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The Heart & Hustle Podcast
445: Your Guide to Breaking Into the Luxury Wedding Market with Manda Worthington
01:13:07
Ever dreamt of breaking into the luxury wedding market but felt like it’s an exclusive club with no map? This week, Evie and Lindsey are joined by Manda Worthington, luxury wedding planner and designer, who’s pulling back the curtain on what it...
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- [00:00]
Eddie McLeod
You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast. We are your hosts, Eddie McLeod and Lindsay Roman. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of the show. This episode is going to be for our incredible wedding industry listeners. We had the honor, the privilege, the joy of bringing on Amanda Worthington. She is the owner and founder of May and Co. You might have heard of her if you are in the wedding industry in any capacity.
- [00:25]
Lindsay Roman
She is a legend.
- [00:26]
Eddie McLeod
She is a legend. She is a luxury wedding planner and she just plans and creates the most stunning, beautiful, I don't even know just events, honestly, that I've ever seen. And she just has an eye that is gorgeous. And today, well, here, first of all, let's, let's explain who she is in case for some reason you're under a rock and you don't know who she is.
- [00:47]
Amanda Worthington
So.
- [00:47]
Eddie McLeod
Amanda is an internationally renowned event producer and designer with a decade of experience curating immersive, high end celebrations across the globe. And as the founder of May and Co, she and her experienced team have produced events in some of the world's most sought after destinations, blending artistic vision with logical precision. Having Traveled to over 70 countries, the Mei & Co. Draws inspiration from diverse cultures and landscapes, creating events that are as intentional as they are unforgettable. She is literally an icon. Like, she's been featured so many times. And like I said earlier, her work is eye catching. I feel like it's very iconic. I feel like you can almost see, which I feel like is rare from a planner. Like when you see photos from a wedding, you almost can tell. I think it's like, oh, that was me and co and so she's incredible. So Evie, what did we talk about today?
- [01:38]
Lindsay Roman
We got to have an incredible conversation with Amanda. We basically pinned her in a corner and said, give us all of your wisdom and knowledge and experience.
- [01:46]
Eddie McLeod
She came willingly.
- [01:47]
Lindsay Roman
Yes. So we started off the conversation really asking her to define what is a luxury wedding, what is the luxury market? And her definition is incredible. Incredible. It is very clear in what I feel like is kind of a buzzword in the industry and can be a bit ambiguous. She gives a lot of clarity on that and then we dive into. All right, fantastic. Now that we've defined luxury, what does it look like to actually break into the luxury market as a wedding vendor? What does it look like to network? What are the ins and outs, the, the technicalities, the like little things you can implement to begin to stand out to the ideal clients, to fellow vendors, to get yourself into a world whether you're honestly wanting to be in luxury or not? I truly believe that this conversation with Manda will absolutely bless the socks off of your business and change dramatically your ability to get in the room with the people you want to be in the room with.
- [02:49]
Eddie McLeod
Yeah. Yeah. No matter what industry you're trying to get into, whether that be luxury or whatever.
- [02:56]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah. We talk about pitching what that looks like, DMs over emails, how to build connections, how to build experience when you aren't. You're trying to get in the room to do something, but somebody wants to.
- [03:10]
Eddie McLeod
Have 22 situation there.
- [03:12]
Lindsay Roman
They want you to have experience with a certain event, but you're trying to get into that event to get experience. So there's so much that Amanda just unpacks. We even talk about getting featured in British Vogue and her thoughts on that and what what were the other rapid fire at the end?
- [03:24]
Eddie McLeod
What she thinks about CRMs like Honeybook and Dubz Motto From a Planner's perspective we asked a photography specific question on what type of work. Yep. What type of portfolio you are looking for from the planner perspective that we want to showcase.
- [03:38]
Lindsay Roman
There was a lot.
- [03:39]
Eddie McLeod
There was a lot that she gave. Literally we trapped her in a corner and we said give us all the information and she did.
- [03:44]
Lindsay Roman
She delivered. So we're going to stop talking so that we can hear from the incredible Amanda Worthington.
- [03:51]
Eddie McLeod
Have you always dreamed of becoming a photographer but you have just no clue where to start when it comes to.
- [03:55]
Amanda Worthington
Operating an actual camera?
- [03:57]
Eddie McLeod
Maybe you finally bought that fancy camera.
- [03:58]
Amanda Worthington
Or you've dusted off that old DSLR sitting in your garage for way too long.
- [04:02]
Eddie McLeod
You pull out the manual and everything.
- [04:04]
Amanda Worthington
Just looks Greek to you.
- [04:05]
Lindsay Roman
Yes, we have been there and we vividly remember when we first started out as photographers asking anyone and everyone for help because we didn't know what to do or where to even start. Well, good news if that sounds familiar. Today we are going back to the basics. If you are ready to create stunning professional looking work that you are dang proud of and actually know how the.
- [04:25]
Amanda Worthington
Heck to operate your camera, download our.
- [04:28]
Lindsay Roman
Free manual Mode camera cheat sheet@theheartuniversity.com manual and you'll be on your merry way to becoming an absolute pro in no time. Hey hey.
- [04:46]
Amanda Worthington
I'm Lindsay Roman.
- [04:47]
Lindsay Roman
And I'm Evie McLeod and we are family and legacy focused serial entrepreneurs and the founders of the Hart University, a business education company with a mission to help you thrive in your business and life.
- [04:59]
Eddie McLeod
Welcome to our Entrepreneur Cocktail hour where business and marketing strategies meet Faith Real talk and raw in life changing conversations.
- [05:05]
Lindsay Roman
At the end of the day, we are all in this together. Figuring out how to navigate the ups and downs, the messy and the beautiful and everything in between. This is a community where you can come as you are, get inspired and walk away. Equipped to build a legacy filled life.
- [05:19]
Eddie McLeod
You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast. Amanda, welcome to the Heart and Hustle podcast. We have been chatting before we hit record and we. This is already going to be a great girl chat. I can just feel it.
- [05:37]
Amanda Worthington
I can feel it too. I think it's gonna be a good one. Thank you for having me.
- [05:41]
Lindsay Roman
I love it. We were, we were saying before we hit record, we don't know how this hasn't happened prior to today.
- [05:47]
Eddie McLeod
Yes.
- [05:48]
Lindsay Roman
So this is a very long time overdue in our opinion. And we are so excited to have you here. You are just a legend and icon in this industry and also just so knowledgeable and so incredible at teaching what you do to others.
- [06:03]
Eddie McLeod
So we're like, I also think ready. You have a goldmind in your head on the specific things that I think a lot of wedding vendors, but especially wedding photographers, as are a lot of our listeners, want to know specifically when it comes to the luxury industry. So we can't wait to chat with you.
- [06:22]
Amanda Worthington
I am so excited to dive in and I'm an open book. So literally nothing is off the table. You ask me anything and everything, I'm here for it.
- [06:30]
Eddie McLeod
Don't tell us that we will be here for three hours. No, I'm kidding.
- [06:34]
Lindsay Roman
We're going to share Rogan this, this and go for hours and hours.
- [06:39]
Amanda Worthington
Perfect. That's my favorite. So I love it. I'm here for it.
- [06:44]
Eddie McLeod
I love it.
- [06:44]
Lindsay Roman
Okay, well Amanda, just kind of start us off. For anyone who maybe does not know who you are or isn't just like super, super familiar with the work that you currently do. Are you willing to share a little bit about who you are and your, I guess journey or what you do now?
