449: Why You May Be Feeling Exhausted in Life: Surrendering Control with Tara Sun

Summary

The Heart & Hustle Podcast

Episode 449: Why You May Be Feeling Exhausted in Life: Surrendering Control with Tara Sun
Date: September 9, 2025
Hosts: Evie McLeod & Lindsey Roman
Guest: Tara Sun

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Episode Overview

In this episode of The Heart & Hustle Podcast, Evie and Lindsey sit down with author, podcaster, and Christian creative Tara Sun to deeply explore the theme of surrender—why striving for control leads to exhaustion, burnout, and anxiety, and how releasing control opens the door to a more peaceful, faith-driven life. With warmth and humor, the conversation dives into the tension between personal ambition and spiritual surrender, how to practically relinquish control, recognizing red flags of control issues, and how busy entrepreneurs can make true space for God.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Meet Tara Sun ([05:00])

• Tara introduces herself: Oregon-based, married to her high school sweetheart, mom of two boys, Christian author, digital artist, and host of the Truth Talks podcast.
• Her mission: “I love helping women do three things: know God's word, love God's word, and live God's word.” — Tara ([05:37])

The Universal Problem of Control ([07:21])

• Tara’s book “Surrender Your Story” was born out of lifelong struggles with control, heightened by a chronic illness diagnosed at age 14.
• She describes how Christians, especially entrepreneurs and moms, often white-knuckle their plans, clashing with biblical surrender.

“We all love to live with such clenched fists over our lives. Meaning, we have our dreams, we have our desires, we have our plans… but… the Bible tells us that God is the one who's in control and that he's sovereign and that he's the one who makes our plans. So how do we live with that tension?” — Tara ([07:50])

When Control Meets Burnout ([10:57])

• Tara details how her illness forced her off her “career girl boss” track and into a place of dependence and humility.
• She highlights how trying to be everything—to family, business, etc.—eventually leads to “feeling distant from God, physical burnout, and overwhelm.”

“Even though a lot of our desires and dreams for our lives may be good… sometimes that still doesn’t mean that's part of God's plan for your life.” — Tara ([12:37])

What Does Surrender Actually Mean? ([13:41])

• Tara bases her framework for surrender on Luke 9:23: Take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow Jesus—daily.
• Surrender is:
  • Being open to suffering & hard things
  • Denying personal control, but not erasing your quirks or desires
  • Actively following where God is leading, step-by-step

“Surrender is not only what he calls us to do, but he laid the example… Jesus made the ultimate surrender for us on the cross.” — Tara ([14:44])

• Practical step: Begin each day with, “Lord, I love you, I surrender to you, I’m gonna follow you today.” ([16:40])
• Surrender is a daily, continual process; not once-and-done.

Surrender vs. Free Will and Decision-Making ([19:43])

• The conversation unpacks how surrender does not mean passivity or never making decisions.
• True surrender is active: consulting God, prayer, and using God-given wisdom, especially for “big moves.”

“When it comes down to those big decisions… that’s when you need to be like, ‘Okay, Lord, I'm not gonna push you out of the equation… This isn't passive.’ It's really active because you're going to Christ and saying you have control. But I also know that I have a part to play in this, too.” — Tara ([21:42])

Overcoming Fear of Surrender ([29:11])

• For entrepreneurs (and anyone), fear often blocks true surrender: What if God's plans hurt my goals or timeline?
• Tara shares honestly about her own anxiety when letting go, especially regarding business, income, and family dreams.

“We really don't understand all the time how big and how good God is. And the fact that when we let go, it’s actually when he has the ability to do the most.” — Tara ([29:34])

• Illustration: White-knuckling a rock vs. open hands. “When you open your hands to God, it’s not even necessarily that he might take that rock… but he has the capacity to give you more.” ([31:09])

Understanding and Trusting God’s Character ([35:15])

• Major insight: Difficulty surrendering often stems from misunderstanding God’s nature—thinking He’s distant, harsh, or not good.

“When we really, really struggle to surrender to God, it’s because we have a twisted view of His character.” — Lindsey ([35:16])

• Surrender is easier when we grow in relationship and see God’s true goodness.

Making Space for God in a Busy Life ([38:21])

• Tara’s upcoming book, "Overbooked and Overwhelmed," tackles the struggle of busyness and feeling too maxed out to spend time with God.
• The key? Recognizing God’s presence is always available—our task is to remove distractions and idols.

"It's our perception of God's presence that needs to be reoriented, not God's presence Himself. He is always with us." — Tara ([39:36])

• Practical advice: Evaluate your “yes” and “no” list. Saying no is not just healthy—it’s biblical and can be deeply liberating.

Biblical Rest, Hustle Culture, & Margin ([42:55])

• Slowing down creates space to commune with God and hear Him.
• “When we have that busyness, it's like we… don't even have time to hear from God.” — Lindsey ([43:53])
• Tara shares her dad’s analogy: Start a “phone call” with God in the morning—don’t “hang up” until bedtime. Fill your day with ongoing, “whisper prayers.” ([45:23])

Manifestation vs. Christian Surrender ([49:53])

• The hosts and Tara break down why secular manifestation is the opposite of biblical surrender.
• Manifestation centers on self as the ultimate power, rather than trusting God’s sovereignty.

“Manifestation is so damaging. I've fallen into it myself as a Christian… but if something does not go the way that I want it to, how do I respond? Because that shows… maybe we need a little more surrender, a little more trust of God.” — Tara ([50:34])

• Key takeaway: Healthy ambition and “girl boss” energy can work—if rooted in stewardship and constant surrender, NOT self-idolization.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You don’t have to be the problem and the solution.” — Lindsey ([56:31])
• Tara’s dad’s advice: “Start a phone call with God in the morning and hang up when you go to bed, but not anytime in between.” ([45:23])
• Candyland/Shoots and Ladders analogy for God’s “castle” and life’s many possible routes—God is with us, even if we don’t pick the “perfect” path. ([26:33])
• Tara normalizing daily struggles: “If you make the wrong move, the Lord will let you know.” ([24:10])

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Practical Takeaways

For listeners feeling exhausted by life’s demands:

• Leave intentional margin in your schedule. Even 10 minutes of breathing space can remind you of your dependence on God. ([57:51])
• Practice surrender daily (“Lord, I surrender to you today…”).
• Stay in constant conversation with God—even whisper prayers while doing ordinary tasks.
• Reorient your idea of “success” and “accomplishment”—God’s metrics are different.
• Evaluate what you’re saying “yes” and “no” to; saying no can be deeply freeing.
• Know that surrender is not passivity—use your God-given gifts, consult Him prayerfully, and move forward with trust.
• When striving or hustle becomes a form of self-worship or panic, pause, and lay it down again.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:00] – Tara's background and personal intro
• [07:21] – Inspiration for “Surrender Your Story”
• [10:57] – Realizing the cost of control
• [13:41] – Biblical blueprint of surrender (Luke 9:23)
• [19:43] – Free will vs. surrender
• [24:10] – Perfectionism & red flags in control issues
• [29:11] – The fear of surrender (esp. for entrepreneurs)
• [35:15] – Understanding God’s character to deepen trust
• [38:21] – How to connect with God in a busy season (“Overbooked and Overwhelmed”)
• [42:55] – Margin, rest, and making space for God
• [49:53] – Manifestation, ambition, and surrender
• [57:51] – Tara’s practical next step: leave margin

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Book Recommendations

• Habits of the Household by Justin Whitmel Earley ([60:00])
• Blessed Are the Spiraling by Levi Lusko ([60:19])

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Tara’s Books & Resources

• Surrender Your Story: Available now wherever books are sold ([61:18])
• Overbooked and Overwhelmed: Releases August 5, 2025; available for preorder ([61:18])
• Free resources at surrenderyourstory.com

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The Heart & Hustle Podcast Takeaway

This episode is a memorable, laughter-filled, yet deeply challenging exploration of the intersection of faith, work, and surrender for Christian women and entrepreneurs. Tara Sun offers not just theological encouragement, but highly relatable, actionable tools to step out of striving and into the peace of true dependence on God—one day at a time.

