426: Creating a Powerhouse Photography Team of Associates with Ryan and Heidi of Forged in the North

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Heart & Hustle Podcast | Episode 426: Creating a Powerhouse Photography Team of Associates with Ryan and Heidi of Forged in the North

Hosts: Evie McLeod & Lindsey Roman
Guests: Ryan and Heidi, Founders of Forged in the North
Release Date: March 25, 2025

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1. Introduction to Ryan and Heidi

Evie McLeod [00:00]:
Evie welcomes listeners to an informative episode tailored for photographers considering team expansion, associate programs, or starting a studio. She introduces Ryan and Heidi, the powerhouse duo behind Forged in the North, a renowned New York City-based photography studio with over 15 years in the wedding industry.

2. Building Forged in the North

Ryan [07:38]:
Ryan shares their journey from architecture students to full-time photographers. "We decided to make that jump from full-time architects to full-time photography. Wow. And that was the same year we founded Forged in the North."

Heidi [08:35]:
Heidi discusses the evolution of their studio's name, emphasizing a desire to build a team of equals rather than a traditional husband-wife setup. "We wanted something memorable and different from the typical light and airy names."

Ryan [09:22]:
Ryan elaborates on the naming inspiration, blending their northern roots. "Forge in the North represents the forging of our partnership and our backgrounds from Chicago and New York."

3. Expansion: Introducing After it All

Ryan [13:42]:
Ryan introduces their sister company, After it All, created to address high demand and offer services at a lower price point. "After it All emerged out of a supply and demand situation."

Heidi [14:18]:
Heidi explains that After it All serves clients who may find Forged in the North too expensive or unavailable, thereby increasing their overall booking capacity. "It solves the availability problem at a lower price point."

4. Business Models and Payment Structures

Ryan [27:28]:
Ryan outlines the distinct payment structures for both studios. Forged in the North takes a fixed admin fee of $1,200 per booking, averaging 10-15% of the invoice. "Forge is about marketing and our brand, constantly strengthening it."

Heidi [28:22]:
Heidi details After it All's model, where shooters are paid an hourly rate, allowing flexibility and scalability. "It's more of a traditional approach, ensuring shooters have autonomy."

5. Team Building and Management

Heidi [25:00]:
Heidi emphasizes the importance of finding talented individuals who align with their studio's values. "Everyone on our team has been developing into such incredibly talented artists."

Ryan [35:28]:
Ryan highlights their selective hiring process, valuing long-term relationships over short-term gains. "We've been able to build a cohesive team where everyone grows together."

6. Handling Client Relations and Challenges

Heidi [43:19]:
Heidi addresses the stigma associated with associate shooter models, advocating for transparency and quality. "We wanted to redefine the bad perceptions by building a reputable and ethical model."

Ryan [53:01]:
Ryan shares strategies for managing difficult clients, emphasizing empathy and proactive solutions. "If a bride feels something went wrong, we respond with understanding and offer to make it right."

7. Key Insights and Lessons Learned

Evie McLeod [71:33]:
Evie underscores the foundational importance of integrity and kindness in client interactions. "The foundational piece is the heart posture, the character, the integrity."

Heidi [67:34]:
Heidi reflects on the value of learning from failures and adapting strategies accordingly. "All of the failures we've had have been a growing experience."

8. Advice for Aspiring Photography Studio Owners

Heidi [65:42]:
Heidi advises utilizing word-of-mouth and formal job postings to find suitable associates. "Put the word out there with planners, other photographers, and even through platforms like Reddit and Facebook."

Ryan [72:26]:
Ryan emphasizes the importance of flexibility and supporting associates' individual goals. "We take into account how many weddings they want to shoot and adjust accordingly."

9. Final Thoughts

Heidi [73:05]:
Heidi concludes by highlighting the success and longevity of their team members, attributing it to their ethical and supportive business model. "Paul and Ben have been with us for 10 years, which says a lot about our approach."

Ryan [73:37]:
Ryan reflects on the seamless integration and mutual growth within their teams, reinforcing the strength of their business structure.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ryan [07:38]: "We decided to make that jump from full-time architects to full-time photography. Wow. And that was the same year we founded Forged in the North."

• Heidi [09:27]: "We wanted something memorable and different from the typical light and airy names."

• Ryan [27:28]: "Forge is about marketing and our brand, constantly strengthening it."

• Heidi [43:19]: "We wanted to redefine the bad perceptions by building a reputable and ethical model."

• Evie McLeod [71:33]: "The foundational piece is the heart posture, the character, the integrity."

• Heidi [65:42]: "Put the word out there with planners, other photographers, and even through platforms like Reddit and Facebook."

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Conclusion:

In this episode, Ryan and Heidi provide a comprehensive look into building and managing a successful photography studio team. They share invaluable insights on creating a memorable brand, expanding business models to meet market demands, and maintaining ethical practices to foster long-term relationships with both clients and associates. Their emphasis on integrity, flexibility, and continual learning serves as a blueprint for creative entrepreneurs aiming to elevate their businesses.

Transcript

[Evie McLeod]

You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast. We are your hosts, Evie McLeod and Lindsay Roman. Welcome back my friend. This episode is about to be so much fun and so informational. So you do not want to miss this one. If you are a photographer and just wondering about all the ins and outs of possibly growing a team, building an associate program, starting a studio, any of those things. We are going into depth on today with the incredible Ryan and Heidi and they are the founders of the studio Forged in the north. They have over 15 years of experience in the wedding industry with some incredible portfolio and clients and experience under their belt. They're based in the New York area, New York City. They are just powerhouses in this industry. They have been in it for a long time. They've been educators, they've built a studio, they have built another company that you are also going to find out about in this episode. And they are just a wealth of knowledge about all things photography, serving your clients well and building an associate team.

[Lindsay Roman]

So today, like she just said, we talked about building an associate team with Ryan and Heidi and we grilled them like, like genuinely grilled them. They, the conversation just flew by so quickly and they unpacked the ins and outs behind how they build or how they built their forged in the north team as well as the other company that we will be elusive right now.

[Ryan]

Right.

[Lindsay Roman]

You find out and you'll find out in the episode. But they just unp almost every single question that you could possibly think of when it comes to how to build an associate team or how to build a photography studio where you're not necessarily the main photographer but you have a team of photographers. They specialize in this incredibly well. And they held nothing back in today's episode.

[Evie McLeod]

Their numbers like how, how do they pay, handle the payouts on their two different businesses? How many weddings are they able to do on kind of their two different businesses? What does it look like who handles the shooting versus the editing and who's responsible for admin and what does that look like? How do they manage all of that backend running all of these different photographers shooting all these different weddings?

[Lindsay Roman]

How do they handle upset clients? Especially when it's an associate that maybe was the one that was photographing the bride and all. Just all the things. Today's episode was so good. So without further ado, let's listen to Ryan and Heidi. Are you just getting into your photography business and have no idea what lenses, camera bodies and gear you should go for? Well, well, today is your lucky day, friend, because we're about to go over our entire gear list with you. Yup, we are about to spill all the tea on our favorite camera gear for shooting weddings and elopements. Now, if you're a photographer in a season of growing, your gear list and you're just wanting to know what lenses, camera, bodies and other gear we use and recommend, this freebie is for you. You ready? Let's go grab the [e-mail] gear.

[Evie McLeod]

Hey he.

[Ryan]

Hey.

[Lindsay Roman]

I'm Lindsay Roman.

[Evie McLeod]

And I'm Evie McLeod. And we are family and legacy focused serial entrepreneurs and the founders of the Hart University, a business education company with a mission to help you thrive in your business and life.

[Lindsay Roman]

Welcome to our entrepreneur cocktail hour where business and marketing strategies meet faith. Real talk and raw and life changing conversations.

[Evie McLeod]

At the end of the day, we are all in this together, figuring out how to navigate the ups and downs, the messy and the beautiful and everything in between. This is a community where you can come as you are, get inspired and walk away equipped to build a legacy filled life.

[Lindsay Roman]

You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast.

[Evie McLeod]

Ryan and Heidi, thank you for being here today. We are so excited for this conversation.

[Ryan]

Thanks for having us. We're so excited to see you guys. It's been forever.

[Heidi]

It's been a minute.

[Lindsay Roman]

It's been a minute. For anybody that's listening that doesn't know we taught together at Workshop. Workshop. I guess New York.

[Evie McLeod]

Isn't that. What?

[Lindsay Roman]

Well, yeah, but like, it. It was a workshop called Workshop.

[Ryan]

I know, that's just confusing.

[Heidi]

I'm not gonna jump in here. I'm not jumping in. I want you to keep rolling. Keep rolling with that one.

[Evie McLeod]

There were no vowels. It's spelled W, R, K, S, H, P. Like workshop. Workshop.

[Heidi]

Yes.