- [07:00]
Amanda Worthington
Yeah. Yes. So I mean essentially to boil it down, I plan luxury events all over the world. We're actually destination based so I don't plan not, you know, I technically I guess I could say I'm west coast based. When people ask, a lot of people ask like where are you located? Which is always such a confusing question for me to answer because I'm like am I located so somewhere. So we're like fully destination based and we specialize in multi day events and high level design. I started from very, very humble Beginnings, which I think definitely plays into the style of education that I have, because I did not start by any means at a luxury level. I didn't even come from like, I mean, I came from Gresham, which if anyone listening knows where that it is, there's no reason you would know. And it's outside of Portland, Oregon. And you know, my. I just didn't, I didn't come from any type of like a luxury background and really started my journey more as an entrepreneur and someone who really, really, really loved starting businesses and had a passion for running things correctly and building teams and managing people and systems and all the, you know, bank accounts, all the things. And, and then also had this massive passion for timelines and organizing things and making people happy and designing and creating beauty. And you know, I think probably a lot of the things you normally hear when a planner talks about why they get into planning, but I definitely started as just a day of coordinator like for $200. And I was doing, I think my second year of business. I did like 65 weddings. I was just, I just went so hard and it's so funny. I know I was just talking to my partner the other day about, I was like, do you remember was it year three that I made you. I made us drive six hours so you could officiate a wedding. Then you could also turn around and bartend that same wedding while I was running the entire wedding from like sun up to sundown. And did we get paid for that? Like that was literally my first couple years of business. So me, you know, being where I'm at now, I think I have a unique perspective on where I'm at and how to get here in general. You know what I mean? Yeah, you've, you've walked the road 100%. 1.
- [09:41]
Eddie McLeod
I just love the, the honesty of like I did not come from Lux. Like I hustled my butt off and like grew my business. So I guess what is the, is the landscape now? Like you started more so as a day of coordinator and so now you said you, you plan multi day events. Is it mostly weddings or is it all sorts of events?
- [10:06]
Amanda Worthington
Yeah, so we will do all sorts of events. I mean we've done like high level branding events and retreats and such, but we definitely primarily focus on weddings and the events that support weddings. So we actually, we don't do more than four is ideal, you know, sometimes five maybe weddings a year now and they're all destination based. We have like a very intimate crew, but we also probably source between locally and also just like freelancers that come on with us, we'll have a team, usually around 12 on site. And we usually do, you know, anywhere between like three to six days of events. The last wedding we did was five days. The one before that was four days, but it was five events in four days. So they're very high level production, very detail oriented, very, you know, time intensive. So there's no way I could take on more than five weddings because I am essentially slamming in five weddings into one wedding at this point. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, that's pretty. I mean, it's quite an interesting contrast to where I started, but that's kind of the landscape of where we're at now.
- [11:24]
Eddie McLeod
Totally.
- [11:25]
Lindsay Roman
I love it.
- [11:25]
Eddie McLeod
I. I guess I want to know, in your journey of kind of stepping into the luxury market, was there a moment where you felt the shift into. I guess maybe that's part two of the question. Maybe part one should be like defining luxury because I feel like it's such a buzzword in this industry and we. Everyone is using it as like a trendy word without actually like, what does that mean? And when did you personally feel yourself be like, oh, I think I'm in it, or I'm saying it. I've intentionally taken steps to be in it.
- [11:57]
Amanda Worthington
Yes, yes. So I think that that's such. I think that's such an interesting question. And if you had asked me like three years ago, my answer would have been vastly different than it is now. And mostly just because my personality type is very one of like being in the moment and looking ahead, where sometimes I mean, honestly to a fault in a lot of ways. But it's also, I'm constantly pushing for like, what's next, what's next? And climbing and climbing and climbing. So to the point where it really, until the last couple years have I been very reflective of how did I get here? Sometimes good, sometimes bad. And I think, I think to define what is luxury, I think a lot of the time people. What's simple to do is relate that to, you know, money. Basically, I think is like the most basic way that most people look at luxury. And it's really just not the case at all. It's actually interesting. You can work with luxury clients who still have a budget of only $600,000. You can work with luxury clients who have a budget of $7 million. It's what it really comes down to a lot of the time is a production level, I would say, more than anything, and an experience level of the team that's involved and the experience that we want to create for the guests that are going to be there, it's not just about having an expensive wedding. And I think that that's what's so difficult to, for a lot of people to wrap their heads around, especially if they don't come from money. Because we all have completely different ideas of what a lot of money is, obviously. And when you potentially do not grow up with Money, you know, $60,000 can sound like luxury to you. And then if you do grow up in money, you're like, $7 million is like standard, you know. So I think, unfortunately, if we base it solely on money, then it's too subjective. I think in my opinion, things that really define like the luxury market is not only the experience of the vendors, but also the experience that's being given to the guests. And I know that that even sounds like a little bit vague, but there's just a level of production that goes into luxury events that I don't think you could fully wrap your head around until you are in it and executing it. So to answer the second part of that question again, two part answer. Because the first time that I realized, like, oh, okay, I think I finally made it was financially speaking. It was the first time that I, I think I grew my business constantly feeling like I was over delivering. And actually that was one of my big sales assets is like, we're so good at our job. You're gonna feel like this is a steal. Not because I was like underpricing myself. I kept increasing my pricing to feel like I was matching my value, but I felt like I was constantly over delivering. And then I hit a specific point where the paycheck that I got or whatever we invoiced, I was like, this is what it should be. Like, this feels right. I feel like I've, I, and it, it felt at the time life changing to me where I was like, oh my God, I haven't been doing this this whole time. And this is how I'm going to make the money I need to make. This is how I'm going to pay my team the way I need to pay my team. This is how I'm going to provide the service that I want to provide. This is it. I, I, I did it. And then fast forward another couple of years when I did, you know, a massive, massive, massive wedding. And it was like a slap in the face where I was like, oh, this is it. I'm in it, I'm in it. And I, and I, it's, it was such A distinct feeling because while I, I feel like I crushed it, I still, I almost felt like, what have the last however many years been for? This is such a different, such an intense world. Whether it was like personality types or again, like the level of production, the level of expertise that was needed, the level of experience that was needed that like almost nothing can prepare you for, especially if you didn't start there. You know, I do think that there's people who start in the luxury market, so they're kind of like inundated with, with the expectations and the personality types from day one. And if you're not from that and then you get there, you're like, oh, oh, okay, I get it now. It's totally different. This is not just a more expensive wedding. This is an entire different world that I stepped into. So I think it was kind of a two parter for me.
- [16:56]
Lindsay Roman
That's so cool.
- [16:58]
Amanda Worthington
I.
- [16:59]
Lindsay Roman
Before we almost talk, because we want to get all of your wisdom, expertise, experiences, tips, strategies, all of the things on walking the road. For anyone who is currently listening to this, who is like, I would really be intrigued to break into more of the luxury market or even maybe after hearing that definition, they're realizing, okay, I'm just wanting to break into a higher budget wedding, not necessarily luxury. So they've made a distinction. But before we get into that, I'm a little bit curious of what your thoughts are on the trendiness of the term luxury in this industry.
- [17:38]
Eddie McLeod
And it's almost like what's, if you think about like, I feel like 2017-2020, at least in the photography realm, I feel like adventurous elopements were like the thing.