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“You don’t have to be at all and do it all, because you have the power of Jesus through you. He’s the one who empowers you to do it all, because he has already done it all.” — Tara Sun ([26:24])

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast. We are your hosts, Evie McLeod and Lindsay Roman. Welcome back to the show, my friend. Today we have a treat for you. We got to talk to the incredible Tara Sun. She was just lit on fire like holy spirit filled. We were like having the best girl chat conversation. Now let's talk about who Tara sun is through the truth talks with Tara podcast, her Instagram community, and other resources. Tara sun passionately teaches women of all ages how to know, love, and live God's word for themselves. And she shows how to break down God's word into understandable pieces while also adding an artistic flair through her digital art. Tara's married to her high school sweetheart, Michael, and is a mom to their sweetest new addition, Hunter.

[B]

I love it.

[C]

Yeah. Today's conversation with Tara was beautiful. We, we covered the conversation of surrender and what it looks like to give up control. And Tara just broke down so beautifully, both her journey with this, but also how not only does, like, white knuckling our life lead to exhaustion, to burnout, to stress anxiety in our life, but it's also, I mean, if you could tell by those fruit of that, it's just not what God has for us. And she really breaks down so beautifully. What it looks like to surrender to God, to give up control, what that practically means some tangible and practical steps to implement that. What it looks like, like, why we may struggle with that. Some even like some red flags to notice in your life of areas or things that you start to feel or think or notice to be like, oh, actually, even if I thought I wasn't struggling with control, I may be actually struggling with control. And we even broke down within that. You know, how giving up control ties in with understanding the character of God. And therefore, how do we make space for God as busy people to spend time with him? Yeah, to get to know him, to understand his character, to spend time with him as busy entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs, as mothers, as, you know, just human beings in the 21st century. What does it look like? And how can we practically make space for God in our life? It was such a powerful conversation. There's so much within that, so much nuance that we talked about. There were some powerful things in there about like relationship with God, communication with God and what that looks like. She has some beautiful analogies in there that you, I guarantee, will take and walk with for years of your life. So I would encourage, do not skip this episode. Grab your favorite beverage. Let's sit down and chat with Tara Sun. Let me guess right about now, you may feel a little defeated in the productivity department. No matter how hard you try, you just can't seem to cross anything off your to do list. Your mind is moving a million miles per hour, but focusing on completing one little task feels impossible because of the endless day to day distractions. Hey, we are all in the same boat. There are so many distractions in entrepreneurship, let alone life itself. Being productive is an age old struggle now. While it can feel hopeless at times, trying so hard to get everything done, there is hope you can be more productive and find freedom and more time in your life and stop from spinning your wheels. I am here to tell you it is possible. We are here to help you, which is why Lindsay and I are sharing some of our favorite ways to boost your productivity and find freedom in your workday. Head to theheartuniversity.com productivity for a freebie on our favorite ways to better manage our time and actually end the day feeling good about what we accomplished.

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hey hey.

[A]

I'm Lindsay Roman.

[B]

And I'm Evie McLeod and we are.

[C]

Family and legacy focused serial entrepreneurs and the founders of the Hart University, a business education company with a mission to help you thrive in your business and life.

[A]

Welcome to our Entrepreneur Cocktail hour where business and marketing strategies meet faith, real talk and raw in life changing conversations.

[C]

At the end of the day, we are all in this together, figuring out how to navigate the ups and downs, the messy and the beautiful and everything in between. This is a community where you can come as you are, get inspired and walk away equipped to build a legacy filled life.

[A]

You're listening to the Heart and Hustle Podcast. Tara welcome to the Heart and Hustle Podcast. We are so excited to have you on today.

[B]

Thank you so much friends. This has already been so much fun. I mean we talked so much before we even hit record and I feel like maybe we should have recorded all of that. You guys are so much fun already.

[A]

Oh my gosh. Well, you're gonna fit right in on this show, Lindsey.

[C]

Like crawling around on the floor.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Trying to like meth.

[A]

Shoving cashews in my face right before we hit record.

[C]

We're just friends already.

[A]

We're having a good company. We cannot wait to introduce you to our listeners. So I guess before we even get into today's topic, can you introduce yourself? Who you are, what you're about, all the things. Who is Tara Sutton?

[B]

Yes. Well, so I'm Tara Sun. Fun fact, sun is my middle name, which a lot of people don't know. But that's I Don't know, kind of a weird anecdote, but I live in Oregon. I'm married to my high school sweetheart. We have been together for like, ooh, eight years, nine years, I think. Trying to do the math anyway. A long time. Been married like four and a half. We have two boys, so we have a three year old and a three month old. You can do the math. We got pregnant super early. We're like, what Lord? Like, hello. So. But we're in it. We have two boys in our like mid 20s. Never thought we would ever have that a part of our story, but we're so thankful. It's wild and wonderful over here. It's kind of like our home life. And then besides that, I have the honor and privilege of getting to like write books for women. Get to write like Christian living books and inspire them. Just I love helping women do like three things and that's know God's word, love God's word and live God's Word. Because I really think it's like a trickle effect just in everyday life, whether that's motherhood or in business or just like an everyday mundane things. I also have my own podcast called Truth Talks and that's like every week. And we get to do kind of the same thing thing, super conversational. Get to talk to people, business leaders, authors, all the fun things. And yeah, I think that's all about me. Yeah. Yourself. Like, how do I convince myself in like 20 seconds?

[C]

How do I simplify everything about me? An entire human life with multiple lives within that life. Right.

[A]

Well, you are, you are the perfect fit for our show. And we. I. I think everything that you just has just said will resonate so wholeheartedly with our listeners. So I can't wait.

[B]

Yeah. For today's conversation with you.

[A]

The. The vibes are present. We're girl. We're girl vibing.

[C]

The vibes are vibe.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know.

[B]

The God vibes are vibes. Yes. I always feel kind of funny when I say vibes, but I'm like, I feel like people understand.

[C]

I think it's. It's Gen Z. Yeah.

[A]

It's just, it's current modern trend culture. I wonder if that word will ever. It probably will go away.

[B]

Yeah, probably.

[A]

Yeah, probably.

[C]

Anyways, the Vibes are here today, at least.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Tara, I would love if we. If you're willing to just like, let's dive in the deep end and talk a little bit about your book that you released in 2022, which is called Surrender your story. Right.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Can you Share a little bit about like why you wrote that book and what that, I guess what that book is about too for sure.