[Evie McLeod]

Anyways.

[Heidi]

Yeah. And only dinosaurs, like all of us would remember it anyway because it was so long ago.

[Lindsay Roman]

It was so like, like embarrassingly long.

[Heidi]

No one can remember it.

[Evie McLeod]

Like, like embarrassing. We were like, how long has it been? And I think it's been like seven or eight years.

[Lindsay Roman]

Well, it was 2018.

[Heidi]

Or 2017 was 2018. And we were considering another one for April, April 2020. Which we ultimately did not do.

[Lindsay Roman]

Right.

[Heidi]

And we decided on that before COVID but holy smokes, did we dodge a bullet there?

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah, yeah, we definitely didn't because we had a workshop scheduled for March of 20, 2020. So imagine like we had to cancel it like a week away.

[Ryan]

Oh, did you end up canceling?

[Heidi]

And it was such a quickly evolving situation at that point.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

Oh, my gosh. I. I do not envy you on that.

[Evie McLeod]

That is. We survived. And all of our attendees were so understanding. I think we gave us a full refund.

[Lindsay Roman]

We hosted like a day long zoom call. I remember just being like, give us literally what we're here for you. What can we give you all day?

[Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

It was a wild time, though.

[Heidi]

It was, it was so that would.

[Ryan]

Have been our last one, but. Yeah. No, 2018.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And then it's.

[Heidi]

I think we just decided to like, like, everyone had so much fun. People wanted another one, but I think it was, it was very exhausting. It wasn't profitable. So, like, I think we were just like, you know what? Let's. Let's just let that be its own thing. People had a great time and we'll move on.

[Lindsay Roman]

It was a great time though.

[Evie McLeod]

It was so fun.

[Heidi]

Yeah, it was so fun. Oh, you did in your class for sure. Because I would like randomly drop by and there would just be like, everyone's dancing. Random. I'm like, what's on topic again?

[Lindsay Roman]

That's on brand.

[Evie McLeod]

That checks out. I've been talking about personal branding.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

Dancing may not fit if you don't know me, but yeah, I love it.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

We had a grand old time. That was so fun.

[Heidi]

Yes.

[Lindsay Roman]

Amazing. Okay, well, welcome to the show. Please introduce yourselves for our listeners that don't have the history of teaching a workshop with you back in 2018. So if you are a listener that is just tuning in and you're like, who is Ryan, Heidi, give us the tea.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

Hi, everyone.

[Ryan]

We're so excited to be on here today and talk. Talk with you guys. But I guess a little bit on our backstory. Ryan and I are married. We met in architecture school a long, long time ago. Very lucky year. And you know, it's funny, back when we were in school, our dream was to start like an architecture firm together one day. And we were working as architects and then just started shooting. Picked up a camera, started shooting on the side, like as you do. As we all do.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And the hobby and side hustle became like the main hustle and we loved it so much and we decided to like make that jump. Going from full time architects to full time photography. Wow. And that was like the same year we. Well, we were shooting before that. But when we decided to like quit architecture is when we founded like Forged in the North. That's like when we.

[Heidi]

Very shortly after that.

[Ryan]

Same. Yeah.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And we got married that year.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

So a lot of life changes. Yeah. 2013 that was like, yeah, the crazy year. And pretty much never looked back. It's just been crazy. I feel like it's been such a journey, like learning the industry and meeting so many incredible people, getting to travel the world. And then now we have three kids and we're trying to balance like, you know, work life, home life and all of that and running a studio. So yeah, that's kind of where we're at now.

[Lindsay Roman]

Amazing. I love.

[Evie McLeod]

And you guys are based in and around the New York City area, right?

[Ryan]

Right.

[Heidi]

New York City area.

[Ryan]

Yeah, we were in Brooklyn for 13 years and then we just moved out to Long Island. Yeah, I love it.

[Lindsay Roman]

That's amazing.

[Evie McLeod]

Okay, can you kind of share with us the, the backstory of like Forged in the north and the name of your company?

[Ryan]

Yeah, give us a little.

[Heidi]

Yeah, it's pretty funny.

[Ryan]

You know, people ask us that a lot. It's funny.

[Heidi]

When we first started it was just called like actually the very first name was Ryan and Heidi photo and video. So creative.

[Evie McLeod]

Nice.

[Heidi]

We changed that to Ryan Heidi Studio and we had like kind of a very short lived studio. We're happy to talk about that. That did not. It didn't come to fruition. Like that didn't work out. Everyone was kind of like left on amicable terms. Like we're all very close friends but for a variety of reasons. That one didn't work. And again, happy to dive into that. But I think we just like had a moment to step back and say like, okay, we want to build something, we want it to not have our names on it. I think we just always had this like idea that we build a team of equals.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

Like there wasn't this like associate shooter level difference.

[Ryan]

And I think there was a couple of factors there. One was we were both pursuing commercial work at this time as well. And it's not so much the case today as it was, you know, 15 years ago. You didn't really want like your wedding work to cross over with your commercial work. That was not really a thing. So now I feel like wedding photography and like commercial work and lifestyle and all of that is like very meshed together. But we're like, okay, if we're going to have like Ryan Brown, he was like pursuing directing. So like commercial directing. So he wanted his name with that. And then I was pursuing like fashion and lifestyle commercial photography. So we have like separate names that those are our own kind of like commercial photography names. And then so we wanted our wedding work to be something separate. And then if we wanted to build A team. Eventually we didn't want clients to feel like, oh, we're just getting like the Ryan and Heidi associate. But we're not getting Ryan and Heidi, like, because a lot of people, if they have their name as their brand, which is also great, I mean, we know so many incredibly successful wedding photographers that it's their name. But then if you get their associate, I feel like the clients feel a little, like, bummed. They don't.

[Lindsay Roman]

I got the downgrade.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Whereas if, like, with us, I feel like. And we'll get into this later, more like Paul on our team almost represents forged, like, more than we do. Like, people in the industry, like, associate him.

[Heidi]

I think for a long time we had the same pricing to sort of send a signal to the client that it is all equal. And then a couple years back, we started doing different pricing sheets. Paul's actually priced much higher than us now. And part of that is a supply demand thing. And I think just a type, like the market he's going for with weddings. Obviously, if it was Ryan and Heidi's studio and they were like, oh, but here's Paul and he's like 40% more than us. It's kind of hard to explain to a couple. It's a little confusing. But then, I mean, the name. I think, like, at the time we wanted something that was very different from sort of the, like, light and airy, lovey dovey names. Nothing against it, but we just felt. Felt like we wanted to kind of cut against the grain a little bit.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

And so it really, it was like, very random how it came up, but it's just like a forging of the two of us. We both are from the North. I'm from Chicago, she's from New York.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

So I think it was just sort.

[Ryan]

Of in Chicago in school.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And I had a list of like 200 names. We had like a note in our phone and we were just like, spitballing, spitballing, spitballing. And then one night, Ryan was like, forge in the North. And I was, like, obsessed with it. And I was like, yes, that's it. After, like, thinking of so many. Because it did have, like, more meaning to us as, like, a partnership. And then again, like, this was a time too, when, like, Southern California that, like, Jose Villa was, like, taking over, like, overexposed film, which is beautiful and I'm obsessed with it. But we don't shoot that way. We just don't see light that way. It would be, like, really counterintuitive to shoot in that way. And so we're like, you know, this, like, a little bit darker aesthetic, and we felt like the north is, like, I don't know, darker.

[Evie McLeod]

I mean, well, also, you think of, like, a Forge. Like, the whole name just verbally feels.

[Ryan]

A little bit darker.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, it feels like more like moody.

[Heidi]

Yes.

[Ryan]

Which is great.

[Heidi]

Make no mistake, we fully recognize it's a ridiculous name for a photo video studio. Yeah. But, like, it is memorable.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

Like, that. That is kind of nice. And people, even to this day, like, when they like other vendors, obviously we're, like, pretty well established in this. In this industry, this market in New York. And so people know the name, and they know that represents, like, a lot of us now. So I guess mission accomplished on that.

[Ryan]

Yeah, we're happy with it.

[Evie McLeod]

And it stood the test of time all these years. So high five yourself. Y'all did it so beautifully.

[Lindsay Roman]

You started.

[Heidi]

Thank you.

[Lindsay Roman]

The business, though, from the get go, knowing that you would want a team and it wouldn't just be like, husband, wife, team situation.

[Heidi]

When we formed Forge in the north, for sure, like, we always had that.

[Ryan]

As an idea Heidi Studio, we're like, well, maybe we try it again differently down the road.

[Heidi]

Yep, exactly.

[Ryan]

But I will say we can get into this. I don't want to jump ahead. We. I don't. For your listeners who. And I don't know how many people know this, but we have Forged and then we have a sister company called After it all. And that I don't think we ever foresaw that. I think we always thought we would build under Forged. And I don't think we ever, like, Ryan came up with a great idea for the sister company, which we'll get into why we did that. But that wasn't always, I don't think a thought in the very beginning.

