440: Building a Strong Marriage - Should It Make Us Holy or Happy with Gary Thomas

Summary

Episode Summary: Building a Strong Marriage - Should It Make Us Holy or Happy with Gary Thomas

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Heart & Hustle Podcast
• Hosts: Evie McLeod & Lindsey Roman
• Episode: 440: Building a Strong Marriage - Should It Make Us Holy or Happy with Gary Thomas
• Release Date: July 8, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 440 of The Heart & Hustle Podcast, hosts Evie McLeod and Lindsey Roman engage in a profound conversation with renowned author and speaker Gary Thomas. The episode delves into the intricate dynamics of marriage, exploring whether marriage is designed to make individuals holy or simply happy. Emphasizing the transformative power of marriage in fostering personal and spiritual growth, Gary Thomas shares invaluable insights drawn from his bestselling book, Sacred Marriage.

Guest Introduction

[00:30] Evie McLeod: "This episode was so powerful and is about to, I truly believe, impact and change your marriage or your future marriage if you are unmarried at this moment, forever."

Gary Thomas is introduced as a bestselling author and international speaker whose ministry integrates scripture, church history, and Christian classics to nurture spiritual growth and deeper relationships within the Christian community.

Core Discussion: Marriage as a Mirror for Personal Growth

Marriage for Holiness Over Happiness

[06:49] Lindsey Roman: "In your book Sacred Marriage, you pose a striking question which I think presents a really good question that we should consider in marriage, really hone in on, which is what if God designed marriage to make us holy more than happy?"

Gary Thomas unpacks this concept, explaining that marriage serves as a "giant mirror" reflecting our true selves. He discusses how married life exposes personal flaws and encourages continuous self-improvement:

[12:30] Gary Thomas: "I can allow my marriage to destroy my sin, or I can allow my sin to destroy my marriage."

Thomas emphasizes that addressing personal shortcomings within marriage leads to spiritual growth and a stronger relationship with both God and one’s spouse.

Contempt vs. Cherishing

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around the destructive nature of contempt in marriages and the importance of cherishing one another:

[02:09] Evie McLeod: "Contempt. Yeah, that's the word. It is one of the core tenants that can rip a marriage apart and completely destroy the love we talked about."

Gary elaborates on how contempt often arises from comparing one’s spouse to others, leading to dissatisfaction and resentment. He stresses the necessity of focusing on positive qualities to foster a loving and supportive marriage environment.

[24:34] Gary Thomas: "If you want to get away from contempt and move toward cherishing, you got to start calling your husband Adam. And guys that are listening, we got to call our wives Eve."

By viewing their spouse as unique and chosen, couples can eliminate comparisons and appreciate each other's distinct strengths and weaknesses.

Practical Tools and Reflective Questions

Gary Thomas provides actionable advice for couples aiming to prioritize holiness and cherishing in their marriages:

Self-Reflection Exercise

[18:34] Gary Thomas: "What's the most difficult thing about being married to me? ... Saying, hey, babe, what do you think is the most difficult thing about being married to me?"

This exercise encourages individuals to introspect and communicate openly about their perceived shortcomings, fostering mutual understanding and growth.

Philippians 4:8 as a Guiding Principle

[36:04] Gary Thomas: "I like Philippians 4:8. Starting out, whatever is true, there will be legitimate frustrations in marriage. But instead of jumping to contempt, instead of jumping to judgment, ask yourself..."

This scripture serves as a framework for couples to focus on positive thoughts and qualities about each other, replacing negative perceptions with appreciation and love.

Daily Gratitude Practice

Gary shares his personal practice of maintaining a journal to record daily appreciations for his wife:

[43:14] Gary Thomas: "I began every day... thanking her for something she did the day before specifically... it changed the way I prayed about her."

This habit helps in continuously recognizing and valuing each other’s contributions, strengthening the marital bond.

Overcoming Infatuation Decline

The conversation addresses the natural decline of infatuation over time and how choosing to cherish can sustain and deepen love beyond initial attraction:

[35:15] Gary Thomas: "Infatuation, neuroscientist stellis has a 12 to 18 months shelf life. It can't be sustained literally unless you're brain damaged... But cherishing is an attitude that you can choose."

By shifting focus from fleeting emotions to deliberate acts of love and appreciation, couples can maintain a fulfilling and enduring relationship.

Theological Underpinnings of Marriage

Gary Thomas intertwines theological concepts with marital advice, highlighting that marriage is not just a personal relationship but also a spiritual journey:

[54:05] Gary Thomas: "If I'm married to somebody who stumbles in many ways... it's trying to worship the God to whom I owe everything because I happen to be married to his daughter."

Viewing marriage as an act of worship and recognizing the divine purpose in the union reinforces commitment and mutual respect.

Addressing Challenges and Maintaining Respect

The discussion also covers practical strategies for handling marital challenges while maintaining respect and empathy:

[43:04] Gary Thomas: "Humility and empathy are spiritual values that I can't talk about enough. If you lose humility, then I think my marriage will be better when I fix my wife."

By adopting humility and striving to understand each other’s perspectives, couples can navigate conflicts more effectively and preserve their relationship’s integrity.

Cherishing Through Actions

Gary emphasizes the importance of actionable steps in cherishing one another:

[52:12] Evie McLeod: "...if I'm feeling this, he's probably feeling..."

Recognizing and acting upon each other’s needs and frustrations without judgment fosters a supportive and loving environment.

Conclusion: Marriage as Spiritual Transformation

In wrapping up the episode, Gary Thomas underscores the central role of spiritual health in fostering a strong and enduring marriage:

[61:14] Gary Thomas: "For me, that's getting right with God through Jesus. It's having the Holy Spirit that will convict you. It's having the Holy Spirit that will empower you to forgive, to love, to serve."

By grounding the marriage relationship in a shared spiritual foundation, couples can achieve both personal holiness and lasting happiness.

Further Resources

Gary Thomas recommends his foundational books for those interested in deepening their understanding of marital dynamics:

• Sacred Marriage
• Cherish: The One Word That Changes Everything for Your Marriage

Listeners are encouraged to visit Gary Thomas’s website or connecttogary.com for more resources and insights.

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Notable Quotes:

• Gary Thomas [06:56]: "Marriage is this giant mirror showing us what we're really like."
• Gary Thomas [12:30]: "I can allow my marriage to destroy my sin, or I can allow my sin to destroy my marriage."
• Gary Thomas [24:34]: "If you want to get away from contempt and move toward cherishing, you got to start calling your husband Adam."
• Gary Thomas [35:15]: "Infatuation ... has a 12 to 18 months shelf life."
• Gary Thomas [61:14]: "It's having the Holy Spirit that will convict you. It's having the Holy Spirit that will empower you to forgive, to love, to serve."