[B]

Actually now that I'm thinking It was 2023 because my son and I'm. I'm even forgetting the dates my son was born. This is the crazy timeline and I'm of maybe give you more than you want, but. So my son was born six days before I turned my book into my publisher for editing and he was born in 2022 and then it came out the next year anyway, so it's been out for a couple years now, 2023. It's called surrender your story and the subtitle is Ditch the myth of control and discover freedom in trusting God. So it's a little bit of a mouthful, but I really wrote this book out of a place of not only just seeing that the world. It's just a universal problem of we all love to live. I'm doing this with my hands, so if you can't see me. We all love to live with such clenched fists over our lives. Meaning we have our dreams, we have our desires, we have our plans. We don't really want to let them go. But there's this huge tension, especially as Christians, where we realize that the Bible tells us that God is the one who's in control and that he's sovereign and that he's the one who makes our plan. So how do we live with that tension? And so I wrote this book because I've seen this thread throughout my entire life. I think we all have a common thread of a struggle or something that God has taught us. And for me, that was realizing, okay, I've known Jesus for my whole life and yet I really struggle with wanting to be in the driver's seat and have the reins. And a big moment in my life that inspired this book was when I was around 14, I was diagnosed with a really intense chronic illness that sent my whole life a completely different direction. Like, I had all these dreams of going to medical school and being super career driven oriented kind of girl bossing. And then I got this illness that literally sent me in bed for weeks and months and changed the trajectory of being able to like go to school and what that looked like in relationships. And through that, the Lord taught me like, hey, and I really think, not that he gave me this illness on purpose, but for a purpose, if that makes sense. Because he's like, you really need to be humbled. And he used that to teach me, like, hey, this is maybe not a part of your story, but I am still working things out in your story. So I wrote this book to encourage the women who maybe feel like, where are you, God? Do you care? Where do my dreams and expectations, where do they line up with what you have for my life? What do we do when the world keeps telling us the world is in social media and self help books and all these things? What do we do when they're telling us to girl boss to manifest? Because we may think that that's just a worldly secular idea. But I don't know about you guys, but I feel like I've also believed that in my life. So that's really where it's come from.

[A]

I cannot wait to get into this conversation. Oh my gosh. Okay, I guess to start off we'll get to the manifestation and all of that. I can't wait. But you procreate, cannot talk. Wow. That's another thing about me. I stumble over my words a lot and then I have to just like.

[C]

The brain goes faster than the mouth down.

[A]

Yes, exactly. You've described yourself, Tara, as a self proclaimed control freak, which I feel like is. Or in the past at least. I feel like that's very relatable. Especially I feel like to business owners. I feel like, especially when it comes to just like maybe it's because we control.

[C]

We're the boss.

[A]

Yeah, we're the boss. And so it's like that. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm curious, what was the moment or, or season that you realized that control wasn't just like exhausting but you, you had like an actual encounter with, with God in your life? It was it when you were diagnosed. Like is that kind of the answer or like is there another kind of like unpacking of that?

[B]

Yeah. Well, I think you nailed it. Like control isn't just exhausting, it's actually like holding us back from not only what God has for us in life, but just like our day to day responsibilities, whether that's in business, in ministry, as a mom, as a wife, like whatever that looks like. But I think so many of us just keep trucking with control, like you said, whether, like especially business owners. But I'm a mom now and I'm realizing this to a huge, like an even greater level where especially as women, we feel like we need to be at all. Right. Like we need to wear all the hats. Like if you're a working mom or a wife, you're also taking care of the home, you're taking care of your business, you're leading a team. You feel like, you have to do all these things. And maybe for a while, and I've seen this in my life, maybe for a while, you feel like you can maintain that pace, but after a certain amount of time, you're going to start to feel the effects. And that's not only spiritual, where you realize, oh, I feel, like, distant from God. Or you feel the effects of physical burnout and overwhelm and all these things. But of course, I think it was that moment of illness where I realized, whoa. Like, I had these good plans, God, of, like, going to school and, like, making a living and doing all these things. And yet now I have this literal, like, crutch to bear. I mean, not literally, but kind of like, I, like, had to go through all this physical and occupational therapy. Like, I had a disability for a time that really hindered me from living out my plans for my life. And so that was a big moment. But I think also I got finally. I mean, just through all of that, still got accepted into a really great college, was like, okay, Laura, we're gonna get back on track with my plans. Like, I'm feeling better. I'm gonna get back on track. And then I had this crazy encounter with the Lord where he's like, you're not even supposed to be going to this school, pursuing this career. Never thought ministry or anything creative that I've been doing in my life would be a part of the plan. And so I think a lot of that. A lot of these moments where I'm like, wait, I. I was just met with the reality that even though a lot of our desires and dreams for our lives may be good, as in, like, not sinful. Right. Sometimes that still doesn mean that's part of God's plan for your life.

[C]

So.

[B]

That was huge.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

That's so good.

[A]

Really good.

[C]

What, Tara, would you say in all of this? Because obviously we're. We're talking about, like, surrendering control and that trying to, you know, tight fist our life is not just exhausting, but, like, it's. It's not what God has for us. It's not the way that we're supposed to live with him. Can I ask you what. What does that mean to you? And what would you say to the listener who's like, oh, my gosh, I'm resonating with everything. Like, the burnout, the exhaustion, I'm feeling far from God. I'm feeling, like, stressed, anxious, whatever that is. But they're like, where do I even begin with process?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, the process of surrendering control. Like what does that look like even? Just like an overview or one tip or something to kind of like interject in here.

[B]

So this book is based around Luke 9:23. And it's actually this verse is in a couple of the gospels too. But I love the way that Luke 9:23 talks about it. It's Jesus talking to his disciples. Like if we're looking at the context of it, and this is before Jesus died. So that's an important thing to kind of keep in the back of your mind right now too. But Jesus was speaking to his disciples in Luke 9 and he was talking about, I mean, there's this verse that we all know. He says, if you want to follow me, if you want to be my disciples, you have to do three things. Take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow me. So I unpacked that in the book and just to give you a quick synopsis, taking up your cross, I mean, people in that context in Jesus time knew that meant so this was the most brutal, humiliating way to die. And so a lot of people realize that that was like a death. And Jesus wasn't necessarily talking about physical death, although we know that's a reality. But he was saying you need to be prepared to suffer. Like, life is not going to be sunshine and rainbows. There are going to be hard things. So if you want to follow me, you have to be prepared for that, which I honestly think is a grace from God to be like, hey, prepare, like, know that it's coming, but know that I'm still with you in that. So that was the first thing. The second thing, which is this whole idea of control and releasing it is denying yourself. And in some translations it says die to yourself. And that is the hardest pill to swallow. And again, not necessarily a literal thing, but Jesus is saying, you need to release that personal control over your life. Denying yourself doesn't mean like throwing your own personality and your, your dreams and your desires and your loves and your quirks and all the beautiful things that God has made you in and mixed you in. He's not saying that. He's saying, I need you to live open handed and I need you to be willing and receptive to the detours and the things that I may have that may interrupt your life's plans. Right? And then the last thing is follow me. And that's the idea of. I love thinking about it as like following the leader. You know that game that used to play in preschool and kindergarten. Like you're walking in the steps that Jesus has already walked for you. So just like that whole overview reminds me that this is literally the way that Jesus created us to live. Like, surrender is not only what he calls us to do, but he laid the example. I mean, we're recording this around Easter time, but of course we can remember this truth all year round that Jesus made the ultimate surrender for us on the cross. And so first of all, I think I would probably say that too for someone listening, being like, I'm tired, I'm exhausted, the control is eating away at me. I know that I need to do this, but I don't know how or it's hard because girl, I get you. This is one of the hardest things. So I would say two things. Number one, I would say that Jesus has already paved the path for you so you don't have to like rework the system or make a new blueprint because he's already done that for you. And number two, I would say that it's a day by day thing. Another word that he says in there that I forgot to mention is that he says you have to do this daily. Okay, so there's new morning mercies. This is an everyday process. You don't have to feel like you need to have it figured out every single day. And so a huge practical that I would say is like, wake up every morning, my dad taught me this and just pray, Lord, I love you, I surrender to you. I'm gonna follow you today. And you try and aim for that today in God's grace, and then you do it the next day. And that may sound exhausting to someone who wants just to have it laid out and figured out, but if you only needed to depend on God once in your life and then be done, where would the need for God every day be?

