent sized company. And so then, like I said, we started the coaching program, and we've just been helping people lead their business. And I. And I heard this in what y'all said. You know, we believe that it is a ministry to do business. There isn't like, you know, the sacred and secular. We're called to be in the marketplace and do a fantastic job and serve people. And so that's what we're all about. And I've just gotten. I've gotten to be a part of that ride and the privilege of being a part of this team. And so it's been super fun. And I'm hopeful that this is helpful to folks that y'all have been hanging out with.
- [07:30]
Lindsay Roman
Oh, my God.
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Evie McLeod
I don't really have a doubt. It's going to.
- [07:32]
Lindsay Roman
It's 100% going to. I feel like we're so excited to have you on the show. And our ethics, I feel like are. Is. I don't know if. Is that the word Our mission. Missions align. Yeah.
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John Felkins
Values.
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Lindsay Roman
Thank you.
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Evie McLeod
You're welcome.
- [07:44]
Lindsay Roman
Those are better. And so we just resonate so wholeheartedly with Dave Ramsey's team and just you in general. And so we cannot wait. So I guess you now hold the seat of executive director for Entre leadership elite at Ramsey Solutions, which you kind of mentioned, is kind of Dave Ramsey's leaders coaching program for business owners. And I guess one of your key topics that you speak on is the five stages of business. And that's kind of. Kind of what we're going to dive off the deep end in in today's episode. But before we get into the nitty gritty, can you provide kind of a broad overview of what is. Like, what is that, what's the concept, and why is it important to understand as a business owner?
- [08:20]
John Felkins
Yeah. So how this came about is Dave, around 2010, 2011, came out with the book Entree Leadership. Right. And.
- [08:30]
Lindsay Roman
Oh, did I say it wrong? Is that how you say it? Entree.
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John Felkins
Entree Leadership. Yeah.
- [08:36]
Lindsay Roman
Okay. Okay.
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John Felkins
I don't know how you said it. I didn't hear anything wrong.
- [08:39]
Lindsay Roman
Okay, perfect.
- [08:40]
John Felkins
But it's just literally, entrepreneur and leadership smacked together. You know, we just made up a word. That's all it is. But the idea is that it takes the crazy risk taking, creative soul of an entrepreneur, but then it takes the critical thinking and the discipline and the structure of leadership to put those two things together to really be successful. So it's two sides of the same coin. The cool thing about that book is it shared Dave's principles. Like, I believe this. This is how you should treat people. This is how you should look at this. So really, largely, it's a library of principles. So people would read that and they'd get fired up and they'd be like, I believe that. Like y'all were saying, like, we share values. We see it the way you do. And that was encouraging to people. And that that book sold, you know, million copies and all the good Things. But people would come to us and say, but how? How do I apply this? What's the next step? Where am I in my process? And we just started having these conversations with all these customers, and, you know, over the years, thousands and thousands of customers asking the same questions. So about five years ago, I can remember as I sit here, Dave standing at his whiteboard and about four of us in his office with him saying, then what did you do? And then what did you do? And then what did you do? And really, in the book that is coming out, which has the five stages of business, it's called build a business that you love, Mastering the five stages of Business, that's the answer to all of our questions of Dave. You know, we would just interrogate him now. We would say it was, you know, just a meeting, but really we were like, how did you do this? Because you all know it's so much easier to just do a thing that you're good at than to take the time to explain it to people.
- [10:42]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [10:43]
John Felkins
And so we drew that out of him. And it's just there's two big concepts, and I know we're going to dive in, but just from the highest level, there are the drivers of business. There are six drivers of business that start with personal, and that's just leading ourselves well, purpose, being clear about what we're about. And we were talking about that earlier with ethics and values, mission and vision, that whole piece. And then you have to have a team of people, and then you have to have a plan. Then you have to have your product that you go from selling to delivering. And then you have to manage your profits really well so that you can reinvest that back into the mission of your business. And that what I just described really was Dave's mental model for building the business, or another way to say it is like, that's how he thought about it.
- [11:29]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
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John Felkins
So that came out of him pretty easily. But then we started saying, yeah, but from the outside in, Dave, like, if we watched you, if we were detectives and we just watched you grow the business, what would we see? You wouldn't see that you wouldn't see those drivers, because that's what was in Dave's head. What you would see was his business grow through these five stages, love. So from the outside in, it's the five stages. And how we can help, you know, and how this conversation will be helpful, I think, is to talk about those five stages and what each one looks like. We. We landed on the word stages. I'll make One little note like, you're not going to go to bed one night and think, I'm in this stage and wake up in the morning and feel different and be like, oh, I'm in the new stage. It doesn't work like that. It's more like a season. You know, you just. All of a sudden you start to notice I'm kind of beyond that set of problems. I'm in a new place in my business. And so I would think of it kind of as seasons of a business, but stages is a good word, too. So that's. That's kind of where it comes from and why. All got put down on paper, but I'd love to jump in on any part of that y'all want to.
- [12:44]
Lindsay Roman
Amazing.
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Evie McLeod
Where do we start? There's so much in this. I'm so grateful that you guys pestered Dave and pulled all the things out of his head and got it onto paper and we get to learn from it today. So I am ready to dive in. Are you willing to walk us through just. I guess, would you rather go for. Give us, like, hey, what are the five stages? Just as an overview and then we, like, dive into them or do you want to, like. Yeah, one by one. It's up to you.
- [13:13]
John Felkins
Yeah. Well, let's just mention the five stages. And then I think. And we were kind of talking about this before, and I will say that in our tribe of folks, our family of folks, the first few stages are the ones where people live the most.
- [13:27]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
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John Felkins
And the last couple are a little bit less. So maybe we'll. We'll kind of front load our conversation, but love it. There's the treadmill operator. This is the first stage. This is, congratulations, you're in business, you've succeeded, you have customers and you're doing all of the work yourself. And so then you graduate from that, you move into that new season and you get to Pathfinder stage and you have a team. But now you have a team. You've got to do something with this team and make sure we're all pointed in the same direction. We're all on the same path. See, we came up with these. We didn't just, like, make them up.
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Evie McLeod
We.
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John Felkins
We had ideas here. Then Trailblazer. And the Trailblazer stage is about really putting down more and more intentionality and being more and more strategic and getting ahead of problems, not just running around fighting fires all the time and really scaling your business. And then there's the peak performer stage, and then there's the legacy builder stage. And we can talk about all of those, but that's it. Treadmill operator, pathfinder, trailblazer, peak performer, legacy builder.
- [14:37]
Evie McLeod
Oh, I love it.
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Lindsay Roman
Amazing. Okay, well, let's just start off with the first one. I love that name, treadmill operator.
- [14:42]
Evie McLeod
The minute you said treadmill operator, I was like, resonate. Been there.
- [14:45]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
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Evie McLeod
I was like, that's immediately visual. I can connect with.
- [14:49]
John Felkins
Yep. And a lot of people do, and I don't want to step on anybody's toes. But, like, a really good question when you're looking in the mirror to ask yourself is, do I own a business or do I own my job? And a treadmill operator stage really is owning your job, because the way that we look at that and define that is that you are making somewhere north of 75 or 80% of the revenue that your business generates when you're in the room doing the thing.
