← The Heart & Hustle Podcast
The Heart & Hustle Podcast
425: How to Work with Second Shooters as the Lead Photographer
00:39:05
On this week’s episode of the Heart and Hustle Podcast we are sitting down and diving into how to work with second shooters as the lead photographer. We covered how you can BE a good second shooter in episode 285, (link below), but today we...
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- [00:01]
A
You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast. We are your hosts, Evie McLeod and Lindsay Roman. Welcome back to another episode, friend. We are so happy you're here. I know we say that a lot, but truly we are just so grateful every time you tune in to this podcast and join us as we grow as business owners and entrepreneurs and human beings. So thank you for being here. Today's episode is going to be a very fun one. We are taking almost the opposite side of a coin that we uncovered what about a year ago, maybe six months.
- [00:32]
B
Ago, something like that.
- [00:34]
A
In the last year ish which was the topic of second shooting. However, the last episode, which was episode 2 85, we covered how to be a good second shooter, how to find those gigs, how to deliver and serve really well. Today we're going to take the opposite side and talk about how to be a good lead shooter. Working with a second shooter, we go into all sorts of tangible takeaways and you're going to get a lot out of it today.
- [00:59]
B
Amazing. So if you are a wedding photographer or a wedding photographer to be this episode is a not skip. So continue to play and we will see you after the theme song. Hey photographer, are you on the struggle bus to find your editing style? Do you feel like you spent hours upon hours on one photo in Lightroom and still don't like the final product you send off to your clients? As photographers ourselves, we can say we feel your pain. We have been there. It can be hard finding an editing style that you love that feels honestly like you.
- [01:29]
A
Yes. And here's the truth of the matter. Every single photographer goes through this. Everyone struggles at one point or other in finding and honing in on their perfect style. And that is perfectly normal. But today we do not want you to stay stuck. Which is why we wanna chat through our top eight pieces of advice to discover the editing style that makes you and your clients hearts sing. Visit theheartuniversity.com style to utilize our eight tips to nail your editing style.
- [02:04]
B
Hey hey. I'm Lindsay Roman.
- [02:06]
A
And I'm Evie McLeod and we are family and legacy focused serial entrepreneurs and the founders of the Hart University, a business education company with a mission to help you thrive in your business and life.
- [02:17]
B
Welcome to our Entrepreneur Cocktail hour where business and marketing strategies meet faith, real talk and raw in life changing conversations.
- [02:24]
A
At the end of the day, we are all in this together figuring out how to navigate the ups and downs, the messy and the beautiful and everything in between. This is a community where you can come as you Are get inspired and walk away equipped to build a legacy filled life.
- [02:38]
B
You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast. All right, welcome to the show, everyone. I don't know what that was. I have a goal on the show. It's like I haven't verbalized it until now, and it's like, how many different weird, wacky ways can I start the show? That was one of them.
- [03:04]
A
Have you been trying to do that? Is this. Did you just come up with this?
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B
I think I just came up with it.
- [03:09]
A
Okay.
- [03:09]
B
I was, like, so actively thinking about, like, all the weird ways that I've started.
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A
Oh, my gosh.
- [03:15]
B
The last episode that we recorded, I was saying, Evelyn, it was a great time.
- [03:18]
A
That was a hoot. Anyways, anyways, today's topic, in case you skipped the intro. Don't skip the intro, friend. We keep them short and sweet, but they're juicy. There's good information in there. Today we're talking about being a good lead shooter, working with second shooters, how to find them, how to work well with them, communication with them, all sorts of stuff like that.
- [03:36]
B
If you are here and you're actively trying to find gigs to be a second shooter, like, so you're on the I want to be a second shooter vibe or end of the spectrum. Go listen to episode two 85. That's a deep dive on basically how to be the best second shooter you could possibly be and how to get that episode. We're going to focus more on how to be a great lead and how to lead second shooters well. Or how to find second shooters.
- [03:58]
A
Yes. I will also say even if you are a second shooter, you may still learn some great things from here.
- [04:02]
B
Oh, yes, yes. Go back and listen to that one. But also listen to this one.
- [04:05]
A
Yes. A hundred percent. Okay, we're going to start off. We're going to keep today's episode short and sweet to the point we're going to start off with how to find good second shooters, where to look. What are your thoughts, Lindsay?
- [04:15]
B
So my first thought is I, I. This might seem obvious and some of these might seem obvious, but the best place, in my opinion, the place that I go to first, is referrals. So if you have any photographer friends in the industry that you trust and that, you know, if they have second shooters that they recommend, like, I immediately.
- [04:30]
A
Want to work with you.