[C]

That's so good.

[B]

I don't know if that's extremely practical, but I feel like that's just good reminders because this can feel exhausting when we're already exhausted, you know? Yeah.

[A]

Oh, that's a good reminder. I'm, I'm sitting here thinking you, you mentioned some a little bit in that answer of like surrendering to God doesn't mean that you have to cease to exist or like your quirks, your loves, your desires, like you have to sacrifice them all in the way that like, oh, you're going to be a monk and you can no longer live like anything. Like, like I almost like the, the I don't know what the phrasing people use to say this is but like surrendering to God or like believing In God's mean means you have to like, be intentionally, like, like a martyr. Is that what people, like, what's the phrasing that people say? Maybe I'm scrambling here. I'm like, there's like a phrase that people say when you. When almost like, like you have to deny, like, all the good things in life in order to be a Christian. Does that make sense? Sense. There's like a phrase. Okay, it's fine. I'll just keep going. How do you, I guess, reconcile like, Like, I almost feel like sometimes when. Sorry, I'm like spiraling because I'm laughing.

[C]

The amount of times you're saying, like.

[A]

Right now, but continue like the, the. The like 40 year old bro that like just tuned into this podcast that loves to judge women is like, you're.

[C]

Counting the likes also. It's because your mind is trying to catch up and, like, give words.

[A]

There's a question in here that I'm.

[B]

Getting to where you're going. Okay, she's. She's with me.

[C]

Tara's tracking.

[B]

I got you.

[A]

Let me pause now. Now the thought is like, leaving. No, reign it in, Lindsay. Reign it in, Lord. It's because the question I'm asking is not on this list, but it's a good one. Okay, how do you reconcile the fact that, like, God gives us free will, he loves our desires, and oftentimes I feel like when we want him, like, when we're like, okay, God, I'm surrendering. Tell me what to do. Sometimes I find in that moment he's like, well, what do you want to do? He gives us free will. In those moments, how do you almost consolidate? Not consolidate, reconcile, reconcile. Almost the balance or the kind of contradiction of. He calls us to surrender, but then he also gives us free will. And he loves dreaming and planning with.

[B]

Us in that way. Yeah, no, there's a chapter in my book all about, like, decision making about, like, okay, Lord, there's this tension because you have given me the free will of living. So it. Surrender. Okay, first of all, let's just like, set the record straight. Surrender is not just like sitting on my hands and saying, okay, Lord, I'm just gonna, like, wait until like a lightning bolt strikes and you tell me audibly to do something. Because that would be sluggish. That would be a sloth. I mean, we're told that in proverbs that would be us just like, like not being obedient and faithful and stewarding the life we've been given. But there is this tension and we're Told this in Proverbs, we're told this in Psalms, you know, in all of our ways, acknowledge Jesus, right? So he's not saying to not do anything, but it's like in all of the ways that you live your life and you go about your days, not just like, hey, a cursory glance to God, but it's like, I'm gonna consult the Word, I'm gonna consult you in prayer. And I think so much and I'm speaking from my entrepreneurial, creative heart that I want to and that, that self proclaimed control freak that I so often want to make a move without praying first because we're so rushed, right? And realizing that there's not very many things in life that are that time sensitive. Meaning, like, I have to make a decision so quickly. I can take a minute, I can take a day, I can take a business day and be like, okay Lord, like what do you want? Like, let's think this through logically. Let's use the brain you've given me to think through things. Well, so I think that's a big thing there too, is that it's not that we do not, not make decisions and say like, okay Lord, like, you tell me what to make for breakfast today. Like, just like, use the brain that God has given you in faithfulness and be like, you know, I'm gonna do the best thing that I know how because I'm in the Word, because I'm in prayer. But I think especially when it comes down to those big decisions, whether it's a big career move, like in my life, with school or in relationship, or if you have an illness or something like that, whatever it is, some of those bigger things can be harder to console. But that's when you need to be like, okay Lord, I'm not gonna push you out equation when it comes to this. I'm going to consult what your word says about it. That's how you live in surrender. It's hand in hand with action. It's actually not passive, it's really active because you're going to Christ and saying you have control. But I also know that I have a part to play in this too. So how can I meet you in that? If that makes sense?

[A]

That's really good.

[C]

I just was reminded of the verse about, we are the body of Christ, we are the hands and feet of Christ, and how like when we are walking with him, when we are connected to the vine, yet another like scriptural reference, like, we, our job is to be connected to the vine first and foremost. In order to produce fruit. And so it's not one of those things that like you're saying, Tara, our job is to be surrendered and connected to the source, but we also have a responsibility to enact the will of God on earth to not only, you know, surrender our life to him, but then be willing to live our life for Him. So it's a balance of, you know, we do have a role to play. We are the hands and feet, we are the vine that is ultimately, you know, producing the fruit through him. We couldn't do it without him. But there is something too in all of this. It's very easy to be like, oh, surrender. And like you said, to get that twisted and be like, oh, that means we sit on our hands or we don't do anything, or we're paralyzed with almost this fear of doing something wrong. It's like, no, it's, it's not. What would you, what would you say though, in that, that context to the person who maybe it does feel a little bit more of the, like I have experienced or I am currently experiencing the exhaustion of the tight fisted grasp and the control in my life and my family, my marriage, my motherhood, my business, whatever that is. And they're like, okay, I, I want, I want to live a surrendered life. But the thought of, I guess falling back into like taking the reins again scares them. Do you have any thoughts in that of like, here's, here's an encouragement for you, like maybe red flags to look out for or something like that. Like, here's just a thought. If you're really scared of like taking charge again and crashing the car again.

[A]

Because it's not fun, what would you.

[C]

Say to that person?

[B]

I think the first thing I would say because I've been there, I'm still there, is, it's more of like a, like a mental reminder for me to be like, okay, I can live like open handed, but also, you know, do what God has for me because, you know, I, there's nothing wrong with, you know, like, I mean, girl bossing. Of course there's a manifestation aspect. But again, nothing wrong with being very organized and being very on top of it. I think a lot of life demands, but I think for me an encouragement that I would also extend to someone listening that feels that way is just like, it's more, I think of a mental and spiritual reality that we have to remember. So it's more like, okay, I'm scared, but I just have to repeat to myself that God is in control and that he has Me. And that if I mess up again and I try to take the reins, that I know that God is going to remind me that the Holy Spirit's a huge part in the book, too. The Holy Spirit is the one that's working in you. You have those nudges. You have those people in your life that I know will. Will bring you back to the reality. And so I just think there's a safety in just even mentally reminding yourself that God is in control and that it's okay if you make a move. I think so many times in that scenario, we're paralyzed to even make a move, like you said, because we're afraid of making the wrong move. But I have so much confidence in Scripture and the fact that if we make the wrong move, the Lord will let us know. Right. And I think there's also just that perfectionism aspect. I don't necessarily talk about this in the book, but I'm just thinking of it now that we as women just really want to be perfect. We want to make sure that it's right. We want to make sure that it's right for everyone else. So we're afraid to even do something. I mean, I told my husband the other day, I'm also freshly postpartum, but I'm like, I cannot make a decision. I'm like, I mentally cannot do this, so I'm not going to do anything. And he's like, that's silly. He's like, let's talk this through. I mean, of course he's compassionate, but, I mean, it's true, Right. Where it's like, okay, like, we can do this. It doesn't have to be perfect. Right. Just do the next. Next right thing. I get it, though. I get it. And I think sometimes, though, we just need to take the pressure off ourselves when we're so exhausted like that. Like, yeah. This is the whole idea of the book and the whole idea of the gospel is that you don't have to be at all and do it all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you have the power of Jesus through you. He's the one who empowers you to do it all. Because he has already done it all. Yeah.