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This episode serves as a compelling resource for couples seeking to strengthen their marriage through spiritual growth, mutual respect, and intentional love. Gary Thomas’s insights offer a transformative perspective on viewing marriage as a pathway to personal holiness and enduring happiness.

Transcript

[Evie McLeod]

You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast. We are your hosts, Evie McLeod and Lindsay Roman. Man Today friend is a no skip episode.

[Lindsay Roman]

You are not allowed to skip this episode.

[Evie McLeod]

This is a mandatory listen for everyone. And all my rebels are going to be like, screw this.

[Lindsay Roman]

I'm clicking off every single human being on planet earth that listens to this show. This is one of the top episodes.

[Evie McLeod]

And then send it to your sister, your sister in law, your best friend, your mother, I don't care, send it.

[Lindsay Roman]

Your brother, your best friend, your uncle, your second cousin twice removed.

[Evie McLeod]

This episode was so powerful and is about to, I truly believe, impact and change your marriage or your future marriage if you are unmarried at this moment, forever. And it was an honor to speak with the guests that we had today. So we got to have the incredible Gary Thomas on. Now, if you are not familiar with him, Gary Thomas is a bestselling author and international speaker whose ministry brings people closer to Christ and closer to others. He unites the study of scripture, church history, and the Christian classics to foster spiritual growth and deeper relationships within the Christian community. Now, I want to clarify. This man is a legend, has written many books, many best selling books, many books.

[Lindsay Roman]

There's probably one, though that you probably.

[Evie McLeod]

Have heard of, heard of, even if you haven't read. And that is the book Sacred Marriage. And that's essentially the topic that we brought him on and talked about today.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah. So Gary, the reason this is mandatory is he. You're gonna need to grab a notebook, you're gonna need to repeat, listen to this episode. I'm going to need to repeat, listen to this episode. Gary came on and talked about marriage and how to cultivate a marriage that prioritizes holiness over happiness, which is essentially kind of what the book Sacred Marriage is about. He went into such depth, he gave so many practical examples of ways to honor your spouse, ways to support your spouse, love your spouse, cherish your spouse. He talked a lot about how contentment is one of the core seeds that can.

[Evie McLeod]

Contempt.

[Lindsay Roman]

What? Did I say?

[Evie McLeod]

Contentment. Oh, yeah, not that, not that.

[Lindsay Roman]

Sorry.

[Evie McLeod]

I'm glad you're like, no, absolutely not. Shutting that down.

[Lindsay Roman]

Contempt. Yeah, that's the word. Is one of the core tenants that can rip a parriage, a parriage, a marriage apart and completely destroy the love we talked about. Also how infatuation is off, like, often has like a decline, like a shelf there, that's the word he used. But a shelf life where in this day and age with, you know, rom coms and romance like that we're all obsessed with falling in love and that feeling of falling in love. But when that fades over time, how do you. What do you practically do? How do you learn to look at your spouse and cherish your spouse through their faults, through their good parts, like all of it. I cannot even express to you how vital this episode is. I don't care if you have a raving marriage and you think that you are the best married couple on planet Earth. You need to listen to this. You need to listen to this. Also if you have a crumbling marriage, if your marriage is in distress, or if you are anywhere in between those.

[Evie McLeod]

Two spectrums, or unmarried and you're like, I would love to gather some tools for my toolkit for marriage in the future.

[Lindsay Roman]

100%. I'm just gonna shut up so we can get to Gary's wisdom and brilliance. So, without further ado, the man, the myth, the legend, Gary Thomas. Hey, photographer. Are you on the struggle bus to find your editing style? Do you feel like you spent hours upon hours on one photo in Lightroom and still don't like the final product you send off to your clients? And as photographers ourselves, we can say.

[Gary Thomas]

We feel your pain.

[Lindsay Roman]

We have been there. It can be hard finding an editing style that you love, that feels honestly like you.

[Evie McLeod]

Yes. And here's the truth of the matter. Every single photographer goes through this. Everyone struggles at one point or other in finding and honing in on their perfect style. And that is perfectly normal. But today, we do not want you to stay stuck. Which is why we want to chat through our top eight pieces of advice to discover the editing style that makes you and your clients hearts stick. Sing. Visit theheartuniversity.com style to utilize our eight tips to nail your editing style. Hey.

[Gary Thomas]

Hey.

[Lindsay Roman]

I'm Lindsay Roman.

[Evie McLeod]

And I'm Evie McLeod. And we are family and legacy focused serial entrepreneurs and the founders of the Hart University, a business education company with a mission to help you thrive in your business and life.

[Lindsay Roman]

Welcome to our entrepreneur cocktail hour where business and marketing strategies meet faith, real talk and raw in life changing conversations.

[Evie McLeod]

At the end of the day, we are all in this together, figuring out how to navigate the ups and downs, the messy and the beautiful and everything in between. This is a community where you can come as you are, get inspired and walk away equipped to build a legacy filled life.

[Lindsay Roman]

You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast. Gary, welcome to the Heart and Hustle podcast. We are beyond excited to welcome you to the show. Thanks for being here.

[Gary Thomas]

Well, thank You. I'm excited to be here myself.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yes.

[Evie McLeod]

It's an honor for us to have you here, for sure.

[Lindsay Roman]

Absolute honor.

[Evie McLeod]

For sure. I love it. Well, Gary, are you willing, for anyone who may not know who they're about to sit down and have a conversation with today, are you willing to kind of share just a little bit about you and what you do and introduce yourself to our listeners?

[Gary Thomas]

Sure. I'm on the other end of life for most of your listeners. I've been married for 40 years, which is probably longer than most everybody listening has been married. I've been writing and teaching for all of my adult life. We have three kids and two grandkids and I've been working at churches or I was just on my own writing and speaking and primarily on marriage, but a lot. Also on just the spiritual life. How we draw near to God, how we experience God, how we serve God.

[Evie McLeod]

I love it.

[Lindsay Roman]

We are obsessed. We cannot wait to dive into this topic. We've talked about marriage a little bit on the show, but I, I love having, Well, I, I, first of all, I love speaking to people that are older and wiser than me. Yeah. Especially on topics that I'm always wanting to grow and learn more in. And I know our listeners are the same.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Lindsay Roman]

And so I think we're just diving in. In your book Sacred Marriage, you pose a striking question which I think presents a really good question that we should consider in marriage, really hone in on, which is what if God designed marriage to make us holy more than happy? Could you kind of elaborate on what that means for couples just in this practical day to day context?

[Gary Thomas]

I, I realize to some people that might seem like a very bizarre statement. So give me, give me a chance to unpack that a little bit.

[Evie McLeod]

Perfect.

