447: How to Find & Cultivate Good Friends in Adulthood Especially in Seasons of Heartbreak with Toni Collier

Summary

The Heart & Hustle Podcast — Ep. 447
"How to Find & Cultivate Good Friends in Adulthood Especially in Seasons of Heartbreak" with Toni Collier
August 26, 2025

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Episode Overview

This heartfelt episode welcomes Toni Collier, founder of the international women's organization Broken Crayons Still Color, author, and dynamic speaker, to discuss one of adulthood’s greatest challenges: finding and maintaining close, supportive friendships during seasons of pain, heartbreak, and growth. Drawing from her deeply personal journey—particularly a recent season of intense betrayal and loss—Toni shares practical wisdom on building authentic community, nurturing vulnerability, and inviting God and others into your most broken places. This episode is both a blueprint and a balm for anyone longing for richer friendships or struggling to show up for loved ones in crisis.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Toni Wrote "Don’t Try This Alone"

[07:41]

• Toni describes this as her most personal book yet. Unlike her first, which offers expert guidance, this one emerges from the rawest season of her life—her second divorce amid betrayal and deep pain.
• She found herself unable to heal alone and emphasizes that healing amidst heartbreak requires the courage to reach out, even when isolation seems safer.

“This was the hardest time—heartache, heartbreak, betrayal of my whole life…this was the first time in my entire life where I didn’t have the strength to go on, and I had to tap in my people.”
— Toni Collier [09:02]

2. Overcoming the Lie: "I'm Too Broken for Friendship"

[11:15]

• Toni vulnerably shares feeling abandoned by both her (now ex-) husband and her church community, leading to a “church homeless” season.
• She urges listeners not to let their wounds make them believe all people can’t be trusted, and shares how she learned to allow others in, despite fear.

“The people that hurt, betrayed, and caused me pain—they’ve already taken enough. They don’t get to have my belief that there are no trustworthy people out there.”
— Toni Collier [13:09]

3. Practical Ways to Reach Out When You Want to Hide

[15:27]

• Toni advocates living “on the offense, not defense,” cultivating deep relationships before crisis hits.
• She shares the power of a ‘confessional community’—a monthly group dedicated to total honesty and vulnerability.
• When crisis came, her lifeline was ready. She details how she texted her core friends in a moment of need, and how they rallied practically and emotionally.

“I listed out all the people that I believed I could trust... I sent one text message—copy and pasted to all them suckers: This is what’s happening in my life… I have a propensity to hide when I’m in pain. Next thing you know, I’m twerking in the club and lost my whole Christian lil brand!”
— Toni Collier [18:33]

4. Bravery, Healing, and Community

[21:21]

• Healing isn’t about a perfect “soft life,” but cultivating the capacity to hold pain well, make brave choices, and invite others into your story.
• Toni stresses that ongoing healing work prepares you for future trials; the time to build community is before tragedy.

“Healing is about increasing your capacity to hold the pain, to make good decisions when you’re in pain… it’s better this way when you have people that look at your story and say, ‘Ooh, that’s messy— but I’m not going anywhere.’”
— Toni Collier [22:22]

5. The Role of Faith in Friendship and Healing

[24:17]

• Toni clarifies that seeking community is not a substitute for God—it’s an extension of His provision and design for connection.
• Her closest friends not only showed up for her but pointed her back to her faith.

“We’re not talking about humans pretending to have all the strength. No—my friends are deeply in great relationships with Christ, and every step of the way, they pointed me back to the cross.”
— Toni Collier [25:42]

6. Building Community From Scratch (Even If You’re Lonely)

[31:37]

• Toni recounts having no community after her first divorce, and how she (reluctantly at first) began praying for friends.
• She encourages adults to reclaim the childlike bravery required to pursue new friendships and challenges listeners to become the kind of friend they want to attract.

“If you want great friends, you need to be a great friend. If you want healthy friends, be a healthy friend… You attract and sustain who you are.”
— Toni Collier [37:01]

7. The Circles of Friendship & Boundaries

[34:29]

• Drawing from Jesus’ model, Toni discusses concentric circles of intimacy—defining who gets closest to your heart.
• She discusses how shame and pain can hinder vulnerability, and why boundaries matter to sustain healthy relationships.

8. Practical Tips for Making Adult Friendships Work

[40:21]

• Toni, Evie, and Lindsey discuss how friendship in adulthood requires intentionality—putting yourself out there despite potential awkwardness or fear.
• Online groups and courses can foster confessional communities, even among strangers.

“Every course group… transitions into a confessional community… When tragedy hit, [these women] rallied around her family.”
— Toni Collier [43:02]

9. Navigating Broken Trust and Toxic Friendships

[44:14]

• For those nervous after betrayals or red flags, Toni suggests “very yes and very no” lists—a practical, personalized tool for discerning healthy relationships.
• She models directness in communicating boundaries and expectations, showing how relationships can be flexibly redefined rather than abandoned at the first problem.

“We don’t have to throw people away, but we do have to be willing to have hard conversations.”
— Toni Collier [49:13]

10. How to Show Up for a Friend in Crisis

[50:00]

• Toni introduces her concept of "withness"—the power of simply being present and available over offering solutions or spiritual platitudes.
• She affirms that we are all innately created for connection and capable of being good friends, encouraging active listening and presence.

“Sometimes it’s just about presence… my friend Erin—she just sat there and let me cry. I think it’s in us; we just need to take the steps to get better at it.”
— Toni Collier [53:03]

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Notable Quotes

• “Accepting help is a radical act of bravery and courage.” — Toni Collier [13:07]
• “We literally cannot do this life alone. So what makes us think that when we are in a valley, we can do it alone? No, we need people even more.” — Toni Collier [12:44]
• “You attract and sustain who you are. My community grew into a healthy community because I have been on a 10-year healing journey.” — Toni Collier [37:01]
• “God actually becomes bigger when we share our pain in community with other people.” — Toni Collier [28:49]
• “If you want great friends, you need to be a great friend.” — Toni Collier [37:01]

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Memorable Moments

• Toni’s confession of writing her book amid pain, feeling “disqualified” by her second divorce and being “church homeless,” yet bravely choosing to reach out for support [07:41–13:10].
• Practical, cheeky humor about "twerking in the club" as a metaphor for numbing pain and hiding when community is needed most [18:10].
• Describing her daughter’s “surprise flow party” as a testament to the generational impact of chosen community [43:57].
• Honest advice on attracting toxic friendships and doing the personal work to break cycles [37:01].