[C]

That is so good.

[A]

I feel I'm getting this image as we're talking of, like, almost like a. Like a maze, kind of like Candyland, if Candyland had, like, a bunch of different routes to the castle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I feel like sometimes we. I don't know. I just made that up. You get the image, though. Like, we think, like, okay, God is like, in this One lane. And if I. If I take the wrong. If I do anything wrong and step outside of it, or. Or, like, even, like, choose the different path. And I feel like, kind of similar to what you said of, like, especially when it does come to those bigger life scenarios where it's like, okay, when. When do I start having kids? God, is this, like, one route good and then one route bad? Or, okay, I feel like you're calling us to move, but.

[B]

But.

[A]

Or is that just me? Like, I feel like we have so many things where it's like, we feel like one of the routes to the castle is purely God and all others are evil and we are now no longer. And it's like, no, God doesn't leave us just because you make a decision. It's like, he is. When you're walking with him, Him. He's in it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And obviously, I love what you said of, like, if. If you make a choice that wasn't maybe what God had for you in that moment, like, he is still sovereign in your life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like, he's still there. And I. I just love what you said in that moment. I don't know if the Candyland picture is helping anybody. It helped me.

[C]

What am I picturing? Shoots and ladders and like, oh, that's probably a better. And I'm. I'm, like, envisioning, like, sometimes you, like, go down a slide or up a ladder or whatever.

[A]

Candyland actually does that too, based on the probably.

[B]

I don't know. I haven't played them in a night with Hunter and Michael.

[C]

Wait, really?

[B]

How fitting.

[A]

Wow. That's. God.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I literally can't tell you the last time I've played that game, so.

[B]

Same. But then we got it from my son, who's three and loves board games. Doesn't, like, totally know how to play it, but he loves it.

[C]

He's so enthusiastic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. I. I want to ask almost, like, about the fear of surrender. Especially, I feel like, for our entrepreneurs who are, like, very much in, like, the. The girl boss. Like, I don't want to work for someone else. I want to do, like, I want. I became an entrepreneur to have time, freedom, and to make my own schedule or whatever, provide for my family. Ye. All are good things. But I. And not even I think this could speak to people that aren't entrepreneurs as well. But I almost want to speak you to speak on, like, the fear of surrender that if. If I let go of the control of my choices and, like, truly, like, say, God, I want you in to my Life, like, I want, I want you to dictate and like almost let him take the reins. I think people sometimes fear, well, what if he takes me in a direction I don't love and now like, I'm like, I'm no longer in control and now I hate my life or I hate the direction he took me in. What are your thoughts on that?

[B]

No, that's huge. What's that anecdote where it's like, I quit my 9 to 5 so that I could work for myself, but now I'm working like 24. Seven.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, 100.

[A]

That's also true.

[B]

I just thought of that. Anyway, it's, it's really true though. I. One thing I would say is. And I understand because I've had so many, like, maybe not full blown panic attacks, but like over the last five years of just being like, okay, if I don't do this, it's all going to fall apart. Or I have this goal and dream so I need to do XYZ to achieve it. That doesn't happen, then that's not going to happen. Right. There's a huge fear of saying, okay, Lord, I trust you. But we know that oftentimes when we trust God, it's a different direction or different timeline. That's huge. Like, timeline. Like, okay, maybe God has, you know, that income goal or that book deal or that business to open. Maybe that is a part of the plan, but it's just going to take longer than I wanted to. That's a huge aspect of this whole surrender thing. One thing that I will say though is we have such a limited idea of God. I mean, we can know him through scripture and we can know him through time with Him. But what I mean by that is like, I think we play it really small when it comes to God sometimes in our dreams and our ministries, our businesses, or even our families and our goals for our lives. We really don't understand all the time time, how big and how good God is. And the fact that when we let go, it's actually when he has the ability to do the most. I mean, think about like when you have something like say you had like a rock or something in your hand and you're holding these just the tightest fists, white knuckling. How hard is it to get something in there? Okay, Like, I can't even imagine squeezing another rock or another something into. These hands are like white knuckling. And like all the blood is rushing to my fist because I'm like so, so like determined and set on this when you open your hands to God, it's not even necessarily that he might take that rock or that item or whatever's in your hand. It's not even necessarily that he'll take it, but he has the capacity to give you more. This is not a prosperity gospel. This is not saying once you do, God's going to give you all this money and all of you know, all these opportunities. But it does give more room for God to move more freely through your life. Right. So I would just say that. I would just say that God does not. And that especially as a Christian, I'm sure your desires are more in line with the Lord than the world. Right. And so God does recognize that. And so I just think even an example in my life after launching this book, I went through a really intense season of hustling too hard and overworking. And the moment I started to rest more and live more rhythmically again, so counterculturally to what the world will tell you to do. When I started releasing that, I actually saw way more fruit in my life and maybe some things in my business dropped. Yeah, but I got where more time with my family or I have the opportunity to be like to care about my body better and to be more physically fit. Like all these trade offs that may not seem obvious but you will get in return.

[C]

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[C]

I think in what you just said, there is such an element of understanding the character of God, and I think that's when you, when you truly understand the character of God, which, like you said, there is such depth to the Lord that we will be discovering for the entirety of our lives and still barely scratch the surface. Yeah, but, but when we understand more and more the goodness of God and his, you know, plans and intents and purposes in the, in the grand scheme of, you know, know, what does God want in our lives as believers in the, you know, impacting the world? Like, when we actually fully understand the character of God, then when we come to surrender, I think, at least in, in my life, and I, I've seen it in friends and other believers when we really, really struggle to, like, surrender to God, it's because we have a, A, a twisted view of his character.

[B]

Good. Yep. Yep.

[C]

So I think in that, like, as you were talking, I was like, it all just comes down to, like, understanding God.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But I also feel like that kind of ties into, like, time with God. Like, how, how do you understand the character of God?

[A]

You have to understand that his ways are so much better than anything that you could possibly dream up. And I even think, like, I, I, I feel like it's like you are holding tight to this, like, little, tiny, little, like, gemstone, and you're like. Or, yeah, a pebble that you're like, wow, this is the most beautiful pebble on planet Earth. This is mine, and I'm gonna have it, and it's gonna be great or whatever. And, like, meanwhile, you, you don't realize that God has like a ginormous boulder sized diamond sitting in front of you and you just can't see it because you're so focused on this little pebble.

[B]

Fixation in your hand. Yeah. And I think maybe some of it is rewiring what we consider to be that beautiful gemstone. Like, again, like, I think so much of our mind is like, okay, well that, that's, that's more followers, that's more money, that's more things, that's more. All this kind of stuff. But like, we just don't know, I mean, like, what God has for us. And also the metrics of the kingdom are so different, the metrics of the world. So I think that's a huge thing. I mean, you nailed it when it comes to just like knowing God. Because, like, I've known Jesus since I was little and for a lot of my life I just considered him like this big ominous thing in the clouds. And I just, like, didn't know who he really was. And like, I didn't have like that intimacy with his character. And so when things did happen to me in my life, I'm like, oh, like, God must not care. Like, he's like just this mean, huge guy that I don't know very well. So of course I'm not going to trust him. Of course I'm not going to, like, want to give my life to him because I don't know him. But it's also just like reorienting. Like, okay, I need to realize that when I surrender that like, what God gives me may be different, but it's always better. Right. Like, for me, again, there are certain things in my business, like a year or two ago that dropped and when I was pregnant and all these things that like, maybe I, like, had to set down, but, like, the Lord gave me so much other things in return that I'm like, I would never wish away that extra time with my boys or that extra time off or whatever. That looked like, like, God's metrics are so different, but so good.