- [17:50]
Amanda Worthington
Totally.
- [17:50]
Eddie McLeod
And now I feel like luxury. Luxury, just like blanket statement.
- [17:54]
Amanda Worthington
Yes, yes. You know that, you know, you know what I think happened? I think everyone wanted adventure elopements because they were like, I want to travel. Because everything is based on what society makes of it. And society tells you that if you travel, you are successful or if you travel, you're doing something great that no one else is doing. And so a lot of the time when you are an entrepreneur, you're making your own business, you get to dictate what that looks like. And if you feel like living the dream is traveling, then you get to create that in your business. So that's lovely. And I think adventure elopements were so big because everyone's like, I get to travel. I just get to hang out with my clients and be best friends and go on a hike. And then people realized, oh, I'm not gonna make any money doing this and traveling is so exhausting and maybe I need to shift things a little bit so that I can make a sustainable living. And then luxury somehow became like, it's not, you know, it's not like luxury was never a thing before. It for sure was. Yes. Out of nowher, it popped up as this hot word. And what I really think it is is vendors in the wedding industry looking for a way to put a higher value on their services so they can make a sustainable living. I think at the end of the day, sometimes what we're calling luxury is really just like I'm just trying to charge enough to pay my bills, you know what I mean? I don't think they correlate. I think it's just a word we started slapping on to say I'm expensive. I'm more expensive than what you are used to.
- [19:30]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [19:32]
Amanda Worthington
Which is, is hard because it dilutes the entire meaning of the word luxury. And then that becomes scary because are you just trying to make more money, which is valid, you probably should be making more money, or are you trying to put yourself in this world of intense, high production, high expectations, eclectic personalities? I mean, which world are you trying to be in? Because there's, there's a difference. And actually if you don't call yourself luxury, if you just call yourself high end or experienced or whatever you want to call yourself, you'll probably, you could potentially book more jobs without trying to shove yourself into the luxury space and then getting yourself potentially, you know, into a situation that you're like, oh, I, I didn't, this isn't what I wanted. I'm not trying to be here, you know.
- [20:20]
Eddie McLeod
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
- [20:22]
Lindsay Roman
I'm curious from, from like a planner because we're, I know we're going to talk about this a lot of like in the luxury world, a planner is so often the one who is vetting, selecting, you know, the, the vendors that they are working with either off of a preferred vendor list or if you're going off of the list, like you're the one doing the research, whatever. Is it a turn off to you to see other vendors, especially now with the buzz of like, call themselves the term luxury. Like do you look at a photographer who says I am a luxury wedding photographer and kind of roll your eyes or is that not you don't even blink at that. Does that make sense?
- [20:59]
Amanda Worthington
Oh, it totally makes sense. Yes, absolutely. And would I say I roll my eyes? No. But would I say, to me, would I say no, it's it's, it is a pretty obvious tell that they are probably just wanting to be in a higher end space to be able to charge more. But are they an actual, do they have experience in luxury weddings? Most photographers who are actually in the luxury space, like the real luxury space, would never call themselves a luxury wedding photographer. Most, I'm not going to say all, but I would say 90% of the photographers I work with do not refer to themselves as luxury at all. They just would call themselves maybe a destination wedding photographer or maybe just a wedding photographer. Because so much of those people who are at that caliber, so much of that is word of mouth anyways, they're not having to prove it through a tagline, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I do think, I think it's more telling than people realize it is when they do use buzzwords like that.
- [22:09]
Eddie McLeod
Well, okay, this leads to the next question, but I guess what in your opinion sets a quote unquote luxury like an actual one, not one that just calls themselves that, but an actual luxury vendor Apart, is it the price, the service, the aesthetic, or something else? Like when you're looking either at your vendor list or your preferred vendor list or anybody else that you're looking for and researching for, I guess what makes them stand apart as somebody that you would want to work with?
- [22:35]
Amanda Worthington
Yeah, I 1000% it comes down to experience. I would say I think someone can be an incredible photographer, like amazing. And if you're an incredible photographer, that might give you extra bonus points for a planner to like want to take a chance on you maybe. But at the end of the day, I'm looking for experience almost always over anything. And that is usually experience directly related to whatever type of wedding my client's gonna have. So again, it can't just be a blanket statement of like you should be in the industry 16 years. I think, again, that becomes really difficult for a lot of photographers who are like, I've been doing this for 20 years, I have the experience. How come I'm not getting these, you know, high level jobs with these insane planners. But I think, for instance, I did a multi day wedding in March, had five events. It was an insane level of production. It was essentially like a concert and music festival mixed with this wedding that had eight different themes. And it was, I mean it was multiple events put into one. And I knew that whatever photographer I was going to use had to have a very established team that they worked with, often had to shoot on, you know, had to shoot film and shoot drone and whatever else, whatever else you guys shoot with and. And that I knew that they were going to take care of their stuff and they were going to understand the dynamics of a potentially very discerning and demanding client as well. Because I was like, I can't have someone on site who's going to get their feelings hurt. I can't have someone on site who's going to come across unprofessional or inexperienced. I need to have someone who basically does. Barely needs to hear from me at all throughout the weekend and know they're going to get every single shot we need them to get. So that comes down to who has the experience doing this style of wedding. Whereas, you know, even if I. The budget could be a much lower. It could be a 40 person wedding and maybe it's on just a private island. That would require a different skill set. Maybe I look for someone who I know has a ton of experience in travel or a ton of experience with celebrities. Like, but what it comes down to is if I know I have a certain level of experience and I know what I'm bringing to the table with my client, and then I'm bringing on a vendor team who is a direct reflection of me. I mean, it's essentially me hiring for me, then using someone who brings the same level of attention and the same experience and the same confidence that I know my team's gonna bring. That's more important to me than anything.
- [25:26]
Eddie McLeod
Yeah.
- [25:28]
Lindsay Roman
This wasn't necessarily the next question on the list, but I just, I feel like it like follows up and flows with what you just said, Amanda, which is so good. But what would you say to the person who's listening to this, who's like, okay, I'm. I'm not in my first year or two of business. I have been doing this for a certain period of time. Or maybe they are still in the first few years of business, but let's be real. They are able to look at their work and be like, I deliver good work. And I would really like to start getting experience in certain styles of wedding, multi day, you know, events, or, you know, I would love to break into something like you're saying you look for experience in some of these areas. Do you have an opinion? And this might accidentally segue us perfectly into kind of like the other theme of luxury, but do you have an opinion for the photographer who's like, okay, I would love to have experience in this. How do I. How do I even get experience in this? Do you have thoughts from the planner's perspective?
