430: The Answers for Recurring Pregnancy Losses That NO ONE Tells You with Jordan Lee Dooley

Summary

The Heart & Hustle Podcast - Episode 430 Summary Title: The Answers for Recurring Pregnancy Losses That NO ONE Tells You with Jordan Lee Dooley

Hosts: Evie McLeod & Lindsey Roman
Guest: Jordan Lee Dooley
Release Date: April 22, 2025

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1. Introduction to Jordan Lee Dooley

In this emotionally charged episode, hosts Evie McLeod and Lindsey Roman welcome back Jordan Lee Dooley for the third time. Celebrated as a bestselling author and a powerhouse in health, wellness, and women's faith, Jordan shares her profound journey through recurrent pregnancy losses.

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2. Jordan’s Personal Journey with Recurrent Pregnancy Loss

Jordan opens up about her heartbreaking experiences with pregnancy loss, highlighting how unforeseen and devastating these events can be, even for someone who appears healthy and young.

[06:41] Jordan Lee Dooley:
"I really didn't think that would happen to me. I thought it was a pregnant, healthy, young person."

Jordan recounts her first miscarriage caused by a subchorionic hematoma, followed by a second loss at 13 weeks. Despite initial optimism, her journey was marred by confusion and grief, underscoring the unpredictability of pregnancy.

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3. Challenges with the Healthcare System

Jordan emphasizes the lack of proactive care in the healthcare system regarding fertility and pregnancy health. She expresses frustration over healthcare providers who dismissed her concerns without offering comprehensive guidance or testing.

[26:58] Jordan Lee Dooley:
"There’s such a huge problem and it’s a huge injustice to women and to couples and to families in the system."

Both Jordan and Evie share experiences of feeling unsupported by their OBGYNs and midwives, who often provided minimal assistance after each loss, reinforcing the need for more specialized care.

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4. Proactive Testing and Solutions

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the importance of proactive testing to identify underlying causes of recurrent pregnancy losses. Jordan shares key tests she wishes she had known about early on:

• Progesterone Levels: Essential for maintaining early pregnancy.
• Thyroid Function: Thyroid issues can significantly impact fertility and pregnancy.
• Blood Clotting Disorders: Conditions like MTHFR mutations and antiphospholipid syndrome can inhibit conception and lead to miscarriages.

[21:26] Jordan Lee Dooley:
"Having low progesterone is a really common cause of early miscarriages… it was the progesterone is fine, the next thing is... thyroid."

Jordan advocates for working with Naprotechnology (Napro) providers—MDs with specialized training in fertility and recurrent loss—who offer a more thorough and supportive approach compared to standard OBGYNs.

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5. Adoption and Building Her Family

Amidst her struggles, Jordan and her husband felt a calling to serve others by adopting children in need. This decision led to the adoption of a son and the birth of a biological son five months apart, illustrating a beautiful convergence of loss and gain.

[15:05] Jordan Lee Dooley:
"We ended up having an adopted son and a biological son five months apart."

The couple's experience underscores the multifaceted paths to building a family and finding hope amidst despair.

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6. Lessons Learned and Advice for Others

Jordan provides invaluable advice for women navigating similar challenges:

• Advocate for Yourself: Don’t hesitate to request specific tests and seek out knowledgeable providers.
• Understand Your Options: From proactive blood work to specialized reproductive immunology, knowing your choices can empower you.
• Seek Specialized Care: Providers trained in Naprotechnology or reproductive immunology can offer deeper insights and effective treatments.

[27:02] Jordan Lee Dooley:
"You have to be your own advocate. You can and you just have to be your own advocate."

Evie reinforces the importance of finding supportive and proactive healthcare providers, highlighting her positive experience with a Napro doctor who was instrumental in her own pregnancy success.

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7. Empowering Women: Advocacy and Knowledge

The episode culminates with a powerful message of empowerment. Jordan and the hosts encourage listeners to take control of their fertility journeys by staying informed, seeking the right support systems, and believing in their ability to overcome challenges.

[65:18] Evie McLeod:
"You are not powerless. You are not out of control in this process."

This heartfelt discussion not only sheds light on the often-overlooked aspects of recurrent pregnancy loss but also offers hope and practical guidance to women striving to fulfill their dreams of motherhood.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jordan Lee Dooley [06:41]:
  "I really didn't think that would happen to me. I thought it was a pregnant, healthy, young person."

• Jordan Lee Dooley [21:26]:
  "Having low progesterone is a really common cause of early miscarriages… it was the progesterone is fine, the next thing is... thyroid."

• Jordan Lee Dooley [27:02]:
  "You have to be your own advocate. You can and you just have to be your own advocate."

• Evie McLeod [65:18]:
  "You are not powerless. You are not out of control in this process."

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Final Thoughts: Episode 430 serves as a crucial resource for women facing recurrent pregnancy losses, providing not only personal stories of resilience and hope but also actionable steps to navigate the complexities of fertility and maternal health. Jordan Lee Dooley’s candid insights and the hosts’ supportive dialogue create an empowering narrative, encouraging listeners to seek the answers they deserve and to reclaim control over their reproductive journeys.

Transcript

[Lindsay Roman]

You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast. We are your hosts, Lindsay Roman and Evie McLeod. I said my name first.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Wow. What is happening?

[Lindsay Roman]

Oh, well, we're rolling with it. Welcome back to the show, my friend. We are so excited that you're here. Today's episode is going to be such a good one. We have had the pleasure of having the incredible and beautiful and wonderful great friend of ours, Jordan Lee Dooley, on the show for I believe the third time. And she's incredible. Literally. She requires no bio. Y'all know who she is. But I'll say some things about her anyway because she's just that phenomenon.

[Evie McLeod]

She deserves the hype.

[Lindsay Roman]

She literally does deserve the hype. She is a best selling author times two, almost times three, probably because you know it's gonna slay when her book comes out this fall. She is the host of the she podcast. She is literally just like an icon in health and wellness and women's faith. Yeah, I don't know why I said it like that, but she's just incredible. If you don't follow her, you absolutely need to. And she came on the show. Evie, do you wanna share what we. You probably can tell by the title, but Evie's gonna break it down.

[Evie McLeod]

Yes. So Jordan came on and kind of shared her jo Reproductive health slash recurrent pregnancy losses. And you know, getting answers to those recurrent losses. It is a very meaty topic. And I just want to say immediately up front, if you are in a very, very tender place with the topic of pregnancy loss, I would maybe recommend just waiting until you're in a slightly better emotional mental place before listening to this. Just because for the most part, I don't feel like there's anything triggering except one conversation which was very honest and she, Jordan, gave a trigger warning before that. So you could probably skip like a minute or so ahead and you'd be totally fine. It wasn't much of the episode at all, but if you're in the place where you don't even want to hear or talk about pregnancy loss, this might not be the episode for you right now. But I this episode is for any woman who is wanting answers, solutions, step by step, guidance, what to do to either prevent or as much as possible prevent any pregnancy losses in your future, or if you've had any in the past, to get answers, to be able to resolve that problem, to heal, to work on, to fix whatever is happening within the body, to have your final story actually be within your control. And also, hey, let's just all admit within our ultimate dream of what we're working towards as women and what we would love to be mothers and all of that. So Jordan shared her journey of recurrent pregnancy loss. She shared her process. She kind of breaks it down into three tiers of, you know, hey, maybe this is some initial things you should run. Here's the next phase based on those answers and here's kind of the third phase that you'll probably want to go into on getting answers and resolution in this area. So it is a very meaty topic. There is a lot thrown around. But I also feel like it is a very confusing world in general and our healthcare system isn't exactly set up to help women find answers or to fix the underlying causes of the any problems that arise. And Jordan broke it down so seamlessly in a way that was so easy to understand. It could feel overwhelming to like just step into this world and be like, wait, what? But I feel like Jordan was able to really give us such a clear hey, do not be distracted, do not be overwhelmed. Start here, then here, then here, based on how your journey goes. So it was an incredibly informative episode. Very, very powerful. So if you are a woman hoping to have armor in your tool belt of what to do, how to navigate pregnancy in the healthiest way to prevent as much as possible any pregnancy losses or miscarriages, I really want to encourage you listen to this episode. I truly believe this could change your story and your journey to motherhood or in motherhood, if you are already a mom. So without that being said, let's dive in and hear from Jordan. If we asked a room full of people this question, we are sure just about every hand in the room would be raised, ours included. Whether it's in your business, in motherhood, school, or even your marriage, there are moments when we all feel like we are filled with doubt and inadequacy. So if you're feeling this way, ain't alone, my friend. We are here to help you reframe the thought patterns in your life to live in freedom and enjoy Download our free guide to smashing that imposter syndrome [e-mail] impostor.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Hey.

[Unknown]

Hey. I'm Lindsay Roman.

And I'm Evie McLeod and we are.

[Evie McLeod]

Family and legacy focused serial entrepreneurs and the founders of the Hart University, a business education company with a mission to help you thrive in your business and life.