[C]

Amen.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[C]

I think there's something in that tarot. Would you be willing to touch on? I'm curious if this is the moment, but it feels like it flows beautifully. You have another book coming out, correct?

[B]

I do, yes.

[A]

She's like, thank you for noticing. Like, thank you for mentioning that.

[C]

And it kind of ties in a little bit in the whole concept of like, especially as busy entrepreneurs, like, how do we know the character of God? We spend time with God, right? Well, how do we spend time with God when we are busy? You know, mothers, entrepreneurs, wives. There's a lot of things on our plates. Are you willing to touch on that, even just a little bit? And then we can. We can go back to surrender, but it just feels like the perfect moment.

[B]

No, this is perfect. Yes. So I think this is airing around the time that you guys can pre order the book and hear more about the book and kind of in that season. But the book is called Overbooked and Overwhelmed. And the subtitle is how to keep up with God when you're just trying to keep up with life. And that subtitle more snaps you guys. That subtitle. I'm glad it's resonating. Okay, so that subtitle really just hits to the heart of. We all, as Christians mostly want to spend time with God and thrive, but there are not enough hours in the day. It seems there is not enough time. I'm stressed. I don't know how to do it all again. Comes down to the fact that we're trying to put too much on us. This comes from a season. And I think I've shared the most vulnerably in this book about a season where I totally burnt myself out. Not only in business, in life, but in my faith. When I realized that I had done so much that I just didn't. I was so disoriented. And so it talks. And I think I would encourage you in this. Like, there's a chapter that talks about the presence of God and how often we think that we have to be sitting with, you know, this perfect scenario to spend time with God. And we're waiting for that when often life does not give us that right. Like, I have two boys. I have a newborn that's nursing, like, all the time. I have a toddler that I'm chasing around. I have a business I'm trying to.

[C]

To run.

[B]

Like, for me to say that in this season that I can have an hour dedicated in the Word is not always so realistic. And so there's this huge chapter about presence and about the fact that, like, God is always with us, meaning we can always be with him, but we have to do the work to move things out of the way. It's our perception of God's presence that needs to be reoriented and not God's presence himself. He is always with us, but we need to tear down the idols, the distraction. That's a huge part of this book.

[A]

How.

[B]

How do we stop living so distracted so we can Live more devoted to God. But also, I want people to know in this book, this upcoming book, that like, you don't have to drop the really good things in your life, meaning your family or your business or the things that God has called you to. I mean, Lindsay, you said it earlier, like, this is not a message about living like a monk, you know, and throwing our cell phone in the woods and, you know, just logging out. If that's what God calls you to. Yeah, but this is a message about, like, how do I still keep up with the good things in life, the good God things, and also keep up with him and keep him first. So I'm very excited about it.

[A]

As he goes, I'm like, I'm like, can you give us like a, like a practical. I'm like, like, literally, I love everything you're saying. I'm like, how? How?

[C]

Like one practice, one practical tip.

[A]

Oh, no, maybe that's selfish. You don't have to if you don't want to.

[B]

It's so good. I mean, okay, I'm trying to think. I mean, I think the biggest tip I would give to stop living so overbooked and overwhelmed is there's another chapter and it's all about like fomo. Because I think we all have like this desire to be not only in a social gathering, because I think that's what you think of fomo, but like to like, not miss out on the opportunities and entrepreneurial ideas and like all these, like the conferences and all the things that you should be at and how we need to learn the beauty of also saying no and the God given gift that it is. When you say yes to something, you're saying no to something. When you say no to something, you're also saying yes to something. So even just for example, this last season of my life, I had a lot of opportunities to do certain things, things to travel certain places, and I said no. And at first I can be like, oh, I'm missing out on either the money or the opportunity or the exposure or like, whatever. This looks like the, you know, climbing the ladder with my business. But the yes that I got was being super present with my boys at home and not overworking myself physically because I know I'm prone to do that. So I would just encourage people that feel like I cannot keep up with life. Okay, evaluate what you're saying yes to, but also know that in turn you're saying a no, but that, that's like not a bad thing. Because these limitations that we put on our lives, which honestly, all of us have limitations. Sometimes we just bulldoze past them. But, like, re. Like, reorienting and redefining the fact that no is a really good thing, that your limitations are not limiting. They're actually extremely liberating because you get more of God and you get more of your people. You get more of your real life in front of you. You get more pres. You. You get to live more, like, in your brain. Like, if that makes sense. Like, yeah, when I am so. When I'm so, like, over committed and overbooked, I don't feel as, like, present in my days and in my mind even. So maybe just evaluate, like, what's on your yes and your no list and then just kind of start saying that, like, no is not this bad word. It's actually really good.

[A]

I feel like that's also just so biblical. Like, there's so many, many, many examples in the Bible where God or Jesus depending on, you know, where. But, like, he calls us to slow down. He calls us for. To do less. Like, so, like, I feel like God, especially communing with him, like, happens in the slow. It happens in the quiet. It happens in the. The moments in your day or your week or your season, your month when you allow yourself to stop going from thing to thing to thing to thing to thing. And like. Like, I feel like that actually ties to the surrender conversation of just, like, trying to do it all yourself and be the thing and like, girl boss it and, like, own your story. And I feel like that. That constant hustle and. And frenzy that culture kind of feeds to us that says more and more and more. It's like, okay, I'm gonna own it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna manifest it. All the things. It adds to the busyness of our life. And when we have that busyness, it's like we. We don't even have time to hear from. From God.

[B]

Like, you.

[A]

You don't even have time to slow down enough to even think about anything. Like, I often think of, like, how many moments in my day do I not even allow white space to. Like, you fill it with a podcast. You feel it. Well, ironically, I mean, we. Please keep listening.

[B]

But like.

[A]

But like, you fill it with music, you fill it with, like, you never actually slow down enough to even give God a moment to speak to you. Yeah, because you're trying to.

[B]

The.

[A]

Your two books go hand in hand. Girl, this.

[B]

No, I. I think thing too. Last thing I'll say on this is, my dad taught me this. My dad is so funny. He's like this humble farmer. He's like, I've never gone to theology school, you know, I don't really know much about God. Yeah, he's taught me the most about God. He is a hazelnut farmer. He loves God. He's hated him so much. But one thing he's taught us about, you know, about this idea of like, still like holding your business, you know, those listening or being a wife or mom, whatever you're doing and holding that time with God is. He told me, he taught me this, just this, this idea so simple, so profound about like starting a phone call with God in the morning and hanging up when you go to bed. But like not hanging up anytime between that. So, like, that may look like you're washing dishes or you're responding to emails and you're like talking to God. Like even just like this, for example, like, I'm like, say I'm like typing an email. Obviously, like, not when we're talking right now because I'm present right now. But like when you're typing an email or doing something, be like, lord, I'm really struggling with this today. Help me with that. That's all you have to say. Okay? Like, go about your day. Like just talking to him and almost these whisper prayers where you don't hang up the conversation with him. That is spending time in God's presence too. Like, do not discount those moments. It also shows that we're dependent on God, which comes back to this surrender conversation where we're not. Like, I gotta bust through these emails and hit these goals and, you know, you know, make my kids this beautiful lunch and, you know, stay on top of all these things, like by myself self. It keeps us really tethered when we're constantly talking to God. But it doesn't have to be like these on my knees prayers that I pray for 45 minutes. It can be these whisper prayers. Start the phone call in the morning, hang up when you go to sleep, start over the next day. Like, that has changed my life.