- [04:32]
B
Oh, yeah. Low key.
- [04:33]
A
I feel like our number one. My number one choice is like, yeah. Each other. She points. She points to me. Yeah. If I can get Lindsay second shooting with me at a Wedding. That's my favorite. But I will also say any other like photographer friends, like if you're not available, you're shooting a wedding, whatever. Like anyone that I just know and love, I will ask them first. Like, hey, do you have any interest? Are you already booked? Do you want to work this date with me?
- [04:55]
B
Right, right. So whether you're asking your friends directly or you're asking them for referrals. Yeah, because there is another element that if the friend is also a full time wedding photographer, they're probably busy on the weekends that you would need possibly a second. Um. And so look at photography friend referrals. The other place I would recommend is if you have any sort of. Even if you don't have a huge following, I would still post on Instagram. Like you never know who's following you, especially in your local city. Like you might have other photographers that are people that are wanting to get into photography that are following you. So post on Instagram to ask about.
- [05:30]
A
Second shirt on your stories.
- [05:32]
B
Post on your stories. Yeah, that's what I mean by Instagram. Technically. You could technically make it a post, but I don't know if I would quite do that. But you could. I would also look in any photography Facebook groups. Yeah, those are like going to be your prime. So any, like you could ask in the Heart and Hustle podcast Facebook group. You could ask in any other photography Facebook groups that you have. Whether they're like global type of groups or they're city specific. I would do both. I really like having second shooters in my city that I know of that are, are available. But I also like knowing of like good options the country, especially if you're a destination photographer. Yeah, that's, that's like my go to. I almost always try to find a second shooter in the city that I'm going to. Yeah, not always, but especially if they're like local and they know the venue or they know just the, the vibes in general. I want, I want local versus somebody else.
- [06:24]
A
I just, I was going to be like, also, you know, I will fly like, or have a second shooter. Somebody who's like really wanting to get into destination work and lives in a different city. If they've like pitched themselves really hard and well to me before, I, I will let them fly with like to me or whatever. And like usually that's like a coaching student though that I like know them really well. And then I was like, actually we both like a lot of our second shooters.
- [06:46]
B
I can't, we can't say this Explicitly for all photographers that are educators, but for us, if I have the choice, and Evie, too, this is what basically she was saying. If we have the choice between somebody that's absolutely qualified in every way, shape or form versus somebody that's also absolutely qualified in every way, shape or form, but has also invested in either coaching or a course or a workshop or a conference of ours, I'm going to choose the person who's already invested every single time.
- [07:10]
A
Yeah.
- [07:10]
B
Not that that's a plug to, like, come to a workshop or coach with us, but.
- [07:14]
A
But also low key. Could be. I will say I love working with past coaching students, and it is such an incredible opportunity to, like, continue education together.
- [07:21]
B
And I don't think I've ever at this point, chosen a second shooter that hasn't. Cause there's just so many options of past students that I'm like, I'm gonna choose them over somebody that. Yeah, it don't. The one way to not do it. This is. Okay, I'm diving back and I think we shared this, but it just brings up the rage of somebody that asks to second shoot, they don't follow me.
- [07:43]
A
And, like, they just send a random.
- [07:44]
B
DM and they're like, they'll send a DM and they don't follow me. And they're like, anytime you need a second shooter, I'm here. And I'm like, absolutely not.
- [07:51]
A
That's the worst way to pitch it. If you want to know how to pitch yourself as a second shooter, go listen to episode 285. We talked about it there. Yeah. Okay. One other place to look for second shooters.
- [08:01]
B
Say this.
- [08:01]
A
Yeah, I'll just dive. Just really quick. There is a company called Second Society. It's a website. I think they've actually had an ad here on our podcast before. They're super cool. Um, and they basically. It's a whole, like, society. Like, I was gonna say, like, referral program, but, like, not. It's like a Craigslist for second shooters.
- [08:20]
B
But that's. It makes it sound bad. No, it's not bad.
- [08:22]
A
It's not bad. Facebook marketplace of second shooters. You know what I mean? Like, it's like literally like a whole forum, a repertoire of second shooters and leads and places that you, as a second shooter can look for gigs. It's awesome. Go check them out. Second Society, we love them.
- [08:37]
B
So if you are needing a second, go post. And yes, you could possibly find a great.
- [08:41]
A
You can bet. Based on gear they have and where they're located and experience levels, different things like that so that's awesome. So where to look? We gave you a list. Things to vet in a second shooter. Now this is one thing that I think is somewhat of a big deal. When you're looking for a second shooter, don't just be like, oh, someone with a camera. No. Actually pay attention to are they the right fit for what you need and what you're looking for. So a couple of things that I highly recommend with this. Ask for and view full galleries of theirs. Do not just look at their Instagram and their highlights. As a lead photographer, it is your responsibility to ensure that they have the capabilities to go a full wedding day and you know what that full wedding day looks like and what, you know.