[Unknown]

Welcome to our entrepreneur cocktail hour where business and marketing strategies meet faith real.

[Lindsay Roman]

Talk and raw and life changing conversations.

[Evie McLeod]

At the end of the day, we are all in this together, figuring out how to navigate the ups and downs, the messy and the beautiful, and everything in between. This is a community where you can come as you are, get inspired and walk away, equipped to build a legacy filled life.

[Lindsay Roman]

You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast. Jordan, welcome to the show. Is this the third time? I think it's the third time.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Second or third I've been here before.

[Lindsay Roman]

So you were one of our first guests ever. And then you came on the show with Matt, I think, to talk about marriage, entrepreneurship.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

I.

[Lindsay Roman]

But I don't think we've had you on a third time. So this officially is the third.

[Evie McLeod]

Well, also the first time you were just on was like five or six years ago, so this is overdue.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

No, it's like episode three, a long time. Like, I realized it's been six years since I started my show, and I know you guys were pretty close to that as well. Ye. Like, we are some seasoned vets at this.

[Evie McLeod]

We.

[Lindsay Roman]

We are.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Time I've been on so.

[Lindsay Roman]

Well, we're so excited to have you on. We're very excited for today's conversation. I think this is a conversation that just isn't talked about a lot. It's never talked about. I feel like in, like, the pregnancy world, I feel like it all gets the reason you have to. Well, yeah, it's like it's such a common thing that happens, but the. The technical and the solution is never talked about. So we're excited to dive in with you.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

[Evie McLeod]

I love it. Okay. Jay, are you willing to kind of like just give us. For anyone who doesn't know your story in general, I'm trying to decide if.

[Lindsay Roman]

I specific to this topic.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, like how. I don't know how in depth you want to go, but if you want to at least give like, an overview of your journey in motherhood and all of that to just kind of give a little context for this episode.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

So now it's been close to six years ago when we first started trying to grow our family and we got pregnant really quickly the first time. I remember thinking, oh, great. Like, we don't struggle with fertility. Awesome. And very quickly, a few weeks later learned I was not accurate in that assumption and had a miscarriage. I actually had a subchorionic hematoma, which, if you want to talk about that at some point, we can, because that's something that we've had conversations about often. But anyway, I had that, but there was still a heartbeat. It was really confusing, but I was bleeding and I was like, what is going on? Anyway, sadly, that pregnancy ended, and I really didn't think that would happen to me. I thought it was a pregnant, healthy, young person. In fact, when I first went to the OR when I went to my OB probably like 6 months prior to that, and told her we were thinking about starting a family, she gave me literally zero guidance, suggestions, anything. Literally all she said is, great, you're young and healthy. You'll be fine. Like, good luck. Like, that was pretty much it. And so anyway, I was kind of, like, stunned just because I thought that the doctor said I would be fine, you know. And so again, I was similarly talking, you know, talking with an ob. They said it was probably a fluke. You know, you're young, you're healthy, like, give it another try. And so, of course, we did, a few months later, got pregnant again and carried that pregnancy through the end of the first trimester. I thought we were in the clear. We took pregnancy announcement photos at the beach. Like, we just thought, oh, my gosh, this is like the rainbow. And then still lost that baby. Very shockingly, at an ultrasound, we found we lost the baby at about 13 weeks. So that was a pretty shocking thing to go. Okay, this isn't just a fluke. This is happening multiple times now. What is going on? And you might hear my.

[Evie McLeod]

I love it.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

I can't tell you.

[Evie McLeod]

Like, I'm, like, tearing up hearing because.

[Lindsay Roman]

You'Re literally telling the beginning of your story, and if anybody can hear the background, you get a little sneak peek of where the story is ending.

[Evie McLeod]

Spoiler.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Yeah, I know. I'm like, this is. That's. Now we're in a beautiful season where it's, like, hard to record podcasts sometimes.

[Lindsay Roman]

But that's the best problem to have, though.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

It truly is. And that's why I'm like, just hear it. Because, like, I hope it gives hope to somebody who might be in the season of just, you know, struggling and waiting. But anyway, so had that loss, and I had a really difficult recovery with that one. So I just felt like I need to take some time. And I feel like I knew in my gut there was something off. I'm like, okay, this isn't making sense. We need to figure it out. So I started the testing process. I started trying to get answers. I did find some. We found that I had the MTHFR mutation, which maybe some people are familiar with. I'm happy to explain that. But basically, in a nutshell, it can lead to an increase in the likelihood of getting of clots Forming like in the placenta and as the baby's developing as well as it basically means your body doesn't break down folic acid as well. So prenatals of folic acid aren't great. So that was a big eye opening, like, oh, okay, I need to switch up what type of prenatal I'm taking and maybe take a baby aspirin. So found that, found a little bit of thyroid stuff going on. So once we kind of over that next six to 12 months, learned some of those things and got a little bit more of clarity, a little bit more clarity on what might be going on, and we began trying again with kind of a plan in place. We thought, okay, this is what we'll do the next time around.

[Evie McLeod]

And.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

And then I just wasn't getting pregnant. Like month after month after month after month after month went by and I was like, what? Like every time? The last two times it was so quick and so had to then go on this. I'm like, great, now we're dealing with this too. So kind of had to go down another rabbit hole of trying to get answers as to why all of a sudden I couldn't get pregnant. And it turned out that finally, after doing multiple, you know, tests and procedures and whatnot, that I had something called endometritis. So what had happened in my second miscarriage? I had retained tissue a little bit and it took some time for that to pass heal properly and it triggered a low grade chronic infection in my endometrial lining.

[Lindsay Roman]

Wait, just to clarify, was it left, was it leftover tissue from the first.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Miscarry from the second?

[Evie McLeod]

Because it was further along the second?

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Yeah. I'm so sorry.

[Lindsay Roman]

I'm so sorry. And you're saying that's what was causing the.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

That's the hypothesis. I mean, I guess there's no way to really like prove that, but they. I had a dnc. There was leftover tissue that like, we had to deal with weeks later. And although it seems like my cycles came back and everything seemed pretty normal, there had been a little bit of an infection triggered. And there's, there's something called acute endometri, which is much more common. When you think of an infection, you get the fever, you get all of the common symptoms of like, oh, something's really off. I never had that. So it was like completely undetected. And so I finally met with a doctor who said, you know, there's such thing as chronic endometritis, which is just like a low grade inflammation of your lining that could be, you know, inhibiting conception. It might be worth looking into. So we did what they call a hysteroscopy. They looked into that. Long story short, that was why I wasn't conceiving. I was able to treat that. And then the next month, we got pregnant again finally. And we thought, oh, my gosh, this must be the miracle we found on a Mother's Day weekend. And a few months or a few weeks later, we lost that baby, too. And Lindsey actually, like, packed up and drove from. Were you living in Kansas City at the time?

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah, we were. Yeah. Maybe it would be cooler if we lived in Florida, because that would've been farther of a drive than Kansas to Indiana.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

She literally packed up her car with her kids and, like, just showed up at our. Like, she didn't even show up. She, like, dropped off. Like, what was it like?

[Lindsay Roman]

No, no, it was. It was a bottle of tequila.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Thank you.

[Lindsay Roman]

Like, we showed up with a bottle of tequila and, like, got a hotel room because we were like, I. I have. Did I have two kids at the time? I think, yeah, I had two kids at the time. I'm like, I'm not about to show up with my children in front of somebody who has had her third miscarriage in a row. But I was like, I don't know, but it's hard.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Like. Like, you could have literally just shipped that. You know, like, most people send flowers and.

[Lindsay Roman]

Right.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

It just spoke so, like, volumes to me that you not only just drove. Like, it'd be one thing if you live 10 minutes down the street. She, like, drove, packed up her kids, and we ended up spending the weekend. I was like, please don't go. Stay in a hotel. Like, the fact that you showed up in my town. I'm going to see you.