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [07:41] — Toni discusses the origins and raw honesty of her new book.
• [13:09] — The necessity of not letting broken experiences erode hope for healthy future friendships.
• [15:27] — Building confessional communities and practical outreach in times of crisis.
• [24:17] — Integrating God into your healing and relational journey.
• [31:37] — Praying for friends and the courage to start over.
• [37:01] — Attracting healthy friends by becoming a healthy friend.
• [40:21] — How to actually make adult friendships and foster them in unconventional spaces.
• [49:13] — Setting boundaries and having hard conversations without giving up on friends.
• [50:00] — Practicing “withness": how to support a friend in pain by being present.

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Final Takeaways

• Friendship Requires Bravery: Both to reach out and to receive. Healing and depth come when you step towards, not away from, community in your messiest moments.
• Healthy Relationships Start With You: Become the friend you long for—do your healing, seek growth, and set necessary boundaries.
• God Works Through People: Divine provision often looks like practical presence, not just spiritual assurance.
• Presence Over Perfection: Showing up and simply being with someone is more powerful than offering solutions or clichés.
• Practical Steps—No Fluff: Pray for friends, make yourself available, join intentional communities, and communicate honestly about needs and boundaries.

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Where to Find Toni & Her Book:

• Instagram: @tonijcollier
• Website & resources: tonijcollier.com
• Book: Don’t Try This Alone — available at Target, Walmart, Amazon, and more.

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone wrestling with loneliness, longing for deeper connection, or seeking to support others through seasons of heartbreak. Toni Collier brings unmatched vulnerability, humor, faith, and practical wisdom—reminding us all that hope, healing, and friendship are possible, even after profound pain.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast. We are your hosts, Evie McLeod and Lindsay Roman. Welcome back to the show, friend. We are just so honored to have you here week after week as we chat through life and business and all the things in between. That's a lot of things. Anyways, today's conversation is such a joy. We are so honored to re welcome the incredible Toni Collier back on the Heart Nestle podcast. Now, if you didn't hear her previous episode and you don't know who she is, Toni is the founder of an international women's organization called Broken Still Color and helps women process through brokenness and get to healing and hope. Toni is a speaker host of the still coloring podcast and author of two books, Brave Enough to be Broken and a children's book, Broken Crayons Still Color. Let's also adjust that bio to say she is coming out with her third.

[B]

Book or has already come out by the time this airs.

[A]

Yes. Called don't go alone. Don't, don't.

[B]

Don't try this alone.

[A]

Don't try this alone. I should know that I don't have the note right in front of me. Anyways, Toni is an incredible, incredible person teaching people all over the globes that you can be broken and still worthy or feel unqualified and still be called to do great things.

[B]

And I'm gonna. I'm gonna give you a little. If you're listening to this, which you should be because don't skip the intros. This episode with Tony is like a shot of espresso.

[C]

She.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

I should have said that to her face. I should have.

[C]

Whoa.

[B]

Oh, well, she, like, her energy, her vivaciousness is quite literally like receiving like, the best shot of espresso ever. She is. So. I think I said this at the end of the interview, but, like, she's equally. No, I don't even remember what I said. I said, like, she's equally passionate. Passionate and vivacious as much as full of wisdom. Like, you are gonna get so much out of this episode. Let's actually share what the episode is about. Toni came on to share, obviously about her new book. And I think the crux of the conversation that we focused on was how to find community or how to cultivate really rich, beautiful believer communities in the midst of going through trial and pain and heartbreak. She shares a lot of what brought her to this season of life, what.

[A]

Brought her to write this book.

[B]

And I won't give it away too early, but she was going through arguably the hardest season of her life and in the midst of it, intentionally sought out ways to reach out to her friends and to invite community. When she felt shame, when she felt like she didn't want to be like with people, when she felt like she wanted to be alone and almost like shun people, she intentionally chose the brave thing and took steps to create a powerful, rich community. So if you are listening to this episode and you are lonely, you don't have friends or you feel like the friends that you have right now just aren't those, like rich, deep friends that can go deep with you, this is an incredible episode to listen to. And especially as an incredible episode, if you are going through a season of trial, heartbreak, betrayal, brokenness, pain of any sort, and you're. You're wondering, how can I get through this alone? You can't. And Tony's gonna explain why. It was.

[C]

It was great.

[A]

How do you get through this alive?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's get through this with Toni. So let's welcome Toni back onto the show. All right, let's talk about Pinterest. You know, that beloved site you spend hours upon hours on curating your dream home closet and wedd like it's fun, right? But it's also more than just fun. Did you know that Pinterest can be an invaluable tool for your own business?

[B]

Here's the deal. Pinterest is an extremely powerful search engine that you can leverage to get your brand and business out there. It's a way to reach new audiences that you wouldn't normally reach through other social media. Which is why we wanted to shed light on this popular social platform and share a few reasons why you should be utilizing it now to exponentially grow your business and expand your audience. Like, honestly, it is the number one traffic driver to my business.

[A]

Yes. If you feel lost on where to start, don't worry. We have a whole pin your heart out freebie ready for you to dive into the marketing and help you start the process so you can snag [e-mail] Pinterest. Hey.

[C]

Hey.

[B]

I'm Lindsay Roman.

[A]

And I'm Evie McLeod. And we are family and legacy focused serial entrepreneurs and the founders of the Heart University, a business education company with a mission to help you thrive in your business and life.

[B]

Welcome to our entrepreneur cocktail hour where business and marketing strategies meet faith real talk and raw in life changing conversations.

[A]

At the end of the day, we are all in this together, figuring out how to navigate the ups and downs, the messy and the beautiful and everything in between. This is a community where you can come as you are, get inspired and walk away. Equipment equipped to build a legacy filled life.

[B]

You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast. Toni, welcome to the show. We are so excited to have you on again. You were on the show a few years ago and we are excited to have you and your sassy, wonderful, vivacious energy back.

[C]

Yes, I'm ready. You know how you know I'm excited. I get this little vein thing. For those of you listening, we're sorry, but if you're watching, there's just like a little vein. It's because I have literally powering up like a Pokemon. I'm very excited.

[B]

I literally before we started recording, I was like, Tony, are you like fresh off of like lunch? And you just like have a second win? And she's like, no, this is just me.