[Heidi]

No, definitely not. That was.

[Ryan]

That emerged later out of, like, a supply and demand thing that came up for us.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

Can I ask a clarifying just really quick. We don't have to get into the nitty gritty of it, but the sister company, is that also Photo Video Team shooting weddings. Okay.

[Heidi]

Yeah. So that one's called after it all, and that one is photo and video at a lower price point.

[Evie McLeod]

Okay.

[Heidi]

The quick tldr on that is like, after we had established forage in the north and Paul and Ben, it was the four of us. Paul, Ben, Heidi, and I.

[Ryan]

It was the Forge team.

[Heidi]

Yeah. Once it came to this was like 2018, there was. We had really grown our lead generation. And we found that the two main reasons by far this probably covered 99% of the reasons people didn't book us, which was we were either not available or we were too expensive. And so we just had this idea to start another studio to solve the availability problem at a lower price point to solve the pricing problem. And that. That's how after it all kind of became about.

[Lindsay Roman]

And does after it all have different associates or like, different photographers.

[Heidi]

So there's four photo and two video over there. And then I don't know if you. I don't know if we mentioned this. Heidi and I do both photo and video. And then Paul does photo, and we have two Bens that do video.

[Evie McLeod]

Very confusing thing.

[Ryan]

That is the Ford side.

[Heidi]

Both studios do photo and video, and sometimes it even mixes and matches. Like, it just literally today booked someone where they did photo on the after it all side, video on the Forge on the north side. So it's just kind of like one big family and, like, lots of options for couples and clients and planners.

[Ryan]

Okay, wait. Oh, yeah, go ahead.

[Lindsay Roman]

No, sorry. No, you. Could you keep going.

[Ryan]

I was just gonna say, I know people are so interested in numbers. And I know something when I'm, like, learning or listening to other, like, people in the industry, I really love hearing, like, numbers because I find that, like, so useful. So when Ryan was saying, like, we had, like, a surplus in our leads and, like, inquiries, we were getting, like, 800 inquiries a year.

[Heidi]

This was 2018.

[Ryan]

Yeah. And we would only as a studio, let's say, shoot like, 80.

[Heidi]

Yeah. Because 90 maps maybe.

[Ryan]

So that's only 10% of the total inquiries that came in. So then once we could form after it all that conversion from, like, the inquiries to shooting became like, 50%.

[Lindsay Roman]

Because do you just refer, like, like, if an inquiry comes into Forge in.

[Evie McLeod]

The north and they're like, a lower.

[Lindsay Roman]

Budget, you're like, oh, let me present you this option.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Well, it's funny. We have a whole system.

[Heidi]

Yeah, we do.

[Ryan]

You can talk about why we plant.

[Heidi]

The seed a little bit in the forging the north pricing. So everyone's pricing page at the bottom after they get through all the numbers. We do plant the seed of, like, hey, are you looking for, like, a more affordable option? We have a sister company, and so it kind of hooks them a little bit. It doesn't give them any other information other than a link to the website. And then sometimes people respond back right away. Hey, would love to know about after it all. And then other times, people ghost us, which we all know what that feels like, and we just have an auto response. Like, I think we've changed this over time, but I think it's like roughly three days.

[Ryan]

If they. If they've inquired with Forge in the North.

[Heidi]

Yes. And they don't respond, we'll just hit them right away with an after it all pitch because.

[Evie McLeod]

Oh, nice.

[Lindsay Roman]

Wait, do they come in then through after it All?

[Heidi]

So no, it is like if somebody ghosts.

[Lindsay Roman]

If somebody ghosts Forge in the north and then you get them that email that's like, oh, hey, you're probably ghosting because we're too expensive. Not really. But like.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lindsay Roman]

Do they then inquire with after it All?

[Evie McLeod]

Sometimes.

[Heidi]

Yeah. Sometimes they go straight to that contact page and just fill that one out right away. And so we just kind of continue on that side.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

Sometimes we just like CC the after it all side to kind of obviously for our own organization. We just kind of like. Yeah. Migrate that over to the after it all side. So. And we have Kate, our studio manager who we've had for like seven years and she handles both of the admin for Amazing. For each studio. Yeah.

[Ryan]

Essentially. Yeah.

[Lindsay Roman]

Okay, wait, I have so many questions. I have literally so many questions. Do you. Do you give like less feature? Not features is not the right word, but like less things with after it all tea. Like does that make sense? Like to make it a cheaper price point?

[Ryan]

Like how do you offer.

[Evie McLeod]

What's the deal? How do you offer a budget.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

Option.

[Heidi]

We like. The term like the actual language we use also has kind of shifted over time because it is a difficult thing to downsell someone and still convince them that the value. It's kind of opposing forces there. You know, we usually say something along the lines of like, hey, these are like lower price photo and video people that are kind of more up and comers in the industry. They don't have the same experience as Forged in the North. We handle all the editing. That's a major differentiator. Is that Heidi and I handle all the editing on after all stuff side for the north is really operates more like a photo agency. We almost just like rep the people on our team.

[Ryan]

Wow.

[Heidi]

Because we don't have much interaction beyond invoicing contracts.

[Lindsay Roman]

Like if I hired Paul through Forge in the north, he edits it.

[Heidi]

Yeah. And you pretty much have Paul right from the beginning. Aside from invoicing and contract and payment. Like those logistical things we'll handle. But Paul, like you got Paul from start to finish and like he's very much, you know, we're not involved in the wedding basically at that point.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And then you said after it all.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah. You edit for after it all.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Not video though.

[Heidi]

Just photo, not video. I think it's something we've toyed around with maybe in the future. Currently, like our two video shooters over there are, are wanting to edit and so right now they're doing the video editing, but we are, we sort of are kind of like creative directors, I guess you could say. And this goes for both After it all and Forge in the North. We oversee all the video work as well. So like drafts will be submitted to us where we give feedback and we have an ideas exchange with each person to sort of get to that.

[Lindsay Roman]

That makes sense.

[Heidi]

Final product. Paul's really the only one we just let loose.

[Evie McLeod]

I know.

[Lindsay Roman]

Are they the same?

[Ryan]

We like get excited to see his galleries. Be like, oh my God, how about it? Yeah.

[Lindsay Roman]

Are they the same editing style between the two sister companies?

[Ryan]

So yeah, I mean we really are editing style. Yeah. It's our preset. And so that's something we also tell our afterdog couples. We always are like you, you know, they're up comers in the industry, the shooters. Not as much experience. But then we put our secret sauce on it. You know, clients like love that. Like the editing side is always so mysterious, I feel like to clients. And our preset is like, you know, we've been developing it forever. Forever. Forever. But that is like a consistent, you know, denominator I guess between the two. And then I think with Paul, I mean Paul, I don't even know how long has he been with us. And in the very beginning we gave him our preset and then he's been like, you know, making it his own too. So it's like similar, but it's become a little more unique to him. Whereas after it all is like pretty.

[Heidi]

A little more uniform.

[Ryan]

A little more uniform.

[Heidi]

I think you see. Yeah, I think you see individual voices more so on the Forge side. And yeah, that's a little easier to explain on a phone call with a client. Less so on email.

[Ryan]

But yeah, there's something to be said too. It's interesting the types of clients in New York when you have a client that can like afford Paul, that reaches out, they want Paul. Like they're not even interested in a lower budget. But if you have clients who like really don't have that, that's not even like on their radar to spend.

[Heidi]

A lot of people come to us and just say they like everyone. Yeah, they're just like we like all 11 people, you know, like there's no discrimination for style.

[Ryan]

You can't really tell the difference. And, like, After Doll really does make sense. You know, they're maybe not super into portraits because I will say I feel like, pretty big difference. I noticed between our After Doll shooters and Forged is like, the four shooters are all very skilled in the portrait session on the day, whereas our After Doll shooters are a little bit more candid, like Running Gun, like on the move, less directing, but all great, all great vibes and all great energy.

[Heidi]

Yeah. And I would say on the after all side, it's like, really great because, like, we're such close friends with everyone in both studios. Like, they are really family. And so it's really nice when I can hop on, like a kind of a sales call with a client and just speak from a friend level of who these people are. Because there's big personality differences across everyone, and sometimes that's more meaningful to someone than the work. So it's kind of nice to be able to, like, I don't know, I just, like, speak, like, kind of speak from the hip a little bit and just tell people, like, all the nuances. It doesn't. I feel like the calls don't feel so salesy just because it's coming from a real place.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

I love that. I have so many questions. I. I've reached down and pulled up my phone so I can be jotting down my notes and questions as we're going so I don't forget them. No, I'm going rogue at this point.