- [15:23]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah. Yeah.
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John Felkins
So we have all these wacky, different businesses because business is so phenomenal. You know, you can make a business out of anything. But you just think about photography. If you are only making business when you got your hands, you know, when you got your finger on the shutter button and you're doing that, shoot, if that's the only way you make money, I don't want to hurt feelings, but, like, you just own your job.
- [15:47]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
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John Felkins
That's not bad. Don't. Please don't hear me say, like, well, that we should look down on that, because we. We do not. We do not forsake small beginnings, because it takes a small beginning. And if you own your job, you're successful. You're, you know, you've got business. That's good. But if you're trying to have a bigger impact and go beyond that, there's just some stuff that you got to figure out. And these different. These different pieces are this path that you have to, you know, kind of find. And it's. You got to make sure you know where every minute of your day is going. You got to make sure you know where every dollar in your business is going. And then you need help. And that's what you have to master now.
- [16:32]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
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John Felkins
At this point in the story, I generally tend to point out there's a difference between simple and easy. Because you all know, knowing where your time's going and how you're spending it and then shifting that time to something that's working on the business instead of in, it's just not a hard concept to understand. It's just super hard to do.
- [16:55]
Evie McLeod
Yes.
- [16:56]
John Felkins
And y'all have figured that out, right? Like, I was. We were talking about this earlier. You guys have conferences. You're doing stuff outside of what you started doing.
- [17:05]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
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John Felkins
So I don't know if I'm supposed to do this or not. I might get in trouble. But, like, what was that moment for y'all?
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Evie McLeod
Yeah.
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John Felkins
How did that come about for you?
- [17:14]
Lindsay Roman
The interviewee has become the interviewer. Yeah.
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Evie McLeod
I feel put on the spot, but I'm excited.
- [17:19]
Lindsay Roman
Well, no, I feel like it. It's that. What's that called? The transition between exchanging time for money to then. To then going beyond. And obviously there's a myriad of ways to do that, but then to go into. Okay, how can we. What's. I guess. What am I trying to say?
- [17:37]
Evie McLeod
I have no idea. You're on your own, sis.
- [17:40]
Lindsay Roman
Normally. Normally when I fall off the wagon, you back me up.
- [17:44]
Evie McLeod
Yeah. I didn't know where you were. Apologies.
- [17:46]
Lindsay Roman
What's. What's the opposite of like. Okay, there's trading time for money. Like. Like photo. Like where you have a.
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Evie McLeod
Usually service based and then more like passive or.
- [17:55]
Lindsay Roman
Like.
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John Felkins
That's right.
- [17:57]
Evie McLeod
Automated income.
- [17:58]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah. But there's like a word for it.
- [18:00]
Evie McLeod
Evergreen, maybe. I don't know what you're saying.
- [18:02]
Lindsay Roman
I guess. Yeah. So I guess when we were photographers, and I think even in photography, it's not like you have to go from photography to education or whatever, you know, it is. But in a service like photography, there's only so many ways you can.
- [18:17]
Evie McLeod
Your time is so limited.
- [18:18]
Lindsay Roman
Yes.
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Evie McLeod
And the amount of clients you can.
- [18:20]
Lindsay Roman
The way that you can expand that is either through, like, associates having other people. Because there's only so many weekends in a year that you are available for. Right. There's only. Your capacity is only so long. So it's like either associates or you have to do something like education or digital resources or something that, like, can expand it to make a different revenue. And I feel like for us, we chose like, the education, although, because we are two people, we just made a separate company and a new business.
- [18:45]
Evie McLeod
But that's still, I think, the turning point for us.
- [18:48]
John Felkins
Yeah.
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Lindsay Roman
I was. I'm sorry.
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Evie McLeod
I know you're good. I lost the plot.
- [18:51]
Lindsay Roman
I was like, what was the original. What was the original question?
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John Felkins
Well, that's my fault because I turned the tables on y'all.
- [18:58]
Evie McLeod
No, it's so. That was so good. I feel like there have been multiple of those shifts for us, especially because now we both own multiple different businesses. So we've experienced the different stages and the different, like, season shifts and stuff multiple times in multiple different ways. But I feel like in the beginning, if I were to go back to the beginning and guess which, I'm curious if you would feel the same way. When we both had kind of maxed our photography out to, like, almost our capacity and what we were able to do, obviously there was more we could have done of, like, higher price brackets and stuff, but, like, our time was full. And then we started doing the photography workshops, which were selling out within minutes, and so those were also full. And our wait list of the photography workshop, we hosted about 20 girls. Our wait list got up to 10,000 girls on the waitlist waiting to come to these workshops. And for us, we were like, we.
- [19:42]
Lindsay Roman
Could do no weddings ever again and only do these workshops, and we still wouldn't hit.
- [19:46]
Evie McLeod
We still wouldn't serve all these 10,000 girls who want to come to these workshops, and it would take us forever. So that was the point for us when we decided, why don't we put everything we teach in a week at this workshop and put it into an online course? And then that just, like, seven figures, like, like, blew up. And that was the point. I feel like we really shifted. And we'd brought in a team. We brought in a marketing manager. We already had an assistant at that point. We hired somebody for social media. Like, we kind of, like, shift from we are needing to be there on site for the workshops or for the weddings to, like, hey, we have a passive course that now we can sell and turn evergreen and relax. But it's like, you.
- [20:22]
Lindsay Roman
You need a team, and maybe that's jumping too far ahead into the second stage, because it's like, you have to have moving parts to support that. I think, like, for our first workshop, we were doing everything, and we hired, like, somebody to come be the chef slash assistant for the. The week, like, the workshop. But other than that, at the very beginning, it was just us doing everything.
- [20:40]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [20:41]
Lindsay Roman
Still.
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Evie McLeod
So I think that was our turning point. What, like, eight or nine years ago. I think that was the, like, big turning point in, like, our first round of businesses. Like, that kind of shifted for us and was like, oh, we. We're not needed to, like, we still did workshops and still did weddings. But we were also like, hey, we're bringing in significant amounts of money from this course just on its own, which was a big shift for us, which was awesome.
- [21:04]
John Felkins
Yeah, that is awesome, because y'all cracked the code on, you know, it was an accident.
- [21:09]
Evie McLeod
I really, genuinely, humbly speaking, when people ask us and they're like, how did you know? How did you genuinely.
- [21:15]
Lindsay Roman
We didn't have a strategy.
- [21:16]
Evie McLeod
We stumbled into all of it, full transparency. It just. The workshops just. I. I thought it would be a fun idea, and I thought Lindsay would be fun to do it with. And it just happened. And it. They blew up.
- [21:26]
Lindsay Roman
It felt like lightning in a bottle. Yeah.
- [21:28]
Evie McLeod
And then the course was just like, well, we have to. We want to serve these 10,000 photographers. We really want to give them this information to help their businesses succeed and had no idea it would turn as profitable as it was. So it just happened.