- [09:25]
B
What the dance shots look like. You know what they're capable of with detail shots, low light rooms. What's it called? Lineup.
- [09:33]
A
Yeah. And I will also say there are times.
- [09:35]
B
Groom party. That's not what they're called.
- [09:37]
A
Wedding party. Yeah, but the groom.
- [09:39]
B
Yeah, I guess English is not English. I was like, groom's party. That's not what they're called.
- [09:46]
A
Groomsmen, the wedding party, whatever.
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B
Yeah.
- [09:50]
A
I just think seeing a full gallery and there will be times where I've had especially in the past when I wasn't shooting like really expensive weddings, like high end weddings where you know, I was paying like whatever $200 to a second shooter and it wasn't super big deal and somebody would be like, hey, I haven't shot my own wedding before, but I have second shot several. Here's the gallery of just second shooting. Still gives me a really good idea as the lead photographer. So it doesn't have to be that, oh my gosh, they are the number one photographer in the world. This gallery, I've never seen anything like it. Like if there's second shooting, there's a chance they're still in a learning phase. Regardless of where that's at, you know, that can range.
- [10:29]
B
But as the main photographer, it's helpful to look through those galleries of people that are presenting work to you and kind of seeing what style matches your own. Even if obviously the editing style is different. It's just you can kind of tell from their full galleries how they shoot and you know, if things are in focus. Their eye. Yeah.
- [10:48]
A
The composition, creativity, like what's their storytelling perspective and not only their skills, but just like does their eye align with yours and what you're wanting to deliver to your clients?
- [11:00]
B
Sure. The next thing that I usually look for that you should probably look for is gear list. This is kind of an important one. I based on what gear you have, I always like to make sure that ideally my seconds have specific lenses and specific even bodies. Like, so I am a Canon shooter. I usually would always want to shoot with Canon shooters just so it the color profile. Color profile matches. I have seconded or I have used seconds before that shot Nikon and it wasn't that big of a deal. So it's not a complete hit or miss or a complete deal breaker. But that's again your choice as a lead photographer to make on. But be specific whenever you're doing these like posts or you know, second shooter calls or whatever you want to call them, like make sure if that is a priority to you then to say like only, you know, Canon or only Nikon users aloud or whatever you want to say. But ask for their gear list if they didn't already give it. Just so you know, their lens lineup in retrospect to your own, like I.
- [11:55]
A
And your bodies, like, are they shooting a crop sensor or full frame? Are they shooting mirrorless? Are they, you know, what are they shooting? How many camera bodies do they have? Do they have a backup of any sort? Like there's a lot of stuff.
- [12:05]
B
Well, because I think even at the end of the day, if your cameras all went kerflunk on a wedding day, their bodies are your backup.
- [12:12]
A
So it's like even if you have backups, let's. Let's say worst case scenario, every one of yours failed. Do they have more than one? You know?
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B
Yeah.
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A
And that's obviously that's up to you. And do you actually need to have like seven backups? Whatever. Right, right. Maybe not. But that just your list will tell you a lot. Too true. And then one of the last things I would say with like vetting is really getting to know or asking your second shooters their experience. So how many years have they been a photographer? How many weddings have they shot? Have they shot before or have they lead shot before? Like just really getting to know, like where are they at? What's their experience level? That'll tell you a lot too.
- [12:51]
B
It's true. Okay, so that was kind of what we look for in how to vet a second shooter. So now we're going to go through the prep work. Okay, so you've picked a second shooter. You're in contract with them or. Well, we'll get to that. But you, you've picked like how to.
- [13:05]
A
Work well with them.
- [13:06]
B
Yeah, how to work well with them and how to like prep for the day of together. So in my opinion In Evie's opinion. Both of our opinions.
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A
We are united on our opinion.
- [13:15]
B
We are united on our opinions. 95. I think of the prep work on how to have a great relationship with a second shooter is done before the wedding day.
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A
Yeah.
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B
It's in the prep work. So you cannot overdo this point. Communicate everything over. Communicate things like you want to make sure that your communication is so just in sync. And they are. Have ex. They have expectations set to them so that they know.
- [13:41]
A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah.
- [13:42]
A
Of everything.
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B
So some things that you can do. Create vision boards. If there is a specific shooting style that you have in your business and your brand that you're wanting them to try to emulate and come on board with that, I would send vision boards.