[Lindsay Roman]

I thought you were just, like, viciously texting somebody while they were talking.

[Evie McLeod]

No, I have. I have a list of questions.

[Lindsay Roman]

She's like, hold my beer.

[Evie McLeod]

Here's the. Just out of curiosity. I don't want to get too in the weeds of, like, the sister company versus, like, Forged everything, but I feel like it all ties into, like, a team.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

I am so curious why you guys thought. And I. I totally understand a lot of the inquiries coming in. Like, you answered this. Like, a lot of the inquiries coming in were lower budget. But you guys already had a reputation of being this, like, high quality, you know, super in demand, super booked out, busy. I feel like the normal, like, route that most photographers take at that point is to expand their current business.

[Lindsay Roman]

Like, have more than people.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

Have more people come on to Forged.

[Ryan]

So.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

Why? What was the deciding factor or the motivating factor for you guys to almost create a whole separate sister company that is more budget, especially in, like, New York? I'm curious if that was like, I Feel like you can get away with higher, you know, priced weddings in New York City a little easier than like, you know, middle of the Midwest.

[Heidi]

So what I mean, I was gonna say just to add to your question, which is, I think what you're alluding to there at the end is like some people get to that point and also raise their prices.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

And so like that's a common route that you see. Instead of like expanding the team or anything like that, maybe they just raise their prices because they're hoping to convert. They'll convert fewer, but at a higher price point. Of course.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

For. There is a. I mean there's a couple of variables there. Like one big one is finding the people. I think it's like what we.

[Lindsay Roman]

That's a future question.

[Heidi]

Yeah. What we got with Paul and Ben? I met Ben, he was 18, 15 years ago. He was like a kid right out of school and like he started second shooting with us when we didn't know what we were doing either. Like, like he was with us from the beginning.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

Paul hired us for like a mentor session right around the time we were forming Foragers in the North.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

And he was considering going to med school. And long story short, I convinced him not to become a doctor and become a photographer. And like all of a sudden one day he emails and he' like, oh, by the way, I'm moving. He was from. He's from Arizona. He's like, by the way, I'm moving to New York and I'm going to SVA for my master's in fine art and photography. And so like I think, I think I was like a little taken back by that. But then also like, I gotta get this kid some work.

[Evie McLeod]

Like I feel so responsible for this life path.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

Yeah. But Paul just ended up developing into. Everyone on our team ended up developing into such incredibly talented artists. And I say this over and over again. They all are so top of their game. And Paul is not. He's a, he's a one off. Really. Truly. So like finding people that are at that level and also don't want to run their own business, that's the thing is, is difficult. I mean it is really difficult. On the after it all side. A little bit of an easier like finding or like hiring process I guess is like we already had a lot of connections of second shooters or people we knew or like one person we that's on our team. Jen was from Workshop. Like people like connected with each other on like Reddit and like some Adam that's How Adam found us. So everyone kind of came in a different path that way. And after it all is definitely more weekend money. It's not. This is not their full time income. This is kind of gig money and they can kind of scale up or scale down their schedules and keep their own brand. And keep their own brand. They could shoot for other people.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Shoot for other studios.

[Heidi]

The Fortune North. Everyone's just. That's, that's it. We're full stop. I mean since 2019, everyone in the studio has been 1099 with six figure income. And like it's our full time job for everyone. So it's. Yeah, it's just kind of set up differently.

[Evie McLeod]

And.

[Ryan]

And also the payment structure is different with the way we handle like the way we pay our shooters on both teams. We actually, since we handle the editing on After it all, we basically pay the After it all shooters like a day rate, like a shooting, almost like.

[Heidi]

An associate, like an hourly. Yeah.

[Ryan]

And then the rest of the rest of the payment goes to us. And so if we like add things.

[Heidi]

On, which is, which is more of a. I would say more of like a traditional.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, more approach. Yes.

[Ryan]

And then forged is more like we take like an amount just from per booking and then if like they go on and their proposal or whatever gets huge, then they keep all of that. We don't like take any percentage. It's not percentage.

[Heidi]

Our cut is fixed off the top. I'm happy to discuss numbers, but we take 1200 off the top of all forged bookings as sort of our admin fee. They keep the rest. It ends up being on average somewhere between like 10 and 15% of the invoice. So it's, it's quite low. And, and so our, our mentality is like whether or not the client adds extra things, rehearsal dinner, engagement, shoot, whatever. That's not more work for. I mean, yeah, sure, we're clicking a few buttons on an invoice, but like it's not more work for us, so we don't deserve that money. Like that should just go straight to the shooter.

[Evie McLeod]

So.

[Ryan]

And in the, at the end of the day, forge really is about like marketing and our brand and like constantly like really strengthening the brand. So Ryan and I, the past few years we've been making babies, we haven't been like really like pounding the pavement in the same way. Like when we first started Forge, those first six years we were going so hard with like building our brand, traveling the world, getting on blogs, get doing education, and like everything. Everything just to like Develop this brand now we don't really feel the need. We don't have to go out and do that same stuff because the brand kind of stands in its own. And, you know, even though we're not financially making that much from our shooters, shooters, they're networking with planners, with venues, and they're getting posted all over Instagram because of all these different vendors.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

So it's kind of a machine that runs itself at this point from a marketing standpoint, which keeps inquiries coming in that feeds the entire studio from 4 to.

[Heidi]

After all, the goal was never for Fortune Earth to be this, like, big, profitable model. I'm saying in terms of our cut from the associates, it was really much more about stability. Like, how do you say, like, brand awareness, reputation, building our name. And so, like. Like, making money was never the goal. And truthfully, like, if we just had for your north. The cuts we take off the top really just barely pay for our studio management fees, our business insurance, or like, some of those. Some of the little marketing costs we have. So it's.

[Ryan]

But that's great because, you know, like our studio manager, Kate, like we were saying before, she's essential in so many ways that, like, I'm so thankful that that doesn't feel like a burden financially to have her. You know what I mean? I feel like that she's just like, part of Love the brand and the company, like, so much.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And then so after it all, it was another opportunity too. Like, how can we structure this in a way that actually makes passive income.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And so that instead of. So it's like inversed. Instead of taking 1200 on the top, we give them. Do they get 12 over 1500?

[Heidi]

It's a just an hourly rate. And then, like. Like we said, like, we take the rest, basically. So we'll make roughly. Is like a 50. 50 split. It. Yeah, it changes, but.

[Ryan]

And then they're super happy with that. We're able to make a little more. You know, I can be home. It's easier. Like, obviously, editing is a lot. Like, some years it's really challenging to, like, get all those jobs. And especially, like, you know, by the time it's Christmas time and all those September weddings are rolling in. I'm editing are forged. Like, I'll have five weddings in one weekend that I'm editing. Wow. And I'm like, lord, okay. Like, they're all due the same weekend. It's crazy. Which is like, you know, an amazing problem to have. But that's also like, yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

Been well, that's Great. That was one of my next questions was how the. How the heck.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

Do you do that?

[Heidi]

Do you guys.

[Evie McLeod]

You said you guys do the edit. Does that mean like, like you guys do the editing?

[Heidi]

We've honestly like had many different ways of getting through all that work over the years.

[Ryan]

In the beginning of editors coming in.

[Heidi]

Yeah, I mean, one of our editors actually ended up being an after all shooter after a while, but she, she would actually like come into an office and like we would edit together. We also did like overseas editors. Now we are pretty much just fully all in on Imagine AI and really nice profile built with them. And it's obviously quick as I'm sure you know we still go through every photo. Yeah. Of course, no matter whether an editor is doing it or an AI is doing it, you're still checking. You're going through one photo at a time, making sure it's perfect and delivered correctly.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Heidi]

So. But the AI just obviously is like, it's cheaper, faster, and we're much more.

[Ryan]

Efficient than we used to be with editing. If I like, you know, zoned in, listening to a podcast, like, I can crush through a wedding day in a day.

[Heidi]

Yeah. Pretty easily.

[Ryan]

Definitely.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

So I just think productivity has gone up because of limited time. When you have kids, like 100%. Yeah. You're forced to focus. You cannot dilly dally.

[Heidi]

There's no. Yeah, there's. There's no getting distracted. Like you just gotta. If you have time, you buckle down and do it. Also like 15 years in. Yeah. We're a lot quicker at this now than we used to be. So.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

You know, I feel really fortunate that like, obviously there's a hot time of editing season. Right. Like October through January, February, like it's busier. But then once you get to now, like it starts slowing down. So it's not like the entire year. It's always like pedal to the metal editing. So it doesn't feel. It feels like a nice. At least in New York. I mean, your guys's season down south is probably like more consistent throughout the year, but we get a nice break in the winter where it's like a couple of weddings throughout the winter and then you like start the new year in the spring without that heavy edit load. It just is like a lot of shooting and then. Yeah. Clean slate.