- [21:39]
John Felkins
Yeah. Which is totally normal. Like, you hear that all the time. And honestly, kind of to that point, our mission, our aim is to talk to people and see how they did that. And like y'all said, it was an accident. But if you start to watch. Well, let me back up. You know what people say most when we talk to them? They'll say, well, my business is a little bit different. The thing is, is when thousands of people tell you that, after a while, you just kind of smile and go, yeah, I know. It is sweet. But the fact of the matter is, there's patterns that are always the same. And y'all just described this, the same pattern we've heard just so many times over. So the beauty of that is. Is if. If we know the pattern.
- [22:30]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [22:30]
John Felkins
We can share that pattern with people, and they can shorten the time from one stage to the next because they don't have to wander around in the wilderness. Right.
- [22:40]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [22:41]
John Felkins
They know. This is what I got to do. I gotta. I gotta leverage my time. I need to leverage my money, and I need to get help. And honestly, it's the. It is. It is, in fact, probably the easiest move from one stage to the next, logistically. But a lot of times, it is the hardest move, mentally for people to make.
- [23:04]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
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John Felkins
Y'all got over that really quickly, but there's a lot of folks that are super afraid to delegate light.
- [23:10]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
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John Felkins
And. And let the reins loose a little bit. And then the other thing is, is a lot of times people don't know who they are if they're not the person that's doing the thing. So, like.
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Evie McLeod
Yeah.
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John Felkins
Like, in Yalls world, if. If they don't know who they are, if they're not the photographer.
- [23:30]
Evie McLeod
Yeah, that's true.
- [23:32]
Lindsay Roman
We're just gonna let that settle. Wow. Okay. Yeah. That hit some people in the heart that are listening. You just attacked some people in the best way.
- [23:41]
John Felkins
Yeah, I didn't mean to attack anybody, but, like, that's that shift of, like, do I want to Be a photographer? Do I want to be a dentist? Do I want to be a plumber? Do I want to be a, you know, a mechanic? Or do I want to be an entrepreneur and a business owner? These two completely different things. And the crazy thing is, is whether it's, you know, plumbing or photography or dentistry, almost always none of the places where you go to learn how to do the thing teaches you how to run a business. They just teach you how to do the thing.
- [24:15]
Evie McLeod
So true.
- [24:16]
Lindsay Roman
We have many a past episode on ragging on college, maybe mostly from like a photography perspective because it like teaches you fine art. And I'm like, I can learn that in a course. Tell me about taxes. Sorry not to cut you off.
- [24:31]
John Felkins
No, no, that's, that's okay. I asked, I asked an artist once, hey, could you just like, kind of give me a budget, you know, just like put the cost know. And I got back a picture of a piece of paper with post it notes randomly over all of it.
- [24:46]
Evie McLeod
No, that sounds accurate for an artist.
- [24:49]
John Felkins
And I looked at it and I thought, have you ever seen a spreadsheet? So, yeah, they don't teach people. Sorry, that's an aside. They don't teach people that stuff and it doesn't matter. Like, I mean, you talk to a brain surgeon, they don't teach people that stuff in medical school.
- [25:02]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [25:03]
John Felkins
And so making that transition sometimes is scary for, for, for folks because they don't know who they are if they're not the person that somebody is saying, the client is saying to you, gosh, these, these, you know, these pictures are beautiful. Or I feel so much better. Or that's a beautiful house you built for us. Or like just whatever it is because they're used to getting that affirmation from being the person. But if you want to own a business, you have to let that go and see that fulfilled through other people as you, as you delegate and bring them into the fold.
- [25:36]
Lindsay Roman
This is reminding me of like, there's many restaurants in our town that I get so frustrated at because, like, the, their food is impeccable, but then their wait time is astronomical. And I'm just like, hire somebody for the love. Like, yeah, share the recipe. And like, there's there's many, like, things where like, they'll, they're like, no, this is our trade family secret. We only, we can make the, you know, the, the pizza or the sandwich or, you know, the product or whatever it is product, the food. And it just, that, that reminds me of just like whether it's like a restaurant or even like photographers. I know so many photographers that we coach that are like, I can't give up editing. Like, that is my art.
- [26:13]
Evie McLeod
But it takes them 15, 20, so long, 40 hours after a wedding.
- [26:17]
Lindsay Roman
And it's like, if you gave up that with obviously, like, direction, how much more could you. How much more money or. Or impact or, you know, how much more could you do versus just sending. Spending the entirety of your business behind a screen.
- [26:31]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [26:31]
Lindsay Roman
Editing a wedding. I don't know. Many thoughts there.
- [26:34]
John Felkins
When you say it that way, it reminds me of what we started with, and that is we have a similar worldview and a similar set of values around the good of being in business. And so when you really think about that, and I don't want to get too deep, but which I'm not very often risk at being too deep, by the way. But you have to have a little bit more of a noble perspective about what you're doing, because if you get stuck in that rut of I'm the only one that can do the post editing, then your business is about meeting your needs and your affirmation, and it's about who you are as opposed to serving your community and your customers. And you actually writing the recipe down on a piece of paper and saying, here, here is grandma's potato salad. We can all make it now and we can open two locations. Because this potato salad doesn't to die when grandma does. And then it's not about just, you know, the one person. It's actually about serving people.
- [27:37]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [27:38]
John Felkins
And so that. That higher calling of business is what really helps a lot of people pull out of that.
- [27:44]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [27:44]
Lindsay Roman
What would you say? This is maybe just a. To the. Anybody that's listening that's like feeling their feathers ruffled and they're like, okay, John, what would you say to somebody that's like, well, maybe I don't want to grow big or maybe I don't want to, like, be a corporation. I'm sure we'll get to, you know, the. The other. But it's like, if somebody, like, is loving being the artist or the cook making that recipe, like, what would you say to somebody that doesn't desire to grow in that way?
- [28:13]
John Felkins
That. That is fantastic. There's absolutely no problem with that. There is no shame in that. My wife loves to bake sourdough bread. My house smells like a bakery all the time. And all she wants to do is bake sourdough. And then three or four loaves on Saturday, I walk around my neighborhood and deliver for her. You know, she makes 50 bucks a weekend, and that's all she ever wants to do. There's nothing wrong with that. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think where we're coming from is we're here to help the person that says, I want to do more than that.
- [28:54]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [28:55]
John Felkins
And that's just a personal decision. It is not a moral decision. It's not an ethical decision.
- [28:59]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [29:00]
John Felkins
But we want to help that person be. And from our perspective, we want to do good in the marketplace. We. We want other people that want to grow a business to succeed. Because, you know, the more that people like y'all and your listeners that have good hearts and want to do good work in the world.
- [29:20]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [29:21]
John Felkins
Grow. They. They displace the people that are doing it for. For bad reasons.
- [29:27]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [29:27]
John Felkins
And so we have that abundance mindset of, just because I win doesn't mean you can't win.
- [29:33]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [29:34]
John Felkins
And if. If we have that mindset and those values, let's. Let's all go succeed together. And it's just a personal decision. Sorry, I think I got on my soapbox there a little bit.
- [29:45]
Evie McLeod
No, preach from the soapbox.