[Gary Thomas]

I think marriage is this giant mirror showing us what we're really like. And I think most of us have an inflated view of ourself and if we've been married more than a couple years, a deflated view of our spouse. And part of that's neuroscience. It's just the way things go. So here was the experience for me. I was in middle school, going to high school. They had the normal hall of fame pictures. I know you guys from the Midwest. I don't know if they did it out there. I was in the Pacific Northwest and they had the normal categories most likely to succeed. And I certainly wasn't under that. Most popular, Not a chance Most athletic would be my dreams. But instead I was voted most polite. Every junior high boy's dream right I knew it was the geeky title, but I also knew it's sort of how others looked at me. And me, I'm the third of four kids. I'm not a type A personality. I'm not a hard charger. I don't want to be in charge of everybody. And so I went into marriage thinking, I'm such a happy go, lucky guy. I'm pretty easy. I'm not irritable. And then I was shocked when I got married. One of our first issues were ice cube trays. Because this is before we could have the refrigerator and freezers with ice cube makers, which were really nice back then. You had to be really rich to have those. And so I had a daily habit that my wife has since cured me up. But it was pretty set when we got married. I had to have my daily Pepsi, and I liked it really, really cold. And so Lisa grew up in a family. Well, I grew up in a family where if you got out an ice cube, you refilled the tray and put it back in the freezer so the next person will have a nice full tray of ice cubes. And I'm convinced that's the biblical way to handle yourself in the kitchen. My wife, unfortunately, grew up in a family. Run those things down to an ice chip. If there was something you could scrape off with a knife, there was technically ice in there. Now, if anybody like me has had the bad habit of a soda and you like it really cold, you know, whether It's Pepsi, Coke, Dr. Pepper, whatever your choice is, this soda wins over the ice cube. And before you even get it up to your mouth. And so I was so frustrated that couldn't explain to my new bride how much of my joy and happiness in life depending on having this nice full tray of ice cubes whenever I wanted it. So one night, Lisa speaking romantically to me, and I thought, here's my chance. I was such an idiot. She said, gary, I'm going to love you forever. I said, honey, I don't need you to love me forever. I need you to love me for seven seconds. And she looked at me like, what are you talking about? Said, I timed how long it takes to fill the ice cube trays. And here's the thing. I know I'm talking to two young women, but if you would have told me in high school or college, I would be risking a time of physical intimacy to argue over ice cubes. I was that. That is not me. That's never going to be an issue in my marriage. And yet I'VE found. Look, I've talked to I don't know how many couples. Now. Every couple has an ice cube trace story. It's not usually about ice cubes. It could be something else. But these little things where they wake up one day and say, seriously, this is what's causing an issue. And I think, that can't be me. And because I've dealt with some couples that haven't made it, you know, some, they're so frustrated with their marriage, they decide to get a divorce. And they'll say, you know, I did things I said, things I thought, things that married. That can't be me. There must have been something uniquely awful about my ex that brought out the worst in me. And then they get remarried and they're like, oh, that is me in marriage. And that's what I mean by marriage being this giant mirror. And when I say, instead of letting the exposure of who we really are in marriage make us run from our spouse, which is the natural temptation for me as a pastor, I say, hey, how about we make it encourage us to run toward Jesus? As a follower of Jesus, I have to accept I'm a sinner. James 3. 2 says, we all stumble in many ways. The word all means I'm included in that. And I don't have to deny it because Jesus says, once your sin is exposed, you can come to me for forgiveness. I also have a very forgiving wife, which helps. And then through the power of my Holy Spirit, I'll help you change. But if I don't think I need to change, I'll resent it when marriage exposes the sin in my life. And so I really think a lot of the issues in our marriages aren't necessarily between husband and wife. There's spiritual issues between us and God. We want to act like we've got everything together. We think that, you know, if our spouse would just get on board, everything would be fine. And when I realized that marriage could not only expose my sin in a way that I never saw it happen as a single, and then give me a platform to grow out of that sin, that's what led to that subtitle and completely changed the view of marriage. And here's where I've arrived. I can allow my. I can use my marriage to destroy my sin, or I can allow my sin to destroy my marriage.

[Lindsay Roman]

Wow.

[Gary Thomas]

If I don't address my sin, I'm going to push my wife away because the Bible says I have a lot of it. Or I could use marriage to expose my sin, go to My Savior and redeemer and say, could you please take it out? And there's one verse that I didn't put it in Sacred Marriage. If I were to rewrite Sacred Marriage, it would be a key. Because some people say, well, Gary, I don't think I'm that bad. Or at least I think I'm better than my spouse. I wouldn't say that, but a lot of them do. I go back to 2nd Corinthians 7:1, where Paul says, dear friends, let us purify. And this next word is so key. Ourselves. Yeah, our natural human bent. Jesus talked about this. We want to purify our spouse, our kids, all of the drivers on i10, i10 back.

[Lindsay Roman]

I mean, 95 is the big one.

[Gary Thomas]

95. There you go. And then Paul says, purify yourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, not just the worst things. Perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. And I believe you can't have a healthy marriage if there's not a spiritually healthy you.

[Evie McLeod]

Wow.

[Gary Thomas]

So if there's unchecked sin in my life and I'm denying it, or I'm just asking my spouse to carry it, that will eventually destroy my marriage. Ultimately, though, that's an issue between me and my God, not between me and my spouse.

[Evie McLeod]

That's so good. I can't remember if I heard this somewhere. I would laugh so hard if I heard it in your book, Gary. But I. In the beginning of my marriage, the analogy that was in my mind, and I don't know if I thought of this, if I heard it somewhere, but marriage, in a lot of ways, at least for me, and I think you would agree with this based on your book. It's like you're squeezing a lemon over, like, your hand, and it quickly, quickly identifies any cuts, any, you know, any wounds, any. Like, it immediately, like. And it stings and it's sharp. But I love what you're saying in this, in the sense that that is, in a lot of ways, God's design for marriage is to help sanctify us, to then identify these areas of potential, festering potential, you know, damage to us that we can work on going to. And this sounds terrible, like, terribly cliche. Going to the doctor, AKA God, and being like, hey, I have an open wound here and I need you to help me heal this in order to not be consistently, like, allowing it to fester or inconsistent pain in my marriage. Would you agree with that?

[Gary Thomas]

A hundred percent. I think that's a brilliant analogy. You didn't get it from me. I wish you did. I love that. Because all of us, I think, have gotten citrus on our hands.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, right.