- [26:32]
Amanda Worthington
I know that's so frustrating. And I feel like that's a question that I get all the time where I'm like, you have to have experience. And then to your point, everyone's always like, but how? If no one will take a chance on me, how do I get that experience? I get it. I mean, I've been there and I think, I think there's a couple different things that you can try to do. First off, you can't give up. It is not going. I know that this sounds cliche, but the harder it is, the harder you have to work. It is not something that will come easily. It is just like if you want to get to that top tier or the most elite realm of weddings, you can be in whatever that is to you. That is no different than saying, I want to be the, the best lawyer in all of California. Like, we have to start looking at our jobs the same way we look at any other job, because that's what it is. Our careers, our businesses, they ha. They hold the same weight as any other job. It's just in a different market and industry and we have to take them with the same amount of seriousness that you would take. Think about what a lawyer goes through to get into that place. They, how much schooling they do, or doctors or anything like that. And again, I'm not saying saying being a wedding planner is maybe as important as being a brain surgeon. I understand that. I'm a self aware person. But for the industry I'm in, if you want an incredible wedding, it is as it relates to weddings, it's a very important job and it should be taken seriously in the same way. Okay, so then a lot of the time what we do is say it's like we think that we should just automatically get to a place. And I'm like, why? Every other career in the world spends eight years in school and then has to intern with seven different people and then they work 20 years to get where they are. Why in the world would you think that you were just going to jump there without, without actually putting in the time and effort that you need to, to get there. So I hope what that does is actually just take a lot of pressure off a lot of people here that are like, I've been working so hard at it for three years, like, settle in, babe, because you got a ways to go and that's normal. That's actually normal. You're not doing anything wrong. But I think, I think what's important to do is even if you can't get experience in those weddings, what you can do is build relationships with people who do have experience in those weddings. Because eventually if you create the correct relationship, this is how people get, I don't want to say lucky breaks because I don't believe in luck, but breaks, this is how people get. That is you make a genuine enough connection with someone, you network with them, you build rapport, you show your work and eventually the opportunity comes around where they say, I have a client whose personality would match with you perfectly. I trust that you'll bring what I need you to bring to the table. I think that because of your price point, I can sell you to them because it's probably less than maybe someone else that you might be competing with. I'm going to take a chance on you and I'm going to see, I'm going to see how it goes because it will happen every now and then it will happen and then that becomes your break and then you get experience and then it builds from there. But you can't just obviously throw yourself into a high level wedding. You have to network with the people who are doing those. So hopefully at some point someone refers your name or talks about you or whatever they do or as a photographer, you want to second shoot so much probably. I mean that's, that's something that photographers have that actually some other, a lot of other vendors in the industry don't necessarily have the ability to do at such a high level. Like I think when you second shoot you're getting very hands on experience, like wildly hands on experience. Whereas even, even a florist or a planner, there's your. If you come on and you freelance for a job, you're kind of removed quite a bit. You know, if someone is just like freelancer for me on the day of, they don't see any of what goes into the back end. They don't see any of the communication I have with clients, any of that. And I'm not saying a second shooter sees that stuff, but a lot of, I think the bulk of what a photographer does is day of and then post. So for someone to be able to come in and full on get the experience like dealing with the guests and the clients and seeing how a high end photographer works, that's gold. Yeah. In my opinion.
- [31:28]
Lindsay Roman
100.
- [31:29]
Eddie McLeod
I feel like it reminds me of climbing stairs like in the journey. Please unpack this in the journey of growing in your career. Especially in the wedding industry. It's like kind of to your point of like, oh, we see people that are in like year three or even seven of their business. And it's like, oh, I just want to be in the luxury space or I want to be at that level. And it's all. It's almost, at least from my perspective of hearing it and seeing it, it's just, it's almost like you're waiting. Not that you're not doing anything, but it's almost like you're waiting for that lucky break, like you said, or that opportunity to come to you, or you're wanting to just like jump the stairs.
- [32:11]
Lindsay Roman
I was gonna say you're expecting something to happen overnight, right?
- [32:13]
Eddie McLeod
And you're like, okay, I'm here and my work is incredible. And your work might be absolutely incredible, but it's like you're waiting for an opportunity to like jump the stairs and be like, okay, I want to work there. Whereas instead it's like stair step. That's what that was. Where the analogy.
- [32:28]
Lindsay Roman
Climb the stairs is what you're saying.
- [32:29]
Eddie McLeod
We'Ll climb the stairs of, of like, okay, so maybe you don't have the experience of working with like a luxury planner that would, you know, reach out to you or be on your vendor or you would be on their vendor list. But could you work with like again, slowly stair stepping higher end weddings where maybe the couple is booking you directly and even though they have a planner and it's like it's still getting you higher end looking work. And it's like you're stair stepping, you're getting featured, you're submitting. And it's like, I feel like that's how you would get experience that would then attract someone like at your level. Amanda, where it's like, maybe they haven't done like a fully luxury style wedding, but it's like they clearly have experience in this, in the stair step of that that leads to that. Would you agree?
- [33:17]
Amanda Worthington
And I feel like that's any, any journey, even if it's not. Again, I kind of think that we always correlate like the luxury market to being like the top or the best. And I always try to make it clear like, it's just another market like any. It's just a harder one to get into. So because of the experience that's needed to be in it, and experience takes time. But if you just wanted to swap up the market you were in and say you were essentially like, okay, now I only want to do, I don't know, intimate weddings or something, or I only want to do purple weddings, whatever, you would have to change in your business to decide, like, I'm going to make this Shift. And I'm going to only show purple weddings until I only get hired by people who want purple weddings. It's just another market you're trying to break into. It's just very hard because of essentially the time that it takes to have what those people are looking for. And to your point, actually, and a good example of this is there's a florist who is reaching out to me for a while and has been very, very, very persistent and also just lovely. She went to a networking event. I met her in person and she reached out to me and was like, hey, you know this florist who you've worked with on multiple events? I have freelanced for her. I was actually on the events. So this is such a prime example of that. Automatically put her above anyone else in my book. Because I was like, oh, I know you saw how that florist work. I know you have, you basically have experience on high end events. Maybe you haven't ran them from start to finish, but you have a level of experience that someone else competing with you doesn't have. So you're. You have automatically gone up a notch in my book. And then she was so persistent and genuine. Not persistent as far as reaching out to me once a week, being like, I really want to work with you, but just reaching out to me to try to like, connect, have a conversation with me. And then if basically I posted one thing about, I'm trying to plan a shoot here, just in conversation. I wasn't even asking for anyone. And she was like, I know you know this, but like, I'll be there and I'll be there for free. Like, whatever you need me to do, I will be there. Like, she put in the time and the work and because she had that extra level of. I've worked on one of these jobs for someone who you trust, that trust and that experience and that persistence all work together. Where I was like, sure, you should be. You should definitely be the florist on my, on my next shoot. And it worked out for her. So I think that that's a true testament of. By putting in the time, networking with whoever you can, trying to get your foot in the door with just having experience that goes a long way. You don't just have to, you don't just get to say, I'm a luxury vendor and then people assume you are. You know what I mean?
- [36:09]
Lindsay Roman
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Lindsay Roman
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Eddie McLeod
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Amanda Worthington
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- [37:21]
Eddie McLeod
Out the link in our show notes.
- [37:24]
Lindsay Roman
Hello, I wanted to interrupt this episode really quick to remind you that we have an apparel shop with heart filled pieces. See what we did there that we have designed with you in mind.
- [37:35]
Eddie McLeod
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- [37:44]
Lindsay Roman
This collection is for you if you love the show and want to share it with your friends in a cool way. Or if you want to wear something cute as heck that was intentionally designed with powerful phrases to remind you that you can do it, you were made to be a world changer and that the Lord created you wildly capable of big freaking things.
- [38:02]
Eddie McLeod
Now Obvi, this is a podcast and.
- [38:04]
Amanda Worthington
We can't show you how cute as.