- [13:53]
A
Or one thing I will do too, is if my clients. I have my clients create vision boards for their wedding. Their. The photos that they love, the style they love, whatever it is. And I will send that to my second shooter so that my second shooter and I are 100 on the same page of what this client is specifically wanting for their wedding.
- [14:08]
B
100%. Other thing is if there's any, like, information or questionnaires or back and forth notes of any kind from you and the client, the couple, then send those and forward all of those to your second so they are completely up to date as if it were their own wedding. Like the questionnaires. Any, like, details that the bride said, like, especially the questionnaires. I feel like that tells you a lot. Especially if your questionnaire has, you know, the good questions, like, you know, what are the moments that if I missed you would be devastated. Or, you know, like, yeah, if you.
- [14:37]
A
Could only have five photos from your wedding, what would those five photos be? Right. That tells your second. You and your second shooter a lot.
- [14:43]
B
Right. I also like to just. If I'm taking notes during, like, client consult calls or like, hey, this is how they met, this how they fell in love. Just so the second has, like, the briefest of backstory. It's not like they need to know your couple as intimately as you do, but I think it's still helpful to.
- [14:57]
A
Yeah.
- [14:57]
B
Give them information. And especially from the second shooter side, it's helpful going into a wedding, like, knowing a little bit about who you're shooting so you can help tell their story to the fullest as well.
- [15:06]
A
100.
- [15:06]
B
Yeah.
- [15:07]
A
Okay. One of the other prep work pieces that you have to have in place. Have to, have to, have to, have to. Is always, always, always, always, always have a contract. Always have a contract with your second shooters. The contract should include items such as your payment agreement, like how much are you paying them? When are you paying them? How are you paying them? Is it cash? PayPal, bank transfer, you know what's going on, the number of hours, the scope of work which would, would probably fall under the number of hours. A non solicitation clause which is essentially like they can't go at your wedding and be handing out their own business.
- [15:41]
B
Cards to like they're a representative of you, whatever your business name is. Yeah.
- [15:46]
A
It also establishes them as an independent contractor that they're not an employee for of you, most likely depending on your business model. But 9 and point 9 times out of 10 they're going to be an independent contractor. So it establishes that a non disparagement clause which is basically just protecting you and your business if they, you know, are like I second shot with them and I got upset because they wouldn't let me hand out my business cards. So I'm going to go and bash them everywhere, you know, so it covers you legally. There's all sorts of liabilities and just different things. The confidentiality clause, like they can't reveal backend things. Like if you're sending them your questionnaires and processes with your clients, they can't pull in and like copy and send that to all their friends and whatever. Like so there's a lot of stuff within the legalities of a contract. Obviously you probably understand as a business owner, as a photographer, the importance of having a contract. So I'm not going to harp on that too much. But please, please, please, please, please, please, please. If you do not have a contract in place for your second shooters, please get one now.
- [16:43]
B
Even if it's your best friend.
- [16:44]
A
Yes, please. I would have you sign one.
- [16:46]
B
Yeah, same.
- [16:47]
A
So get one now. We highly recommend our girl, the legal page for all of her contracts. But she also has an amazing second shooter one we'll put the link in the show notes. We have a code with her if you want a discount. We just love Paige and her contracts. So that's a quick little life saving, time saving trick is to use one of her templates which is solid, rock solid. And we'll save your butt. Hello. I wanted to interrupt this episode really quick to remind you that we have an apparel shop with heart filled pieces. See what we did there that we have designed with you in mind.
- [17:26]
B
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- [17:35]
A
This collection is for you. If you love the show and want to share it with your friends in a cool way. Or if you want to wear something cute as heck that was intentionally designed with powerful phrases to remind you that you can do it, you were made to be a world changer and that the Lord created you wildly capable of big freaking things.
- [17:53]
B
Now Obvi, this is a podcast and we can't show you how cute as heck these pieces are on the show. So run, don't walk to the heart shop to check out our apparel and more. You can head to www.theheartuniversity.com appare to grab your favorite pieces.
- [18:08]
A
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B
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A
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- [19:00]
B
We promise Honeybook will revolutionize your business the way it has ours. In addition to a free seven day trial, we have an exclusive offer for our podcast listeners. 35% off the first two years. All you have to do is go to share.honeybook.comheart and claim your discount. That's share.honeybook.com heart or you can check out the link in our show notes. The other thing that I would say to kind of plan in advance before the actual wedding day is how photos are going to be captured I. E. Like on SD cards and how the transfer of that will happen. So are you. Is your second gonna use only your SD cards also are they gonna bring their own SD cards?
- [19:41]
A
Can I jump in?
- [19:42]
B
Yeah.