[Lindsay Roman]

Hopefully for your photographers that are on the after it all side. Do you like on the website, are you. Is it like. I guess. Because with Forge in the north, you have like each shooter and like people can pick who they're hiring. Do they pick who they're hiring on the after it all side?

[Ryan]

Yes.

[Heidi]

Yeah. It's the same setup where they are picking someone to work with for their wedding day based on style, personality, all those things. So in that sense. Yeah, we don't, it's, it's not a traditional studio model in the sense that we don't just randomly assign a person.

[Lindsay Roman]

Right.

[Heidi]

I'm just, I don't know that just like, that's never struck me as like a really great way to do it personally. You're opening yourself up to a lot of risk. You're opening, you know, there's just like, I don't know. So when those deposits come in for the wedding, all deposits go straight to the shooter. They're locked in for that date. Like everything's, you know, good to go for them. So it's a, it's a bit more. Yeah. Defined just like the forge of the north side.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah. And you, you had mentioned earlier, you said that the people that are on the after it all side, they're not only dedicated to after it all like they are associating or doing whatever for other.

[Heidi]

Everyone, I mean everyone has like a different story there. Some people that is, it is all they do on the after all. Like that's all the jobs they take. Others have maybe their own business, but they like the balance of half their year being weddings they don't have to edit and half their year being.

[Ryan]

Yeah, honestly, I feel like a lot of people that's overwhelming for them. Like on our Forge side for sure. Like we know all of our shooters are like so thankful that they don't have to do any admin in that way and that they can just shoot and edit and just be creative and live in that space. And we love that for them too, you know.

[Evie McLeod]

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[Lindsay Roman]

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[Evie McLeod]

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[Lindsay Roman]

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[Evie McLeod]

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[Lindsay Roman]

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[Evie McLeod]

Yes. Some of our favorite products that we've used from primarily pure are their charcoal deodorant, the cleansing oil, their lavender complexion mist, and their clarity serum. Like every freaking product of theirs. We're not kidding. Knocks it out of the park as far as quality and making our skin feel incredible.

[Lindsay Roman]

For 10 off your order, you can use Code Heart and Hustle. That's all caps, no spaces at checkout. Using the link in our show notes, we know that you're gonna love Primary Pure as much as we do. Again, that's Code, Heart and hustle for 10 off your order today. I feel like you're unlocking so many ideas for people that are could be listening to this because I like, if there's a photographer out there that's listening, I could see someone being like, oh, I want to do like a studio setup like Ryan and Heidi are doing. But I also could see other people being like, oh, I want to be the associate shooter and not have to. Like, I want to. I'm realizing, right, like some people I bet are listening to this that are like actively. I'm realizing I don't want to actually own a photography company. I want to work for one.

[Ryan]

Right.

[Lindsay Roman]

Based on.

[Heidi]

Yeah. And I mean then I would just say, you know, two. Two people need to like somehow meet up and do and do that. Right. Because there probably are people that would love to take on an associate. Like our whole approach from the very get go was to be very flexible with what the people. If we find good people, we're very flexible with them in terms of their needs. And so what I mean by that is like on the after it all side, our video shooters had no interest in giving up the editing because they're Giving up payment for that. So we happily let them do the editing. So I think it was just like being flexible to everyone's needs and their schedules and what they're looking for in life.

[Ryan]

How many weddings they want?

[Heidi]

Yeah. How many weddings they want to book?

[Ryan]

Some shooters more in the city. Some want to be more upstate. Yeah, upstate in the county.

[Heidi]

So it's great because, like, you know, Paul and Ben, they've been with us for 10 years since the beginning of Forge of the North. And Benjamin now six years. A little over six years. And he. It's funny, his story is he graduated from after it all to Fortune North.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

So we love graduate.

[Lindsay Roman]

That's fun.

[Heidi]

So, like, he started as an after all shooter and just quickly became good enough to be on the Fortune north team.

[Evie McLeod]

Wow.

[Lindsay Roman]

You get upgraded.

[Ryan]

I know. We can charge more for you.

[Heidi]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan]

But then we make less, I guess. That's funny.

[Heidi]

Yeah. No, I mean, it's. That's the thing is like, it all obviously still has to make sense with our business and our needs and all that kind of stuff, but I mean. Yeah. So far so good.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great. Cuz we want everyone to like, feel like they're getting enough weddings, so it's also like, hard to balance that too. But. Yeah, we've never really. I mean, Covid was insane.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Was that the postco year 2022? I would say not even 2021.

[Evie McLeod]

Really?

[Ryan]

Because we are. Well, maybe 2021.

[Evie McLeod]

2021 was still like. A lot of places were like, not really allowing larger weddings or they were closed or even. Yeah.

[Ryan]

Once it was like, back. I'm still like, recovering from that year because it was so many weddings. Shooting editing conversations with the clients.

[Heidi]

We had to move or deal with about 130 couples with COVID And then I think we did 180 some weddings in 2023. And so it was just like. I mean, you can. You can imagine.

[Lindsay Roman]

I'm like, how.

[Heidi]

Not just the editing, it's like, you know, everyone wants to like a conversation, specific questions.

[Ryan]

We all think like, we're a different case.

[Heidi]

Contract changes the contract.

[Lindsay Roman]

I'm getting high just thinking about that.

[Ryan]

Yeah, no more global.

[Heidi]

We're getting triggered here.

[Evie McLeod]

All of us are like, starting to like, twitch.

[Ryan]

But now we feel like we're at like, a good pace.

[Heidi]

Like, yeah, things have settled down.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, I love that. Okay. I'm curious on obviously, like, your guys's business model is so unique. It's so cool. I feel like it is so smart. It Says a lot and is a huge credit to you guys, the way your minds think, the entrepreneurs that you are. But let's like almost pull it back to just, hey, let's talk about associate shooters. And there's two things that I kind of want to like touch on. And Ryan started to say one of these things before we record and we were like, hush, pause.

[Lindsay Roman]

Oh yes. Which is like the, I guess the industry perception.

[Ryan]

Yeah, stigma.

[Evie McLeod]

Perception or stigma. That's the word I was looking for, the stigma around associates.

[Lindsay Roman]

Basically. Ryan has the floor right now to say what he was going to say before we started recording.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, we're recording now. So go ahead.

[Heidi]

You know, I mean, I think just in general, at least in the wedding industry, like photo and video studios can have a bad rap. I think some people view it as. And that's because there's a lot of bad business practitioners that are honestly quite shady people and they hire lead shooters a few weeks out from a wedding and they're doing kind of irresponsible business moves. In my opinion. We just wanted no part of that. Obviously. I think a big part for us is just slowly building a reputation. What does that mean? Can we redefine this a little bit? And now thankfully we're pretty well established in this industry. People kind of know how we operate. But yeah, I don't know, just like the randomly hiring of lead shooters, it's.

[Ryan]

Not good before the date and then the way they treat their shooters is like also a lot of risk involved, drama with there. A lot of people talk about bad.

[Heidi]

Stories, but yeah, I mean, hopefully we maybe, you know, maybe we can't. I don't know anyone that does like kind of the forge in the north model, the afternoon model is a little bit more common, I guess.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

But on the fortuner side it is a little different. And really it just comes down to like how someone might want to operate their business and finding the right people and, and things like that.

[Evie McLeod]

So have you, have you found. Because obviously I would fully agree with you on like the perception within the industry, like wedding industry service providers are more aware that like, like, hey, associates are hit or miss. Like this can be good or really, really, really bad. But have you noticed that that's something like would you confidently say, hey, that perception is also from the bride and groom side, like the client side. Is there a hit or miss there?

[Heidi]

Certainly it depends how like educated they are about how like the wedding photography works. But if you notice on our website, we, we, we do not overemphasize our ownership of the studio. Like in very small italic print next to our name, it says owners. That's it. There's no other extra language or a big statement about how it all works. Our studio shooters are listed first, we're listed last. So there's some intentional moves there that we're doing to try to signal to the client that we are all one big family.

[Lindsay Roman]

I think you said this before we started recording, but, but I, I feel like the typical associate model is like somebody has their own company and then they get. It's like their name, their name or, or even not. But like still they're the head shooter and then the associates are either cheaper or it's just like established whether that's in, that's the line of how you put it on the website or the price or it's just like it's almost like, oh you can't afford me, here's my associates kind of thing. And Forge does it all equal.

[Heidi]

Yeah, yeah. And there. I don't think there's anything wrong with main photographers having associates that way. I, I like.

[Lindsay Roman]

Right.

[Heidi]

I think it really just all comes down to like how are you communing that, communicating that to the client?

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

Are they aware of like who's handling the editing, how much involvement is like the lead person having versus the associate person. And again those all might depend on just like who you find if you're a photographer and you're thinking about adding an associate, it just depends on who is a good fit. But I would be again, kind of going back to something earlier I said was just like I would be adaptable and flexible rather than like going in with a preconceived notion of what you want kind of being to what this great photographer who came into your life would want for their work life balance and bookings and money and things like that.