[A]

My practical brain is loving that analogy. I'm like, oh, yes, a phone call. But it's so visual. And you can. Like, that makes so much sense. It's not just like, I'm going to pray once a day and I'm going to say, hello, God, I don't know what. But it's like, like, literally. And I don't know why that came out, but it is a conversation.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I'm even there. There are two things which I just like throwing out there. And I hope I'm, like, adding on to what you're saying, Tara, but I could also, like, I don't want anyone to think that I'm, like, critiquing what Tara said by saying this. So it's not at all. I'm like, I agree with this, so fully.

[B]

Go for it.

[C]

But even, like, when you were like, obviously not right now, like, while we're talking, and I'm like, I can't tell you the amount of times I've been on a podcast. And I just, like, desperate Hail Mary prayer, basically, like, going up to God, being like, God, give me the words.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because I'm like, I. I, you know, my mind, which I know you would agree with, which is why I was like, I'm not critiquing or correcting what you're saying.

[B]

I know you so good.

[C]

I can so see you, like, agreeing with that. But even things like that, you know, in an interview right now with you, Tara, like, I have had a moment of asking God, like, God, what question, what direction do you want me to go with this? And it's something as simple as, like, I just throw that up. And I know that, like, he's going to give a thought in my mind or clarity in my mind, and it's just like inviting him into every little thing. And then something in addition with what you said that my parents taught me growing up was to invite the Lord into even our sleep. Because there. There are so many scriptures about God ministering to us in. In the sleep and, you know, minutes. His spirit ministering to our spirit even as we are not mentally, like, consciously, like, praying or in, you know, communing with God. Like, there's so much power even in as we sleep. So that's something that my par encouraged me in.

[A]

So maybe we don't hang up when we go to sleep. We. We put ourselves on mute.

[B]

So that God can, like, talk to us, but we're not.

[C]

Yeah. I don't know. I've had good. I've had such, like, powerful encounters with God.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

In my sleep that, like, I've woken up and felt like, oh, my gosh, I have an answer. And I. I, like, I didn't. I wasn't, you know, pressing in and.

[A]

You were on mute.

[C]

Yeah, I was. I was just there. He was just speaking. So even that, like, something that my parents taught me that has blessed and, like, me so much through my life that I was like, I want to throw that in because I agree with the analogy of, like, when we're conscious. It's like a phone call. We're chatting, but there's also an element, like you said. Maybe just press the mute button and leave the phone on.

[B]

Let's add this as an addendum to the conversation. Okay. Love it.

[C]

Just press mute. God can still speak to you through the night. Like, I promise.

[B]

Wait.

[A]

I love this.

[C]

So good.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

Okay, I've been biting at the bit to bring this up. I'm just going to do it now. I want to know your thoughts on manifestation, especially in the conversation of surrender. Especially in the conversation. Conversation to business owners. I feel like. I mean, we are in, like, the girl boss type of industry. Like, we definitely have had moments of, like, hustle and, like, I would say healthy hustle, where it's like you're pursuing.

[C]

Something that God set before you that requires a tighter timeline and a little more work.

[A]

Right, right.

[C]

Harvest season, if you will.

[A]

Yeah, that's good. That's a great way to say it, but I think when you get into, like, the business mindset of, like, okay, I have this business goal and, like, we've had episodes or an episode on the past of this where there is truth in, like, working hard for something and, like, seeing it through and, like, the harder you work and, like, when you, you know, do something to the glory and the excellence of God, like, I believe, like, that will produce fruit in some way. But I feel like manifestation is almost, in my opinion, putting the lens on yourself as the power bringer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Versus. I would just love your thoughts on just like. Yeah, like, manifesting or just, like, the phrases that people use of, like, you own your own destiny. Or, like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's up to you, girl. Like, go within. Okay, I'll stop talking.

[B]

No, like, those are all very real. No, those are so real. I. When I think it was, like, right before the book came out a couple years ago, I saw this Instagram reel. It had, like, 25 million views and, like, 1 million likes. Like, so obviously it had gone viral like crazy. And the girl was saying, I don't even know who she was. But it's just. It caught my attention because she said, you are the creator of your destiny. It's just, like, kept going on. I'm like. I'm like, 25 million people have seen this. Okay.

[A]

I mean, it sounds good.

[B]

Like this. Yeah, I mean, it sounds good, right? You nailed it, though, Lindsay. You said a healthy hustle. Like, a healthy way to girl boss. Because I'm not saying. Again, like, I think I talked about this, but nothing Wrong with working hard. And I. And honestly, like, I would say, like, we are all girl bosses, okay? But what I mean by that is people that are working hard and, like, staying in our lanes with God. So this idea of manifesting is. I mean, what it really comes down to is thinking that we are the ones that are in control. And it's us thinking that, like, that life is a guarantee or that my, like, financial goals or my business goals or even my goals for having kids or whatever that looks like, like, that it's a guarantee. And that is such a dicey place to live and to stay. Because we know that not anything is a guarantee in this life. Right? And when we do, it becomes, like you said very much about us. And we don't leave room for God in the equation because, yeah, maybe God does want us to do this, but where is he in that mix? We're not staying surrendered. And so I really think the secular and honestly, just manifestation in general is such a joke. It is really, I mean, honestly think that sometimes people can see results from what they think is manifestation. But bottom line is that us just wishing and putting something out into the universe that something is going to happen is not because of us. Right. There's a whole spiritual element and a spiritual realm element to that that we, like, don't have to go into. But really, I think manifestation is so damaging. I've fallen into it myself as a Christian, thinking that I'm the one in charge. But I think I would say, and I was going to say this earlier, but if you feel were like, Tara, you know, I don't really feel like I have a control problem. I don't really feel like I have a manifestation problem. I'm a Christian, you know, I know it's all wrong. I would ask you to be very honest with yourself and ask, when something does not go the way that I want it to, how do I respond? Okay. Because if it is in distrust of God, if it's in anger, I'm not saying that you're a horrible person because those are real feelings. But that does show us something, that maybe we need to bring in a little more surrender. Maybe we need to bring in a little more trust of God. Maybe we need to get to know his character more. Because again, very real feelings, those happen to me all the time. But what do I do with them? Because then that might show that I have a control problem or that I've been trying to manifest my way and I have not been including God in these plans.

[C]

Yeah, that's so good. I think we actually, we've done an entire podcast episode on manifestation.

[A]

I think it was called why Manifestation misses the Mark.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

We love alliteration. Yeah.

[C]

But there's, like you said, there's a whole spiritual side of things, which as believers, I would genuinely encourage you to dig into scripture, maybe go listen to that episode that we've had, but dig into scripture of what God says about our thoughts and our words, because there is scriptural, like you're saying, the whole spiritual process of speaking life and like, the power that is in our own words and thoughts and like, not speaking, like, death over, you know, our businesses being like, I'm never gonna make it over and over and over, like the power that.

[A]

There's power of life and death in the tongue.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What's the.

[C]

There's life and death is in the power of the tongue.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

That's like, there is. There's so much scripture that I. We.