- [19:43]
A
I would also say clarify if your second shooter. This is why you asked for gear list. Are they shooting on dual cards? Yeah, because that's also this kind of aligns in with like you're saying SD cards.
- [19:55]
B
Oh well memory cards but that's I just call all SD cards memory cards or sorry, I call all memory cards SD cards even though some of them.
- [20:03]
A
Are CF cards and also they're now like the flash CF which is for the mirrorless. Yeah, there's all sorts of things but yeah, basically communicating like are they shooting on their memory cards or your memory cards? If they have dual slots, are they shooting on one of theirs, one of yours?
- [20:19]
B
That's what I would. So yeah, it's in a perfect world if, especially if you are not going to the same location that evening. Like, like what I mean by that is like if you both have a hotel room and it's a destination wedding, then at that point I don't necessarily care if they're shooting on all my cards or even all their cards because when we get back to the hotel room after the wedding we can download and both have copies of whatever. But I think the best way to do it would be to have what she said is dual slot where they're shooting on one of their cards and then one of mine. And so quite literally after the wedding we can. And we both have copies of everything.
- [20:55]
A
I will also say this is something you need to decide as the lead photographer as well. Does your second shooter get access to the images after the wedding? Right, because a lot of photographers don't allow second shooters to have access to any of the photos. They come, they're paid for the day of to shoot and and hand over the photos at the end of the day. A lot of photographers however allow second shooters to have access to build portfolio to, you know, share those after a certain amount of time.
- [21:22]
B
Well, and I think this, this you would need to decide this and then put it in the contract of how you would like to.
- [21:27]
A
You also need to communicate it because in my opinion if you're hiring a second shooter to come and shoot and not get access to the photos, I.
- [21:35]
B
Think you want to know that.
- [21:36]
A
Pay more.
- [21:36]
B
Yeah.
- [21:37]
A
Then, then if they're also getting photos.
- [21:39]
B
Because at that point they're only getting experience which is only half of why you would want a second and, and.
- [21:45]
A
A paycheck at the end of the night.
- [21:46]
B
Oh well, yeah for, but we forgot about that.
- [21:50]
A
But I'm not, not that you don't pay your second shooters. Dang. Well even if they get the photos because that's my state like opinion. But if, if I now were to go and second shoot for somebody, which is very rare, I'm getting paid a top dollar and I don't really care that much if you want to keep all the photos for whatever reason. Like, that's fine, but like, there's. There's photographers out there who are like, hey, you don't get to use the photos, but I'm gonna pay you a premium because of that. Like, yeah, you don't get an extra perk.
- [22:17]
B
I've also. So you get to decide this as the main shooter. But even if they get the photos immediately after, so they shoot on, like one of their SD cards or one of yours or both, and they get the photos immediately, like following the wedding day, I would still have something in your clause if they can use the photos in any way for their own portfolio. I would have a closet. And a lot of people do this however they want indifferently, but have a clause where they can't post or use them beyond a certain day. Usually what people do is beyond a.
- [22:48]
A
Certain day or until a certain day.
- [22:50]
B
That's what I mean.
- [22:50]
A
Okay.
- [22:51]
B
Beyond until a certain. That's what I mean. Yeah, whatever you said.
- [22:56]
A
Like, until a certain day.
- [22:57]
B
They're not allowed to post or share those photos until a specific day. Usually that day is once the gallery has been delivered to the client.
- [23:05]
A
I believe I have it 30 days past, got my client gallery delivery, which is usually two months after the wedding. Right.
- [23:10]
B
And the reason for doing that is so that they're not immediately after the wedding going and posting them on the Internet. And it's. It can get confusing, especially before a gallery has been delivered, because whether the clients come to the second shooter or whether guests even that want photos come to, like, it can just get confusing because you are the established hired photographer and they are like an extension of your team. And if they're immediately posting photos, it can just get clunky and a little bit messy for people that aren't in the industry that don't understand that. Another clause that a lot of people do that I would recommend is once they do get to post those photos, do not tag the couple and don't tag any vendors. You can lighten that and change that if you want. Because I know sometimes from the second shooter perspective, it's almost nice to be able to have portfolio from weddings, especially with other vendors, to get connections in and like, tag and make it look more like, hey, I'm a photographer. I've shot real weddings, which you have. So that's more on. On you to make that decision if you want them to be tagged or not. I think that the idea is that they're not. Not if they're not tagging the. Especially the Couple or the vendors. It's more like it's because then they're tagging something and it's showing up as their business. And it could be confusing because it's like wait, didn't I hire or didn't I work with this photographer for that wedding? It can just get a little clunky.