[Gary Thomas]

That's what exposes it. And here's the whole model I'm trying to get at with sacred marriage, that we view marriage not exclusively, but as a significant aspect of it, as this spiritual gymnasium where we can become stronger in the Lord, stronger in our character. What I found, if we don't have this attitude, we're like those people who drive to a health club, which I'll do later this afternoon, and then drive circles around the parking lot looking for a close place to park before we go into exercise. I just laugh at myself doing this. But then you go into the gym and there are hundreds of people and they're paying, I know, a lot of money to be on machines that will make them sweat, they'll make them smelly, that will make them sore, that will make them tired. And somebody might say, why are you doing this? And they would say, because by doing this uncomfortable thing, I think I could become stronger and faster and healthier and maybe live longer. And people say, why do you stay in even a difficult marriage? Well, it gives me an opportunity to learn how to forgive. It helps me grow in service and in humility. It helps me, for some of us maybe, to be courageous. We realize if we don't speak up, we may be buried in our marriage. That we see this is not the only purpose of marriage, but a very valuable purpose. And the reason I stress that is if we have that attitude, then the things that used to bug us about marriage, that our sin is exposed, that we're being held accountable, that our spouse might call us out, is something now that I can appreciate. Yeah, let me show you. I don't enjoy it. I wish I was perfect. I wish my wife loved everything about me. But the reality is, if. If I believe what the Bible says about me is true, God's going to be working on me for the rest of my life. And I just need to cooperate with that. And so my wife isn't just my, you know, best friend, as she is in our case, and my lover and my partner and my co parent. She is my sister in Christ. And for me, that adds a wonderful element to our marriage. That. That, frankly, that aspect of our marriage is eternal.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, that's true.

[Lindsay Roman]

That is so good. Gary. If. If anybody is listening to this and they're like, yep, I'm tracking everything that you're saying, I'm on the same page, all of that. I want to grow in Holiness with my spouse. This is maybe just me being a practical poly here, but, like, do you have any reflective questions or tools or. Or an exercise or something? Like, almost like a check in that couples can regularly do to kind of keep that pulse on track to make sure they're growing together in that way?

[Gary Thomas]

If. If a wife really wants to use this to change her outlook on marriage, I'm going to ask her to ask herself a very difficult question. And this is going to be painful. All right, your listeners are going to wince right now. But if it's true that we all stumble in many ways, if it's true that we can't change our spouse, we can, with God's help, change ourselves. Here's a question I want you to ask to improve your marriage. What's the most difficult thing about being married to me? And just let that sit. Think on it. If I was married to me, what would I think is the most difficult thing about being married to me? You're not denying that there are many difficult things about being married to your spouse. You're just turning the tables.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Gary Thomas]

All right. What's the most difficult thing about being married? And write it down, pray about it, think about it, and then if you're really bold, go to your spouse sometime. Say, hey, babe, what do you think is the most difficult thing about being married to me? Now, depending on the dynamics of marriage, your spouse might not want to go, and you might have to encourage them and draw it out. Hey, I'm not going to yell at you. I heard this crazy guy on this podcast, and I'm just trying to apply this or whatnot, but it's just trying to become aware that, okay, how do I want your listeners to get the freedom that it's okay to be less than perfect? We know that intellectually, but I think I'm a better husband when I say there's some things that probably really suck about being married to me. I want to make it a blessing for my wife to be married to me, and she talks so well of me or whatnot. But to recognize I'm not perfect, I'm not all that I can always grow. When Paul says, purify yourself from everything that contaminates body and spirit, that phrase, perfecting holiness is in the present tense. That means it's a process. We never become perfect, but we're perfecting ourselves. And so it gives me freedom to say, yeah, I miss that. Sometimes I don't listen to my wife as closely as I should, and I'll ask her something that she's just answered or whatnot. And so it's this way of setting ourselves free and our spouse free, saying, hey, we're committed for life, right? We're together, you and me, we're in this. And so I can be honest and I can recognize I'm not going to be perfect. But I just want you to know I'm working on it and I'm there. And I think that question could really help if you want a list. If readers want a list. Readers, sorry, Authors, speak listeners or viewers want to list. I love the book of Colossians. It's a letter in the New Testament. In chapter three, there's a verse where Paul tells us what to take off. And of course he mentions things like sexual immorality. One things that would clearly destroy a marriage. But these other things that we ignore. He says, anger, rage, malice. That's ill will. Slander. That would include in your own mind and you talking with your girlfriends about your husband. Filthy language. Every word should be encouraging. And lying because take that off. And I like that phrase that I just have to say, okay, all of us kind of have that just in a fallen world. So I'm taking that off. And then he tells us what to put on. And I love this list. Compassion, kindness, gentleness, patience and love. And just think, if you go look at that list, you say, okay, I'm going to completely get rid in my attitude toward my spouse. Anger, rage, malice, slander, filthy language and lying. If I see it, I'm taking it off. I want to have nothing to do with it. And here's what I strive. Because sin isn't just what you do. It's often the positive nature. And I love these qualities. Imagine what a marriage is like if you're married to somebody who's compassionate instead of judging you. Hey, man, you've had a hard day. I'm sorry. Kind. I think one of the questions you talked about, infatuation will die. That's neuro. Scientifically true kindness never gets old. It renews our affection. Compassionate, kind, gentle. If we all stumble. In many ways, it sure is nice to be married to somebody who's gentle. When we stumble and say heart patient. Isn't it great to have somebody that says, yeah, I know you're working on this. And love. Love is. I'm all in. I'm on your team. Do you. My wife loved the show. I couldn't watch it with her because it got every episode was. I think it was called this is Us. Oh, yes.

[Evie McLeod]

I haven't seen it But I've heard of it.

[Gary Thomas]

Well, it was just too close to me as a past because all of these problems, and it got. But my wife loved it. There's one scene I saw before I quit watching it where the mom was kind of talking her daughter down. She's an adult daughter, and the daughter's husband is there, and I don't remember the woman's name, but I just loved what he said. He goes, hey, you just need to know, I'm Team Joanne.

[Evie McLeod]

No.

[Gary Thomas]

Her and I. No, no. We're. We're a team. We're going to deal with this together. That's kind of. Love is like, I'm on your side.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Gary Thomas]

We might be working on things to change, but love is. I always want what's best for you now.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Gary Thomas]

If you're married to an addict, that may mean you do things that the addict doesn't appreciate.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Gary Thomas]

But you're doing it for them, not against them. So I think that's why I love the Bible. I don't mean to preach to your.

[Evie McLeod]

Listeners, but I just want to see.

[Gary Thomas]

How beautiful truth is there. And I think if people just listen. Wow. What about a marriage? We take off anger, rage, malice, slander, filthy language, lying. We put in compassion, kindness, gentleness, patience, and love. I'm telling you, if you don't read a marriage book, but you do that, your marriage is going to be dramatically different.

[Evie McLeod]

That's so good, Gary.

[Lindsay Roman]

I'm just soaking over here.