- [29:48]
John Felkins
But if you want to, you know, if you want to cut hair and have one chair and that's all you ever want to do, nothing wrong with that. You want to bake bread. There's nothing wrong with that. Sweetie, it's fine. You don't have to grow business. If you want to do something else, it's perfectly fine. We're just here to answer the call for when people do want to grow beyond them doing it themselves.
- [30:10]
Evie McLeod
I think as you were talking, John, what came into my head was that. And I think maybe this shifts seasonally for different people, especially maybe for women, but I don't know if it's the same for men, too. I feel like there's also an element, like for your wife or for maybe the stay at home mom who's like, hey, I love cutting hair. I was a hairstylist full time, you know, owned my own salon, and then I accidentally had triplets all at once, and I just stayed home, you know, whatever her story is. And she's now like, hey, I built a she shed. My husband built me a she shed in the backyard, and I have one chair, and I love it. But I think the key differentiating factor there is that, especially for women, as, like, you were talking, I think there can also be, but also for men, a different, bigger calling. Like, for us, we're talking to the entrepreneur mostly on this episode, who's Feeling like their big mission, their calling for the season, for their life in general, is to leave a legacy in business. It's their ministry. It's their calling for this season. But there's also a season or a whole group of entrepreneurs who are in the season of like, hey, motherhood is my calling for the next 20 years, and I will always stay in stage one of my business while I am a mother or stage two or, you know, whatever. And I recognize that, like, I'm not trying to grow, grow, grow this, because I'm trying to grow my kids. Like, I'm trying to raise them. And that could be different too, you know, for a man who has, I don't know, a calling in ministry or as pastor or whatever.
- [31:40]
John Felkins
Right.
- [31:40]
Evie McLeod
But it's like, what is. What do you feel like? And we'll bring God into this because we're. We're believers. But for any listener who isn't, that's totally fine. Take your. Your pull on this. But for us, it's like, what has God called you to as your primary mission in this? You feel like it's this business, this entrepreneurship, this ministry through the marketplace, Then let's talk about it. Let's talk about how to serve more people, bless more people, minister to more people. But if you're listening to this and feeling like I don't feel like that is my number one calling right now. Just what is it? What is it? It's probably something else. And you can identify it pretty quickly and be like, that's where the primary focus of my time and my energy and my passion needs to be going. And this is my amazing side hustle and, like, extra outlet on this side. And that's beautiful. And like you said, John, nothing wrong with that.
- [32:30]
John Felkins
Nothing wrong with that. I mean, it's more than nothing wrong with that. When you bring, and I'll say this unapologetically, maybe I get in trouble, but when you bring motherhood into the equation, what higher calling is there, right? I mean, literally, you're investing your life. And it takes, like I said, I have four children. It takes so much to do that successfully. And so not only is it not. Not a problem, or not only is it not wrong, like, so much honor and respect for moms that do that. And so I don't want anybody to feel like that's not the case, that we think that's fantastic. But like I said, it's just when you get to that season where you're like, I want to extend beyond this, if that comes for you, then we're here to answer that call.
- [33:20]
Evie McLeod
I love it.
- [33:21]
Lindsay Roman
That's amazing. All right, entrepreneurs, let's face it. You're in a picture. You're not attracting your ideal clients because your brand visuals are just meh at best. And you're not showing up as the professional ready to make their life 500 times better. Do you honestly feel like your website just sucks? Like your branding feels like you created it in Microsoft's Paint? Anyone else remember Microsoft's Paint? Is that just me? Okay. And your, your client experience just overall feels like it's seriously lacking and you just need a change right now. But let's be honest, you're not ready to drop 8k on a custom web and brand design. Well, don't worry, that's where we come in.
- [33:57]
Evie McLeod
Introducing the solution to all of your website struggles. The Heart Shop website templates. Now, we spent hours designing these customizable, professional and conversion intense website templates with our incredible designer, Sarah Crook of Elizabeth Designs. They are so incredibly easy to use and customize with Showit's user friendly interface. Yes. By the way, you can easily learn how to work with Showit even if you've never touched a website or any design platform before for and you can change literally anything you want. No more being limited to squares on your website. It's a drag and drop system that is freaking easy and looks incredible. Oh, oh, you want more information?
- [34:38]
Lindsay Roman
Cool.
- [34:38]
Evie McLeod
I got you. The templates come already SEO optimized with copy prompts from Lindsay and I included. Yeah, you don't just get nonsensical filler text. You get bomb education and prompts from Lindsay and I to help you wow your potential clients and crush your website copy. And we designed a variety of of these in different styles so you can find the closest match and then tweak it to make it fully your own.
- [35:02]
Lindsay Roman
If you're ready to save thousands of dollars and hours upon hours upon hours of your time and get clients flooding through your website, you need to check these out. So grab yours@theheartuniversity.com website templates one more time. That's theheartuniversity.com website dash templates. If you're enjoying what you're getting in this podcast for free, then you're about to get your mind blown with what we offer in our education. If you're ready to uplevel your business, serve your clients like never before, and reach revenue goals that you've barely dared to dream of, then we're ready to help.
- [35:38]
Evie McLeod
Our courses are packed full of tools, formulas, Strategies and resources to help you kick freaking butt in biz. Whether you choose the Photo Major, a complete course for photographers, or the Content Photo Minor, a mini course on how to finally slay your content photos for your blog, Insta Headshots, whatever, you will walk away with more knowledge than you ever thought possible. And here's the reality. We are here to see you succeed always and forever. And that is why we created each and every one of these courses.
- [36:07]
Lindsay Roman
To check them out for yourself, read the reviews and look at each course syllabus, go to TheHeartUniversity.com courses. That's TheHeartUniversity.com courses. Okay, so right now, we're in the first stage, and we're trading time for money. We're celebrating. We're on that treadmill. We're running, we're striving, we're doing all the things. We need something, we do it. Okay. We're burnt out, probably we're over at work or at risk of. So we're running heavily on said treadmill. What is the stepping stone or the transition thing that gets us from first stage to second stage and then maybe share again what the second stage is?
- [36:47]
John Felkins
Yeah, sure. Fantastic question. So there's this principle that goes through all these stages, and I always chuckle when I start to say this because it sounds so encouraging. What I mean by that is, is when you solve this problem, your reward that you get for solving this problem is you get a new problem. You get a new and bigger and more complicated problem. So we're on the treadmill. We have optimized the treadmill. Just mean like that that joker is just running efficiently. I'm not wasting time. I'm keeping track of my money. And the only way that I can take this next step is I get some help. And so I get some help, like y'all said. I get. I get an assistant to help book stuff and. And schedule things, let's say. And then I get a chef to cook, you know, while I'm doing this thing, and I start to get a little help, and then that help gets a little more regular, and then I get a little more help. And then I look up and there's five or six people standing around, and I have this team.
- [37:53]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [37:54]
John Felkins
And now I realize, because I solved the problem of getting off the treadmill and I'm actually making money by selling my course or workshop or my merch or this other service that I don't have to be in the room when it gets delivered. My reward for having figured that out Is I have this new challenge of I have to lead a group of people to do it the way that I do it in the timeliness, that I do it with consistency and excellence and continue to build the brand. And that is actually a harder process problem than, you know, getting off the treadmill.
- [38:31]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah. It's like you've made yourself a boss.