[A]

100% caffeine involved. You said no, no caffeine, no carbs.

[C]

Like this is pure energy. Thank you, daddy God for the design. We love it.

[A]

Oh, we are so excited to have you on Tony. Again. For those who maybe didn't listen to your previous interview, which if anyone didn't, it is episod episode 339.

[B]

Go listen.

[A]

Go listen. But if anyone is is fresh new, hasn't heard your previous conversation here, can you kind of reintroduce yourself, give a little synopsis of who you are, what you do, all the things.

[C]

All the things. Okay, so I'm from Texas, which is like the most important thing about me. I actually have a Texas tattoo that goes too far, goes too far every time. But I do live in Georgia when I do not claim it at all. I love Georgia. I'm here with. We have a very peculiar and interesting family style. So it's me, it's almost 11 year old daughter. I don't even want to say that. I could vomit right now. My daughter Dylan. And then I have a three year old son who only runs. That's what he does all day. He just runs so fast. And then we actually have an au pair. Her name is Ana Julia and she lives with us and she helps me with my kids so that I can do what God has purposed me to do, which is this. It's speaking and podcasting and hosting events. I also have a couple of books. We're going to talk about that a little bit more. And yeah, I talk about really, really painful, hard things and how we can hope in the middle of it. And that's what I love. So let's go Deeper. Go home. You know?

[A]

Heck, yeah. That was the perfect segue.

[C]

I know.

[B]

Let's go deep. Go home. We're going deep. Okay, so I think by the time this airs, your new book, Don't Try this Alone, has just recently come out or is coming out around. I don't want to shoe horn. I don't know if that's the term when this will come out, but it's. It's around this time.

[C]

It's happening.

[B]

Okay, so what this. You've been said or you've. I cannot talk today. Wow. I need to consume more coffee. So good or less. You've said that this is your most personal book yet. What about this topic or this book makes it the most personal? And why write this now?

[C]

Absolutely. So I would say my first book, Brave Enough to Be Broken, it felt like it was like this manual. I was speaking as the. An expert, as expert as I can be, you know, And I was telling people, this is how you heal. This is the roadmap. This is how we've done it. This book is. I almost died. Okay. This was a really, really, really hard season. And I'm writing this because I want to prove to everybody that reads it that you can actually still fulfill purpose in your life right in the middle of very painful seasons. And for me, back In September of 2023, I got a call from my now ex Hus. He was being extorted. And there was just so much betrayal and infidelity and there was a video and it just got super weird real fast. And it's weird because I've been in counseling for years before this happened. I had gone through a divorce for years before this happened, and now I was heading towards my second divorce. And for some reason, I don't know if it's the platform, if it's my awareness now of hard things, but this was the hardest time. Heartache, heartbreak, betrayal of my whole entire life. It impacted me in all the ways. I stepped off stage so I had time to heal. So finances were looking rough. There was a moment where I was like, there is no way that a twice divorced, crazy, wild girl from Texas can still do ministry. Like, I had some of those thoughts that I just didn't have for years because I was the expert in the room, right? Like, no, brokenness doesn't discount you. I have a ministry. It's called Broken Crayons still color. I'm like, get back up again. But for some reason this season, it was really hard to get back up by myself. And so this was the first time, I think, in my entire life where I didn't have the strength to go on and I had to tap in my people. And that's what this book is all about, right? Like, don't try this alone. How to heal or how to build deep community when you want to hide from your pain. I just couldn't do it. I had, everything had run out, my energy had run out and I needed people to carry me into this next season. And so this, this book is about that. It is about being carried in really, really difficult seasons when the truth is you want to hide and numb. Good Lord, we talk all about that. I had to stop drinking alcohol. Okay, no self control over here. It was a raw season, it was a personal season. And instead of hiding that, I wrote a book about it. And hopefully the book will help other people in their really, really painful seasons find hope through people again.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

That was, that was ridiculous. No, that was so, that was so good. I, I feel like. Did you, and I'm sure you probably cover this in your book, but I could see the listener who is currently in the thick of a very difficult season, who is either feeling the, the discounted, like I'm too broken. That, you know, feeling and believing that lie and maybe on top of that, or in addition, separately, whatever the, the feeling of I can't rely on anyone, I can't open up to anyone, I don't have anyone. What would you say to the listener who right out the gate, as you're kind of sharing a bit of your story and why you wrote this book, the person who's already feeling like they, they can't get anything from this or they, they don't want to keep listening. Does that make sense?

[C]

Yeah, no, A hundred percent. I, you know, the truth is, the advice that I have to give is the advice that I had that I really didn't choose. If we're just being honest, like, I was deeply betrayed and hurt by my ex husband multiple times and I was deeply hurt and betrayed by the church that we started. I mean, no one reached out to me. I just didn't have a church home. Me and my kids, we were just church homeless all of a sudden. And I started this church and these are the people that I poured into, taught, preached to, stewarded over all the things and then it's radio silence. So I first want to say, like, I know what it feels like to look at people, to think about people who were supposed to be like Jesus with skin on, right? Like my husband, the covenant that we're in the church. The people that I prayed over, stewarded over, taught, and preached to. Like, it's weird. And the reality is we really actually can't do this life alone in any way. If you want to drive a car, someone has to teach you. If you want to get good in the gym, someone has to train you. If you want to heal your good body, someone has to diagnose you and treat you. We literally cannot do this life alone. So what makes us think that when we are in pain, when we're in a valley, that now we can do it alone? No, we need people even more. And again, the truth is, I wanted to numb. I wanted to hide. When you have your business out there, all your business out there, the good, the bad, the ugly. As a. You guys know this, like, having a platform, multiple people. I got messages from people saying, well, your husband wouldn't cheat on you if you didn't have a nanny living in your house. I said, oh, that doesn't actually make any sense at all. You know, like, it's. It's terrible. And the people that hurt, betrayed, and caused me pain, they've already took enough. They've already taken enough. They don't get to have my belief that there actually are people out there that you can't trust. There actually are integral people out there that will not only send you money for your bills because you've had to quit your job for a season. Not only will they furnish your new house because you had to relocate you and your kids and your nanny, but they'll pray for you, they'll stand with you. They'll tell you, that's enough on the wine, sweet girl. They will help you get to the next season. And so for those of you listening, that's like, yeah, but people suck. Yeah, they do. And honestly, so do you. So do all of us. Yeah. What are we willing to lay down, fight through, rebuild, to make sure that we're not going through this stuff alone. And for me, that was, at first, initially by force. My friends were like, no, we're coming over. Okay. We are helping you. We are gonna do this. And then I realized accepting help is a radical act of bravery and courage, and I'm just not doing life without it. And I don't think you should either.