- [24:26]
A
Yeah, 100%. So make sure you have a contract in place. Make sure you have a plan of the transfer of photos. There are other ways that some people do it. Like, like you as the main shooter, keep the second shooter's memory cards and you import them and then you ship them back to them. Or you'll have your second shooter transfer them to you digitally via like we transfer or something like that. I personally do not recommend either one of those.
- [24:49]
B
Especially if you. That's just so long.
- [24:52]
A
Uploading takes forever and mailing memory cards is always a risk. So I don't recommend either one. But I have done both in the past 12 years, 10 years of full time photography. I have experienced both. But just plan that in advance, communicate that with your second shooter and kind of like have a plan within that. One of the other things is like in, in the prep work is communicating like your day of expectations with your second shooter. So for example, how do you shoot with a second like especially on this wedding, but also just in general, like whatever the scenario is, do you split up? Are they going to the bridesmaids, you're going to the groomsman, vice versa, do you want them shooting whatever you're not shooting or do you want them getting different angles of exactly what you're shooting or you know, does that change throughout the day depending on if it's a certain event or you know, cocktail hour, whatever, Communicate that. Do you have any requirements of attire? Do you want them wearing all black? Do you want them wearing a specific closed toe shoe, you know, or like please wear, I don't know, business professional, like wear a suit or you know, whatever it is. Like how what. Do you have any requirements of what they wear that also will probably and should be, in my opinion in your contract? Pretty much all of it should. What time do you want them to arrive? What time do you want them to depart? Communicating, all of that. Do you have any requirements for camera settings? This is one thing that when I the first few years of business where he was second shooters, I really didn't like think of and didn't communicate until.
- [26:24]
B
You get into the editing, until you.
- [26:25]
A
Get into a situation where you're like, oh shoot, I should have communicated this.
- [26:29]
B
It makes editing hell if like you, you do auto white balance and they shoot in Kelvin or vice versa.
- [26:35]
A
Yep.
- [26:35]
B
Or anything of the sort. It's just. It's a headache, I guess. Another thing on that point that we didn't really mention on the morning of the wedding day. Sync your dang cameras.
- [26:45]
A
Oh, I didn't think.
- [26:46]
B
Your dang cameras.
- [26:47]
A
Yep.
- [26:47]
B
You will thank me later if you forget. Well, no, if you do this and you haven't done this, you'll thank me later because it.
- [26:54]
A
Basically there are ways to go in and post and reorganize them and get them in the right time order.
- [26:59]
B
Just if you don't sync them when you upload them into Lightroom or whatever your system you're using and they're not and you sort them by like time of day or time captured. Yeah. If it's not synced to the correct time and like the same time zone and all that stuff, they're going to be all over the place and then you have to manually like drag and drop. It's annoying.
- [27:18]
A
Yeah. So sync your cameras. One other thing that I would communicate very clearly of the day of expectations is do you have any max settings? For example, do you have an like a cutoff of highest ISO that you're willing for yourself to shoot at and therefore you want to communicate to your client like your second shooter? Are you lowest shutter speed? This is one that I would highly recommend. Again, it may seem obvious of like, yeah, please don't go below 1 over 200, 1 over 250 or 1 over.
- [27:51]
B
160 or whatever unless you're doing slow shutter intentionally.
- [27:54]
A
Yeah, shutter drag. For whatever reason, you may think that's obvious, but I've just experienced in the past years and years and years ago with a second shooter where I couldn't use any ceremony photos from the second shooter because they dropped their shutter speed too low. So I now always communicate with any new, specifically newer or less experienced second shooter who hasn't worked with me before. I'm like, hey, this may feel offensive for me to say, but I'm just going to get it out there. Please do not go below this shutter speed. Please do not go above this ISO that just like, I just make sure, like, hey, for. For larger groups, if you're shooting cocktail hour, please like vary your aperture. I want some that are very wide aperture for the detail shots. I really want this. I want to capture the depth. I also love, you know, the bokeh in the background on some. So please vary between 15 and 2.
- [28:44]
B
Yeah.
- [28:44]
A
And I like, communicate that. And I know that's like, that may feel like, but you, I don't think.
- [28:49]
B
I don't think you can over communicate enough.
- [28:51]
A
No, like, like, no, especially a dang good second shooter will be thrilled to have all of this information. They will not feel controlled. They will not feel like put in a box. They'll be like, oh, my gosh, I have clarity.
- [29:03]
B
And if they have issues, then don't work. Yeah, don't work with them.
- [29:08]
A
It's not a good fit.