- [38:33]
John Felkins
That's right. That's right. That's right. So let me ask you, Lindsay, did I answer you? I want to make sure I answered your question. It's making the most of your time really leveraging your money well and then doing a very good job of getting some help. And can I say one more thing about getting.
- [38:50]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah, please.
- [38:52]
John Felkins
Okay. Picture this. This when you're, you're a little one or two person business, it's a little boat, It's a little business. Right. Just think about somebody jumps in a canoe with you, we're all getting wet. If they act stupid. If somebody jumps in a real, in a cruise ship, you don't even. They're jumping around on the front of the cruise ship. You don't even know they're acting like an idiot. But when you hire your first one or two people, they can get, they can get everybody wet. They can make a mess, they can.
- [39:24]
Lindsay Roman
Capsize you real fast.
- [39:26]
John Felkins
Yes. And so just keep that in mind when you make your first hire or, you know, you start to delegate to somebody, even if it's like a part time, a fractional role or whatever, make sure that this person is solid because they can really mess things up badly. Is that a word so early on? So those are the things that you have to do do so that you're not making most of the money yourself. And then now we're stepping into the pathfinder stage and that's all about leading people.
- [40:00]
Evie McLeod
Oh, I love this.
- [40:01]
Lindsay Roman
So would you consider you're in stage two, the second you hire your first employee or, or even independent contractor?
- [40:07]
John Felkins
I, I would say it's more, let me say that's a part of it. But I would focus more on do I still make almost all of the money myself? If you go on vacation and not work for a week, does the money keep making business? Does the business keep making money? I just said that backwards.
- [40:29]
Evie McLeod
We knew what you mean.
- [40:30]
John Felkins
Yeah. Does the business keep making money? Maybe it slows down a little bit. I'm not saying like exact, but you're getting off the treadmill when you're not the only one making the money. And that usually to your question, Lindsay, is when you start to get Some help that can generate revenue. So, yeah, your very first hire might be an assistant or a, you know, a chef, a helper or whatever. So that might not quite do it, but you're on the. You're on the way.
- [40:58]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [40:59]
Evie McLeod
I've heard you describe the second phase in some of my research of. Of this phases of business. I heard you describe the second phase as like, a little bit like the game of whack a mole. Is that correct? Do I remember that?
- [41:13]
Lindsay Roman
Unpacked?
- [41:14]
Evie McLeod
Can you unpack that?
- [41:15]
John Felkins
Yes. You have revealed your detective skills. So like I said before, you solve this one problem, your reward is a new problem. So now you have a team. Let's say we've gotten, you know, like I said, it's a season. You know, it's not summer anymore. It's starting to get cool. And what I mean is, like, you're not making all the money and, you know, Sally is doing something and Fred is doing something. And then you hear from a customer that Fred walked in the house, you know, with muddy boots on, and you're like, fred, that's not how we do it. And then what you start to realize is you are running around putting out little fires or playing whack a mole. Like, we don't do it this way. This is how we do it over here. We missed on this scheduling because you have this team. You have all these variables in your equation, and the challenge that you now have is really, really getting everybody bought in and. And going in the same direction. And that sounds simple on the server, on the surface, but, you know, we have the. We value the same thing. So we don't want to use, like, business speech values. Just like, okay, what's important, Fred? What's important? When you go to the customer's house, you put the little blue booties on your boots, Your truck is clean. You do what you say you're going to do. When you say you're going to do it for the price, you say you're going to do it. That's how Heart and Hustle air conditioning repair works every time. That's who we are or whatever the business is, Right?
- [42:45]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [42:46]
John Felkins
And so it's like getting aligned, getting a whole team aligned. And that is. That's tough to do because, y'all know, humans are like, we're just, like, so crazy.
- [42:55]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [42:55]
John Felkins
And so being clear on what our mission is, being clear on the things that we value, our values and the vision that we have for our business, and everybody, you know, getting on board with that, that's the problem that you have to solve when you're in the pathfinder stage.
- [43:13]
Lindsay Roman
Do you have any tips on how to say you come up with your mission statement, your values, your company? Maybe, maybe it doesn't feel right to call yourself a company at that point. I don't know, maybe that's just a term. But like your, your ethics or whatever of like this is who we are, this is what we do, this is how we do it. What are some tips that you recommend for implementing that or making or enforcing that to help your employees or independent contractors, whoever they are, like actually follow through and do them or uphold those standards?
- [43:46]
John Felkins
Yeah, super good question. Because that's, I mean that's the job, right? Like that's the thing that you gotta master. One thing I'll say as I kind of tee this up, this is one of the things that by and large really needs to come from your heart. Like you don't do this by pole. You don't go around and ask people, what do you think our mission should be? What do you think our mission should be? It's like what God wired into your heart. This is what I believe we're going to do. This is what I believe in. This is who we are. And it's totally okay if you're not into that. And you know, I'm going to pray for you as you go find a new job. Because this is what you know, we do, this is who we are. And so being ultra clear on that and that coming from within you. So that's step one. Step two is this is one of those things that you have to repeat, we call it the chief reminding officer. You just have to just keep going back to this over and over and over again. And what I say to people is when you get sick of hearing yourself, remind people what we value, what's important to us, this is who we are and how we do it. When you get sick of it, you have just barely begun to say it enough.
- [45:03]
Evie McLeod
That's so good people.
- [45:05]
John Felkins
We just have to remind people in different and creative ways and not be an ogre about it. But like I will tell you here, we got, like I said, over a thousand people every month, Dave or one of the board members, Daniel, get up on stage and they talk about one of the values. Now we've been at this 30 years and it still hit the value values. What does it mean to be have a self employed mentality? Why do we say we do our work as unto the Lord? What does it mean to say excellence in the ordinary? Why do we believe we're crusaders? Like, these are on the walls, they're on T shirts, they're on posters, and we just talk about them over and over and over again. And that's not a very fun. Or here's the five secrets about how to get, you know, create alignment. It's just like, you just have to hit it over and over again and remind people.
- [45:59]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [45:59]
John Felkins
And can I say one more thing?
- [46:02]
Evie McLeod
Absolutely.
- [46:03]
John Felkins
You have to, you have to uphold them even when it's inconvenient.
- [46:08]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [46:09]
John Felkins
So when, when Sally or, you know, Sam or Susie or whoever it is that you really kind of like, keeps gossiping and you've warned them, you might have to actually fire somebody that you don't want to fire. Because if you don't stand personally for the values that you've told your team that you stand for, everybody gets the message. Oh, this is just window dressing. This is just for looks.
- [46:35]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [46:36]
John Felkins
And so you got to live by your own, your own standards and your own values.
- [46:40]
Evie McLeod
That's so good. It's, that's. It's hard. We've, we've been there with, with team, especially the longer the history you have with them, it gets harder and harder.
- [46:50]
Lindsay Roman
But like you said also, like over, over the years, if you let things slide, like you just said little, little.
- [46:56]
Evie McLeod
Things, and then they all, they eventually.
- [46:58]
Lindsay Roman
Stack up over time and then you get yourself in a pickle that's like, oh, well, now how do you deal with it?