[Evie McLeod]

I think that's such a good point because as you even said that of like, I'm immediately thinking as a business coach who has worked with thousands of entrepreneurs over however many years, I cannot tell you the number of times I've had a photographer come to a workshop or one on one coaching with me or whatever who like sits down and is like burnt out, run ragged because they've been associating for somebody. And like I've one specific example, I literally was, I, I genuinely like tried to like give like grab her shoulders and was like what are you doing? She was getting paid around like a thousand for a wedding which is, I feel like that's like somewhat of an Industry norm for like a wedding. So that wasn't the issue to me. She was getting paid around a thousand for a wedding, shooting about a wedding almost every single week, weekend. And she was in charge of all of the editing for it.

[Heidi]

Wow.

[Evie McLeod]

All of it.

[Heidi]

How long was she with this person?

[Evie McLeod]

I think like two or three years.

[Heidi]

That's surprising because I would have thought she would just have quit by then.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, well, it was hard because her entire business, like she was so booked up that she hadn't been able to build her own. And so.

[Lindsay Roman]

But I feel like she's like almost tethered.

[Evie McLeod]

She's like, I can't leave because I lose all of my income from shooting all of these weddings and I haven't built anything because I have no time. And I was like, why are you editing? Why are you shooting a wedding every weekend? Totally fine. If you, you know, whatever.

[Ryan]

Yeah, but why are you.

[Heidi]

I mean, yeah, ultimately she needs to put her foot down.

[Ryan]

Right.

[Heidi]

And if any, I'm not just her. Like anyone in that instance would need to put their foot down and demand either higher pay or a different setup, you know, and if that person doesn't want to work with them anymore, it's probably not a good fit. It's not a good fit.

[Evie McLeod]

It's just so sad that that's so unfortunately common. I don't want to say like every associate program is like that, but it's like you said, coming in with that approach. If you are the photographer who's considering hiring an associate with the understanding of like, hey, I want this to be mutually beneficial. I want you to be in a really good place for what you're wanting. Your needs, your capacity, your desire for your own business or not like that. Like, I guess it's just ethical approach to things versus like here's what I need for this price at this amount. Like. And you'll just bur burn bridges left and right and you will never build a long term team.

[Ryan]

Right. Definitely the loyalty.

[Heidi]

If a long term team is what's important, then those like the way that that's set up is not going to be, you know, if it's something where you're just trying to like get some more bookings for like one season.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

You know, maybe you could get away with something like that. But it's not to make. It doesn't make it ethical, but it certainly won't make that person stick around.

[Ryan]

Yeah. And like you want them to be happy representing you on the wedding day too. You don't want them to be Resentful and, like, bitter. You want them to be their best versions of themselves and, like, be happy in what they're doing, not burnt out because at the end of the day, they are representing your brand, like, to your clients. And that's how you're gonna, you know, convert that client into more clients, you.

[Evie McLeod]

Know, and you'll start getting a reputation, too. If in that situation, I just assume it's a bit of shady business going on in general, like, you're not being clear with the clients of who's editing or how, you know, whatever. There's just. There's some ethical, clear issues that I would assume your business is going to start getting a reputation for not delivering. Not being clear on, like, hey, this edit does not match what was on the website whatsoever. Yeah. Because some random associate edited it and it's not a consistent style or consistent edit. So I feel like, just in general, like, especially if you're trying to build a team, which I think there is an element, especially if you're a personal brand of, you have to, to communicate clearly, hey, here's why an associate is still super valuable. Here's. You still get this value out of it. This is why it's an awesome fit for you, blah, blah, blah. And then if you miss the mark on that, like, your business, your reputation is just going to get shot before hardly any time has passed.

[Heidi]

Oh, absolutely. I mean, and we were just very lucky to have found the people. We found Paul and Benjamin and Ben, that not only are just, like, good to have on the team, they make us better. Like, they are out there building such an incredible reputation for the company. And so, again, there's just that family element to it that we're all trying to help each other. And it's just like a boat with a rising tide. We can all climb that together. But, yeah, I mean, I guess for us, like, the proof is in the pudding a little bit in that, like, Paul and Ben, they've been with us for, like, 10 years now, and that says so much.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Heidi]

I think it's just been really good for them and good for everyone.

[Ryan]

I mean, it's just been so fun. I feel like, Ryan, I have to, like, credit you, because whenever one of them wants to try something, like, Paul really wanted to raise his prices, like, he came to Ryan. Ryan was super receptive, super open to that. Let's have a conversation, let's unpack this. Let's figure out how we can make this work for you. You want to shoot this many weddings this year. You want to shoot these types of weddings. How can I make this work for you? You know, like, you're always like, survey them too. Like a lot of conversations. It's not just like, no, no, no. This is what I think. This is where I want you.

[Evie McLeod]

This is our business formula.

[Ryan]

Yeah. I want you to be priced at this point because I don't want to take a risk. Like. No, we fully recognize, like, they. Giving them autonomy as much as possible within the studio, I think is important too.

[Heidi]

Yeah, yeah. It's definitely not an employee employer relationship at all.

[Ryan]

That's great.

[Heidi]

It's. It's very much a. If everyone's very much involved in their own future and what they want, and we can kind of be there as slightly more of like a mentor to them and just like guidance of like, okay, well, here's what we're seeing on the business side. Here's what could work, but ultimately if they want to do something, we'll happily make that work.

[Lindsay Roman]

You know, have you guys ever dealt with. And maybe maybe not on the forge side, and maybe this could possibly happen more so on the after it all side, just because it's not like they're locked into just that company. Have you ever dealt with an issue where like a mistake was made by an associate or something? Maybe it was like a client draw, Like a hell client. Maybe not a hell client. That sounds bad, but like, like a, A dramatic client or like a tizzy.

[Evie McLeod]

That's an appropriate term.

[Heidi]

We, everyone in the industry listening to that will know exactly what that means.

[Evie McLeod]

Very descriptive. We get it.

[Lindsay Roman]

Very descriptive. But like, basically something happens. Whether it was like the associate dropped the ball on something and not maybe even intentionally, but just basically something went wrong in some capacity. How have you handled that as like the owners with that associate?

[Heidi]

Look, I mean, it's. It's very rare.

[Evie McLeod]

It's very rare that I was going to say.

[Ryan]

I feel like firstly, we vet to each other.

[Heidi]

Yeah. I mean, so like, not to get into specifics, but there are times when you deal with situations like that. And Heidi and I looked at each other and we're like, why in the hell did we ever start a studio? Because I think everyone knows, like, and this is obvious. It's just that if it was just us, we just have so much of a tighter control over that client experience, which is just an unfortunate truth. And I, you know, I think it's.

[Ryan]

Worth mentioning even like about like the bride, right? I'll be like this crazy, like, what is she thinking? She's so out of line. This bride, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then we send the email and we go, oh my gosh, we're so sorry you feel way. You know, like, you just have to like, really?

[Heidi]

I think, yeah.

[Ryan]

I mean yourself and you come to the client and say, yeah, the number one most important thing to us is that you are thrilled with your photos documenting this incredible day. I am so sorry that so. And so, you know, whoever it is didn't realize to capture it in this way or that they, you know, weren't there in the way that you thought they were going to be or that you didn't think that their humor was funny or what.

[Evie McLeod]

Like, I'm so sorry they took a dinner break and you didn't realize that they deserve.

[Ryan]

They had to eat. Right. Right. And.

[Heidi]

But I think ultimately for anyone, make this right.

[Ryan]

And then we usually give them and this.

[Heidi]

It's not just for studio. Studio shooters. It's for anyone. But if, like, if the client thinks you did something wrong, you really just have to have an attitude of like, I'm really sorry. I totally see your perspective on that. Like, let's. Now that the wedding's over, how can we fix that? Is it. Is it re editing things?

[Ryan]

Is it.

[Heidi]

Maybe it's a. Like an album gift or something like that. So.

[Ryan]

And we've had a few brides where they'll send an email and I'm like, oh, S H I t how like they are not gonna. There's no turning this ship around. And when I send, you know, and it's. It's literally like, you know, these. I think it's so funny. I saw a really interesting article and I found it. I don't know if it was the cut or what, but what did they call it? It was like post. Post wedding, like depression for brides because they have like this view the wedding day and if something doesn't go the way that they want, it's like these regrets, right? Like, we had this one bride on the after it all side where the uplighting in the room was like, the band brought it. And she wasn't. She's like, on the day. I wasn't even aware and now all my friends are sending me photos and there's red streaks on the wall. She's like, oh my God. My wedding was like a circus, basically. Ins. I read stripes. She's like, how did I not even see that in person? And I was like, well, it probably shows up more, you know, on the iPhone photos. And she's like, can we edit the uplighting out. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. You know, like, that's not really a thing you can do. But, you know, she had post wedding, like, regret, depression.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And this is a real thing. When I read this article, because you spend so much money and it's not even in, like, regards to photography. That's a. I. That is a component, though. Like, I think some brides, I see.