[B]

But that's so good.

[C]

Good to you, girl. I have a life, but I'm always.

[B]

I have a question off of that. Like, when you are going through a heartbreaking season, especially one that does deal with people having already broken your trust. Everything that you just said and reiterate like, we cannot do this alive alone.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think there is a seed of us, even if we want to reject that in the moment of brokenness. I think we all know that at our core, it's like, we know, but what. Are there any practical things that you did to actively get yourself to seek community in a season where you're just like, you want to hide. Or maybe depending on the brokenness, depending on, you know, people that are listening, whatever they're going through, they could feel shame for whatever it was. And maybe that's more of just, like, the conversation with, like, church. And like, that could be a whole other topic that we can maybe ask in a second.

[C]

But.

[B]

But, like, what got you to, like, reach out amidst feeling alone, amidst feeling forgotten, abandoned, all those things.

[C]

Yeah. So I would say it's two things. One happened before my whole entire world fell apart, and then what happened afterwards? I like to say this, and I talk about this in the book. It is better for us to live on the offense and not the defense. Because when you get mature or to a mature place of your faith, you realize, oh, shoot, even saying yes to Jesus, even being a good person, even having good morals does not take away or discount the fact that we're in the ghetto a little bit. Okay? Life is hard. It sucks so bad. And painful things are going to happen to us. When you get to the point where you're like, I'm not a pain junkie, but also, I'm not naive, I'm not ignorant. Like, actually, this is going to be painful. I'm going to have heartache and heartbreak. I'm going to have potentially battle with depression, anxiety. Like, these things are going to happen to me. You start getting yourself ready. Because I had already gone through a divorce, because I had already gone through some really weird church stuff at the very beginning of my Christian walk, I was kind of like, starting to prepare for the future, for anything bad to happen in the future, for grief to come in the future. So what I did on the offense was I joined what's called a confessional community. And I talk about this in the book. And part two of the book is all practical. Like, it is no fluff. It is, do this, don't do this. This is how you do this. So I have a whole chapter all around a confessional community and how to build one. And it's simply a group of seven of us that are meeting every single month for three hours confessing our sucky stuff, our temptations, everything. And it is just as scary as it actually seems. But I've been in that confessional community for almost four years now. So when tragedy hit, I already had a lifeline on speed dial. I already had a group of what the day. Here's. And here's what's so great. God will honor that. He will honor us making sure that we have healthy practices in place. Let me tell you how I was in Nashville, Tennessee, when I got the call from my ex husband that he was being extorted and he had cheated, and there was a video and all this stuff. And down the hallway were my two really, really close friends that are both in my confessional community. We were in a hotel. We had just filmed for a Christian network. And for some reason, the Lord not even for some reason, because he loves me, because he's kind, because he prepares for our pain. He would have two of the people that I have been deeply walking through life with down the hallway. They both live in Texas. I live in Georgia. They were in the room. I get off the phone with my ex husband and I send them a text message. I was like, hey, y' all awake? I got a personal emergency happening right here. And they. They're like, what? What's going on? They're in the room. They would normally be a phone call away, and they were but few steps away and probably also putting their bras on. But you know what I'm saying, like. Like that kind of stuff is us deciding. Like, I know that there's going to be some pain in my life that's going to come. I'm not a pain junkie, but I'm anticipating that this life is broken and people are crazy sometimes. And so I'm going to have a reserve. I'm going to have a team on the sidelines that's waiting for me to tap them in the game. And that's what happened. After the divorce, I started what's called a little note called God, Winks and Freedom, okay? Because it was, trust me, getting out of that marriage. My counselor told me when I decided that my marriage was no longer God honoring, she said, this wasn't the rescue you wanted. It was the one you needed. And I was like, baby, it was. I needed freedom from that because that was a crazy situation, okay? And so I created this little note called Freedom and God Wink. And in that note, I listed out all of the people that I believed I could trust. I was like, who is about to ride this thing until the wheels fall off? I listed all these people out and I Just told them. I sent. Honestly, I sent one text message. I just copy and pasted it to all them suckers. And I was like, this is what's happening in my life and I don't know what I'm going to need. But I know that I have a propensity to hide when I'm in pain. I also have a propensity to numb when I'm in pain. Next thing you know, I'm twerking in the club and I didn't lost all my whole Christian lil brand and. And I just. I was like, I just want y' all to know those women got together and essentially created like a little advisory board for me and did everything from posting a statement online to delivering food to my house, to furnishing my kids rooms, which I could literally go into a whole cry fest from that alone. They rallied together. Strangers. Some of them knew each other, some of them didn't. And they were like, we've got to come and like, rescue Tony. And they text me in days that I didn't want to talk to them. And they called me in moments where I was like, I'm just tired saying the same thing over and over again. And they never left the room no matter how tired I was or responsive I was. And those are all just practical things that we have in the book about, like, how do you tap people in when you just don't want to? Well, just send one text message and let them figure it out. And they will, you know, they really will.

[B]

You mentioned bravery earlier and like both of your answers to that question of just like even pre tragedy happening and then post, you made very active choices.

[A]

Offensive choices, but you know, like on the offensive.

[B]

Oh, I thought you said like offense.

[C]

No.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Wow, that got dark.

[A]

I'm very offended, Tony, by your choices.

[B]

But like, it's like, I don't even know what possessed you in the moment. Probably the holy spirit. But like to send that text to everyone of like, hey, I'm going to want to hide, please. I just say this is like almost like a lifeline of me calling out and saying, like, in this season I'm going to need help. And this is like a formal statement. I mean, maybe you probably didn't say it like that, but like the way that, like that takes so much bravery to even do that.