[Lindsay Roman]

Okay. But we asked you, like, literally 5 million times. We were like, okay, but, like, we'll leave. Well, we will leave. We don't, like, don't even feel bad about it. Like, we did not bamboozle you into, like, staying at your house.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

No, it was honestly really sweet, and I think it was, you know, like, the Lord just knows what you need. And, you know, we have plenty, like, a beautiful community here, but there's something about when someone makes such an effort to just, like, show up for you that you just really feel loved. And I think everyone wants to be loved differently. It's so interesting because even through my losses, with what I needed after my first loss versus what I needed after my third was so different because my heart was just in such a different place. After the first, I was sad but still hopeful. After the third, I was like, over it, you know, I was just so defeated and I was like, forget it, like. And so anyway, long story short, that was kind of our. The way our family journey started. That was about a three year process just from first loss to the third loss. There was a period of infertility in between. And I really didn't know, like, will I ever have children Earthside? And in that whole, as we were going through all of that, my husband and I actually felt really convicted. We had heard about a program called Save Families through our church. And it's like a respite type care. It's similar to foster care, usually shorter term stays. And I had wanted to do it a few years prior before our family journey started, but it just wasn't the right time with where we lived and all that. So we heard about it again at church and we thought maybe in this season of like, struggling, as much as this is an area of our suffering, maybe this is an area we can serve because we have a home, we have resources, we have the ability to help families in crisis. And as much as that might be hard for us, maybe this is a time where we can use our availability to bless others. And so that was kind of. It was interesting because we ended up having two girls stay in our home. We had multiple children come through our home, but we had a longer stay of a sibling pair. And there were questions from the mother off and on, would you be interested in adopting them? Would you be open to that? And it forced us to have this conversation of would we consider adoption in this period of our life? Because we'd always wanted to, we always planned to eventually, but it just wasn't on our radar at that time. And when suddenly we were presented with the question, there were two children in our home, needing a space, a place to. To stay, we were like, well, yes, like, we both immediately had that conviction of like, we would be available to say yes to that. Ultimately, that didn't end up working out and that didn't end up leading to an adoption. And I think that ended up being for the best. But it started that journey for us of like, maybe I felt like the Lord just basically asked us, like, what if you open all the doors and just trust me with how I'm going to build your family, Trust me with the order. Don't try to force adoption, don't try to force fertility stuff. Just like, be open to both. And that was scary because I was like, well, what if both happened at the same time, what if neither happened? Like, it felt so vulnerable. But I also felt like that was a conviction on both of our hearts. Like, we were so aligned and, like, that's what we're being asked to do, as scary as that is. So we did. We started that process. We got a home study done. Long story short, we ended up having an adopted son and a biological son five months apart.

[Evie McLeod]

God's, like, plot twist.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Truly a plot twist. Like, the greatest double portion of my life. Like, I. I felt so unworthy of it, even though, like. Cause I felt like, through my last journey, I really struggled with my faith. I felt a lot of anger. Never like a. Never like a rejection of God. Just in anger. Like, I felt forgotten, you know, and then just to see. And it was interesting because I remember thinking after that third loss, and I'm sure we talked about this, Lindsay, when you were here, but it was all kind of a blur to me. But I remember feeling like, what was the point of that pregnancy? Like, what was the point of having to go 15, 16, however many months it was, struggling to conceive, to finally find out I'm pregnant on Mother's Day weekend, only to have it ripped away again? Like, I just don't get it. And then what was so interesting is I would have been due in January of 2023, like, middle of January. And when we saw my son, who we now have through adoption, when we saw his case come through, there were some things that, like, you know, didn't meet all of our preferences or whatever. But what was so, like, powerful about it is we saw the same due date. Like, that was the thing that we're like, we have to say yes, and we'll just trust God with the details. And it was crazy because within a day, we were chosen. Like, I said yes, but. We said yes, but I didn't think we would, like, be chosen as the family. And so to now go back and be like, you know, if we wouldn't have had that due date, that was, like, ripped away from us, I don't know that we would have said yes to his case. Like, that was such a, like, conviction for us and a connection for us that we felt just really strongly that we needed to, like, walk in obedience and say yes. And, like, now I can't picture it any other way. So sometimes you get those answers. You know, in hindsight, we're like, wow. Like, as painful as that was, I now understand why it had to be that way. And sometimes you don't. But either way, like, it doesn't mean there isn't, like, something beautiful at work, you know, so. So yeah, anyway, that's kind of like the quick overview of the journey, both the hard and the beautiful.

[Evie McLeod]

I love it. Oh, it's. It's so fun hearing, like, the recap after, like, kind of walking, like, as friends through so much of that and seeing it all, like, unfolding and hearing, you know, the journey to adoption and then, you know, being like, we. We got approved or, like, matched with a child and then it was like a text, like, oh, my gosh, I'm pregnant. Like, you know, the craziness of, like, all of this and just the way God revealed.

[Lindsay Roman]

I remember the. Well, the. Didn't you FaceTime every you FaceTime from the hospital?

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

So we didn't really. Because adoption, there's a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of uncertainty with everything, of course, but, you know, we didn't know it wasn't final until after the baby was born and all the papers were fine. Like, there was a process. And so because we had already been through multiple times of getting family and friends excited about an anticipated baby, only to then be like, never mind. You know, we kind of kept that close to our chest. We knew. We told some close family and friends that we were pursuing adoption as well and just trusting because for us. And I think this is something so important to share too, because I think sometimes when you hear someone's had a hard journey to parenthood or, like, fertility struggles, the quick assumption can be like, oh, well, like, just adopt, like, backup plan, plan B. And I felt really, really convicted that we needed to start that process when the Lord told us to before we were, like, at the end of our, like, parenting. Because I didn't want it to be a backup plan. I didn't see it as a backup plan. I felt like the Lord told us it was a. Both. And. And just to keep your hands open to both. And sometimes you get both. Sometimes you get one or the other regardless. Like, I. I kind of felt like the big takeaway for me was like, it's not that adoption is a backup plan to struggling with fertility, but sometimes a struggle to have biological children can reveal the calling to say yes to that you otherwise wouldn't have. And so anyway, yeah, but it was. What was the question? What did you ask me? I just.

[Lindsay Roman]

Oh, I was just. It wasn't really a question. It was more commenting on the fact that I just remember getting a random FaceTime from you. You were in the hospital and you Were like, you were literally like, meet my son. And then literally two seconds later you're like, BT Dubs, also pregnant.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Yes, we wa. Until our son was born. And then shared, you know, once the adoption was final or was, you know, complete, we shared with everyone via FaceTime. Shocked the hands off my grandma, off my brother. Like, literally the only people who knew was like, our parents and I think a couple close friends here. That helped us with, like a few of the details of travel in our home and stuff. But overall, 90% of people in our lives didn't know. And it was hard to keep that from, like, our siblings. They were like, low key, kind of offended, but they also understood given the nature of the situation. And so, yeah, and then with most of our friends who didn't know about either, I was like, oh, and also he's going to be a big brother. And they were like, wait, what? Like what? I mean, it was just. It was wild. So, yeah, we. But the biggest thing, you know, for me, I think through all of that was it was a really. And kind of. To what you guys have mentioned wanting to talk about a little bit is like, it was a really interesting uphill battle trying to get clarity and answers as to what was going on in my body. And I'm kind of like a. I think personality wise, we share some similarities, but I'm kind of like, relentless. I'm like, we're going to figure it out, you know, and there was a lot of surrender that had to happen too, because sometimes there's things you just don't get answers to. But I also think I truly feel, and I wish more women knew what even exists, what to ask for, where to start. Like, I have another really close family member that I love and adore who's going through their own fertility struggle. And one thing she said that I was like, that is literally the struggle is she said, I just feel like there's no direction. Like, I don't even know what to do first, second, or third. Like, what makes sense, what's too much. I mean, that's the question everyone's wrestling with when they walk through something like this. And so. And it's been interesting to see now, like, looking back, how I've been able to chat and talk and support so many different friends of mine and family members who are feeling like I did five, six, four years ago, where I was like, well, what now? Where do we start? Because everybody's story is unique, but I think there are some similar things that you can. You can investigate and questions you can ask. It's just knowing where to start.

[Evie McLeod]