- [47:04]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [47:05]
Lindsay Roman
When you have it in the past.
- [47:07]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [47:07]
John Felkins
And everybody sees that.
- [47:09]
Evie McLeod
Yeah. Yeah, everybody sees that. I love, I love the concept, too. As you were sharing all of that, John, what came into my mind was as you were saying, like, say it over and over again, I was also thinking, like. And also, like, live it. Which I know you were saying this too, but like, you as the CEO, as the boss, as the, you know, whoever, like your employees, your team, watching you live that in the day to day of business, not just saying it, but doing it. I feel like that's, that's setting the culture that then people, you know, recognize and acknowledge, like, oh, that's the gossiping doesn't line up with, you know, how, how John talks to or about his employees. Like, this is out of line because they see the difference because they're watching it day in and day out.
- [48:00]
John Felkins
So the audio and the video don't match up.
- [48:02]
Evie McLeod
Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's a great analogy.
- [48:06]
John Felkins
And they, and they need to.
- [48:08]
Evie McLeod
Yeah, I love that.
- [48:10]
Lindsay Roman
It's amazing.
- [48:11]
Evie McLeod
What do you feel like is one of. Of the biggest, I guess, hiccups that you see. And maybe you already said this in, like, you go from, you know, managing kind of being in charge of your own time, your own self, and suddenly managing others. Is there anything else that you notice is like a big potential pitfall for somebody stepping from the first stage to the second stage of business that you're like, just be warned. I've seen this over and over again. Watch out for this one.
- [48:37]
John Felkins
Yeah, I love. I love that question. And I think the thing that we see the most is people hiring for a skill set as opposed to a mindset.
- [48:50]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [48:51]
John Felkins
And.
- [48:53]
Lindsay Roman
Sorry, I just wanna. I wanna tattoo that across my face, literally. The snaps today.
- [49:00]
John Felkins
I love the snaps. That means I'm on the right track. This is a Lindsay approved comment. Thank you. With the snapshot, you know, we get to the point where, okay, we've got a team, we're getting busy, and I need help. I need, you know, and unlike getting off the treadmill, I probably have gotten enough business now after I've been in Pathfinder for a while, that I got customers standing there waiting in line for the help. And, you know, Joe actually knows how to make grandma's potato salad, but he's a jerk. Joe's a jerk.
- [49:36]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [49:37]
John Felkins
And. But I'm in a bind. I need potato salad at this event that I catered this weekend. And Joe knows how to make it. And so I'm like, come on, Joe, let's go. You know, I don't take the time in the hiring process, and I just get him in there because he has the skill set. And then something happens. And then John's catering service now has a bad reputation because, you know, Joe cussed out, you know, whoever at the. At the wedding party or whatever. Whatever it is. I know I'm making up silly examples, but. But hiring for the skill set and not the mindset puts you at risk of damaging your brand. And so as much as it might pain you, no hire is better than a bad hire. And so being patient and finding the right person and filling those gaps and slowing down. Nobody likes to hear that. Nobody ever buys a copy of Slow Company. Max. Like, we all want Fast Company magazine because we just, you know, we want to get to whatever the next level is. But the tortoise always beats the hair.
- [50:43]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [50:43]
John Felkins
And just taking the time reminding everybody, this is who we are. You said it, Lindsay. This is who we are. This is how we do it. And this is, you know, this is what winning looks like. Just being patient and Persistent. I don't know if that's, you know, super helpful because it's not super exciting sounding. It's just what it. It's just solid.
- [51:05]
Lindsay Roman
It's just, well, character over skills every time. Obviously, skills are important to an extent, but you can train skills, you cannot train character. I feel like a good example. This was years and years and years ago. We were hiring a new podcast manager, and we had, like, a day full of interviews. And I remember there was a girl that was, like, very skilled, had done lots of podcast managing in the past. And I remember, I think the question that we asked her at the end was like, why would you like to work? Like, why would you like this position, basically? And I remember, remember she didn't say anything about who we were or, like, what our mission. Our mission or. Not that she has to necessarily. But I remember the answer was just like, I just think this would be the next great step in my career. And I'm really looking forward, like, to stepping stone, whatever. It was like, all of her focused. And then I remember the girl that we ended up hiring had never done podcast managing in the past, but she had researched it and she said, like, she had already, like, looked into the platforms that we were doing, and her character shined through far and beyond. And, like, she was cared about our.
- [52:07]
Evie McLeod
Mission too, which was like, not that the other girl, because we didn't know her enough to know if she had good character, but the values on that element misaligned because we could tell we were a stepping stone for her, which is fine. We just. We were like, we want somebody who's willing to be here for five to eight years. And we could tell she was willing to be there for one to two. And we're like, that's just not what we're looking for. Yeah. And we could immediate. You can immediately see when you're like, hey, you have all this stuff, skills, but there's. There's a misalignment there. And we went for the girl who ends up, like, still is like a dear, close friend of ours to this day. And we all sobbed when she ended up stepping down, down to step into motherhood further. So, you know, and that's it. Just. The character, like Lindsay said, can never be taught, trained. And the values, like, that's all so foundational.
- [52:53]
Lindsay Roman
But the.
- [52:54]
Evie McLeod
The skills, like, we, you know, had our current podcast manager train her replacement, you know, in. The skill can be trained if. Especially if you have a long enough Runway. Like, you can train certain things, but yeah, the character you. You Just can't.
- [53:09]
John Felkins
So you can't. And like y'all said, let's go for both.
- [53:13]
Evie McLeod
Yeah, let's.
- [53:14]
John Felkins
Let's get both.
- [53:16]
Evie McLeod
And that's the home run.
- [53:17]
John Felkins
That's the home run. But if you have to. If you have to hedge a little bit on, you know, one over the other, then we're abs. Y'all are absolutely right. You're going for character. And when you. When you start to get a group of people, people that are all pointed in the same direction, valuing the same things, doing things the same way, you really have started to master that Pathfinder stage. And like I said before, your reward is a new, more complicated problem, because you'll get a.
- [53:45]
Lindsay Roman
What's stage three, John?
- [53:47]
John Felkins
Yeah, you'll get this peek. You'll get this little glimpse of, oh, this, this business, this impact, this good that we're doing in the Marketplace. Could be 10x what it is. And I don't mean, like, that's just a dream. Like, you're seeing signs of it. You have so much business coming at you, and you're so busy, you start to feel like we are just spread thin. Everybody's on the same page. We know how to do all this stuff, but we just can't get it all done. And I'm the CEO. I'm leading hr, and I'm also this person over here. And then my ops person is also the finance person and the janitor, and also they manage the parking lot. Like, you start to realize we're spread too thin. We're not getting above the business and thinking about it in terms of, like, the next 18 months or two years, we're just one thing after another, just one campaign, one project after the another. And Trailblazer is all about getting above that and putting together a really solid leadership team and having a strategic plan where you. You are. I mean this in a good way. Like, you're imposing your plan and your strategy on your business as opposed to just responding what the market is doing. And so Trailblazer is all about intentionality and working smarter, not just harder, because you're already working harder, but there's an end to that. I mean, at some point, if you work as hard as you possibly can and you work the most hours that your life balance will allow. Wow. The only thing you've got left is thinking differently.