[C]

Yes, yes. The truth is, again, I have been working on myself for years before this tragedy happened in my life. This is why it's so important for us to be focused in on our healing and our wholeness. Like I tell women, I have a women's course that we do twice a year for eight weeks. And I always tell the women, healing is not about waving a magic wand and everything in your life being perfect. Like, that's what I think. Sometimes we feel like, I'm going on a healing journey. I'm about to be in the soft life. No, you're not, baby. Okay, I want to tell you right now, baby, the soft life is a joke. I don't know what these people are saying, but it's a lie. And so, really, healing is about increasing your capacity to hold the pain, to make good decisions when you're in pain, to think about things that you need when you're in pain. And the only reason why I have the authority to speak into this is because I didn't have that capacity before when hard things happened and I did crazy stuff like drinking a bottle of wine every single night. Like, I didn't have enough capacity. And so it crushed me and pushed me into a space of responding in unhealthy ways. What we want to be doing right now before tragedy hits your life is increasing your capacity to hold the pain that is healing. Doing it with others is an added bonus that will carry you in ways that will make you brave enough to be like, I know these people know every crevice of my life already. They know everything I've done wrong, good, bad, ugly. I've been confessing for three years now, right? Like, I have built up the muscle of learning how to be brave enough to be broken in the face of whatever. And I'm gonna tell you, it's better this way. So much better when you have people that will look at your story and be like, ooh, that's messy. That sucks. That's hard. I'm not going anywhere. I'm not leaving the room. It means so much more, I promise you. So much more.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So good.

[A]

Toni, I would love to hear in this conversation not to, like, at all change the topic. No, I want to hear your thought on how these go together. As a believer in relying on community, and you mentioned, you know, increasing our capacity to hold pain. I'm curious because I agree with what you're saying, but I'm also curious. In all of this, I could hear somebody or perceive somebody hearing this and thinking, okay, I am responsible for holding my pain, and I need to turn to other humans, which are. There is truth in all of that. But I would love to hear, how does God fit into that equation? For the believer who's listening to this yes.

[C]

That's so good. The first thing I want to point out, this was like, a random thought that just popped up when you said, that is, I think we need to break down what holding the pain actually is.

[A]

That's good.

[C]

And for me, in my personal life, holding the pain has so many different departments. Holding the pain for me is when something really hard happens, going straight to the throne of Jesus first. And that's what I did that day when I found out in that hotel room. I put my little phone down and I sat there for a second and I said, lord, I'm not mad, but I'm really disappointed. Please, please cover me and cover my children. That's all I had. Right. I didn't have those scriptures. I didn't. I could not come up with a long, lengthy prayer. Honestly, I know that, like, prayer doesn't have to be all fancy, but I feel like it wasn't even a prayer. It was a conversation. It was like, lord, help I. Even now there, I did say, this is so weird. I'm telling all my business. It sounds so funny. I love it. So James 4. 7, the message version says, yell aloud, no to the enemy. Watch him flee. Whisper a quiet yes to Jesus. He'll be there in no time. I do remember a moment being in that hotel room, and I was like, no, no, enemy. You don't get to have this life. You don't. It was weird. And I look back on it now, and honestly, it was weird. But anyways, so good. But that's the first thing. Like, we're not replacing Jesus here. We are actually utilizing the resources that he's given us to brave this life. Yeah. Which in my opinion, God's like, plan A is humanity. It's us. It is us who spreads the gospel. It is us who reminds people that they can get back up again. It is us. And so we have to go to the source first. So for me, holding the pain means going to Jesus first. What do I need to do? Give me discernment. Help me out. I genuinely believe that the Lord led me to text my friends. There's an emergency. That's happening. This is what's going on. I need help. And they were Jesus with skin on. For me. We're not talking about humans. We're not talking about humans that pretend that they have, like, all the strength that they need on their own. No, these are my friends who have a deeply devoted relationship with Christ. And every single step of the way, they pointed me back to the cross. They were the physical embodiment of who God is, but they weren't God, right? Like, we're not trying to make trauma bonds with people. We're trying to submit to a Savior who loves us all and will also give our friends and our community and our family the discernment on how they should help us too. So God's all involved in this, right? Like, this is what's happening. And actually this is maybe gonna, I don't know, maybe offend some people. I do believe that there's something to be said about people that actually love Jesus are actually surrendered to the Lord and how those friendships sometimes are healthier because there's a North star. There's a moral compass that we're all operating in. My friends aren't like, hey girl, like, get you a couple more shots. Maybe you should switch to tequila. Really get. Yeah, forget that wine, girl. It's gonna take you a little while to get a buzz. Okay, let's get some tequila going on here, right? Like, no. There's a moral compass that my friends have and it is because they're deeply in great relationships with the Lord. And so, yes, God's all up in it. But also throughout this season, I've seen God in this way when things happen because of all the pain and people step into my story. The God winks part of my note is all of the things that God's people did. Like, and it was just, and they didn't even know it. Like sending me things that we, that I prayed for, like little bitty God winks. God was showing me his glory through humanity, through his people. And it was so beautiful. But in sharing those stories. So my first podcast season back, I shared the stories of what people did for me and how God came through through his people. And when I tell you it was my most listened to season ever because I think people want to believe in humanity again. I think people want to trust again. I think people want to hear like, oh, there are actually still good people out there that love Jesus and love his people and actually act like Jesus and aren't all mean, but know every scripture in the Bible. And that's the good part, is that God actually becomes bigger when we share our pain in community with other people. And it's just good.

[A]

So good.

[B]

That's so good.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[C]