[Evie McLeod]

You mentioned the whole concept of infatuation wearing off and kind of like a disillusionment that a lot of couples do experience. And I know that you kind of covered this in your book because obviously you have a whole question or subtitle of what if marriage were to make us, you know, designed to make us holy more than happy? I guess my question, because I do want to touch on the whole, you know, the infatuation can wear off and that sort of thing, but would you. Could you address really quickly, do you think marriage is not intended to make us happy? Can you, like, address the person who might be listening to this, who hasn't read your book, who's like, okay, so is this guy saying, I'm not supposed.

[Lindsay Roman]

To be, like, I'm supposed to be.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah. I'm not supposed to be happy?

[Lindsay Roman]

I'm not supposed to be a martyr.

[Gary Thomas]

Yeah. Because it's so fun to be married to a martyr. Right. It's such a happy life every day. Yeah. I'm just being a martyr. And thank you even for that question, because I Don't want to. There's an important qualifier to this. There was a great evangelist a couple hundred years ago named John Wesley who said, I've never seen anyone truly happy who's not pursuing holy. The subtitle is not holy instead of happy. It's priorities. Because I believe it's when I pursue holiness that I have a happier marriage. Yeah, when I pursue holiness, I'm dying to the things that would push a woman away. Yeah, woman doesn't want to leave. A guy who's compassionate, kind, gentle, patient and loving a woman is going to have a really hard time being married to a guy who's angry, filled with rage, who's got malice, who's slandering, who uses filthy language, who lies to her. And so I believe by pursuing this holy path, I'm creating a relationship where my wife would never want to leave me. And if my wife was here, I think that's what she would say. Forty years in, I think we are happier in our marriage than we've ever been. And that's statistically often true that once a couple hits year 35, they tend to be as satisfied in the relationship as they were as newlyweds. This after and they chart this marital satisfaction tends to drop for the first 20 years because you've got more challenges, you're raising kids, you have less time. My wife and I now are empty nesters. We've gone through so many life experiences together. We're extremely happy in our marriage. But even in this happiness there are difficult things. I mean I'm just bringing in our friends here too. Not for us where they have adult children that are breaking their hearts. I can't tell you how many medical emergencies my wife and I are praying. I have two friends, one who lost a daughter, another friend I went to college with who lost his son. This was a young, this is a 20 something daughter and an early 30s son. I mean heartbreaking things, a couple trying to get pregnant, going through it, their last chance with IVF or whatnot. And it's like all of these things going on that. So marriage will be difficult in the sense that life is difficult. My dad just died a few months ago, man, my, my wife was a saint toward him. She was the perfect daughter in law as he was facing his last dies. But those, those are sad times and painful times and whatnot. But what we found now is that our marriage lifts us up through those difficult times. I think earlier on in our marriage difficult times could drag our marriage down. But like I said, we're, we're four decades into this, we figured some things out to where I feel like our marriage is a fortress rather than vulnerable in those times.

[Evie McLeod]

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[Evie McLeod]

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[Evie McLeod]

I think that's such a good clarification because I knew where you stood on that, just from reading your book. But I feel like it could be very easy to accidentally put on the glasses of martyrdom and to think, you know, oh, I'm supposed to be miserable. I'm supposed to, you know, carry around an attitude of unhappiness or dissatisfaction because that's holy, quote, unquote. But I love your, the just the clarification of. Yeah, and I think there is so much truth in what you said of dying to self, like, when we are focused on our relationship with God as individuals as well as, you know, as a unit, a married couple. But when we are individually focused on our relationship with God, which naturally leads us to dying, to self, to humility, to recognize that, you know, we get our eyes off of our navel and we're, you know, looking up at the Lord and what that creates in the marriage becomes something so beautiful that it naturally you feel happier. It's like you're saying there's a result of I'm no longer looking at the worst of my spouse and the best of me. And, you know, all my lenses change. Everything changes, and the Lord is at the center of it all. But I love that you said that because I feel like there are so many people in the world who are like, ugh, marriage is so, so, so, so hard. And not that it's not. I would actually love to hear your thoughts on, like, marriage is hard because it, it is, but life is hard.

[Gary Thomas]

And, and that's why marriage will be hard.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Gary Thomas]

But I, I, I don't know if you're aware of this. About 15 years after Sacred Marriage came out, I wrote a book called Cherish, the one word that changes everything for your marriage, where I kind of bring out. And you just kind of preached it, that I felt convicted by God. The traditional marriage vows. I promised to love and to cherish until death do us part. And I always thought about love when I thought about marriage. And that's sort of what you talked about. Love, serving, sacrificing, being committed, hanging in there, putting the other person first. And I felt convicted by God that he wanted me to learn what it means to cherish my wife. And that took what I thought was already a pretty good marriage and just took it to a whole different level. And I think what it does is it creates a different experience for my wife if she feels like I'm in a marriage because grinding my teeth, I made a promise 40 years ago, or because I've learned to cherish her. And here's what I love. Infatuation, neuroscientist stellis has a 12 to 18 months shelf life. It can't be sustained literally unless you're brain damaged. Your infatuation is not even going to get you past your first child being potty trained. I mean, it's, it might get you into marriage. It won't keep you married because you can't choose it. We talk about falling in love as a passive thing, and that's kind of true. You can fall in love and then when you fall out of love, you can't really do much to get it back. But cherishing is an attitude that you can choose. There are actions, there are attitudes, there are things that we can do to foster it and it can grow. So we live in a culture that's based on celebrating infatuation, which starts out high and goes low. And I'm trying to change the notion in the church that once you realize the infatuation is dipping, that's when you can start building a cherishing marriage. Now love sustains it. Without love, you won't stay in there to learn how to cherish your spouse. But here's the challenge. Without cherishing, love can start to feel like a duty and a discipline instead of a delight.

[Lindsay Roman]

Oh, wow.

[Gary Thomas]

And who wants to be married to somebody that's just there out of duty and discipline? Yeah, you know, that's, that's no fun. And it's not any fun to be in a marriage where that's why you're there.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Gary Thomas]

And when I realized that you could choose the path of cherishing, it's been encouraging to see what it's done in marriages all across the country.

[Evie McLeod]

I have a question within that. I don't know if you have the same question. Do you have a practical takeaway for the listener who's like, I want to learn how to cherish my spouse. I want to. In my process of acknowledging my areas of sin, of laying off these things, putting on these things, I also would love to start implementing a tangible action into cherishing my spouse. Do you have something in that?

[Gary Thomas]

It's just hard on a podcast because I do a four hour seminar on it and I'm dropping material. But let me just say this. As, as a Christian, I believe that transformation begins. Romans 12. To be transformed by the renewing of your mind, the challenge of marriage. You know that phrase familiarity breeds contempt, right? What's more familiar than marriage? Nothing. And I've seen that happen where couples head over heels in love with each other, infatuated with each other. Five years later, they can't even stand to be in the same room. They're filled with contempt. And it's an irrational contempt. I talk about being in a marriage with a couple one time, and they were thrilled to be with each other. Fifteen years later, we were in a group setting, and I wanted to bring in the husband because he's very much an introvert, and he wasn't participating. I was just trying to be kind, and I thought here was an opening. And so I said to him, well, don't chefs think such and such? Before he could answer, his wife cut in and said, he's not a chef. He's a cook.