- [38:05]
Eddie McLeod
Heck these pieces are on the show. So run, don't walk to the heart shop to check out our apparel and more. You can head to www.theheartuniversity.com appare to grab your favorite pieces today. I love that example. That was such a good example of like also practical things that she did. I feel like that leads us perfectly though into I feel like the big question I think that most photographers and even probably other wedding vendors have specifically for planners is I feel like one of the and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know anything. But you know many things. It Feels like the one of the big differences between even higher end weddings and like luxury markets is the planner is usually, if not always the one that is reaching out to acquire all the vendors versus the couple. And I, I feel like most people that are trying to get into the luxury space, at least in the photography industry or wedding industry, know that. And so the big question is, okay, if I need to network with planners a la people like Manda, like, what, what is the thing to do? What is the thing not to do? Because clear, you mentioned that florist, she was persistent and like, I guess I'm, I'm wondering if you have any do's and don'ts per se of how to network and reach out to planners and.
- [39:25]
Lindsay Roman
Like, what other vendors too?
- [39:27]
Eddie McLeod
Yes.
- [39:27]
Lindsay Roman
Are you specifically asking planners?
- [39:29]
Eddie McLeod
Well, because she's a planner, so I'm.
- [39:30]
Lindsay Roman
Asking her for her experience.
- [39:33]
Amanda Worthington
I get it, yes. And to like, to your earlier point, 1000% in high end weddings, especially like in the luxury space, the planners is fully responsible for booking all vendors through and through. Half the time my clients don't even look at the Instagram of the people that I refer to them. Like, they essentially just say, like, yep, if that's who you think we should go with, that's who we're going with. So we talk about this a lot. As you said, in the industry of like, if that's who you're trying to get in with, you need to get in with the planner. Stop trying to market towards a client or a couple. Your new client is the planner. So you have to shift the way you market and the way you think and the way you act on social media and in your business. As far as like, do's and don'ts, I think I, to be completely fair, I do think that this probably varies a bit from planner to planner because I can't speak for someone who's been in the industry for 25 years. I think as a planner, I think as anyone potentially in the wedding industry, you can become a little bit, A little bit. I don't want to say jaded, but I am going to say jaded because obviously we know our jobs are really hard. The market, the industry we're in is, it's intense. And I think people don't give planners enough grace. But holy moly, the what they go through with every single job is, can be so gut wrenching. I can't Even imagine being 25 years deep and not feeling a little bit like if you're not one of my preferred vendors, don't Even look in my direction. I can't, I can't, I can't. You know, like, I get that. And so I do think that I'm. I'm. I'm more at a unique spot where I, you know, have been in the luxury space now for three years. And so part of it, and also just who I am or being younger or whatever it is, or maybe just not coming from luxury also gives me a little bit of a feeling of, like, I want to be able to give that chance to other people. So I don't know. What I'm saying is I don't know if every other planner will feel this way. I can't speak for everyone, but I really value people. First off, I value ambition. Like, I very much. I think there is such a massive difference from people who just say they want something and people who are willing to work their asses off for it. And to me, again, this probably relates to me because I feel like I had to claw my way to where I am. So when I see that in a vendor, I relate to it and I have a soft spot for it. So for me to see that and to have someone be very persistent, it always speaks to me. I think being authentic in general, though, not reaching out to me, I can very vividly tell you I got a DM this morning from someone who has reached out to me quite a few times. And they're lovely people. I actually really, really like them personally. But their message to me this morning was, hey, how are you? And I said, oh, I'm good. How are you? Thinking that this was going to be a nice conversation. And then they were, like, really good. Just wanted to tell you again that we really want to work with you. And I'm like, I know we've talked about it. You've already. You told me this two weeks ago. Like, it starts to not feel genuine at that point. Right? Like, that's. You don't need to remind me 400 times you want to work with me. I don't need that. You know, as long as you're in front of me and you're trying to have an authentic relationship with me and we're having conversation. That's enough. You don't need to remind me that you're a photographer or a florist or whatever you do. I see that. I'm very aware. So I just want to know that you potentially want to connect with me. This isn't even about me being like, I want. I want you to want to be my friend that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm just saying there needs to be a piece of genuine authenticity when you're reaching out to a planner you want to work with. It cannot. While all. I think a lot of relationships are transactional, that's just, just a fact. I think if you're trying to get in front of a planner, you gotta give them something else besides I want to work with you. Stop doing that. I think that's just unfortunately I love this person so much and it turned me off so much that I'm like, well, bummer man. Because now, now I like want to work with you less. Don't do that.
- [44:08]
Eddie McLeod
Yeah, so it's like every reach out feels like it will be genuine and then it just like transitions back into like, yes, please choose me.
- [44:17]
Amanda Worthington
Yes. Like a salesy. Like a sales.
- [44:19]
Lindsay Roman
Yep.
- [44:20]
Amanda Worthington
And no one likes, no one likes sales. Who likes sales. Who likes being sold to literally no one. So don't, don't do that with a planner either. And again, don't. And I'm not saying that this is what this person did, but don't insult a planner's intelligence by saying, don't forget I'm a photographer and I'm here and if you need a photographer, I'm here. Like knowing I know, I'm well aware. I see you. You don't have to remind me, just be real with. And then if I need you or if I want to take a chance on someone, like you're there and that's so great. So I think, you know, do's just work on it. Just look at it as a long term investment. Just comment on their posts just like again, authentically, don't be cheesy. Say real things. DM them when it makes sense. You know, if you have an opportunity and you want to reach out to them and say like look, I know there's absolutely no chance probably of you wanting to do this with me, but I would do anything to have you there. So just let me know that's authentic. That will reach through to a planner faster than just being like don't forget I'm a photographer over here. You know what the difference?
- [45:28]
Eddie McLeod
Yeah, it's common sense.
- [45:30]
Amanda Worthington
Well, I also think of it seems like it, but that's true.
- [45:34]
Lindsay Roman
I also, maybe this is not the proper analogy but it like mandate you pointing out it's very like salesy 100%. But the other thing that comes into my mind is also it is almost giving like desperate clingy boyfriend vibes in the sense that it's like it's all about you. You're turning this to you every single.
- [45:57]
Eddie McLeod
Time versus how can you serve that person?
- [45:59]
Lindsay Roman
Yes. And I think that's like, like you're saying, Amanda, there's a level of authenticity of actually trying to build a relationship, which you pointed out. You're like, this isn't about me. I'm not trying to be like, you have to be all about me as the planner. But there is an element of it's a two way street. And you're both trying to like see how you could serve or you know, empower, bless, whatever, help the other person in their role and kind of coming to those networking conversations, to those that relationship building online, aware of like, hey, photographer, florist, whoever. Maybe if you are trying to, you know, build a relationship with a planner, do not constantly be like, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, please, please, please. Because there's an element that's just like, that's just, ugh, like after a while you're like, you're here for.
- [46:49]
Eddie McLeod
You think of someone doing that to.
- [46:52]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [46:52]
Eddie McLeod
How would you feel?
- [46:53]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah, it's like actually care about the planner and be like, how can I serve? Or just simply even like chat or have a conversation or, or you know, share my experience with this planner as they're like, you know, posting something on their stories, talking about something in the florist realm. Wait, that's my realm. Wait, I have a story actually that might be interesting to this planner to hear from a perspective of a florist. I'm going to DM that to them. Like, it's just like bigger than you.