[Lindsay Roman]

The visual, they don't like their hair.

[Ryan]

Yeah. So we've had a bride before where she literally, like, we. Yeah, she. We really, truly think we never, like, got the final edits done on their video. And I really, truly think it's because she didn't like the way her look was on the day. And she, like, can't even look at the video of herself, which breaks my heart. Like, devastating. Right. And so at the end of the day, this, like, if a bride comes in, sending this emotional email, like, oh, I didn't want photos backlit for my bride. My bridal part, like, this was another thing. A bride was like, oh, the bridesmaids dresses don't look vibrant. And I'm like, oh, that's because they're backlit. You know, when you're shooting on a sunny day, you're gonna backlit your couple or your bride. You're not gonna put her squinting into the sun. But if that. If you do that, then, like, the greens and pinks and blues on their dresses won't look as saturated because the light's not front, it's back. So it's like explaining that to a client's hardware. You're like, well, you wanted the mountain view in the background that was backlit. And it's better for squinting faces. But, yes, your dresses won't be maybe as, like, vibrant. Right? Yeah, but that's something that's, like, out of everyone's kind of control until you see them later in that moment, you have to realize, meet her where she is. She's emotional. She's upset about that. That's not our fault. That's not their fault. So the second you say, oh, my God, I'm so sorry that you feel this way, their response back 100% of the time for us has been, like, pretty understanding. So much. Yeah, thank you so much.

[Evie McLeod]

I just want to be hurt.

[Heidi]

You have to meet people where they are.

[Ryan]

And that's been so eye opening for us.

[Heidi]

Another thing I'll just add to that is the importance of being a kind, calming, positive energy on a wedding day. And just something I have to deal with is Like, I have to remember kind of smile a little bit. I have kind of a, you know, what, resting face. And so it's like, I need to kind of remember to put the smile on and just approach people with kindness. And I know I can speak definitely for Heidi and I and many people on our team that everyone is generally very kind to our couples, and if there is something they're unhappy with, 99% of the time, they come to us super grateful for what we've done and then ask for whatever they requested. And. And, yeah, if you're. If you're not being super kind to your couples and not being happy and keeping a positive attitude, they're probably more likely to, like, kind of get at you afterwards.

[Ryan]

Yeah, we kind of have a unique.

[Lindsay Roman]

That's where my mind went.

[Evie McLeod]

I love that you brought that up. She was sepia bride.

[Heidi]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ryan]

That was wild. It was a fun roller coaster. That's a good example of meeting the bright. Like, yeah, well, you could unpack that, but I don't even know if we want to open that. But I was going to say we actually have a really unique opportunity and perspective shooting both photo and video, because sometimes we'll shoot just video on a day, and we're able to, like, observe other photographers or vice versa. If we're shooting just photo and another video team is there, we can observe them. And we are shocked at the amount of times photographers are rude and snappy at their brides. I'm like, oh, my gosh. It's not about you. Right?

[Evie McLeod]

It's not about you.

[Ryan]

It's about them. And you're making it. You're trying to warm them up to get these portraits, and you're making them so uncomfortable right now because you're like, we're running out of time and there's people in the background.

[Evie McLeod]

Just so you know, we're like, 30 minutes behind schedule.

[Lindsay Roman]

It's like, it's not about you.

[Evie McLeod]

Shut your mouth right now.

[Ryan]

There's other ways to do it. Yes, yes. So we're all the ways we don't want to be. Like, there's been many times where we can, like, observe that and be like, okay, that was a learning lesson. Like, really don't ever want to make our client feel that way.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah. I feel like also when. When you've experienced it, both observing, if you're a guest at a wedding, if you've had your own wedding, all of those, like, experiences, I feel like, open your eyes further and further to what it's like on the client side. Of things and what you do and don't like and like, different, you know.

[Ryan]

Oh.

[Lindsay Roman]

Being a guest at a wedding is my favorite thing on planet Earth.

[Ryan]

I feel.

[Lindsay Roman]

Feel incredibly fun.

[Evie McLeod]

Well, sometimes if the photographer's doing their job extremely well, I just eventually forget they're there and I stop if they're doing their job bad. I'm the most judgmental person in the world, and I feel so bad to.

[Heidi]

Turn it off, isn't it?

[Ryan]

Relax.

[Heidi]

It's hard to turn it off.

[Evie McLeod]

I literally, like, will sit there and I'm like, like cringing. Like, what.

[Ryan]

What are they doing?

[Evie McLeod]

What are they doing?

[Heidi]

Part. Part of this. Part of this comes with experience. Part of this comes with checking your ego at the door. Yeah. I think, like, but people, you know. Yeah. Probably a lot of these people who don't do those two things are or don't, you know, check their ego and aren't kind to people do not have a very good career situation ahead of them.

[Evie McLeod]

No.

[Ryan]

You know what's so funny, though? I always think about when we first started our career and our journey and, like, developing our portfolio and, like, going after those, like, dream weddings to really be like, like, you know, benchmark weddings for us. And we were, like, teaching a lot back in the day too. Something we used to tell people is, like, shoot selfishly and shoot what you want in your portfolio. Right. Like, you need to shoot for, like, your aesthetic. And if you really are into portraits, like, you need to make the portraits happen on the day. And which we did, but in a way that we could still be nice to our couples. But we definitely went after, like, the shots that we really wanted. I feel like it's. Maybe it's because we built that portfolio already and we got that out of our system and now we're just needed. Well, yeah, I would say shifted a lot.

[Heidi]

I would just say that perhaps we dodged a bullet in that we. For many years, probably it just. It lined up that our selfish interests were also what the client wanted.

[Evie McLeod]

Right.

[Heidi]

But. But perhaps, like, long term, that that might not be the best strategy. I mean, I forget who it. Who said this as an educator a very long time ago, but you could always follow the rule of, like, one for me, one for them. And, you know, and there's a. There's ways to get around that. But yeah, Anyway.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

I also. I also think there is an element that if, like, with everything you guys. You guys are saying, if, like, if you've promote or marketed yourself and presented yourself as like, hey, here is my style, here's my approach. I specialize in, like, portraiture and romantics on a wedding day and then candidates throughout, you know, but that's like, the time. And here's kind of my minimum of what I can deliver based on what you see in my galleries. And then you can go up on the wedding day and be able, like, you and the client are on the same page. So there is a way still. Yeah, there is a way to, like, you communicated ahead of time of, like, here's what I do or what I even, like, I feel like back in the day when I was kind of getting started and doing some of these weddings, I remember with some of my, like, budget beginning, like, brides that I was kind of. Kind of like they knew I was newer or whatever. I would communicate to them sometimes, like, hey, I really want to experiment with a day after session. Or X, Y and Z. Like, could we.

[Ryan]

I'm gonna film camera. Yeah, exactly, Exactly.

[Evie McLeod]

But, like, that communication, I feel like that's all. Sometimes that's necessary in those situations. If you are, like, for the listener who's here being like, I am trying to shift my style a little bit. Like, either you just, like, if it's actually a shooting style, like, one for them, one for me, whatever. Or like, just communicate it. Be like, hey, I'm trying to lean a little bit more into the editorial style versus, you know, documentary or candid. Do you mind if we do a few photos during the getting ready and the, you know, the sunset photos or the portraits, like, where I really pose. You guys, here's an example of what that could look like if you just communicate it. Literally, I think that's the biggest thing. Or like, hey, I'm trying to introduce film. Like, you're saying, nine times out of.

[Heidi]

10, they'll be on board.

[Ryan]

Yeah, if you do communicate it.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing. Like, I love that you're like, there is a time and place where you're. Especially if you're trying to shift or introduce something new or experiment with something, you just literally have to communicate it to your clients and be like, hey, here's what I'm experimenting with or trying. And here's an example of what it could look like. No guarantees. Are you willing to, you know, try something fun with me? And yeah, like, you're saying nine times out of ten, they love it. They're on board. And then you're able to do what you need to do with them on board. And it's not like this weird, like, trying to go behind their Back on their wedding day, which makes me cringe even thinking about. So I love that. Okay, I have a question for you guys on the side. Just kind of like, I may be wrapping up. I feel like we could talk for, like, five hours with you. So we might just go long form on this one. It's three hours long. What would you say for the listener who's here, who is like, I love this concept of associates. I am way too booked. I'm, you know, at a max. I don't really want to raise my prices more. I'm very happy with the clients I'm serving in this price point. Whatever. What would you say for the person who's like, hey, I really want to start looking for an associate. Where the frick do I start? What. What advice would you give them? Like, what do they look for?