[Evie McLeod]

Oh.

[Gary Thomas]

And he goes, honey, he can call me a chef. No, he can't. Chefs prepare things. You just heat things up. Oh, wow. Now, here's what's awful. He was the head, I would say, chef at a nursing home. And so three meals a day. He provided meals for, you know, older senior citizens could be the highlight of their day, but they're always cutting the budget. So some meals did get heated up, but he tried to do his best for it to be nutritious and tasty. Now I just think, what a great job. James 1:27 says religion that God our father accepts is this look after the orphans and widows in their distress, that he is really ministering to a group of people that often just get shunted off and forgiven. And she might even pray God, just as your son fed the multitudes with loaves and fishes, just give my husband the ability to provide tasty meals on a limited budget.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, that.

[Gary Thomas]

I think it's an admirable job. And she was looking at him with contempt, wondering, and I thought, why? Well, contempt is irrational. And I think that's just one example. So what do I mean by being transformed by the renewing of your mind? I've got to think about my spouse. The opposite of contempt. Contempt. See, this is what happens when you do a guy who does a seminar in this. I'm taking over the show. I'm sorry.

[Lindsay Roman]

No, please take over.

[Gary Thomas]

Contempt is based on comparison. We compare the weaknesses of our spouse to the strengths of another spouse. Tell me there's a listener that hasn't done that. They see another husband treat his wife a certain way, and the first thing you say is not, well, but my husband, it's. Man, it'd be nice if my husband did that. I read this great classical writer who talked about, we understand God is the only perfect being. Every creature has a shadow side. So one example would be birds. Most beautiful bird in the world is A peacock. But have you ever heard a peacock's voice? It's like fingernails on a chalkboard. You know, crazy. And then you have a blackbird. It's monochromatic. One color, not that. But then it opens its mouth, and it's heavenly. And so the thing is, if you marry a peacock, you're into peacocks. You don't expect your peacock to be a blackbird. If you marry a blackbird, you expect the blackbird to be a peacock. And so I would say, women, if you married a guy who's got this strength but not that strength, you don't say, well, yeah, he's a great handyman. He's there for me and whatnot. But he's not as emotionally available as this one, or he never picks up a book. I mean, it is so easy to have contempt when you compare. And so here's the image that will hold all of this together. One of the reasons that Adam and Eve could have such a unique relationship is that for a brief period of time, Eve was literally the only woman in the world. There was no one Adam could compare to. He couldn't say, well, yeah, she's athletic, but that one's funnier. That one's a little more intense. For all Adam knew, this is what a woman is, and this is key. And this is what a woman is supposed to be. He didn't know a woman could be any other way. And so I'd say to the women listening, the same thing was true of Adam. For a while, he was literally the only man in the world. He defined for Eve what a husband is and what a husband's supposed to be. So if you want to get away from contempt and move toward cherishing, you got to start calling your husband Adam. And guys that are listening, we got to call our wives Eve. Comparison stops when we get married. Comparison is reasonable. Prior to the day we say I do. Once we say I do, we're making a commitment to contentment. This is who I chose. This is what I'm going to focus on. This is what I'm going to be happy with. They don't have to compete with anyone else because they can't compete with everybody else. And I got to say, it's so much more fun to be married to somebody you cherish than to be married to somebody you compare.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Gary Thomas]

I mean, I just asked the listeners, has negatively comparing your husband ever made you feel better about your marriage? I mean, mentally, he oh, I'm so glad of that 15 minutes. Because he's not like this guy. Or that guy. Or that guy. You don't feel better about your marriage. It doesn't motivate your husband. And so why do we do it? So cherishing begins with our mind. And then look, sorry, I just have a whole book about things we can do. But here I've gone probably 10 minutes just talking about the mindset.

[Lindsay Roman]

But this is perfect.

[Gary Thomas]

It has to begin with a new way of looking at our spouse.

[Evie McLeod]

Yes.

[Gary Thomas]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

Yes.

[Lindsay Roman]

If, if anybody's listening and they're listening to this other, like, yes, I, I want to choose cherishing over contentment, but I'm thinking of like the person that maybe their, their spouse is disappointing them or there's something that they, they want to cherish but they would love, I guess like change or something. Or I mean, maybe we could even go even more dramatic in this question with, in saying like, maybe they've made a mistake or something that hurt them deeply. How would you suggest, like practically cherishing them or choosing in a hard season whether it's circumstantial or whether like the spouse broke their trust in some way? Like, how would you recommend like the reconciliation and the, and the build back of cherishing as a, as a culture?

[Evie McLeod]

Holiness and the cherishing.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gary Thomas]

Here's, here's the nuance. And I know both of you, you're smart, you'll get this. It's different if I think I'm talking in an abusive marriage.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Gary Thomas]

In that case, I want the woman to be safe.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah.

[Gary Thomas]

I don't think a woman who's being torn apart verbally and physically should, should be in that place.

[Evie McLeod]

Right.

[Gary Thomas]

So I'm, I want to make that clear. We're talking about difficulties, not abuse. I think, yes. I think we need to make that distinction. And sometimes it's Christian women who put themselves in harmful situations and soul destroying situations and think they're supposed to stay there and that does it. So. But if we're talking about the normal things, like one spouse is strong in this and weak in that or whatnot. Neuroscience again has shown that the way we, the good in our spouse becomes status quo. So we stop seeing it.

[Evie McLeod]

Yep.