- [47:22]
Amanda Worthington
Yes, yes. I don't know exactly. And, and again, to take it a little, a little bit half circle is how would you apply for any job if you were trying to get a lawyer's firm to take a chance on you as being an assistant? If you were trying to work, you know, anywhere, how would you continuously put yourself in front of those people? Would you get, would you be there and be like, remember I'm me. Would you say that? Or would you like provide value or try to just look at it like, oh, you know what, I'm just going to connect with you or I'm going to connect with people, you know, so that way when you need something, maybe my name will pop up in the realm. And that's, I think actually is how a lot of the way how I built my business was like, I'm just going to network with everyone and I just want my name, I just want my name to be out there. And I want it to be everywhere. So I'm going to say yes to everyone, everything. I'm going to work with every single person I can. And that's going to be my form of networking, is I just want everyone to know who May and Co is. And that's a big part of it too is you don't have to just say, like, here's this one planner. And I'm just going to hone in on them and I'm just going to attack, attack, attack, attack. Like you can go about it from different ways. So that when I say I need a florist and I talk to one of my florist friends and I say, I don't have the budget for that or something like that, that florist will then say, cool. Well, I've had this girl freelance for me and she's really amazing. That is networking. There's other ways to get. That's all I'm saying is like, it's not just stairs up. Sometimes you're traversing a little bit. You know what I mean?
- [49:01]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [49:03]
Eddie McLeod
I'm practical poly over here and I really love asking, like, okay, wait, can we get practical examples? So when you're. I'm hearing you mentioned, like dm, do you prefer DM over email? Are they equal in your mind? Like, would you prefer. Or maybe again, you're not speaking for all planners, but just in general, like, is there anything. Because what I heard was, was dm. I heard constant engagement of like comments, commenting, making sure you're kind of just like aware, like in their ecosystem. Be not clingy boyfriend. Be like a normal human being that is genuine. Like, is there profound information. But I think people like forget how to be genuine when they're like chasing after goals and they like are one tracked mind you forget that like actually being a normal human person.
- [49:57]
Amanda Worthington
Yeah.
- [49:58]
Eddie McLeod
Actually gets you kind of far in life.
- [49:59]
Amanda Worthington
But.
- [50:01]
Eddie McLeod
But like, is there anything else that you would recommend to somebody that wants to start, I guess, rubbing shoulders and kind of like networking with planners in their region or not in their region? Like, is there anything else other than maybe engagement and DMS that you'd recommend?
- [50:22]
Amanda Worthington
Okay, so first off, I would say because you, you did ask DMS versus Emails. The majority of planners are going to have an executive assistant or at least an admin. And I don't even see 80% of the emails that come into my inbox.
- [50:37]
Eddie McLeod
T. Okay, that's good.
- [50:39]
Amanda Worthington
Yeah. So. And my assistant knows pretty much. Like, she'll suss out. I mean, she'll go at someone's portfolio and their experience to be like, do you want to put this person somewhere in case of something someday? So she'll suss it out for me. But I, I, she'll file pretty much everything away from me. So DMs, I think even the people, even, even planners who have been doing it for 30 years, I still, and maybe even more, I think DMs are going to be your best bet as far as direct connection. That being said, if I had to give really, like, I think good solid advice is stop trying to connect with the one person and try to connect with their orbit of people. Because to me, I just think that that can be an alternative to just trying to get in front of one person, which feels like a daunting task. But if you're a florist, connect with the florists that I work with. If you are a photographer, connect with the photographers that I work with or connect with the florists I work with. Like get your name in with the people who talk to and hang out with and work with the person you're wanting to work with. And that is a roundabout way and sometimes more attainable way of getting your information in front of those people. And because in the high end space with high end planners, we are so very much, we base everything on being trust, basically being able to like really trust the people we're working with. So if we have a referral, a referral from another planner who I very much trust, if, if a planner says here's a photographer or here's a paper goods designer that I really, really love and I think that they would be great for you. Done. They're hired. They're, they're literally hired. So I think instead of getting tunnel vision on like one planner and just like flying into their DMs constantly, start working with the other people that they potentially work with or talk to and get in that way, you know what I mean? I think it's an alternative that I think can actually be much more effective than just tunnel visioning on. I need to become best friends with this one planner.
- [52:58]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah, it's casting your net wide. Like, it's like, hey, stop putting out a single fishing hook into this vast ocean like and be like, hey, remember me?
- [53:10]
Amanda Worthington
Exactly.
- [53:11]
Lindsay Roman
How are you? Fantastic. All right. I just wanted to remind you that I'm a photographer.
- [53:15]
Amanda Worthington
No, no. The amount of those mess I was like, I'm just, I'm not, I appreciate the ambition here, I really do. But like, I don't I don't have time for this. Yes.
- [53:29]
Eddie McLeod
Also when you, when you mentioned your assistant looking through the emails, I just imagine like a, like a folder filed be like pitch. Like pitch graveyard.
- [53:38]
Amanda Worthington
Yes. Yeah, it's there. It exists.
- [53:40]
Lindsay Roman
Well, I'm also, even as you're saying like, hey, maybe do DMs or whatever, I'm also just thinking through from my personal experience if, if somebody cold pitches me and I'm curious, Amanda, for you and your experiences, if somebody just. I have never talked to them before. They have never been.
- [53:59]
Eddie McLeod
They don't.
- [54:00]
Lindsay Roman
Well, yeah, that's a whole other conversation. But they, they've never commented on anything. They've never replied to a story. They've never DM'd me about anything ever. And they just send me a pitch like, hey, I would love to second shoot with you.
- [54:11]
Eddie McLeod
I'm literally never looking at that again.
- [54:12]
Lindsay Roman
There's an element that I might glance at, like, you know, glance at their page for a second and then never.
- [54:20]
Amanda Worthington
Look at it again.
- [54:21]
Lindsay Roman
But, but there is a difference. If somebody like, I would almost, and I'm curious if you would say this, I would encourage anyone in my like, experiences as photographer, if you're trying to second shoot with another photographer and I would assume this would translate, start building the relationship and the connection for a reasonable Runway of time. Like I would probably say several months at least where you're consistently engaging. They kind of recognize and know your name before you send that pitch. And I know that could sound frustrating because it's like, okay, you're telling me to wait longer. I like this. All this whole thing feels like time, but I think that's going to get you so much further sending that pitch at that point than just eight. That is the first DM that they are ever receiving. It's in their requests folder. There is like no history there whatsoever. Would you agree with that, Amanda? Even when you're saying like, hey, DM pitches over email pitches, would you probably say to approach it that way first?
- [55:20]
Amanda Worthington
Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I would say, like, don't pitch really in general. If you can avoid it or if you do, you know, it needs to be very thought out and very intentional. And to your point, there needs to be building blocks there. It is a long term investment. There is no investment in the world that you can put into. And the next day you have 100%, you know, turned your ROI into something that you can retire on. Like, that is literally not how it works in any realm of any industry. So if you think about it, if you were to consistently get on a planner's preferred list. That is just guaranteed work consistently. It is a guaranteed return client. So why wouldn't you take all the time needed to make sure that you can get. And it might. And I also want to put out there. It might not happen with one specific, specific planner. It's not just like, put in the time and it'll, It'll. It'll come. That's also just not how life works. Sometimes it doesn't come with that one planner. Sometimes there's a different planner it's going to come with, and that needs to be okay, too. But I do think building that relationship beforehand and being intentional about it, just like you said. Yeah. If you just get a cold pitch and, and you can tell that person hasn't even looked at your work, it just shows such a lack of intentionality that I'm like, if you're going to be like this with me, what are you going to be like with my couple? I mean, I don't. Why would I, Why in the world would I trust that? And having intentionality and also having a vendor reach out to me who I can tell has taken the time to look at my work and say my work feels similar to your work. And I think the experience I provide reflects the same experience that you provide. That again, already takes, you know, 10 steps out of it. Now I, I already know I can at least somewhat trust you because you've taken the time to look at my Instagram feed.