Talk about this a whole bunch in the book because obviously if I'm gonna yell at people and say, don't try this alone, I better give them some solutions, you know what I'm saying? Here's what I wanna say. First. First, I've gone through two divorces, which is just crazy and cringy to say out loud. The first divorce, I had nobody. I had moved out from Texas to Georgia. It was just me and my daughter's dad. At the time, I was a part of a church. But when I got divorced, that situation got super weird. So I had no one. I was living with a single mom and her daughter. And then I had my daughter and I was a single mom. We had nothing. All of our clothes is in trash bags. My daughter was too big for her pack and play, but I couldn't even figure out how to get her crib in. It was just. It was like an escape situation from a really toxic and abusive marriage. And I had nothing. No one. My parents were begging me to come back to Texas. I didn't feel like the Lord was calling me there. And I remember the moment when I low key, got a little sassy with the Lord. And I was like, you're gonna have to come through. Like, you're just gonna have to do it. Like, lord, I don't know where you're at. I don't know what your little voice sounds like. Everybody talking about, they hear from you. Come on, show me. And I remember I had a friend named Emily Johnson. She was a brand new friend. I started going to a different church, North Point Community Church. And I remember her telling me that I needed to start praying for friends. And I was like, if that is not the most lame thing I've ever heard in my life. Like, what are you talking about? I'm literally 24 and I'm like, hey, daddy. God. So what's up? First of all. Yeah, like, send me friends. What? It's so weird. It's awkward. And I make this joke in the book that, like, for my daughter, who's 10, almost 11, it's not awkward at all. She literally goes on the playground and 22 seconds later, she comes up to me and she's like, hey, just want to let you know I gave your number out to this girl so we can plan some play dates for the future. First of all, why are you giving my business out? First of all, this is number one. Okay, baby girl. But it's like I watch my daughter on a playground at a jumpy place at school. And they just. They don't care. And I think it's because their shame hadn't settled in. Yeah, I just think they're just like, you'll be my friend. And somewhere along the way, we lost that. We lost the bravery to put ourselves out there so that we could have healthy, good relationships. And here's the truth, friends. Even Jesus had circles. Even Jesus had friendship circles. And the ways that he defined his relationships with people. His inner circle was him and Daddy God. I do call God Daddy God. So if you guys are listening and you're like, what is even happening? It just is what it is, okay? We love it. It's him and the Lord. Intimate circle. The next circle was only three of the disciples. And if you're a Bible scholar listening, you probably just name them out loud. Peter, James, and John. Where we see Jesus bring them in very close is in his most painful, vulnerable moment, the Garden of Gethsemane. He was going to cry out to his father. He was in such distress and anxiety that he was sweating blood. Okay, now when I get anxiety, my pits only sweat. But he was for real in distress. And my pits are sweating right now, actually. And he brought three close, not all 12. And then the 12 disciples and then the masses that he healed. Jesus was a friend to everyone, but they had their rightful place. And what has happened with us is one. And I talk about this in the book One. We jump into stuff haphazardly. We have not actually prayed about it. When's the last time you said, lord, give me healthy relationships, Help me find friends randomly in the grocery store, at church, at the Zumba class. Lord, put people in my life who. Who get it, who understand my pain. And I'm telling y', all, I started praying for this. And the first person the Lord sent me was my friend Erin Eddy. And when I tell you this girl cannot be more opposite than me, and I have a whole chapter on diversity in the book, she's literally like a tiny little blonde, tatted up sleeves, like, platinum blonde hair. If you cannot see me, I'm blackety black, okay? Dark hair, way taller than her. And we met at church in a green room that I snuck in, essentially. And she just was like, hey, you're Tony. I was like, yeah. What's your name? Aaron. We started talking. She's. She had been through divorce. She had a whole ministry just like mine called so Worth Loving. I had a ministry called Broken Ground, Still Color. She had been through this divorce, but then believed in the church again and started working for the like, all these things that's like, oh, dang, God actually cares about this enough to send a person to me that gets it. And her and I journeyed for years and years and years together and still journeying together. I get to see her tonight, literally eight years later. And from then, the Lord just kept bringing them over and over and over again. And the last thing I talk about in the book is that if you want great friends, you need to be a great friend. If you want healthy friends, you need to be a healthy friend. Please, I beg, do not think that you are going to somehow end up in healthy community and you're not healthy. Don't think it, baby, because it's not going to happen. You attract and sustain who you are. My community grew into a healthy community because I have been on a 10 year healing journey. And when I got healthy, I was able to put people in their rightful place in the circles by creating boundaries, identify red flags. That's not going to be a good friend. Figure out, like, I'm an extrovert, everybody's my friend. No, they're not, baby girl. Okay, Stop telling all your business to your co workers. You're going to get fired. HR is going to send you an email. It's over. Shut it down. These are lunch friends. Let it go. Okay, The Facebook people that are gassing you up as you're telling all your business on the Instagrams, like, those are not your friends. Like, but that only comes with you being healthy and you identifying it. And so I know it's a harsh thing to say, but before you get all mad at everybody else else, figure out who you're attracting. Are you attracting toxic people because you yourself are toxic? I don't ask that from a place of condemnation. That is how I ended up with two divorces. Surprise. I was attracting them. And I was attracted to men that were aggressive and crazy. I got cursed out by my dad, so I thought it was normal to get cursed out by a man. I didn't heal those things, so I accepted them.

[B]

I just want to stop talking and let Tony just take the mic for like the full hour and just be like, you were just dropping like quote after mic drop and I'm just like, go pop off Queen.

[C]

Make sure you write those down. Send them to us. Okay? No other producer for anyone who's listening. We love him. Okay. Anyways.

[A]

Oh, so good. Tony.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. I'm. I'm quite literally speechless. Like, you just said so much wisdom.

[C]

And truth that I'm just like, it's Just flowing out. I just read my audiobook. So when I tell you that content is fresh, baby, it's fresh.

[A]

I love it though. Yeah, I. I feel like this isn't discussed enough in especially adulthood. Essentially, how do I make good friends?

[B]

I know.

[C]

It's because we're like, embarrassed a little bit. Like, it's weird.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Hey, dude, my friend, can you imagine like someone coming up in the grocery store and being like, oh my gosh, I love your top so much. Do you have kids? Like, what is your life?

[A]

Do you want to be my friend?

[B]

I think it's because before, before we get to adulthood, we're always in a situation, usually where, where friendship is already innately. Yeah. It's like school, play dates. We go backwards from school. But like even school, college, job, like once you're an adult, it's like groups that are already meant for, like, you know, similar interests.

[A]

Pre built.

[B]

Yeah, pre built. But it's like when you adult and especially if you're like an entrepreneur that works from home in any capacity, and then you don't even have co workers, it's like, and then, and then say you don't go to church or you don't go to the gym, or you don't go to a book club outside, you don't. You. You find yourself in a situation where you're literally at home alone in a silent. And then you complain about not having friends. I mean, okay, let's.

[C]

Hello.

[B]

Sorry, Lindsay, got a little sassy there at the end. No, but it's like, I love what you said. It's like, yeah, you have to be a good friend. But I also love that you. I don't know actually if you. I love. Yes, 100% pray for friends. Like, that's bar none, that will work. But even in that. Put yourself in situations where like, friends could happen. Like, don't, don't pray, don't bring me friends. And then just stay at home and.

[A]

Then lock yourself in your room and then.