[Gary Thomas]

Let me put this, if you, you could have. I've seen women, they're in beautiful homes and they don't see it as a beautiful home. They see it as, oh man, we gotta paint that room. Or this floor means. Or these cabinets probably. And then somebody comes in that's never seen the house and they're like, oh my goodness, this is amazing. It's a showpiece. You Know, and, and, and that's what we do with our spouse. The good becomes status quo. Where our brain focuses is where we're disappointed, and that's what we mull on. And so what I did, and I took this actually from a wife, so it's not original to me is I wanted to showcase my wife to myself. If it's true that I take the good for granted and I realize this will sound obsessive, I'm not clinically ocd, but I live in the neighborhood right next door to it. So this is going to sound extreme to some, but I got a journal that had an empty page for every day of the year. And I began every day. This is going to be one of my wife's Christmas presents. Thanking her for something she did the day before specifically. Oh, man, it was cold. But you went out and did this, or I know you're tired and you did this, or you said this or, or then just a character trait. And, you know, I'm whipping through it. After about 60 days, I really had to start to think because you can't write the same thing. And so I was having to train my brain throughout the day to find something because I made a commitment. I'm not going to start work, I'm not going to start writing until I filled out something in that red book. And so I was training my brain to look for something throughout the day. Oh, I can write that down. Oh, I can thank her for this. And it's showcasing my wife to myself. And I just. What do you think that does to a husband's mind when for an entire year, his first thought every day is to be grateful for his spouse or to think about something wonderful about her. And it's. It changed the way I prayed about her. Because if I'm 250 days in and I say, God, this is frustrating to me, he can come back. Gary, go read your own book. You've got 349 things you've just praised. Yeah, there's one thing that's frustrating. Welcome to the real world. Welcome to real marriage.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Gary Thomas]

And so I would say first, Lindsay, is to. To make yourself fresh to the strengths of your spouse. Think about why you married them. Maybe every day is too much, but can you do it three times a week? Philippians 4:8 would be a great verse for people to look at because it says, whatever is true, whatever is excellent, whatever is praiseworthy. We often think the worst of our spouse. That isn't even true. I know a newlywed couple, they're Married like three months. They have a big walk in closet. She takes a blouse off a hanger, puts the hanger back up there, and her husband looks at her with, you could tell. Pent up frustration, saying, I know you're doing that just to bug me. What are you talking about? Putting that naked hanger up with the other clothes first. She had never heard the phrase naked hanger. She had no clue what he was talking about. And he pointed into his closet, where whenever you take a piece of clothing off, you put all of these naked hangers together. There's this little nudist colony of hangers right in the corner of his closet because apparently they're embarrassed hanging up. She would have been happy to do it. She didn't know it was a thing. And that's why I love Philippians 4. 8. Starting out, whatever is true, there will be legitimate frustrations in marriage. But instead of jumping to contempt, instead of jumping to judgment, ask yourself, you know, is she really trying to bug me with this? Or maybe she's never heard of it. And so, man, I found Philippians 4. 8. If they would open it up and read it and say, if this is what I'm commanded to think about, I'm commanded to not think about something that's on this list. You start to change the way you look at your spouse. You leave contempt behind, and you start to cherish your spouse.

[Evie McLeod]

So good.

[Lindsay Roman]

That's a one.

[Gary Thomas]

Two things. I'm sorry. Please, please. Okay. I found humility and empathy. They're spiritual values that I can't talk about enough. If I lose humility, then I think my marriage will be better when I fix my wife. And this is going to make me sound so horrendously awful, like a monster, but it's true. I don't know. Is maybe 15 years ago. So, you know, I've been married already for 25 years, and I was talking about my marriage. I felt God challenged me, saying, gary, you're trying to turn your wife into a love Gary, like he wants to be loved. Machine. She's my daughter. She has a calling to serve me. She's a mom. She's a friend. And I was so horrified, I couldn't have come up with that. I got to believe that was God challenging me. And I realized she has a whole life. I'm a part of her life. There are certain things I'd like a wife to do, but I got to remember, I've got to release her to serve God. I got to help her love her family, have other friends. And other things and other dreams and. And. And so I can't stress how important humility is throughout all of scripture. Humility will serve. And then I think empathy if. Because I know I'm talking mostly to wives. I'm not trying to be sexist here, but I know wise there's a lot to be frustrated with their husband, but if they would step back, you can empathize and be frustrated at the same time. Yeah, you might think, man, I wish he would just do more or get home earlier or not need to zone out when he gets home. And I don't disagree with any of that. But for instance, if he carries the bulk of the finances, of providing the finances, I know that's not always true nowadays, but just in this case, can you empathize with him? Thinking, if I fail, we might lose the house. My kids won't have the clothes. My kids may not get to go to school. I can't provide the life I want my wife to have. Can you just sit back and empathize? What does it feel like to bear that burden? That doesn't mean he shouldn't be present when he gets home, that he shouldn't just zone out, that he should get home at a certain time. But it provides a framework. Before you address what needs to change, you help to empathize with what's making life difficult for him. And so I think if a wife could just turn her posture with, boy, babe, what was toughest for you today? What's hurting you? Is there something I can do to help you? I can't tell you. I work with a lot of husbands, and if they felt their wife was just empathizing with them, what that would mean. Some guys were salivating as one guy recounted a story. He works hard and he provides really well for his wife. He loves college basketball. So at the start of March Madness, she said, hey, come in. It was the first night of the thing. She had his favorite snacks and his favorite drinks. You've been working so hard. I've got everything taken care of. If you want to call a buddy to come with you, fine. Here's your snacks. If they run out, text me, let me know. This is for you. And twice a year. I know, because all you want to and you want to get this done and that done, can you do that once a quarter? Can you just say, I want to empathize? That maybe he is working really hard. That doesn't mean he's perfect. It doesn't mean there aren't things he needs to change. But he feels like you're empathizing with him. And I think for most guys, women don't realize how. They just want to be appreciated. They just feel really taken for granted.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, that's so good. I think I would also say, I mean, you know, far better than me, Gary, but even as a woman listening to this, I'm like, I think that goes both ways. And if. If we as women and as w. We allow ourselves for just one minute to say, what is the thing I ultimately am feeling in this moment that I'm like, oh, I just wish. I wish he would come home and do X, Y, and Z. Why are we feeling that? Because we're wanting, most likely, to feel that he empathizes with us with what our day has been with the kids, with whatever it is, and to acknowledge that it's not the martyrdom. We're not trying to put on the martyrdom cap. We're trying to acknowledge that instead of sitting here and refusing to change my behaviors and to focus on, he's not doing this. I need this. Me, me, me. It's recognizing, I think this will bless my husband and create a shift in dynamic to, you know, if I'm feeling this need, he's probably feeling this need or, you know, similar. It's just that empathy even to acknowledge. If I'm feeling this, he's probably feeling.

[Lindsay Roman]

Like, if I love being appreciated and loved on, I bet he feels the same.

[Gary Thomas]

Yeah, but it's. And. But I would recognize, too. It's often different. I. Yeah, I did an informal survey of wives when I did a sermon that was just challenging the husbands, and I asked them what wives wanted most. And, like, what do you want your husbands to change? And you guys can tell me if this would be true for you. Overwhelming the responses. Gary. It's not what I want him to. It's that I want him to see without me telling him, yeah, told or asked.

[Lindsay Roman]

I want him to read my mind without me telling him what I want.