[Heidi]

Yeah, I mean, so just some of the ways we've done it would be word of mouth. So put. Just putting the word out there with planners, other photographers. We, for after it all, we made a formal, like, job post, job posting that got circulated around in different Facebook groups. It ended up on Reddit, it ended up in different places, Instagram, all that kind of stuff. And so.

[Ryan]

And we, like, held interviews.

[Heidi]

So literally you could just do something kind of a little bit more formal like that. But other people we've been connected with through another person, second shooter. Trying to think of who else we've got. Our. Like, I said, our editor became a shooter. It really.

[Ryan]

Our studio manager became a shooter. A shooter. Wasn't interested in shooting weddings whatsoever. When we met, she started with us and she's like, I just want to, like, have, like, remote work, side job.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And then she's like, wait, I think weddings are actually really fun. Like, and so we just like, yeah, we just brought her onto the team.

[Heidi]

You know, the other thing I would just not note on that is work on yourself. Like, develop yourself as an artist. Be someone that has a gravitational pull that people want to be near, that people want to be associated with your work. Don't expect people to be, like, ready to just, like, jump on board with you so you can make money off them just because you're like, have a few extra leads per year. So, like, be. Be someone that is inspiring to them and someone that they could potentially look up to. So I think those things are also important. It's just like, don't expect so much from these people. Like, yeah, work. Work on yourself a little bit too.

[Evie McLeod]

I love it.

[Lindsay Roman]

Oh, man. Okay, one of our final questions, if you Were to start all over again and do it all over again, what would you do differently, if anything?

[Heidi]

That's a tough one. I saw that question, so. Because, like, the reason it's tough is because like all of the failures we've had and there have been many we've learned, we've come out of it with like a growing experience.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah. They teach you something. Something.

[Heidi]

Absolutely. And if you're not looking at your failures that way, you are doing it wrong. Like, you have to look at every time a client says no, every time a business move goes wrong, every time some kind of lead generation thing you just tried just fails. Like, that cannot be a way to like get you down. You got to use that to launch to something else. I mean, we've got like there was, I mean, there was so many ridiculous. At one point we were, we had a DJ and a wedding planner on a our team and I think we like that. We realized very quickly, like, that didn't make any sense. Thankfully, there's like very little downside to that. But like, there's been, you know, there's been little random things. Like truthfully though, we're so happy where we are now. We're finding like a really nice groove. So it's really hard to say, like, let me go back and course correct something because would we have ended up in this position? I don't know. I love that. But yeah, I don't know. Just a general note on failures and stuff like that. I guess there's, there's. That could, that could be a whole podcast probably.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, I love it. I think that's such a wise approach too. To be like, hey, even if I could go back and recognize like that I regret that decision in like the business, but would I be here today if not for that decision? Like, that's just.

[Ryan]

You really do have to learn on your own sometimes. Like hearing from other people. Like, until you actually go through the struggle of a failure, you. You don't really understand.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And then like do it right the next time.

[Heidi]

I love that. I mean, like, just as a quick example is like we for the first kind of chunk of our career focused so much on being worldwide destination, exotic location photographers and photo video team. But now, now, for many years now, it's been a hyper focus on a local market, which is the New York City market. So could we look back and say like, oh, well, like knowing where we are now, maybe it would have just made sense to focus on New York the whole time. But the sort of cachet we had of being worldwide photographers actually helped us book local jobs. And it was even exotic in the other way that we'd go shoot a wedding in Ireland or New Zealand and people were like, oh, we. We have these New York City photographers. So, like, I don't know, it's just, I think, looking at things with a perspective of, like, learning, growing from and.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, I love that.

[Ryan]

So good.

[Lindsay Roman]

I could literally talk to y'all forever.

[Evie McLeod]

And I was like, where did the time go?

[Ryan]

It feels like. Honestly, though, it feels like it hasn't been that long talking to you.

[Lindsay Roman]

You know, this has been such an easy conversation. I don't think we asked a single actual, like, maybe question on this list. We were just like, yeah, flowing.

[Evie McLeod]

We just went off.

[Heidi]

That's okay. That's ok. Yeah, I mean, it's funny because a lot of people, we don't, like, like, go out of our way to advertise it. A lot of people don't know that we have, like, a sister company or even that, like, how the studio thing works. So, Yeah, I mean, it's always a fun conversation.

[Evie McLeod]

It's so helpful, hopefully. Hopefully helpful, yeah. Well, no, I. I know for a.

[Lindsay Roman]

Fact, like, so many listeners are listening to this and you're giving them so many ideas or so many things that they didn't think about or didn't know that they could do. And just like. So thank you so much for even being here.

[Evie McLeod]

Even the foundational pieces that you guys brought of not only, like, hey, here's our business model, here's how it works really well for us, here's, you know, all these things that we've done, what to look for in an associate. But I feel like the foundational piece that you guys brought today that I feel like is needed in this industry in general as a service industry, is like, the heart posture, the character, the integrity, the willingness to, like, you know, be like, I'm so sorry you feel that way, even though you may genuinely be like, that wasn't our fault.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

Like, that we didn't do anything wrong. But, you know, at the end of the day. Yeah, there's also an element that you could say, like, hey, at the end of the day, if you're unhappy, I did something wrong. Even if. Even if.

[Ryan]

How can I help make this better if you're unhappy, how can I make you happy?

[Evie McLeod]

Yes.

[Ryan]

Like, I want, you know, it's. There's no point. You can't change what's happened. You can only say, what are we going to do moving forward? And I'm a Big component to help you in that way.

[Heidi]

I mean, we've done well over a thousand weddings collectively and it's one or two times maybe where we felt like it was genuinely just an aggressively bad enemy situation or something where there's wrong things. But for the most part, when you approach it with that kind of response and care, I think people meet you in the middle and they. And they don't want to trash you online or anything like that.

[Ryan]

And just like a follow up on it. I know this is like completely separate. I feel like becoming a parent. I know this can sound so cheesy. Tools that I've had to learn when my 3 year old is having a meltdown and I had to get on their level and even though they're psychotic, I had to be like, honey, honey, I'm so sorry you feel this way. That's how I learned to talk to brides.

[Heidi]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

It'd be like it's okay to feel sad.

[Lindsay Roman]

That is so iconic.

[Ryan]

You're a big feeling.

[Heidi]

I'm so sorry. I. I prepared this dinner to exactly your specifications and now you are having a flip out moment. I did something wrong here.

[Lindsay Roman]

The plate isn't orange and it's blue.

[Ryan]

Instead we make this catastrophic hours were made this right.

[Lindsay Roman]

That is my favorite.

[Ryan]

So sorry you feel this place.

[Lindsay Roman]

This is my favorite part of today is that you compared Hell Brides to a toddler. That's my favorite thing.

[Heidi]

There's some overlap. There's some overlap.

[Ryan]

Relatable.

[Lindsay Roman]

Well, on that note, wow.

[Evie McLeod]

For any, for any listeners who are sitting here like you would dare compare your client to a toddler. Just go watch the sepia game.

[Ryan]

Exactly.

[Evie McLeod]

And just. You'll understand where we're.

[Ryan]

You'll understand.

[Heidi]

Yes.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

Yes.

[Evie McLeod]

Oh, I love it, you guys.

[Lindsay Roman]

Thank you guys.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Lindsay Roman]

So much for being here. This was a joy.

[Ryan]

Let us know.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, we will be there this spring.

[Lindsay Roman]

We will come.

[Ryan]

It'll be so fun. We'll come. When are we coming for drinks in the city?

[Evie McLeod]

Early mid April.

[Lindsay Roman]

April 13th.

[Heidi]

We have a child trying to barge in our door right now.

[Evie McLeod]

Really? They're like, it's time.

[Lindsay Roman]

They're like, it's time. You've been on here long enough.

[Heidi]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fine. It's a good, good send off.

[Evie McLeod]

I love it. Okay, where can everyone find you? Let's plug your.

[Heidi]

Your social.

[Evie McLeod]

Your website.

[Heidi]

Like, we're honestly not that many places, but just like our Instagram is definitely by far the most social thing we have.

[Ryan]

And then forged to the north. Yeah.

[Heidi]

Right. Yep.

[Ryan]

And then we do have an after doll handle, too, but we're not like.

[Heidi]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I would say if people are interested in, like, checking out that sister company, I would just go to the website and they can kind of get a vibe, but after it all die and. Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

Amazing.

[Lindsay Roman]

Thank you guys so much for being here.

[Evie McLeod]

You guys are the best.

[Heidi]

Thanks so much for having us.

[Ryan]

Have a good rest of your day, guys.

[Lindsay Roman]

Thank you.

[Ryan]

Bye.

[Heidi]

See you. Bye.