So, yeah, I love it. Okay. Jordan, are you willing to kind of give us. Because obviously we've had conversations many. And the conversations, like, have been things like, what is. Where do I start? Like that. Like, you're saying that family friend or, you know, close friend, that you're like this. What do I do? Where do I start? Like, so for the woman listening who's like, hey, I've had one loss, or let's even say for the woman listening who's like, I'm considering trying to conceive, what are some things that I should even know? The woman who's had at least one loss who's like, I don't want to go down this route and keep running into the same brick road over and over. It's painful as frick. I don't want to do that. What would you say, like, starting point? Here are some things you wish you had known at the beginning of your journey.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Yeah, you know, it's really sad to me that our system is less. Is not very preventative when it comes to things like pregnancy loss, fertility. It's almost reactive. I have my theories as to why I won't get into it, but it's probable regardless, and it affects a lot of people. And, you know, I think I look back, I'm like, man, some of the initial testing they did for me after, I think it was my second loss, or I think I did a couple, like, hormone panels after my first. But some of that stuff is so simple. And unfortunately, one of the reasons a lot of people are not encouraged to do that is because insurance typically won't cover a whole lot of testing until at least two losses, sometimes after three, depending. And so it's a whole insurance issue. So it's obviously a personal choice, but if you take that part of the equation out of it, you just look at the pure, like, what are the proactive things that I can do? There's a lot. And I think you can overdo it sometimes and stress yourself out potentially unnecessarily. But at the same time, the rate of couples struggling to have a family is seemingly increasing quite a bit. And I've seen quite a bit of data showing that that actually has increased from, like, I think, one in eight to one in six. You know, things like that. And so let's. Let's be aware of that and find what can we do proactively. A couple really simple things that I wish I would have known. Now, I don't know that this would have fully resolved my issue, but it would have probably saved me a lot of time if, when I was at my OB and I told her, hey, I'm thinking about trying to, you know, have a family in the next six to 12 months. If she just said, awesome, let's check your thyroid, right? Let's check your progesterone, and let's maybe make sure you don't have any significant blood clotting issues that could cause issues with pregnancy, because those are well known, well studied, well documented risk factors for risk for miscarriages. A lot of early miscarriages. And it's just bizarre to me that they're like, you look healthy. You'll be fine. So progesterone, for example, is something that. And Evie, I know we've talked about this a lot, but having low progesterone is a really common cause of early miscarriages. Do you know how easy it is to get that tested? It's a blood test. And to most accurately test it, you want to test it, like, seven days after ovulation, nine days after ovulation, and maybe 11 days after ovulation to kind of see the pattern. Because sometimes doctors will pull progesterone one time, but a progesterone kind of, like, operates on a. Like, it kind of goes up and down. It's like a little roller coaster. So depending on the time of day and the time of your cycle, it might look great. But to really get an accurate picture, you want to have a couple draws to be able to see, like, how is it behaving after I ovulate? Is it significant enough to support a pregnancy? And then if you do get pregnant, does it stay high? There are people who have totally fine progesterone, you know, a week or so after they ovulate, and then it drops, and there's, you know, you gotta monitor that. So even just having a little bit of a picture, like, how does progesterone behave in my body? Do I have enough, you know, what are my hormones doing just throughout the second half of my cycle where it would have to support an early pregnancy? Those are things that can be done proactively and just get a. It's honestly like a baseline picture of your health, too, you know, not only for fertility and pregnancy reasons, but also just to know, are my hormones operating how they should? So a sex hormone panel, ideally, at least, knowing what progesterone is doing is a really simple thing I would have done prior to ever trying to grow my family had I known how much that can have an impact and how easily solvable it is if you know about it proactively. The other thing I mentioned was the thyroid. You know, thyroid has a huge impact on pregnancy in so many different ways. And a lot of times that's not something proactively checked for women who want to grow their family yet it's, it's so incredibly important to support a life and to be able to even conceive. A lot of doctors, a lot of standard obs, who may not even know that much about fertility will acknowledge that if a woman's TSH is over 2.5, that can be a red flag, that they can make it harder to conceive. It could lead to miscarriages, so they typically want to see it under 2.5. Why are they not checking that before a woman tries to conceive? You know, it's just like logic. And then, you know, the third thing, these are just kind of different categories. There are a couple of. There's actually quite a few potential blood clotting related things that, you know, can impact a pregnancy, ability to conceive and carry, et cetera. Some are not as recognized by the typical, you know, ob, GYN or provider, but there are some that are factor five Leiden antiphospholipid syndrome. A couple of these, again, all of these are simple blood tests. These are not invasive procedures. These are not going and getting a surgery. Right. And just to check those kind of proactively, I think would save a lot of people a lot of heartache, time, trauma. So those are a few things that I kind of wish I would have known. And so I often tell people who are thinking about pursuing fertility treatments, hey, rule these things out, or at least know where these things are prior to doing an IUI or whatever else they might be doing, because those are expensive and invasive procedures. Right. Or maybe you haven't even gotten to that point yet and you just think you'd like to start a family. It doesn't hurt to check those things. And there's very little downside and a lot of upside to knowing about them up front.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, it's like you said, it is the, the more I've gone along this journey of my own of like, loss and pregnancy and everything, it is mind boggling, genuinely mind boggling. And I think we have the same theories of why this is the case in, you know, standard of care in women's health and specifically pregnancy and obstetrics and all of that, but why these simple things aren't tested. And it's not more of a common awareness.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Women who rarely pap smears on women, which is incredibly more painful and invasive. Yeah, it's like, that's preventative care.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, it's. I.

[Lindsay Roman]

It's like, why do we stop there?

[Evie McLeod]

Well, the other thing too, the thing that, like, truly just really infuriated me in my journey and I feel like, Jay, you were the same way. Was the. The practice of, like, have multiple losses before they'll even begin any of that testing.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Right.

[Lindsay Roman]

It's like, oh, wait, let's wait till you have many traumas in your life and men will like, see you.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

And what's. What people don't realized. Actually, I'll share this book in a little bit, but there's a book that really kind of gave me a lot of the direction for me to kind of be able to figure out what was going on. And I'm not quoting it perfectly. I'll have to pull up the data. Maybe you can put in the show notes. But basically, the more miscarriages you have, the higher the risk of having another one.

[Evie McLeod]

It's crazy.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Why are we having women just go through that? You know what I mean? So it's like, it's one of those things where, yeah, it's a huge, huge problem and it's a huge injustice, I think, to women and to couples and to families in the system, in the medical system. Like, it's just. It's a very dismissed thing. It's a fluke. And there are absolutely some that are flukes. But if someone has two flukes in a row, that's not a fluke. Yeah, flukes often went off and then they have three healthy babies. You know what I mean? Yeah. So anyway. Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

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[Evie McLeod]

Well, because and correct me, I feel like, Jay, you know, you've been on this path and journey a lot longer and have done, I feel like more extensive research. So correct me if I'm wrong on this, but the I believe it's like what? A 30% chance of a miscarriage. Just in general, like one in three women tend to have a miscarriage at some point in their life. Or like one in three pregnancies end in miscarriages. Like I think the stat. And then out of those miscarriage causes, I believe, if I remember correctly, again, correct me if I'm wrong, 50% of miscarriages are chromosomal losses, which is something with the fetus or the baby wasn't properly developing, the body identified that and basically says this is a non viable pregnancy and terminates. Is that all correct data?

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

It is to a point. So that was the stat I want to pull up. I need a Google to be able to tell you accurately. So yes, like across the board that's typically what they say is like 50% of losses are caused by chromosomal issues. But in this, there's a book called Is yous Body Baby Friendly? And it was written by a guy named Dr. Alan Beer. And his, his kind of hypothesis on it is like that's not entirely accurate because what he found was a lot of his patients who were told like 50% of these losses are chromosomal. He said of people, especially those who are having recurrent losses, it's actually like hardly at all chromosomal.

[Evie McLeod]

Yes.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

So they kind of take that like from a macro picture. That might be true of 50% of miscarriages across the board. But if someone's had more than one, rarely is it a chromosomal thing. And it can be. There is a, there is something called DNA. Oh, what's it called? Translocation. So basically that's where the partners like the husband and the wife or the man and the woman, they have a translocation, meaning they have a higher likelihood when it comes to their genetics, their eggs and their sperm, there's a higher likelihood of them having genetic issues within their pregnancy. So there is a subset of the recurrent loss population that that makes sense that that is true for. But in general, like if you actually kind of apply it to a broader case, that's not typically the case. So it kind of, it's like yes, yes, and also no, if that makes sense. So I think that's where a lot of women do feel dismissed because if they've had two miscarriages, they're like, well, they probably are both genetic flukes and your body's taking care of it. Probably not. And there's a really easy blood test that you and your husband or you and your spouse or partner or whatever can both do to Quickly rule that out, that, you know, it's probably not that, or you can test the fetal tissue. That was a big tell for me. With my third loss, we actually. With the second one, we tried to do the chromosomal testing after the fact, and for some reason, they were not able to get information from that. There was like some contamination or whatever, so we didn't get that information. That was really frustrating. Frustrating. But after the third one, they were able to get that information. They said baby was completely genetically fine. So that was kind of a tell for me. I'm like, okay, there's something going on that has nothing to do with genetics. So, yeah, so it's like the answer is kind of like, yes in the general scheme of things, but in the recurrent loss population, not quite so much. Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

Well, that was the one thing within this conversation that. That I wanted to mention. I was curious what your thoughts were, Jay. I. I wish I had known during my first loss, when I was going actively miscarrying. I wish I had known that there was such a thing as a fetal tissue test to test for the chromosomal loss. Because I just assumed, because it is such a high chance, for the most part, on the macro perspective, like you said, of it just being a fluke, it was chromosomal. My body, everything was in alignment with my body. It wasn't anything, you know, that was out of line. Whatever. It was just not, quote, unquote, not viable pregnancy. And my body was doing what it needed to do. Whatever. I wish I had known about the tissue, fetal tissue testing for the chromosomal aspect. Because had I. I feel like I would have gotten an answer on that first one, seeing that it was non chromosomal and. Cause I did on my second, which, you know, Jay, but that gave, like you said for you, that gave me so many answers of direction of like, okay, you know, I don't need to explore all this. This, you know, genetic thing between me and my husband. I don't, you know, that's. It's not chromosomal. It is something that my body is or is not doing. And that get. It's like two completely different worlds of testing. And that gave me the answer of like, it's a fork in the road. And it gave me the answer.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

So I don't.