[A]

We.

[C]

We believe. And this is like the Cliff Notes spoiler of the. The podcast episode is that manifestation, in our opinion, in the cultural secular world, and I'm sure, Terry, you find fully agree with this is like the enemy's twisting of God's design for our, like, walk with him and like, you know, like, our. Our partnership with him in that we do have, like, we could be speaking death over our businesses or over our marriage or whatever, over and over and over. And that does allow access, you know, for the enemy or whatever. So there is an element of like, hey, if God has put this dream, you know, like, put it in front of you, what God has called you to, like, and. And speak life over it, like God, I. I pray that you would bring, you know, this to pass in your timing, in your way. I surrender to you and what you're saying, you know, whatever. And to be like, I know you will bring, you know, blessings, whatever that looks like to me and my family, like you're saying, you know, surrendering the idea. Yeah, yeah, but it's one of those things too, where it's manifestation is there's.

[A]

It's completely taking God out of the equation.

[C]

Yeah. It's so close because there is spiritual, like, there's go. Biblical basis for what the world took and twisted, but when you walk in it, especially in the world's realm, it completely removes God from everything.

[B]

Well, I mean, it's. It just comes back to the beginning. And I say this in the book too. In Surrender, your story that, like, the enemy used that with Adam and Eve. He said, did God really say okay. And then so he. He made Adam and Eve, or Eve first question God's word. Okay. And make Eve think that God misspoke or that he's not trustworthy. And then the next thing he said was that you be like, go. And so I talk about this, too. Whereas, like, this idea of manifestation totally takes him out of the equation and puts ourselves on the pedestal on the throne. Because I'm in control. That's where it's very, very damaging. And I wouldn't even say that there's a healthy way of manifestation. There is just. It's completely different, where we just work hard and faithfully. And stewardship. I think stewardship is a better word. But, yeah, it just literally all comes back to the garden and the fact that the enemy just wants us to question God's word, and the enemy wants us to replace God on the throne and be like, you can do this. You don't need him. Yeah.

[A]

I think. I think I. I might have heard this from Ali Beth Stuckie. I think that. I don't know if I'm citing my sources correctly, but I think she said a quote or maybe she wrote this. I'm not sure where you can't be the problem and the solution, like, both. Like. Like, in the sense of, like, if.

[C]

If we.

[A]

Again, if we're, like, pretending like we're in the world right now and what we are, but, like, you get it. Like, if we're believing what the world believes about, like, manifestation, New Age, all that. All that stuff we. Where it's like, oh, I. Things aren't working in my. In my life. I'm depressed or things, you know, I'm. I'm. Something's wrong, and I'm going to manifest it myself. It's like, well, if something's wrong with your mindset or with your current circumstances or whatever, how can. How can you be the problem, but then you find the solution within yourself also? Like, that doesn't make sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, no, the solution is outside of yourself. And I don't think people.

[C]

And we're so puny compared to God. When we think about, like, us trying to fix everything. I'm like, lol.

[A]

Sad.

[B]

That's amazing.

[C]

Oh, my gosh. I love it so much. Okay, Tara, kind of wrapping up for. For the listeners today who are just like, man, this. This spoke to me. This kind of shook me up in a good way. This. This gave me. This convicted me, encouraged me, inspired me, whatever. What would you say is like, hey, here's the one thing I Would walk away from this episode and do like, I know that's very hard in a hour long conversation to be like, hey, trim it down to one next step for our listener. But I would love to hear if you have a thought there.

[B]

Gosh, yeah. I mean, said so much. But I think, I think the like, very practical thing that I would tell you. Cause I think we all have planners. I think we, whether it's physical or whether it's on our phone, I think a lot of people, at least that listen to this are very type A, just very go getter. I would say to leave margin in your schedule, and I don't even necessarily mean like that you have to have like a complete hour or two. Because I know there's not very. There's not a lot of time in the day. You know, we have other responsibilities. We have probably kids and you know, social things to do. There's a lot of things that we have to put on our plate. I would say though, to start the practice of leaving a little bit of margin. And what I mean by that is that way God can come in and show you not only more of him, that presence conversation, but that way you're not like. It's a very practical practice that I've been doing to remind myself that like, I'm not God and that like, I don't have to do all the things and that I don't need to like overwork and burn myself out. And it's also just a humbling reality because sometimes when I fill everything up and I don't leave any margin, it kind of leads me into pride thinking that I can do it all. And it reminds me or like it tempts me to not depend on God. So I don't know what that looks like for you, but I would challenge you to leave margin. Even if that's like 10 minutes of breathing space. To leave margin and kind of like physically relax your shoulders, unclench your jaw, but also like leave that as a moment to be like, okay, Lord, like, I'm laying it down, I'm relaying it down. Like I need to like pause and do that. Maybe something practical. I don't know.

[C]

That's so good.

[A]

We love it.

[B]

For me, I don't know.

[C]

I love it.

[A]

Kara, you are an author. We love reading. We love asking people this question.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

Do you have a favorite book that you've read recently that you. We just selfishly like to ask this question because we want to add to our list of books to read. But we also know Our listeners.

[C]

Other than yours. Because other than yours, obviously yours are the fully pitched. But in addition, is there anything else that you have absolutely loved reading lately? It can be anything. Fiction, nonfiction, whatever.

[B]

I wish I was a fiction person. I just am not.

[A]

That's fine.

[B]

Valid. But I would say if you guys want, like, like, very encouraging, but also, like, not too hard of a read books, I'll give you two number one habits of the household for any parents listening. One of the best books by Justin. So early. You guys are nodding. Literally one of the best, best books I've ever read in my entire life. I just read that about practicing parenting. So good. Okay. And then the next one that I just finished is called Blessed are the Spiraling that just came out by Levi Lusko. So good. You ever feel like you cannot stop the spiral of negative thoughts or anxiety or stress or any of that stuff? It's so good. And I just listened to a podcast episode that he was on, and he's like, I've been complimented that, like, even though I'm a guy, I know speak to women. And, like, it's very true because some guys don't know how to do that. And so it's really good if you're like, I can't read, like, male authors as a female. Super, super good. So those are the two.

[C]

Amazing, amazing. Okay. And then, Tara, you. I know we kind of touched on this a little bit, but you have something else coming out in 2025, right? You have another book coming out. Are you willing to, like, share, I guess share both titles, but especially, like, the new one that's coming out, very.

[A]

Experienced and where people can either buy the current one or pre order the forward one. That. That doesn't make sense.

[B]

You get it? I get it. Well, I'm so grateful you'd even give me the space to share. I'm so, so, so grateful. But yes. So Surrender, your story is anywhere you can get books. It's been out, it's out. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, all the places you can also go to surrenderyourstory.com and we have some journaling questions and some freebies and stuff like that there. And then the second book, it comes out August 5th of this year, is called Overbooked and Overwhelmed. And if this is coming out, like, summer ish, July ish, you can pre order right now. You can go to Amazon and pre order anywhere that you love to pre order books. Yeah. Super excited. Amazing.

[C]

Tara, you are a joy. Thank you so much for just coming on and sharing. Just so much wisdom. And your experiences and such a powerful, like, life changing principle that we all need reminders of, no matter if this is our first time hearing it or our hundredth time hearing it. Like, we need this regularly. So thank you for coming on and bringing it today.

[B]

Thank you, friends. This is like some of the most fun I've had on a podcast, so thank you so much.

[A]

We aim to have fun while also going deep into theology and life.

[B]

It was all the things. It was all the things. Thanks, friends. I love it.