[C]

Bye. And you know, we talk about this too. Like the whole extrovert introvert thing, I get it all the time, especially with the women in our course groups. Typically, women join my course groups groups because they're alone and they're going through pain and they're like, I want to have community. And the first call is always the most awkward. It takes like three hours to get people to open up because it's complete strangers. But when I tell you after eight weeks of these people choosing to be brave, literally, like, I'm just going to Come up here and tell these strangers my business. I'm going to believe that everyone's here because they want healing. So there's already this central thread when I tell you all, every course group strangers on the Internet transitions into a confessional community where they're, like, confessing every single month. They have zoom calls. It literally happens every time. We had a girl that unfortunately just passed away last month in one of our courses, and the girls called me, hey, I don't know if you're available. We're having a confessional community call. I hadn't talked to them in a couple months, like, the course was over, but we had this girl. She passed away. We are all coming together to one gift, something to their family. She left a little girl with cerebral palsy. And so it's just. It's a really hard situation, and we're going to the funeral. The last year, these women were strangers. And now when tragedy hit, her life, these complete strangers, I'm talking about from different places of the world. We've had women in London, Africa, all this because it's online. They literally rallied around her family. A stranger. I cannot. This makes me want to cry. I cannot even begin to imagine how impactful that is for the daughter that she left. Yeah. To see that her mama was brave enough to join a rando course group on the Internet bare her soul enough to get to a point where she trusted these women, to meet with them every single month and to continue on a journey of healing and to actually develop friendships. When her mom, when she lost her mama, she had an army of women coming for her. What, because of a single act of bravery, saying, I'm going to join an online community that's all about healing. I'm just going to do it. What? That's the fruit of this. That's what we're trying to get to, is that even the next generation. My daughter, Lord, I don't want to tell my daughter's business, but we just welcomed my daughter into girlhood, and I'm just going to leave it as that. And I remember, for me, y' all probably remember your girlhood moment where you were like, this is crazy and disgusting. I don't know what's going on at all, Okay? I did not want my daughter to feel that. Okay? And my parents did the best they could. They wasn't even happening. Get your stuff and let's get on. Get up and go back to school. But for my daughter, Tuesday night this week, I invited every single woman that has ever played a role in her life at all. To my house. House. And we did what we called a surprise flow party. And each of them got to speak life into her and remind her that God made her good body and that she's not alone. That's the fruit that my kid gets to see. Because I decide that I will not do this life alone. And now she doesn't have to, either. What good news is that from making friends? Yeah. It's amazing. It's changed my life.

[A]

I mean, that's so good.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Amen.

[C]

I love it.

[A]

Okay, I have a question for you, Tony. Just. Just in this, because I feel like it's. Everything that you have said is just so powerful. There's so much truth in it. But I could see somebody listening to this who has also gone through difficult friendships, toxic friendships. They have missed red flags that you. You know, you mentioned you've. You've figured out how to find those and identify those and.

[B]

And they felt betrayed by a friend.

[A]

Yeah. And I could see somebody listening to this being like, I agree. I see the value. I see that, you know, I understand. I need to pray for friends. I need to become that friend. I need to, you know, seek them out. I know I need to do this, but I'm still. I don't trust myself to be able to build healthy friendships. Do you have any, like, thoughts to that person who's like, okay, I get it all, but I'm still scared. And I would love another. Another tool to. To put into my tool belt right now that I think will help cultivate a healthy friend. Like, healthy friendships.

[C]

Yeah. One of the stories that I talk about in the book is the story of Lazarus dying and then being resuscitated. He wasn't resurrected, friends. He was resuscitated because he did eventually die. Okay. All right. So I just think that's so funny. I also want to personally say that. Wow, this is the first time I'm saying this publicly, and now I'm really sweating. Sweet Lord, Daddy, God. Okay, so I started dating. I'm two years removed from my divorce, and I started dating. And it is the ghetto out here just to put that out there. And I keep telling my friends, I'm like, my picker is broken. I literally am. I don't know what the problem is, but I just keep picking them wrong. Okay. I keep picking these men wrong. And I'm so nervous. And I think that's the sentiment you're getting, too. It's like, how am I going to date and be healthy? Like, what do I need to look for like how do I help?

[A]

Yes, yes.

[C]

My really good friend Anastasia. I reached out to her and I was like, help like please, like what do I need to do? How do I do this? And she said, well I actually made a cutie little list and I won't tell you what her list, her name because she kind of cursed a little bit. But it was like a no and a yes list. Like very no and very our brain's.

[A]

Filled in the blank.

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

Great.

[C]

Very no, very yes. And this is so funny, but I actually cried when she sent it to me because it was an outline of for her personally what she was looking for in a guy. And then what she wasn't looking for, like what is just like a non negotiable. Nope. If you're any of these things over here, if you're in the very no category, don't get to have it. I cried because it was another moment when I realized that people save us. She had the wisdom that I didn't have. She equipped me with an entire outline, a blueprint of how to filter some of these thoughts, ideas around dating. It is what I do for you in the book. It's literally the same. I got the format from her, but I don't curse, I promise. But there's in the book a very yes and a very no. We talk about godly friendships and who they are. The first thing is, well, I won't go into all the details, this is such a long chapter. But we talk about how they handle conflict in their other relationships. So having conversations with your friends about how they would handle conflict, it's like a little interview, like a job interview. If you had a conflict with a friend, how do you handle it? For me, I would honestly say I have a detachment issue. I'd be like, bye, I just go find another friend, like I'm going to head out. I talked to my friend Emily about that because I actually did that to her one time. She was like, you just kind of disappeared, fell off the face of the earth. And I was like, yeah, I'm working on like leaning into conflict. We had that conversation. What does conflict look like for you? How do you do that? Well, and for godly friends, their basis should really be the Bible. What happens when you have an ought with your brother? Well, you go straight to them. You don't practice triangulation, which is like a counseling term which is bringing someone else in to ease the pain of having to talk to someone. You go straight to your brother or sister. So we talk about what does it look like for healthy friendship to have conflict? Talk to your brother first, then maybe bring a trusted friend in. There are steps to this. In the book, we also talk about what it looks like to transition people into different circles that have different boundaries. That's discernment. That's praying and asking the Lord, who do I need to bring close into this season and having healthy conversations around it? I tell the story in there about my friend Emily. She was going through a really hard season and I was going through a really hard season. And just the way she was handling it was like, like, whoa, girl, that's a lot. And I just had a transition conversation with her. I said, it feels like you are trauma dumping. You've got some bitterness, you've got some anger built up, and I have some boundaries around that and how we talk. And so for this season, I want to be there for you, but our relationship's going to look a little different. I'm going to transition you to another space in my friendship circles. And now what's even crazier is we went through that season and then I transitioned her back in. We are closer now than we've ever been because the truth is we don't have to throw people away, but we do have to be willing to have hard conversations to create and cultivate healthy friendships. So those are some practical things.