[Evie McLeod]

I don't want to say this for like, I don't want to scare women. I don't want to, like, you know, we've obviously, like, all three of us here have had miscarriages and we've had it's trauma and it's miserable, and it is the worst experience in the world in so many ways. So I don't want to let that taint and be like, I'm coming at this from this perspective because we've had multiple losses. But I also just want to put a bug in the ear of maybe the woman who's, I don't know, considering it, and be like, hey, if the worst happens and on your first. You do end up up losing the pregnancy, I wish I had known that on the first one to keep some of the issue. Yeah. Like, I wish I had done all of the.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

No one talks about that. You know what?

[Evie McLeod]

No one.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Like, something that I. This is a little bit morbid. So this could be a trigger. Like, I would just say, like, a little bit of a trigger warning here for anyone who may be walking this road or feel really anxious about this kind of thing, maybe don't listen to this part. But for those who, like, feel like, well, I just wish this was talked about more transparently.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Like, the actual experience of it. Right. Like, Lindsay and I, we've had conversations. Like, no, there's, like, a mini birth that happens.

[Lindsay Roman]

There's, like.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

There's the whole thing.

[Lindsay Roman]

My water broke.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Like, yeah, yeah. Like, no one tells you that, Right. And what I didn't really feel prepared for. I remember when I went home after my first miscarriage, like, at the doctor, they told me I miscarried, but, like, nothing had come out yet, right? And I remember thinking, like, am I just supposed to flush this down the toilet? Like, that feels really wrong. Like, that what? Like. And then I was like, but it feels really weird to, like, catch it. Like, there was just. Nobody tells you, like, hey, you can. Like, maybe a shower makes more sense, right? Like, being in the shower or, like, maybe utilizing something to catch it, because that might be something where you want to tell fetal tissue or you want to do a burial for closure. Like, you don't get that with a miscarriage. It's a very silent, very unseen loss. And there's, like, for our. Like, in any other loss situation, we're having a funeral. We're having a service of light or a celebration of life. We're having some sort of, like, closure to that experience, even if it's a traumatic loss. Except in this case, it's like, just flush it. Like, what? I mean, it just is so insane. I mean, like, literally, that's a figure of speech. But that's also true in these cases, and I think those are the types of Things that need to be talked about of, like, hey, these are some things you can do. This is the test you have the option to pursue from the very beginning. Ask them to test your fetal tissue if you'd like. If you'd rather not do that and that's not comfortable for you, that's fine. But, like, you don't. Like, no one talked. I had to talk through that with my mom. She's like, I don't know. I've never done this before. Like, what do we do? I'm like, so I just. I wish that was kind of a more candid conversation so that women knew, like, yeah, you can do that. And that actually could be really helpful, because if you test the fetal tissue and they tell you, yeah, it's a chromosomal thing, then you can probably go into your next pregnancy. You could either do the blood test between you and your husband to find out, do we have an increased risk of this, or was this truly a fluke? Then you can go into your next pregnancy or trying again with a little bit more confidence, knowing it was probably just one of those flukes that happened. But if it's not that, then that opens up a whole new world of things you might want to look into. And unfortunately, that's a much more complex testing process because there's so many different things within our body, mechanisms that can go wrong and dysfunction and whatnot because of the broken world we live in. But at least you have direction, action of, like, where do I begin? What do I focus on? So, yeah, I want to be.

[Lindsay Roman]

I want to be practical, Paulie, for a second. And, okay, say somebody comes out. Say somebody. Either they're. They're trying, or maybe they've already got pregnant after a loss and that maybe they've tested the tissue before this, and so maybe they've realized the fork on the road is probably the. The not chromosomal genetic road, but it's the other road. I know you both said, like, go get your blood. This is just me being like, okay, but I like practicality. Where does one, like, get their blood? Do you go to your ob? Is there just, like a. Like, a place that you can get. Or, like, I'm just thinking of, like, all of the different. Because for somebody that's never stepped foot into this world and they're listening to this podcast, and maybe they've had recurrent losses, and they're like, okay, I need to go get my blood test. Where Is there a specific place? Do I need to do that? But then once I walk in those doors, they're gonna look at me like, okay, what do you want? Or like, what do you say? I need this exact. I'm looking for this exact. Does that make sense?

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Like, absolutely. Let me give you a little bit of like a guide to this. Because as much as I'd love to say, yeah, call your family provider, your OB and ask for these things, it's not always that straightforward, as I wrote down. So things first for some of these initial tests. Typically if you request them, they may push back a little bit because they don't love doing those things. Insurance may or may not cover it. So getting to those hurdles, you know, if you can be a good self advocate and you can, you know, whether you pay out of pocket or you have a discount or you can utilize insurance or whatever, whatever you can usually request, hey, this is what I want to do. I want a four point hormone panel or I want a three point hormone panel after my ovulation. Here's why. And if you get pushback or they tell you no, the good thing is there's something called requestatest.org or.com. let me look, let me see.

[Evie McLeod]

I think it's.com?

[Lindsay Roman]

Can we say that slowly again? What was it?

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Yeah, requestatest.com. yeah, I just double checked. So you can actually order some of your own labs, such as progesterone or a sex hormone panel or whatever. And you can order it and go to a Quest or a LabCorp and have them draw it. Now where that's going to get a little bit tricky is if you don't know how to interpret them, that's where you want to find a provider who can help interpret them. A lot of times an OB can't help you interpret them, or a midwife might be able to help you interpret them, or you could work with. There's a provider that I really recommend. They're pretty much all over the country. They're called naprotechnology providers. They are MDs. They're normal OBs or family physicians, but they have additional training in things like fertility and recurrent pregnancy loss. And so, Evie, I know you've connected with one and I don't even think they live near you. Right.

[Evie McLeod]

No, he's in, he's in California. I'm in Florida.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Yeah. So I work with them virtually, typically. So that's where looking. And a lot of times Napa technology doctors are covered by insurance, at least some of the testing and initial workup you'll do, because they are like, they're not like a specialty fertility. They're not true. Like fertility clinics, okay? They're. They're doctors who have additional training. So that's actually a really great place to start if you're wanting to be a little bit more proactive in your standard OB or your standard. Standard midwife or whatever is not really super supportive. Or they don't really know how to read your thyroid labs, right? Like, a lot of times they'll run a T4 and a TSH, which is a part of the thyroid, and it gives you a clue and a picture as to how your thyroid's functioning. But to really get a full picture, you want to run a full panel and you want to work with a provider who knows how to interpret those labs and be able to help you make adjustments as necessary. And so that's why I suggest naprotechnology, because typically it's covered by insurance, or at least some of it is. They have more training than the average OB or, you know, whatnot on these specific types of things that you might want to get tested on, the MTHFR mutations, on the blood clotting things, on the thyroid, on the progesterone, all of that kind of stuff. And they can provide a lot more guidance. So what you might want to do is do your own requesttotest.com, go to Quest, go to LabCorp, get your own blood drawn, and do it accordingly. If you want to test your progesterone, order a couple tests and do it at 7, 9, and 11 days after you ovulate, something like that. And then if you get those labs and you're, like, armed with them, because either you're a napro doctor or provider, your ob, whoever, is going to order them for you, or you're going to order them yourself, regardless, you can come with a lot of that information ready and then sit down with a napa provider on Zoom or in person or whatever and say, hey, this is some of the initial testing I've done. Help me understand the results. Help me understand what to do from here. So that's typically what I'm going to recommend. There are reproductive endocrinologists, which are the, the iui, ivf, typical fertility doctors. Sometimes that can be helpful. Sometimes that feels really aggressive. If you're like, I haven't even started trying yet, or I've had one miscarriage. Like, I don't know if that makes sense for me. So that's why I don't necessarily know that that's the best route to just get started. But that's kind of a little bit of a guide on pursuing some of that initial blood work and testing.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, I want to throw in there a little bit of my experience with Napro because I like genuinely, truly my napro doctor has saved this pregnancy. Like without a doubt. His like careful. He is so proactive which I feel like Napro doctors are much more pro. They have a completely different standard of care than your typical OB or midwife just because they have such especially depending on which one you go for. I'm working with a napro doctor who is an MD who has one of the highest certifications in naprotechnology so in women's reproductive health and recurrent miscarriages and hormonal health and all that stuff. And he is so much more proactive with stuff than even you know, my amazing midwife who I love. He had me on like a completely different dose of progesterone, was having me monitor it much more closely like things like that. But within that, at least for me. Jay, I don't know your experience with your Napro but my Napro is incredibly affordable and we, Landon and I are on Christian healthcare ministry so we're on like a health sharing, you know. Okay, cool. So for us unfortunately because my doctor is telehealth which I didn't realize this till after I was working with him and at that point whatever, I didn't care. But my Christian healthcare wouldn't cover working with him because they don't cover telehealth unless it's like one of their telehealth providers.

[Lindsay Roman]

But what's telehealth like? What does that mean?

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Like virtual, like virtual like over zoom.