- [29:09]
B
I would say the last piece to prep them for a wedding day is talking to them about how you want them to interact with the guests, with the wedding party, with the bride and groom, even basically, like, like, how to be an extension of you and your business. Like, the best second shooters that I've worked with, like, they've asked me the morning of or even the night before of just like, hey, how can I best serve you in the sense of like, how, like what, how like, do you want me to, like, be joking with the bridal party and like, like, what's your personality on the day of? Do you want me to be an extension of that? Do you not care how, like, my personality is? Or like, how would you like me to be? Or how would you like me to even, like, do you want me to go out of my way to talk to like, the family or talk to other vendors? Or would you like me to be silent and just like, follow your lead? Like, what, what do you love? And I really love that. And so even if a second shooter is not doing that and asking you those questions, I would still kind of be upfront and explain kind of the demeanor that you would love your second shooter to have on a wedding day.
- [30:08]
A
100%, I love it. Okay. On the wedding day. The wedding day has arrived. You've done all that prep work that was all prep work. Just in case you forgot, all of that was in advance, which is why we're saying 95% of the job is in advance. But on the wedding day, once drive, guess what I'm going to say? Communicate, Communicate. Communicate. Communicate. Communicate over and over and over. Um, I really don't think you can over communicate with a good second shooter. Um, tell them exactly what you're thinking throughout the day, exactly what you need, exactly where you want them, how you want an area or a moment documented. Um, shoot, I, I personally, I hope, I think my second shooters love working with me. At least that's what I've heard. Um, but I will genuinely be like, can you Go grab that. Have you gotten this yet? Okay, wait, we need to grab this. Like, I, I don' the wedding day. Like, oh, am I being too bossy? Like, no, I'm communicating with them. Like, hey, I'm going to run over here and grab this. Can you snatch this photo of like, this or whatever? Like, I'm chatting it up the entire day with my second shooter and telling them every thought that's going through my head of, like, what do you think here? I'll even ask my second shooter's opinions and thoughts and run ideas by them. Can you go scout for this? I'm going to go scout for this. You finish shooting, you know, the bridesmaids getting ready, whatever it is. Communicate, communicate, communicate. Um, there is no such thing as over communicating on a wedding day with a good second shooter. I think that just makes the experience better for both of you.
- [31:29]
B
Yeah. You'll notice that there's not much to say on the wedding day because you did all the prep work, so. All the prep work, like, it's coming to fruition on the wedding day.
- [31:36]
A
I will say the one thing is sync your cameras on the wedding day.
- [31:39]
B
Oh, yeah, I counted that as prep work, but technically that's on the wedding day.
- [31:42]
A
Yeah, probably.
- [31:43]
B
Well, I guess. Yeah, whatever. Anyways, okay. After the wedding day or night of. Or. Or after, just basically the wedding is over and we have completed the project. Now what? Make to pay them promptly. That's just a nice thing to do. Don't like, leave it hanging for weeks and weeks. Pay them that night or the morning after.
- [32:01]
A
Advance. Then make sure you pay them. Yeah, very quickly after.
- [32:03]
B
Yeah, so pay them. And then I would send them a huge thank you as well. This is just like nice boss activity for all employees. Even though they're not employee, they're an independent contractor still, I would treat them like an extension of you and they served you on that day. And so thank them profusely, whether that's with like a small gift or even just like a genuine thank you. And in that thank you, I would even can share like and praise them for the specific things that they did that you noticed on the wedding day that you really appreciated. Especially if you want a working relationship with them and you want to shoot with them again and you loved them. Like, praise them and make sure that, like, you do things to make the experience of them working with you amazing so that they want to do it again. So prompt payment and actually like praising them and sharing all the good things on the caveat end of that. If they're if they didn't do a good job or if. If they did a good job or they. What?
- [32:55]
A
Or if they've asked for feedback.
- [32:57]
B
Yeah. Or if they, like.
- [32:57]
A
A lot of second shooters do.
- [32:59]
B
Yes. Or. Or even if they, like, did something that kind of rubbed you the wrong way or not even to say that in a drama way, but, like, in a way that's like, oh, I don't really love that. Like, your example of, like, oh, she shot the ceremony.
- [33:10]
A
Yeah.
- [33:10]
B
At, like, 1 over 100, and now all the images are blurry. I. If she does that again, I can't work with her. But if I give her a critique, maybe I. I could work with her again. Something like that. If there is any critique after the wedding that you would like to give them, I would do that gracefully. And, you know, honestly, compliment sandwich, compliment. We love a compliment.
- [33:29]
A
Say a really nice thing. Give the honest feedback gently, and say another really nice thing to wrap it up.