[Gary Thomas]

If he sees a mess, I want him to say, hey, I can take that care of that. If he sees the kids acting up, I don't want to be the coach telling him. And so I. But I find women saying that more than I ever hear men saying. It's understanding the emotional load that husbands have and why is that, And. And what I like. And I think what's helped me as a pastor and I focus more on women because I know you have more women listeners than men, although you do have men. So men, if you're listening, your Wife will feel loved. When you do things without being asked, that's. That's a huge thing. But when I'm with a pastor, I'm there for the couple. I'm there for the marriage. I empathize with the guy. I empathize with the women. I don't take sides. I. I think, man, it's really hard to be a woman. Man, it's really hard to be a guy. And that I, I think that helps me in my own marriage because I think through my wife's eyes, what's it like for her to be married to me? What's the most difficult thing for her about being married to me? Yeah, and it's. Well, it's worked for 40 years so far.

[Evie McLeod]

I love it.

[Lindsay Roman]

I'm just sitting here soaking in how many I need to be. I mean, I'm like listeners. If you're not taking active notes right now, I'm just like, this is a therapy session. This is like, woo, Gary, you've just been knocking us back and forth with so many good, practical, tangible takeaways that every single listener can take. I'm just. It's fine. I'm just don't have a question. You can ask a question. I'm just soaking.

[Evie McLeod]

Well, I guess I'm just curious. Curious. Gary, in. In kind of wrapping up today's conversation. Is there one? Because I know we bounced back and forth between, you know, the holiness and kind of the sanctifying and refining aspects of marriage, which all. All ties in. But we also touched on the cherishing and, you know, avoiding contempt and, you know, empathy. Is there one thing that you're like, hey, I know we covered a lot and I know it all ties in together, but this is your first step. This is the first thing I want you to walk away. Ending this episode, implementing or focusing on leaving this conversation.

[Gary Thomas]

It's the easiest question for me to answer, and we haven't addressed it yet. By far. It's been the biggest transformation in my marriage. And look again, I'm speaking as a Christian, and for me, marriage, I think, is 50% motivation because I think it's going to be difficult because we're not married to somebody who, according to the Bible, we're married to somebody who stumbles in many ways. How do I have the motivation to love somebody who's not always lovable? And I was praying one time when I wasn't being the best of husbands, which is a dangerous thing to do. And I felt God challenged me, saying, gary, Lisa isn't just your wife. She's my daughter and expect you to treat her accordingly. And I have two daughters. And if you want to get on my good side, it's easy. Be loving. Be. Be a best friend to one of my daughters. I'll love you for the rest of my life. You want to get on my bad side. It's so easy. Be mean to my daughters. There's this guy that broke her heart. I can't think about him before I do a blood pressure test, Right? So. And then when I realized that God looks at my wife like that. And so here's the motivation that has changed my marriage. Every day. I think for Christians to hunt ourselves before God. We understand God is our heavenly Father, but for marriage, I understand God is my heavenly Father in law. I'm married to God's daughter. As God's daughter, she deserves respect and love and to be cherished. Because I owe her father everything. I wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for her Heaven Father. Excuse me. And not only did he give me life, he created me a human. Like, he could have made me a squirrel. He could have made me a cat. He decided to make me human. And then as a Christian, I have the hope of Jesus. I have the power of the Holy Spirit. I mean, I can't even begin to add up what I owe God. And so he comes to me and says, gary, will you love my daughter out of reverence for me? That's how I overcome being married to somebody who stumbles in many ways. Because now if I love her out of reverence for God, God always deserves to be reverenced. Now, my wife is easy to love, but if she was, if she really had an attitude, if she was an addict, if she's doing this or that, I imagine it would be trying. But I'm not saying that I'm loving them because they deserve it, but because their heavenly Father deserves it. My heavenly Father in law. For me, that's just been a mainstay of my marriage. I make my marriage an act of worship. The biggest difference between me at 40 years of marriage and four months of marriage is that four months of marriage, I'm saying, and going to sleep. How can I get Lisa to do this? How can I get her stop doing that? Am I being noticed? Am I being appreciated? Did I make the best choice? And now I go to bed more often than not. I'm saying this. My heavenly Father, have I pleased you? By the way, I've loved your daughter today. Is there something I'm doing or not doing that you want to bring up? I have. 90% of the changes I made in my marriage have been because I've been convicted by my God, not because my wife is challenging me. So I wouldn't pray and listen to God unless you're really serious about growing. But for me, it's the sweetest thing, because if we knew how much God loves the person we marry. Ephesians 5:1 says, we are dearly loved children. That God cares about my wife so much, that is a constant check. It's why Paul says to the Colossians to husbands, always love and never be harsh. I can't ever be harsh with God's daughter. I always have to choose to love God's daughter. And that motivation is rooted in worshiping the God to whom I owe everything because I happen to be married to his daughter. Which is why I would just say, you guys can cut this out. If I'm going beyond your podcast, which is why I would say to every listener and viewer, well, I think to have the best marriage, you've got to become spiritually healthy. And that's what, for me, that's getting right with God through Jesus. It's having the Holy Spirit that will convict you. It's having the Holy Spirit that will empower you to forgive, to love, to serve. It's not just trying harder. If people are hearing that they're going to fail. It's living life in relationship to your heavenly Father, who changes your motivation, who equips you. And for me, that's done through a relationship with Jesus Christ.

[Lindsay Roman]

Mike drop. Well, that was. Wow.

[Evie McLeod]

Gary, can I repeat my own podcast episode a few times?

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah, no, we're going to be repeating this. Okay, first of all, listener, if you have not read any of Gary's books, Gary, can you allow them to correct their ways and point people in the direction of where they can find you? Learn from you, read your books, all the things, and just hear more wisdom from just everything that you've been saying.

[Gary Thomas]

Well, the foundational book is Sacred Marriage. It's sold a million copies. It's what you guys were talking about. The other book we talked about was Cherish. I've got other marriage books they could look at. My website is Gary Thomas.com so if they remember my name, where I'm most active, to interact with me. I do a couple blogs a week, mostly on marriage. Right now it's kind of been on the Lent season, but that's. The substack blog is connecttogary.com connecttogary.com and that's where I'm most active. I'm just not that active on social media anymore just for a lot of reasons. But I like to interact with people there and they can catch me there.

[Lindsay Roman]

Amazing. Thank you so much. Yeah. For your time, for your wisdom, for sharing with us, with our listeners.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Lindsay Roman]

We are forever wrecked.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Lindsay Roman]

Even more than we already were.

[Evie McLeod]

Yes. Thank you for all you're doing.

[Gary Thomas]

I, I'm just so grateful for what you're doing. The demographic you're reaching is it's a special time in life but it's not an easy time in life. So I'm thrilled that God has raised up two women to help couples face this season in life and I know not just succeed spiritually or maritally but in their vocation and whatnot. It's a special work you're doing.

[Evie McLeod]

Thank you. Thank you, Gary. We appreciate you and your time so much.

[Lindsay Roman]

Sa.