[Evie McLeod]

Or anything like that. So but even with that being said, I think my initial and everyone's gonna be different. I'm sure every doctor charges differently and whatnot. But my self pay with my doctor, I think my initial appointment with him was like like 2, 200, 250 and any follow up vis like in part like call we have, we do a lot of communication via like my client portal but and that's free obviously working with him. But like any follow up appointment which I've only had one in this like entire pregnancy. My initial consult with him at the beginning and my followup, my follow up was 125. So in total I have spent like 375 out of pocket pocket to this Napro doctor and I'm like if that if I paid $400 to like get my, get my answers and save this baby, that was worth every single Penny. So I wanted to kind of like, even for the person who's like, oh.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

This feels so fertility stuff, and you HEAR about like, IBS 25, $50,000, like, it's not like that, you know, to do this kind of testing. I mean, I'm sure you can go down that route, but like, yeah, and.

[Evie McLeod]

Obviously my, my blood, like, all of my tests and like, I've had multiple ultrasounds because I did have a hematoma and like, different things like that. So I have definitely spent more money than just that. But my insurance is covering a majority of that.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Typically, the actual testing, or at least especially testing within pregnancy.

[Evie McLeod]

Yes.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

You know, it's a. A lot of times insurance covers that a little bit differently. It depends on the insurance. It depends on the, you know, the. What you have. But like, hormone testing and like blood tests and things like that in pregnancy, a good portion of those typically will be covered to some extent because it's pregnancy care, where a lot of times insurance is a lot less likely to cover things is when it's like fertility up front. And that's why, you know, it's a personal decision on how proactive you want to be. Because that may be a factor for you. I know for me, looking back, like, again, everyone's in a different situation, but once you have so many years of trauma and so many recurrent things that you kind of wonder, like, could this have been prevented? I know the Lord has a plan in it, but, like, also, you know, I would have spent, you know, what I needed to spend out of pocket had I known what I could do, you know, And I think a lot of people feel that way, even if it's a little bit of a stretch financially, because of course we're gonna put our. Our finances. Yeah, like, that comes way after our children in our lives and our trauma. From a priority standpoint, obviously, we don't want to, like, drive ourselves into financial ruin, but, like, right. You know, sure, a hundred dollar blood test or whatever can seem expensive up front, but like, when you then go down the path of not doing any of that and you kind of look back like, I wish I would have spent 100 and whatever bucks to do the progesterone. Like, yeah, it seems marginal, you know, as much as it's not easy at the time, so. So. And I know it's easy to wonder, like, is it necessary? Is it not? And that's a personal decision, you know, that you have to make together with your. With your family. But that's just where I'm Like I just wish women knew it was an option and how to access those things because you can and you just have to be your own advocate. Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

And I feel like within that too, like you said, you have to be your own advocate. I'm just going to say this straight up and Jay and I completely agree with this. Our standard of care in women, women's pregnancy and hormonal care and all of that is absolute bs. It is, it is at the basement level of horrible and just not. It is nowhere near where it needs to be whatsoever. And it's infuriating as a woman who is going through, you know, pregnancy or even hormonal imbalances and you feel like you are just lost and you don't know what to do and you're obese is like go on birth control, like what the frick, like that sort of stuff. That's just so infuriating. I, I have been, at least personally I've been so, so impressed with Napro technology and my Napro doctor because they, their angle and their support in their training is in, let's resolve the underlying cause, especially if it's something as simple as you know, hey, you have a blood clotting, you know, know, let's work on that. Let's get you on blood thinner or low dose aspirin or whatever, something like that's or progesterone. For me it was simply progesterone and getting the answer to that. Which by the way, I literally, my first consult I had with my Napro doctor, I was already pregnant. But I like he asked, was asking me questions. I obviously submitted all of my health history but he was asking me a few follow up questions and he was asking me very specific things about like my cycle, what is it like when I menstruate, like very detailed questions and I was giving him some answers and I was like to me I'm, I was like, no, like everything. I don't have extreme cramping. I don't, you know, whatever. I was like, I have like a pretty normal healthy cycle. He literally, after like 10 minutes of like discussing and questions, he's like, I can tell you right now your progesterone is low. I would have figured that out. Like, I mean he wasn't like saying this boldly but he's like, I love.

[Lindsay Roman]

I love like confident doctors.

[Evie McLeod]

He's literally like so confident and just so. Yeah, like he, but he literally was like I, I could have told you right now. And this was obviously after I went to him, after, after my Two losses. He was like, I. If we had had this conversation before you even tried getting pregnant with your first one, I would have told you. I can, like, I'm pretty positive that you're, you have low progesterone. Let's do X, Y and Z. He's like, you shouldn't have had to go through one loss, let alone two, because this was very obvious from. To me. And I was like, that's wonderful. Because no one else has said that, has figured that out, knows that has the training on it. They're just like, you're healthy, your cycle sounds normal, like, and just moves on. So there's a part of me that's like, friends, listening, people, like listeners, people who are like, hey, I would like to maybe run just like some initial tests, some initial labs, those three, you know, areas. I would almost say, especially if you've had a loss. I would, I, I'm, I've been so impressed with naprotechnology and napro doctors. I would almost say maybe try to connect with one.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Yeah, yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

Because I'm like, they're your standard OB or midwife is in my experience, you're.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Going to feel like you're running into a wall. Yes. And here's my theory. OBs and midwives are incredible. And some midwives are very knowledgeable about this, I will say, but something we have to remember because we can. And this is what's hard. It's like we want to get, we do get frustrated, the obese, because of, you know, the kind of like, band aid approach that can happen within the system. I don't believe all obs are that way, but a good portion of them kind of are just doing what they can because they see so many patients. It's like their hands are kind of tied. It's not that they don't care, but regardless, something I kind of had to come to the realization of and I found this very quickly. And I know, you know, we've talked about this, but typically, OBEs and midwives, their specialty and their training is not in loss prevention. It's not in fertility care. It's not in really like, even like supporting the healthiest pregnancy possible. They know how to manage a pregnancy and they know how to do surgery. Like, obs are primarily surgeons. Like, they do hysterectomies and C sections and all these things. They can deliver babies. They do deliver babies. That's part of their training. But when you think about the front end of it, that's true of midwives as well. Right. They're Obviously not surgeons, but their training really isn't in, oh, like, early pregnancy and loss and prevention. Like, I even. I have a loved one who just went through a really traumatic loss at like 38 weeks and they did, like, the most. I mean, I was so looking forward to, like, not looking forward, but I was like, we were talking about the testing they were going to do for her, right? Like, okay, maybe we'll get some answers from this. And it was so embarrassingly basic. And then even just like, the lack of guidance that came from that, from the OB knowing what to even do with some of those results, I was like, oh, my gosh, do you not realize there's this whole other world of, like, there's so much that these.

[Evie McLeod]

They don't know, but you can't blame.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Them because that's not their specialty. That's not what their training is in. And so the sooner you realize my OB isn't really, or my midwife isn't really the person who's going to help me get answers, most likely, maybe it doesn't make sense to go to them because I'll probably run into brick walls or maybe they'll be willing to do the testing for me, but they may not really know what to do with it. Right. And then I just feel discouraged and like, well, okay, so I think the more you realize that early ye. The more you can find the right providers, you know, and the, and the right proactive, you know, types of people that you want to work with and get, you know, clarity from. The sooner you can do that. So.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

And then one other thing I'll say too, not to. To cut you off, but one other thing I'll say is like, there's like, okay, so there's like. I almost think of it in, like, tears. Okay. When it comes to, like, getting answers, there's kind of the baseline, like working with your ob, midwife, maybe some initial testing, whatever. Then there's like, napro, which I would say is absolutely a level above that. And that for a lot of women, provide a lot of answers. And for me, it did provide a lot of answers. I still work with my Napro for thyroid support and those types of things. A lot more of a natural, at least root cause approach that they'll take. But then there's like an even higher level of answers and care and testing that can be done for women who are going through things like recurrent loss or unexplained IVF failures and where their doctors are like, we don't know. And so that's called reproductive immunology. I don't know if you want to talk about that at all, but that's kind of where I found myself. Like, Navro had a role and reproductive immunology had a role.