- [55:29]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [55:30]
John Felkins
And that's. That's thinking strategically, and that's Trailblazer. And that's. That's. Like I said, that's a whole new set of problems. Yeah.
- [55:37]
Lindsay Roman
Is that Is it, is it traction, the book that, that talks about like, like replacing yourself as you. As you get?
- [55:45]
Evie McLeod
I think it is traction, something like.
- [55:46]
Lindsay Roman
That that reminds me of like. So basically the difference, if I'm understanding this correctly, between the second stage and the third stage is the second stage you have a bunch of employees that you're manag. Now the third stage is you raise people up and then you manage the leadership team and then they manage everybody else. Almost like a little pyramid.
- [56:07]
John Felkins
That's right. That's right.
- [56:08]
Lindsay Roman
Is that okay?
- [56:09]
John Felkins
Yeah.
- [56:09]
Lindsay Roman
So that's, that's where we're at now.
- [56:11]
John Felkins
Yep. And that is an infinitely harder thing to do. This is where entree, leadership and, and build a business you love really starts to help people the most. It helps people across all the stages. But the reason I say that is, is because when you step into leading people that are leading people.
- [56:29]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [56:29]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [56:30]
John Felkins
That's a whole new ball game.
- [56:31]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [56:32]
John Felkins
Because you can't go and have the conversations. You can't go and explain to Bobby or Sally or whoever. You have to put the little blue slip on things over your boots. So you don't track mud in people's house. You don't, you know, we're going to run the class this way. Like, you have the communication skills, Evie, you can go and do that and talk to other people. But now you have to talk to two or three people.
- [56:53]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [56:54]
John Felkins
And get them to go have the conversation. And you're one removed. That's a whole new ball game. Yeah, that's a, that's way harder to do.
- [57:01]
Lindsay Roman
If there was like one takeaway from this stage that is like the learning lesson or the goal of how to do that, what would you say it is?
- [57:11]
John Felkins
Learning how to put together a team that can lead your whole business. Business. And that's. I feel like that's kind of a cop out answer because you're asking me for one specific thing and I just gave you something that's like a mile, a mile wide. But, but that's, you know, that's what it, that's what it is. You just gotta have a team and a plan that you can execute on that is you working on the business, not just in it and at a whole new level. So I don't know, I'm kind of thinking while I'm answering you, but it always comes back to the same thing for folks. You got to look. And as the leader you're now investing in, let's just say five people. Let's say you have a leadership team of five People. The whole thing hinges on your ability to invest in them in a way that their leadership is adequate to lead the whole business.
- [58:07]
Lindsay Roman
Business.
- [58:08]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [58:09]
John Felkins
And it's just as complicated and just as, you know, hard as it sounds. But it's also. You don't have to worry about a whole lot of other things. It's. It's a. Yeah, maybe I could. I could say this a different way, Lindsay. It's a lot more about who than it is about what at this stage of the game.
- [58:29]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [58:30]
John Felkins
Because you are raising up leaders, you're investing in them, and it is a people to people, interaction, action, form of leadership much more than it is a, here's how we do the thing. Because they have to be able to go explain that to somebody. Is that helpful?
- [58:47]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [58:47]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [58:47]
Lindsay Roman
Oh, so helpful.
- [58:48]
Evie McLeod
It is.
- [58:48]
Lindsay Roman
Okay.
- [58:49]
Evie McLeod
I love that. What as this we step into. So that's the third stage. Right. Is the trailblazer.
- [58:55]
John Felkins
Yep.
- [58:56]
Evie McLeod
What is the fourth stage? How do you transition? Because I think a lot of people would consider the third stage is like. Well, that's. That sounds like you've made it.
- [59:04]
John Felkins
Yeah.
- [59:04]
Evie McLeod
You're like the CEO and you have like all these other C level or however, you know, other managers, leaders. Like, what else is there beyond that? So what's the fourth stage? Beyond this one?
- [59:14]
John Felkins
Fourth stage is peak performer. And what we see in this stage of business is you are really first in class at what you do. Like, you look around, and now this might sound kind of big, but you look around the industry, you look around the country, you look around the market, not just next door, not just on Main street in your town. You're looking across all of the companies that do this, and you have a rock solid leadership team. You're working strategically, thinking strategically, and you're making a big impact in the marketplace. And you have been doing that for a while. And when I say a while, I mean years. And you're really at the peak of your game. And what you have to watch out for when you. You kind of wake up that day and you realize that's where you are or, you know, that's where you've gotten over the course of months and maybe even a few years. Years. Is getting comfortable.
- [60:12]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [60:13]
John Felkins
Is really, you know, just sitting back and saying, because the truth is. The truth is, y'all, if you've done this, you're probably making quite a bit of money.
- [60:25]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [60:25]
John Felkins
You're probably. Your business is generating a lot of money, and you probably have a life that you didn't realize you could have, have. And it's easy to take your eye off the ball. And what's even easier is, is that person that you just hired that doesn't know what it took to get to where we are. They take it for granted and maybe they feel a little entitled. I don't know, y'all some. The next time you're in Franklin, like, come see us. And we used to be in seven little rented buildings north of here, but now we're on like a 75 acre campus with two six story towers and our, you know, almost, I don't know, 25 seat event center that Dave built with cash.
- [61:11]
Evie McLeod
Wow.
- [61:12]
John Felkins
Didn't borrow a dime for any of it. So if you got hired last week and you come walking in and you're looking around at all of this, you're like, yeah, this is who we are. And I'm like, well, you need to just sit down over there and shut up. Because you don't know. Like, I walked uphill both ways in the snow to lunch every day, you know, your little pip squeak. And so I know I'm kind of joking around, but that's the risk is people start to lose the perspective about what it takes, the amount of hard work, and you take your foot off the gas, you'll coast, you know, you'll coast to a standstill and somebody else who has their foot on the gas will pass you. And like I said before, we have an abundance mentality. We can all win, but. But they can pass you or your business can start to decay from the inside. And that's the. That's the challenge of the peak performer.
- [62:08]
Evie McLeod
I love it. I feel like, what. I'm curious because I have a thought that just popped into my head, but I almost want to hear yours first to see if I'm on the right track. What would you say is like the. I guess the antidote for that, like, pitfall of, of either complacency or not communicating the mission, the hard work, the values that got you to where you are. How do you avoid that? What's the antidote to that?
- [62:37]
John Felkins
Yeah, so that's an awesome question. And in one word, it's vigilance. But then really, that's a cop out because then you got to ask the question, well, how do you stay vigilant? Right?