- [33:35]
B
Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm. I'm thinking of, like, something that is common that I. I think it's. I don't know if I've had second shooters do this per se, but I've noticed that, like, for a second shooter, the prime goal other than experience and a paycheck is to get portfolio. That's the main reason why people want to do it. They want good shots, but in my opinion, a really good second shooter, if they're serving you and the client the best, they are supplementary to whatever you're doing as the main photographer. And typically, the main photographer is getting the money shots. The money shots, the first kiss from the center of the aisle, the couple portraits at sunset. And, like, depending on the timeline, I've had situations where I had a wedding where during, like, the sunset portraits, the couple had wanted the. The. I think the father of the bride. They lived on this, like, big ranch estate, and they owned, like, a bajillion old vintage cars. And the father of the bride or somebody in the family or wedding party was giving tours to the guest in this garage for all of the vintage cars, which was, like, a fun experience for the guests. And I don't know why, but they wanted photos of that tour. And I was like, okay, well, that's happening at the same time as the couple of golden hour photos. So I'm sorry, second shooter. You are. You're gonna. That's your priority right now. And if you get that done, then you can come join us. And she did, and it was fabulous. But she prioritized that first. So even though That's a good example of, like, even though that's not the money shot, you're not gonna use that in your portfolio. Can guarantee you, but you're still doing a good job serving. So, like, I don't know, things like that I'm always looking forward to.
- [35:12]
A
Like.
- [35:12]
B
Like, if I told my second shooter to do that and she didn't have an attitude about that, I'm like, okay, great. I want to work with her again. Like, I'm paying attention to things like that. But if, like, I notice that, you know, they're. They're just, like, trying to shoot right behind me so that they get the money shot, they're, in my opinion, prioritizing their own desires above me and the.
- [35:31]
A
Bride, which I want to say, when I first started out, I probably did same. Like, there is just an element that like. Like, you just don't understand at first.
- [35:42]
B
Well. And you want to get good shots.
- [35:43]
A
Yeah.
- [35:44]
B
But it's like, the best shots are the shots that are going to be, like, supplementary to the gallery for that couple, 100%.
- [35:51]
A
But, like, if you're just starting, that's. That's why, like, giving them good feedback might be really helpful of you being like, hey, I noticed this. I really love working with you. I'd really love to continue working with you, but the only way that's going to happen is if you're willing to shoot in a complimentary fashion to me, versus trying to get the shots I'm already getting. So communicating. But sending after the wedding, like, sending an email or a text or however you want to communicate with your second shooter. Sending them a thank you, letting them know how appreciated it was. One thing I do with my second shooters that I just think I personally, when I second shoot for anyone, I just. It's so nice to hear that you did a good job on the actual final photos, too. Not just the day of, but to be like, I got what you needed.
- [36:42]
B
Yeah.
- [36:43]
A
So something that I do whenever I'm calling through images or editing is I will send my second shooters, like, specific photos or something and be like, I'm screaming, this is so good. Like, you nailed this shot. Like, I can't tell you how much this is adding to the gallery. Like, thank you for doing this. Um, obviously, like, especially if they did a dang good job, I will rave to them about how good of a job they did. But it's more than just like, a simple, like, thank you so much. You were so amazing yesterday. I appreciate that so much. Like, I'll always do that. With second shooters. Um, but if I've noticed, they went above and beyond. They got really creative with some shots. They captured a moment that I didn't even know happened on the wedding day that was, like, behind me around the corner. I had no way of seeing it. And they were so alert, head on a swivel the whole time, that they captured moments I didn't even know occurred. Like, I will send, like, follow ups to my second shooter to be like, thank you. This was so good. I can't tell you how appreciative I am. You are amazing. You nailed it. And I just think that's just really good as a lead photographer, to be like, you got the shots that I didn't even know I needed. Like, that's high praise. That feels so good. As a second shooter who poured your heart and soul and worked hours alongside them to be like, I did good. That just feels great. So.
- [37:55]
B
All right, well, so in review, you. It's great to be a lead shooter, and second shooters make our job so much easier, and they make just our galleries more full, and it's just such a blessing to have them on a wedding day. But, you know, you also want to find good ones and you want to prep them as well as you can. So hopefully this episode gave you a lot to think about and a lot of ways to find them and also prep them and have an amazing second shooter experience on your wedding days and hopefully find people that you love working with again and again and again. So, again, if you've listened to this episode and you haven't listened to the previous episode, was it 285?
- [38:33]
A
285.
- [38:34]
B
285 was the previous episode from the second shooter side. So on that one, again, we share a bunch of ways to be a great second shooter. So just like the opposite coin of this episode. Yeah.
- [38:45]
A
All right, friend, go kill it, and we'll see you on the next episode.