[Evie McLeod]

I would love if you dive in, into that.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

So I don't necessarily think doing a whole lot of immune testing and all of that makes a lot of sense early on because it is a lot more expensive. It's mostly blood work, but they'll also do things like an endometrial biopsy and a hysteroscopy. And there's a lot more like that goes into it. But for the woman who has had more than, you know, two losses or more, and it's relatively unexplained, you know, maybe you have treated the second one with progesterone or the third. Like, for me, we were supporting my progesterone. I was on blood thinner, we were supporting my thyroid. Like, we were doing the plan that kind of the, the napro testing would have told me I needed. And I still had a loss of chromosom, normal baby. And so that's when I was like, okay, there's gotta be like a level beyond this because there's still something in my body that's saying no to pregnancy. So that's where that book that I mentioned is. Your body Baby friendly really helped me get a lot of clarity on like, okay, I think this is a factor here. One thing that isn't talked about a lot. Most standard doctors don't know a thing about it, or they just, they don't understand it. It's a semi newer field. It's been around since about the 90s. So it's been proven. I mean, it's helped thousands of women. But medicine is slow to evolve. Right? Like, it's just not adopted across the board. And it's somewhat of a small, kind of specialized field still. But for women who've had 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 miscarriages with no answers, or 3, 4, 5 IVF failures or chemical pregnancy after chemical pregnancy, which is a super early miscarriage where baby's not even necessarily implanting, there's oftentimes in most of those cases, especially when the doctors are like, we're stumped. We're supporting your progesterone or your progesterone's fine. And we can't find anything. We don't know why this is happening. That's usually where reproductive immunology will step in. Because the immune system has such a role in pregnancy. And what should happen typically, you know, you hear about how pregnant women can get sick easier. And you know what? Not why, because the natural response. It's actually this book that I read, is your body baby friendly? It kind of points out, like, it's kind of a wonder that anyone is able to carry a pregnancy, because you think about what a baby in a placenta is made up of your DNA and another human being's DNA, right? And a whole new organ is forming in your body. That's what a placenta is. And when the immune system is, like, functioning how it should in pregnancy, it would shut off the mechanism that it otherwise would have had if you got an organ transplant of any other kind, right? Like, the body is going to say, hey, this is foreign DNA. We need to attack it. So that's what the immune system's job is. There's this miraculous thing that happens in pregnancies and that should happen in pregnancy, where instead of the immune system reacting to foreign DNA like it would in any other scenario, it goes, oh, shut off that attack mechanism, because this is a baby, this is a pregnancy, this is okay. But for some people, that mechanism just doesn't shut off. It doesn't. For whatever reason, that flip doesn't switch. And so the immune system sees foreign DNA from a partner. Half of someone else's DNA is building an organ in your body to build a placenta to support a baby, and it attacks it. And that's actually, like, when you think about it, you're like, well, that's technically what the immune system should do, just not in pregnancy. So when you think about how the immune system actually works, it makes a lot of sense why, if that switch isn't flipping, why that would lead to recurrent loss. That's like the most basic, like, explanation of it. But once you understand that the placenta is essentially kind of a new organ forming in your body, and it's formed with not only your DNA, but someone else's, it's like, oh, yeah, it makes sense that the immune system could have a role in this whole thing, right? So that's the field of reproductive immunology. And they really look extensively at how the immune system is functioning both prior to pregnancy and in pregnancy. They monitor that. And in my case, essentially, I was having an overreactive. My immune system was just overreacting to pregnancy. And so. And that can happen with a lot of people. I don't have, like, a diagnosed autoimmune disorder or anything like that, which sometimes that can be the case like someone who has an autoimmune disorder might be at a higher risk of that. But sometimes it's just how, like there's just something not flipping. Like there's just the switch is not flipping. And so that was a huge answer for me once we kind of knew that and learned that through the immunology testing. It was an answer of like, okay, we've got to kind of like calm the immune system down during pregnancy as much as, unfortunately, that requires some medication. I didn't love it. It's pretty low dose, and it just kind of like keeps it from attacking the pregn, especially in the first trimester. And so at that point I was like, well, this just makes sense, right? And so I tried it and that was how I ended up having my son. So that is, you know, kind of like a Tier 3 of testing. If you've kind of walked some of this road and you feel like you're just running into brick wall after brick wall. I really recommend the book. And honestly, you could read this at the beginning too, because it is something to be aware of. I just don't necessarily think that exploring that level of testing is necessary early on. But if you've had more than one loss or even one, and you just want to rule out as much as you can. I really wish in that period between. And I know it's how it all worked out, how it's supposed to, but between my second and third pregnancy, when I had a year and a half of just like, why am I not getting pregnant? What is going on? I wish I would have known about immunology because I don't know, it could have been a different outcome for that next pregnancy, you know. So all of that said, I just think, unfortunately, because it's a pretty specialized thing and a smaller field that most doctors, I mean, I was thankful that my fertility. I saw a fertility doctor because I just wanted to know why I wasn't getting pregnant. But at that time, he was like, after I had that third miscarriage, he was like, you might want to look into immunology. Like, he suggested it, which was actually really interesting. So some doctors are aware that they acknowledge it, but a lot just don't because it's slow to evolve. So you might kind of get dismissed or told that's not a real thing or whatever by a typical OB or whatever. But Napro, my napro provider is very supportive of it. My fertility provider doctor was pretty supportive of it and even recommended who I see now. So it's just something to explore I don't think it's where you start, but if you're kind of, like, frustrated and you're not getting a lot of answers, that is usually, like, this book. Dr. Alan Beer, the guy who wrote it, he said he gets a lot of the top IVF doctor and top recurrent loss doctor. Like, he gets a lot of their failures because they're not really looking into this. And so you do need to work with somebody who understands how to not only understand the testing and treat it, but when you do, usually there's a lot of clarity there that can come from that. For a lot of people.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah. That's so good. Thank you, Jay. Just for, like, breaking down, I think what is. Obviously, we talked about it, but, like, it's not talked about. No ob. And even midwives, like, don't, like, they fumble the ball, not in what they're doing, but, like. Like you said, it's like, they're not specialized in that. And so it's like, where do you go for these answers? And so thank you just for even. And even Evie. Just, like, the. The research that you guys have done to, like, share that with other women, I think can be so helpful to just give people guidance on, like, what do I even do? Like, what are my next.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

And it sounds like a lot like, I know when you're sitting there, you know, depending on where you're at. Like, I know that after my third loss, I would have been, like, gobbling up this episode and been like, cool, I'm going to go do all this. But when you've maybe had one or you're just trying, or you're. You know, it could be like, oh, my gosh, there's so many things that can go wrong within the human body. It's like, well, yeah, we live in a fallen world. Unfortunately, that's the case. Even when you tried it, like, that was so confusing to me because I was like, I'm really confused. Like, I'm really healthy. Like, I exercise like this, you know? And unfortunately, like, just how you look or how you feel like, doesn't totally give you. Like, a lot of people who are perfectly healthy individuals have recurrent pregnancy losses or whatever. But my point is, I know it can be overwhelming to hear depending on where you're sitting, sometimes it's just what you need. But I guess that's why I try to break it down. And, like, phase one is just, like, find out what your hormones are, maybe get a thyroid panel done, and if you want, look into some of the blood clot like the higher risk blood clotting things, because most doctors are gonna recognize that, and if you find it proactively, they're probably gonna be more likely to help you treat it.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Really simple. Right? Right. Phase two is like, okay, if you've had a loss or two, or you just want to be extra proactive and work with a really supportive provider who will try to prevent any kind of miscarriage, if that's a fear of yours or whatever, Napro is where you would probably want to end up. Right. And that can be a really great place to even start. But if not, that's kind of your phase two. And then if beyond that of like the standard recurrent loss panels, if you've had two losses and if you've run some of those things and you're not getting a ton of answers or, you know, you kind of run, you kind of like. I felt like with me, like I got to a point with Napro where it was helpful, but it wasn't completely solving the issue.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

And then that's where you go in and pursue that, like, higher level phase three test testing. So just breaking it down that way and just figure out like, well, where do I land on this? Do I want to be proactive?

[Lindsay Roman]

Cool.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

I'm going to do some of this phase one testing and maybe ask my OB or maybe see a napa provider to do some of that. So I get like the right guidance. Right. Okay. Am I in phase two if I've had a loss or two? Maybe I want to really work with a highly trained NAPA provider and do kind of the full gamut of recurrent loss testing and figure out my best treatment plan forward. And maybe you've even surpassed that, like I did. And you're like, hey, this got me some answers. We haven't fully resolved. Now I'm going to move on to looking at phase three. That is a really helpful way to think about it because otherwise it just feels like there's endless stuff you can look into. Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, 100%. I love it. I feel like it's, it's so helpful to break it down in that way. And I just, like you said, I don't, I don't. I hope this episode for anyone maybe who's listening to this, who is in the season of, like, hey, I would love to start trying or whatever. I hope we are not putting any fear in you by, you know, our stories and our journeys. But I also, on the flip side, I'm also like, I wish, I wish I had heard conversations like this before I walked that road. Because it is so common, unfortunately, in our world today and in pregnancies today, it is. It is not uncommon to have at least, you know, one miscarriage at whatever. Whatever point. And I wish I had heard some of this stuff and run some of that testing initially, because I did have. For whatever reason, I always had a fear of miscarriage.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