- [62:47]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [62:47]
John Felkins
And I will tell you, the number one way to do that is to stay connected to your customers. And Dave is the best leader that I've ever worked for. And I think one of the things, things that he might even tell you, like, I didn't do this on purpose, but it is. Where we are is. He's on the radio show for hours, every day listening to that single mom saying, I've got these three kids, the creditors are banging on the door. I can't make ends meet. What do I do? And I will tell you, I've seen it so many times when Dave will read the emails from those folks that write in that, you know, that we helped, he still gets a tear in his eye. He still feels it in his heart. And so staying connected to the mission and staying connected to the customer and knowing the difference that you're making in their lives, that's the antidote. That's the thing you gotta stay plugged into. And then you gotta stay fired up, and you gotta make sure the team is fired up, and you gotta make sure. Now, this is gonna be. I'm gonna lower my voice here a little bit because I don't want to hurt feelings. But, like, when you come across a team member who isn't fire, maybe they need to go to work for somebody else, you know, and then every once in a while, when that actually happens and they go to work for somebody else because they weren't fired up, everybody is kind of reminded, oh, yeah, this is what we do, and this is why it's important. And so I'm still fired up. And, you know, it's not a show. It's not just a. You're not trying to impress leadership or anything, but we all are deeply committed to what we're doing, and that starts from the top down.
- [64:23]
Evie McLeod
Yeah, I love it. I just feel I have a moment. I was proud. My answer was correct. My ego. I'm fine. It was.
- [64:37]
John Felkins
Yeah.
- [64:37]
Lindsay Roman
Because that's the thing.
- [64:38]
Evie McLeod
As you were sharing and saying, you know, our possibility and problems and pitfalls here are our complacency or, you know, it not communicating essentially, like the mission. And I was like, well, what's the antidote? In my mind, I was like, you've almost lost sight of the mission as.
- [64:54]
John Felkins
That's right.
- [64:55]
Evie McLeod
The owner as the CEO. It's become about the business management or, you know, the structure, the formulas, the numbers, the KPIs, whatever. It is like, you've almost gotten so in the weeds of the business that you've lost sight of. Why are we doing this in the first place? Like you were saying with Dave, like, the tear in his eye, it's like, that's his mission. That's the mission of, you know, all of Ramsey. And what you guys are doing over there is how can we help help our customers and these people get out of these situations? And so when I feel like when you get to that place and you lose sight of your mission, that's when I would notice that things would probably start crumbling. But when you keep that in the forefront, complacency is harder to set in because you're like, this is. This isn't about the dollar amount or, you know, X, Y, and Z. This is about these people. And we always want to be improving, growing, shifting, learning to serve these people. People.
- [65:49]
John Felkins
100%. 100%.
- [65:51]
Lindsay Roman
Oh, my gosh. John, wrapping up. Could you kind of just break down real fast?
- [65:55]
Evie McLeod
Did we cover the fifth stage?
- [65:56]
Lindsay Roman
I don't. Did you.
- [65:58]
John Felkins
Didn't hit it. Legacy builder. Yeah, Legacy builder is when you go to hand your business off after. After you have made it through all the other stages. So succession. You can hand your business off at any stage, but to leave a legacy, you have to have kind of mastered and conquered all the stages before it. And then legal transfer, financial transfer, like, all of that stuff. We could talk about that another day if you want, but there's so. I mean, there's years and years that go. That precede that stage.
- [66:27]
Evie McLeod
I love it.
- [66:28]
Lindsay Roman
Amazing. Well, thank you so much for breaking down all five. I feel like you've given us and our listeners so much to unpack. There's at least three mic drop moments that I was like, okay, your snap moments? Yes, my snap moments that I was like, no, that was like. Like when Val, our girl that makes reels out of these podcasts. Like, this is like, I'm envisioning, like, the mic emoji dropp. Like that. It was so good. So thank you so much for your wisdom. Thank you for being here. I guess, wrapping up. We asked this to. I feel like every one of our guests, but I would love, kind of just with all of that we talked about, in hindsight, what is the biggest lesson that you've learned in business? And how can that apply to all of the different stages and just everything that you teach?
- [67:15]
John Felkins
Gosh, sorry.
- [67:16]
Lindsay Roman
That was a bad.
- [67:17]
Evie McLeod
I know we threw a whammy at you on the spot.
- [67:20]
John Felkins
You know, I kind of got close to this a little earlier when I said it's more a who problem than a what problem. I think the biggest business, a biggest lesson that I have learned in business, and a lot of people a lot smarter than me have said this a lot of different ways. But what. What I am doing, how I am helping people, is only limited. Limited by the work that I'M willing to do on myself. And so it all starts with me. You know, Dave would say I am the problem, I am the solution. And so if the team isn't doing what I want them to do, it's because I haven't communicated or I didn't hire the right team, or if the project is out of whack, it's because I wasn't paying close enough attention. It's just like the mirror is where I have to go to figure out what's wrong with everybody. Everything.
- [68:15]
Evie McLeod
Yeah.
- [68:16]
John Felkins
And that's not, that's not super fun. But, you know, a friend of mine said, like, you, you just can't give to other people what you don't have yourself.
- [68:26]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [68:27]
John Felkins
And so do what it takes to, to work on yourself and become aware and become effective at what you're doing. Doesn't matter what personality you have. Any personality can succeed in leadership, but you have to be willing to, to let your guard down and work on yourself, admit your mistakes and grow as a human being. That's the biggest thing I've learned.
- [68:50]
Lindsay Roman
So good.
- [68:51]
Evie McLeod
Another mic drop. I know threw it out there at the end. So good. John, where can our listeners who's currently listening to this who's like, oh my goodness, I learned so much. I want to learn more. I want to hear more. I want to read even deeper on these five stages of business or learn more. Like, where can they connect with you? Learn more about this on all the things.
- [69:12]
John Felkins
So the 1:1 word answer to that is entre Leadership. If you just search on entre leadership, you're going to get everything. EntreeLeadership.com is our, our website. The, our new book, build a business that you love. You'll be seeing that in airports and all the. It's already on Amazon. All, all the things. You can find that@entreleadership.com we have a podcast where you can hear Dave take people's questions. But if you just. If you go to entree leadership.com or search entree Leadership, you're gonna, you're gonna get more than you ever wanted.
- [69:46]
Lindsay Roman
Amazing.
- [69:47]
John Felkins
That's where we have all the info.
- [69:49]
Evie McLeod
Fire hose of information. We like it.
- [69:51]
Lindsay Roman
John, thank you so much for your time for your wisdom. You just, I mean, I said it like all the mic drop moments. You've given our audience and us so much today. So thank you.
- [70:00]
Evie McLeod
I feel like it's like a, like you just gave like a 50 to 100 year, like lifetime vision as a business owner. Owner.
- [70:06]
Lindsay Roman
Yes. That's a great way to describe it.
- [70:07]
Evie McLeod
I feel like that's life changing as an entrepreneur, because we get so stuck in the this season, the next year or two even, but we forget to kind of look up and be like.
- [70:18]
Lindsay Roman
Hey, bird's eye view.
- [70:19]
Evie McLeod
Yeah. What's. What's the lifeline, the lifetime, I guess, purpose, mission, trajectory of my business over the next 50, 60, 70 years? And I love that you just laid it all out today. So this was amazing. Amazing.
- [70:32]
John Felkins
Well, thank you. I. I hope we help folks. We we believe in people that are in business and want to see them win. So love what y'all are doing and how you're helping folks. And if we can ever, ever do anything for you, you just let us know. Thank you.
- [70:45]
Lindsay Roman
Thank you, John.
- [70:45]
Evie McLeod
We appreciate it.
- [70:57]
Lindsay Roman
Sat.