- [57:27]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah, yeah. And you know the work they're willing to put in.
- [57:30]
Amanda Worthington
Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [57:34]
Eddie McLeod
I want to honor your time. I have, like, a bunch of questions buzzing in my head and I'm wondering.
- [57:38]
Lindsay Roman
We'Re like, halfway through our question list.
- [57:40]
Eddie McLeod
Technically, could we turn this into a game where it's like, it's like, what. What's a game name Flash, Speed round, pop quiz with Manda. Some buzzy things off top of my head. You can, you can throw in yours if you have. Well, we probably are the same. Do planners hate honeybook or, like, any CRM form? I've heard so many things about. Like, here's what to your point of like, the client, the couple in the luxury space is no longer your client. The planner is your client. Talk to us about the tea on CRMs on that.
- [58:14]
Amanda Worthington
I'll make the flash response as well. So I think the problem is when planners don't like a CRM system, it's actually because whoever's using the CRM system doesn't accurately know how to set it up for proper experience and interface with whoever's using it. So I find my biggest pet peeve is, like, when someone doesn't have it set up so it's easy for me to use. And unfortunately, those are the skill sets that you get when you're like, really obsessed with running a business. Florists, their strengths usually are in artistry, not in business running. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's very normal in the wedding industry. But I think that that's the biggest hurdle that we're jumping over is that people, vendors are not setting their CRM systems up for ease of use. And so by the time it gets to a planner, we're like, jiminy Christmas. Come on, give me less pages, less buttons, like, let's get the show on the road. I don't have a huge problem with Honeybook as long as it's set up to be easy to use. I do say if you're going to choose. I don't think Honeybook is necessary for photographers, if I'm being honest. I think there's so many features that Honeybook has that photographers will never touch. So I don't think it's. If I had to choose one, I don't think Honeybook is what I would even tell photographers to use. I would say Dubsado is my favorite CRM that photographers specifically use. Because you can send me a link to a contract. Anyone can view the link. It's not. There's nothing blocking it. I don't have to put in a code or an email. I can just go view it. I can literally forward the link to my client, not an entire communication portal to my client. And I can just say, like, here's their PDF proposal, here's the link for the contract, sign it and we'll be done. So I do not hate all CRMs. Honeybook, as far as photographers go, Honeybook is my least favorite. Dubsado is my most favorite tea.
- [60:09]
Lindsay Roman
We love this. Wait.
- [60:11]
Eddie McLeod
We ask the, Ask the British Vogue question.
- [60:13]
Lindsay Roman
Oh, yeah, wait, I had a question for you, Manda, because I know, I know there is a, A big, obviously in the luxury, it's who you know. And referrals is probably the number one, like, way to be getting, you know, leads. As a, as a vendor, it's word of mouth and referrals. So being on a preferred vendors list is ideal. But I know that oftentimes, sometimes in the luxury space, you will sometimes still be looking outside of your preferred vendors list for whatever reason. And when you do, especially As a planner, when you are vetting for somebody, very often you are looking for features and you know, ex experience in those features. I have a very, very specific question on the whole pay for feature on Vogue specifically.
- [61:05]
Eddie McLeod
Like that's the main one that at.
- [61:07]
Lindsay Roman
Least the main one that kind of allows that I know of that like really is like a big name, but allows for like a pay for, you know, basically advertisement. But you can say like as seen in Vogue.
- [61:17]
Amanda Worthington
I'm.
- [61:18]
Lindsay Roman
I'm just curious on as a planner, if you were to like, you're looking outside of your preferred vendor list, you go to a photographer and you see.
- [61:27]
Eddie McLeod
Vogue on the top of their ig, what does that.
- [61:31]
Lindsay Roman
I'm. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna stop asking the question. I'm gonna let you answer.
- [61:39]
Amanda Worthington
I.
- [61:40]
Lindsay Roman
Okay.
- [61:41]
Amanda Worthington
I think, I think three years ago I would have said like, yeah, do it get Vogue on your, on your list, you know, or get Vogue on your, on your pinned feed. It is well known now, so I can very quickly go to a photographer's feed. If I see Vogue first off I go and then I click on it. And then generally I can tell by the post obviously who, which Vogue they've been published in. And this isn't just British Vogue and it's not even just the paid versions of it. US Wedding, like Vogue weddings is incredibly exclusive and elite. And we know it's so, so, so hard to get into. Not just because you have to be doing a certain caliber of weddings, but you have to be doing it with the right people and submitted at the right time. I mean, there's incredible people out there who have never been in Vogue. It's, it's really, really, really hard to do. So I also know like a step down from that is like, oh, you've been in Australia Vogue, you've been in India Vogue, you've been in, you know, there's Vogue weddings out there much less hard to get into. So I'm not gonna say that I see that and then I'm like, I'm just like, okay, I know that's not US Vogue. Which really all that tells me is like, okay, you maybe haven't done a celebrity's wedding, right? And that's okay. But maybe if I'm looking for a celebrity photographer, that would be a tell that, okay, you haven't done that. You don't have that, that experience. So you've been featured in Australia Vogue. So I'm like, cool, you've done a really high end wedding. You obviously have really beautiful Work and Australia Vogue took you then a step from that is British Vogue usually. And it's more of the like I'm on a three part paid feature. I think really at that point it doesn't mean anything to a planner in my opinion. It doesn't mean anything else than you paid for a listing in over the Moon. You're doing it for marketing. I can respect that. However much it costs. I think it's great. Does it hold even remotely the same weight as the other Vogues? Absolutely not. It pretty much. I look at it and I go like, oh cool. Good marketing strategy, like, well done. But it doesn't do anything for me as far as like, I think you have more experience. It doesn't. It's not fooling anyone is what I'm kind of.
- [63:55]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [63:55]
Eddie McLeod
Would it almost be more impressive for like you to see like an over the Moon or Elaine or like a, like a, a one that like clearly was a wedding that was submitted and published not paid for at a small but at.
- [64:07]
Lindsay Roman
I mean not that, not that the Lane or Over the Moon is like a smaller publication, but like people think, oh, Vogue, if I can show Vogue. But it's like, yeah, but if it's, if you are paying to be in Vogue, it actually might be better for you to be genuinely published for an actual wedding in a smaller publication at that point.
- [64:25]
Amanda Worthington
Correct. And it's, you know, Vogue again only holds the value that we put on it. So Vogue has decided to devalue the exclusivity of their name, which is a poor decision on Vogue's part, in my opinion. And now it, it genuinely means less. And to your point, if I see that you paid to be in Vogue, and I'm not saying that that doesn't take something you obviously, you know, you've done something to get there. It's not like someone who just started their business four months ago has been asked. But I got asked to be in British Vogue I think in my second year of business. So yeah, I know again I'm. It's all relative. So I'm not saying that someone doesn't have an incredible business if they've been asked to be in British Vogue. But to your point, it does hold more weight to see that, oh, you submitted a wedding and it was so had whatever elements to it or was so extraordinary or beautiful or had people in it that someone, which is very hard to get your work featured nowadays for free. So to say that over the Moon took your wedding for whatever reason it was, that definitely holds more weight. Than you paid to get into a magazine. And I think that that is pretty fair.