I think every woman does. I think most of us know someone who's had at least one. Most of us follow someone on social media. Like, it's every. We're seeing it. I mean, I don't. It's happening more, in my opinion, but I think it's also being talked about more. So we're all keenly aware of it. And of course, that's like, losing a child at any stage is all of our biggest fears. For those of us who hope to have children or who have children or who are trying to have children. And so, you know, I think it's. It's okay to acknowledge that that is a fear. It doesn't mean you need to live in fear. Yes, but there's a lot of power and, like, knowledge is power. And, yeah, you know, the goal of this is to. To increase awareness of, like, you do have options. You don't just have to live here being told, like, well, if it happens, it happens. Like, you know, and that's, again, nothing. Not everything is preventable. Right. Like, we can do all the testing and all the right things, and things can still go wrong. But there is something beautiful also about knowing, like, but it's helpful to know, like, what I could even ask a doctor for or what types of doctors to consider working with or what my options would be should this happen to me. Like, because one of the worst feelings is not only the loss and the grief and the trauma that comes with that, but then the spiral of, like, is this just gonna keep happening? Am I stuck here forever? Is this forever my destiny? And, you know, of course, no child or healthy pregnancy is guaranteed in any situation. That's the. That's the reality of just living in our world. Like, there's always going to be uncertainty. I mean, I find myself at halfway through a pregnancy and still wondering, like, will this turn out okay? You know, it doesn't fully go away. But the more I think when you have a supportive team, when you work with a doctor that you truly trust, that isn't just dismissing your concerns or fears, but will actually help you look into things. Who will help you, you know, interpret labs and find the right treatments. You feel so much more supported than just feeling like, okay, I hope they're right. You know, like, you want a doctor who's confident. You want a care team around you, you know, understands your concerns and is willing to look into them versus writing them off. You want to know, what can I do if something, you know, doesn't go the way I'd like? And hopefully that's not even the case. I hope you never have to do any of this. I hope this podcast episode is entirely irrelevant to literally everyone listening. But unfortunately, we live in a world where that's not the case. So if and when that ever becomes a concern, it's better to be armed with knowledge and know, okay, this is my first step is because I know for me, like, and I don't know if you feel this way. I've. But, like, when you are kind of, like, in the emotional and physical turmoil of loss and fertility stuff and all of that, I felt like, for me, being able to, like, pursue clarity and, like, put that energy towards something that felt semi productive was more helpful than just sitting there spiraling.

[Evie McLeod]

Yep.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Was just more helpful than sitting there spiraling and wondering, what if, what if, what if? And so sometimes it helps to put your energy toward, like, seeking out answers and seeking out the right character, a team, and like, advocating for yourself as much as it can be exhausting. I don't know, I just know that can be a helpful way to use some of that energy that otherwise is just feeling like you're, like, kind of spiraling and floating, like, not knowing what.

[Evie McLeod]

To do a hundred percent. And it's very easy to feel, like, powerless and out of control in that moment in that season of just, like, I'm not. I'm, you know, my, like, both for both of my losses, my OB that I was working with on the first one and the midwife I was working with on my second one, both of them in the, like, when I was, like, confirmed, you know, miscarriage, loss, whatever, literally, both of them were like, all right, well, I mean, honestly, everything, like, you're young and healthy. Like, both of them were like, just go ahead. Maybe wait until your cycle comes back, and then you feel free to, like, try again. And I was like, especially after the second one, I was like, I'm.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

I'm sorry.

[Evie McLeod]

Come again? What?

[Lindsay Roman]

Like, that's all you have to say to me?

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

And it was so infuriated, and I felt so powerless. And, Jay, you walked with me very closely through, you know, this whole journey, and, you know, like, I was fighting, like, uphill Battle upstream, trying to get my providers to, you know, when you.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

First got your progesterone test at the beginning, and you were like, it's this. I'm like, that's far too low. Aren't they gonna. And the provider was like, we can watch it. I'm like, no, we can't watch it. Like, we need to do something. And I'm so glad that, you know, your natural got involved at that point. Yeah, but that's typically what women are told. Like, you know, we'll just check it again. It's like, what if the next time you check it in a week, it's too late? Like, really, you know, 100%.

[Evie McLeod]

Well, it's just the norm is. It's like, I genuinely. And I. I do love my, like, my midwife and my provider, and she's actually been incredibly supportive of this process, but like you said, it's not her specialty. Like, miscarriage prevention is just not her specialty. So she was able to look at, you know, things like my progesterone or, like, my second loss and be like, all right, well, just, you know, go ahead and try again, basically.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Yeah. I mean, no, that's. I mean, that's typically. That's oftentimes the experience. And that's why I think so many women are not. Not intentionally misled. You know, no one intentionally trying to cause them pain. But it's like you feel like you're misled because then years later, months later, after you learn, like, oh, there's actually something I could have done about this, or actually that wasn't a good, you know, result in my blood test. Like, you just feel like you waste time, you know, and a lot of us don't feel like we have a lot of time to waste, you know, and it's like every month that goes by, every year that goes by feels so long, and, you know, I don't. I just think it's. Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

So it's easy to feel out of control. But I think the encouragement that I received in my journey and in, like, you know, chatting as friends so closely with UJ and getting your thoughts and advice and getting answers through, like, the Napro technology and the Napro doctor who was advocating and extremely proactive, um, it just. It gave me the realization that, like, which I felt this definitely on my first and second pregnancies, I kind of felt out of control, and I wasn't sure what to do. I wasn't sure how hard to push my providers on things, and. And I didn't even know what to Ask them to. To run tests on. For my second, you know, just different things that I'm, like, looking back, I wish I had had a little bit more awareness or information or, you know, run the fetal testing on the first one to know that, hey, I should probably get some tests before I try again. You know, different things like that that I just wish I'd known. And like you said, knowledge is like, you're armed with knowledge, hopefully after this episode, and you can kind of make your own decisions, but you're not powerless. I think that's the biggest thing, like, I want our listeners to hear is you are not powerless. You are not out of control in this process. If a provider is making you feel that you're being ridiculous, that by asking for certain testing is stupid or unnecessary, that you should have multiple losses before, like, walk away.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah, drop that person.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

I mean, you pay them. And if they're not willing to fight for your child's life with you, they're not your right, like, care provider 100%. Or they might be your right care provider for birth and for, you know, but this period of, like, preconception, conception, early pregnancy, loss prevention, you need a provider who will support you in that and who cares. As, you know, no one's going to care about your child's life more than you will, period. So if anyone questions you for fighting for that, they're not your person, you know, but they should at least support your fight for your child's life. Like, I truly believe I would. My son shepherd would. He was born, and even when Noah was born, too. But, like, when I gave birth to shepherd and ended up not in the most ideal birth, unfortunately, but, I mean, it happens. But he was born, and I remember, like, literally feeling like I was like. Like I literally got to the point I was like, this was like a five, four, whatever year fight. Like, I was like, I literally feel like I just, like, barely survived the fight of my life because I was, you know, but at the same time, like, it was worth ever. Like, I would do it all over again if I had to, you know, and. And it's so hard when you're so defeated and you're so exhausted feeling that way. But I remember, like, you do eventually take that deep breath and you're like, that was so worth advocating for myself. That was so worth firing the wrong doctors, finding the right ones. Like, all of the things you go through, you know, and it doesn't guarantee the outcome you want. Like, there was always that question in my mind, like, what if I do all of this and it doesn't lead to the desire of my heart. Like, that's not ultimately up to us. But that doesn't mean we can't have the right supporters and a good care team around us and feel loved and seen and heard and supported in that process. Because at the bare minimum, like, ultimately what we all want and need is a healthy baby, right? But, like, whether or not that we get that outcome, feeling love, supported, seen and heard, and like empowered through the process is so critical. Like, that is the bare minimum we should get. And if we aren't getting that, we need to find a better team, you know?

[Evie McLeod]

Amen.

[Lindsay Roman]

Oh, Mike drop. Jay, thank you so much for coming on the show and for just sharing what, like I said, what isn't talked about ever and just being vulnerable and sharing even just like the other side. Like, I. There's such victory and not, not that you can't have victory until you have a baby, right? But it's just, it's so really amazing to have just walked with you, both of us, on, on your journey and then like to see you now. It's just, hopefully it gives people hope that are listening to this episode. And so if anybody has listened to this and they want to find you, they want to come into your ecosystem, stalk you, raid all your books, listen to your podcast, where can everyone find you?

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Yeah, well, easiest place would be you can find me on Instagram, Jordan leedooly. That's kind of where everything's linked. I have a podcast all about, like, faith and motherhood and wellness for women where I share a lot of that journey. I interview a lot of interesting people that get to share, you know, even more on this kind of stuff. And not just fertility, also just like health in general. And then I have a couple books out and my third book, all about being good to your body, is coming out this fall. So lots of fun stuff coming, but easiest place to find all of that is just my Instagram.

[Evie McLeod]

Jordan Leigh, you are such a gift to everyone who knows you. So thank you for coming on today and sharing your journey.

[Jordan Lee Dooley]

Oh, well, thanks for having me. Love you guys. I always love getting to chat with you in real life and here in the the Internet world. So thanks for. Thanks for having me on.

[Evie McLeod]

Of course.