[B]

There it is.

[A]

Hope that was helpful. It just lays out incredible, like crazy.

[C]

This is the best. This truly is the best.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

You're the best. Yeah.

[B]

This is amazing. I have, like, one last. That's not a word last. You can say what you deep, deep question for you. If somebody's listening to this and they've had a friend, like, they're the friend of the person, like a friend of theirs. How many times can I say that and make it more complicated than it really is? They have a friend going through a hard season. What would be your advice for somebody to be a supportive, godly, therefore, you friend in a season where their friend is, like, struggling or going through heartbreak, pain, all the things.

[C]

Okay, so this is chapter 15. The very last chapter of the book is all about how to be a good friend. And one of the things I do in that chapter that honestly my editor thought was a little weird is I affirm the reader. I think we actually have to believe that we're a good friend. I think I did that because I remember in my marriage, that was one of the things that my ex husband said a lot to me. It was a lie. It was That I wasn't a good person, that I wasn't a good friend, that I wasn't nurturing and supportive of my people, and specifically him. He was talking about himself, and so I felt like I needed to affirm people, because I do feel like some of us may just think, like, I don't really know how to be a good friend. Like, I don't know how to show up for people. Like, what's going on? No. Like, can we just. Let's just get something straight here. Like, God created us for connection. Adam did not know, like, what he would have done with a wife. Like, he didn't have, like, a blueprint. Like, all right, Adam, when Eve gets here, all right, baby girl's coming in hot. Okay, you're gonna be asleep at first, but I'm gonna wake you up, like, and here are the things that you need to do to be, like, a good partner to Eve. There wasn't that or that wasn't mentioned in the Bible. And so why. Why wouldn't God, like, teach Adam? I think it's because he designed him that way already. I think there's a reason that when we're watching Instagram videos of, like, a redemption story, we're, like, weeping because we're, like, cheering people on. Like, oh, my gosh, we love a Cinderella story. I think there's a reason why the story arc of movies is, like, evil and then good. And we love the superhero because, like, that's in us. It's in us to want people to thrive and to grow and to be the best versions of themselves. And the truth is, I think we are designed to be a part of redemption. Like, we. If we really are, like, for real, made in the image of God, then that means we actually innately love people. We, like, innately know how to care for people. And you guys know this. Like, even with parenting, like, that little baby comes, and all of a sudden, an instinct just kicks on. Like, nurture, care, take care. Like, no one's taught us. And honestly, they need to prepare us a little bit more for motherhood, if we're being honest. But for some reason, we just. It comes with who we are. And so I think the first thing is us just, like, believing. No, like, God has designed you for community. We are a connected creation. It is in you. And then the next step is picking up resources, like my book picking up or listening to podcasts about friendship. Jenny Allen has an incredible book called Find you'd People, where she talks about this, too. Like, it's like, okay, if I'm made for this. I could possibly get. Get better at this. So what does it look like to practice being active listening? We talk about that in the book, Active listening. What does it actually look like to just sit there and just be with. I use the word withness a lot in the book, and I describe it because people are like, did you spell that wrong? Like, what are you actually talking about? But withness is kind of what God is really good at, is that sometimes he won't solve all of our problems in the moment, but his presence is enough. Like, sometimes, like, it's just about being present. It's about not giving your two cents and slapping a scripture with spiritual bypassing. I talk about spiritual bypassing in the book. Like, all the things. Like, sometimes it's just about presence. Like, I just. I can literally remember the moments where I would just call my friend Erin and she'd be like, hey, are you okay? And then I just would start crying. I had no words, and she just sat there and let me cry. I think it's in us, and I think we just need to take the steps to get better at it. And I think we all are capable to do it because we're designed for it. Like, we're just. It's in us, truly.

[B]

Oh, so good.

[A]

Toni, you are incredible. Such a gift. And this was everything that our listeners and Lindsay and I like. Everything everyone needs. Whether it's exactly today, someone needed to hear this today, or like you said, in the future, like, something. This has built up, something that prepares and establishes for the future season. So thank you just so much for being here, for sharing all of the things for the listeners, for everyone who is now ready to read this book and ready to follow along, to learn from you, to get into your ecosystem. Where can everyone buy your book? Find. Find you all the things?

[C]

Okay, so you can go to Tony J. Collier on everything, really, now that I'm thinking about it. Tony J. Collier. T O N I J C O L l I e r.com Tony J. Collier on Instagram. All the things. The book is called don't try this alone. We are so grateful that almost every outlet has picked up the book. So Target, Walmart, Amazon, all the people have it. Which is, like, even crazy. That's amazing. I know. I'm even crazy. Yeah. It's just crazy to think about that, even. But I will say one of the things that's been super difficult for me is being brave enough to talk about how good I actually believe the book is. It feels weird. I'M like, I don't want to be self promoting. What I will say that Lisa Turker told me. I called her because I was like, I don't know if I'm supposed to write this book. Like, I'm in so much pain. Like, I don't know what to do. And she said, I think people will enjoy this book more because of how raw you are, of course, but because, like, you are literally modeling what it looks like to claw your way back with God's people and still create something really beautiful. And it's like it's changed me in so many ways and. And I genuinely believe that it's the best thing I've ever created, truly. And I think it's because I just didn't do it alone. I had help with this book. I had the Lord, Daddy, God, I had my friends, all these stories of how people came through for me. And so I really do hope you get it. I really do. And I just genuinely believe that it will help in so many ways.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

I believe it.

[B]

Well, we cannot wait to read it. But by the time this comes out, I'm sure it will be all in the world already. So don't try this alone. Alone. Go get it. Go buy it. We'll put the link in the show notes to all of Tony's things. And thank you, Tony, for being here. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and. And your energy. Like, your energy is infectious, but also your wisdom is, like, equally infectious. Yeah, yeah. Okay. But we are just so appreciative of you coming on the show for a second time and we just always love our conversations with you.

[C]

So thank you so much for being here, you guys, so much. Thank you all for having me on. I'm really grateful.