- [65:37]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, I. I think. I think even as a photographer, there's an element because, like you said, Lindsay and I were talking about this before, and I was like, I feel like, yes, Vogue has done paid features for several years. Like. Like, more than three years.
- [65:53]
Eddie McLeod
They've been doing more, like, obvious.
- [65:55]
Lindsay Roman
It's become much more of a thing in the last three years. And so there is even a part of me that I will see fellow photographers posting. And I'm like, like, okay, moving on.
- [66:06]
Eddie McLeod
Like, it's just like, I literally got emailed by them, like, a few months ago and I almost did it. And I did it, and I'm this. I'm feeling really great about my decision in that moment. Yeah.
- [66:15]
Amanda Worthington
And that's not. That's a. That's a bummer. It's a bummer for those of us who want to be Vogue. It's a bummer for Vogue because, again, like, it waters. Yes, it waters it down. And now not as many people care about it. Like, I don't think so. You know, and to. Again, taking it a little full circle. Luxury is such a hot word and people so badly, especially in the wedding industry, because we are such an undervalued industry as a whole. So we're, like, desperately trying to prove our value and support our pricing systems so much that we're willing to get this one word on our photos that at the end of the day, like. Like, it doesn't even. What weight does that hold anymore anyways? Like, who's that attracting? So, yeah, it's. It's an interesting situation. I would definitely say in two years, I mean, I would be. You'll see Vogue everywhere.
- [67:12]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah, I'm already seeing it so much more. It is just like, momentum, perspective. Yeah.
- [67:21]
Amanda Worthington
Yep.
- [67:22]
Lindsay Roman
For sure.
- [67:23]
Eddie McLeod
Okay.
- [67:23]
Amanda Worthington
And then what's the new one? Who knows? Go ahead.
- [67:25]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah, literally.
- [67:26]
Eddie McLeod
Sorry, I'm trying to go flash questions, but we're not doing flat. But that's great.
- [67:29]
Lindsay Roman
We all have too much to say.
- [67:30]
Eddie McLeod
I know. We're just yapping if. Because, like, in the luxury industry planner is kind of the client that you're almost marketing to. Like, you mentioned at the beginning, like, half your clients, like, they're not even going to the Instagram feed of the vendor. Is there anything specific. This is a photography specific question. When you're looking at photographers, is there anything in the portfolio or the styling specifically that you look for or that are. Are either, like, good or, like, red flags? Like, do you like seeing a lot of details or installations or if they're only showing like mostly couple photos like, like, is there anything that you would recommend to any photographer that's listening that would help them in like curating their portfolio?
- [68:15]
Amanda Worthington
Yeah, I would say first off, editing style is really, really huge because most high end clients want very like classic, true to color editing. So if you have overly warm or overly green or whatever, you guys know better than I will be a huge red flag if someone has like a really warm edit. That feels really new to me. Like it feels very green to me. Like maybe you've only been in the industry for a year or two and so that's your default editing style. So true to color and really clean, timeless editing is a big bonus. I would say to your point, too many portraits. Usually as a planner, it's not that I necessarily look for, I don't like look for detail shots, but it does show me. Again, this can be client dependent on what they want. I've had a client who is like, all I care about is the photos of me and my wife. And I've had another client who wanted a big production and wanted every single element captured. So it can be very client specific. But I would say you need to be able to show versatility. Is that, Did I just say, is that a word?
- [69:22]
Lindsay Roman
Versatility. But yes, versatility.
- [69:24]
Amanda Worthington
Oh my God.
- [69:26]
Eddie McLeod
I was like, I was like, yeah, Lindsay goes 100%. I was right there with you. I was like, that's a word.
- [69:33]
Amanda Worthington
Oh my God. Okay, versatility. You have to be able to show that. I need to. I as a planner need to be able to see that just so that I know that everything will be captured. You'd be surprised potentially on how bad detail shots can be. There's like a very true art to it. And probably depending on the plan or two, there's some planners that don't design in house. They hire out, but I design in house. So to me, seeing designs captured and couple photos captured is very important to me. So yes, I look for versatility and I look for true to color editing. And I look for me personally, I look for a very like candid approach, like a storytelling approach to photography. That's what I love. And that's really just, just like the clients that I work with really love and I think more and more it's the most popular style of photography. I mean their editorial is still there for a lot of people, but I think kind of like that documentary look and a good range of everything you're doing is what I look for and guest experience. That's the last thing I'll say.
- [70:44]
Lindsay Roman
I love it.
- [70:45]
Eddie McLeod
Amazing.
- [70:45]
Lindsay Roman
She throws it out.
- [70:47]
Amanda Worthington
Done.
- [70:48]
Lindsay Roman
Lips are sealed. No, it was so good. I love it. Do you have any. You have a. I feel like you're rapid firing.
- [70:56]
Eddie McLeod
I think that might have been. I mean, we could keep going, but I also, like, want to respect your time. I think I'm. I think I'm okay.
- [71:02]
Lindsay Roman
You think you've. You've satiated your curiosity at this point in time?
- [71:05]
Eddie McLeod
I think. I think I went through all of the ones that in my mind could be kind of bullet pointed.
- [71:11]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah.
- [71:11]
Eddie McLeod
Rapid fire.
- [71:12]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah. We could sit here for hours, right?
- [71:14]
Eddie McLeod
Exactly.
- [71:16]
Amanda Worthington
Absolutely. I know. This has been the fastest hour of my life for sure.
- [71:19]
Lindsay Roman
I love it. Well, Amanda, you are such an incredible gift to us, to our listeners and just bringing your experience, your skills, your insight. It feels like it's not that often that you really get to like hear from somebody on the inside. You're like spilling all the secrets of here's what we look for, here's what we like, here's what we don't. Here's. You know, it's so helpful.
- [71:40]
Eddie McLeod
It's like getting inside the secret layer. I don't know where that came from.
- [71:44]
Amanda Worthington
But like, love it.
- [71:45]
Eddie McLeod
I don't know.
- [71:46]
Lindsay Roman
Yeah. So we are, we are so grateful for just your time today, for everyone who is now wanting to follow along, continue to learn from you, to watch your beautiful work. All of the things where can they.
- [71:59]
Eddie McLeod
Not send you cold pitch emails or dms? That's what. Yeah.
- [72:02]
Amanda Worthington
For that I. Yes. So you can follow me at me and co creative for my wedding business, for my education business. It's just May and co monthly. I have a membership and then I also have courses for people trying to get in touch with planners and a whole loads of other resources on there. So those are the two. Just so everyone knows, I don't check my DMS very often.
- [72:31]
Lindsay Roman
You're gonna get like so many pitches, or hopefully not pitches, but yeah, just messages.
- [72:38]
Amanda Worthington
Just come chat with me. I think anyone who follows me knows that I really despise surface level conversations. So if you DM me, I want to hear some deep, dark secrets. Okay, perfect.
- [72:50]
Eddie McLeod
That's the great. That's the way to end. Oh, I love it.
- [72:53]
Lindsay Roman
Amanda, thank you so much for being here today.
- [72:55]
Eddie McLeod
You have been incredible.
- [72:56]
Amanda Worthington
Thank you, guys. Thank you so much. Sam.